Why Owning a Climbing Gym Is Harder Than Ever

We're not in a high margin business. Like maybe 20, 30 years ago, you spend a couple hundred thousand dollars to build a gym. You get 500 members and it's like, I mean, I'm raking at, what are you doing once they come through the door? And like how many people are coming once and never coming back? Did a bunch of market research, which I don't think any climbing gyms typically do. And so that was like really, really valuable to just understand what was holding people back and what their reservations were. We're in a spot now as an organization where we need to like simplify or we need to grow. Welcome to the Climbing Gym Growth Podcast, where we share stories and strategies from climbing gym owners and operators to help you grow your community and business. I haven't recorded an episode in the past few months, but we're back and I'm excited to have Andrew Coffee from Hive Climbing back on the pod with me today. Welcome back, Andrew. Thanks Chris, great to be here. Thanks for doing this. Absolutely. Yeah, so last episode we spoke about your journey from one climbing gym to six gyms over the course of 14 years, is that correct? Yeah, we are on the brink of 15 coming around next year. The teenager. For real, yeah. We've taken age problems. Cool. So I want today, I want to talk, start by talking about where you are now. You're renovating your North Shore location in Vancouver, which I believe was your second location, is that correct? Yeah, it's 10 years old now. So, okay. Nice. What does the renovation look like? And why did you decide to do it now? Yeah, so the walls that we have at two of our locations are kind of those old concrete texture walls, El Dorado climbing walls at a Colorado, did those walls. And at the time, they were like one of the leading manufacturers, I think other than Waltovia was maybe the only ones doing the wooden panel, painted panels. And yeah, I was really impressed with their like design work and the quality of their support and service and the folks there. And so we had a really, really great experience with them at our first gym. But the concrete texture is usually applied by a local group. And the folks who they hired, like subcontractors, to put the concrete on at our North Shore gym, it's just, the other didn't do as, put as much time in or didn't do it as carefully, but the concrete texture is starting to delaminate from the wooden panels behind it. And everybody's moved to screw on's. And there's a lot more screws. You don't want holes to spin so you're screwing on every hold. And yeah, so over time, that texture has just been like starting to flake off. And we find ourselves patching and repairing and putting up volumes and sections where like patching doesn't seem to be, it's gonna be effective. And it's gotten to the point where we were like, the amount of work we're putting into this, the way that it's impacting setting. And like you don't really, like you just can't do what you want to do. And we've got a couple of other gyms now that have these nice, clean wooden paneled walls. And the maintenance side of it is maybe the biggest reason why we're doing it and why we're doing it now. But we're also moving away from, like when we built this gym, it was initially kind of intended as a place for a host, really big competitions. And so when you walk in, the walls are like all laid out in a line in front of you. And there's a couple of different corners. And those corners ended up being kind of concave features. And so one of these corners has this huge overhanging feature that's just like this massive like bulge. And the design is such that only one or two people can be on that section at a time. And yet it takes up a huge amount of space, a huge amount of mat space. And as the gym's gotten bigger, or like more of the community's gotten bigger there, it's been really hard to give enough space for all of the people who want to climb there. And so the maintenance side was the reason it was happening. But we took this opportunity to redesign the walls to give ourselves more linear feet, more areas for people to stand, easier to get on the wall. And that was like another problem was that getting on the wall was actually a little bit hard because the actual layout of the mats was such that you're sort of rubbing elbows with everybody to get on wall that wasn't as effective at getting everybody on the wall as we would have liked. So yeah, just like killing two birds with one stone here. - So are you adding more terrain, more features? Are you adding like additional standalone boulders? Like what does the renovation look like? - The process has been really, really interesting trying to navigate what is the best use of space here. And we've tried a bunch of different things. We looked at like a double decker, putting bouldering on top of bouldering. Originally I had looked at some different options for like a section of ropes, but at some point I was working on a sketchup file. And I was like, oh, we could put some ropes in here. This would be awesome. Then I realized my sketchup file had like seven extra feet of height in it than the building actually had. It's like, instead of being 30 feet, it's 22. Like all those are pretty short for ropes. - Yeah, yeah. - And like it's also not quite tall enough for two stacked layers on top of each other. And then we've got earthquake issues. So earthquake code with that would mean we have to dig a whole bunch of footings and those footings need to like impact with the walls. And then we're talking multiple million dollar renovation if we did something like that. So in the desire to increase the terrain, we considered a bunch of different options. What we've done, and I think we've done successfully is iterated over and over and over again to reduce some of the concave corners and make those corners a little softer so that they, so you can kind of climb in and around those corners rather than have a big steep section which just like blankets a huge surface area below it. And then we've created a little bit more of like zigzagging edge to the mats and edge to the walls so that it like wraps around and it comes out and then it wraps back in and it comes out again and it wraps back in. And then we're also covering over our garage door. So we're making, we're taking over like a space that used to be empty and filling that in. So I think all told we are, we're probably sitting around 15% more. Like linear feet wall space. It's actually about the same amount of square footage in terms of terrain because the original design we did, we were all gun hoe about having a big tall wall and the walls are actually like 18 feet and that's this little high for bowling. Yeah. I remember taking falls from the top like when we first opened just to feel and you got a moment where your arms are pinwheeling. I'm not there yet. I'm still falling. I have like a full on second to think about it. And yeah, and so I've had like pretty quickly we were like, yeah, these are two tall. So we were only setting to 15 or 16 feet off the mats. And so we've cut the height down to our 15 foot height, which means we've lost some like square feet but it's more usable terrain because the actual linear feet around the edge of the mats is significantly more. And the terrain is much more usable. You'll be able to get like probably, I want to say like at least a third or maybe two thirds more people kind of hanging around and able to like stand in preparation to get on the wall. We started off going to the opposite end of this factor of like raminin as much terrain as possible. And we had a huge peninsula which came out wrapped around a pillar and we were gonna like renovate the desk and get rid of you know, a bunch of unusable terrain that's kind of just was like open space, dead space at our front desk. And then we shared this design with our community. They provided some feedback saying that they were like really upset about losing the open feel of the space and more thinking it might be a little cramped. And we got that feedback from our community and from a couple of managers and we took a second look at it. And we're like, yeah, you know what? It probably will be too crowded. It like totally changed the way the space feels to come in and have to be like be funneled through some narrow passageways. And so we made a change with cut back that peninsula and now we've got what I think is like a perfect media. We're never gonna please everybody, right? It's always hard to get the right amount of steep terrain, the right amount of moderate terrain. And one thing I'm really excited about is we've got two slabs going in. And like we got a, we got one of our bigger, a couple of regions have some big slab sections but they only get set in like a zone. And then those problems are on the wall for until like you work but your way back around to that same place. So we've now got two separate sections for it. Which means like there'll be new slab problems kind of happening more often, which is great. - I'm getting the vibe that you are a slab climber. If you identify as a slab climber yourself. - You know, the Squamish has some good slab. It's got some really hard slab too. I'm a trad climber. So if you're on a slab, you're probably sport climbing most of the time, but I actually, I feel quite comfortable on slab. - Nice, cool. So are you doing all the pads too? - So you're doing everything? - Yeah, and we're gonna be using flash again for the pads. They've just like always been so good to us. And they have like a highest quality stuff. They're Canadian company too, which is really nice for us. And yeah, we've got a really great relationship with them. And Mark is always awesome at getting us design back. And yeah, so we'll be using flash for the pads and then really excited to be doing a new project with Dreamwall and Daniel Chancellor and Evo, very, very cool to see their first Canadian project. - Nice, yeah, I saw their workspace and it's incredible what they're working on. Dan is quite the artist. How has that experience been working with them? - Dan and Evo have both been fantastic. I can't say enough good things about the both of them. Evo has been super responsive with designs and iterations and very patient with us. I think we ended up on design number 18 after multiple, multiple rounds of initial thoughts. And yeah, so once we've kind of settled on where the walls were, we're kind of go and we did it like, probably 15 iterations. So, that's a process you always want to get right. And it always feels really hard, but they've been excellent, providing great feedback, doing what we asked and then we were like, oh, sorry, that's not exactly like, now that we see it, I don't know if that's a good idea. And they'll like dial it back. And so that's like on the Dreamwall side, Evo's just been excellent and always available to have meetings. I know he's got time difference, right? So from eating at noon and it's like 9 PM for him and he's super upbeat and cheerful and excited about it. So that's been really cool. And then Dan at Soyl has just been like an absolute pleasure to work with these such a nice guy. He's so full of like positive energy. Just stoked. I mean, Soyl kind of has this just like fun loving, creative juices flow and kind of vibe. And yeah, he's like, you must be instrumental in all of that because he told me get it when he talked to him. He's just psyched about everything. And he's like, I've seen the models. So he does all these 3D models of all the spaces that he's building out and they're beautiful. Yeah, it's incredible. He's a mad scientist over there. Yeah, so they sent us a model of a previous iteration. And yeah, you know, they do a great photo shoot and they put the model up against their, you know, the architectures and they get all these wicked shots. And so they've shared a bunch of that stuff with us. You know, I was just chatting with my marketing manager, Kate, and she just had a chat with Dan. And they're planning, you know, what is the launch look like? What's the social media post going to look like? Or they're going to send somebody up to do some photos and we're brainstorming ideas. And like from the photos you see the they post and like all of their media is top notch. So yeah, super unique, really, really creative. And it's like, when you see it, you know, it's so ill. Right. Yeah, exactly. Very distinctive. Yeah. So he's been great and like super, yeah, super helpful and ready to just be like, yeah, whatever you need. Let's do it. Nice. Um, I really like that you're involving the community in the process. That's cool that you're like, Hey, this is our first draft. What do you all think? Do you like it? Do you hate it? Um, and it probably takes a little bit some guts to do. I feel like you probably put a lot of time into the first kind of couple drafts. And then you really have to like listen to what the community's doing, uh, what they want and respond accordingly. How is that process? Yeah, it's interesting. You do put a lot of time into the design before you share it with somebody. Yeah. We have the same sort of questions and decisions around like we share with our staff and our staff community and share with the larger community. So we go through a process where we, you know, share with a handful of people and then share it with a larger group of people, share it with the setters, head setters. You know, I don't know if all of our just setters got to see it, but the head center of that gym and our setting manager got to see it and provide a bunch of feedback. And then once you get to a point where you're like, okay, I think I'm ready to share it with the wider audience. You sort of just have to put it out there and be open to whatever comes back. Yeah. We didn't do multiple rounds of sharing with our community, but we, you know, we shared what we could at the time. And we put up, uh, I guess like a link to a form where people could do a survey and share their feedback. And, um, there are a few other things involved in that. So part of it was the layout and like what they think about the layout. Another part of that is like, do you want us to remain open? Uh, while we're doing this renovation, because the plan is essentially to rip out the entire climbing wall. It's going to be a major dust fest. Yeah. It's going to be like absolutely filthy in there. And so we're going to have to hoard off the entire climbing space from the rest of the facility anyways. And we got a ton. We've got a couple of small spaces for training and for fitness. And is that worthwhile for people? And we want to know like, are you going to keep your membership? Um, our memberships are bouldering memberships anyways. I'll allow people to go to all the other gyms. So if people are keeping their memberships, they're able to access the other gyms. And we decided we would do a countdown membership. If you only climb at this one gym at the North Shore, we'll sell you like a pro rated membership based on how many days left before we close down for this. And so people are able to buy that now, I guess, who have been going on and we tried to get people a year's notice. So we're planning on shutting down in May next year. And we like made sure that our announcement was ready to go for May first. And yeah, people know because if you're buying an annual membership, we want you to know what's coming up with it. Holy yeah, that's great. I love that idea. Yeah. We got a ton of cool feedback from people like, oh, yeah, I'd love to see some ropes. I'm like, yeah, actually, I would, you know, I thought about that is too short. It actually looks taller than it is. And then there's people like, oh, I want to make sure you've got lots of Steve. I'm going to miss the cave section. Like, oh, we got a good cave. We got a really cool steep, steep area. And people like, oh, I want a better slab. And we're like, yeah, great. We can do that. Nice. There was like people who don't like the big open space because they feel like they're on show. Like the way that you would be on a competition, right? And that's what I'm for initially. What I mean, mine is that everybody's on show and people like, I feel really uncomfortable. So now we've created with this little S pattern or W pattern, little bit more zones. A few more little kind of areas where you're not on show for the entire space. So that's really cool. And then we've got all kinds of people asking for all sorts of other stuff, right? Are you going to redo this? Are you going to mix this up? What is, is there any room for filter board or tension board or system board and more fitness and yeah. Are you going to lump that in with this renovation? Or is that going to be something separate or? Yeah. So our plan is we right now we have a lounge upstairs that is amazing and a nice quiet space. But we find ourselves needing more fitness and training area. So our plan is before we close down, we are going to renovate that space into an area for fitness. We're exploring the possibility of a like attention to board to replace one of our existing system walls, which isn't currently being used. I think it's a moon board. Things are an adjustable moon board at the moment. And so we're looking at doing that. The problem is that our upstairs, because it's only 22 feet tall, our upstairs is really fairly short. And so it's never going to be able to go vertical or mostly vertical. It's going to still be steep, almost fixed at 45 basically. There's some limitations there. And then we want to make sure we've got enough terrain for youth programs and all of the courses and the stuff that we do that's related to that. So taking up space on the main floor for something like a kilter board felt or attention board felt really, they take up so much space if you don't have the space for it. And how big is this gym again? The total size is like 22,000 square feet. But there is like a giant beautiful yoga studio at one end and a bunch and then some change rooms, which kind of occupy a full, I think it's like five industrial units wide. And so like one unit on the top floor is a yoga studio. One unit is our two change rooms. Another unit is the lounge. Another unit is fitness. Another unit is like a training room. So we're making some other changes. We're going to move the lounge downstairs into the lobby, which will free up that space upstairs for more of the things we need. But we contemplated a whole bunch of other stuff too, like, oh, we should rip out the desk and do everything differently. And then you start factoring in, you're closed for four to six months. You are spending like more than half a million dollars to get a renovated climbing wall. It's just for like the wall and the floor and grade, or at least 600,000 at the end of the day. And that's not to mention the demo. It's going to take a month to demo this thing. It's going to have to hoard off the wall. This is approaching like a million dollar reno, right? And during that time, you're closed and you're not making any revenues. So I think we've figured out a way to remain open to allow people to use the upstairs and the fitness area, the tech area, and the yoga studio and some of the front lobby so that people can still use the space. Wow, that's such a hard decision to make too. Be like, hey, we're going to close this gym for half a year and do all this work. And it's, I feel like it's just such a hard thing to pull the trigger on. But Italy, and we've talked to a couple of other people who've done similar stuff. And one of the guys was doing like a reno piece by piece. And it was demolishing a little portion of it and then moving on or we looked at re just repaneling the wall, like just ripping the panels off and then putting up nice wooden panels. And you start thinking about, okay, see if you're ripping the concrete texture off. and the wood panels off. You can't recut things based on like models that were old from the old, you know, original design, the shapes and all the, you know, the various beveled edges and whatnot. You got to cut every panel on site. You got to measure every single triangle and cut it on site. And so now a project which, if everything's pre-made, can be shipped and like assembled like Lego, might take you like a month and a half. Now you're taking probably two months of like detailed measurements and this panel needs to be like that, then you put it up one piece at a time. I'd like right. And the layout isn't ideal for us. So we're like, okay, we just gotta, gotta, gotta do it. We can't keep it, keep ourselves open. Thankfully, we have other gyms that allow people to get and we're doing it over the summer. Summer EC is, you know, prime climbing time. So it does suck though, like all our youth programs, all our camps, all of that stuff, which is like really, really strong over there. It affects our, you know, spring programming for the kids. So, so they're gonna have to either go elsewhere. We've got an extra long term. Normally we end at March break, but we put an extra long term in to kind of give them another few weeks before we close. But yeah, and then stuff like what do you do with your staff if you're close for four to six months. So, you know, we've, we've offered essentially like, we're gonna try to find work at the other gyms if people are willing to travel. You know, if you want to be laid off, we'll lay off. We plan to rehire everybody when we reopen. So far, most people have been like, yeah, that's cool. We'll take the summer off and enjoy it. But yeah, you just, you feel bad for everybody, right? Like it. And we just hope that people are gonna be stoked when they get this new wall in the setting. You're gonna be better. And like centers aren't gonna be worried. I can't put that hold there or put that hold there. I need to put a volume up. We haven't decided exactly how we're gonna close it down. But I'm sure we'll do something fun. Big party, like a final sat, a little demo thing. Yeah, let the members take a sledgehammer to the wall to inaugurate the construction. Talk to my GC about that. Be like, oh, I don't know. I like that. Might have to be a special waiver for that situation. Exactly. Yeah. One of the biggest things you've learned over the past 14 years on designing a gym. Maybe just like, we've talked about some of it, but like give us maybe a couple, a couple of the biggest ones. Yeah. So, you know, I guess before I opened a gym, I was like playing around and sketch up, drawing random gyms. And, you know, pretty quickly, I realized like, this is like a useless exercise, because it has to be suited to building. Like, you got to start with the building that you have access. And so, something that people probably don't, if you haven't opened a gym, you probably don't know is like, you go to a building, you look at it, you find out what the rates are, whatever. You kind of try to run some numbers to see whether or not you might work. But you don't know that building's going to work until you've drawn out where the walls are going to go, where the mats are going to go, where the change rooms and the desk and what's in place already, where your columns, like what's the height in various places. And so, you've got to spend a bunch of time kind of mapping it out to see if it's even worth putting an offer on a building. And then if you don't get that building, you can't get to an offer or it doesn't work out, you've put a bunch of time and energy into it. But what I've found is, you know, having done this multiple, multiple times, like, and look at a drawing and look at a space and be like, okay, the most sensible place to put the walls is here. And I can get to that pretty quickly. But, you know, you start playing around with it and you, like, the more you do it, the more you realize, like, oh, I need way more empty space than I think I do need way more standing room than the climbing walls. And as an owner, you're always like, how do I get the most climbing walls in? Because I want the most terrain for people to climb on. That's not an ideal thing if they can't get on the wall or if they can't stand and can't, you know, put their water bottle down. So you've, you've got to walk that balance point. I find that fine line between enough terrain and enough empty room and community space. And you sort of have to ask yourself to, like, what are you trying to do? Is, is this a gym for a group of expert climbers and people who know what they're doing and really they're to train? Like, in that case, you can maybe put steeper angles in. If you really want to go into, like, new people and introduce people to climbing, all of those angles need to be dialed back and made more vertical. So we've always, you know, from the beginning, aimed at our design to have lots of vertical and not slightly off vertical terrain, you can make stuff steeper now with volumes and stacking volumes and create really cool kind of overhanging things, but you can never make your wall less steep. But then you also want the steep stuff because the Steve stuff is fun to climb on for people who, you know, know what they're doing and even for novices to monkey around and flail and learn how to like step through and counterbalance backflag and all of those things. So you sort of want to make sure that you've got the right amount of terrain for the people that you expect to go there and getting that balance is sometimes really, really hard. As I was saying before, concave features often feel best in corners because if you put a concave feature in the middle, it like kind of just like squeezes out everything on either side of it. But in a corner, if you don't put a concave feature, you end up with a permanent dihedral, like you can always stem that corner. And then setters are like, oh, I can't set a hard long view every time. Yeah, exactly. And then you can be opposite thing when you put it in a red. And an edge or an red is like too sharp. It's always grabable. You can always, you can always heal look at it. You can always tell them how to look at it. And so, you know, trying to balance these things, the linear feet, the square footage of terrain, the corners that you have with optimal setting conditions, like to be able to just be as creative as you possibly can in every area of the gym. You're going to find at some point you have to like sacrifice something. And it was funny with the norshores, like we went through all of these different iterations. And we sort of ended up almost the same as we have now, which is like indicating that like when we did it the first time, we sort of got the optimal layout, barring a few different, like we shouldn't have put this giant bulge feature in the corner. Like giant, like reverse wave, basically. And it just takes up too much square footage. So we cut that back. We added another little peninsula type piece and covered up the garage door. And now we feel we've got more terrain, more linear feet, and everything. And we've got enough steep terrain enough, like cool kind of proud features. And the corners are all softened. So you never have like a hard 90 degree angle. They're like a 90 degree angle is broken into three different softer angles. Are you doing any curved sections? Are they all angles? All flat. Yeah. And I spoken like a true road center. Yeah. You see the walls that are curved and they look cool, but you can't put a volume on them anymore or a big hold. And then you end up with a gap that someone can put their hand behind and then they cut their finger and you're like, I, this could have been avoided in the design process. Yeah. So you got to be really careful with those angles. Because you know, anything like 110 degrees is like almost still pretty grabable. So it sounds like it's fairly subtle. There's the balance that you're trying to strike, even though your your final mock up for the location is similar to the original, this subtle variations that you put in are making a pretty big difference. It sounds like. Yeah. And what we did is we, so like if I were to describe it, it sort of looks like an M like it on the left hand side that kind of runs north south and like curls around and then comes back down in the middle and then it loops back in and then it's like a I guess it's a triple M like two little spikes in the middle and in the middle of the M in between kind of two sections, which jut out is our big cave now. So we put a cave kind of like right in the middle and it sandwiched between two sort of one prow and one small peninsula. Nice. Okay. So there's going to be an area which is like very steep, very aggressive. And on either side of it is sort of softens out of it. And then the slabs are in opposite ends of the gym. So one of the last ones on the right. And yeah, it looks great. I'm stoked. I'm like really excited about it. I got to check it out sometime. I'm still haven't been up there. So someday. Yeah. Well, you know, uh, maybe you can come up for our closing down party. Okay. That's fun. Or then come back after it's because you'd ever know at that time of the year, it could be raining and crazy in swamish or it might be nice. So yeah, every time I've tried to go to swamish, I've been rained out. So I lived in Portland, Oregon for a little while. Okay. And I was like trying to do a couple like long weekend trips up there and multiple times forecast was just rain. Yeah. And tired. I was like, oh, this is never going to happen. So I never got a chance to go up. I'm very sad. But someday I'll make it out there. Yeah. It's beautiful. Yeah. It sounds amazing. Um, cool. So let's kind of change gears a little bit here. There are some things that we want to talk about last time that we didn't get to. One of my questions I had for you was, how has the competitive landscape changed in the climbing industry for you over the past 14 years? So obviously we talked about in the last interview that you were the first bouldering gym. I think the first bouldering gym in Canada, correct? - Yeah, I think we're technically the first bouldering only gym. Like I know there was one other gym. I didn't know about it at the time, but that they had mostly bouldering and a bunch of auto blaze. But like we just nixed anything to do with ropes and auto blaze. We were just like straight up bouldering. That's what we do is bouldering. - Yeah. - You can just show up. - So you changed the industry in that way. And so then over the past 14 years we've seen a bunch of other bouldering gyms opening up everywhere in the US and Canada all over the place. How has that changed sort of the competition landscape for you? - Yeah, you know, we were in a very lucky and privileged position in Vancouver in that we built this gym in the one spot that allowed us to do it. We put it in the one spot where up to street from another climbing gym. And that gym is there because it's the one industrial zone that allows for a fitness center. That conditionally allows. So we were blessed in the sense that like it was really hard for another gym to open nearby or anywhere in the city. And for the first, you know, for basically the first 13 years I was trying to find another location because we were so busy. And we opened the gyms in these other areas because we couldn't find another spot in Vancouver. - Gotcha. - So the competitive landscape, you know, across the country or within North America or wherever around the world hasn't really been a negative impact for us because we were still kind of the only gig in town. Recently another gym has opened up the street from us and they've taken a good chunk out of us. I mean, it won't be shy about saying like we lost a good chunk of business and we were busy and like crowded and we'd instituted members only hours before and then COVID happened and so we had bookings and then when COVID was done we were like, we gotta keep bookings 'cause that's the only way to manage capacity and ensure that people can actually get in when they think they wanna come climb rather than having a bouncer and like a wait list at the doors on counters and checkers and one person out, one in one out, right? - Right. - And like you feel bad if you have to do that for your members. So it hadn't affected us and it was great to see them popping up all over the place because I've always believed more climbers is better for the industry. Instead of trying to carve out a bigger slice you're trying to make the pie bigger. And then there's more for everybody. And so I think that's happened, right? There isn't a city, a major city in Canada that doesn't have a bouldering gym now. And some of them have multiple. Like if you look at Montreal it's got like, I don't even know how many. There's probably 13 or 14 gyms in Montreal. And Montreal is a big city, lots of traffic, sort of some bridges and it's hard to get around at times. So yeah, and some of those have been like, they've sort of carved out their own little niche. Like some of them are more about old school vibes. Some of them are more kind of compies. Some of them are all about developing climbers and cafe space or no cafe space. And yeah, so they've all sort of like found a thing that is them and that they're doing and doing well. But in a market like that, like I don't know how many more of gyms you can fit in. And this notion that there will always be more climbers as things grow, you that they can't actually be sustainable. Right. At some point you're making the pie bigger but like there's nobody to fill that space and just created. And right now our focus is to try to not necessarily win back people who've moved to another gym because they've moved for whatever reasons that we probably can't change their mind. But if we've got space and capacity, we need to get back to the things that we were doing that was growing, bouldering in our initial establishment. And there wasn't anybody to compete with. So we're like doubling down on our community events, trying to make like really banger things happening down the gym. We're trying to get some advertising out to grab the attention of people who like maybe haven't thought about climbing yet. And there's lots of people like that out there. So we found this in Winnipeg where we built a gym where there is another gym in town, but it's a little bit old, it's a little bit out of the same, like an area that's really not all that easy to get to, it could do with some updates. And we're like a brand new modern climbing gym. But the people that there aren't all climbers. Most people in Winnipeg is flat prairies. There's not a lot of climbing outside. A lot of people, it's not in their mindset. Part of their cultural awareness. So we've had to build a community from scratch in Winnipeg, apart from the really strong core of climbers who are there who've done a bunch of cool development and traveled to Northwestern Ontario. And Thunder Bay and Canora and there's some really cool climbing out there apparently. But yeah, so the competitive landscape I think in some places is probably making it really tough for Jens. And I definitely noticed at our facility, like it's been tough to lose a bunch of people and a good chunk of membership we've had to be really sharp and like sharpener pencils. Make sure that we're like not over staffing. Make sure that we are doing everything in the right size, right? Sizing our team. I keep talking to my like financial consultant advisor. And we're in a spot now as an organization where we need to like simplify and cut back on some things or we need to grow. And like there's this little sort of middle zone where you in order to make everything run, you need enough people in management and in structure. Like working on systems and structures and like everything needs like more support. But we're also like, we're not a giant corporation. And in order to like really level up, we would need to expand and take over, you know, adding new gyms to the mix somehow. And so yeah, we're sort of in this point where we're like, we're dialing everything back, trying to keep things simple. We're working on a couple of projects, you know, North Shore is a project that had to happen. So we're focused on doing that. That's probably going to take a chunk out of our revenue again, which you know, we're going to have to swallow that. The banks like, I don't know if there's an appetite for lending out there anymore because nobody's making as much money as they want. And we're certainly not able to spend the money that we want to spend because we've got to be really like financially savvy at this moment. - Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I've never thought about that way, but you are a teenager, right? And so you have to make a decision, are we going to go this direction or are we going to go this direction? And it sounds like a lot of gyms tend to go into the expansion route and try to just like build up their leadership team and try to go for more locations and expand quicker. But it's interesting to hear that you're kind of thinking about it from, let's make the things that we have as good as possible. Let's try to be efficient. Let's be more on that side of the thing. So it sounds like you're trying to create climbers in both markets at this point. Because like you're saying, there are a lot of climbers in Vancouver, but also you have a lot of gyms there and a lot of them are already at those gyms and Winnipeg, a lot of these people there are not climbers. So what other methods have you been trying to bring new people into the sport and convince them that they should be climbers? Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing that's worked in Winnipeg for us is we just ended up working with a marketing company. We like hired some folks, they're called Brandish. They're like super awesome. And we're working with them for a campaign in Vancouver. Presently we're just designing and working on it right now. But like what they help identify was like, who are the types of people who might be interested in what you do, but aren't doing it for whatever reason? And they did something that we'd never done before and they went out and talked to people on the street. They did like, "Well, streeter." And so they took a camera crew and they went walking around and they were like, "Hey, have you heard of the hive?" And they're like, "Oh, yeah, my friend goes there. I've never tried it." Like, "Well, why haven't you tried it?" And they're like, "Oh, I'm like, I don't like climbers for me or I'm scared of heights." So yeah, it's on my list, but I do this other thing on Wednesdays and my friend goes on Wednesdays. And so we were like, did a bunch of market research, which I don't think any climbing gyms typically do market research and it's so outside of our wheelhouse, it's not what we're experts in or we know. And so from that, they came back with like, some key target demographics like customer types. We said, "You wanna get people who are, you know, physically active?" Well, yeah, you know that. Where are those people hanging out? What are they doing? What are they looking at? What are they consuming in terms of media? How are we gonna get their attention? And so we created like a campaign that has three or four different flavors based on those three or four different customer types. And then they helped us get that out into the various methods and media, so they know, they're social media, but it's all tied together. So, you know, you might. see the same message on a billboard. We did billboards and went to pay for the first time. And they're digital billboards. And the thing of the funny thing about billboards is like people were coming in and be like, "Oh, I saw your billboard. That's so cool." And like, I don't know if they never thought about coming in before, but like even our members. I'm like, "Oh, that's a great image on the billboard." It's just going to fun to see that. But you've got to hit people in multiple prongs, like a five-pointed pitchfork or something. They got to see it on social media. If they see it on a billboard, that's like the second time. We did some door hangers. Door hangers have a promo on them. Handful of those come back. Are they effective? I don't know. But the people who have those may have seen our social media ad or targeted Facebook ad. And they saw the billboard. And they got the door hanger. And all of a sudden, this is like stacking. And then at one point they're like, "Oh, maybe I'm going to come in." And they bring my kids in. So trying to do multiple things at the same time that we're all coordinated under a campaign was something we had never done before. We put posters up. We like do posts on social media. But like giving it a whole tagline and a bunch of like copy that goes with that and like a kind of call to action that sends people to the website. And then we had just done a website overhaul which made things very much localized. So like Winnipeg had a very BC Vancouver feel. And so we want to just if you go to the Winnipeg page, it geolocates automatically. If you're in Winnipeg, you see the Winnipeg location. Like super simple. But like took a lot of time to rebuild the website. That's a massive project. So it sounds like with a campaign like that, you have so many things going on. How do you measure the return on investment? So because we worked with a consultant and a branding company, they have been the ones managing our ad spend. Like Google ads, Facebook, Meta ads. They're the ones kind of looking at what's going on, seeing click-throughs, checking the data that's coming in, how many people went to the website, and how many impressions, which of these two ads, which is essentially the same and has a different picture or a different person on it, which of these is performing better. And so every month, we would do they would do an analysis. And then we would use our data in Rockjam Pro around the new customers as our metric for like how successful this is. So we'd look at how many new visitors were we doing at this time last year versus this time this year with the new ad going out. And then correlating that, you know, we changed the ad. How many new visitors now? And it's not super easy to pull a direct number out of this. But we would look at, you know, how much do we spend on that ad, and then how many new visitors came in. And that would give us a return on ad spend. How's it looking? Pretty good. I mean, for Winnipeg, which is not a community that knew we were there, and a lot of this was just about awareness. We're sitting around like three and a half to four to one on return on ad spend. I think industry average is like two, right? Like if you get two times what you spent on these things coming in, there's no, I don't think there's a good way to track all the like spin off stuff. Right. I saw this thing and I waited like six months and then yeah, I decided to come in and my friend told me about it and then I came in and like you can we do like promo codes sometimes. So, you know, you do a special offer. It's tied to a certain ad. And then when someone sees that, you can then how many people bought that product, that promo product. And that's a kind of easy direct way to do things. So the campaign was a part of it. Another part of it was just like trying to make sure that when we do all of the fun stuff that we do, that the word gets out beyond our community. And so trying to really make sure that like what are the other communities we should try to get this information to and what are they looking at? And then how do we connect with those. So like running clubs, other fitness, like CrossFit type stuff, people who are getting active, getting down their bike. Yeah. But yeah, like trying to make sure you got something fun happening at the gym every month is a great way to do it. That's cool. What other things you do once new people come into the facility to try to encourage them to take up the sport? We, one of the things that the brand is identified was like, what are you doing once they come through the door? Right. So my business partner, Corey did some research into our data and basically found out some metrics around like, this is a number of people who didn't come back or the other people who've come twice. And like, so we started examining what our flow is and how do we reconnect with those people? And most CRMs allow you to send info to people who've clicked a box that says, yeah, you can send me info. And so we revamped a portion of our follow up to basically allow us to if you haven't been in a while, you get a message. And that message goes out and it's automated. And the message is, hey, here's a free thing. Come check it out or there's a new offer that you might like. And trying to do that in multiple layers across multiple different products and kind of the customer type can help if you get the, if you get their journey right, like someone who's been part of an intro class, what's their next step? Is there a second level course that they should take or should they be buying a pair of shoes? And if you can give them a deal on a pair of shoes, then you've got them hooked. And then they're, then they're coming back and using that or maybe the next thing is like to get a friend in. And so we, you know, we try to referral program. I don't know if that's worked quite as well as we would have hoped. Maybe we didn't put enough energy in or we didn't craft it right or didn't message it right. You know, you try stuff. You see what you can do to measure it. And then if it works, you do more of it. And if it didn't work, try someone else and you hold on your back pocket to think like, yeah, maybe we didn't do it right. I mean, I was, I was our fault that it didn't work because like the door hanger offer and maybe it's not something people actually want to redeem. But, you know, if you give away like free birthday parties all the time, you're probably going to get a bunch of people in. But like many of those people might not come back if they have to pay for it. And it's cost you a bunch of money. So you have to be very specific around how you do what you offer and you want to make sure that it's something that doesn't cost you a ton of money. We do donations all the time. Most people like call and ask, hey, I've got a fundraiser. I'd love to get some free passes where like, yes, here you go. You know, we're doing a school thing or we're trying to raise money for this. Yeah, you give them a bunch of, a bunch of stuff that's like easy to just allow to go under the wind and some of that stuff comes back. Most of it doesn't. So you don't really lose a ton by offering that stuff out. But, you know, you can't give away a month-long membership to somebody who's never climbed before. Like, they're never going to use that. So you've got to tailor it to what, right, likely to be redeemable and drive the behavior you want it to. I like the idea of sort of pinpointing the point of entries if they're taking a class specifically and then what is the best thing to follow up with? Yeah. As far as the industry goes, I feel like we haven't done a ton of that up to this point. And a lot of other industries already have these sort of systems in place for this person clicks this thing. This is the follow-up response to that. So I think it's cool that you're exploring those and testing different options. It's also interesting to like, if you're to think of like a retail store and you're going out shopping for like a t-shirt and you go to the mall, you're probably going to walk into five or six stores, you know, by one t-shirt of one of those stores. But the climbing gym, like if you've decided to walk into the climbing gym, you're probably climbing. Like, we don't need to convert you into a paying customer. So, but you might not have a great experience. It might not be for you. Right. Or you might do it once because you were invited as a friend to a birthday party or, you know, a steak party or something and you show up and it was great. And then you go back to your own life and go to your spin class and you never think about it again. And so trying to find ways to like re-engage with those people and making it so that it's automated. Right. And your CRM can really win or lose the game here. Like, you know, we're using a CRM that's a little outdated, it's hard to get some of that data. We're limited in our ability to kind of gather what we want when we want it and have it all at our fingertips. So I think a lot of other industries have like blown past. Right. And they're more advanced CRMs too. Yeah. Totally. So I don't think I asked this question last time. What is your biggest challenge as a company that you're currently facing? If you were to ask me this, like, I guess, what was it? Like six or eight months ago when I first went last talked back then, it probably would have been pretty much the same. But just financial stability right now. I think the global economy economic situation is a challenge for everybody in every market and in almost every industry except for maybe a few which are like you just sort of have to have or have to have to happen. But I've always thought that indoor recreation is usually for someone who cares about it. It's probably going to be the last thing they cut from their budget. You know, I'm like they'll cut out having their coffee or they'll cut out going for dinner as much. But they still want their gym membership because fitness and the social, but what they get out of being a part of a gym community and a climbing gym in particular is really important to who they are as an individual, how they see themselves. So you don't want to give that up. Right? You make other sacrifices. I get the feeling that a lot of people have made those sacrifices, and now it's a real pinch to hold on to this gym membership. And at the same time, the cost of doing business just continues to rise. Right? The cost of holds is skyrocketing. The cost of foam, which as a bouldering gym, you need to replace regularly. That's going through the roof because of oil, both of those things tied to oil prices. Shipping is going to go up if it hasn't already. And just the cost of gas is impacting everybody who drives anywhere and all this product. So, you know, there's this like squeeze happening in all sorts of areas. And at the same time, it's costing more to run the business with, you know, we got wages that go up, which is great, because they have to go up to match inflation or else people are getting less. But you can't always change your pricing. And we're now at a point where like, I don't feel like we can charge much more for our pricing because there's a threshold where like it's too expensive and people aren't going to come. And so we're now trying to figure out what are our more affordable options. And how do we how do we look at our pricing as we move into next year when we always do a price adjustment in January? What's going to go up? What's going to stay the same? Is anything coming down? And so the summer is now half price Fridays. And so folks can come in. It's fairly affordable. Not everyone can afford that, I know. But yeah, it's like a good day for people who are just looking to get in and see and can't commit to a membership. Want to want to be a part of it, want to try it. And it feels like a thing that we can do that isn't going to hurt us terribly financially. Like we may take a hit. So far, the data isn't fully in, but it feels like we're kind of getting enough people in to make it to kind of level out. But I think just the fact that everybody's blown through any savings they had from the pandemic, the cost of everything going up. And the more the more revenue you do, the more your insurance goes up. There's something that like as someone who's not an owner might not know. If you're doing really well, they're going to charge you an arm and a leg for your insurance because there's a huge risk there. Interesting. Those costs seem to always go up unless you have a drop in revenue. And nobody wants a drop in revenue because that means you got to do more with less. You're saying that the everything's inflating, right? Like gas prices, holds, you know, wages are going up. But it's hard for us to, you know, as operators to adjust the price of membership accordingly. And then either like have to be more efficient if the way you're spending money or you have to I guess get more customers, right? I think there's like only a couple of solutions. Getting more customers costs money too. I mean, we're paying for marketing company to help us with our marketing. And that's an investment that we assume and hope will pay off. It's paid off for us and win a big like I'm really excited about the work that they've done for our BC team. But we haven't seen how it works yet. And we don't know if it's going to be as successful. If it's half as successful, it's probably going to be successful. But yeah, you put up, you got to put a bunch of money into that. And when you're when you are operating at that, like break even point, anything that tips the balance one way needs to be offset. And there's only so much you can cut back. Yeah, so it's a tough situation definitely. What are your predictions for the next five years in the industry here? Evan chatting a little bit with some of my team about this. We think that like the industry, like most industries, probably cyclical. And it probably goes in waves where like there's a whole bunch of energy. A lot of people are excited about climbing might be tied around the Olympics and more greater awareness and resellown. Resole. Yeah. And his like super stunt on the tower. Yeah. Which I mean, I watched and I was like, I loved the the kid in the window with the signs. I said, this is V2 in my gym or something. I didn't see that. That's funny. Yeah, he's like climbing. He's like, God, how many feet like 500 feet up? And there's some kid in a window. He's got this big side plaster against the wall. Awesome. And it goes V2 in my gym and then Hottled has this like laugh, this chuckle about it. He's like, yeah, you're right. That's not that hard climbing. But it's an incredible feet, right? Yeah. And so like those types of things really do get people excited and thinking about this. If they've never done it before, maybe like experienced climbers kind of think it's a bit of a laugh and maybe only tune in out of like a morbid fascination or something. But like, yeah, like that stuff is great. To help the sport kind of get awareness. And I like what they've been doing in the Olympics. I'd never really understood speed climbing as a sport as like a track climber. Everything I want to go slow. I want to go methodical. I got to make sure my gear is good. Totally. Like so speed climbing is like antithetical to, but it's exciting to watch two people flying. And the what they're doing is incredible. A credible feat of skill and agility and perfection. And there's just the whole competitive nature of it that like it's fun to watch. And if people are seeing that and they're thinking about climbing, that's great. Like most climbing gyms don't have a speed wall. But if that gets them thinking about it and then they see one of our ads on like they're, you know, they're carousel or something. And then they're like thinking about what to do on a Friday night and it's raining. Maybe they'll think about us. And that would be awesome. And so we're trying to coordinate all these things to to drive traffic. So I think it will bounce back. But I don't think we are in a infinite growth potential kind of situation. Right. Like I don't think the boom of new gyms popping up everywhere is going to last. As probably already faded. Right. If people are opening up new gyms right now, I think I would suggest that it'd be very careful about where they go. Because at some point with just the cost of doing business going up and the competition for people's time and their attention. And there will be a point where it's not sustainable. And it sounds like there are gyms closing in the States. And that that was never the case before. He were always like there's going to be more climbers. And not everybody's heard about it. And we go into a community. If we build it the right size, people will show up. If we build it, they will come. And some of those places that have been operational for a long, long time, they're not able to make a go of it. And then you know, you'll look at rental and leases and all of a sudden get kicked out for condoms. And then you got to consider whether you rebuild somewhere else. And if you rebuild somewhere else, that's a whole new community. How many people are going to follow you there? A travel travel extra 40 minutes in their car to get there. Or it can be a good, good, good for transit. And then there's a boutique sort of stuff popping up with all training centers. And you know, is that is that a fat? Is it going to last? I don't know. Right? I love the kilter board. I love, you know, what what training systems boards do to give people an amazing experience, especially if you're experienced climber, you don't have to set. There's always going to be a new problem for you on the wall that will challenge you. And that's great. And you can kind of benchmark yourself compared to like everybody discussing grades. And that's a whole other job. But they have a really great purpose. But can a can a gym that's all train boards, which might be easier to operate and cheaper to run. And you might be able to get a smaller space for a less rent. And that model survived. I don't know. And then I think there's a gym in Dan was telling me about a gym in Seattle or somewhere that's like a group. Yeah. Rock. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's all based off. I think it's all kilter boards or something like that. An entire facility. Yeah. That's like cool. Like group fitness is a huge thing. That was kind of one of the things that like our marketing team identified was like, there's people who just want to do this. They're looking for a social loading. A lot of young people today are not hanging out at the bar. They're not drinking. They're living a healthy active lifestyle. They want something social that's fun and like easy to kind of get in. And you can just hang out with your friends. And we can be that for that. Right. So that's so that's an awesome positive direction for climbing gyms is yeah, get some board game nights going. You get to get a chess club or book club or something that like just brings people together for something completely unrelated to climbing and then let them do that in your space. We've done a couple of comedy nights in Winnipeg that have been super well attended. There's like super fun. And you know, I think we're in a downturn right now. But I do think it'll bounce back if there isn't just like another massive explosion that gyms pop it up everywhere because I think that would lead to most gyms where there's lots of direct competition really struggle to make a profit. And at the end of the day, as a business, you have to make a profit in order to like to keep the lights on. The profit is like non-negotiable. You've got to be making money because someone put money forward for it. They're going to want that money back or they're going to pull their money out at some point. And then, you know, for a business owner who's invested most of the money has been from the bank. You pay the bank back, that's great. And then if you've got your own money invested, I think most business like climbing gym owners are kind of like, "Oh, well, if I get my money back, it'll be. 20 years from now when I sell it to somebody." Right? Like that's maybe the exit strategy there. But to say you invest your money is something, don't get it back for 10, 15, 20 years. Like, that's a real challenge for most people of thinking about starting up a business. Sure. Yeah. And those profit margins shrink. You're going to need that profit to fix your floor. You're going to need that profit to redo your walls in 10 years. Like, I didn't want to have to redo my wall after I was thinking, "I get 20 years out of it." And so, you know, I'm glad that we saved some money when it was due and well. Like, when there wasn't all the things going on and before COVID, it was. Things were really, really good. And that's helped us. It helped us get through COVID, it's helping us now. And then if you want to expand or grow or buy new holds, like, that's where it comes from. It comes from profit. And so, as a business, you got to be profitable in order to give people wage increases to keep up with the rent. And yeah. And we don't. Like, maybe 20, 30 years ago, you spend a couple hundred thousand dollars to build a gym. And like, you get 500 members and it's like. I mean, I'm raking it. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And like, I don't need to get new people in. The 500-dehroid core climbers paying $400 for the year is like just enough. And that's all I need. And it's an adult warehouse in the back corners and industrial park. And yeah. Like, that was sustainable. And you could like make a living off it. But now, I think it's harder. And it's. I don't know if it's easier for a single operator than it is for multiple gyms. And we talked about this last time that like, as you gain complexity, as you grow, the layers of management and structure and all of that. That stuff just eats into profitability. So anybody who's got one gym and they're happy, like, I would. If it was me again, I would be like, I'd be happy. I'd try to just be happy with that rather than having multiple gyms. But. Sure. Okay. And so any last words of advice for any current owners out there that you haven't touched on yet, that you'd like to finish on? I said this last time, but you know, the thing that has helped us be successful is firing people who are doing things for the right reason and are passionate about the reason for being, like the vision, the values. And doing your absolute best to treat them in the best way possible. And nobody is going to join a climbing gym as a manager and make an absolute killing. Like, if you want to make money, you're probably in the wrong business. And you can't grow enough to scale enough to create those opportunities for people to work their way up a career ladder. It's just not possible. So you have to hire people who absolutely love what you're trying to do. Our fard workers and are dedicated to that and recognize that, you know, we're not in high finance. I, you know, I could work in a restaurant as a chef and maybe get paid a lot more, but my stress level is through the roof and the like the demands on me and my body are crazy high. And you just got to hire people who are better than you at the things that you need them to do. Like I'm not a great manager. I love leadership and vision and values and crafting and trying to get people pointed in the right direction. But I'm not a good, I'm not good at like managing a bunch of moving pieces. So I'm like a creative kind of person. I'm like building a gym. I like draw designing it. And that's what I think I'm good at. But yeah, I hire people who are awesome managers, right? And I'm so blessed to have a team of people who are just so like this bites us in the ass a little bit because, you know, I'm a bit of a dreamer, like a positive optimistic outlook. And like when I say, like I said to my team this year, like let's try to get like 25% more revenue this year. And I like, I know in my mind that this is like a crazy stretch school that there's no way we're going to get that kind of revenue. And that kind of increase might happen in the first two or three years, right? Or it might happen in like a small span when like awareness reaches a critical point, critical mass and then all of a sudden, you're spans, but it's going to slow down after that. And I like to think like if you aim for the moon and you miss you end up in the stars, right? So you set these like lofty goals, like maybe you'll find a way to do it. Because if you set a short goal or a small goal and you like, it seems achievable, like you're probably not going to come up with a creative way to blow away past it. Right. So I set that at the start of the year. And like, I've got a team of people who work at the hive are all just like, well, let's try to make it happen. Like, like, like, God, but that creates a lot of stress, a lot of anxiety. They're like, oh, I'm not doing it. I'm like, no, no, we don't we're not actually, you know, this is not what we have to do. This is, you know, is there something we're not doing that would help us get closer to that? And so, you know, there's like the, yeah, a lot of like really high achievers who want to do well and want the gender succeed because they want to support the staff, right? Everybody wants to get paid more and I want to pay everybody more. We all want to make a little bit more money. In order to do that, we need to like level up. We need to find efficiencies. We need to get more people in the door. We need to try initiatives and everybody just wants to, we've got all these great ideas. You've got so many great ideas and never enough time, energy, and money to do them. And so, you know, I need to get better at saying no, like, yeah, no, don't worry about that. We don't need to. Or like, yeah, let's focus our energy on this one thing. And that's, you know, that's the work we're going to be working into towards the end of the summer when I head out to BC is trying to focus in on like, what's the one thing the desk staff as a customer service rep? What can they be doing that will help drive this breakthrough result that we're trying to achieve? And like, what is one thing the root center can do on a shift daily day and a day out? They're going to put holes on the wall. They're going to put problems up. But what's one thing to be thinking about? And then I'm going to, we're going to try to get to a point where we're tracking that. So we're like, okay, was, you know, was this problem intentional? Okay, six out of six problems. We're intentional today. We had an intent for each of them. Maybe that's what is, I don't know. Or your desk staff is like, you know, I told every single person who came through the door about our membership loyalty program. And if I tell every single person, or if we hit 85% and then we actually actually track it and we start seeing membership going up, we can feel great about that. That would be like really cool. And so we're going to try to come up with a creative couple of ways that education staff, uh, setters and CSRs are going to do it. And then a way for our leadership team to help navigate this. Like, how are we having conversations about these things and helping identify what is that one thing that they could be doing? And then, um, yeah, so I'm excited about the future. I think there's a lot of good stuff coming down the pipeline. And that's great advice. And I'm glad to hear your teams. They sound like a bunch of rock stars. So they really are. Yeah. I like that's fantastic. Couldn't be doing it without them. I just, yeah, that I'm so grateful. So if you're listening to any of my high staff, thank you so much. You're doing a fantastic job. That's great. Well, I'm wishing you're you and your team all the best in 2026. And I hope the renovation goes well. And yeah, it's been awesome having you on a second time. Uh, I mean, you are just a wealth of knowledge. It's fantastic for you to share that with everyone. And I think that a lot of people can take a lot away from this. So thanks again for coming on. I really appreciate Andrew. Let's do it again after the bill. I'll tell you how I want to share some more stories. That sounds amazing. I would love to. Cool. All right. Later.