Why Success Still Feels Empty | Jane Marie Chen, Founder of Embrace

There's this pressure that creates healthy drive, and then there's the point where it tips into being unhealthy drive. What would it look like if you went on a healing journey of your own? To even just consider it is something that I think most people have never done. It didn't matter how many degrees I got, or accolades I want, or babies I saved. There's always this void that nothing could fill. And so is that sense of not enoughness trauma isn't just something that lives in your past. It's actually something that rewires your brain and your nervous system, such that you bring the past into the present. I'm Shuri, I'm Gene, and we're the Tiger Sisters. We are your Wall Street and Silicon Valley big sisters, and we're a top 10 business podcast bringing late-night sister talk meets boardroom strategy. Hi, Tiger Fam, welcome to Tiger Sisters, Director's Cut episode. This is our Director's Cut episode, where we're revisiting some of our favorite conversations, and we're bringing you the best of the best, and some of our new takeaways, which after several months removed from the original conversation, we have new thoughts. This week, we are revisiting our conversation with Jane Marie Chen, which Shuri and I both believe is one of the most important conversations that we've ever filmed. Jane Marie Chen was the CEO and founder of Embrace, which is a company whose goal was to save one million babies around the world through this revolutionary product that they designed to help save premium babies in developing countries. And she's the author of Like a Wave We Break, which is her memoir as she details her experiences growing up in a traumatic environment, how she grew out of that, and how she's actually created her own healing journey, which she shared with us very candidly on our conversation. What I loved about this conversation with Jane Marie Chen is that on the outside, you can see all the accolades at the end of the LinkedIn resume features. She's gone to Harvard, she's gone to Stanford, she's the CEO of this nonprofit and incredible company. - Yes, she was like honored by President Barack Obama. - Yeah, the list goes on. - It looks absolutely incredible because it is, but she also details the sacrifice and what it took on her mental health on her relationships to get to where she was. And this conversation really peels back the layers of perfectionism, of using achievement as a coping mechanism, which maybe you and I, and maybe some of our listeners know a little bit about and can really relate and have so many good takeaways from this conversation. - Yeah, I think if you identify as an overachiever in any way, this episode is really important to watch, because Jane goes through her whole healing journey, and it's not that everyone necessarily needs to do their own healing journey, but just watching her talk about hers is almost like a proxy. It's like a ghost way of like going through it yourself like very, very likely without having to fully examine yourself. It's really helpful to watch her fully examine herself. - Well, I think it's a kicking off point, right? It, she brings up so many good anecdotes, so many good stories, and a lot of, I think like research and books and mentors, she sites where you're like, oh, maybe I should think about that. Or, oh, am I burying myself in work, in career, in all these different aspects to avoid or escape something that's deeper within? So I think it's just really good fodder so that you start using it as a way to hold up a mirror to yourself as like, do I do some of these things? Or do I have any of these thought patterns that maybe I should introspect and work on? - Yeah, yeah, such a good way of putting it. So okay, before we give everything away, we'll dive into the episode. So what's gonna happen is we'll play the episodes you guys can watch the interview, and then stick around until the very end, because Shereen, I have more thoughts that we're gonna reflect on and share with you in the Special Directors Cut episode. So let's get into it. If you're watching this episode and you aren't already subscribed, what are you doing? Hit the subscribe button, it only takes three seconds, and once you subscribe, you get notified whenever a new episode of Tiger Sisters drops. - This is one of the hardest conversations we've ever had on Tiger Sisters, because it's something that we carry, but we rarely talk about. - Childhood trauma, forgiveness, and the process of healing from people who raised us. If you've ever wondered how to forgive your parents, this episode might change the way you see them and yourself. Jay-Marie Chen has a resume that is untouchable. Harvard, Stanford, non-profit founder that saved over a million babies honored by President Obama, the list goes on. Her memoir, like a wave we break, shares about what happens when achievement is a coping mechanism. - It's about what it takes to forgive the people who broke you when they're also the people that made you and loved you. - Trigger warning, we talk about abuse and self-harm in this episode. And if you're struggling, please know that you're not alone. We've linked help lines and resources in the description. - Jay-Marie Chen, welcome to the Tiger Sisters podcast. - Yay! - Thank you for having me. - Yeah. - So Jayne, we're gonna dive right into our questions. - Sure. - So in your memoir, you describe moments of physical and verbal abuse, like being hit by a belt, being slapped so hard that your glasses flew off. Many things that immigrant children experience, but rarely talk about. How did you find the courage to not just talk about it, but to write about it in such a public way? - Well, I think I really wanted to share the journey as a way to help anyone else who has been through similar experiences. And that meant sharing the whole journey and the hardest part of the journey, the hardest parts of the journey. And what had happened in my upbringing with regards to physical abuse, which I didn't even recognize as abuse until probably my late 30s. So it was a wake up call to me. And as I started sharing my story, I met so many others who had had similar experiences. And that's what gave me the courage to do this. It was an order to help other people, and extend a lifeline to others who are struggling with the same issues. The book begins 10 years into the journey of my company, embrace, which builds low-cost baby incubators for preemies in developing countries. It was a technology that my team and I invented at Stanford back in 2008, and we turned it into a company, and then I moved to India. And we made a goal to save a million babies with our incubators. And I basically made that mission my life. So I gave my soul to this work. And in that process, I experienced so many setbacks and challenges, and really was burned out at the end of this 10-year period when we faced a setback that was so big we had to shut down the company. And at that point, I was just absolutely devastated. I felt like a complete failure. And so I decided to go on a healing journey. And I packed up a surfboard, a suitcase. I bought a one-way ticket to Indonesia, and I threw myself into healing with the same intensity I'd once poured into building my company. And so as I went through this journey, I finally connected the dots that feeling so powerless through my childhood, that's what had given me the drive, right? The fuel to help the most powerless people in the world. But there was a shadow side of that in that it also drove me to work to really unhealthy levels. At the expense of my own mental health and well-being. - I mean, I just wanna say that I respect and like venerate what you have done so much to like put yourself out there in such a true and open way and like really be vulnerable about your past. Like I just know you are helping so many people out there. And that's also why we were really, really excited and looking forward to this conversation because I don't think I've ever like read a book that had that level of like honesty and exploring these topics like yours. And it's important to talk about it to like put it down on paper and like put it into words. Otherwise, otherwise it doesn't get addressed before recording this episode as we're doing some reflecting. And I think this is the most important conversation that we're gonna have on Tiger Sisters because of course there's so many podcasts out there that talks about the business world and career and all these things to like up level. But like once you're there and reflecting on how you got there and often the very painful ways to do that. I'm like, this is a conversation that I don't think anyone else is having. And I think it starts with you sharing so vulnerable in your book. - Yeah, thank you guys. And I actually see this particularly with high achievers, you know, and we think real people have been out, right? And we think people with perfect resumes, they've got it all together. But often people with these like perfect looking outsides come from histories of trauma, right? And achievement becomes a coping mechanism. Achievement becomes a trauma response because we feel like we're not enough, right? And so we feel like we have to do more and be more and prove more and we completely burn out in the process. And I see this particularly with entrepreneurs, with social entrepreneurs, but with also just a number of the high achieving people that I'm serving. surrounded by, but we live in a culture in which we try to escape our pain, right? The moment we feel something painful, we turn to social media, we turn to substances, we turn to our work, right? And so a lot of what I've had to learn is how to really face those painful experiences and sit with them. And that's the only way through to the other side. And I think another aspect of this is what happens in Asian culture. And I think there are cycles of abuse that become normalized because they're considered a part of the cultural norm. And so that's why as I went through this journey, I felt it really imperative to call it out and to be more open about this, right? So others feel more seen, validated, and less alone. And Jane, why do you think it is that children of immigrants or first-generation people feel that drive to achieve? It's a way for them to feel safe. It's a way for them to sort of escape these other things that are going on in their lives. What do you think is behind it? I think there's a lot. I think a lot of the cultural expectation is around high achievement, right? Whether that be in school or in our careers. I think there's also this pressure that our families gave up everything to come here, right? And so we want to excel. We want to show that that was all worthwhile. And so we take it upon ourselves to be the best that we can. I think that's all kind of tangled up in here. And then there's this phenomenon, and I see this especially in Asian culture, like nothing's good enough, right? And so that's certainly how I felt for most of my life and all my upbringing. And it didn't matter how many degrees I got or accolades I want or babies I saved, there was always this void that nothing could fill. And so is that sense of not enoughness, which I didn't know how to articulate back then. But I think that was also a result of, again, the abuse from my childhood, that is a child, you can't really make sense of it. And so you wonder, well, what's wrong with me? And then as an adult, you want to prove that you're okay, that you're worthy. And so I think that's what was driving me. And it was, I really believed in the mission of the organization. And as I said, my pain really became my purpose, right? It gave me so much drive to do the work that I do. And at the same time, there was this dark shadow side of that. So it was both things simultaneously. Do you think the context of coming from a background where your family or your parents gave up so much and sacrificed so much for you to get you where you are? Do you think that is a helpful driver? Or is it a lot slash too much weight to hold and carry? I think it's both. I think it's both. I think there's this pressure that creates healthy drive. And then there's the point where it tips into being unhealthy drive, right? And so in my case, there was the drive of wanting to do something good for healthy reasons. And then there was this other part of needing to prove. And so I think once it gets into that needing to prove category or feeling like you should be doing something, that's when it can feel unhealthy. And that's where I think we need to develop that awareness around like what our motivations are. And is this healthy for me just like from a mental health and well-being perspective? Yeah. I think Shireen and I, we actually talked about this topic a little bit on a really really early episode of Tiger Sisters, like first season ever or something. I think maybe the way that we put it is that you kind of feel like the weight of all of your ancestors and like all of the generations that came before you. And it's like, it's helpful to know your family history. But sometimes when parts of the family history can feel so heavy, and I think this is true for like a lot of people, a lot of communities, not just AAPI, but people who have some sort of history of like overcoming or like trauma or like escaping a terrible situation in their ancestral chain. Like you almost feel like you owe it to them. You're like, I am living out my ancestors dreams like even just in my day to day life. And it's like how can I not like make it up to them? Like I need to do the most with my life. I need to make the most of my life. I need to save a million babies because I can and they never could. So like it's you feel almost this like level, this like imperative inside you. Yeah. I think that's right. Yeah. And it's been also ends up becoming safety, right? Because we grew up in these environments where we're wanting to belong and we don't necessarily like we were with the only Asian family, one of the only Asian families in my in my neighborhood. Yeah. Right. So we didn't we didn't belong. My parents didn't speak English. I moved to the US when I was four years old. I didn't speak a word of English. And so you feel like an outcast and achieving gives you a sense of belonging. Right. And so there's kind of a safety in that that we're also seeking. I want to talk a little bit more about your work with Bessel van der Kolk, the author of The Body Keep Score. You wrote in your memoir that the imprint of your father's violence was lodged in your body, stuck in a survival loop. Can you explain what that means and how does trauma actually live in the body? Sure. Yeah. I think this was one of the big turning points of my healing journey was reading The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk. And up until that point, I think I had the belief that what happens in your past, just leave it in the past. Right. Why deal with it? And I remember in business school, actually, I saw a therapist and he wanted to dive into my childhood. And I was like, I don't want to talk about that. I'm not. I don't want to play the role of the victim or villain of my parents. I have a life now. Let's move on. And what I think that's such a classic like hoping that mechanism. Right. Like helps you survive. It helps you survive. You'd rather just kind of sweep it under the rug. Yeah. And so reading this book was like completely eye-opening for me because what I learned is trauma isn't just something that lives in your past. It's actually something that rewires your brain and your nervous system such that you bring the past into the present and it affects every part of your life, right? Trauma gets stored in your body in that way. Trauma is also stored in the limbic system. So this is the part of our brain that is responsible for emotions, for connections. Not thinking, but thinking part of our brain is the neocortex. And so this is a big realization I had. For me, talk therapy never worked because you can't talk your way out of trauma. You have to feel your way through it. And that was something, again, that was those that was so eye-opening for me. And on this healing journey, I basically put on my CEO hat and I wanted to try every healing modality. I had a spreadsheet of "Yeah, you don't need it." It's something that didn't work. I would pivot to the next day. And I wanted to find that magic elixir that was going to fix me. And what I learned is that instead of doing more, I needed to slow down and I needed to feel. I needed to feel my heart break, I needed to feel my fear, my anger, all of it, everything I'd been running away from, right? And so it wasn't until I did that and did that through the help of teachers, healers, friends who created a safe space for me to go there. That's when my healing journey truly began. I really empathized when I was reading this part of your memoir because I am such a doer and fixer. I have such a fixer mentality. I'm like, okay, whether at work or in a relationship or anything, I'm like, okay, here's a challenge. How do I fix it? And what are the top five things that I can do? And A/B test them and go through all of them, see if they work and pivot if they don't. So when I was reading this part of your memoir, I was like, this is so me. And it turns out the solution is not, or one of the solutions is not to be, you know, bringing my product manager, CEO, momentum into it, but actually slowing down is so hard and quite possibly the solution to turning inwards. Yeah. And it's hard, especially because we disconnect from our emotions as a survival mechanism when we're younger because it's too painful to feel those things. Also because when you're younger, you don't have the tools to process it. You don't know what to do with those feelings. So like, I think the safest thing is to put them away. You don't know how to productively process them. Yeah, I think. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So it's an adult. It's like learning all of that again, you know, and there's such beauty in that because that's what makes us human and alive, you know, is being able to reach into the depths of those emotions. And there's so much wisdom to our emotions is this what, is this what people call inner child work? Well, you can get to that too. Yeah. That's part of it. I think the other really helpful part of my healing journey was discovering something called parts work or internal family systems. This is a therapeutic modality that's based on the premise that we all can consists of a multitude of parts, right? So you guys might have the overachiever part, the control freak, the perfectionist, the inner critic, you know, I'm making this all up, but we all have these-- - Sounds plausible. - Yeah, just sound that made up. So we have these parts that are there to protect us, and they're there to protect us from the parts that carry more painful emotions, like shame, rejection, abandonment, right? And so the goal of this practice is to recognize these different parts of ourselves. I had this, like, warrior part, that one of my exes, nicknamed "Jangus Khan." (laughing) But the goal is to recognize and have compassion for each of these parts, rather than to shame or to banish them, to understand that they've all played a role in our life, right? And so how do we develop self-acceptance and self-compassion based on this? And what I learned through this process was that part of me that was all about trying to, you know, do more and achieve more and save the world, that was protecting the part of me that never felt like I was enough, you know, that very young part of me. And so really pivotal part of my healing journey was having a relationship, developing a relationship with that part of myself. And for most of my life, I wanted the rest of the world to show this part of myself that I was worthy. That's what all the external achievements were about. But when you're relying on the external, the goal post will just keep moving. Nothing's gonna be good enough, right? Everything you're seeking externally, you have to find internally. - Yeah, I think we have a lot of people in our community that I think are probably also really high achieving and can be really hard on themselves. So like what is something that they could do today to like stop being so hard on themselves and show themselves that level of like compassion that you say is important for healing and growing? - Yeah, well, this is where coming back to your question about the inner child work. I have a picture of myself on my desk as a five year old. And I would literally just have conversations with this five year old me, you know? And at one point in my healing journey and this is through Bethel's retreat. So to come back to Bethel with my little overachiever hat on, after I read the book, I became so obsessed with him that I stalked him until he agreed to become my therapist. And so did some like really important work with him over the last couple of years. But at one of his retreats he did something called a psychodrama. So this is a group healing like modality where you pick people in the group to play the role of your parents and they enact what happened. And then you go back and you find new people to play the role of your ideal parents. And the idea is to give yourself the experience of a more loving or nurturing alternative to what happened. And so I watched this happen at Bethel's retreat and I was like, I became obsessed. I was like, this is the thing that's going to fix me. If I just heard the right words from the ideal father, I would be whole and free. So I went around looking for the perfect ideal father. You know, and at one point I recruited a man who looked like Santa Claus to play the role of my ideal father. Turns out the big jolly white man was not my ideal father. (laughing) But in the last chapter of the book I talk about, like I recruited a friend to play this role. I wrote out every line that I wanted him to say to me. And so he did this, he said all these lines. And I felt nothing, you know, I felt nothing. And so I took this picture of myself as a five year old and I took that piece of paper and I read every line to that little girl. I just said, you're enough, you're worthy. And I'm so sorry that happened to you. And I said all the things to this little girl that I wished someone else had said to me. And it was only when I said those things to myself that I finally felt something. You know, and I realized that again, all the things we're looking for from other people have to come from within. So how do we develop that relationship with ourselves, right? And that for me, that has literally been having these conversations with me as a child. And I've become like, part's work is something that's been so helpful to me. It's something I recommend to everybody. So for people who are interested, there's a wonderful book called No Bad Parts that I recommend. On my website, there's a bunch of free resources, including an exercise around part's work that people can download and try on themselves. But those, that practice has been the most groundbreaking for me in terms of self-compassion. - If you guys enjoyed our recent episode about communication with Professor Matt Abrahams, you should check out his podcast Think Fast Talk Smart. - Yes, this was one of my favorite conversations. And Professor Matt Abrahams was my speaking coach when I did my TED Talk last year. - We basically manifested this episode because we literally talked about him in an episode the year before. And then now here we are besties with him and recommending his podcast. Check out Think Fast Talk Smart. It's a podcast that comes out twice a week on Mondays and Thursdays. They go over everything about communication and speaking, whether it's presenting, small talk, networking, they cover it all and communication is such a universal topic. There's something for everyone. - In turning to your family and your parents, how do you find peace, internal peace? In loving the people who made you, but who also deeply hurt you? - Yeah, I think for me, that was really having compassion for my family history was a really big part of this writing process. And in the book, I explore the way that my parents grew up, what happened to them. And so I started to understand the way that seeps into family systems and into lineages. And having a great deal of compassion for both my ancestry, my history, the history of the country, the history of my parents, all of those things. And so what it's allowed me to do is to have an understanding and to have compassion. And that doesn't make certain behaviors right. I don't condone abuse of any kind, but I have an open heart towards my family. And I have peace with my parents. And I know they did the best they could within the means that they had, within the context that they grew up in. And so that was really, really important to me to understand their whole stories. And my practice then is how do I both have boundaries for myself and be open-hearted to do both things simultaneously? - It's really challenging to be able to hold both at the same time. - Yeah, it's really challenging to be able to hold both. And part of that for me has been tuning in to my body in terms of what feels right and what doesn't feel right. And so when I'm around certain behaviors that feel toxic, I feel that now, where we talked earlier about kind of disconnecting from emotions. Now my body, I tune into that and I start contracting and I realize, okay, I don't wanna be around these behaviors. And then I have the choice to not be, right? And so it's kind of tuning in to what's right for me as I decide what are my boundaries. And at the same time, like practicing that open-heartedness, which I think is so important because ultimately, that's what gives you inner peace, right? When you're angry and resentful. And by the way, I think those are really important emotions to feel and process. But when you kind of carry on, carry a hold that resentment, you hurt yourself in the process. And I think my greatest freedom has been feeling all of those things and then being able to let them go. One of the big turning points that you talk about in your book is when you and your younger sister actually sort of confronted your family about this for the first time. And like you kind of said, this was my experience. This is why it wasn't okay. Like actually having that conversation. Do you think that now that the context has changed for your family or for people's family members? Like what is the level of sort of expectation that you have of them to like develop themselves and grow versus just kind of holding the onus on yourself and being like, you know what, I can control myself. I can have my boundaries. Yeah, how do you think about those two things? - Yes, that's a really great question. I remember one of my mentors, my leadership coach, Diana Chapman, she's the founder of the conscious leadership group. She was the one who said to me, you have to talk to your parents. And I was like, no, that would never happen. You know how Asian parents are like talking with them? - Yeah, right, about like deep emotion. - Yeah. - Like that's crazy. I was like, that's never gonna happen. And so-- - In ability? - Yeah. - Yeah. - Where? - Yeah. So she kept like encouraging me to do this. And then I remember what really kind of pushed me over the edge in terms of having the courage, which was about, maybe this was like. six years ago, five or six years ago, a friend that I had grown up with. He was a year above me in high school, also Taiwanese-American. And I knew there was violence in their home. He took his life. And it really woke me up to something. And I started to realize that my silence was complicity. And if I didn't raise this issue with my parents and with the community at large, then I was complicit in what was happening, right? And again, in these cycles of abuse. And so I decided to talk to my parents. And it was super scary, right? It was like the scariest thing that I've ever done. And as I did it, the way I prepared for it was to really remind myself-- and again, this dynamic leadership coach said, this is not about changing your parents. It's about taking the hand of that little girl and standing up for her, right? And so it was more-- Yeah, which is-- Damn. Also, so-- That's a lot. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So-- and so that was the point of that exercise. I didn't go into it thinking my parents are going to change. I know who they are, who they are. And they've also tried to hear me and listen. But I didn't walk into that with the expectation that suddenly, everything was going to change overnight. But I did feel that it was really important for me to establish that relationship with myself, such that I could trust myself, OK? And so that was the most important thing that came out of that. So your goal for that was more to be listened to and to have that actual dialogue, as opposed to necessarily being like having any expectations of the other person coming out of the conversation. Yeah. And I think everyone's on their own journey, right? And we can only control our part of this when we expect someone else to behave a certain way. And they don't. That creates great disappointment and suffering. And so what I believe is the best I can do is put my truth out there. And the more I put my truth out there, the more others can stand in their own truth. Yeah, right? And that's the best I can do. I think that's something that can be applied not only to relationships with your family and your parents, but also relationships with friends, relationships with your partner. That's something that gets sort of debated a lot, expecting someone to change versus putting that, I guess, onus more on yourself, or just not putting that onus on them. Or speaking your truth. My interpretation, actually of what Jane said, was less being listened to or heard. And more just speaking, and just for yourself, and for your inner child, standing up for yourself. And if the other party wants to listen to you, whether it's a parent or a partner or whatever, that's kind of on them, they can or cannot. But at least you've said your piece, and you've stood up for your inner child. I think that is probably so helpful for self-reflection. Like that in itself is the therapeutic. That is a modality, is the saying it out loud to the person, whether or not they're actually even listening or absorbing it because it's kind of your takeaway. Yeah, because they might not have the capacity to absorb or listen. And that's not really on you. That's right. I think that's absolutely right. But there's something about speaking our truth out loud, especially when it's painful. There's just some power to that. And I think it allows us, coming back to this idea of self, acceptance and self-compassion. Again, when we are able to do that, it allows us to accept all these parts of ourselves. Yeah. Yeah, I often think about the balance of obligation and boundaries. I'm still figuring that out because I know holidays are coming up, and people are going to be around their families. Whether or not you want to, you might go home, and it's often really hard for people to establish boundaries with their families. If that's not something they grew up knowing how to do. Yeah. No, I think that's absolutely right. And it's very hard to establish boundaries with families because we want to love our families. And the more we can say no to certain things, the stronger our yeses also become. And so I think that that's been really healthy for me from a family perspective is like when I have healthy boundaries for myself, then I can engage with my family more wholeheartedly because I don't have kind of that underlying angst or resentment, right? So again, this has been like a new practice for me to tune into what does that feel like? One of the most useful practices, and again, this is something I've learned through, like leadership coaching and so on. And now that I've transitioned into leadership coaching, something I'd love to teach. And it's this concept of what is a whole body? Yes, right? So think about something in your life that you really wanted to do. Maybe it's a trip you wanted to go on or friend you wanted to see, a meal you wanted to eat. What does that feel like in your body, right? When your head, your heart, and your gut are all aligned. And for me, that often feels like a straight line of energy just up and down my body and everything's like almost like, you know, it feels effervescent. And I feel energy lifting upwards, right? That's a whole body, yes. So anything that doesn't feel like that, you have to question, do I really wanna do this? That's a high standard. That's a very high standard. Yeah, and it doesn't always mean no, you don't, but it just pause and question yourself. Like why, to what end? To what end, right? And what is this telling me? So I'll give you an example. I've been on book tour the last six weeks. And when my book came out, I went to New York for an event like two or three days later. And I had an opportunity, actually, to do three events on that day. Old me, no problem. I would have done all three events and just been wiped. Yeah, right? But tuning into my body, I was like, I felt that contraction. It wasn't a full body, yes. Right? And so I had to really ask myself, do I wanna do this or not? Right? Is this gonna be healthy for me? Am I gonna burn out the very beginning of my book tour? And I ultimately decided and I was very proud of myself for this, but I ultimately decided to do one event. And that was it. And I'm so glad I did that. Right? And this is so contrary to like the overachiever part of me, but having that awareness of, okay, that doesn't feel quite right or aligned. So it's then pausing and asking yourself, do you really wanna do this? And then you might decide yes or no, but at least having that moment of pausing, right? You have more intention and consideration. And I think that again is what leads to a healthier mental state. I think it's kind of funny that like four people who identify as overachievers, like the achievement is to not overachiever. Yeah. That's so true. Is that like instead of doing three, you did one. Like that was your version of outperforming. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's totally true. It makes so much sense. Yeah, if you're like default state is to be like, yeah, I can do it, I can do more. Like I can always achieve more, I can always do more. I can, I have to be the best and perform the best and like stretch myself as much as possible. That's not healthy. No. It's not healthy. And guys, like I have to say at the end of that, you know, 10 year period when we had to shut down embrace, I was in the worst place of my life. Like I had a complete mental and physical breakdown. Menty B. Yes. As we say. Yes, totally. Menty B. It was like, I didn't even know that my mind could be that fragile. Like up to that point, I thought I'm invincible. I could take on anything, you know, and then that happened. I was like, oh, wow, it took me probably a good year and a half to recover from that. And I realized through that that like when we drive that hard, you know, and unhealthy ways, yeah, you can burn bright for a while. And then you totally burn out. Yes. And then what? You know, and so for me and my career now, like, I know I want to have impact for the rest of my life. I want to have sustainable impact. So how do I take care of myself day to day such that that's possible? Yes. You know, and I don't wish that upon anybody that they get to that such a low place to learn this, right? And so if we can care for ourselves even in small ways, I think that really leads to our ability to do all the things we want to do over the long run. Mm-hmm. It's really clicking for me. There's this saying for high achievers, like what has gotten you here will not help you get to where you want to be next. And all of this is the context is making so much sense because for the last, I don't know, decade, it's like pushing so hard and like holding things with your hands gripped, white, knuckled, teeth clenched to get through it, to grind and work so hard. But coming out the other side, there's a mendeebie or there's a breakdown. But getting to the next level of where we want to be for growth means letting go. Totally. And there's this beautiful thing I've discovered in surrender, right? Like control is illusion. In illusion that we think we can control everything. And we can't like look what happened during COVID, right? And so to me, success looks very different today than it did in the past. before success was all about external. outcomes. Today's success for me is about living my values. You know, I saw you guys did a post on this recently. I loved it. You know, it's like, am I living with love every day? Am I giving to others? Am I growing? These are all things I can control. Yeah. Right. So if I give something my all, that's the best I can do. And then I kind of have to let go of the rest. I have so many thoughts. Yeah. Please. So on the concept of control, I think I saw a TikTok recently where someone said, like, you know, we want everything to be in our control because we're trying to optimize things, right? We're so used to trying to make things as good as they can possibly be because that's just our, you know, operating mode. But what what happens when you do that is you don't leave room for like serenity. Yes. They're different. You don't leave room for like magical things that can happen that it's like, you kind of need a little bit of a situation that's out of your control in some ways. Like you can't, you're trying to make it the best situation that's possible. But sometimes you can't imagine the best situation possible. Like it might be something that's outside of your imagination. So like, sometimes you need to have situations where you can let that happen totally. And that's exactly what happened within embrace, just like closing the loop on that was for 10 years I was trying to control everything. And we just kept encountering like all these setbacks. And then, you know, we had to shut down the company. And the minute I let go of control, magic started to happen, you know, like Tony Robbins came in out of nowhere and saved the company. You never expected that in a million years. And so now, you know, my, my belief, as I said, is giving something you're all. And then you, you surrender the outcome. So like, in the writing of my book, I was getting really overwhelmed leading up to the launch because at all these overachievers telling me, you have to make this a best seller. And, you know, that means you have to sell this many books and do this and that. And I just was feeling really overwhelmed. And so friend came to visit me in Honolulu where I live. And we had a little ceremony. And I only had one copy of the book at that point. And I, the Ruaid in the ocean. This is funny. I love that. And it was so beautiful. It's symbolic. Yeah. I was like, I gave this my soul. And now I give it to the universe. And, you know, I watched as the waves kind of carried it. And I thought, that's what I wanted. I'm going to trust that the wave will take this message to where it needs to get a copy of it. I was like, I needed it now. I didn't later, like, I, you know, I plucked it out after. My friend and I actually, like, burned it and buried it under a tree. We had this whole thing. It was very beautiful. I didn't like that. But it was just like, there's something so beautiful about surrender. Right? That, again, I think helps us with our, with our mental well-being. And coming back to what you said, I think you hit the nail on the head. So Tony Robbins says that he says, success without fulfillment is the ultimate failure. And how many people do we know who outwardly are so successful, but are empty on the inside, or chasing something, or chasing the fulfillment, but it's not there. Right. I think that's the, the disconnect or the misalignment. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. They're always comparing themselves to the next person. And as I said, the goal code post keeps moving. So happiness is just like this illusion. It's this thing that you can never attain. And back to the idea that you said of like self-compassion of that being like, really important. When you were saying that whole thing, I had this really strong image in my mind, where I imagined like us as like a glass ball. And self-compassion is like the layers of like plastic coating, like bouncy rubber coating that you put on the glass ball. So that like if you, you know, fault if you fail, then you don't, the glass ball doesn't break. Right. Like you're just like, oh, that's okay. Like I will literally bounce back. Yeah. I can, it doesn't matter. Like the outcome of this one speech doesn't determine who I am. Yeah. Because I already am sure of who I am. Right. I know I'm amazing in these ways. Exactly. And whether or not, like if it goes badly, then that's a fluke or like it went badly for whatever reason. It doesn't matter. I'm not my, my, you know, my ego or my, my conception of myself that is this glass ball doesn't shatter. I love that. It's untangling your achievement with your identity. Yep. From your identity. Yeah. Yes. We are worth more than the sum of our achievements. Yeah. Right. We are worth more than how many likes we get on social media. And I really worry about this with a younger generation. Right. That they put a post out there and they don't get that many likes and it like destroys their sense of self. Yeah. You know. So I think this, this idea of resilience, I love that rubber ball image. But that's even more important in today's world. Yeah. So Jane, to wrap up with something more tactical for our audience in your memoir, are you right? We cannot heal what we cannot feel. But what about people who've been numb for so long or pushing aside the emotion, sweeping it under the rug, and they don't even know where to start. How do you begin to feel again? Again, taking that time to pause and sit in stillness. And at first, you might not feel very much. I certainly didn't. But the more I sat with myself, the more I'd start to feel little sensations. And that's the thing. Every emotion is correlated to a physical sensation. So can we start tuning into that? And can we allow ourselves like the grace and be patient enough with ourselves that we do that slowly? That's the first thing I would suggest. The second, which I said earlier, is really about the power of community. Healing doesn't happen in isolation. And so the more we can surround ourselves with whether it's friends, therapists, teachers that can create that sense of safety for us, then the nervous system relaxes enough to start feeling and to access those emotions. So these are small practices, but there are things that have been really, really huge in my life. Okay, so last question, Jane, is can you tell us a little bit more about what you're working on today, and then also where we can find you online and where people can find like a wave we break? Sure. Yeah, so I stepped down from embrace in May. We finally reached our goal of saving a million babies as of this year. Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah, it's like inconceivable. Yeah. So it feels so good. And it feels so good to say that doesn't define all of who I am. And I think what I'm most proud of is actually learning how to embrace myself. And so what I'm moving into now is leadership coaching and development. And really teaching all of the things that I've learned in my journey, both with embrace and my healing journey to others, to help them step into their fullest selves, for them to step into alignment, to teach how do you feel your feelings? You know, and so these are old tools that I have gained so much from and I feel so passionate about doing this with others. And so I'm doing that both by going to corporate level and on an individual level as well. And so for people who are interested in that, my website is jainmariechen.com. I've got lots of resources there for people who want to go down a development or a healing path. And then, yeah, you can reach out to me there or any increase on the leadership coaching as well. Amazing. I feel like you're a professor or a lecturer. Like, if you have like a course on this, I'm like, people would do office hours for sure. This was office hours for us. Honestly, I mean, you're a guru. You've studied under the, you've literally studied under the best. I feel so lucky and I feel like writing the book. I got to bring a little piece of all my teachers into the writing of the book. So for those interested in picking up the book, it's called like a wave we break. It's available at any bookstore and on Amazon. I really hope you guys get something out of it, but it's a message that that truly came from the depths of my soul. Yeah, it's a beautiful book. And there's a lot of learnings in it too. A lot of takeaways. Awesome. Thank you so much here. Hey guys. So it's come to my attention that many of you don't know Jean and I have a matcha brand called Sisters Matcha that we created and founded ourselves. What? No way. A matcha brand? Yeah. We started it in October, 2024. Jean and I have worked and lived on this matcha farm in Japan. It's sourced from Wazuka, Japan, which is an hour and a half outside of Kyoto and the brand means the world to us. It is a small family-owned farm and we actually travel back to the farm and handpick the matcha ourselves. So you can find out more about Sisters Matcha to try it, check it out, buy it, buy it, finally, buy it. SistersMatcha.com that's SistersMatcha.com and already back to the show. Woo, and we're back. Wow, Sherie. That was a powerful episode. I mean, we said it in the conversation with Jane to her face. We warned you. Well, I mean, we said it to her face and I'll say it again. I think this is one of the most important conversations we've had on Tiger Sisters because people don't talk about it and also like honestly at that level of CEO, founder, Harvard, Stanford, Accolade, like those people don't talk about it and it looks so beautiful, so shiny on the outside. But like, you know, we've heard you guys need it the most. Come on. We be hurting on the inside. I don't know. It's like it was such a good conversation because it really peels back the layers. And I don't think we really talk about the sacrifice. it takes to run towards something that you love. And I think it can look really gorgeous and amazing on the outside, but on the inside, people are working through things. - Yeah. I mean, do you have any takeaways that you wanna share? - The conversation really resonated with me when Jane talked about slowing down. - Okay. - Because I am such a go-go-go person. I have so much trouble slowing down. And that often might be a coping mechanism, right? And when you're grinding, whether it's at work, your hobbies, your friends, your passion, whatever, oftentimes you're doing the most because the second that you slow down and sit on a freaking beach and have no distractions, you're like, "Oh, I'm in my thoughts." And, "Oh, that's really scary." And, "Oh, why do I go back to this repeating thought in my head?" And so I think the meditation, the slowing down that Jane talks about, it's important to weave that into your every day, if possible, having a moment of introspection daily, weekly, at least having a practice of it. Because if you ignore it for too long, like Jane, there might be a point of reckoning where she talks about having a mentee be and actually needing to find herself in very extreme ways 'cause she's never had the mindfulness practice daily in her life the way that she now does. - Yeah, I actually, reflecting on it, it is really brave of her to put herself out there like that and almost, especially in like Asian culture, you're supposed to save face, like you're not supposed to reveal your failures. - Or your problems, your problems, hardships. - And you're, it's just considered to be really embarrassing. So I respect her all the more for really revealing herself and sharing, she's like, "I had a mental breakdown. I had a physical breakdown." She's like, "I needed to escape to the other side of the world." She's like, "I injected myself with frog venom, with frog poison." - Frog poison in order to try to find myself. She was like, "I was so effed up that I needed to try every single modality of therapy that I could find." - I really respect Jane and admire her because writing her book, coming on our podcast and talking about all these things that, these emotional turmoils and things that are happening behind the scenes, like in her head, it is helping so many more people and making it more okay to talk about because it, my goal is that I love Jane on the podcast because if one person feels less lonely in their life because they've seen this conversation, if you are in a hard space, I'm like, this makes it so worth it. - Okay, I actually just wanna read out some of the quotes from the episode from Jane that I wrote down. She said, "The concept of achievement as a coping response and as a trauma response to your childhood." I mean, that hits so, so deep because I mean, the need to do more and be more and prove more, it can be really good to help propel you and give you that determination towards a goal, but Jane also talks about having a dark shadow. It's like, to me, it's like a very thin line. It's like at one point, you can use it to help you, but at another point, like the other side of the coin is that like, it can also really drag you down and give you so much pressure. - Yeah, it's the shadow analogy is interesting because you're like, oh, you're suppressing the shadow, you don't ever want that shadow to come out and take over. - Yes, but it might always be there, too. - Yeah. - If you push yourself too far, or if it comes from an unhealthy place. - Yeah, and then the way to address that is by doing these wellness practices, like you said, reflecting on yourself and meditation and slowing down. - It's doing the work to be like, I'm achieving a lot, but also asking yourself, where does my need to achieve come from? And if it comes from a place that you're comfortable with, good on you, use that as the grit and courage to leap into the thing you want to do. But if it's coming from a place to prove out something to the exterior world, it can be the darker side of the shadow. - Okay, let me hit you with another quote, I have more. So she says, as a child, you wonder what's wrong with me? And you carry that into adulthood, into what she calls the sense of not enoughness. - Why did that resonate with you? - You good? Say more. - Okay, the next quote. - Wait, why did you pick out that quote? - Because I connect with it. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Okay, one last quote I'm going to share with you from Jane is she says, my pain became my purpose. - Again, what about this quote resonated with you? - Well, she's just saying that all of her childhood difficulties is what drove her to be so excellent. And that's what drove her to even set this goal for herself of saving a million babies, right? She was saying that these babies who are primis are the most vulnerable people in the world. And she was like, my goal is to help them because no one else is helping them in the developing world. - Yeah, I mean, that's really beautiful because her purpose came from maybe a place of pain and hurt, but she developed like an incredible mission and vision that came out of a bad place. And so, I mean, the takeaway there for me is that something beautiful came from something not beautiful and she was able to really make such big impact for the people around her and around the world. - Yeah. - And the last thing I'll say about this episode before we wrap up is just that I think it is so brave and so incredible that Jane was able to go on this really deep healing journey. And I think what's great is that we can learn from her healing journey, which was over the course of years. Like it wasn't just like she took a two week sabbatical break from work and was able to find herself. Like she really did the thing and spent years doing it, learning all these different modalities, learning from all these different sort of like masters of different therapy, types of therapy. And I think what's helpful for us to take away and for the audience is that I would just kind of ask you like what would it look like if you went on a healing journey of your own? Like you don't even have to plan it or be like I am gonna do a healing journey, but what would that look like? To even just like consider it is something that I think most people have never done. Yeah. I mean, also consider the tools that Jane used as well. Like meditation, journaling, speaking to a trusted person, a trusted adult, a trusted person, a therapist. I think it's, there's a lot to take away from the healing journey she went on and how we may apply that to our own lives. And she talks about all these different books that she read and used as part of her journey, which we are going to list out and link so that everyone can refer to these books. - Thank you guys so much for tuning in to this director's cut episode with Jane Marie Chen. We'll catch you next time on Tiger Sisters. Bye. (upbeat music)