Why successful law firms hit the ceiling with Mike Zappone

(upbeat music) - Hey, hey, welcome back to the Lead Council podcast, your host, Antonia. I am here with one of my favorite people in the world. Mike's a pony, what's going on, buddy? - What's up, how are you? - I'm good, man, I'm good. So, I had the epiphany, friend, but let's listen to this. I had the epiphany that Mike is such a wealth of knowledge. I approached him about doing a series, an eight-part series about the work I'm doing with him, both surrounding EOS and the journey that I've been on coupled with where we're at together. I thought it'd be great intro for people, I think I posted on LinkedIn today, Mike, I'm sure you saw it, which is, this thing will help people if they're at 100 grand or if they're at 30, 40 million, right? And by this thing, I mean the series that we're doing, but also EOS, obviously EOS is not gonna be something for somebody at $100,000, but the principles are, right? So if anybody's, I see behind you, Gino's book, right? It's all based on traction. And so that's the why behind me kind of stalking Mike to get him on the podcast for eight weeks in a row. You know what, it's interesting because, you know, you talk about the books and obviously the book traction is the one that started all of this stuff, but I've read so many great business books, like Good to Great Jim Collins, like an amazing book, The E-Meth is one of my favorite books. And I don't know, maybe I just didn't have enough bandwidth or I'm not smart enough to figure it out, but I read those books, I'm inspired, but what do you do? Like, I've got to have the right people in the right seats. I don't know how to do it. And I think that's what I love what Gino did is he actually distilled down all this information and gave us a way to execute and to get things done. So when you read some of these, you know, theory constraints or any of the wonderful information that's out there, this is all just a way to make it happen. And so I think that's what gets me really excited about this. Plus I've made all the mistakes in the book. Well, that's what I was going to say. Like, just as by way of introduction to people, I have been using coaches and consultants for a north of 20 plus years. The one difference that I can say with Mike among all of them is that he's done the thing, right? Without giving too much away, he's an entrepreneur that exited to private equity. I don't know too many people that can say that. And then, you know, like he just said, he's made the mistakes. So one of the things that Mike and I are doing together is, you know, he's helping me break plateaus, right? And he sees things I don't see because he's been there already. So that's one of the reasons why I love working with you, Mike, is kind of, you have the experience that is depth beyond theory, right? And so for me, especially at the point that I'm at, that's been invaluable. So thank you for that. Yeah, it's so much easier to see when you're outside. Like when I was in the box, you know, I didn't know what, you know, I didn't know what hitting the ceiling was. I didn't know any of this stuff because you're just, you know, complexity just breeds around you. I always use the example and I'm talking to clients. When you go on vacation and you come home, you notice your landscaping's off. You notice the house needs to be picked. You see things in a different light. And for me, it's just, I'm on the outside looking in. So it's clear as day. So, you know, it's a different perspective when you're on the outside versus when you're in the box. Yeah, and as somebody who's facilitated groups in the past, and Bill Eumansky and I talk about this all the time, you know Bill, but it's so much easier for us to see what's going on in other people's businesses. But then in our own lake, that's where I got to call him on a Saturday or you and say, "Hey, what am I missing?" 'Cause we're just too close to it, right? We're just, it's literally at the edge of our nose. I know most people listen to this on audio. I'm literally holding my hand in front of my nose. And so you have the ability to step back and bring me back, right? And it go holy crap. Like it was right there all the time. So you mentioned hitting the ceiling, that's the theme of this podcast, which is why successful law firms hit the ceiling. So I thought it was apropos one, because that was what kind of led me to my work with you, right? And so let's kind of dig in with, you know, defining for people what is a ceiling? What does it look like to you? 'Cause you see so many businesses behind the scene. Yeah, and it's funny, I don't know that people actually realize that they've hit a ceiling. They're just, you know, you started out, you were the guy that was gonna outwork everybody else, you know, your brute force just would blast through all these barriers. So nothing would stop you until it did, right? Until you became the roadblock. And so, you know, it's funny how your superpower becomes your kryptonite. So, you know, at some point, you were the guy, you've just tried everything and it's, there's these invisible levels, and I don't know why, but, you know, look, zero to a million is pretty easy. You know, a million to five million, it's another random. You know, five to 10, it's a beast, you know, 10 to 20, 20 to 100, it's a whole other planet. Like, there's challenges that you never even imagined. And so, when the things that made you successful, and it's the hardest thing to tell somebody, it's like, Tom, everything that got you here is going to hold you back in the future. And it's like, you know, it's counterintuitive when I'm saying that to you. You're like, what are you talking about? I'm like, look, you're in the way. You become the bottleneck. You've got everything going through you. You've got to let people grow and, you know, how you show up in meetings and how you show up. And I'm not saying you to you, but how leaders show up, right? You can, you can, I suffer from it. I can't, you can't. Yeah, I don't mind picking me, but, but even, you know, and I didn't realize this in myself. So, when I show up, I'm a lot of energy, right? I'm a hyper guy, and I'm passionate about this. I really love business, and I love, you know, I love the challenge of success. And so, when I show up, that causes other people to step back. And so, all I'm doing is I'm getting the Misho. The Misho is only so good, right? So, after a while, you need the Misho. And so, it's really interesting to see how that happens. And it's that transition from being an entrepreneur to building an organization. And those are two separate things. You're an entrepreneur, you've got a side gig, you're a solo entrepreneur, you're doing your thing. You know, you've got a couple of people around you. You're not an organization yet to become an organization, right? You need to be able to break through those ceilings. And, by the way, to depression a little bit further, sometimes a whole company hits a ceiling. Sometimes it's just you, sometimes it's a department, right? So, you could hit the ceiling in a hundred different ways. And, you know, the first thing we do when we get into EOS in the focus days, we go through the five leadership abilities that are going to cause you to break through the ceiling, right? So, you get a lean in, like, root out that complexity that we're talking about, because it exists everywhere. And it just grows around you. And you don't see it because you're, you know, you're in it every single day. You know, we use the model of, you know, when you started, you have two people, like two lines of communication. Add a third person to the mix. You know, complexity explodes. Just one more person. You've got a 200% increase in complexity. Add a fourth person to the mix. So, 100% increase in staff. You've got a 500% increase in complexity. All those lines of communication going back and forth. So, it's just, like, simplifying things is number one. And there's so many things that we do to try to shine that light back on people, like, hey, take a look. Every single road is leading back to you. You are answering every question. We're in an L10 meeting. And it's like, I may as well be having, it's me and the visionary. You know, like, there's six other people in the room, but none of them are talking. That's not good. So, I know you have a process for how you start that growth, right, because I think it really comes down to, is the visionary. You know, I hate that terminology, but I'm going to use it because it's EOS and I'm strict EOS. But is the visionary kind of the focal point? And it's funny because now that I've been through that process with you, right, you had a really interesting way of doing it. First, you were like, show up to the meeting, but mute yourself, then you were like, all right, show up to meeting, be the last speak, and then don't show up to the meet, right? Like, I don't have to be at every meeting, but what was interesting, and I think I wrote you yesterday about it, was holy cow, the people on my leadership team are doing a sophisticated financial analysis of profitability that a year ago, I was the guy that did all of it, right? Like, and people that weren't doing that before. So I just, the process has been awesome. I think I called you yesterday, I was like, Mike, I'm in the matrix. I see everything happening at warp speed, but it's slowing down, it was kind of crazy, but give people an idea of how to spot a ceiling. And like for me personally, it was a revenue ceiling. I could not break that ceiling. I'm squally positioned heading to eight figures. I'm squally positioned to hit that midway point shortly, but I mean, I just kept hitting that ceiling. So, but what are the ways can it manifest? It's funny, it shows up in a hundred different ways, right? So it's not just, you know, revenues won. Just nothing seems to be working, or the biggest one is the dependency. Like, if you stepped away for 30 days, what's the first thing that's gonna break, right? So this is how you know, like you've got, you know, you're stuck, you're in a situation where this is not an organization, it's just you. So, and again, it's kind of going back to, you know, you're a talented law firm, you're out working everybody else. You solve problems, you did all these things, right? It's teaching you the behavior from zero to a million, or two million, or three million, whatever that number is, that behavior that was taught needs to be on my own, because now you're showing up, and you're the first guy to solve the problem. Like somebody has something you like put on your cape, like, yeah, I got this, I could solve that. when you're in the hospital. to let your team actually start to answer. It's like amazing what they see. And you start looking around and, you know, the example you just put out, I mean, your team is doing some amazing work right now. And it's really impressive. Like, they're bringing things back that I never thought about, I don't know if you have thought about them, but like, it's really, and that's what, that's the magic, right? That is the magic. Yeah, 100%, 100%, and I think you said something earlier that triggered a response to me, which was the, getting to a million was easy. Getting to two million, getting to three million was easy. Then I hit the ceiling, heading to five. And I was like, dude, what am I doing? Like, I can't. And so when you feel that urge as the owner to apply more force, that's the emotional signal. 'Cause you feel fear, you feel inadequate. And like, so four people listening to this, everybody hit ceilings. I don't care if you're at 100, if you're at five million, 10 million, I know some pretty ego-driven law firm owners are like, well, I'm doing seven million. And they're literally one bad employee quitting away from complete catastrophe. I can see it. I can see 'cause there's no redundancy and it's all reliant on that leader. They just happen to be a seven instead of four. You know what I mean? And it's funny, you mentioned revenue. And when I sit down, one of the things we do is we're like, what do you want out of this business? 'Cause EOS is, we'll get you what you want out of your business. And not everybody wants the same thing. So, you know, and as you sit down with the client, they're like, well, we want to be, everybody always picks like round numbers. I want to be a 10 million dollar company. I want to be a 20 million dollar company. I want to be a 100 million dollar company. And then I, I pressure test them. I'm like, okay, do you want to be a 100 million dollar company or prepare to have a C suite? And all these are the things to go with a 100 million dollar company. Does that sound exciting to you? Do you, or do you like a company that just spins off a lot of profit and you could put your arms around? Do you want something that you could take, you know, three weeks off and not have to worry about checking your email or picking up a phone call. Like, everybody wants something different. So if you're a conqueror, that's great. And you want to run to a 100 million dollar beyond good for you. Take good, take over the world. Like that's, it's what's going to drag you out of bed, what's going to drive you. And it's not always about, you know, building that top line revenue. So sometimes like a really profitable $5 million business. That's a really nice business, you know. Give me a $5 million business spins off a million dollars a year. Take that all day long, right? That's a nice one. And, you know, you brought up something that I would tell anybody, if you really want to pressure test your business, take off a minimum of two weeks to a month. It's something that I've been doing for, my daughter is going to be 16. So I've been doing it for the last 13 years. And the funny part is, yes, I was at a ceiling, but because I had built it a certain way, with certain people, it still ran without me, right? Where my frustration came and, dude, I was trying to think this morning, how do you and I even reconnect that we've like, became thickest thieves, but where my frustration, I just couldn't take it anymore was, you know, hearing over and over again, why am I stuck, right? The question kept getting posed to me from friends of mine. Why are you stuck when you easily conspotted in everybody else? And I was like, I need somebody from the outside and that turned out to be you. So, you know, and I think, you know, if I can lean on a line that I said that I think you told me haunted you is that you are on the bleeding edge of everything, you're so, you know, there's inspiration and then there's perspiration. And you just had so much inspiration. You got all these great cutting-edge technology, like you had all this crazy stuff in place, you know, and now we just got to jump in and execute. And so it's really, I find that, you know, depending on the client, it's like, do we need inspiration or do we need perspiration? And a lot of time, it's just, look, we just got to put our heads down and get some stuff done. Sometimes you need to be inspired. And that's, you know, it's a different engagement, but you know, it's really easy for me again, working with you because you have all the pieces in place. So we just, I just saw from the outside, like, hey, Tom, let's, you know, we got to make these two moves. And listen, you were clear too. You were like, it's all about execution. You've got the right people. You've got, I mean, now right now applying all the pure principles of VOS, I do see what traction looks like, right? People, processes, profitability, all of it. And it's like, and so once I was able to get on stock, it all just starts happening in sequence, in sequence, in sequence. It's kind of crazy to just be a part of it. So Mike, really quick, you brought up simplicity, and I know you work with a ton of law firms, and I know that lawyers can be their own worst enemy because we tend to overthink, right? So when you ask for solution, one of the practices I've done is, that seems pretty complex. What can I do to simplify that? But like, do you see where lawyers, especially if they have visionaries in a firm, get stuck in complexity of their own making? Yeah, so I found that the smarter the client, the more complex the solutions are. And to them, it's like, you know, all the way, I've come up with this really elegant, complex solution. And so I'm always challenging, like, we need to dumb this down, how many moving parts do we have to have? Like, let's think about simplicity at a time. So you have to realize you're either somebody who naturally makes things more complex. You're going to come up with really creative solutions, but they're going to be really complex, or you're going to be a natural simplifier. You're just somebody who's like, hey, I can do this in this. And again, I always lean in on this, getting those two people in a room, somebody who comes up with a complex solution, somebody who comes up with a simple one, that's where the magic happens. Give me that friction. And between the two of them, we find like the beautiful, 'cause one might be too simple, one's going to be too complex, right? So I might be the too simple guy, right? Like, as you're saying it, I'm like, I might be the too simple guy because now I've got Louisa who she thinks in a way, my brain just doesn't work. She's so detailed or at this so process driven. And so yeah, I might be the too simple guy now that you say it that way. You know, and it's funny to pick on Louisa for a second, she's so smart, she's so bright. And you know, when you and I are a lot of like, which is why I think we get along, but as you are communicating, like she's processing that information, she's formulating her response and you know, I'm always like, Louisa, what is it, just say it? And then when she does, it's like she just drops the mic. She's, you know, she's brilliant. Right, yeah. But I've learned like where also you have to grow is you got to give people space to process and communicate the way they do. To Louisa taught me that, right? Like I like a needy at first, communication answered by the, and she needs 24, 48 hours, but when she comes back dude, it is drop the mic. It is like problem solved. Let's move on. So, you know, and it's a lot like, I go to the animal world, like, you know, so people that have dogs, you know, there's, if you have a dog, there's always got to be a pack leader and either you're the pack leader, or your dog's a pack leader in the house. And sometimes if you get an anxious dog and there is no pack leader, they'll fill that position and they're not comfortable with it. And the same is true for what we do. So letting people show up the way they need to. So not everybody has to be in each sheet. So, you know, let them sit there and as much as, you know, for me, when I was running my company, I had this, we had this red-green yellow system on our doors. And for me, it was like, look, come in my office, say what you need to say in three words or less. And if I have to ask you questions, I will. Now that's me being, I'm a jerk, right? But other people, if I didn't ask them how their weekend was before I gave them a deliverable, they really just shut down on it. So, it was like, communication, the most basic thing we do is so, so hard. You know, you have to know how to people consume. I have to tell you, at 58, I'm going back to basics. Like, I'm focusing on communication, mindset, all the basic fundamental stuff. That's really what I'm studying these days. Like, really working on it because Luisa told me that lesson and I was like, she's about the best leader I've ever seen. And when I look at the team, she built and how she communicates with them. It's amazing. It's nothing short of amazing. So, but again, just really quick, for people listening to this, I had an analogy, if you're a law firm owner, picture you crawl breaks down on the side of the road, you got a flat. There's two answers. One, you get out rubber, you melt it, you start to make the tire. That's an answer, pretty complex. Or you get the spare out of the back of the trunk and you put it on and it takes you 10 minutes. So, like, the simplest answers are almost always the right answer, right? And you taught me the value of simplicity. And now, my initial reaction is to write down variables that are solutions to issues and pick the simplest one. And listen, 90% of the time right now, the team is solving all the issues. I'm not, they're not even telling me the issues anymore. Like, it's kind of crazy. You know, and it's funny because what happens with honors is you build your, just to me, you get this team around you. And then all of a sudden you feel like, well, now I'm useless because you really love showing up and it worked with two swords and putting out the pliers. And now there's this calm and that calm is really unnerving. And so, the idea is not to make you unnecessary. It's just to make you unnecessary for things that are well beyond, like, you know, the 1.25. Like, are you giving 1.25 value to your company, right? Are you doing things, are you getting the mail or doing things you shouldn't be doing at your pay grade, right? So, are you applying the most important things to the company or rocks and all those scenarios? So, a lot of times as you're going through this, the owner's the mental shift is, well, now I'm bored. You know, now I don't have anything to do. There are no problems. This is, I don't like it. And so, you just got to re-shift like, okay, well, what could you be doing that would really, you know, move this thing forward? So, I'd love to answer that question, right? So, as we started this transitional process with me, you know, one of the symptoms that I realized, As we were adding people without structure and we were adding people without really analyzing the accountability chart And what the business needed to function and so we had a lot of bloat, you know for lack of a better word And so since the process started we went from 24 people I think we're down to 15 now and then our overseas team We're at about six versus twelve right because we just simplified what are the top three to five functions for each C And how many seats do you really need when you're at a certain level, right? You know it's that accountability chart just finds that that you know first off It's the Henry Ford model right took him 12 weeks to make a car or whatever was and then they did the assembly line They're doing it in 90 minutes and when you instead of you doing everything you just focus on what you're doing You're gonna be really really great at it and you're gonna be able to do it a lot quicker a lot more efficient You know that's I love the accountability chart But you know on the on the communication side of things I wanted to call out because I think you did a great job at your At your vision, you know, so we went through your VTO and of course I I don't hold back with you killed me You killed me I spent eight days eight hours a day 64 hours Doing that wait did I do the math right yet 64 hours, but was it worthwhile or no? It was well worthwhile because for the first time everything became crystal clear and I spent Eight hours each day with just noise canceling headphones. That's how I function and everybody knows that I've talked about before and it was Kind of game-changing honestly actually it was life-changing for me because for the first time I had clarity of vision Clarity for the future right clarity at the accountability chart level right like what was working? What wasn't working? You know again, it's that thing, you know what when we ask people like what do you want out of your business? You know, where's this thing gonna go most people by the time they get to me they already have what they want like look I wanted something that was gonna generate revenue I wanted something that was you know going to do X Y and Z That's already in place. So now it's like version 2.0. It's almost like you're 18 years old getting out of high school again It's like what do you want to be when you grow up and and we're asking that question again and and that vision when it's passionate like yours is It's a driving factor it resonates with all of your people let your people come alive And they're like wow, this is something I want to be a part of like they're showing up at work not just for a paycheck But to to move the cause forward right that's that's where the magic really happens Yeah, I got to tell you I mean I read the kind of state of the firm for the first time since redoing the VTO and it's an entire new team And people were visibly emotional myself included like I had to take couple of pauses in between because it brought to life the driving vision that I've had for you know 58 years that I'm alive and I never got there before right? You know you do it you dial it in or you do it and you made me keep going back and going back and redoing it until I got it to the point that it's that now And I would tell people as you're listening to this different words become the vibe of the day right like in all circle Right and you acconstration right now is primarily law firms, right? Yeah, 90% of my clients are law firms. Yeah, that's awesome That's all I love that because dude listen, I would tell anybody when you're ready for EOS they got to meet with you because you just You do things different like it's just a different thing with you. So, you know, I will tell anybody the following is a good mindset check If you think you've got it dialed in because that's the big thing in all world people talk about culture like I got culture dialed in I said it. I did the same thing people. I got people dialed in My dad I my dad is never my scorecards. I've never looked like they look now and what's happened without me doing anything else Is seat by seat accountability? Right, so somebody posted on one of the Facebook groups. I'm in, you know, I hate doing end of the year reviews It sucks and my answer was one quarterly conversations were great and if you a score cards are right They do the job for you because people know if they're winning they're not winning and they may self-select out if they're not It shouldn't be a secret, you know, and it's funny during our mastermind, you know, that we went around the table nine law firm owners in the room And they're like oh, yeah, you know, my vision's good or my, you know, this is good and you know, I said okay guys let me tie what no strings attached Let me pressure test your vision. I zero take-ops on that by the way everybody went back and said okay Well, I'm gonna lean in on making sure my vision is communicated a little bit more and my scorecard is strong and so I got to describe it I got to describe our first meeting so We're doing our first quarterly meeting Mike comes in and it's like mayhem all hell's breaking loose Everybody walks out of the room Emotional not positive emotion most of them and I realized I had the epiphany as I was walking out and drive at home And I'm sitting with these emotions. I'm like it was just pressure testing us Right, he was making sure that not only is the vision the vision, but that it's we're rolling alignment as a leadership team and all of that And the funny thing is is that it produced exactly what it was supposed to the leadership team had some turnover Positive turnover positive for everybody involved like it's always positive if they can go on to what's their best calling, right? So, you know to me that was Significant and I love the process because right after pressure testing comes the rebuild right now We're in the phase where we're getting to like really experience what comes next, you know I use a racing analogy. I you know raised cars my son did go carts and cars and and so one of the things on road racing is You have to find the latest point to hit the brakes before you get into the turn right to carry the maximum amount of speed through the turns You can you know hug your fastest lap time if I'm breaking out of thousand yards before the turn and the breaking points at 50 yards And I'm incrementally adding 50 yards 50 yards 50 yards. It's gonna take me forever to learn that you know To get fast and so when I came in with you when I started with a client We start you know with a fresh EOS implementation We're starting with a focus day and we're going through with you We jumped in on a quarterly and so we had to find where is that threshold and we need to get There as fast as we possibly can because it can't take us six months or two years to get there We need to be there in a day and so that's what I you know the kind of the analogy I use when I come in and do a pressure Just like that. It's like look guys by the end of the day We got to know exactly where we are because times are most valuable asset and you know My heart I'm competitive guy. I've never been competitive in sports or anything else But in business, you know when you win I win I ride the wave with you I think you know that yeah, yeah, of course, of course. I'd look. I think that it did exactly what it was supposed to do It had the desired outcomes and it really forced us to get better clearer all of it So, you know, I would say to anybody listen to this you may not have hit a ceiling yet But if you're at seven and you want to go to 14 it's coming right if you're at one and you want to go to three It's coming so you know very often I found myself showing up at leadership team meetings Saying why am I the one supplying all the answers, right? Why am I the one fixing everything? And that to me was the biggest symptom one of the biggest symptoms So what Mike? What would you say for to an owner who's like Mike? I would delegate more if people would just step off They're not stepping up like because that was me right and that I don't know that that's necessarily fair was I letting them step off That's a different thing Yeah, so so two things you said I want to lean on number one is that if you're in a growing organization It's not if I hit the ceiling. It's when so everyone's gonna hit the ceiling We're gonna hit another ceiling in our business Tom and you know, you it's inevitable, right? And it's evolution and then revolution and when you hit the ceiling you have three choices You're gonna break through it. You're gonna flatline or you're gonna fail. That's it, right? So when you have that revolution and when you break through the ceiling, but another one is coming guarantee So it's just how we do think about how we grow as humans like you didn't just you know one day wake up in your six or tall I never woke up six so tall by the way One of these days in my head on six or tall. Yeah, but you know you grow in spurs, right? You hit a ceiling and then you break through and you grow and that's how you know So we grow the same way in our business as we do is as humans and and so don't say like if somebody tells me We never had a ceiling. Well, then you're stagged. You're your flatline. You're about to fail You know growing organizations will absolutely do it and then the other thing you you mentioned was Delegation it's not the same as accountability, right? So if you give someone a task, you know is way different than giving them a seat with clear outcomes And so you know again leaning on your company as an example. Yeah, absolutely. You know, so if we say go do this task and bring it back to us They're gonna deliver on exactly what we asked for. I use this analogy all the time Freddie Mercury and Queen right great Queen's a great rock band He went out. He had a solo career his solo career. He hired the best musicians on the planet They gave him exactly what he asked for and he failed miserable why he needed a positive friction, right? So when we're delegating to somebody we need to let them own that outcome own that seat bring something that we didn't do it so Leadership is one thing management is another and so many times I see people that are commingling those two and they're not the same thing I'm either leading you where I'm creating the opening and delegation is leadership and so a lot of people say I'm gonna delegate this to you, but then I'm gonna manage you on how to do it So which one are you really doing so either lead them where you're creating the opening like look bring it back like what's happening with us with those financial reviews They're bringing back some stuff that we never even thought about. Absolutely. Yeah, we created yeah you created that opening and like like now they're bringing things like, oh, what about this? What about this? Man, I never thought of that. This is beautiful. It's exactly what we want. Where if we would have said, do it this way, right? A, B, C, now we're managing. And that's okay. Management's a two way street. Tom, I need this from you. What do you need for me to be successful? Leadership is creating that opening. And so if you're delegating to somebody, you should be creating the opening, otherwise you're managing them. And I think, co-mingling those two skill sets is where I see people getting it wrong. And that's where the confusion comes from like, yeah, I've got an organization and I'm delegating. I'm like, no, you're an entrepreneur and you have staff. Right. And when you're managing by task assignment, like that, like what you're saying, you're basically not delegating. You're basically giving them these steps where you're not even allowing them creative problem solving where one of the things, and again, I'm not going to say I'm perfect at it because as I'm checking it now, if you're on the call, you're like, yeah, I think the Gens got it, right? And I know what that means. I mean, Tom, shut the F up. And I'm fine with that, but my team is now telling me, yeah, I got it, man, I'm good. 'Cause those instincts, and I think it's the core of it, it's fear. It is. It's fear of letting go of the vine as they use in EOS parlance, right? You know, and it's such a funny thing, 'cause I've picked on you. But I picked on you for a lot of things, right? But that's okay, man. It's all good, you make me better. So people are either death-gripping that vine, and they're never going to let it go, or they're like so quick to let it go, right? And so, like, and then it falls, and you're like, oh, well, now I gotta do everything myself. And so, you know, and sometimes it's a little bit of balls, you're like, look, I'm gonna get rid of that ball. I was gonna say, I've done balls, I'm gonna overachiever. I've let go so fast, and then when I take it back, I don't let go at all. Exactly, you just hang on to it. So it is scary, it is fear. And it's funny when, and every client I'm going through, you know, the feedback, I'm like, you know, one of the things staying your seat, staying your seat, and so you're dealing with an owner and telling the owner that they have to stay in their seats really awkward, and you know, it's one of those scenarios, like, look, you've gotta own your seat, you've gotta say, I need what I need to be successful, you've gotta take your space, because what, as entrepreneurs, right, we were, what got us to be successful? We solved everything, we did it all. Yeah, yeah, Tom, do it this way, no, no, I got it. Rather than go bring it back, you know, think about when you teach a kid to ride a bike, or anybody's taught a kid to ride a bike, or drive a car. Right, you take the training wheels off, it's a little bit wobbly, right? Then when they're peddling, they're looking down at their feet, they're not even looking at where they're going, before you know it, they're, you know, doing wheelies, and going off jumps and crazy stuff, right? Same thing with driving, first time you're driving, you're, you know, holding the wheel exactly, you're checking your mirrors and everything, before you know it's subconscious, right? You're not even thinking about it. So we need to get them to the point where they've got it, and we just don't trust that they're gonna do it. So it's that fear that's causing hang on. Like they're gonna mess it up. It's gonna, it's all gonna go sideways. The reality is we're gonna mess it up by hanging on to tight. Yeah, and what it also leads to is, it's an impossible scenario. As somebody who just left that stage, and really just, I didn't wanna look back. Dude, I was so burnt out. I was so burnt out, and now I have the depth and breadth to just do what I love to do. And, you know, for anybody that's doubtful of it, Mike gave me a challenge in the third quarter. I thought he was out of his mind. He sat in my quarterly meeting and said, "Here's what you're gonna do. You are responsible for all the marketing and sales, and you have zero budget to do it. You gave me zero dollars to spend on marketing and sales. I am not sure what voodoo you worked, but the theory of constraints is real. I ended up signing three different vendors, and another one that I have lined up that you and I have been talking about. That one will cost money, but the other three vendors didn't cost anything of which one of them already sent over. I wanna say close to 35 cases at this point. 35 cases, not one penny got spent, right? And so like that voodoo you did, it worked. Whatever you did, and now I know I screwed myself, 'cause Mike's like, okay, how many cases do you need to be at? As soon as possible, to be at the ex-revenue mark, and I told you, and I'm like, (beep) I shouldn't have said that. Now I know my next quarterly, I'm screwed. It's coming up in a couple of weeks, you see? I know, I'm terrified of what you're gonna do to me. Well, Tom, this all kind of wanted leadership abilities to break through the ceiling as your ability to predict, right, long-term, short-term. You're predicting the future. You've got, right. So listen, all right, so the lifecycle of the firm, the way I've always understood it, kinda zero to a million, you're kind of in survival mode, right? Like, you really can exhale around what I found is if you hired, most people hire Misha Goss in the first million, but if you hired decently, you will have roughly four to five employees, and yourself, and I found the exhale financially around 750,000, and I'm going back, you know, 15 years now, maybe. But that really was survival mode up to about $750,000, and I know other people have said EOS is really perfect for companies once they reach a certain break point. Like, is it a million dollars and 10 employees, is it like, wait, do you normally recommend it, 'cause EOS isn't cheap, right? It's not a free venture, it's not cheap. You know, it's funny to say that I think the opposite, I think it's really cheap. I guess because I see what it does, but 10 people is about the time where you can maximize the value of this. If you're under 10 people, there's all sort of, Gino's actually spun off some things for, you know, soloprene wars and different, you know, where you could start adopting some of the processes, and it's called elite, I think, as a name of it. So if you're okay, yeah, if you're under 10 people, you can jump into one of the elite things, and you'll start getting the muscle memory. Have you done that? Have you done that with any organization? I know you're typically with people that are over, or certainly haven't you? All right, so I just refer to them out, so if I meet somebody's soloprene, well, the other thing is, I love doing this, as you know, as my second chapter is, as you know, and so, for me, like, I get really excited, I was talking to somebody yesterday, he's a soloprene or a technology company, and, you know, he's, and we just sat down and chatted about, about all the things that, you know, hey, we can do this, this is, and I love being a resource for him, but if he was serious about getting into the OS, I would push him to elite until he gets to about 10 people, then we would build this leadership team. And so 10 people is about the sweet spot for where you kick off. Revenue, it has to be around, you know, probably north of, I would say, two million is about the right number. Anything less than that is just, my expense becomes too big for them to, you know, it's too much of a percentage of revenue, yeah, yeah, it just becomes too expensive for them to handle. And there's just, we need to have enough bulk to be able to work with, right? Like, so, you know, in organizations where you're like, hey, we got to make these moves. Once you have three, four, five million dollars in revenue, you have enough revenue to be able to like, you know, mold and motion, you know, push things around to get the output you want, but generally around 10 people, 250, they say is the top, I had one client that had over 400 employees, you know, they're big company, they're running 100 million in revenue. So big, big company, it's funny, I read something in the days like EOS stops working or you outgrow it. And the real idea is, is it, you never really outgrow it, it's degrees of shift, it's degrees. So if you're selling across the ocean and you're one degree off course, you're gonna miss by miles, right? And so, as I see, even with my own clients, when I'm going back in, I'm always trying to get you course corrected like, hey guys, it's natural that we're going to drift or L10, the issues that are coming out, they're kind of, I kind of be asked, you're not real, so I go in and shake things off, something I love. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, hold on a second, hold on a second, you gotta pause there. I saw that as a symptom and it was making me nuts. That is a symptom. If you're doing leadership team meetings, in which by the way, if you're not, that's a symptom that you might be hitting a ceiling or you will hit a ceiling. But when you're doing it, and if people are still talking, if you're north of three million, four million, five million, and people are still talking to you about their brand of toilet paper or the paper vendor for your printers, that's your symptom. You are the owner of the firm, you're doing X millions in revenue. That's a symptom that you're about to hit a ceiling or you're about to be the ceiling or whatever it is. That's just one of them that you brought up. Sorry, I didn't mean it to rough. - No, no, it's funny on the meeting. So I take a look around the meeting, especially law firms, a lot of you know, if you're an hourly billing law firm, especially I'm like, okay guys, let's figure out how much money is sitting at this table right now, right? And you're talking about, you know, thousands of dollars per hour, you know, at a minimum. And like this issue we're talking about, like what should we have as an appetizer at the holiday party? Is it worth $4,000? This is, 'cause I don't think it is. 'Cause we could have a pretty fancy appetizer if we didn't even talk about it. So, right, right, right, right. - So it's like, look, think about the value. And then when you leverage that value for really getting that, you know, Lynch-Yoni talks about the trust pyramid and the person that vulnerability based trust so that we can engage in healthy conflict. And they, you know, yesterday you and I had a conversation about that, I'm like, okay Tom, you know, let's engage in some healthy conflict on this. 'Cause, you know, there's nothing better than finding that middle law. And I'm gonna take one side intentionally just so that we could land where we need to land. And, you know, that's also where commitment happens, you know, where you said, hey, I think we should paint the building line green, you know, and I disagree, but at least if I was heard, I can buy in, right, I'm, so I said what I had to say, you heard me, the team didn't agree, whatever, we still paint the building line green. You know, I'm not gonna be the guy walking into the room saying, I think they're all idiots. 'Cause I said we should paint the blue instead. - Right, right, right. Those parking lot meetings too, right? like that's a big thing, you know, it's been such an interesting process. And again, if you're in the sweet spot for it or you've been on the fence, you know, Mike does these 90 minute kind of EOS demos and you know, maybe it's worth a quick phone call to see if you qualify, if you sub to million, I would actually say to anybody listening to it, if you've crossed a million with 10 employees, well actually that's too many employees for a million dollars. So if you've crossed a million if five employees, it maybe worth just exploring 'cause man, I wish I had built from the beginning, you know, it's funny 'cause Louisa came in after having built two major law firms, right? She just built two major law firms north of 15 million, north of 20 million, probably knowing her. And she was like, man, it's so different jumping into something from 20 years in. The amount of habits, the amount of systems, the amount of stuff that, you know, another symptom by the way is you have all these systems that nobody follows. That's another symptom. And I guess to kind of give the listeners something, so it's the 95% versus the 5% or the illusion of right here. You see some business owners just like, they've got the mightest touch, they're walking on sunshine no matter what they do, it's always good and we're dealing with a thousand issues all at the same time, and there's really a boils down to five frustrations, right? Control, you know, the van's going down the road at 60 miles an hour, nobody's driving. You feel like nobody's in control, right? Profit, you're putting in all this energy, you've got all this exposure, you're just not making enough for what you're doing. People are frustrating, you know, like look, I just can't get my people to do what I need them to do, and you've tried all these different things, nothing's working. Those are all the symptoms of how you, you know, you've hit a ceiling and we need to figure out our way to break through. So yeah, and profits a big one for law firm owners. Too often the refrain is, I'm not a numbers guy, I'm not a numbers woman, you know, like you owe it to everybody around you to be profitable, and you owe it to yourself. Otherwise go get a job because what you've created is a job for yourself that's actually crap job. And I say it all the time at this point, like there's few things that keep law firm owners up at night like their numbers. They've got too many people, they've got the wrong people in the wrong seats, and all of a sudden their numbers are flat zero or at worst negative, right? Like that's not a business, that's not a business, and I challenge anybody otherwise at this point. - Yeah, have you built a law firm that happens to employee or have you built yourself a successful job, like what, you know, which one of those two is that if you step out, is this entity going to continue without you pushing the, you know, pushing it, if you're the guy pushing it, that's okay, look, we've all pushed our business to get to a certain point, but then at some point, you know, we've got to change our superpower and realize that it's become our kryptonite, and we need to then allow our team to come in and start bringing that in, you know, what I really love, and there's no shortage of people selling to business owners. I think I bought, you know, every widget that there was in the 30 plus years I was running my companies, and you know, I just love the fact that what I do provides real tangible results. - Yeah, pause there for a second. I gotta say something. So I have been in this space a long time. I have had coaches and consultants work for me for a long time. One of the symptoms that you've hit a ceiling is you've got a coach and you're still not breaking through certain levels, right? I now am getting called by some of the old consultants and coaches, and they're asking me questions. And I'm thinking in my head, your vision is not clear. Or I'm thinking, you need EOS. There are people out there and like not all, and I'm not casting shade on anybody, but there are consultants out there that actually need EOS themselves, right? So like, if you're going into the space as a law firm owner, I'll take a call anytime, I know a lot of the players in the space, and two, just proceed cautiously. They're not all created equal, right? People can sell you something. That doesn't mean that they've done the thing. - Yeah, and I said, I don't know whether, you know, for me, it's about the opportunity for success, right? So why do I do this? I've got to be able to move the needle. So this is the money and what I, you know, I don't do it for free, but the money is secondary for what I'm doing. I'm really doing this to move the needle. And I love the fact that on average, somebody's with me for about two years. And then they're ready to graduate. Some of them don't graduate, because I hold them accountable in the room, and they love that, right? And that's great. But as long as we're moving the needle forward, I'm happy, but if I feel like we're flat lining, I have a conversation with my clients all the time, like, what guys, if you're happy where you are, that's great, I'm just going to step aside because there's somebody else out there that I can help that's going to want to move the needle forward. I'm all about the goal and getting it done. I need that success. I love it, I love it, but I think it's a really important distinction that lawyers are known to cut checks to make pain go away. And you really got to do you due diligence, right? I mean, when I earn a lot of rooms and we know what's going on out there, right? Do you do diligence? Call around, ask people. I think the simplest question is, when does this process end? So I'm going to engage you, Tom, as my consultant, tell me what's the lifespan of it. And if they say forever, run. Right, right, right. Well, look, I would also challenge a lot of people that you might think you ready or you think you want it, but are you going to execute, right? Like how many times do we hear people come back in a room, you know, you and I are in a lot of the same rooms? Somebody comes in there like, I have this problem. Okay, we can diagnose it, we can troubleshoot it. Here's what I've done in the past. I love the experience sharing versus advice because I've made mistakes. I don't want to sit on my pulpit, but I could say, oh, this worked for me or this didn't work. I love the difference between experience sharing and giving advice. But if you go around a table and 10 people do the experience share with you and if you come back in 90 days, then you've got the same issue. Like, I'm a blind executed with you. Like, I don't have to worry. If we're making a mistake together, I'm good with that. But 90% of the time, the stuff that you and I are going to do together, I just need to execute on it, right? It's so funny. I said that the experience share versus, you know, and I'm so conscientious of taking off my hat, 'cause a lot of times, like somebody will call me up, you know, some of the people that we know, like, hey, Mike, what do you think of this? I'm like, look, I'm gonna take off my EOS hat here because I'm about to just tell you my opinion. This has nothing to do with something I've gone through, but, you know, if I connect the dots in my story in my head, this is what I think might work, but take that for a grain of salt, right? And there's a big difference between somebody who said, I have a hot, that exact situation, and this is what's worked for me. Or here's a tool that you can use that might be able to get you out, but there's so many times. And back to being like, again, tying it back to hitting the ceiling. As the owner of the business, are you the guy solving the answers? Are you the girl last time? Are you the person that has-- - I was just thinking the same thing. Like, stop being the endpoint. One of the beautiful things to me about EOS is you're not the endpoint. The integrator in your organization has final say where there is conflict between the visionary and the integrator, they canvass the leadership team, and if it's a stalemate, they make the decision. And quite honestly, what I didn't realize until I heard Chad Dudley use the term. They're the operator. If you're a visionary, I can say this with supreme confidence odds are you're a sh*t operator. I said it, I said it, somebody proved me differently. 'Cause if you're the greatest operator in the world, you're probably not the visionary. - If anybody wants, I'll send them a tool for that, it's called the vision-- - Think it's a crystallize your test. - Yeah, whether or not you're a visionary and you are very clearly one or the other, right? You're a great starter, you're not a great finisher, or you're a great carry in the baltzer. - I'm raising my hand on all of that. - Yeah, exactly. I'm a professional starter myself. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So all right, I like to play this game with this rapid fire stuff. So I came up with some questions that I've heard law firm owners say, you just kind of whatever comes top of mine, but tell me, when you hear this, is this the problem or the symptom, it's binary, right? Problem or symptom, right? And then what's it a symptom of? My employees don't take ownership. - Yeah, so it's the accountability chart, right? - I always think back to the component, right? So that is a-- - People component because your accountability chart is not good. - But is that the problem? In your mind, when you hear somebody like me say that, my employer, my team doesn't take ownership. Is that a problem? Or are you like, hey, that's a symptom? I gotta dig a little deeper. Are you the problem, right? Like yeah, yeah. And going through the IDS on that, I guess if we're talking about a general question where somebody says, my employees aren't accountable, I would ask them, do they know what they're accountable for? Right, do they know what accountability means? So what is it that they're not accountable for? Are you saying they're not accountable for doing their job? Do they know what their job is or are you changing the job every single day? Is there three to five things in their seat that they own that they can get done? Or like, what is it that they're doing? Again, I just recently had a client tell me that he's outsourcing, he's delegating, and it's not getting done. It's like, okay, well, you know, let's IDS that. Where is this really? 'Cause a lot of times it's, you know, you're pointing the finger and three of them are pointing right back at you. Which is what I always shine a mirror back to you on those things. - I know, man, I know, I love it. Because so really quick to the level of accountability at the firm has never been higher. And I haven't had to do a damn thing to make that happen. What I found is that the scorecarding, the level 10 meetings, everything has just led to this individual accountability. And I've been like, this is amazing. It's just amazing to watch. But I'm also not the guy like, I'm the only one that can do this. Not at this point, like I've let go of that mindset. And accountability, people are like, how do I hold my people accountable? I'm like, you can't. You know, there's two things you could do. you kid. Leave them you could manage them right the byproduct of that it's going to be accountability So those tools you just talked about the scorecard, you know, did you do your to-do's you're either going to do it or you're not right and you know Don't get me started on rocks. You know my feel on rocks, man You give somebody two to three rocks and in 90 days You know if they're a rock star or they're not a rock star period hard stop I know I'm making pretty Generalized statement, but I don't want to get too specific But you know, I've come to the point in my life from like I can know within 30 days if somebody's a rock star at this point Matter of fact, you know if somebody's a rock star in 30 days because if you did your job right when you extended the offer You kind of have two to three rocks fleshed out for the first 90 days that in 30 days rock stars get the first one done Right and they become ascending delete team member meaning you can press send on an email and deleted and know it got Done like you have to build these tests in as a leader as an owner of your business It's been listen you and I could be talking. I know we have like four minutes So I'm gonna keep going with game a little bit. So when you hear somebody saying, you know, everything comes back to me You know, what is that signal to you is that is that the problem or the symptom? It's a symptom of what they've created and everything's come back to them because you're teaching people Just like you know, get using the animals in there, right? You could teach your dog to give you a par to do this or do any of these tricks We teach people the same way. I'm gonna give you the answer to this You need to come to me and it's just like rinse and repeat This is what we do and then you say everything's coming through me. I don't know why right? You've got 30 years or 10 years or whatever it is of teaching your people This is what you want them to do and now you want to change it So and that's right. That means you're ready to do something like EOS or you're ready to make a change But I'll tell you man look that can cripple organizations because 20 years of doing it And then there are people who just don't want to let go of that model We're all of a sudden now the owner is outgrown it and those people end up exiting because they're like we never did it this way You have a Tom doesn't want to input on to the type of toilet paper we're using or the or the Christmas Appetizers at the holiday dinner type of thing You know, it kind of goes back to I know I keep going back to the animal scenario But it's really just a function of finding people that are if you give people the guard rails like Tom You're responsible for these three or five things you own them completely It gives me the there's no more fear of operation There's no more fear like well, what if I buy the wrong brand of toilet paper What if I do this or what if I spend too much like give them the ability to own it and say like look This is the outcome that I need from you Whatever it takes to get that outcome is you bring that to the table and I think when you do that It gets rid of that fear you're right that some people are just never going to do that and they need to go somewhere else And you know being a better spot But if you give people those guard rails they'll perform at a higher rate. Yeah, look I think the the beauty of this process is I've never felt more personal growth from it And like I have to say thank you for that because again I was trying to think of what brought us together this last round I had met you years ago at a mastermind. So look I think I would leave Everybody with this because we're just coming up on the hour the next episode You know the question I would leave people with is what's the cost of running a 20-25 person law firm When the blueprint for that lives primarily inside your head is the owner Right and the perfect segue for that is just think about that question come back You know next week Mike and I'll talk about it, but how you get the firm and the vision out of the visionaries head onto paper And then trickle down through the whole organization. It's doable I did it, but man was I lost in that journey for so long like I look at you Mike And I call Mike Mike my country gliary because we're both Italian Americans That's from the godfather if anybody doesn't know, but I kind of look at you as the guy in front of me With the machete entering the jungle like you cleared the way for me to go to the next level of personal growth clarity All these different things. So I think it's a good place to stop it. Say thank you for coming on I'll put Mike's LinkedIn and profile, you know information and how to get a hold of him I know how to get all them. I'll put it in the old and the show notes Mike anything you want to leave anybody with? No, it's just gonna say if I've got the machete you've got the wood shippers, so we're a good team All right, my friend. Thank you for coming on and I'll see you next week and this is awesome. Thank you Mike. All right. Have a good week. I'll see you (upbeat music)