Why Nobody Wants to Build the Closed Loop - Kintsugi, Filed and Abacor

The every time prison comes off on back on camera, he's got a new piece of a tire ready to have a minute go, and then he's going to check it off. Welcome back everyone to a very special episode of the Zora Bruse. We are in the middle of summer right now. So it means conference season for tax professionals. And before we go off into the second half of corporate, the tax conferences, we would just wanted to do a very special episode with some of the leading industry, people who are building the tools for next generation of accountants. We have guests. We have the CEO of file, the CEO of Abakor and the CEO of Kinsungi. And then we are going to talk about their journeys. Why they took this step to buildings for the profession and to begin off there. Pujin will begin off with you. Thank you so much for being here. You started off with being in Georgia Tech and then transferring over to Stanford and then eventually you work at Metta and you finally decided like, Hey, I am fine. Not making money anymore and you decided to jump in and build is sales tax software. So what was that journey like? Why build in sales tags and you had a very interesting journey before you even built it. You worked at CPU firms as well. Yeah. So let me give you a little bit of a background about myself. So hey, everyone, thanks for joining and tuning in today. I'm the founder and CEO of Kinsungi and really like to understand my journey. You need to understand that sales tax compliance kind of runs in my family with my father and my grandfather worked in the space as CPAs and my father was actually one of the earliest employees of one of our biggest competitors, Avalara, who's the 800 pound gorilla in the space. And so growing up what it meant was I personally saw like really what worked and what did not work when it comes to the tools that were available for not only just direct businesses, but also auditors and experts who maintain the portfolio of companies and that in taxes, you know, you can't avoid them. When this whole South Dakota versus Bay Fair was happening in 2018, the thesis was that if South Dakota won, this problem would become everyone's problem. And what I came in with a different perspective that unlike a CPA firm or somebody who's an expert, I also had this data background and machine learning background and what I decided to build was, hey, instead of building another sales tax automation company with a with a layer of software, I wanted to build a data platform that connected all the systems of record for both the revenue and HR together and essentially tell you how much sales talk to you and where do you without a credit card on file. So when that happened, that's how we came up with the name Kinsugi because that means the broken, that means the art of bringing broken pieces together and making something stronger in the process. And we decided to build this entire company, which now is serving over 7,000 clients globally in 102 countries. The idea of what if we were to put and take away on sexy idea of sales tax that people have to deal with monthly and combine it with the fact of we will actually provide more value to the customers by having them just connect their data the system of records to us without charging them anything. And so that's how everything came together. Yeah. And then you also provide like a free Nexus like study for like your customer directly from like for a lifetime perspective, right? You don't need to sign up or pay for Kinsugi. What is the approach on that? And because most companies, most big force when I was there or most companies, they would charge like a hefty fee for like that Nexus study, that would be a big project. So then why jump in and provide that for free? And then you build the entire services on top. Don't you see like let's leaving revenue off the table? Don't these investors ask? I mean, I think one way to think about it is leaving revenue on the table, you know, versus for us, it was never about charging the end customer for providing them with information that would potentially like just put them in a state of like unease that hey, you're not compliant. So the way we approach the market was like look, we have two types of customers direct businesses who need to get compliant and experts who need to make their portfolio compliant. But by providing this information, this ever updating Nexus study that gets updated every 10 minutes for free, what we created was the biggest net. So anyone under the sun, whether they were pre revenue company or whether they were doing $200 million in VMV or if there was software company that was doing a billion dollars in revenue, could connect their touchby, stride, net suite, SAP and really quickly you see, okay, how much sales tax do I owe and where do I owe it? And that had like actually a second order effect that a lot of experts who have a portfolio of hundreds of companies started using our tool to actually see whether the entire portfolio was compliant or not. Because now they didn't have to go in front of their clients and convince them they do an Nexus study for $5,000. The story changed and said, hey, we did the study for you. By the way, we found out that you have exposure and need to pay sales tax after getting registered in 19 more states. As your CPA, I can take care of it. And by the way, I can just roll this up in my billable hours. So we decided and this was a conscious decision that by giving this information for free, you were able to like cost the biggest net and get a lot of people to connect their data and then by providing this information for free, you were able to get both customers who may be using our competitors as well. But because Kinsugi's free, they all had also now installed Kinsugi and as well as like cash firms and CPA firms to basically say, hey, now it truly costs you nothing. And by the way, for the auditors and the experts, that gives you another reason to pick up the phone and get in front of your client on a quarterly basis. Because now you're not talking in theoretical terms, hey, you should think about sales tax compliance. You're talking with their data, hey, company XYZ, your beloved client, by the way, while you're growing so quickly, compliance is going to catch up. So that was the ethos got you make sense. No, perfect. And I've seen like you guys have that partnership new with vertex two. You guys are growing really fast, really well in the space as well on the D2C brand. So like congratulations on that. I want to like now switch to like, we are from filed. Lira, you built one of the founding members of Juni, which was at that time before level. The fastest growing startup ever in Europe, and then over there, you also had that epiphany that you wanted to start. You started working with like US tax people for your own personal taxes and you saw this opportunity that led you to go to Heatherbot, directly, learn from there and start the link file. So what has that journey been like? What have you guys learned and like, what is the future for I look like and especially in tax prep? Yeah, and then thanks for the introduction and thanks for listening. Yeah, it's been a journey as a Brit entering a new and with all due respect to a complicated tax system trying to, you know, play my own learning curve here whilst also kind of the analogy of flying the plane whilst building the plane, I think is ever so real here in startups, but never more real in the world of tax. You know, things are always changing. More importantly, we have a very fast and accelerating tax ecosystem, accounting ecosystems, so many providers, so much information and so much momentum. And it's incredible. It's really something I've never seen before. I would say what I've loved about this journey in a very short amount of time, which has now been just coming up on two years is the reception that also accounting firms who we work with are more ready to never. I think with all due respect, I can't speak to everyone here, but I can say in our own terms, if maybe we were doing this two years or three years earlier, maybe the accounting profession wouldn't have been quite ready neither. I think the rate of adoption has really kind of come to fruition because people have had a chance to, you could say, ease themselves in to the kind of AI curve they've had a chance to use chat Bbt and some firms are even using Claude and some firms are accelerating to using MCP within Claude and it's great. Like the world is, it's, it's like a joyful time to be a technologist, you know, to be in this space, but it is also a case that we are trying to meet change management within firms with an ever changing landscape and ensure that firms make one choice. Well, let me rephrase that point. Firms want to make a choice. That is the right choice. And they're almost, you could say it sometimes paralyzed by any amount of information out there. So that's something that I think is really exciting as well to also kind of help some of freedom transformation help some of freedom change management help a firm really unleash their expertise and at far that's what we do. We focus on building not only data entry, I think that's been a problem that's been solved for many of years by many incumbent solutions, but rather building skills and memory. Hello, there's a count screen here. Yeah. Building for memory around the data entry. So when corrections are made, the tedium that we want to remove is when the systems that people work with, let that data go into an abyss where corrections are made in tax offers, but a tedium of correcting returns gets lost. And every year the same work has a being redone and redone and redone. I think that's the biggest waste of human capital. For us, we can remove that tedium. We can build memory, can institutionalize that knowledge. Make sure that the firm can use that to grow. You can find a way that firms cannot only gain leverage with AI. They can differentiate their business by competing where a team of 10 can feel like a team of 100. So there's a new world coming and I'm super excited about what that looks like for the accounting profession here in the US. So you guys are not just like building out people can go and file and just fill out the tax return for the first time. It will learn and then if you roll it over, it will remember what are those. context happening. This context is like the majority of the model in X in this profession. Absolutely. Absolutely. So think of it this way firms will use incumbent solutions today. Sometimes using incumbent solutions and still continue to use them. And that's also fine, but Fild is the verification review layer in that case, where the incumbent does the data entry. The tax preparer or the tax professional will make the adjustments. Fild becomes a layer that collects that, remembers that, and self-corrects in the future. Not only for the coming tax seasons, but for the coming tax payers. If there is a common theme between the corrections made before the corrections make later. Of course, Fild does the data entry. We do it really, really well, but again, nothing is perfect. And we never try to pretend to be perfect. We focus on trying to get to what we say as the firm's level of accuracy. But that only happens over time. So Fild isn't, yeah, you could say built for everyone. Some people want a turnkey, you know, out-of-box perfect system tomorrow for us. That's not how AI works. I think everyone in this room knows how much time it takes to get things to be at the firms or the user's preferences. And that's also kind of the learning curve. But again, back to my statement earlier on, I don't think that accounting profession was ready for that a few years ago. But I believe that they are. And we're getting into that really, really beautiful bowel curve, or just at the beginning, where you see this early adopter, you see this kind of like now point of fruition coming in. And then it's a really beautiful time to be in this space. So it's a long way to continue. Yeah. And so you guys are like, so then you basically onboard each client individually, you have to set time for them and like make sure all their systems are done. Yeah. For certain clients, we run a slightly more cohort-driven approach with our partners, some of our partners being in this call here, a recent partnership between Apple Corp, and Valve, where we run partnerships, we run cohorts of onboarding to clever, some of those being our practice management system partners. That's more of a cohort-led onboarding. But where it's a, what we call an enterprise firm, one of the big fours that we've onboarded recently that actually means that we're going on premise, you know, to an office, clearly next week. So in time, it is recording actually. We'll be there with what we call our tax engineers. That he won third of this business of former CPAs and the EA's themselves, who have sat in chairs, similar to the people that we sell to, similar to the people who are going through change management. And they will be ones who run the deployments on premise, building all of the rules, all of the skills. And yeah, we're super excited about that being kind of one of the levers that we pull and these larger discussions. Okay, perfect. And then I could love to you all like having taken your team over there. I know you guys are doing a great job. Everybody loves also your stories and presence. So I think it would be great for the big four over there. And then now moving on, talking about like your partnership with Apple Corp, I want to make switch over to David. David, you spent your time as a practitioner in the profession, and then you worked in gusto. And then you left everything to start like basically a new category in the accounting space where you set a specific, yeah, meeting note taker that you start off with to get the context in and getting all that established. What led you to that journey to start building in from there? And then where you guys have seen since launching last year to now on like how it's evolved and like where do you think the entire category is going to go? Yeah, thanks Adam. Congratulations on the podcast. I feel like you're shipping daily podcasts at the moment. I love love the velocity and leave it. That's a cool family. We're the tax engineers. We'll call them. Yeah, no, it's it's a great technology, I think. Very cool. Yeah, Adam. Yeah, it's been an amazing journey. So we started maybe a bit of background before jumping and we started in 2024. But where we are now wasn't where we started. Where we where we started was actually, no, day one thesis was like, what if you were building a new general ledger accounting software in 2025? What would that look like? And why we started there was when I started my career like in accounting ten years ago, I was part of that desktop accounting to cloud accounting inflection point. So I still remember installing the CD to you know, install the accounting software, waiting for the activation code to come to you know two weeks down the line to use the software. So naturally, I was very obsessed with like, what is that version in the AI, you know, AI native world? However, as we, you know, four or five months in, as we went down the rabbit hole, we just weren't. There was a far bigger problem and maybe a smarter wedge into this space than building a whole year of here accounting software with a small startup team. And you know, we, we naturally just heard from accountants like David using, you know, a meeting assistant has been game changing for the firm. It saved me a lot of time. It's, you know, allowed me to focus on my clients. And at that time, there was no real like accounting specific tool, you know, there was a lot of horrors on tools that accounts were testing out. And on boardings, there was a latest tool in their, their tech stack. And that was like one of the light bulb moments, whereas when we sat down on the top 50 firm, who basically said that they were paying about $20,000, $30,000 for a contract engineer to basically pipe their notes from a meeting assistant directly to the practice management solution. And that was one of our light bulb moments of like, Hey, we could do that. It's, you know, we can do the integration. It's a, you know, a meeting assistant eventually becomes like someone's most used tool. So it's like high frequency, high opportunity to delight the customer and user. And you just become very, very sticky as well. So, you know, that's how we landed in this spot. And really, you know, when you think about it, when I think about as well, the client meeting is such a monumental moment in any service, like any service lines within an accounting firm. And there's just so much you do before a meeting during meeting and post meeting. Like on average, there's probably like really up to an hour of admin time, like preparing for a client meeting, manually taking notes and then send drafting a recap email afterwards. So really automating time saving, cost savings, being present in meetings. And then everything and afterwards, like to your point, the why is the why in doing this as well is just, there's just so much rich information we can capture in meetings and actually at the time of this, this call will be launching emails as well. So capturing like email context as well. And then with that, we can like automate everything downstream as well, which is super exciting, relating to accounting and time. Then I feel like that's almost more important to let some of like when we're at conferences, and I've been like playing around with like trying to actually get a device because I'm having so much conversations in real person and real life too. And I know you guys are working on the app to like coming out and launch it in person. But I feel like that's also where most of like the meetings are going to be taking place. And there's a lot of context over there that doesn't get recorded. So that having that and then pushing it into a system like file, but for now, it will have all your memory and context plugging in will be like really important. I do love. Yes. At this point, then I have a question for you guys is like you guys are going the path of being the partnership side and integrating into the other applications into yours rather than some applications. If you see some of the tech tools that we already have are a close loop system where they try to build everything over there. What was the reasoning behind both of your companies to try to go the partnership route rather than the close loop route and try to build as much as possible say we're going to work with the widest variety of people. Freedies simply, you're stronger together than you are divided. And that sounds a little bit philosophical. Yeah. I might write it down in my memoirs. Candidly, we're all trying to provide value to some extraordinary folks who are at the cutting edge of being the Vanguard to lead forward and taking what is a early bet on us, candidly. We're up against worlds of people who are used to systems that have looked and felt and are the same or yes. Nothing is met without scrutiny. The profession is taught to be the most well you could say skeptical in some cases. The AICP themselves became the governors of SOC2. It's the forefront of my policies on SOC2, just SOC in general and the kind of like authorization around that, the ISO accreditation, etc. So what I really believe here is important is that we recognize that how can we believe that we can provide the most amount of value in a close loop ecosystem where firms want connections, they want the best of breed, they want the best of everything together. Has software companies before us have kind of gone down the path of bundling and in unbundling and in bundling and unbundling, it happens. There's this cyclical nature of seven, six, five years, this kind of like incumbent comes and takes everything together and it takes it apart. Those incumbents, that can't be named here, those are the ones that go around sort of buying or the early incredible technologies and you know they kind of slow down kind of don't develop and well we're not part of that you know we're building great systems and candidly we're all trying to also be the best in what we do and we are the best in what we do. That's what makes it so special. We get to make work with incredible people like Applecore, we get to sit in incredible rooms with Kansuke and it's just so harmonious when things do talk to one another that do connect because what we want to do is present ecosystem that firms shouldn't have to decide they should just be able to know confidently that they're going to be in a world where the data can talk to one another they're not going to be imprisoned in this world where things are closed and that's been our philosophy for the very beginning. We're very happy to sit in the position now that we have over 15 different partners in a very short space of time, more to come and more to announce but we only partner with those who are in their own right leaders in their own category. We say we want to partner with people who are an inch wide but a mild deep not you know a jack of old trades which is a - Yeah, I'll say that, yeah, I mean, echoing what Leroy just said as well, and plus one to all that. And I think it's simply just one word like choices. I think giving accounting firms accounting choices in, you know, their tech stack and what they use is very important and not being pigeonholed in, you know, using one tool for everything. I truly do believe in not adopting like the best in class tools and product depth is always better than product breadth. So yeah, two Leroy's analogy, like I think that's very spot on. And you also want to be best in class in like one or two things, they've been very focused as a company, right? Like you don't want it, you can't, I mean, I'm not going to be solving sales, tags, income tags, like, you know, tax research, I'll leave it for you guys to solve those problems. So yeah, I'm really, you know, for us is really focused on this layer here as a starting point. So I think like, and we hear that, we hear that like with our customers and with accountants, we speak to, you know, a lot of accountants are disliking a lot of like the one stop shop tools and, you know, they don't want to be in this closed ecosystem anymore. They want to, you know, work within Claude, they want to work within chatroom PT, they want to use the best in class tools. So I think that's the direction where accounting firms are moving towards. Yeah. And I just add to this. I also want to just say also best in class tools, like Bizarre, when it comes to all things research, just to make sure that I didn't skip that. But I also want to just put the question back to you, Adam, you know, I think one of our very first conversations I remember, I don't know, maybe, how may I put about a year ago, was like, Hey, you know, what's Bizarre? Tell me all about it. And I think you were like, Hey, we have this API with, that was like the first thing I remember is like, this guy has an API. I love it. Like, that's great. Like, he's out there just making, he's like an agent of change. He's he's going API first. But Adam, why did you go API first? Why was that your whole thesis? I know you've got the MCP stuff happening now. So it's exciting time. But as you're a Mr. Connector, you're connecting it altogether. Yeah. So I think it was like a fire. I couldn't sleep one night. And I was just like, what's up? And I'm like, I could see this future where I'm like, people will be tired. And then something will come around. And this was I think before the launch of MCK's became this popular as it is. And I was just up. And I'm like, maybe we can connect it. I was honestly trying to figure out how to get the best distribution possible in early Bizarre stages without having to spend any marketing budget. And I'm like, this is maybe the way. So I had to convince my CTO to prioritize launching my APIs. And then as soon as it launched, we had the MCP connection. And Claude just took off over there as this year early we saw Claude on the enterprise side happen. And the CPA firms have been talking to almost all of them who are tied forward are going to switch to Claude eventually. We just our KPMG launch it for almost 150,000 of their employees. So eventually there will be a ecosystem. That's my thesis where we will all work in an MCP first in these super apps. And all work will be get done in there. And then who has the most robust applications in there to make an account and slice easier that knows how personalized to each specific accountant, those incumbents will win. And that means like we can't charge our SaaS pricing anymore, which where we can't charge seed based pricing, it would be like going to token and usage and basically an output based. And based on that, we've also like started doubling down on that where launching Bizarre Advisory Services that will be launched like in the next coming weeks where we actually go ahead and tell you we're taking a position if you take a position from Bizarre. Let me sign off on it for like an engagement fee. So having that's over there. But like I want to tell you guys about this, like having over there, like if you are, let's go in, let's say you go to a top 200 firm and they're trying to implement all of these strategies and as strategies, like how if you're talking to their CTO, CIO, or like their tax folks or accounting folks, how do you tell them like how to evaluate the tools? How do you tell them how do you build that trust factor and then how do you tell them like what to do and implement? And is there a lot of still a lot of learning curves? Or are you seeing the people are learning on their own and it has been growing pretty fast on that. Yeah, I think that's it at first. I think yes, definitely being interesting, like top 300 firms, like we're doing our pilot with a top 100 firm right now in the US and we probably serve like nearly 10% of the top 100 firms in Australia as well now, which is super exciting. And I actually say like a notaker is like the starter kit. It's almost the starter kit of AI. It's almost like the entry point of like adopting AI. And maybe like we saw a lot of firms like the first AI tools that they adopted was maybe Microsoft co-pilot, you know, two years ago, particularly these larger firms and then, and then, you know, then many practitioners were using maybe a horizontal notaker, not specifically put in the street like those almost like the starter kit. And that's why we started there as well. Like, you know, that told us there's a willingness to pay, there's a willingness to solve this. Like it was more that painful that they were willing to adopt a tool. And also sometimes tools not built for this profession as well, built for like other other verticals and other issues. So yeah, I think going into going to this conversation, it's really like informing and telling teams like, you know, you know, it's the AI adoption journey, you know, you can a lot of firms like I write their very beginning, like, you know, the early meetings right now. Like just just last week, we had one of our customers. It was crazy. It's a crazy story, but there was an AI CPA webinar with like 5,000 practitioners. And one of our two of our customers were on the panel. And you know, they mentioned how how game-changing Albuquer has been in their firm. We probably like 40 leads in five minutes. Come from this webinar, from like 5,000 people that was listening. And then I actually went to my team and like, what's happening? Are we getting scams right now? Like, you know, we got all these leads. I mean, like, I think like 20 in a minute. And I was like, I think it's really like, we got all these demos signed up. It was like mind blowing. And then, yeah, so they turned out to be real. I thought it was some bot or like browser agent. I was just like signing up for demos. But turned out to be real. And we've gone through all these, well, most of the 40 calls. And what's crazy is like, we're still hearing firms, you know, David, we don't actually use any AI tools. We haven't touched any AI tools. We've never used a no take care. We're still taking notes by hand. And it really validates to me. There's just the ton of opportunity. And like, firms are like in, you know, maybe a lot of the firms we speak to and we know like, they're really the, like, just 1% of the global accounting firm market that have like, I don't know, vibrating their own CRMRI or practice management. Whereas like, everyone else is like still, you know, adopting and I think that's totally fine. Like everyone's, you know, in their own AI journey. And I think it's all about starting small, seeing this value, you know, time saving, cost savings, you know, helping make more money, helping create a more delightful client experience. I think like focusing on those type of value is how you should like adopt a tool. But yeah, hopefully that's helpful. I would say similar to David is a word of mouth as a great starting place, we've been very fortunate to find ourselves in a position now that we have the kind of like referral system that we need. It's not without having blood, sweat and tears to get there. But what that means for us is now we can just say to a, you know, a multinational, sorry, multi office national firm, for instance, like, hey, here is another use case like you, his paramount tax, they, you know, have 80 offices, you have 50, but talk to them. Here is top 150 firm and go talk to them, you know, we can now pull upon these levers and start just saying, well, you want social proof, here's the proof. And I think that's something that we've been very fortunate with. And I know a lot of us have that leverage now, but as we all get there, it's not easy. It's the early people who really trusted us. Top of that as well, it is the kind of more independent and you could say voices up to space, you know, especially the kind of consultancies, you know, big shout out to everyone who is, you know, out there recommending technology to these firms. You know, he'd sit on the precipice of being the listened gurus in the space. I'll enjoy a wooded goomer, you know, these folks are out here recommending. As Adam was mentioning, just recommending prior to this, that the most recent podcast that you did on the, my apologies to you, the webinar that you did, you know, you're recommending people listen and just even two weeks ago talking about kind of funny stories, similarly, Jason Stats releases his recommendation list. And I see, you know, if you're new names there and it's an incredible time to be, you know, recommended in these lists, you know, huge influx of people. And it's just like, okay, that's great. Now we need to show up or prove, but it does really, really help. So that is a kind of like roundabout way to answer your questions, like how I help firms to start. I say, go talk to somebody else. And then let's talk and then, you know, let's definitely get into a pilot. Father's a little bit different. We don't run trials. Unfortunately, we don't have an open gate system, which we can just let people in. It would be beautiful if we could. But candidly, we have to manage the expectations. Father and all AI systems are not at 100% accuracy. So we want to create a story on the side of the firm is at the right place. If they're ready to go for the training, because it's not this, here is a problem. And here is a solution. It is a problem. Here is the opportunity ahead of us. Here is the hard path and the hard truth that we have to put time in. It's an investment. You have to trust us. You have to work with us. It's going to take a few weeks. We're going to get there. We're going to deploy. We're going to train. We're going to take the feedback. We're going to rebuild. And all of that hard stuff that we have to really, really tell them on. Yeah. So then talk about the solution. So it's this kind of like, often, we have to make sure that the firm is ready for that. So that's why we have this kind of pilot program, which is obviously proving huge success. But the firms that get it, get it, the firms that don't, they will get it soon. with your with your amazing tech engineers. And with the tax engineers who bring the whole story together, again, one further the company. So I know you recently launched this course where you can get a certification from like you can become a tax engineer. That's literally the whole premise of it. It's a great case to recruit people from David. Thanks for the tip. Yeah. So how did that idea come about? And what does the course intel? I want to say it's a huge shout out to Rachel who leads the tax engineering team. Here it was all her kind of idea. I can't take any glory for it. But Rachel is a force. She I think we filmed this in in in in Bangalore to Bangalore, work with the team who who film it. And yeah, huge shout out to Mars Masterclass, who are the ones behind it all, but the idea behind this is that, you know, we want to attach CPE to training. We want to make sure people understand and evaluate independently. As with all CPE, it needs to be neutral. It's not about filed. It's not a course on filed. It's a course in just how to dip your toe into AI, where to start, where to find the resources that you need to gain trust, and where you need to be in the coming years. So it's nothing to do with filed is completely independent. We just wanted to spend time in kind of coming the some literature out there into the world, which we felt was lacking. And a CPE eligible to get through it. CPE eligible. Wow, to working with NASCAR, must have been fun. There we go. And we also have some fun stuff happening with CPE here at our file, which is kind of continuous within our product as well, which will become more used soon. But yeah, until we get that whole open, I'll share that into you across maybe the next spot. Nice. I would want to talk about like one final question with you guys is, we see in like the legal tech space. There's like basically two companies going ahead to head right now, which is your Harvey and you look for us. Okay, I didn't go over there. Look for us in Stockholm. So you're right over there. But in the accounting space, there's not clear winner yet. Is it do you think, and I was talking to this about with other professionals, and they said that the accounting market is too fragmented for like being one specific director that can have winner take all kind of system. Where do you guys see what's your opinion on those and where how do you guys see like being that's why is that one of the reasons we all are pushing for these integrations and we think like we should be best at what we're doing. And then we go farther as a whole team than like doing it individually. Yeah, I mean, first of all, it's amazing to see all the amazing companies coming out of Sweden. Yeah. It's I don't know what what are you drinking over there Lee Roy. It must be like amazing. The top four is really good. I can tell you that much. I've got the money that they save by not having to buy bottle of water. That's what's happening. There's just an integrated fund right there over the wall. Yeah, it's crazy. We actually had like a few of our you know, Gusto colleagues and leaders that I previously worked with like moving to leadership roles are loveable and like you know, they've moved and packed up to Sweden as well from like San Francisco. It's just amazing to just see the the talent you're attracting over Sweden as well. Yeah, Carlos to Sweden. But yeah, I think I think Adam Lee is definitely very interesting. It's something I think deeply about I think we all do like all areas of professional service like legal wealth management and financial rises and for us like the countenance and I do think like what you said there's a big part to it. I think like within a like definitely like larger you know top 500 accounting firms there's almost at least like five service lines within an accounting firm right there's like the order tax has advisory and I mean some even some larger ones have like a whole legal practice within within the firm as well. So there there is like yet a fragmentation of work and and then you can go very deep just on like one service line. I think we've seen like just like AI for order we've seen AI for you know for cars and so forth in AI for tux and so I think there's an element of that where it's it's different to the legal industry and then I think also I think why why legal has really pruned maybe or adopted like AI a little bit faster is I mean just just language and text is just such a natural fit to to the legal industry I think the ROI is like you know very very clear there and then I think like just when when AI and Alan Limbs launched right there was a lot of like chatter around like how it wasn't great with numbers you know it hallucinated quite a bit so you know we've had to like really overcome that early friction and like you know with large language models but I think we're getting there I think like like you know I think like accounting is probably just like a year or two behind like legal adoption but I think the next phase is going to be really fascinating and you know I'm very excited for for where industry is going sorry I had myself on you there I could completely I would say there's a very interesting shift in that legal world that has happened and has been brought around by pressures put on legal professionals and legal firms by the availability and and actual impact that AI is making on the consumer or the customer level so you know I'll give our example around our legal counsel phenomenal I love them but I would never go to them with just a raw expectation of can you create me an MSA for this humongous partnership I will draft the MSA with Claude and then say can you read like here's can you read line this and sign off with it I've done 80% of the work because it would be arduous and erinous of me to go and delay my sales motion on a big partnership by saying any 10 days to get something drafted because my legal counsel have tons of stuff on their plate and the same pressures are being now kind of like seen in the accounting world I think as an interesting time coming where us as tax payers will now start going to Claude and asking for advice and so bizarre mtp but you can download it there I'm from somewhere but but let me just explain this because I really think that this is what changes the professionals candidly this pressure bottom up is actually what's changing things not just necessarily this kind of like competitive leverage that you need to gain like we need to do the process for hiring the best staff yet that's obviously the case as well you know you need to put more technology in higher the better people but it does come from your customers if your customers demand change you're going to change I even see it on the business level I see it on like K1s I'm seeing it on firms that we work with us saying yeah we want to foster K1 processing because you know we're kind of getting this case that we're producing the K1 and we're doing re-engesting it and the customer's kind of questioning like why are we paying for all of this like isn't AI able to like make that better like we're paying on the bill of lour for K1s that you create and you're re-engesting them you can probably guess these kind of slightly larger firms who are responsible for that but it's like that is a very real problem and what are you going to do about it I don't know you will know but that means that they're going to have such changing how they use AI and how they most importantly they're still AI amongst their firms they're going to we're going to see a massive headwind now in the counting world where I believe there will be winners and I anticipate a buoyant ecosystem and lots of winners but I do believe there'll be a strong strong a headwind coming up sorry tailwind my brother too so I said headwind there'll be a very strong tailwind coming up and what we've seen illegal is just what we're going to see in accounting they're just about free is ahead of us but now it's coming for us so exciting times sales by 2028 I guess or even sooner with how things yeah I mean it's it's it's it's now you know it's now it's is today so yeah I'm just so excited and I think just one laughing hit to say here on this illegal space you know it's great to be compared to adjacent industries are that very close but also with all due respects it's a whole different goal game as well and that's to prove any focus away from how important the legal news and how citations and how having the right research and having you know the right case law is of course you know principle of everything but in the accounting world I really think a commenter on place really makes a greater difference than a commenter on place on the on a paragraph so you know I think there's something that we're also very cautious about as well in terms of what we can do with the models and how quickly we release them without without let's say with with full testing but I see legal releasing models way quicker than we released them like as soon as Fable 5 is out it's like the next day Fable 5 is available on our platform I think I've got my engineers testing it yeah yeah I love you I had a firm like hey when are we going to get Fable 3 file don't make it so kind of like we need to do some stuff on our side first we can't just throw that into your tax software yeah no no come to you again and that's really interesting I just saw this comment I think they're going to start charging this legal space based on output not unlike it's like V anymore I saw the Gora or was it Harvey one of them was they said the Gora calling one query cost them 20k to do a contract review because of the stack but that's Harvey yeah but it's like you know like I'm gonna I've been talking about doing a whole blog on this because I'm so fascinated by this again it's like the contract sizes though a little bit different as well you know I think having really good relations with focus in the legal space and I've come to read that their contract sizes are about 5x with R's is yeah and subsequently they they can command certain you know pricing but also that comes down to what the firm is willing to pay you know with us we could also throw you know table 5 and you know if someone listens to this in the future it's like these customer table 5 we're at 7.5 right now but like at the time today like table 5 is incredibly expensive right to compute and to put all of this through one system but it's like F declines willing to pay for it well why not so I think you know in our world many of the bigger. are willing to pay for it. Many of the more mid-market firms, maybe not. So it is all kind of comparative. We obviously have to bench against what the incumbent's charge and what the cost relatively human labor would be as well. So it's multiple factors outside of like just give them better models and give higher price points. We also have to also bench about what is realistic. And illegal, you have a 10,000 page litigation and you need an answer within 45 days and you've got to draw something like yeah, maybe you might lose a court case worth 10,000, 10,000,000 dollars. You're willing to pay 20 grand. No fair enough. I feel like risk mitigation and incentive are like differently aligned in different industries specifically like where accounting comes in but believe that with the advisor role coming in with all the tools that we're going to have, maybe that will like push up the pricing on what value we can provide our customers. I mean, customer CPS to their end users. So as we wrap up though, so as we begin, confidence season part tour part two, what confidence is where your team will be at, where to find them and how to best get in touch with like your specific organization. Yeah. So we'll be on the, sorry. I'll be on the road. I will be on the road. I'll be reaching the gap coming up in a few weeks or really looking forward to that. And then I think digital CPA and into next to Randall first of the year. But and yeah, we're on, you know, fund us on www.abacol.com, you know, schedule Devory and actually to Lee Rose point earlier, like we've actually been mostly like to get started on abacol, you've always had to talk to like one, you know, one of us to get onboarded. But you know, by the time on this call, we're actually going to be activating itself. So which is going to be super, super exciting. We haven't had, we haven't done that in the last six months of like abacol yet. And we wanted to really just like to Lee Rose point, build trust, you know, making sure we're solving the right problems and, and you know, we're very excited for that. And maybe one final plug before we wrap up, I'm super excited for the future on the industry industry. And to your point out, I'm like, you know, maybe accounts will live in club one day and I can't wait for the future where it's like, you know, based on this meeting in abacol, start doing the test research in the Zora and then auto populating failed. Yeah, like that will probably be the prompt in the future, right? Well, I'll be pardoned. Everyone will be pardoned. We leave me pardoned with the incumbents, whether or not we like it or not. There'll be one prompt where you have abacol, the Zora info. That is very true. And on the, on the road shows, NACP, N-A-E-A, or coming up in July and some of us synergy and DCPA. But yeah, I'm looking forward to those and our teams will be present. So I'm fine. And file.com, check it out. It's pretty easy. File. And San Diego this year, right? Yeah. Yeah. Instead of watching TV. Yes. Yes. Much warmer. Oh, but I found that digital CPA is, you know what? I might not be there. No, it's like two, three weeks before which my wife is due to give birth. So that's definitely not going to happen. Congratulations. Thank you. Christmas time, Lee Roy. But sorry, it's like, yeah, it's December 20th. So, yeah. So your first one has a sibling now. Exactly. Exactly. So it's, I'm doing found the mode of difficult setting. It feels like bottom. Hey, yeah, you were like the other founders were just recently. A few of our other founding communities just had their own children. So we can all share tips over there. There we go. There we go. Okay. Perfect. Thank you guys so much for having us here. And thank you guys for listening, which is Adam, like sounding about from Bizarre. And as all those stakeholders, guys, thank you. All right. Thank you.