Why Many Startups Burn Money on Ads Without Seeing Results And How to Fix It

Hello, Amara. How are you doing today? Hi, I'm good. How are you? Good, thank you. Good, thank you. We are towards the end of summer in our location. So I'm trying to take advantage of all the sun we have. Go to the parks, play tennis, whatever I could do to grab more sun. Oh, you're lucky. We are in peak of our summer. We have so much summer love. That's good. That's good. Great. So, Amara, before we start then, do you have a favorite quote? Something that motivates you, inspires you. You would like to share with that audience. Yeah, absolutely. My favorite quote that I really, really like actually comes from a comic strip. It's in Calvin and Hobbes, Bill Waterson put it in his comic strip and it's called, and it goes like happiness is not enough for me. I demand a euphoria. And the thing I really like about it is it's not so much about like, you know, just a positivity thing. I think what I resonate with a lot is that it doesn't settle for fine. You know, it doesn't settle for the general idea of just doing okay and, you know, settling for in your comfort zone. It goes for, it really pushes you and asks, you know, demands you for it, asks like something that truly drives you and, you know, gives that sort of a purpose. And I think that that really resonates with me as a person. So I, I really, really like that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it totally gives you food for thought, for sure. Yeah, great step. So Mara, let's jump straight into our part, then. As you know, that we have almost around 28% people on our show who have some kind of seed funding or investment from angel investors. And they're working on their startup remaining. We don't have the split, but we definitely know that they're the people who are, they're 9 to 5 right now, but they're desperately trying to get into the former space, right? What do you think? What could change in the lives of our listeners? You know, the person who is listening to the part, if they truly took to heart everything, you're about to share today about business marketing, success, confidence, and then put it into the practice. That's the real out. But I think two key things that I would highlight on this. One, specifically, I think more so for the startups, because I've been on that side myself, and I've, you know, handled PNLs and dealt with that sort of issue or constraints when you're struggling on runways and having to report to investors is, is that you, is a lot of the times our, our issue as a company or as a startup is not that we don't have, you know, traffic. We don't have a traffic problem. It's more so that we have a friction problem. And what it really needs is a, either a fresh set of eyes or a fresh view at what, you know, how things are going. And I think, well, when we get into the, you know, conversation, we'll get into more about like how I see that, you know, with the UX and UI. So I think that's one thing where, where I think people should definitely take away is that, please stop burning your precious ad dollars. I understand that, you know, that bottom line is crucial. So, so say that. And I think the second thing, and I think this is, again, for both, but I would say more so for the, the nine to five people who are probably, you know, maybe thinking of making the switch, you know, where I was earlier is, would be more along the lines of not letting their expertise at risk management become their ceiling. I think what you were excelling at your career. And what corporate is really, really good at is, you know, is teaching us scale is teaching us all about, you know, managing and giving us exposure. But what it rewards is how good you are at risk management. But at the same time, what it really, really, you know, what it does is it instills the sort of fear in you of being able to take those risks yourself. And that's the number one ingredient you need in order to be able to bet on yourself. It needs to, of course, be an educated and a calculated risk, but it still needs to be that sort of a risk. And I think your risk management, you need to understand when it's becoming your ceiling. And I think that that is the second part that I would say, I really hope people, you know, take away from how to kind of unlearn that behavior and, you know, work around it as you, you know, take on that journey of moving from that 95 or planning on moving from that 95 to, you know, your entrepreneurship career. Definitely definitely. And I couldn't agree more with you on the second part because I don't know if you have heard about the pottery experiment where they did this experiment for 25 people, well, group of 25 people, A set, and then group of 25 people, B set, to the A set, what they stated, what matters is the quality. So if you create a pot, which has the best quality in the world, you win the competition, right? And then the set B, the other 25 people, they say, you don't care about the quality, it's worth how many pots you make is what matters. And the result of this experiment was that the set B group of people actually not just created as many thoughts as possible, but they had the best quality of pot also because the number of pot they created, they eventually learn how to improve the quality. Exactly. And I think you're so right. And it's high in, you know, to this principle, which actually while I was, you know, I listened to one of the pot, to one of the earlier episodes. And I remember one of the guests mentioning one of his favorite quotes where he said, you know, perfection is the enemy of getting things done. And I really liked it. I think we reduce, you know, do this where we are so busy in trying to make things perfect that we never actually pushed things out. And I think that's, you know, one of the things that we really need to is keep pushing it out. And then iterating as we go, but if we keep, you know, waiting for that perfect moment, it doesn't come, you know, so you kind of get yourself stuck in this, you know, sort of situation waiting for all the elements to align. And that simply just does does not happen. Indeed. Indeed. Great. So let's take a step back. And I'm really, really interested to learn more around like how the founders could could save their add dollars, right? One of the biggest challenge founders face in their life is once they have any kind of investment available, they have to focus on delivering at least 10x, right? Yeah. And we know that for sure that almost nine, nine out of 10 founders, they don't know how to market, they don't know how to advertise, right? So the first thing we do is hire an agency or something who could actually does it for us or potentially try the waters are sell by going to these different platforms and advertise things. Would you be able to share an example from your real-life experience where you help an organization where something was broken in terms of design or the funnel was created or organized or the way the data was flowing? And then how did you help them to make it success? And what was the impact of it? Absolutely. Let me tell you about a health and beauty brand that we actually worked with not so long. These guys, you know, they they came to us and they they basically actually dealt with very high quality, you know, health and beauty organic products in the Middle East, you know, region. It was a e-commerce website, predominantly mobile traffic and, you know, we looked at their products and they were sourcing very, very high quality, very, you know, organic certified products. They they had all sorts of, you know, lab testing and everything done. So the sort of stuff that you you really expect, you know, people to be interested in, especially I think in today's day and age when when people are more cautious of these things and, you know, we're we're very conscious of of what kind of goods, you know, we put in our body and so forth, right? So in and I think the biggest issue that they said the first time they came is and they and they were like, our revenue has stagnated for over a year. We have done everything. I have, you know, tried marketing agencies. I have tried, you know, doing blog content and it's it's just flat. It's it's flat at, you know, this level and it just doesn't move. And I was I was quite surprised specifically because he talked about, you know, so taking so many initiatives. And so we we started working in our method is is very simple. Before we do anything, we just do a huge deep dive. So we went in and just got all the data and I just did a thorough, like, you know, analysis of like the the website myself. And before I even look at the data, what I love to do actually is just go through the website myself as a user, right? Before you even look at the data, before you're you get biased by what is, you know, what the users are saying or where the restriction just look at it with fresh eyes and see where where you yourself are getting confused, where you find frustration or what you feel like is missing and kind of like, you know, putting those notes down. So I did that and then and then I went into all the data, all of your, you know, Google Analytics, your clarity, heat maps and your session recordings. And when I went when I had all of it, there were three key things that I realized. One was the way that there were website looked in the actual price point of their products and the nature of their products were pulls apart. This website looked like it would sell, you know, casual groceries to a wholesaler, right? B2B wholesale vibes is what it was, you know, it was, was the sort of theme it had. And instead it was catering to a health and beauty. So you know your target audience is, is women, it's, it's, you know, ages 25 to 40, you know what it needs to have certain looking feel. Their home page was, you know, very clustered, not really very easy to navigate in worst of it all. And I think, and this is something that happens so often is people have a beautiful page, but it's so slow and people don't regularly do speed tests, right? So we looked at the speed test and it was, it is really slow. And then, so that was another problem, you know, that we, we got, and, and then I looked at the, the blog pages, because I remembered he mentioned that, you know, we, we actually do write blogs and I saw on, on the Google analytics as well. They had immense traffic coming in. Their blogs were performing phenomenally and, and I couldn't understand why this traffic wasn't converting because the content was also like, you know, it seemed okay. And, and so I go on to the blog page and I realized a person that comes on to this blog page and there's actually nowhere to go. They've never actually placed their products onto the blog pages. So they, so they tell you what these products are good for. They tell you how they're, you know, good for you or how to use them, but would they never actually tell you or give you a way to do is just a link to that product on their site in a way to just add it to cart bin and there. And as a user, I now don't want to go and find it, you know, I'm already here. You just have to kind of, you know, make the whole journey easy for me. You have to really just hand it to me on a platter. That's, that's what good user experience is is handing to me things on a platter, whether that's the definition of what you do as a service or whether that's a particular product I'm looking for. That's what intuitive design is all about. And so the initial plan actually was that we, you know, were supposed to do a lot of things like AB testing and everything, but before we even got to that, we actually, you know, just did a very simple, you know, fixing of just the homepage elements, just placing, you know, the products, just fixing up some stuff so that the speed itself gets sorted so that they, they start seeing, you know, faster returns before we get into the AB testing. And you won't believe that they, they saw like a 40 percent increase in, in their monthly revenue would, would just those quick fixes. So, so basically you're saying that they improved the speed and they just put a link next to the block post and that was the game. And we just made the homepage easier to navigate to navigate. To navigate. Oh my God. Wow. And what was the numbers look like? Like, how, how was it before you implemented it and how was it after? So they were doing about $40,000 per month before and after that, they were doing about $55,000 per month. Okay. So, revenue wise, it improved $15,000 every month, but what about the tick-through rate and do you have any understanding of that? Yeah. They're, they're blog traffic, which initially, they were getting about, you know, ATK visitors on, on a, you know, particular page and they had great tick-through rate but zero conversions. Now these, these pages were driving 4 percent CTR, 3.5 percent CTR, so a huge uplift. And again, this, this is just, just the addition of the links. Then after that, of course, we went into our actual, you know, program where, wherein we, we did the iterations and, and the AB testing, which, which, of course, lasts longer, but the, the thing here is that so many founders, you know, get lost in, in AB testing and, you know, these things that take longer times and those are very, very important for your business. But there's also a lot of things that so many businesses, you know, have already tested and there's so much information that's already available just to experience in those, you know, quick fixes or obvious fixes already help you recover a lot of revenue that you're just leaving on the table today before you even get into, you know, the, the, the more technical stuff that you, that helped you realize a revenue like maybe, you know, two months or three months down the line. That's interesting. That's interesting. I think more around the state and the way in navigation worlds and how you help them out understanding it because you've gone through all of their, I, the biggest thing was it, I think their website never really spoke to their customer, right, their, their customer was, was this young female audience, they, they were, you know, they're used to these Instagram feeds, fast feeds, polished feeds, it looks and feels a certain way. And their website did, provided them the exact opposite experience, right. It was, it was slow, it didn't look nice, it wasn't easy to navigate. So it had all the right products, but it didn't get them any of the right experiences. So when it brought them from channels like Instagram and all of that and then put them in this sort of an experience, their bounce rates were like 60, 70 percent and now their bounce rates were, were down to, you know, 38 percent, 40 percent indeed, indeed. And then when you, when you say the improvement was done, you suggested those improvement and then then one of their tech person implemented it right? No, so we, we actually do the UI design and, and the UX design ourselves as well. So it depends venture to venture. Some people do have designers themselves as well. For example, this one, you know, manufacturing company that we worked with in China, they, they had a huge outfit. So they had a large team of graphic designers and it was more advisory. But with startups because often, you know, they have very lean teams, it doesn't necessarily make sense for them to have a lot of people available for these sort of things. And a full time resource, you know, always doesn't even make sense for them for, for shorter distance, it's easier to kind of have, you know, studios come on board and help them get the job done. And then they can kind of, you know, accrue the benefits and go on until they are at a stage where a full time resource actually fits on, on their, you know, balance sheets and piano. Indeed, indeed. Now, let's move on to some fun part of the, which is, which is the advertisement, right? Yes. You've been in the industry for a while. Can you be able to share a real world example where you helped out designing the ads? What format was it? And why you chose that format? If you could give us the context of the company also that would really help understand like why you went through that channel, I would really appreciate to understand the process of it. So understanding the industry of the customers, business, then why you choose whichever channel you chose for, it could be met a Google or Reddit in that sense. I mean, Reddit is a very small clear. And then why it did work and was there anything, well, didn't work and what do you change in that? Yeah. So this is actually a very interesting question. And so our work overlaps a lot with, you know, advertising because it carries on from that journey, right? What people spend on paid ads, on platforms like Meta and Google and all these places, it directly brings them onto the platform. And then our main core, you know, work is about optimizing that traffic that is on to your platform, whether that's your website or your app and so forth. But what a lot of people, I think, get wrong is that they look at these in two separate parts. Right? And so I think that's where the part that you mentioned, you know, which particular channel that you use and why becomes a very interesting piece because I think when you look at it as a whole funnel, you realize that there is certain traffic that, you know, is converting a certain way or interacting with the product a certain way. But you only see that if you see the whole funnel, right? So you know, a lot of times the paid ads team, it's just looking at your raw ass numbers and your click through rates and, you know, how much revenue, for example, is generated. And those are their KPIs that they're optimizing, right? In your website team is optimizing for conversion rates, but nobody is actually optimizing for the two together. So we were actually, this was a food delivery company. And we were actually trying to optimize the overall conversion rate and drive, you know, the overall customer base as a whole. And what we noticed here is, is that a lot of the ad dollars that we were spending when we truly looked at the whole journey. So on paper, our ads were actually performing really well. Like when we talked to our paid marketing team, you know, they kept telling us like our raw ass is actually really good and they weren't wrong. And you know, when we looked at our conversion rates, it looked decent and that wasn't wrong. But we still were not in line with the revenue targets that we actually needed to have. And no matter how many simulations I ran, the numbers just did not hit where we needed them to. So I was like, okay, let's take a step back and let's just look at the entire funnel. So the team and I, we started mapping out the entire funnel, everything all the way from the top, all the way to the bottom. Where are all these different people coming from? What are they doing? Where do they go? How much are we spending on each channel for, you know, referral, all of this stuff? And what we realized is that there were certain channels where we were spending a lot of money. And these people, the ROAS showed, you know, decent because these people did come onto the platform and buy, but they were actually placing very small, you know, value orders. And there was another platform where we were spending, and for some reason, those, you know, that particular audience seemed to be spending greater value orders. And so now we needed to figure out, okay, why, why is this happening? Why do I have, you know, my Google ads people spending a higher AOV versus my meta ads, you know, spending a lower AOV? And we, when we deep dived into it, it turned out that it had a lot to do with, you know, the visuals that we were doing in the sort of retargeting and segmentation we were doing, but also that at some point, you know, there was an additional CRM that had run. And so there were certain categories that we were pushing that actually had nothing to do with the ads, but because we were pushing these categories that push higher attention and more frequent category top-ups that the combination of the two actually, you know, created for the Google ads a perfect combination, which, you know, automatically drove a higher AOV. And so over there, we were seeing like a $30, you know, basket value where, where for meta, we were seeing like a $22, $23 basket value. And so we took those learnings and we kind of, you know, homogenized it across so that we could overall increase our average order of value. And that significantly helped us, you know, get to the numbers that we needed to. But I think as a team, it also taught us a lot about what questions to really ask where we're going in, because initially we all thought we're asking the right questions. We have all the answers. It's just not possible, you know, the number, the target we've been given is just too high. And I think what we learned, what we were truly humbled by, I think, is that it was us. We were simply not asking the right questions. We weren't looking in the right places. And when we did, we found, you know, the information we created, the right fixes. And we were able to hit the numbers. That's very interesting, because I think one of the things I've learned about meta as a platform for advertisement is meta has this agreement with the governments in Europe, at least, that they cannot actually show too many ads to users on their phone. Now, this agreement has these small estricts in there, which says, if the ad is a video ad, then let's say, for example, for a one-hour session, they cannot show more than three ads. But if the ad is an image ad, then they cannot show more than 25. So it's in their benefit to promote an image-based ad, because then they can make more money. So when you put an advertisement on meta, cross-platform on Instagram, Facebook, and all over other products, what they tend to do is they tend to push the image-based ads more often. And in my little or many experience with advertisement for our learned is the more polished your ad is, the less clicks you will get. It has to be, like, naively built by a five-year-old. How much raw it needs to be if it is an image ad. And if it is a video ad, then it has to be raw, bad audio quality, bad video quality. And then it tends to get more clicks, because it doesn't feel like an ad. That's really cool. That's really interesting. To be honest, I think you're probably definitely right on this, because I have never spent a lot of time working on the actual creatives of this. My work comes in after the traffic is on the platform, and most of the insights I'm able to share with the pay team is just more along the lines of what is the traffic doing that they've brought in, so that they can kind of use those insights to engage these better. But this is a very interesting insight. This is very cool. Have you ever came across an Australian entrepreneur? His name is Sabri Subi. No. I have not. So he has spent somewhere around half a billion dollar on advertisement, like one of the biggest consumer of ads for Facebook. And he claims that he has generated six sex more for his customers. Minimum. Average goes 40, 50x, right? And he has made a lot of advertisements or creatives for the ads, and most of his ads are seriously raw. And whenever you look at his content, he always say that do not make polished ads at all. People know instantly that this is an ad. So that's what. And the content around that, so do not put a lot of content on the ad itself, put a lot of content on the text box, so that it's like that, like, tactile and everything. And that's how he uses ads. And the reason I'm mentioning his name is because after losing thousands and thousands of pounds on a different advertisement, so I've lost around 500 pounds on Reddit. Reddit is a very good platform if you have a developer-related product. So if you have a white coding product, if you have a product which is relevant to the developer, more techy people, then Reddit is good. Otherwise, marketing on Reddit is a very technical thing because I think in terms of Reddit marketing, for it to truly work, it's less about the ads that you run. And what I've noticed is, especially now today, with the rise in the lens and the conversions and the citations based off of that. A lot of it is actually driven by the actual content. So it needs to be more content marketing. And because Reddit is very, very strict on AI-created content, you also cannot just have like your agents just like stopping or putting marketing content everywhere. So it has to be very skillfully done. But at the same time, the sort of conversion or the sort of visibility that content is able to create is quite significant. Although I do know that I think in February, they came out with a report that said YouTube has overtaken Reddit by a couple of percentage points in terms of, you know, citation share and YouTube is now doing the larger share, but they're still pretty, pretty close and those are your two biggest ones. But again, it's really, it's more so, I think more and more content-driven and less so, you know, about where you're able to place it. Indeed. Indeed. Maybe I can quickly show the ad library from this guy just to give a taste to our listeners. Oh, yeah. I'd love to see that. Like, why? Why when, you know, we are bothering to even look at it. So let me know when you can see the screen. I can see it now. Yeah. It's running right now, summer at 40 active ads, right? I've filtered it with active ads right now. If I select both active and inactive, that will be more than 1000. So this is the number of ads it's running right now. It has written multiple books, but I think it's best selling books is the sell like crazy. And look at his ads. These ads are literally picture taken by his phone, I guess, right? Or a screenshot from Amazon, some video ads here. Yeah. And mostly, I think the ads are sort of like a lead magnet sort of ads, right? He writes a lot. And then I'm sure he's not doing it by himself. He has a lot of people working for him to get these ads pumped out. I mean, 740 active ads, that's an insane number of active ads, yeah. So that's why that's what I was talking about, like, why this? So I'm assuming with that, like, you know, high a number of ads, he's probably got like very, very specific and targeted ads for every particular segment and for every particular push. I'm guessing. I mean, usually people do let meta decide it because they're doing really good in terms of their AI and the algorithm to find customers for you now. So I just filtered it out with memes and these are the ads, let me see if I can. no image and no video. Let's see if we can find anything. No, nothing. So mostly it is image and videos, right? Which makes sense. Yeah, because that's what. Oh, look at that, right? That is so fun. I love it. I love these are. These literally using Mark Zuckerberg's face. They're really random pictures with Lambo as well. Yeah, so there you go. All these as I'm sure he's getting tons of clicks on these at because they are they look viral. They're very raw and you know, it's crazy, right? So yeah, that's why yeah, that's why I wanted to share this and then talk about it to our listeners. Great stuff. So before we go towards the end, Mara, I wanted to ask you a personal question. Throughout your journey and experience, there must have been some valuable lessons learned, right? If you don't mind sharing, could you reflect on your your experience and tell us about one mistake or a setback that you encounter the longer way that you now consider not a regret, but a lessons learned, right? In your life. And additionally, what advice would you give our listeners based on that experience? Oh, so many lessons learned. But I think that's so important. I think one of the main ones is with regards to I would say being able to focus in terms of what I want it to do. I think when I first, you know, came up with the idea of procession. Actually, within that, there were two layers, you know, to the lessons I think I learned. One was first of all, you know, being able to give yourself the permission to be able to pursue, you know, something like this and do some, you know, and kind of take that sort of a route that's not in line with the sort of initial, you know, route that you had charted for yourself. Especially, I think when you think it's, you know, it's difficult. I think it's, you know, more so for women out there, it's harder to break into, you know, any industry. It's harder to kind of, you know, go out and get that sort of authority and be able to establish yourself in a particular place. And you'll, you just generally, I think, have to do a lot more in order to be able to sort of, you know, own your place in any, you know, situation. I think having already had to do that for a larger chunk of my career, now having to do that with, with my own company, it was something that was quite frightening and quite a scary, you know, prospect of, would it be possible? Would it not be possible if it fails? You know, it's, it's going to be so embarrassing. And now I have, you know, I'm such a senior position in my career. I have so many colleagues, you know, what is it going to look like? So there's, there's a lot of, you know, what ifs and, and reasons not to that kind of, I think, slow you down and tell you that maybe this is not, you know, the route to take. And I think that's where I really like, you know, to go back to that quote that we started the show with is demanding that euphoria for from life and from yourself in taking that plunge in having that face in yourself. Because I think it's, it's so important to know, to do those things because of the value that, you know, is, is brought into the world in terms of the products and the experiences that people bring in by taking these chances, some of the best things, you know, that, that exists today exists because of the chances that people took. And I think I, the biggest, you know, one of the lessons I biggest lessons I learned, you know, then was to get out of my own way, right? I was, I was, you know, my, my biggest blocker. And I think the second thing was that when I, when I was first getting started, during my career, I had done so many different things, right? I had been, I'd started off in data and then I had worked in, you know, sales, I had worked in commercial, I had worked in growth, I had worked in product and I had worked across all these things. And so when I, you know, first started off, I was, I was, you know, telling myself, yeah, I can do so many different things for so, for so many different companies. And you think that being a, you know, multi sort of like a Swiss knife for any particular company is makes you more, you know, appealable or easier to sell. But I think that, that's, that's a big mistake. And I, and I was very, I would say, very, very lucky in the, to, to be able to kind of find those mentors who've been through that journey where they've made that switch, you know, from, from being a professional to being an entrepreneur and having been an entrepreneur now for like 10, 11 years and, and done this similar mistake. And they really helped me sort of like narrow down that vision and understand why it's so important to not go in 20, you know, different directions and really chart out what exactly it is, you know, that you provide as a solution. Because especially when you're first started, you want people to think of you, you know, when, for one thing, you know, every time, you know, they think of a particular question, they, you should be the name that comes up, right? Because in that comes up for everything, come, never comes up, right? That, that somebody doesn't come up, but, but the name that comes up for a particular task, it becomes synonymous, right? Like for Google became synonymous with search, right? Because that's what it was known for. It just went hardcore on that and everything else came later. And so that's, that's how you kind of, you know, really go deep into that. So, and I realized that's where I truly enjoy as well. I, I really enjoy, you know, solving that sort of puzzle of friction and, and CRO and, and UX run, I have very good feelings about helping people, you know, be able to drive their businesses. This is what I've done, you know, for, for the longest time. And, and so I just chop off all, all the extra branches and said, okay, this, this is my bonsai, you know, this is what it's going to be. And I think that, that is, is, is very important. A lot of the times we do this and we do this in a lot of different places. We do this when we're launching our MVPs with, with all the features, right? We have such a hard time figuring out what's actually going there. And I think that's another very, very important layer is what is the base thing that you're trying to solve for your customer and what is the least amount of tech or features that needs to be in there to solve that for your customer today. Everything else is extra and can go away. That's, that does not belong in your MVP. Got it. No, yeah, yeah, understood. Great. So, let's move on to our quickfire round then. I've got six quickfire round questions for you. At any stage, if you want to skip one of them, just give me a skip and I'll move on to the next one. You ready? Go for it. Okay, great stuff. What are the top three strategies to generate leads in 2026? You have to optimize for LMSO, GEO and AU optimization is key. You have to make sure that your, you know, your funnel does not have friction. There's no point in getting the traffic and then not, you know, letting people know where to go and make things easy to understand. The, the whole idea is not to tell people how great you are. The whole idea is to tell the people how it benefits that. Great. What book would you recommend to our audience and why? I really like predictably irrational by Dan I really, I think it does an amazing job at explaining, you know, why a lot of, you know, decision-making that happens in people's minds is not necessarily always logical, but it also gives you like a framework of how you can approach it. So, I think anybody working in product or in sales, this, this gives you great insights to work with. So, definitely, definitely go read that. Great. What's one attribute or characteristic in your mind of a successful founder? You have to have, you know, a thick skin and be able to deal with uncertainty. And this is one I had to struggle with because I was not a person who was very good at, you know, dealing with uncertainty and being patient, but I think both of these things are, you work out like you work out muscles you learn, but if you want to be the founder who who lasts beyond your one year, two year, three, these are the skills that you need. Definitely, definitely. What's your favorite personal productivity tool or habit? My habit, to be honest, tool, they change a lot. I, you know, will switch around quite a bit, I'm ADHD, so they keep changing gear in there. But in terms of habit, what has really, really helped is I put everything on my calendar and everything either gets written down on paper or everything goes into my calendar and that really helps me plan things. It doesn't matter whether it's to have lunch or whether it's to think about something, slotting things and giving myself like, you know, timeframes for certain things, I think really helps me be productive without being overwhelmed by things. Yeah, it's a, it's a hard, proved time-boxing method. Anyways, a lot of people, most of the people who have very busy schedule, they have to do it, especially with people who have, you know, low-focus problems. So I have huge low-focus problem. I'm switching between the tasks here and there, so I use that method myself. I have to like, force myself to stay on top. Like, even if I have friends dinner, I'll forget. So I have to put everything, like, what are the plans on the calendar? Nice one, nice one. What's a new or a crazy business idea you would love to post if you had time? I would actually love to have an open, you know, tool or something along the lines of trust pilot, which is run by the people, which does, you know, audits of ethical UX of different platforms on the internet, both automated and then with, you know, people run insights as well. I think that it, that could be a great way to hold both ourselves in the corporations and experiences around us accountable and also just to raise the bar overall, because I think today dark patterns have increased a lot in terms of frequency. And, and this is one area that we have a lot of the tech and the basis for, but this is a space that, you know, remains unexplored, but it can be super, super useful, especially with, with now the tools that we have coming with so many more people, you know, being able to have the creativity and the freedom to be able to develop their own stuff. This creates not just a accountability, but also learning repository for people. Indeed, indeed. And last but not least, what's an interesting or fun fact about you that most people don't know? What's an interesting? I am a certified scuba diver who is very claustrophobic, which is what I found out after I went under the water. Oh my god. But I really enjoyed it. I made it through. Like I said, like I said, you've got to have skin and you've got to make it through. So I really wanted to see the fish. And I was like, now I'm here. If the fish can breathe, you have no oxygen tank. You have to do it. You have to do it to see the fish. I have a very funny story about scuba diving, but I'm going to share it later on. So we have a new segment on our part where we ask our guests to ask a question to our next guest without knowing who they are going to be. The only information you have is they are going to appear as a guest on founders podcast, right? So I have a question for you asked by the previous guest. But before I ask you that, I would like to know what would you like to ask to our next guest? This is interesting. I want to know what is the most interesting, non through crime, business, but you know, interesting tactic podcast that they've been listening to that they think, you know, we we I or Anna listeners to check out all right. So what is the most interesting podcast they have been listening to? So basically their favorite one or something which is interesting. Yeah. Okay. Right. Let me note that down. All right. The question last guest asked to you is what is one quality that you would look for when you are deciding who would be your co founder or if you're hiring your first hire my based thing. I think for co founder or for first hire. I mean, to be honest, first hire, I think gives gives it still gives you a little bit of space, but co founder, I feel like it to me is basically like a marriage because there's there's just so much involved. So I think the level of integrity, I think, is a common trait that I see being very, very crucial in both, but especially for a co founder, trustability and integrity to me is core and it's, you know, that sort of value systems are very, very important to me. And it's it's the main foundation on which you know, precision is also built. So I think that for me is, is, is what I would look for in, in the person as well. Indeed, indeed. Well, Amara, thank you so much for joining me and sharing your story and packing last few years of business building. People want to get in touch with you if they have any questions. What's the best way to do it? You can check out our website at goprocession.com. Okay. Great. I'm going to put that into the description below this video on, on Spotify. So sign up to our newsletter to get in touch with Amara. I'm going to put her contact details also in the, in the section below. And thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your inspiring journey and the impactful work you're doing. Thank you guys. Well, we've been here. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on founder's podcast. Thank you.