Why Ignoring Brand Strategy Hurts Product Growth | Brand & Product with Lee Eisenbarth (Ep. 1)

When teams treat brand as a nice to have, they miss the bigger point. Brand is not decoration, it's direction. It's how your product actually means something and creates emotional stickiness, which is the whole purpose of these B2B business. - Hey everyone, this is Bill Kenney, CEO and co-founder of Focus Lab, a global B2B brand agency. You know when you are ready for a new software tool and you do your research and maybe you start getting some marketing materials around a certain software product or you get a product referred to you from a friend, you go to the website, you sign up for a free trial and you start using the product and it doesn't feel like what you signed up for. There's a gap there, there's a brand gap there. It either looks different, it functions different. It just feels like not what you interfaced with originally. When you made the decision, that's exactly what we're gonna talk about in these next three episodes. This topic of brand and product, why is it that they're often built in silos? I sit down with Lee Eisenbarth, who has a rich history from design to design leadership to leading product within organizations to now running his own agency, helping startups with very similar problems. They're building a product, but what's the brand behind it? With my brand background and his experience, we really dive in to this important topic of brand and product being siloed when it needs to be one, needs to be a single unit, that's where the magic is. So episode one is gonna be all about why we believe this is happening. Episode two is going to be about actionable points that we would share with any startup founder about how to build in tandem. And then third episode, we're gonna get into where we think the industry is going in both branded product, as concerned with say AI and these types of things. A lot of valuable information. I hope you enjoy. - Mr. Lee, dude, excited to have you on the show. Props to Shannon on our team for connecting us and saying, I think that you all should talk about a subject. So here we are about to talk about that subject. But before we do that, should you mind introducing yourself to the viewers and listeners? What the hell are you doing? What's your background? - Yeah, I'd be happy to. Also first, thank you, Bill. Thank you, Shannon for having me on. For everyone who doesn't know me, I'm Lee Eisenbarth. I've spent the last 15-ish year kind of bouncing between both sketchbooks and spreadsheets. My brain pushes pixels and it also helps steer strategy. So I've been the first designer at startup. I've been VP of design at a design firm. I've led product and everything from designing brands and products for seed stage teams that have no money, all the way to helping the Marines build software that helps make them mission ready. - Hell yeah. - So yeah, and like some of that I can talk about. And then other parts, it's really fun because they just get to say it's classified. I can't talk about it. But yeah, and then personally, I just had a kid. So I got a five-month-year-old who may or may not make a cameo in this depending on how he's feeling today. He may have some thoughts to share on his own. But really like all of these experiences have snowballed into my current role leading the design practice at MaxQ, which I know we're gonna hit that more in a second. - Yeah, I was doing a little bit of digging this morning and I was like, wow, I saw that progression. LinkedIn would be my area of learning that background. I like designer to design leader, to product, to product leader, to now running his own agency. I'm like, okay, I can actually see now why Shannon was like, y'all should talk. 'Cause you're gonna have such a great, deep rich perspective on this topic, which is marrying brand and product together. How those two things need to be one, but they're often not seen as one. And most often, I think, product is first out of the gate, building the thing, then mention people go like, oh, snap, we need a brand behind this. But then they don't always pull those two things together. So let's start with, you work with a lot of startups, but you even talked all the way up to military level. What do you think the misconceptions are that lead people to not understand that brand is important that early, right? It's just all about the product. And brand's not even thought about yet. - I ask myself that every morning. (laughing) Because it makes so much sense in my brain, but it doesn't make sense in others. But you're absolutely right. So many brands treat their identity system as a garnish, rather than kind of the glue that holds everything together. I think too, like without it, your product, it may work just fine, but it will feel forgettable, generic, and potentially even soulless. And so I feel like that's the real risk that people don't just need your product to function. They need it to resonate. And the way to do that is a really strong brand. - I think the garnish point is fantastic. That's something I think everybody can understand very easily. So when you say garnish, I'm guessing you're kind of painting this picture of people see brand in identity as very much a visual exercise. We need a logo. We need these types of things. But that's all it is. It's then just stuck in that corner of their business. - And the visual part, the visual system is certainly part of it, right? - Yeah. - However, it also goes to how your people communicate. Like Chewy, for instance. Thankfully, I've never had to experience this myself, but have had friends and family kind of receive this type of treatment. But when one of their pets unfortunately passes away, Chewy has sent a card. They've sent flowers. Like all of these things are brand and how you're perceived in the market. I think you and I both know like your brand is what people say behind your back. - Yup, yup. - When you have a really strong product and a really strong brand, like good things will happen. It's those details that really matter, not just in the visuals, but in the strategy and the communication and how you speak about your business. - And do you find most often the people you're working with, they've not made those connections yet where brand is really kind of like a marketing asset. And let's just say the product team is building product. These two things are separated by a wall. - Absolutely. So given MaxQ, I didn't explain the name of it, but it's a space reference. But I kind of view it as like building a spaceship and then just saving the oxygen system for later. And so like the engineers are so concerned. They just need this thing to fly. But there needs to be astronauts on it who meet oxygen. And so like I feel when teams really treat brand as like a nice to have or just a visual system, like a color palette, a font system, a clever campaign, whatever, they miss the bigger point. Like brand is not decoration, it's direction. And I think to like, it's how your product actually means something and creates that emotional stickiness, which is the whole purpose of these B2B businesses. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so it has to be more than just a feature or a product. I can understand though, I can empathize with a startup founder that might even be technically minded more of an engineer wiring, where their thought is linear to product, right? Well, like, yeah, we can say all we want over here on the fuzzy, lovey-dovey brand stuff, but the product has to work, right? You know, we have to have something that people need in the market. It's like, yes, that is true. That is also true. Both worlds can be true. It's not just one or the other. - I think too, like when you're thinking about like those very early stage teams, like all those founders are thinking about our speed and survival. And brand gets postponed, because it's seen as fluff or a nice touch for later when there's more time or budget or breathing room. But like the irony is that's when you need a brand, let alone a solid brand the most, when you're about to go raise or unleashing a new product to the world, you only have one chance to go to market. And there's only so much facelift you can give, and you don't start with it in the first place. - Yes, you know, I think we see people on both sides of the spectrum. I assume you do too. Like we're speaking with somebody just yesterday. They have zero products yet, but they have the vision. And they want to start thinking about brand to help bring the vision, the story, and then the finance fundraise to life and then build the thing. - I think too, like with all of this AI stuff happening. And I know as part of this series, we're going to dig into that eventually. But there are going to be so many products that are stitched together with scotch tape that come to market. And I bet the vast majority of them won't have a solid brand. And so like-- - Very good point. - I think this is the time, this is the year for brand to like really make a stand. And the products that do come to market, even if it's in a matter of weeks, the ones that will last are the ones that have that really strong brand behind it. And so like I know there's a lot of talk of designers losing their jobs, engineers losing their jobs. Like I've used a bunch of these tools and I know they're going to get so much better. But what they can't do is generate something your team can generate. And I think-- - I appreciate that. - That human touch needs to be there, it must be there. - Yeah, I think that without going too far into that too, because I know we'll get there, a brand that I think about that is really good at delivering on experience, but is a technical engineering tool. Maybe this is a stretch, but I think about the language learning apps in Duolingo. Like the technical aspect behind what they've built, I'm assuming this is really dumbing it down, broadly speaking, not terribly hard. Right, remember there's like Rosetta Stone back in the day and you got like DVDs and CDs, right? Like people have been entering into that space for a long time, but Duolingo has done it in a way where it's not just about learning the language, they've created kind of a branded experience around the whole entire thing. And that has become what I would consider, maybe like a magnifier, like an amplifier for what might be one of hundreds of language learning apps if I had to guess. There's probably like a top five of the ones we know, but there's probably a million into your point with AI tools. How easy is it gonna be to build so much crap without that brand, your point's exactly, like a Duolingo, it is just that. It's just kind of like, it's just a thing. - Also like with Duolingo, generally I am anti-mascat. Like it is a case like case pieces, but what they did with their most recent marketing campaign of the Duolingo owl, did you see this getting killed by a Cybertron? - Oh, yes. - They killed off your Mac. And so like, that's another just like unique brand moment that wouldn't have happened if they didn't invest in brand in the first place. - Yeah, that's right. - Like obviously, like the plan was never to kill off the sad owl. - Also, I think he's still alive. - Yes, yes. - I check in with my mom every now and then to make sure he's still kicking. But like, that's a brand moment too. And people miss out on it when they neglect it. - Yeah, yeah. Now let's, this is gonna bridge us well, I believe, into what are our other branded moments then that we can talk about? I think Duolingo is a great example, which I had not planned to bring up. It was top of mind. Kudos to them for their power of brand. - I start to think about, well, you even kind of labeled it, and you've written on this before, so definitely we'll have links in the show notes for people to find those articles. But filling like the emotional gap, these kind of, let's call them branded interactions, not just Duol the owl coming up. And, you know, a lot of people give the app heat because it's like, it's thrown shade at you, it's making you feel bad because you're missing your streak. But how little, maybe interactions when you complete something, these little animated moments, these little sprinkles of the visual identity, but also just kind of like joy, as we might say. How important do you think that emotional gap is? And how often do you think clients recognize the value of that emotional gap? - Yeah, good question. I think there's a significant chasm. Because you have these marketing leaders who are trying to champion, we need a new website, and sometimes brand is part of that, at least the good CMOs know that. And then you have the CFO who don't understand emotions, probably. I'm just kidding, that's terrible. I think there's a real dissonance between the two. And so like the way I like to frame it to my clients, like when you think of like customers' expectations, right? And a product that might not deliver. So maybe they have beautiful marketing. Like that's just marketing. And it doesn't matter if that impression is the lightful, premium, playful, or even trustworthy. The second they log into that product, it has to back it up. And so like when you're asking about like apps that do it well, I'm not suggesting Chase is the most beautifully designed app. I think all apps have room for improvement. That goes for things that I've designed as well. But when you think of something like a banking app, you need it to feel trustworthy. And you personally need to feel safe if you're going in there to transfer money or accept money. And I feel like, yes, the visual identity and that whole system plays a part in that trust with color psychology and blue feeling trustworthy and all those things. But the product itself, if you enter in your credentials and then just are hit with a 60-second loader, that doesn't give me the warm-and-buzzies. Yeah, where's my money going? Did it go to the wrong spot? Exactly. And so it doesn't matter how slick the website is. That brand, that kind of layer is the promise. And then the product is actually the proof. Yeah, well said. If the proof disappoints, trust just doesn't erode, like it collapses completely. It's pretty hard to get that back, right? What do they say? It takes years to build up the trust, but like a day to lose it, basically. Yeah, it's unreal. Like you never get a second chance at a first emotional impression. And so this is where I go back to Chiwi. Sure, they sell pet food, but them sending sympathy cars when your pet passes away. That's not a feature. It's emotional architecture. Yes. And a brand being part of every touchpoint. And-- Yeah, I think-- I like that you touched on Chase and this idea of trust and the interaction of it. I can't help but think because I also spend a decent amount of time in these crypto worlds, whether it's a brand or an actual tool like a ledger. You want to talk about clicking a button and not knowing where your stuff is going. So that's the biggest hurdle of crypto hitting a mainstream customer right now. They're just not going to go through the rigmarole of what feels like a sketchy little USB card, and you punch in a code, and you're just waiting for it to arrive on the other side. And there's nobody in between, right? That is also-- that's the value prop of crypto. But man, it is quite scary. It does not make you feel comfortable. So yes, somebody like Chase, their job is to be the antithesis of that, right? And through the product experience. Let's not hit them with that loader. God, if there is a delay, what are we going to put in front of them to make it feel like they didn't wait that long? There's going to be so much psychological brand/product-- Yes. --items that need to be thought through there. That's the pairing of brand and product. 100%. These are not different departments. Brand and product are of that same experience. And all of what you just talked about with crypto, and I'm sure the folks at Coinbase are thinking about this, it needs to be their marketing team. It needs to be their product team. It needs to be their brand team, because all of these things, down to the empty state graphic, while your stuff is loading, you want to know that it's thinking. And you're almost getting to those moments of delight, which is unique for every product, but happy to talk through some different areas. Yeah, well said. Maybe we need to give-- deliver some messaging that even delivers a little bit of humor right here in this part of the product, because we know they might have a little bit of fear in this waiting period. Yeah, tricky balance, right? But it all comes through, what is the brand? Maybe if the brand is more like a Duolingo, it embraces this idea of humor and joy and personality. It really pushes it forward. Where some of these, let's call it banks and crypto and maybe more technical products, they could overindex really technical, really fast, full dark mode, everything's pretty serious, high tech. And it's like, oh, we might have to soften that a little bit if you want to get to general mainstream. But let's not go on the crypto rant here. We work in B2B branding specifically. So the kitsch there is like, oh, B2B branding, that means it's technical and uninteresting and maybe potentially boring. Our clients don't want it to be that. Generally, that's why they're coming to us. But I think people's perception of B2B is that it's less emotional. And I think people like you and I would argue then, therefore it should be even more emotional than if that is true. B2B buyers are still people. So do you run into the same kind of misconceptions in the B2B space? Do you think that product is also challenged by that in the B2B space? - Absolutely. I think emotion gets overlooked so frequently. And I think it's because in this like LinkedIn era, we've gotten tricked into thinking professional meant emotionless. I think especially in B2B, there's this assumption that like software needs to be fast, efficient and clear, but not emotionally intelligent. So you're talking about that as those moments of levity in a really like intense moment. Like there needs to be more of that. I feel like the people using your product, they wanna feel something, whether it's confidence, delight, clarity, relief or even a little fun. I think delight is 1,000% a retention strategy. And I think those that invest in a product having an emotion, like it can really be used as a growth lever. And so I feel like when you have functionality that's just there and looks like every other app, it's forgettable. Brand brings life to all of that. - Yes, yes, yes, yes. - You guys use Asana. - We do use Asana. Yes, sir. - Okay. It's super silly too. You know the unicorn that just jumps across the screen after you complete a random tag? - Or is it an R wall too? Is it their optionality in there? - Yes, yes, yes. - Yeah. - So like those are the types of things that make people smile. And like obviously we're two brand nerds. So we're gonna talk about it. - Yeah. - But it only takes one really small magical moment to make that impression. - Yes. - And that was brand showing up inside of the product. - Yeah. - And so like it doesn't matter if you have the cleanest UX in the world. If it makes me feel nothing, I'm probably not coming back. - Yeah, yep. 'Cause people are driven by emotion at the end of the day, right? Whether we all wanna believe it or not. No, it's a tool. They're just trying to serve a function again. Both worlds are true. Yes, Asana is a tool. And I do need it to serve just some functionality that I need, but I'm not mad when it delights me either. And if anything, it makes it more memorable when you talk about it. - Yeah. - Therefore they're getting free marketing out of it. Right? Like these things work. It has to be more than just the radio buttons you click in the form fields you put your information into when you walk away from a product. It has to be more than that. - Yep, absolutely. - I think we covered this, but I'm gonna ask it anyways. So then, if these are true and they seem obvious to us, is it just us? Like what, why the founders slash startups? Why do they wait? Why don't they do it from the start? - The comment section is gonna come after me for continuing to bring up the CFO. But if you look in the close loss column and reasons why, like the majority of the time, it's because brand is under the umbrella of expensive and intangible to those decision makers. Your founders are told to build, to ship, to iterate brand. It's kind of like a later phase luxury. - What the hell is it anyways? - Until it's not. - Yes. - Yeah, exactly. Until it's not like. - Yeah. - Until you're six months in, struggling to explain what you do or rebranding for the second or third time or the sixth time, like HBO Max. - Yes. - Because the first version didn't stick. - Yeah. - I think brand that is real and it is significantly harder to pay off than technical debt. - Say more. - So one of our clients puts their SVP of marketing in every single designer view. This isn't as like a formality. Like they're a true partner in there. And it's because this particular individual knows this isn't just design, it's brand in motion and how decisions compound and build equity over time. And so I think the brand debt of these delightful moments that the unicorn's not being talked about because it's silly or a waste of engineering time, like those types of things are really hard to catch up on because there's always gonna be the next feature you need to build. - Sure. - Like the Gira backlog is not getting any smaller. - Yeah. - And so that's what I meant by brand debt kind of being real is technical debt gets so much attention in board meetings and engineering meetings. I would argue that brand debt should be treated the same. - Yeah, 'cause in saying that, I think about an analogy I often kind of draw from 'cause I think the world understands it very clearly. Everybody has this idea of like the restaurant that serves good food, the product. And then the facade out front that either makes you want to walk into it or not. Let's call that the identity, right? So the debt could be really good food coming out of that restaurant, but every time you drive by that strip mall and you see the outside of that restaurant, you're like, I would never go in there. And the more it looks like that is burnt into your brain, you'd never go in there, you'd never go in there. So now they have to build even harder to change the perception. There's the debt you're digging back out of. And eventually you'll get them in there like, oh my God, this food is amazing. I'm so bummed I didn't come here for the last four years. So, or somebody tells them you get a word of mouth referral, okay, you can get around the immediate barrier, but there is debt there. Like now I have, there's mental friction of, oh, if you see these like new ownership or new business, maybe it's same business, new name, new identity, who knows, but maybe there's another example of some debt and how it shows up in the real world, not just like SaaS tooling. - Yeah, to use the restaurant analogy in a sketchy strip mall, one, that's where some of the best places are. However, if you go in and you touch one of the menus and it's hella sticky, I'm not coming back, that's disgusting. But that is brand debt. And the owner is just worried about what they need to order for the next day and who cares about the design of the menu. - Yeah, 'cause it's all about the food, right? We have the best chef. Like we don't care about those things. They're auxiliary, people just want the best food. They just want the best product. It's like, no, they kind of want it all to work together or something doesn't feel right. Or you walk into the epically designed manicured place and the food is crap, right? It's the inverse problem. - Yeah, sticky menus and lighting. Those are two pieces of brand debt for non-B2B companies. Like take care of that, you need that in that. You need to. - Yeah, faded pictures of old food on your outside, your window. - Yeah. - That's not the way to sell the product. - Yeah, totally agree. - All right, Lee, last question. - Yep. - And this will be a good lead in for the next episode. Is there inappropriate right time then, given everything we've said, to start thinking about brand when you're building your product? How can somebody follow and trust what we're saying and actually pull this off side by side? - Yeah, I feel like the traditional CEO responses yesterday. But no, I think it really comes down to, when you treat brand as a surface level layer, you lose clarity, cohesion, trust, all the things we've been talking about. But we need to think about brand as less of a bolt-on strategy and more of a build-in. And so I believe just like revenue is everyone's job. Brand is also everyone's job because it's how you're talking about the business out in the wild. It's consistent email signatures. Like all of those different touch points matter. And therefore like you need to start talking about it as soon as humanly possible. But yeah, the best are built in tandem. And I know we're gonna get into that in the next episode. - Yeah, so I'm excited for you to share very specifically from your experience and like how can a startup build in tandem? How can it not be a world where it's one or the other? How can it not be a budget challenge and a timeline challenge and a priorities challenge? How can a startup founder build in a way that they're asking who are we and what are we serving? Both at the same time and ping-ponging between those two worlds. They do not have to be two separate worlds. So we'll get into that in the next episode, building both brand and product in tandem. Until then, thank you, sir. I can't wait for some of these nuggets of wisdom to hit the streets and I'll see you in the next episode. - Yeah, thank you, Bill. See ya. - Ciao.