Why Jordan Belfort HATES This Version of His Story | Nadine Macaluso

Hey, guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you. Ben, probably not the smartest thing to say. No, but it's not illegal. But I was so furious at the whole system at this point. Like, I'm just as young innocent girl. Guess did I enjoy the money? Did I buy too many pairs of shoes for sure? You know, but that was really it. I really went into this marriage to love and to have a life with this man. And so then he got arrested and I just was like, that's it. I'm done. I'm done. You filed for divorce right away. I didn't file for divorce right away, but I told him I can't do this anymore because also in the before he got arrested when I was talking to him about it. And I was like, this was really hard. Your drug addiction, your abuse. He was like, it wasn't that bad. Oh, he said that. Yeah, he said that to me. And I was, remember, I was getting sushi. And I'll never forget it. And I didn't know the word callousness. Now, maybe he didn't want to admit how bad it was for fear that I would leave him. You know, I don't know what his reasoning was. But that really, the lack of remorse was really the knife in my heart. Probably in his mind, I mean, I don't know if you can correct me from wrong here based on what you think, but he probably just looked at it transactually. Like, I gave you all these things. Probably. Yeah, everything you want. Like you can't deal with a little bullshit. Yeah, probably. I mean, I don't know, but that could be a take on it. But for me, that was, that was not correct. Yeah. And so then he went to our South Hampton House and I stayed in an Arbrokeville House. And that was my beginning of liberation. And he's under indictment, like talking to prosecutors about a deal. So you know he's going to jail. Yeah. Two. Yeah. And you know that that, like you said, like you now have the leverage, like he's going to be going away. You can take care of yourself, do what you got to do. What was the money situation like though? Did you just assume everything was going to be taken or? Yeah. I drove to the courthouse with a million dollars worth of my jewelry and I gave it up and they took it all. And I was like, take it. Oh, for his bail. Yeah. Ten million dollars a bell. Oh, so you still, you were given to yourself to bail him? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to abandon him. Like, like on the court. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to be like, I'm taking the jewelry. I'm out. I might have been like, bye bye. No, no, I'm not that type of person. No. And so we gave up everything we owned. And I was happy because it was blood money and I didn't want it. Blood money. That's how you looked at it. Yeah, I didn't want it. So you thought it was guilty of sin for sure. Yeah. I was like, I don't want this. If they're getting 11 counts of whatever they are, money was rein. I'm like, I don't want it. And the money was a trap. Yeah. The money didn't find me happiness. The money did not give me any protection or safety, which I thought it would. Right. So all the things that you think that money's going to give you zero. So I just was so I just wanted to be free and calm and drama free and peaceful. That's a that was worth a billion to me. That's well put really well put. Yeah. I mean, people have like the quote, like money can't buy you happiness, but it can help. If it's not, if all those other variables are given up, I don't think it really helps at all. No, no. I mean, I'm living proof that it's that is that it wasn't. It's it didn't make me feel any of those things that I thought it would make me feel. What did the therapist say at this point? Like once she's like, hey, I knew this all. She was like, I don't really remember, but you know, again, she was always there for me and. And it was at that point that Jordan, because Jordan was sober and his sponsor says, calls me up and says, Nadine, I don't care what you're going to do. You're going to leave him, you want to date, but if you don't go to this place, you're going to marry the same exact type of guy or meet the same exact type of guy. Like it was a psychological center. And I was like, no way, I called him up that day, checked myself in and I went to a place called the Karen Foundation. Wait, you checked your like a rehab center? No, it's like an emotional, it's kind of, it's really for people like us who were dealing with addicts, right? Yeah. And so it's like a five day intensive psychological intensive to heal. Wow. I don't think I've ever heard that's kind of a cool resource. Yeah, it's called breakthrough at Karen. It's still there. It's Karen Foundation is an amazing, amazing addiction center. They're all over the country now. The one I went to was in Pennsylvania. And it's just five days. Yeah, five days. So is this like just an intensive like getting to the core of, you need to recognize what happened. Yeah, like I didn't, I didn't know that I could say no. I didn't know that I didn't know about boundaries back then. Nobody was really talking about boundaries now. It's, you know, everybody talks about boundaries. It's like every other word. But so I learned all these things. I learned about my family of origin. I learned about your family of origin. Meaning like, you know, my mother had just survived. And I was just surviving. I wasn't really thriving like today. I'm thriving. Yeah, right. Just learned about how to not my, I think my, the thing that they made my sentence be my caretaking made my life chaotic. Like my over caretaking. And so then I just really worked on that. And all the strings that went along with it. And they did family role playing. It was an amazing, amazing place. I'm sure it's even more incredible today. But that was the beginning of my new life. Yeah, so you, but that's like, that's almost like an intensive. What's the word I'm looking for? Not therapy session. I mean, that's what you're saying. It's obviously therapy. But there's another term I'm looking for. It's like an intensive retreat. Yeah, we're going to be like, hey, we're going to continue our reality. You're going to go home a new person. But like, this is not two months or three months or so. No, it's literally from six in the morning to 11 at night. They break you down. And they put you into two different groups. And it was the best thing I ever did. Now, is that what real, I mean, you were working with a therapist this whole time. So obviously like that interest is there for a long time, getting internal and stuff. But is this a real turning point in where you get? Like completely self reflective as far as like recognizing all of the psychological patterns that had gotten the relationship to this point? Yes, yes. It's the beginning of it. You know, they were like, your codependent and he's an addict. You know, now in my research and studies, I don't necessarily just agree with that. I think there was a lot more going on. But that was a really great starting point for me to really start to heal. And because remember when I'm in therapy with him, I'm just managing. Yeah. There's no healing going on. So it was a great starting point for me to heal. That's a great way to put it managing. Yeah. Yeah, I was just managing. And so now I just some like, okay, I'm never going to do that again. Now what else though did you think it was? You said you just used the terms, your codependent and he's an addict. Well, what were the other variables? Well, now I know we were in the quintessential trauma bonds. Right. You know, I had no idea again about narcissism or this course of control or intermittent reinforcement or these. intermittent reinforcement. Yeah, that's where 70% of the time they're they're cruel controlling abusive and then 30% of the time they're nice kind and generous and helpful. And that's actually what creates the bond. So I didn't know about all of these things back then. But but it was a good start and a good foundation for me to start to get my power back. Do you think it was also bipolar too? Because like these patterns, I'm not a psychiatrist. But these patterns are as you describe them are reflective of like hot and cold. Nice to mean not really a lot of 50%. Not a lot of 50%. Not a lot of 50%. I mean, probably, you know, I don't I would hate to diagnose him. Even today. Even today. Good for you. Yeah. But he so this like kind of starts your new life. Yeah. You get your kids. Is this when you start like the worst proceedings because he's going to jail? Yeah, I just say to him, I want to get divorced. He moves to one house. I'm in the other house. He's busy with the FBI doing whatever he's doing. And I had I had had a little company. I had a maternity company. A maternity company. Yeah, I made maternity clothing for women. Because remember, I'm pregnant. So I hate all the maternity clothing. And so I have a website catalog in a store. So I have my own little business. And I was dating. I was like, dating Michael Bolton. I dated. You dated Michael Bolton? I did. Wait, so you rebounded with Michael Bolton? No, just for fun. Just for a few weeks. And yeah, so you rebounded with Michael fucking Bolton. A lot. A lot. A lot. A lot. A lot of men. I think a golf pro. The guy that owns theory. Yeah. I was having fun. And then. So we are dating though, like right away after being in such a long relationship. We have to remember I'm 32. I know. Yeah, I'm ready to date. I'm ready to date. I haven't felt like I've been loved in years. You took a five day retreat in your life. Let's go. Let's do it. And so I was dating and working really hard and raising my kids and it was a happy, very happy time and then about a year and a half later I met my current husband. And how did you meet him first of all? On a blind date. Another kind of blind date. Yeah. Another blind date. Which is kind of crazy that I did that again, right? Yeah. Yes. I mean, the last one you knew the guy they'll come in, so it's like what, but how did who set you up? My old business partner and he had given my husband, current husband, his amazing dancer and he had given this girl's brother, but dance lessons for his bommets for something. So he knew her for like 40 years. And so he was living in California and he was in the garment business too. And I said, I'll go with anybody once, all right, it's given a world. And then that was it. No. Very nice man. Even before you got there, I want to come back. Yeah, go ahead. When you're starting to date these other guys, which, I mean, that's a Michael Bolton for a few weeks. That's a flex. But, you know, like, are you very suspicious of these people when you're starting to date? Yes. Because you're like, yes. Now I don't trust anybody. So now I went from being the most trusty person in the universe to not trusting. Yes. And now. That's going to be hard to develop anything when you're like, it is, it is hard. But now you have to remember, it's also not so much about trusting other people. It's also about trusting yourself. Because now I've gotten educated, I'm understanding myself more, I'm understanding relational dynamics a little bit better. I mean, compared to where I am today, I'm still green as hell, but I'm feeling, you know, I love relationships. I love love. So I'm ready to fall in love, but I want to, I'm ready to fall in love. Yeah, I'm very weary of falling in love, but I'm not against it. Okay. Yeah, I'm not against it. There's not out out of the question, but you're like, what could go right now? Yeah, well, yeah. Well, now I don't trust people. Yeah. Okay. So you meet your, no, current husband, you've been married, I guess, for like 20 years. I'm like that. So it's 20 years. 20 years. This one's a successful man. 23 years. Yeah. Okay. So what, what about him made you trust him and how long did that take? But, you know, what made me trust him was when we've had our first fight, he said to me, oh, yeah, I get that. I hear you and I was like, what? That's never happened before. I was like, you hear me, you're willing to collaborate, you're willing to cooperate? I couldn't believe it. What was the fight over? Something like, I don't even remember, but it was something stupid. It was like, where to go for dinner or something. I don't know. But it was, yeah, and I now I have a saying, if somebody can't hear you, they can't love you. Well, I might use that. That's pretty good. It's good. Yeah. I'll give you some creds on that. Okay. If someone can't hear you, they can't love you. Yeah. So you never felt like Jordan actually listened to you. You felt like he listened to respond, yes, rather than understand. Yes. That's a good way to say. Okay. So your new husband, when you're dating him, you felt like he actually saw you understood you. Yes. Yes. That's interesting. Yes. That's usually like, you know, when you break down anything in the world, not even just romantic relationships, any type of relationship, it never ceases to blow my mind how much the very first thing to go down in many cases is just communication. Right. And then everyone else's flaws get exacerbated by that if you have them. That's right. But like, God, it seems so simple, but you get those wires crossed even once with somebody unconscious. I know. Yeah. Yeah. No, communications, everything. And you have to be able, we have a collaborative part of the brain. And for some people, it's just not activated. And for his it was. And he's very care-taking, he would like, bring me tea, right? There's my acts of service, right? Right there. He's Italian. He's a great chef. Makes homemade pizza. I love pizza. I'm from Brooklyn. And so we just, and he had three kids. I had two kids. You're all the same age. My favorite show growing up was a Brady Bunch. I was like, here we go. And he said to me, I live in California, why don't you move to California? How long did that take? Like how you said, you were ready to fall in love, but you were like weary of it. So how, what was the timeline? About two years. Okay. About two years. Yeah. So you're filling it out for a while. Yeah. And then eventually just feel safe. And my, and then Jordan was wearing his ankle bracelet and decided to take a helicopter to Atlantic City. So he, I was actually able to move. Wait. What? Yeah. I'm so confused. Okay. So I'm dating John. Yeah. What year are we in? I know. So, yeah. No, no, no, no. We're like in 2000. No, no, no, no. Yeah. So Jordan's not in prison yet. Jordan's going to go to prison for six, seven years, he doesn't get sentenced for six, seven years. We didn't know that. Yeah. So, but he's out with his ankle bracelet and he's, but he does this stupid thing and takes a helicopter to New Jersey with an ankle bracelet. You can't do that. And so my attorney says to me, I know you want to go to California, you can probably go now. But why couldn't you go because he's taking the kids? Because he's dad. Yeah. Because I'd be taking the kids. Yeah. And I was in the looking to take his kids ever, but if he's going to be in jail before he's sentencing, which is really what happened, then the judge was like, tell her to go. And then we will, we left and we rebuilt our life. Did he, like, did Jordan have access to really any, like, you say your helicopter to AC? Did he have access to money at the time? I don't know, because remember, I'm not with him. So I have no idea what he's doing. You know, he will see. Yeah. And I don't know why he would do that, honestly, because we weren't talking. Yeah. I was like, he did that. All right. Was he in jealous at all that you were out there again? You know, my husband was really good. He said to me, I'm going to call Jordan and I'm going to take him for breakfast. I was like, really? Okay. And he did. And he said, I'm going to be around your kids. And I know what it's like to have somebody around my kids and I want to meet you. And did they get along? They got along right from the get go. Wow. I think Jordan really respected that. Now you go to California, though, was Jordan, because it's several years before he even goes to prison. Was he able to see his kid? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would send them back for the summers. And then he moved to California. Were you ever worried about that, though? Like, obviously, he loves his kids, but he's his own worst enemy. He's going through a crazy time. You know what? At that point, he was really humble. He was very sober. He was humble. He was. He was. He was different. He wasn't that grandiosity. He just, he was into the simple things. He was into the simple things. He'd bake cookies with them. He'd cook with them. He actually was with them doing things with them. And no, he was sober. And I always know how much he loves his children. That's a fact. 150%. And my sister was there at a lot of friends in Long Island. And I'm the type of mother that, you know, I have children with this man. I have to respect that. As long as he's a good dad and they're being safe with him, it's not for me to play God. You know, and be like, you get to see your kids like this or, yeah, that's not cool. I agree. But if there were ever a time where people would be understandable. Yes, they would be, but he demonstrated all, he was just really being a great dad. It's kind of crazy though, like how crammed this timeline is though for you to get to the zen. Yes. Because in a way, like, you're dealing with a progressively deteriorating marriage for what? Seven, eight years. Something like that. He's a drug addict. That makes it ten times worse. Yes. He then gets sober, but it's miserable for a year. He then gets a, he gets under federal indictment. He stays in fucking 40 years in prison and things go wrong. And like you divorce him, you start dating, you find a man you love, he does something stupid, you move to California, like this is all happening, like that part, the end, happens so fast. Yes. And yet you're able to get yourself to a place where A, you can fall in love with it again, but also B, like you can have the zen to step back and be like, you know what, he actually, you know, I hated this guy in a lot of ways, based on work out to, but he does really care about his kids, my kids, with him, and he's a good, like you used the words, like he's a good dad at that time. Yeah, yeah. He was great dad. So, and I'm just not, I don't know, again, if I thought they were unsafe, if I thought he was still doing drugs, but he was really a perfect citizen, except for the Lansing City thing, you know, for that little moment, but because he's being watched, right? So he's, he's very calm and. You weren't worried about him going back to drugs now? I really wasn't, because he's that type of person, you know, when, like once he makes his mind up, he's in it, yeah, he's, he's, he's really like that. And if I saw any signs of that, then that wouldn't be the case, but then he moved to California two years later to be with them, yeah, to be with them all before prison. Mm-hmm. So they'll let him move to California. They did. Yeah. How'd that work? I don't know. I don't know how we did that. Buy a judge. I know. - No, maybe I really-- - For some reason. I don't really know. Honestly, I don't know, but I just know he did. He moved to California and it was probably nice for him to. Yeah. It was really nice for all of us just to start over. Yeah. Yeah. Now how close was he to you in California? 10 minutes away. Oh, that's dangerous. Yeah. He was close. He was close. You handled this so well. I'd be like freaking out. Like, all right, maybe an hour. That'd be good. Yeah, no. It was okay. You know, I knew, I know how much I love my kids and I know how important they are to me. One of, if not the most common DMs I get on Instagram are many of you asking me what my favorite books are. Well, today's your lucky day because if you use the link in my description below to join my newsletter, I'm going to give you my top 10 book recommendations right now. Also, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make money producing content from the show, you can do so via the Discord link in my description below. And finally, you can join my Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes via the Patreon link in my description below. As always, please take one second to hit that subscribe button. If you haven't already, I really appreciate that. Also, the like button's a big help and you can join my newsletter via the link in the description below. So he did that. And I'm sure he wants to start over too. Yeah. You know, not be where everybody's talking about you and because California, New York's pretty far. Yes. Yeah, it's very far. A few miles there. Yeah. And it's a totally different lifestyle, a totally different way of being. And nobody knew like when I moved, nobody knew about any of it. Right. And I was like, bro, it up. Right. But it's not like if I lived on Long Island where everybody'd be talking about it. When you were like called the Duchess, like he would refer to that movie and stuff, were you ever because of his high profile rich guy running around New York doing some crazy shit once in a while? Was that like a public thing too? Were you referred that way when he was arrested? No. So that's just like a, that was like an inside. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you're totally anonymous. Yes. Out there. Yeah. There's no movie. There's no book. Right. There's nobody knows anything. Yeah. Yeah. So it was great. Yeah. So he didn't go to prison to like 05. Something like that. Yeah. Maybe 0506. I don't know. Remember exactly. But it was, it was a few years later. Yeah. Probably 05. Yeah. Let's do like three, four years. 22 months. Okay. So a little less than two years. But he had been with his kids as they're growing up before that. So how did you guys handle like, oh, well, now he's, yeah, we've gone for a little bit. We told the kids. We told the kids together. I don't even remember that. I think my kids probably remember it more than I do. But we did. We told them and they visited him with my uncle and my aunt would take them. I think twice. You didn't take them to do it. Definitely not. Okay. Yeah. Not your scene. No. No. And that wasn't my place. That was in my place. But yeah. So and then I restarted my life. Were you thinking at this time like you wanted to take your personal trauma and like actually make this into something where you could use as an expertise? Was that already a thought? No, it was never a thought. Never. It was not a thought. I actually just decided around 38 that I was going to go back to school to become a therapist because I believe therapy had saved my life. Right. Okay. So maybe I asked that wrong. That's kind of what I'm thinking. Yeah. But it wasn't like I wanted to help this population, which is that happens much later on for me. I just want to be a therapist to everybody. I'm not like, oh, I want to help women. I'm like, oh, I want to help people with personality disorders, couples, anxiety, depression. And so I go back to school. That's when he starts to write the book, or he had written the book. I don't remember. He might have written the book by then. Wasn't like Tommy Trump. Yeah. Yeah. Cause he did it in jail. So it had to be like 2005, 2006. So I'd go back to school. I think 2007. Okay. And I got my masters. And then you have to do 3,000 hours to be a licensed clinician. 3000 hours of face to face therapy. Okay. To get trained. Wait, that's a lot of hours. That's a lot of hours. Yeah. That's a good thing, though. Yeah, it's absolutely. Yeah. And then I, some like, oh, my God, I have to do this. I might as well just stay in and get my doctor while I'm doing the hours. And then I did that. And then that's when, yeah, I think it was like when we came out in 2013, and I finished my doctor in 2015. Now he writes the book. You had said this earlier in our conversation. He's like, I did it for us. And you're like, no, no, the fuck you didn't. Yeah. But it comes out, I believe, like it did pretty well. Like before the movie was a best seller. Yeah, it was very good. So you read it. Like you said, it's comedic. There's things that are certainly remembered differently. But how, how quickly after being published, did he first say to you, hey, they're looking to make a movie about this? You know, he always said it. I think all along, but I really didn't pay attention to it. I was like, it'll never be a movie. Yeah, I'm like, it's gonna be a movie. It's not gonna be a movie. But I should have known. I should have known. I should have known to believe him. When you should known to believe him. Yeah. Because when he said he would do something. Yeah, then he's gonna do it. Yeah, he's gonna do it. Yeah, that he's actually, I have to say this. This is really bad to say now, but it's been a while since I worked on Wall Street. Well, we were training to do our jobs. Yeah. Someone got a hold of the Stratton Oakmont sales manual. Oh my god. And I will admit, we did read that cover to cover. Yeah. I hope no one in the office saw that. But he was uncanny. Yeah. At being able to sell people, like we haven't really addressed that today. Like, yes. Yes. He's love bombing you. He's doing this thing. Oh, but he's selling me. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's nobody like him to sell. Like, like he could sell sand to someone in Saudi Arabia. It's unbelievable. It's true. To this day. Yeah. Did you ever see, because he did, I don't know if he still does it, but he did his podcast for a while. And he did an episode this had to be like five, six years ago with Grant Cardone. Did you ever see this or hear about that? I think I've heard about it, but I don't, I've not seen it. I've never seen his podcast. Grant Cardone, some psychoscientologist, he's like claims me all about sales. And Jordan, it's really hard to watch that and not think Jordan's 100% right because you can say what you want about Jordan with the fraud and all that. Yeah. He knows how to sell. This guy doesn't know sales at all. Like he doesn't know sales at all. Like you're sitting me and telling me stuff. I know it's not true. And you're like watching it. And you're like, holy shit, because he's just picking it apart and he can smell it. Yeah, he's smart. He's got the skill in both directions, which has got to be tough, because then he can use, you know, in the wrong ways, he can use that as a manipulation tactic, because he knows when he's getting sold or when someone's going to try to pull one around him. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. No, he's a great, great, great seller. Yeah. Now, when did you find out it was going to be Scorsese? Was that not until the call about can you know, I knew about that. I knew that it was Scorsese and Leonardo. I was like, okay, here we go. The hits just keep on coming with JB. That's just what happens. He's the gift that keeps on giving. Yeah. Yeah. And so no. And then I was just like, okay, you know, and it just again, it was bigger than me. There was nothing I could do about it. And so at some point, I was like, I'm just going to surrender because there's just, there was nothing I can do. Like, when you can't control a situation, am I going to ruminate about it? Am I going to fret about it constantly? I'm like, no, I got to focus on my life, my kids. And it ended up turning out very well for me. Yeah. Yeah. And you didn't talk for years after this came out. You just opened up a TikTok tool like a few years ago, I think. Sell 2022. What made you, because again, like, it ended up being iconic. Everyone can think of these scenes right here. Obviously, Margot did a hell of a job like making this iconic. But you know, what made you suddenly, you know, 10 years later or nine years later, whatever it was, be like, all right, you know, I'll come on and talk. Well, one of my young patients, because I had social, I had my Instagram since 2017. And one of my young patients says you have to go on TikTok. I'm like, I'm not going on TikTok. I'm like, I'm a 54 year old woman. I'm not filming myself every day. That is, that's ridiculous. She was like, Nadine, you need to go on TikTok. Shout out to Alex. And so I call one of my friends and I'm like, can you come film me? You know, so we do some films. We do some videos, but I'm doing it mostly about psychology. So then she comes over my friend to film me again. And I said, you know, there's this, there's this YouTube video on TikTok. I mean, on, there's this YouTube video that has a million views of me. She goes, what? I said, yeah, it's me with my father-in-law, Max. She goes, are you serious? And I said, yeah, she goes, we're going to start to film about the Wolf Wall Street. And as soon as she said that, I started to shake. 25 years later, I started to shake. Why'd you shake? Because I was like, because that scared like my body just, my body remembers, your body keeps the score. The body holds the trauma. And she was like, you can do it. It's time for you to tell your story. And I was just like, well, you know, there are a lot of women in my office coming in abuse still. I'm like, this is ridiculous. And so now I'm starting to think to write my book, right? I might have been writing my book at that point. I think I might have been writing my book. And so I did like a few videos and they went viral right away. Of course. And they were like, more, more. We want to understand more. We want to know more. Duchess, we love you. You know, and I was like, wow. It's amazing though that that would make you shake 25 years later when you think about the 15 years into that. Yeah. The movie was I would think that would make a shit. Even if it's not all true and they changed some things except of like reliving that to billions of people seeing it. - But it wasn't me telling it. - Yes. - Right? - It's not me, right? So, and I am a naturally, I'm an introvert, even though it doesn't seem like it, but I really recharge by writing and doing things like that. And so I was freaked out to do it. But I knew I could take this insanely popular movie and exploit it to help women everywhere. And so, 'cause that was what my book was about. - What did back to when it came out though? Like what did your now husband think about it again? Like he was cool. - He was cool about it. He just was like, okay, here we go. - It's like a married to a badass now. - Yeah, then what would happen? He'd go on the golf course and the guys would be like, you know, I saw your wife naked in that movie. He's like, it's not my wife. - I mean, it was symbolically. - Yeah, yes, yes. So he's very cool about it. He's great. - He didn't ask you to re-enact anything. - No, he didn't. He's just a great guy. So he was very supportive of the whole thing. - What about your step-kids too? 'Cause like they're like, you know, they weren't around for any of those work. - Yeah, that, you know, I don't know. Everybody was, you know, I think, and when you, when your parents, the fish stinks from the head. If the parents are cool, the kids are cool. - Yeah. - You know, we weren't like, oh my god, good job. I mean, I actually had Jordan over the day the movie came out. - You had him over. - Yeah, yeah. - To like talk about it? - No, because I have, it's came out Christmas day and I have my kids in the morning and he takes them in the afternoon. - Right. - And I could tell when I spoke to him, he was nervous. And I think my son had gotten like a weird phone call. And I said, you know what? Instead of going out, why don't you bring, why don't you just come here? Like I have leftover prime rib and potatoes and he did. - For old times sake. - Yeah, with his fiance and my husband and we watched old movies of the kids and yeah, so I had him over the day the movie now. - This is the modern family show we need right here. This is way, but I like this plot line better. - Yeah, I get that. - Yeah, that's cool. It's just really cool that you guys all had like such clarity on it, you know? - Yeah. - It, it, it, Lua, it's a cultural phenomenon. Like we'll be talking about it 40 years from now. - Right. You had the greatest director, the greatest actor of the era. And then everyone else in it was incredible. It's funny as well. Like can you laugh at it? Like obviously you have your own personal, whatever. - Yes, yes, I can laugh at it, you know? And I think it's important that I do get to tell my narrative now. - Yeah. - Right? And so that is the beauty of TikTok. And because, you know, I did suffer a lot, right? So, so what I can hold both two things can be true. I was very traumatizing and it's funny. And I get to use it. And to me, that's the best part. Now Jordan was not so thrilled once I started to use it. - Oh, he wasn't. - No. - No. - You get a phone call about that? - Kind of, yeah. - Yeah. - What do you, what do you say? - He just was like, your mom, I can't believe she's doing this to me. And I'm like, Jordan's my victim now, is he? - Hmm, she was on the other foot. - I just said, your dad made a movie and wrote a book. I'm always going to be respectful about it. I can do a three minute fucking TikTok. - Yes. - Yeah. - And he didn't consult you on writing the book and consult you on the movie. - Right, right, even though he kind of says he did, but no. And I just said, I'm not doing this to, I'm not going to say anything about your dad that he hasn't said already 10 times worse. - Right. - Right. So, I'm just going to tell my narrative and I'm doing it to help women and the train has left the station, I'm doing it. - Outside of some of the things they changed in the story or the timeline or little scenes that didn't happen, what do you think was the biggest thing about you, particularly that, I don't know, was misrepresented in there? - Hmm. I mean, honestly, they portrayed her as a young girl who's madly in love, who loves her kids, who's trying to like chase this guy's co-tails, right? And keep up with him. So, I mean, they just missed the depth of my character. I mean, clearly, who I am really in my authenticity. And I think that they showed me very, getting very jealous all the time about women and we fought all the time about women. We really never fought about women. We fought about his drugs, but that probably wouldn't have been as funny. - Yeah, to tell the story, I get it. - You know, because it's a lot sadder. It's a lot sadder. It's a lot darker. And you know, Terry Winter writes Jordan in a way that's the way he wrote Tony Soprano. - Yes, that's exactly right. I love Terry Winter. - Yeah, the very likable, you know, he writes about a very complex character. - Yeah, like you knew Tony Soprano was this narcissistic, flandering psychopath murderer, but you rooted for him. - But you rooted for him, right? - Right, so Terry Winter has a knack for doing that. So - Have you ever talked with him about that? - I met Terry once. I met Terry once. That's where the scene with the straw with the wine comes from. - Wait, that was real? - Yeah, that was real. - Do you still do that? - No. - Okay, that's good. I don't do that anymore, that's kind of funny. - It was a phase. - Yeah, but did you talk to him about that? Like, you know, you're making him lovable or you didn't really know at that time if you're just discussing that. - No, but I know I loved the Soprano's and I knew that about Tony Soprano. God rest James Gaines of the Phoenix. - He was incredible. - Incredible actor. - So good. - So I know that that's, I didn't know, I know that that's the way he wrote the character. So I'm not surprised at the way Jordan came across. - I think part of it is though, like, not all women, but there's a pattern where women at a high level fall in love with two phases of the man, right? They fall in love with the man and you can think the more, you know, usual traits, ambition, provider, protector, a lot of things you didn't get, by the way. - Right. - You know, as it would turn out, but they fall in love with that. And then they fall in love with the other side of the personality where he shows like the little boy sometimes. - Yeah, that's a very good point. Why do you know that? You're so, how do you think? - I've thought about that a little bit. - You're so psychological, yes. That's a very important point because often when I was with Jordan, I would have a lot of empathy for his little boy. - There you go. - Yeah. - 'Cause that's the thing, Tony soprano episode one. - Yeah. - Look at the ducks. - Yes. - You know what I mean? Like he's like a fucking kid and shit. - Yeah. - And there was this thing where he could turn on this, and Jim obviously did an amazing job showing this, but he could turn on this rage and this nastiness and this murderous whatever. And then the next minute, you know, want to hand you a few hundred dollar pills and go make some hot dogs or play with the ducks. And with Jordan, it's kind of like the way they showed it in the movie. And I don't know if maybe even if you look back on it, if some of this actually felt this way, while you were going through it, it's like, he's this crazy psycho macho man. But then, and he's got these horrible traits and he addicted to drugs and whatever, but then he'll do some shit where you're like, you're like a little kid and you almost want to care of him. - Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly, that's what creates the bond because these abusers aren't bad all the time. - No. - They're just not. - That's the tricky part. - Be sure you're the humanity. - Yeah, because if they were, you wouldn't be with them. And especially for somebody like me, I mean, clearly I'm highly empathetic. That's why I'm a therapist, right? Or I'd have no patients if I wasn't. And I have a lot. And so, but unfortunately, that empathy gets weaponized. - Yeah. You know, you say you're an introvert by the way. Like, I'd be surprised about that. I'm not because to do your job in a way, you have to be the kind of person that was always kind of watching other people rather than making yourself the middle of things. And you come across that way. Like, there's some times today where, I got a probe a little more than you would expect. You know, to get you to kind of go there. But that's like really good for what you do. That's an amazing trait to have, I think. - Yeah, yeah, and I love people. And I believe, you know, even after everything I've been through and after all the stories I hear all day long from women which are atrocious. All these dirty John guys that are just abusing and betraying and financial abuse and sexual addiction. And if I sat here one day, just invite me to come tell the stories. You'll have the best part on the planet because the stories that I hear all day long are atrocious. And what people can do to each other and love. - In love. - Yeah, supposedly, right, when they're in love. - Right, air quotes. - Yeah, is can be very, very disturbing. And yet, I'm still an optimist because I know the people can heal. - People can heal, do you think they can change? - I think they can change to a point, I do. - To a point. - Yeah, to a point, yeah. - Yeah, what do you think of Jordan today? - Today, him and I really don't have much contact. I mean, I saw him actually two days ago 'cause he was with my daughter. So I bumped into him. - Not much got there. - No, I don't. But we were just having to be at a restaurant in Westport together. And I just quickly said hello to him and walked away because I don't really have that much to say to him. Yeah. I just don't. I mean, he's a great dad. He's there for my kids. We got along, you know, when we see each other, but we're not connected in any way like we used to. I think me talking about it really created that separation. Yeah, because he didn't like that. Yeah. Do you think like I would say when I hear something like the fact that he freaked out on you for, you know, being able to actually tell your side of the story after he put everything public that there are aspects of him that certainly have not changed. Right. But do you think there are other aspects of him that maybe have for the better? Yes, for sure. For sure. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. He's happily married to a lovely young woman. He's like I said, he's great with this kid. But here's the thing. It's like, you know, these sorts of very toxic relationships and they happen all the time and what we have to do is turn on the news and I mean, we see them all the time. They're very hard to endure, but for me, it made me really look deep inside of myself. And I took it as an opportunity. Sometimes I say the wolf was my Buddha because if I hadn't, if he hadn't cracked me open like that, and I'm not giving him credit for who I am today, but that experience forced me to be deeply reflective and really grow. And so from that, now I have a career where I help hundreds of women every single day get out of these toxic relationships and it's beyond fulfilling. So when you asked me, you know, did I think I was going to help, you know, do this for a living in this capacity? I wish I could tell you I had some grand scheme. I was just genius that thought up this Machiavellian plan, but I didn't. And I offer that to your listeners to kind of trust the process of life, too. Yes. And it's just all emerged. I went through that. I moved. The book got written. I went back to school. The movie got made. Like you said, I was silent forever. You know, but then something in me was like, it's time. And it happened to also be probably because we're hearing about narcissism so much in the zeitgeist. So then I wrote my book, Run Like Hell. And so you just never know where life is going to take you. Yeah, it seems like you are somebody who you've never had a grand scheme on stuff. Otherwise maybe you wouldn't gotten into some of these situations. Correct. Then I think it's a good thing to have a grand scheme on any. No, but you're right, but you're right. Yeah. Like you, but what I'm saying, I mean, this is a compliment. It's like you let life happen to you. And then you're learning from things. And then through that, creating new opportunities that then puts you in a position for things you never expected to happen to happen. It's like, I think that's like kind of the beauty of life. Like, yeah, people will overuse this phrase where they're like, I don't regret anything I've ever done because it made me who I am today. You can abuse that phrase, right? Because there's things you probably would want to take back and things like that. But you can't change the things you've done or the experiences you've had. You can only then try to use the fuel of learning from them. And maybe you turn, you know, turn in lemons into lemonade. That's right. Kind of like you did. Yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't always easy. And a lot of very tough moments, a lot of tears. You know, I lost my mother to cancer. I'm a cancer survivor. I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah. So, you know, life. What did you want to do with cancer? Kids are when I was 39. Oh, wow. Yeah. And then I've had like some, some bouts of it. I've had it more than one. So I've in the middle of all this. In the middle of all this. Yeah. So, you're strong, lady. I'm a strong down about that. I'm a strong lady. So, you know, life is not easy, but that's why I believe in therapy. If you keep working on yourself, you can build resilience and resources because life is always going to throw stuff at us. No matter who we are, it just, you could walk out of here and get in a car accident. I mean, that's just the way life is. But my name actually means hope. Yep. So, I'm just a hopeful person. That's amazing. Yeah. What's that like, though? I mean, you're young. You're 39. You get diagnosed with cancer. Like, I can't even fathom that. It was, it was not, it sucked. I mean, I was really, really hard, but again, I had a lot of support. I caught it very early. You're like, I'm going to be good. That optimism kind of comes in. Yeah. It was scary. It was scary. Yeah. It was scary. But, um, you know, I've learned that where there's fear, there's transformation. Where there's fear, there's transformation. It's another bar. Yeah. We got a few bars today. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's the truth. And so we can't hide from life. We have to approach it. And I think I was lucky enough to have a good enough beginning. To give me that solid foundation. Yeah. And people don't have that. A lot of people don't. How much do you think? That's one of my favorite topics I think about this all the time. Because I'm, you know, and a different way than you with different life experiences. I like to think like I'm a very empathetic person as well. But I don't like to, I don't like to use that to excuse acts, right? Yeah. So I'm like an extreme example. I'm not going to empathize with a terrorist for blowing up a building for a hundred people. Correct. But what I do try to empathize with is how did they get there? Where were they from? What, what was their environment? Like how did that happen? Right. You know, as a therapist and someone who works with people psychologically, how much do you think, you know, I have to put a percentage on. I don't want to make it like weird. But like, how much do you think it's people are based on their environment, molding them versus like the free will of their decisions to get them to work? Yeah. They see, you know, I mean, the research has, you know, nature versus nurture, right? So 60, 40, you know, but did you see the new show adolescence? I've heard about it. I haven't seen it. You'll like it. You'll like it. You know, the kids, kids, a 13 year old psychopath, his parents are very normal. So, you know, I think that you, like, biologically, you could be born, you know, and then you mix it with a family and then a culture. Right. So it's always multiple causality. It's just not one clear linear thing. It's tough, though, too, because I agree. It's, it's multiple, but it's like, you know, people overused the line. I said this all the time where they're like, if I were blank, then I would blank. Okay. You don't know. In most scenarios, you don't know how you would handle something. It's very easy to like from your glass. Oh, yes. Yes. I would definitely be like this. Oh, yeah. No, you don't know shit. You don't know till your end. Yeah. But like, when I see some of some of these kids who grow up with nothing and then there's literally no opportunity. Yes. And then they get taken in and let's call it what it is, like, groomed. This is an extreme example, but it happens all the time in this country, too. Yeah. Yeah. We get groomed at age nine or 10 or 11 when that kid's, you know, riding around with a clock at 16 and shooting and discriminately out the window. Again, I'm not empathizing with the act, but like, statistically, I'm like, how the fuck was it not going to get there? Of course. Of course. Of course. Right. There's that saying her people, her people. Yes. Why? And that's why I do what I do. And that's why even come on the podcast, these podcasts, because I believe education is what's going to heal us. Yeah. Right. Education about psychology, education about relationships. It's the only weapon we really have because when I go to my house, my daughter's house now and I see her with her lovely husband, oh, they're 50/50 partners, and they have a beautiful boy and a baby on the way. We broke generational trauma. Yeah. It's amazing. Right. And that's what it's about. And they have a good relationship with both of you? Yes. Yes. Which is like, yes. That's amazing. It's amazing. So that's what it's about, right? It's she's a more evolved version of me. Her child will hopefully be a more evolved version of her if this world makes it at the rate that it's going. But yeah, that's what we're here for. I guess. When you were when you were doing your PhD, you said you went back at like 38. I went 38. Yeah. So you were doing your PhD like while you were battling cancer too? I think it was right after. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So when I went to my masters, I just I had cancer and then I got my master's, yeah. That's amazing. You did that. But so you got you got into becoming a therapist and you just said a few minutes ago alluded to it. So I wanted to go there like the women you ended up helping are women that sometimes have patterns that are very similar to things you went through. But then there's also all these unique situations and everything. Yes. You continue to learn a lot more about yourself than the past three of these women. Yeah. I mean, when I wrote my book, Run Like Helleth or Piscite, to recognize you and escaping and healing from trauma bonds. Link in description. Yeah. That was I learned so much more. I learned about psychopathy, Machiavellianism. I learned about the dark tetrad. Okay. Let's break these down. Psychopathy. Let's start down. Yeah. So there's a term called the dark tetrad. And it came out in 2002. And so it describes a person that has psychopathy, Machiavellianism, Sadism and Narcissism. All great traits. Yeah. And so we've seen these individuals. We've seen them with Jeffrey Epstein, right? They are in the zeitgeist, P. Diddy, P. Diddy, what do we call him? Short columns. And so they have psychopathy meaning they're beyond exploitative, highly callous. We'll just use and abuse anybody with, they have high stress immunity. Like nothing stresses them out, right? They can tolerate anything that you or I could could enjoy. Well, then there's narcissism, which is, you know, yourself absorbed you to connect. exploit people, but it's more about admiration and your image. And you can be very grandiose, or you can be a vulnerable narcissist and being more neurotic. And then there's Machiavellianism, which nobody really talks about. And that's when these people are highly strategic, highly manipulative, consciously, they're planning, right? There's a plan there to, but they have bad intentions. And then sadism is the worst, because that's a person who literally gets pleasure out of seeing the people that they know hurt and suffer. Do you think Jordan had that? Did you get pleasure out of making, I was going to say? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So, so, but there are people running around in the world. Oh, yeah. Right? Like your shoemakers down the street and your baker, that are dark tetrad. And they can hide in plain sight. They can put on another, it's the multiple personality. Yeah, they were the mask of sanity, which was a book by Henry, I clickly, I think the expert on psychopathy. Yeah, they were a mask of sanity. And so, so what happens is that these people end up in homes with children and wives and and that's what I deal with helping women. I educate them about it. So, you're coming across a lot of different clients who have literally dark tetrad. Yes, yeah, dark tetrad. Yes. And you're able to see like, oh my god. Yeah, they're a minute. Yeah. And as all these traits. Yes, yes, yes. Now, how hard is it? I mean, I know it's very person to person, everyone's different, but how hard is it to not necessarily get them to see what that means, but to get them to see that they are literally experiencing that? Usually by the time they've gotten to me, they've found me on social media and they're like, she gets it. Somebody, because usually these women feel very crazy and invalidated because that pathological partner is gaslighting them. Yeah, I didn't do that. You didn't see that, that didn't happen. And then so they're just totally feel crazy because they've been invalidated and they've been gaslit and they've been lied to and betrayed and manipulated. And I tell them, no, that did happen. And it's very painful and it's from somebody that you thought was going to love you. Do you come across people sometimes though that you work with where it's like maybe some things are just going wrong and they're thinking the worst, but it turns out to be like, oh no, you're not married to a sadist or something. It's just you don't come across that. I don't come across that because like I said, by the time that was quick and no. No, by the time they get to me, they've they know that that's because if you like if you go on my Instagram, I talk about Doc Tetrad all the time. I talk about all these concepts because I'm constantly educating people. I'm like, that's Jordan's wife. What are you looking at over here? She's like nice. Yeah, no, but so I talk about it all day long on there, you know, and I'm really educating all the people. Yeah, there's no, it helps also that you've been made into such a public. I mean, obviously you've now started to come out yourself, but you will figure who you are as such a public domain kind of thing. Exactly. So people are like, oh, she didn't just get educated about it, she's lived through this. So I have street cred and professional cred. Yeah, and like I imagine you got to have the conversation where you're like, well, a lot of the themes are right, but also here's other things that were happening that the movie doesn't show or the book doesn't talk about. So you have to understand like, I'm a person outside of that. I'm a person outside of that. But yeah, so they and they trust me and they know that I have the best interest at heart and I've been through it and I get it. There's nothing like experience. Experience is the greatest teacher on the planet. 100%. Yeah. So I've lived it. I get it. And I empathize with them and I understand that coercive control is real. Do you think in any like those dark tetrad, yes, start with the most the worst kind of thing? Like, do you think in any of those relationships, there actually is any love, but the person is sick. So obviously like it doesn't manifest right, but they actually do love them. They could think that they love them. Yeah, they can think that they love them. But the way I describe this person is that they will, I call them a pathological lover in my book. Pathological means mentally unwell. And I say this person will use harm, exploit and betray you to get their needs met from money, power, pleasure and status. That's simple. And that's not right. Because that's about intention. Yes. I mean, that's like my biggest thing with people. I don't I don't use this to explain away things that people do when it's bad or whatever. Like there has to be a medium there. But my number one thing with people is what are your intentions? If you have good intentions and you just like really fucked up, like, all right, well, if this happens seven times, we got a problem. Right. If it's a pattern. Right. Right. But people, we all make mistakes. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Because that's one thing about the social media or especially I feel like it's so unfortunate. We assume worst intentions at all times on everything with people. Yes. And I don't think that's fair. Like I watch people in my business get taken out of context on 22nd clips every day. It happens to me too. It does. And like, you know, I'm smaller, but I ignore it. I wonder if I were like the size of Joe Rogan or something. If I could ignore all this. I know. That's time. Because like you'll see like like they they didn't say that. Like I actually saw one today with Michelle Obama. So like there's this fucking stupid internet thing where people are like, oh, she's a man. So she literally. So she's talking to another man on a podcast. And he's a black guy. And she goes, so as a black man, you know, how does it feel to, I don't remember what they were talking about, but people then took that clip and they're like, oh, she's admitting she's a man. And it's like, you know, I know that's so stupid. Well, for clickbait, that's cool. It's clickbait. Yeah. That's really, really cruel. I know. Well, social media is the Wild's West, you know, when you have to have thick skin for it. And luckily I don't give a shit. What anybody thinks about me and come older, you know, I'm 57. So I have a developed sense of self. And and when I get a troll, which I really don't, and the only ones I get are now probably the guys that left Jordan. They're like, you just left already lost all his money. And I'm like, I'm not going to explain to this guy my whole history. I'm just like, I heard it or I just block and delete. There you go. You know, it's not worth it. And then I look, they have one follower. And I've never posted. Jordan might be buying Catori bot forms. You got to check that out or something from the Philippines. Maybe he's doing that. You know, so it's like, so it's, I think if you're going to put yourself out there, unfortunately in this world, I don't agree with it because that's the last thing I would ever do to somebody. But I don't know. The world is just getting meaner and meaner, unfortunately. Yeah, I mean, and you had kids who grew up as like I did. I guess they're similar. It's just to me. We're like, they grew up in the start to become a major thing. And now it is the thing. And now they're having kids. So your grandkids can't even imagine or grown up in the world with this and the screen everywhere. Like, how do you think? Like as a parent or just in general, like, how, how you can raise kids properly who are growing up with social media is like, and the internet and constant over transparency is the norm. Like as a therapist, like, how do you even go approaching that? I think what you have to do is you have to realize it's here. It's never going away. And you have to really teach them how to deal with it. You know, who would respond to? Who not to respond to? What age are you going to let them on? I mean, there should be lessons in school now about social media, right? And how? And how do we deal with it? It's not going away, you know? I mean, AI too, right? But listen, when you think about it, the radio, the TV, the computer, we're like, these things are going to destroy the world. You know, we're still here. That's a great point. You know, I think we have to also just learn how to deal with these mediums. I mean, I use Claude, which is my chat GPT person, what non-stop. Are you called about person? Oh, yeah. I'm always like, thank you so much, Claude. You're the best. You see, that's using like millions of dollars of computational. It's like saying, please, and thank you now. They're like, don't do that. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. So I'm not being came off the other day. Thank you. So I won't do that. Yeah. I just think I'm being nice. Well, my son told me to do it because one day they're going to take over. Be very nice. Don't forget about it. It's like, it's like when you look at the kid and you're like, he'll be the school shooter. I want to make him my best friend, make the AI your best friend. That's right. You make the AI your best friend. But yeah, I just think you have to educate. I think you have to educate these kids about how to use it. It's hard, though, because you can't helicopter kids at all times. No, no, no. You don't know what they're clicking. You don't know. And that's where you have to have a really great relationship with your children. Yeah. That they're going to come to you when things go bad, because they have to have their own experiences in the real world. That's how they're going to learn. And as parents, we can't freak out when they learn the hard way, because we have to give our children the chance to have optimal frustration. Everybody wants to like dive in and save them don't do that They got agreed on that. Yeah, you can't dive in and save them. I can't dive in and save them It's just they're dealing with stakes like we have more resources now that we did 40 years ago, right? So it should be easier to parent But in a lot of ways with the resources we have the price we pay is that there's a constant You know influx of things. Yeah, that aren't you that aren't that aren't that aren't them Yeah, so thank you guys for checking out this clip If you haven't already subscribed please subscribe and hit the like button on this video It is a huge huge help and if you'd like to check out this clips full podcast episode that link is in the description below Or right here and finally you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below