Why is YouTube content for kids showing up on Netflix, and Trudeau's new production company

- Luca Lazy Legs' Patuelli is a professional B-boy. He broke his leg at his first dance battle, really committed to the break in break dancing. I'm Jeremy Saunders. On Sick Boy, my best friends and I talk about illness, disability, and all the stuff you're supposedly not allowed to laugh at. Born with arthrogryposis, Luca joins us to talk about chronic pain, and why even bad asses need help. Sick Boy, available now, everywhere you get your podcasts. (upbeat music) - This is a CBC podcast. - You know, sometimes us parents, we just need half an hour to finish making dinner or hop on a call. So we plop our kids down in front of the TV and let them pick a cartoon from Netflix's Kids Menu. But these days, that menu is being flooded with more and more content from YouTube. I'm Emil Niazi, sitting in for Elimine of Del Mufmoud. This is commotion. Catherine Venier and Donk and Vass Bednar are here to talk all about it. Welcome back to the show. - Thanks for having us. - Hey. So let me start things off with this. - It's only a matter of time. It only breaks through and didn't slave us all. - We can't bite off an army, Jim. - We're sitting ducks. - Duh, ducks. So that's a little bit of the show, "Troll Hunters." It is directed by Guillermo del Toro. It has many incredible voice actors. And it's like an emotional, intelligent, funny show. I don't feel bad that my kids watch it, but they do watch it a lot. It's essentially taken over my life. But it's just a great example for me of what Netflix can be, like how safe of a space. It can be if you wanna, like I said, plop your kids down in front of the TV. Catherine, your parent, talk to me about your media diet. I know we kind of have a similar thing of letting our kids sometimes gorge themselves on Netflix. So why do you sort of let your kids watch TV the way that they watch TV? - Yeah, I have a very lax and very strict media diet for my kids at the same time. I will let them watch almost anything that they want in a Netflix, or even like an HBO, or a Disney in one of the traditional streaming platforms. I will pop in and check in what they're watching. I'll ask them questions about it, but I generally try not to police whatever choices that they make in those kinds of spaces. I don't let them watch YouTube. I let them watch YouTube when I am there and they wanna watch my older one in particular, who is 12 now watches craft tutorials a lot and spends a lot of time drawing tutorials and things like that. Even then, she has a very limited access to YouTube and any other sort of endless scroll platforms like that, whereas they can watch quite a fair amount of content in these other traditional streaming places. - Yeah, I have to say I'm very much the same, no YouTube in my house, but for the most part, I've been like, I think Netflix is a pretty like safe space. It's mostly just TV shows that have already been approved and whatever, but now when my kids go on Netflix, this is the first thing that they see. - Today, my daughter and her best friend become adults for 24 hours. They will be responsible for the Anazala family's adorable children. - We did a big thing, parenting is hard. - If they complete five epic parenting challenges, they win a mystery prize. Now I try not to be judgmental about what kids watch, but oh, it's hard not to feel this type of way about that show. That is the father, daughter, duo, Salish and Jordan Matter. They are among several very popular YouTube creators who are now on Netflix. Vass, you're also a mom. To those listeners who might not have young kids, can you explain the kind of fundamental difference between say that content that we just heard, and then the stuff that kids would have normally watched on Netflix versus YouTube. - Sure, so I guess it's funny to say historically with Netflix, but I guess in the before time, I do believe parents could count on a higher production value, kind of narrative quality, less jump cuts, though Netflix is a platform that's also optimizing for time and kind of time spent there. They want to keep people watching. It's perhaps not as intentionally addictive as YouTube creators who over time have been chasing an algorithm that they've never quite known, but content over time, the popularity of content has been changing, as Google has tweaked and changed that algorithm. There was a moment when everything was 12 minutes. The rise of the thumbnail, those kind of hooks, those elements, it's just different, and that tends to be self-produced though it can have some professional production elements versus something that either Netflix has directly invested in or a production house has invested in. - Yeah, there's a sort of a bar. - A bar? - Yeah, exactly. - There used to be a bar. When this stuff started popping up more and more, on my thread's feed was just parents going, what is happening with Netflix? I don't want this, how do I turn it off? People just genuinely freaking out. Katherine, how are you feeling about creators like Salish popping up on your Netflix feed? - I feel mixed, I think there is something to be said for what kinds of children's programming places like Netflix have invested in the past. And so for example, somebody like Ms. Rachel, who I think for the most part is quite high quality, pre-school entertainment, was never able to get a show made through a traditional platform because there was such a resistance to making any kind of shows for babies and young toddlers. And so when you now watch Ms. Rachel on Netflix, what you're watching is repackaged YouTube material and that would not be accessible to families without going on YouTube and then seeing all of the other things and opening yourself up to that scroll. And now you can get it through Netflix, which I think is a better alternative for a lot of families. On the other hand, you do get stuff like Salish, which I personally find grating and not pleasant. I am still more comfortable with my kids encountering something like Salish in a Netflix context than I am on YouTube because ultimately the thing that I am most resistant to is not the actual video itself when we're talking about these kind of family vloggers, although they are not my preference. My concern is the way that it chops up your entire experience into these tiny couple minute long segments and then you expect that to keep going infinitely. And even by picking curating some YouTube things and then putting on Netflix, you are disrupting that kind of constant endless scroll experience that it was what YouTube is training kids to have in their platform. Yeah, can I just ask you quickly, Catherine? You said people have been resistant to make content for preschoolers and toddlers. Is that because the screen time recommendation is that they don't watch anything? Yes, for quite a long time, the American Academy of Pediatrics where a lot of, you know, there has been such an emphasis on making sure that screen time does not damage kids. And so you go with the pediatricians recommendation, which is no screen time. And so then it was like, hey, I'm at Disney or I'm at Nickelodeon. I'd like to make a show for babies. And there's just this outroer of like, babies should never be watching TV. And this was so far away from many parents, most parents lived experiences that it was really difficult to get funding for those kinds of programs whereas Miss Rachel can go on YouTube and upload whatever she wants and become Miss Rachel. Right, and God bless Miss Rachel. 'Cause my daughter absolutely adores her. Vast, why do you think Netflix is choosing to open the floodgates to YouTube content? A couple of reasons. I mean, I think they've gotten a little bit lazy and it's also cheap. So last recession, we saw the growth, explosive growth of reality TV show. Also not gonna knock it. You know, it's a genre of it. It's become a genre of its own, but that was because of a writer's strike and because of reduced budgets and production costs. So right now YouTube is Netflix number one competitor on the Nielsen ratings and in the data. That's where people are consuming television even on the app. And the benefit of these creators and the platform is fighting over some creators the way Hollywood studios used to fight over stars is that they're try tested and true and they come with an audience. So when Netflix sees audience and subscribers declining and they're able to import these shows, import these creators, they're bringing in an audience and don't forget, I mean, most of what we consume and see is largely influenced by the US and the US does not have a comprehensive childcare program and the US does not have comprehensive family leave and that means there's a lot more kids in a home setting for a long time. Well, parents are working or looking for space and I do think that introduces the television. - Yeah. I mean, Catherine, I don't want to knock it. Mark Rober has made my kids so interested in engineering and science and some of this stuff is really great and is it possible that unboxing videos and you know kids playing with toys is just like what the kids are into these days? Yes I think it is absolutely possible that that's what the kids are into these days but I do think there's a bit of a circular reasoning as to why the kids are in these kinds of things that I'm always my instinct is to push back against it because I do think that when the emphasis for parents is that you should show your kids screens less then there is a logic that makes total sense where you say okay I'm not going to let them sit and watch half an hour of television I'm going to hand them my phone and they're going to watch YouTube for four minutes and that's better because it's less and then the kid is like oh you know what's so great is a four minute YouTube video that gives me this kind of gratification immediately and I'd like to watch another four minute and then I'd like to watch another four minute and instead if you had just put them down in front of a full length episode of television and yes forced their brains to experience the slight amount more cognitive stretch that requires that you aren't required for a longer story this could be just as popular a space but we have instead kind of trained a lot of kids I think to to like this more bite-sized thing so yeah kids love unboxing videos I think they would love TV too if they were given the chance to sit and watch for more than four minutes at a time yeah and by the way good luck getting that phone out of that kid's hand after four minutes like I've never seen that in real life so fast what sort of tools would you like to see Netflix giving parents I mean I think every parent wants to see the return of a VCR like situation we've given up a lot of control we have this sort of curatorial power where we're all gatekeepers to an on-demand platform where previously if you or I missed a show growing up we had to go to the playground and ask what happened in that episode you know mom or dad or you know was not the gatekeeper to kind of allowing us to access that so when it comes to something like quote-unquote parental controls I think what is it we want to be able to do we want to short list the content that our children can see and we want to set a time limit as if my son has a concept of time is three and a half but I talked to him like he does it's very indulgent and and I want to be able to be like after this amount of time it's off don't turn it on until tomorrow like that's what I think in terms of power and reclaiming our own power over these platforms we should be pushing for instead of just accepting that you know the next show starting in 10 seconds and there's nothing we can do about it yeah and Catherine I I do have to admit you know you can go into the Netflix app and block certain content so does that kind of just solve the problem but I'm it it's kind of hard to find how to block those shows it is 100% like most of the parental control systems in an iPhone or an Amazon platform the Netflix kids settings now do in allow you to open up like a profile and you got to sort of do a drop-down menu you can drop title you can block titles individually that is unless you have one that you were like really I just can't stand and I never want to see again that is a really challenging long-term situation they add so much content so regularly that I cannot imagine much less my ability to know type based on title alone whether it was a YouTube native show or wasn't exactly and so that that feels a little bit like a band-aid rather than a more holistic solution mm-hmm yes very much I mean this is like an ongoing problem that we should be able to fix in our brief time now Catherine before we go I just want to mention of course the Emmys were last night history was made by Jean Smart and Matthew Reese any reaction to the show very quickly yes it was I think there were some really exciting winners I for one and thrilled by the widow's bass sweep I delighted by IP free television that has arrived a small show that has really made its mark thrilling I think the telecast itself was pretty miserable and did not enjoy a lot of the comedic sort of sensibility that was coming in I think Mariska had a great energy and was failed by her writers so the list reading down this morning feels great the experience last night not so much yeah poor Emmys like they're just doing their best to figure it out and every year it's like oh a hit and a miss well we have to leave it there but thank you both so much for speaking to me about this today thanks for having Catherine Van Ayrindonck is a critic at Vulture and the host of the TV is good podcast she was in New Jersey and Bass Bednar is the managing director of the Canadian Shield Institute she's also the co-author of the big fix how companies capture markets and harm Canadians she was here in our Toronto studio hey it's Danielle and Cali your host of in three Canada's number one entertainment news podcast I've spent more time with Taylor Swift than most other people we're media pros we hosted the Verity screening festies how we has become the hottest factory boy said no one but you ever ever and insiders who have seen it all IRL Oscars golden globes you name it we have been there with access to the biggest talent welcome to in three Patrick J Adam the fun starts in three you know who's not gonna survive this dad talk oh new episodes Mondays and Thursdays I'm Emil Niazi sitting in for Elimine Abdel Mahmoud this is commotion now it wasn't too long ago that we were talking on this show about how Justin Trudeau was making sure we knew he was having a hot girl summer hanging out with his girlfriend Katie Perry in Santropay and at Coachella and how well this just isn't the usual rebrand for world leaders after leaving office well now Trudeau has announced he's starting a media production company and that feels a little bit more familiar think of the Obamas and their production company higher ground to talk about Trudeau's latest venture we have Nicholas Kwa welcome to the show Nicholas hello okay so during tipflas friday Justin Trudeau drops this news that he's starting a media company along with his former chief of staff Katie Telford it'll focus on producing Canadian content and the company is called hope and hard work so Nicholas what was your initial reaction on hearing this news well it was like a succession of thoughts it was first sure and then good for him and then this kind of makes sense just given like how much of a back half of a life he has to fill his you know slow pretty young it's like he's got to do something with his life and this seems to be what he's choosing to do and when do you think of that name hope and hard work so initially I did not remember the context for it that it was the slogan that he used for the liberal party for quite a bit but when I heard the name I was like ah I come on that's kind of that's that's kind of lame I'm sorry but um but it does signal his ambition there's the signal his sensibility and that's something that's a good branding move for him in some senses uh but you know a good good for him very on the nose I guess the title of the company absolutely absolutely uh so Trudeau is announced a lineup of film and TV projects uh that includes adaptations of popular Canadian books including closer by sea by parry chafe uh which is a novel set in a small Newfoundland fishing town going through hard economic times and there are original series like look a lege a drama set at a Montreal private school and power moves a wrongquam set in the world of politics as well as back channels a political drama about a new chief of staff as they learn the ropes I guess that's where Katie Telford comes in so Nicholas based on what we know so far what's your impressions of of his ambitions as a producer and kind of what he wants to focus on so immediately the fact that he has a slate of five projects that he's trying to develop and that they're very specific tangible things that people can reference and produces and distributors can buy he's already starting um a little bit ahead from where higher ground and archival productions work like he has a set of things that he can break into the marketplace and try to develop uh what's interesting is that three out of two are like Canadian content and we're in a really interesting time for that and that he's interesting and well placed for for for that kind of thing and you know it's you can see a little bit of genre in each of these pieces and so that already I feel like there's some there's some machinations here it is actually pretty interesting especially compared to when higher ground sounded at also pretty amorphous we don't quite know what we're going to do what we're going to do the table and again this is a very interesting moment for Canadian developed content to be able to sort of export Canadian self power outside like you know we're just living we are living through through still to the summer of heated rivalry uh shoresy as a sort of Canadian show that's you know really it has sold out stadiums when you do live things in the United States uh which just went through the summer of Nevada the band the show having a big moment it met Johnson crossing over and advocating for Canadian film and things like that so there is this hunger like north of north is also interesting like this is a war seat down south there is there there is a pocket for Canadian content to really thrive and he could actually be one position for that. Now, you mentioned a few ways in which this production company differs from the Obama's and Harry and Meghan and Arctuel productions. What else do you think is different about his approach to this media company as compared to some other higher profile figures? Well, structurally, he's not starting out, I mean, he and Kate Telford, they're not starting out with a big partnership. They're not starting out with a big exclusive contract, a relationship from, say, Netflix or Spotify, where they would have to sort of receive and work with executives around a decision-making process, and that has his pros and his cons. Cons being you just don't have a ton of money up friends to get these things made, it's really expensive to make television shows, it's really expensive to make podcasts these days even, and you know, our higher ground at Arctuel, they both started out with big lucrative Netflix and Spotify deals, but deals look came during a time where proflicate spending was just happening. It's like every media company, we have noodles and noodles of cheap money, and this is, you know, prior to the rise of interest rates and the contraction of the industry, Apple COVID, and so whatever you're forced to do, it's necessarily going to be leaner and it's necessarily going to be more survival the fittest. So, you know, that's kind of how we learn whether Trudeau and Gelford has Eddie Juice, and so, you know, I, from that perspective, I think it's, I think it's actually pretty good. It's actually pretty interesting, but again, we're at a very beginning of this, it depends on what his tastes are and what the product market fit is for all of these projects, they're going to take out the market. Yeah, and what do you think about the fact that, you know, as compared to Harry and Megan and the Obama's, he's not putting himself on screen, he's not, you know, positioning himself to be talent as well as a producer, you know, what do you think of that sort of contrast as well? It's a little mixed because, you know, if, if they did go into a big relationship, say with an audible and that's like a serious exam, the thing that those executives over there wouldn't want is Trudeau's face and star power, and like the things that he can bring that nobody else can, and he is a public figure, he's a global public figure. But he, at this point of time, he was a little kind of a mixed global public figure, right? Yeah. Before he announced his resignation, his approval rating was like in the 20s, pretty low, and then after he announced his resignation, his approval went up, so we actually don't know where he is in the cultural consciousness right now, but I get the sense talking to the other Canadians that like, Trudeau is just kind of like, please stay off the screen for a little bit, please stay on the side a little bit, and this sort of hot girl summer he's been having, I will say has not been particularly endearing, it's been funny, it's been amusing, but it's, it's, it's kind of, it sort of brings a lot of baggage to him if he were to like be to face for a project that brings the market. And again, you could spin that into a good project, you could submit into a pretty effective reality television show if he so wanted to, but I get the feeling that that is not the energy that he's going for right now. No, I would absolutely watch a reality show about Justin Trudeau and Katie Perry just like on a yacht, right? One minute percent. Well, curious what you think about the timing of this as well, obviously there is a lot of tension between Canada and the US right now. So how do you think about where this, this announcement lands in that context? Yeah, again, it's, it's pretty well time because again, a good chunk of the slate is Canadian folk, is Canadian like material and content. And it, it's actually, it's really important for Canada to sort of like maybe wean its export dependency to Hollywood. Last 90 Emmys, so many of the stars and icons that were being honored and fed it are Canadian. And there is this sort of pipeline that happens, right, it's brain drain and when the Canadian gets big here, they go down to Hollywood. And so the fact that there's this sort of like project that is larger movement to, you know, increase the surface area of Canadian content should be the sort of tip of the spear for this, for what should be a larger movement of, you know, creating a Canadian cultural economy that stays in Canada and becomes an exporter, like it keeps the value in while exporting the sort of self-power out. So it could be a piece of that and it's, it's pretty well time for that. Now, what, what do you think is ultimately at stake here for him, you know, he's obviously undergoing a little bit of a rebrand post-political life. So what does the success of hope and hard work mean for Justin Trudeau? You know, if, if it is successful, the way to I see it, the most successful version of this is if the projects that he, that it gets made gets more popular than Trudeau's name or the name, hope and hard work. That is probably the coolest, most long-term, most sustainable rebuild of whatever his brand is. If it somehow reverts, it becomes about him again, then that would be an object failure. I think. Well, that's very interesting, Nicholas. Really appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation with us. All right. Thanks so much for having me. Nicholas Quas is a culture critic at Vulture, he's based in Vancouver. And that's it for the show today. I'm Emil Niazi sitting in for Elimine Abdel Mahmoud. This is commotion. Thanks for listening. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca/podcasts.