Why’s everybody going to Japan?

(upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Can you just introduce yourself? - Yes, my name is Lisa. I am living in Tokyo. I grew up in Tokyo, I was born here, but I sound like this because I went to school in the States as well. I spent about four years in Philly and five or six years in Seattle. - Got it. And so you wrote in with questions which I really enjoyed. Can you tell me what your question is and how you came to it? - Yes, my question was, why is every single person I know going to Japan or talking about going to Japan? And this question drives me crazy. I think that I tried to sound overly chill when I asked you this question, but actually it's not chill at all, you know, PJ. And I think to give you the full context, is it okay if I share you my screen? I have an Excel sheet that I want to show you. - Yeah, yeah, absolutely. - So the reason why it's not chill at all is this a-- what is this spreadsheet? - This is a spreadsheet of every single visitor that has visited me since November 2022. - This is insane. - And we hold on, hold on, hold on. We really need to slow down here. You're scrolling through, there's so many tables and cells. How many people have visited you in total since November 2022? - If you count people who weren't my guests, but I kind of contributed to their experience for, that's 119 people. - Oh my god, do you have graphs? - Yes. - Sorry, how many? - 119 people have visited me since November 2022. - That's right. And if you count only my personal guests, that's 96 guests. - That's crazy. - If you average that out, that's actually one person every five days. That's 20% of my days since November 2022 that's been filled with someone visiting me from maybe the US or Europe. Both the fact of the frequency as wild and the exactness of your documentation as wild. - Thank you. - It's a guest visit calendar in November 2022, to April 26th. And it's every single day of your life and whether someone was visiting me. - Yes, that's exactly right. And as you can see, the green cells are when I had a visitor and especially, I think, around 2023 and 2025, this was taking over my life, PJ. Like I was spending all of my free time, either planning what I would do with people that are visiting or helping them figure out their itineraries for when they're in Japan, like answering questions. Like I love everyone that visited, don't get me wrong. But I felt like I was spending so much time as like a personal tour guide. - This is the picture just a visual image because it's on this calendar that you've shared. The days without visitors are white and the days with visitors are green. And just the sheer amount of green squares. It's a data visualization of an out-of-control problem. - Yes, I'm so surprised what I'm seeing. Did you know, like I understand that part of the reason American tourism to Japan has spiked is just like economic, but I feel like it is not just economic. Do you have an understanding as someone who has lived in both cultures? What happened to make Japan so cool to Americans? - Yeah, this is something I want to know too. I originally thought that maybe at first it started out with the K-pop hype and then kind of a more interested in general and the Asia's, but I'm not sure that that counts for such a huge spike in tourists in Japan. So if you have the answer to this, I would love to know. - Because it's funny, like countries kind of get crushes on each other so much. Like one country will just decide another country represents like suspicion or she thinks or whatever. And like I feel like I've been a part of and observed at the same time that we've happened from America to Japan. We're all of a sudden it's like Japanese clothes and like Japanese food and Japanese pop culture is like what the people I know see more curious about. We definitely teenagers here see more curious about. And it's like you want somebody who can say to the extent that question is even answerable, like here's what happened. - Yeah, that's exactly right. (upbeat music) Okay, so this week we take on Lisa's question, which I have to say appealed to me because it was a question I've had. People on our show have also had why, both in my real life and on social media, does it seem like so many people are going to Japan? It used to be rare. We had our theories at the show, but what we wanted for answers. This week, the real origin story of an international crush after this break. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Welcome back to the show. Why are so many people going to Japan? This question it turns out belongs to my favorite genre. The kind of question you can ask at a dinner party and know that there's a good chance it'll redirect conversation for about 45 minutes. Because obviously there's lots of reasons some visit Japan, but what happens is every person at the dinner becomes convinced that they are the one who is deduced the reason. And dinner turns for me in a fun way into Japanese tourism supply and demand court with each person prosecuting a different case. It's a cheap currency. It's Pokemon. It was lost in translation. Guilty, guilty. Probably not guilty. But the thing is, talk is cheap. We wanted real answers here. And so we invented a patented method to try to assess them out, a two-part test. We decided that first we would talk to experts on Japan and America. Find out what the experts thought was going on. But then we would check that expert work against our own listener survey. To see if the reasons the experts said tourists were all going to Japan, match the reasons the tourists said they were going to Japan. Science ask. So let's begin. Can you say your name and what you do? Yes, my name is Roland Nozomo-Kelz. I'm a Japanese-American author and editor and scholar professor at Washington University. And I'm producing a film right now. What's the film? It's a documentary about Osamutezuka, the god of manga, and the father of anime. It sounds like you stay busy. I do. Where am I currently speaking to you from? Where are you? I'm in Tokyo. And how long have you lived in Tokyo? 26 years. And before that? Osaka. And before Osaka, I lived in New York City for about 10 years. So you grew up in America but moved to Japan when you were pretty young? Well, yeah. Not exactly. I went to kindergarten in Morioka, Japan, which is where my grandparents lived. And so I was here when I was five and a half. And then I used to come back to Japan every summer with my mother, who is Japanese. Got it. Roland was an ideal person to talk to, both because he's written about the question we're asking. And also because his roots in both countries have given him a kind of cultural double vision. He can see Japan from an American perspective, but also vice versa. Roland will tell you that the American poll towards Japan has happened for a variety of reasons. Reasons we will explain in a helpful numerical in order to list. The very first one, and for Roland's the foremost, is one that to me at first sounded a little squishy, and then as he explained it, persuasive. Reason number one, Japan's culture of storytelling. I often say that Japan is very poor in natural resources. There's no oil here, very little land. You could grow rice, but only in these tiny rice paddies. It's a small country. But it's very rich in stories. The storytelling culture in Japan is astonishing. In fact, most academics and critics would say that the first novel in world history is the tale of Genji, which is Japanese. It's 1,000 years old. Stories in Japan are really amazing. And I think through the internet and through manga and anime, the rest of the world discovered that the storytelling is astonishing. Stories. This is the beginning part of Roland's thesis for what's going on here. And he told me Western fascination with Japanese storytelling, transmitted via Japanese culture, that's not something that began as I'd assumed in the '90s. According to Roland, there've already been two prior waves of this. One was in the late 19th century, driven largely by Europeans, this movement called the Japanese, or Japanese, particularly the French, but other parts of Europe were drawn to Japanese woodblock prints, which weirdly enough were, they were kind of low culture, just like manga, or Japanese comics, or low culture. These woodblock prints were disposable. They were printed on mass, and they were used often to wrap Japanese ceramics or other valuable goods when they were shipped to Europe. These Europeans took off the wrapping paper, you know, it'd be like putting newspapers around delicate objects, and they discovered that, wow, this wrapping is just beautiful stunning. A big difference, though, is that it was mostly the upper classes and the estates who were drawn to Japan at that time. So in 1867, I think, was the world's fair in Paris, and Japan had a booth or a platform, and they presented all these Japanese visual arts, and the Europeans were smitten. And so you had the Van Gogh and Degas, Monet, taking influence from these Japanese prints. And so that was in the late 19th century, and then you had another wave, second wave in the 50s and 60s, when the beatnicks and the hippies were drawn to concepts, very loose concepts of Buddhism from Japan, this notion of letting things happen, and not always being the agent of your own story, but accepting the universe as it is in Nirvana, and you know, concepts that were not exclusively Japanese, but were delivered through Japanese imagery and Japanese novels and poetry. So again, it was sort of high art, or at least a concept of high art that Westerners imagined was Japanese. So what's different now is that it's clearly pop culture that is driving this current wave. And I'm not really that philosophical about it, I think it's very specifically commercial. There was a huge hit series called Pokemon that emerged in the late 1990s, almost simultaneously with another hit manga and anime series called Dragon Ball. And those emerged in the late 90s, roughly the same time that Studio Ghibli, the studio of the great Hayao Miyazaki, they made a deal with Walt Disney Corporation for distribution of Miyazaki's films, including My Neighbor Totoro, which became kind of an iconic film for young Americans. And that explosion in the mid to late 1990s occurred at the time the internet was exploding. So the combination of the technology that could bring Japanese media into living rooms and bedrooms around the US and around the world, and these particular hit series and hit films brought the genius of Japanese storytelling and visual art into the bedrooms and living rooms of Americans. And that transformed American's image of Japan. It's funny, I mean, it's the way that sometimes historically America has charmed other places. It's like our pop culture, you know, it's like our movies show up, it's like our dreams show up in another place and then people become enamored with those dreams and they become curious about the people who have them. No, absolutely. The phrase soft power was coined by an American professor, Joseph Nye from Harvard. He published an essay examining how the US was winning the Cold War with the Soviet Union, partly because the US had this great soft power. And what he meant by soft power was Hollywood movies, Levi's jeans, Marilyn Monroe, James Dean, rock and roll, Elvis Presley, that made America look much more attractive than the Soviet Union. And of course, that phrase is applicable to Japan in the 21st century. It's a kind of power. Japan is so attractive. So, Roland Keltz's explanation begins with the fact that the West has always had these periodic waves of interest in Japan. It's just that the most recent one carried this time via pop culture, via TV and the internet is the largest. So start with reason number one, soft power, the allure of Japanese culture and stories. But we know that soft power alone is not sufficiently explanatory because Japanese culture has always been red. But if you were alive before the year 1990, you will remember Americans once had a very different view of Japanese culture. To talk about this part of the story, I need to pull away this drop cloth under which I've been hiding this whole time, a second expert. Sure, I'm David Marks, I'm the author of three books, including Amatura, How Japan Saved American Style, and I live in Tokyo. How long have you lived in Tokyo? For more than two decades. David Marks, unlike our first expert, was not born into any kind of relationship with Japan. And the way he discovered one, it actually highlights how different our two countries used to be. So to explain, David grew up in Pensacola, Florida, a town which happens to be sister cities with a small mountain town in Japan called Garo, which meant when David was 17 in 1986, he got to do a brief summer exchange in Japan and promptly fell in love with the country. An experience he points out, which was very rare for Americans at the time. Because the truth is, for the seven decades after World War II, America was not at all Japan and felt like. In fact, until recently, the mainstream view here was pretty Japanophobic. So if you go back to the narrative of Japan in the United States in the 20th century, obviously it was an enemy state until 1945, and then it was kind of seen as a developing country that was being rebuilt. Not a great deal can be done to change the thinking of an adult nation. Their minds have been conditioned by years of militarism and Emperor worship. So the future of Japan as a democracy lies in her children. It is here that the seeds of democracy must be firmly planted. And then by the 70s and 80s, you started getting the American anxiety towards Japanese economic prowess and business practices. That's what I remember growing up with. Like I remember reading some Michael Critan book after Jurassic Park that was like raising sun. The step aside, I have no trouble. This is police business. I don't seem like nobody's. Yeah, and they were the bad guys the way like today, I think the only bad guy book you could write like that would maybe be Russia, but it was like they're scary bad guys and we should be scared of them. Yeah, I mean, so in the 80s, this starts to be anxiety about Japanese electronics and cars and the fact that they may surpass the United States in terms of being the number one economy in the world. And then by the late 80s and early 90s, that actually becomes that kind of Michael Critan tension where is Japan the next bad guy. There was a famous CIA position paper that came out after the Cold War ended in which someone positive maybe Japan should be our next enemy. We didn't go that far. The US government didn't exactly adopt that, but there was a lot of anxiety about it. And then I think in the 90s, there was almost some relief that the Japanese economy started to fail. Consumers not buying an economy mired in recession and politicians promising change to people short of cash. Sound familiar? Well, it's not the United States we're talking about this time. It's Japan. Japan has mostly itself to blame for the economic slump. The government's easy money policies in the late 1980s filled a boom in stock and land prices and speculative investment. Now infamous bubble economy. And so this worry about the Japanese economy went down, but it was kind of still seen as uncool that Japan maybe has all this traditional culture and it has all these copies of Western culture, but it's not particularly that interesting. And even being here in let's say 2003, when I moved here, if a friend came to Japan, it would be this huge event for the year. Yeah. Oh my god, someone has come to Japan because it was just nobody came. It just wasn't a tourist spot at all. Given we've heard about our listener at Lisa with her full calendar and her 119 visitors, this all seems unimaginable now, but the numbers bear it out. If you go back to the early 2000s, the graph of foreign tourism to Japan is pretty much the exact opposite of today, meaning a country that experienced a teensy amount of tourists, a trickle. Three Japanese people took a trip out of the country for every foreigner who visited. And that's the Japan David Marx lived in for his first decade as a resident. He was a lonely American enthusiast in a country most people he knew would never want to come visit. In 2011, about a decade into David Marx's time in Japan, only six million foreign visitors came, which is what the US got this month alone. Whatever signal of coolness, of storytelling, of culture, Japan transmits to the rest of the world, something was blocking that signal, at least for almost everyone, but David. And so you, I mean, this is such a funny way to put it, but like you liked Japan before it was cool. I think one of the things I'm trying to track in this conversation with you is like the rise of a country being considered cool by another country, which feel so subjective, although as you start to lay out these markers, you can actually look at American pop culture and see one country change the estimation of another. Yeah, I mean, the other part of this that is hard to understand if you're under the age of 40 is just the incredible amount of propaganda. I mean, it felt like propaganda looking back that you got from MTV about America is the coolest country in the world and the reason the Soviet Union collapses because people wanted blue jeans and wanted to listen to Michael Jackson and everybody wants to be American and Americans effortlessly are the most stylish people on earth. And so, you know, especially when I went to Japan in '98 for the first time, everyone was dressed, you know, a hundred times better than I'd ever seen in the United States. I mean, everyone, it's just you walked on down the street, it's like how is everyone dressed as well. And the consumer society just seems so much more robust. It just the scale of it seems so big and it really broke my brain because I realized that the message I had gotten about how permanently cool the United States was and that cultural leadership wasn't quite true, that there was actually something going on in Japan, but no one had really seen it because no one was over in Japan, so there was very little reporting of what was going on there. So, David Marx started actually trying to rigorously study coolness, one of humanity's more elusive topics. He has now pursued questions like, why were Japanese youth in Harajuku dressing so much more fashionably than American youth in Manhattan in the 1990s? And he's been able to arrive at, I believe, pretty convincing answers. He has also looked at the big question, why was Japan uncooled to Americans and why did that change? In 2003, when I moved here, Japanese artists at that time were using the same materials as Western culture and so they're designing T-shirts, whichever American new and wearing sneakers in a cool way and they are sampling old jazz records or doing things like hip hop but slightly off. I mean, so I think they were operating in the same zone as American culture, as when you saw it, it seemed very strange, but it was speaking in those elements that you were expecting from American culture at the time. That's such a good description of something I've experienced, but would not be able to articulate is often it felt like, oh, these are people playing in our forms or at least forms we like with elements we like, but they're putting them together in a way that feels really different and it's familiar and novel in a way that like draws me in. It's like often times an experience I've had across that cultural transmission. Yeah, I mean, even the name Donkey Kong, it's like we vaguely understand that those are two words we know, but no American would put those together. Yeah, and I mean, I used to feel like playing Mario. It felt like just like such a funny mix of like a dream that American would have with elements that wouldn't have been in the dream. Exactly. So imagine that across culture and also imagine that this has been bubbling for decades in Japan and no one has seen it. And so in the 90s and early 2000s, it started exploding into the US because there's now a way to actually get access to it and people are quite fascinated, I think, for the right reasons and then it just grows. So that's reason number two, Americans stopped being afraid of Japan and fell in love with the country because its culture was just different enough from ours to make us scratch our heads. But those reasons do not explain how this trend became super charged. After this short break, the craziness begins. Welcome back to the show. Reason number three, tourism to Japan took off. I don't say this often, but for once is because of a government plan. A conspiracy, except not really because this was in the open. The plan starts fitfully in Japan in 2003. Then Prime Minister Junuchiro Kazumi launches a campaign called visit Japan. The goal is to get from 5 million yearly visitors to 10 million. The campaign launches with this advertisement which if anyone outside of Japan had made it, I think would have been considered borderline problematic. This is their music not ours. And if you're picturing a montage of gaysha's applying white makeup, cherry blossoms, temples, the world's most stereotypical procession of Japanese imagery, as imagined by a western eye, you are picturing things for actually. But this campaign fell short. Japan may have been an attractive place to visit, but it was too expensive. But then, in the early 2010s, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe returned to office. And Abe does something very consequential. He deliberately drives down the value of the yen. He's doing this to help Japanese exports, not to bring in foreigners. But by pushing this button, he makes everything in Japan cheaper to outsiders. Hotel rooms, restaurant meals, here's wrong counts. You know, you come to Tokyo, you can get a full, beautiful, excellent, soba lunch meal for under $10. I'm not exaggerating, by the way, under $10. I mean, last time I was in New York in May, she kicked an apple and a banana for $10. So, I mean, it's become attractive partly because it's less expensive. Japan has become less expensive, cheaper for foreigners. Remember, that was due to government intervention. And Abe, wanting to juice these numbers even more, now deploys more measures to further sweeten his country's outsiders. In 2013, he relaxes tourist visa requirements for visitors from Thailand and Malaysia. Soon after, he does the same for visitors from China and Indonesia, which, perhaps unsurprisingly, summons a ton of Asian tourists. Here's David Marx, who is living there at the time. Asian tourists were the first major boom. So in the 2010s, people from Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Korea, start coming into Japan. And that really changes the city and it makes it internationalize. And suddenly, there's English menus at every restaurant, which didn't exist before. And then you start getting more European and American tourists after that. I think, you know, a little bit pre-COVID and now after COVID, just exploding. And I do think there was just a word of mouth, almost campaign for Japanese tourism, which is that every person I met who would come here for the first time, because it was incredible. It was like a 99% satisfaction rate with their time in Japan. And so you could understand they would go back home and tell everyone around them, oh my god, Japan is incredibly up to go. And then they would plot their return to Japan as well. And so it's kind of spreading word of mouth. David Marx has now had a front row seat to the remarkable effect of all this word of mouth. Back in 2003, the year he arrived, Japan had had about 5 million annual foreign visitors. 20 years later, 2023, the first full year that are listener Lisa Charded, 5 million visitors. Just two years later, that number had already nearly doubled. 42 million. The momentum has just become research. So much so that plenty of Japanese people now believe operation visit Japan has over 60 dead. We foreigners just love Japan too much. And of course, we foreigners cannot stop posting about our order. So you want to get to Tokyo for the low? Well, you came to the right place. This is how you get flights to Japan for cheapest I flew to Japan from LA for only $500 round trip. Today I'll be flying with zip air, which is a budget airline. You can literally get $2,000 tickets for just 800 bucks. Just take this whole story of the third wave also tracks with the rise of Instagram and TikTok in the mid and late 2010s. You can call social media reason number four, which I'm only not going into more detail on because we all get it and it's not that interesting. But I will say, to post a photo of a place online at all, the place first has to make you feel something which leads us to reason number five. Actually, the hardest thing to describe about Japan on a podcast and I think the easiest things to notice as a visitor, the feeling you get as an outsider, wouldn't you just experience how functional it is? Like toilets in Japan are so damn clean. Like how is this even possible? The infrastructure is amazing if you have a car and you don't really need one. But if you have a car, the roads are amazing. You don't have to worry about potholes. The public transportation will literally take you anywhere that you need to go. And deal with crazy, bro. Is everything is on time. A lot of different factors, I think, have contributed to the tourism. of attraction. But the most important one is functionality. What do you mean? Well, a lot of countries around the world, particularly the US, have become dysfunctional. And I say that in terms of public space, the parks are dirty and dangerous, the railway system is atrocious. Yeah. The airports are a mess. And when you're in Japan, things just work. I'm jumping in here just to say that what Roland just said is in my experience, but it's extremely true. And also, the kind of thing that I can imagine bothering some people who are listening, because I think to American ears, hearing somebody complain about public disorder, a dirty subway, a crowded city pool can just sound very elitist to rich people. If you don't like it here, move to the suburbs, join a country club. But what's funny is that in Japan, the idea that you would want the subway to be clean isn't elitist. It's actually sort of the opposite. Why shouldn't public things be nice? Why should anyone want to opt out for a private option, pay for a noob or? Once you get used to this flip in thinking, you get to have a very surreal experience. Walking around Tokyo, you just don't see trash on the street. Not even cigarette butts. You don't smell urine or feces, animal or human. Public spaces in Japan are kept about as clean as private ones. For an American, visiting this is just such a new experience. I don't think it's why anyone visits the first time, but I bet it's why some people go back. It's part of why I wanted to. In America, one way you can show you care about society is to ride the dirty subway. In Japan, one way you can show you care about society is to be really invested in the subway being clean. Japan is a democratic, pluralistic society that also has these socialist underpinnings. You should have clean, safe parks. Of course you get an education. Of course you have health care. It's not like people are debated. It's a kind of civility that I think is very, very attractive in 2026. That was the thing I found most shocking the first time I visited was the level of function felt. It's funny. It didn't make me think why isn't America like this? It made me think how is it possible that Japan is like this, but just like to be on a public train that is more clean than my bedroom. What you're saying at least fits my own experience of rising in Japan is just like, whoa, this just seems to work and it's nice to really visit a place that seems to work. Well, there are codes of behavior in Japan and they don't suit everybody. I mean, you get on a railway carriage, a train car, and you just keep your voice down or you don't speak. Yeah. You get on an elevator, crowded elevator, and you're with a friend of yours or your partner, and when you get on the elevator, you shut up. They're kind of bottom-up codes, which is very attractive to me because I don't like top-down authority. So I like the fact that when you're in Japan, you learn how to behave and you do it on your own. There's no cop hovering over you telling you to do this or do that. You just notice that everybody else is doing this, so you're going to do it. And it's not for everyone. I mean, just literally yesterday, I was in a cafe with a Russian woman who has lived in Japan for a number of years. She's totally fluent in Japanese. And she was explaining her project to me at this cafe and the place was packed. And she has a very loud voice. And this guy who has two tables away from us stood up and in English, even though we were speaking Japanese in English, he said, "Will you please keep your voice lower?" And because she's lived here, she looked at him and said, "Ah, Simeon Sen." Which is, you know, I'm sorry, or excuse me. And she followed his request and lowered her voice. And we actually moved to another table to be away from him. So we wouldn't bother. He was trying to read. But what was interesting to me is I thought, you know, if this happened in New York, I could imagine her saying to him, "You shut the F up and sit down and don't bother me." Which would be following the rules of this place. Exactly. And I would totally respect her if she said that. And if the guy insisted, then I might even stand up and say, "Hey, sit down or go to another cafe." Yeah. And she has a loud voice, which is a problem. But in Japan, she heard him. She looked him straight in the eye and she said, "Simeon Sen, I'm sorry." But it did occur to me, like, this would be completely different in New York. It would be confrontational. So there's also in Japan, this desire to avoid conflict and to harmonize somehow. And that can have its dark sides. I mean, some of the most vicious fights I've seen in bars have been in Japan because when the pressure cooker explodes, oh boy, like, you know, and I'm not the only one to say this. I've had a long friendship with Haruki Murakami, the novelist. And Haruki once said to me, "You know, I love the Japanese people, but they scare me." And I said, "Why?" And he said, because if someone told him to go to war tomorrow, they'd do it. Because of this desire for like consensus and harmony, I think that's what he meant. Yeah. And I also think he was referring to a kind of repressed violence. And it's something that like, I guess you would see more as a person who lives in the culture than a person who visits it. Because of what you're describing is a status quo mainly of harmony in order with occasional like the suppression of aggression coming out in a much more amplified way. That's just not something that you see on your five-day trip to like Tokyo and Osaka. Not usually. I mean, unless you're unlucky in the wrong bar at the wrong time. You could see it. Different cultures have different values. And the things in American tourists is likely to appreciate in Japan more order, maybe more harmony. A Japanese person might say, "Yes, those things are true." And there's another side to them. There's nuance, certainly, to all of this. Even the idea which you'll hear a lot that Japan is safer than America. It's true on the level of crime statistics, but I'm sure we have Japanese listeners who have experiences that don't map to those numbers. Every place is complicated. Okay. Have we made it across the slightly delicate or bridge of observing cultural differences? Maybe? If we have, I'd like to take us to the sixth and final reason that our experts offered as to why foreign visitors are visiting Japan. The final element in our perfect storm. It's actually Japanese craft. There's a term "shokunin" in Japanese, which is basically a craft person. Somebody who makes something really, really well, or who is a great, great chef. They know how to make great sushi. They don't have to make great ramen. And it's revered here, still, even in 2026. And I think it does date back to the Edo era from the 17th century. This hierarchy in Japan, where people who make things and can actually execute and do something are superior to merchants who just sell stuff. A really great guy in the anime industry once said to me that Japanese people, if they're going to do business overseas, they need to understand the Walmart model. And I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "Well, in America, the merchant, the company that delivers or sells the good is number one. Nobody cares who actually made the good." No. He said, "So, if you go into Walmart, you can buy a $5 pillow." And it was made by people who know nothing about pillows. They don't care about pillows. They're working in some factory in Southeast Asia or China. And he said, "That's the Walmart model." But he said in Japan, we actually think the person who made the pillow and made it really well is the most valuable person. And I often discover, you know, when I have American friends, common, they say, "I want to go to the best ramen place in your neighborhood." And so, you know, they can look it up on Google now. But we go to the ramen place and there's a line around the block and you have to purchase a ticket. And the ticket says, "You can come back at 3 p.m. and get a seat at our little ramen counter." I take them back at 3 p.m. and we have this ramen and they say to me, "Oh my God, that's the best ramen I've ever had in my life. The best soup I've ever had in my life is incredible." And sometimes, if they're business people, they say, "Why don't they franchise?" And I've interviewed enough chefs and shop owners to tell them that they don't franchise because if they franchise, they're not going to be in control of the noodles, how the noodles are cooked. They're not going to be able to control the neggie, the spring onions, where they get them, where they source them. You know, they source their spring onions from a guy named Sato who is in Chiba and he has the best spring onions and they source them from this guy and they've done it for years and they're not going to be able to control that. that if they franchise an openness shop in Yokohama, they're not gonna be able to control the quality of the pork broth, the quality of the bamboo shoots. All of this is done internally and it's very, very site-specific. If they franchise, they can't control that. But the American idea is, oh, of course you'd franchise because you can make more money, right? You can just grow, grow, grow, grow. Japan is not like that. It's not about grow, grow, grow. It's about, no, no, no, you're the crashed person. You're the person who makes it. You make the pillow really, really well. It doesn't matter who Walmart is. They're idiots. They're very low on the hierarchy. The top of the hierarchy is the guy or the girl who knows how to make an excellent pillow. - Yeah, and it's like, you know, people care about money to some degree, to different degrees everywhere. But what people tend to care about the most or a lot, at least, is status. And so if you have a place that worships the biggest merchant, you're gonna have a lot of Walmart. And if you have a place that gives more status to the best craftsmen, then you're gonna have more wonderful, small places to do something really, really well. - Exactly, and I think that is a part of the tourist attraction to Japan. - So those are the answers. - For her, our experts and their research. But we don't just blindly follow experts here. I'm not vaccinated, kidding, kidding. However, we did put out a call to the hundreds of thousands of listeners in search engine nation and asked to hear from people who have visited Japan wanting to check our work here. And once we asked, we unsurprisingly got an inbox melting number of replies, which looked like a lot to sort through. But fortunately, Piper Dumont, search engines, chief data scientists and also intern collated the responses. It turns out that our listeners reason for visiting, map insanely well onto what we've just learned. For instance, nearly half of our respondents mentioned culture. - I had always been obsessed with Japanese pop culture. I grew up binge watching a lot of anime. - I've always been into anime and video games. - You know, Nintendo consoles, Sony consoles, being a fan of Pokemon, one piece and all that. One listener sounded like he was quoting our expert David Marx verbatim. - It is both simultaneously extremely similar to and also dissimilar from any Western country that you've been to, which makes it a very unique experience. - About a quarter mentioned the weak currency. - The currency exchange rate seemed like it was the best in like 30 years. I remember reading article about that. - The Australian dollar has a very favorable exchange, right, with the yen. - We also heard a lot of people talk about craftsmanship. But what delighted me the most were the reasons that just would never have been captured by any method other than a large survey. - I got full-mo seeing so many people go and I went to see the Godzilla Museum. - Godzilla brought five listeners to Japan. I hope they got to meet him. And there were also the one-of-one responses. - I went to Japan last year to see the work of Masahiko Kamora. He is a legendary bonsai master who has what I would call three unique punk rock chainsaw approach to his trees. - I fell in love when I was 18 but I didn't realize it until over 10 years later, long after we'd lost contact. I recognized that the only way I'd ever see him again was to fly to Japan, which eventually led me to spend a magical four days in Osaka last year. - I'm six foot five and have blonde hair. And Japanese people would say, oh my God, you should go to Japan. People will step you on the street and ask for your autograph. By the way, it was not true. - There's a lot of different reasons that people do it, but I was there to honor the debt, specifically my mother who would pass the year prior. - People go to places because of other people or their memories of them. Also, maybe this shouldn't have surprised me, but I didn't expect to hear how enthusiastic some listeners sounded just talking about what Japan's functionality meant to them. Like it was a place you could go where entropy had been paused. - I took my family to Japan so they could see what a high functioning society really looks like. Where everything runs on time is perfectly clean. - It's clean, which is especially important for an age where kids like to pick things up off the ground and lick them. - They're public toilets everywhere featuring functioning bit A's, for instance, because everybody poops and poopy butts are gross. - Everything just works, it's on time. If every country treats each other with respect like the Japanese and their punctuality and how they cue over the world to be a far better place. (upbeat music) - It's funny because as broken as a place can be, I still really love America and I love a lot of what is so annoying about it. I love the sort of anarchic mix of different people with different values expressing themselves in different ways. And the general feeling that something kind of broke 10 years ago, not just politically, but like COVID, like everyone, the driving got anger, the people got anger, the elbows got harder, the people listening like TikTok videos without headphones on the subways, would be more prevalent. It's like, I both love the way people live here and it's like an eccentric friend, you know, who is starting to turn the corner from eccentric to not well. Like, it makes you understand the draw of Japan. And also that what you're saying is both, it is a distinct culture that insists on its own values on its own way of being. And also, it's a place whose public presentation is now about modeling or emphasizing things that are true about itself that people come to visit to encounter. - Yeah, I think that's a good summation. And also I should add that a lot of what you said about what makes America or the United States so attractive is equally attractive to a lot of my Japanese friends. I mean, a lot of my Japanese friends are really, really attracted to the US. They love American movies, they love American TV, they love American pop music. They are very excited when they have a chance to go to LA or Seattle or New York or Boston. - Because it's a place that is like for the same reason Americans are excited about Japanese culture because it's just a place that is different. - Yeah, different, but also, you know, it's so free. There are no codes of behavior. If you're Japanese, you don't have to behave like a Japanese if you're in midtown, you don't have to. It's all lifted off of you. I have a Japanese friend who's a very successful editor at Kondynast, Japan and she has lived in Vancouver and she's lived in New York and she actually said to me once she said, "Ah," she said, "when I'm on the plane "and it's landing in Tokyo, I get this in English," she'd say, "my shoulder sees up." And I said, "What do you mean?" She was like, "Ah, I'm coming back to Japan. "I have to follow the rules." - Right, and so it's also important to note that Orientalism has its sort of inverse, right? There's a lot of Japanese who think America's fantastic because there's no rules, there's no codes. If somebody tells you to be quiet at a cafe, you can say, "Fuck off," yeah, right? And it's fine, you can't do that here. - Yeah, it's like two places you can go to have a vacation not just from your place, but your culture. - Yeah. (bright music) - Rowan Keltz, professor at Wasada University. We'll have links to his excellent book, "Japan America" in our show notes. We will also have a link to W. David Marx's book, "Aumatorra" there as well. I recommend both. Also, thanks to all of our wonderful listeners for sending us your voice messages. I'm sorry we couldn't play them all. But we did listen to them all, and we're gonna do more of this in the future. (bright music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - "Surge Engine" is a presentation of Odyssey. It's created by me, P.J. vote, and "Truthy Pimini." Garrett Graham is our senior producer, Emily Malditerra is our associate producer. A theme, original composition, and mixing by Armin Bizarrean, it's actually in this week by Anika Robbins. Our production intern is Piper Duman. Our executive producer is Lee Ariz-Dennis, thank you to the rest of the team at Odyssey. Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Colin Gainer, Moore, Currin, Josephine Frances, Kurt Courtney, Vanessa Tenghadi, and Hillary Schuff. If you have a business, I'd like to advertise on a show. Please email us, [email protected], subject line advertising. You can also send us your questions there, if you have a question for the show. If you are a search engine listener, I would like to never, again, hear an ad. on our show. Then you can sign up for incognito mode. It's our paid feed. We also provide bonus episodes, just recorded one today. You can find incognito mode at searchengine.show. Your contributions there to our voluntary are also what help us keep our project running. We'd really appreciate our incognito mode listeners. We also appreciate all of our listeners. Thank you for listening to our show. I'll see you next week.