Why I’m speaking out against radical Islam | Fiyaz Mughal

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It can't be easy to be part of the Muslim community and to say some critical things about the Muslim community. The form of Islam out there needs to change. This has been a very difficult journey, right? It's made me question my own sense of identity, it's made me question my own sense of religiosity, my own sense of sanity sometimes because I felt threatened, really threatened. Let me tell you, some of the people who are railing against Islamophobia today, they're in the House of Lords, own multiple houses, made millions out of our country, and then they excrement on our society. I'm sickened by this. How much difficulty has the term Islamophobia caused? The consequence of Islamophobia has not only been to stop debate, new critique Islam, you have to watch your back. Hi, it's Brendan O'Neal here. Before we meet today's guest, I just wanted to let you know that if you're a spike supporter or a member of Spice YouTube channel, you can now watch episodes of this show early. You can watch them up to a week before they're made public. For this perk and many others, sign up now to become the spike supporter or a YouTube member and get early access to the Brendan O'Neal show. Find out how in the notes below. Hello, welcome back to the Brendan O'Neal show with me, Brendan O'Neal, and my special guest this week, Fias Mugal. Fias, welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Brendan. It's great to have you on. I was just saying to you before we started recording, I've been following your work closely for some time. You very generously spoke at the brilliant spike summit earlier this year, which was a runaway success. I think our panel, which was about Islam and Islamism and all those juicy topics, I think that was probably the most fiery. I would say that given I was on that panel, but it was an incredibly interesting discussion. Listeners will be familiar with you as someone who's been working in the area of counter-extremism, religious relations and so on for a very long time and you are part of Faith Matters, which is an organisation designed to counter extremism, to think about Muslims' place in Britain, what that means and all these other interesting issues. So I've got a lot I want to ask you, but I'm going to start with a broad question if that's okay, which is, you're an expert on social cohesion. You're very interested in social cohesion as a goal that Britain should be moving towards. How do you think social cohesion stands in the UK at the moment? The pessimist in me thinks things are fraying more and more, but maybe you have a different view. First of all, really good question to start with. I actually agree with you that sadly, I say sadly because I think both of us can agree this is not where the direction of travel should be in our country, but things are fraying and there are these big divisions that are opening up in our society, particularly around our social values, the implication of them, i.e., how people live their lives. There is a gap opening up around our visions as communities of where the United Kingdom should be going. I think there are also issues around mixing, i.e. engaging, mixing more in certain parts of our society and in certain towns and cities, and I think there is also a deeper sense of polarisation that is creeping in, yes, there is polarisation taking place globally, but actually the reality is it's also impacting us in the United Kingdom. And so I think with these factors, we are in a place where some communities are just going in absolutely opposite directions. And I think for the future of our society in our country that is concerning, particularly if there are bad faith actors that want to create division or want to add fuel to the fire, then we are opening ourselves up for some real issues including demonstrations, including social unrest potentially, and I think longer term concerns about how we view each other going forward in our country. Really good way to kick off. That's a very good overview I feel of where we're at as a nation. What would you say are the main sources of what I've referred to as the fraying, that sense of kind of division or just everyday tension that seems to exist, I sometimes feel it even when I go out on the streets, I feel that I'm in one moral universe and someone's in another moral universe and I wrote recently about going back to my hometown and not hearing anyone speaking English and just feeling a little bit alienated by that and feeling that I felt like a stranger in my own, the town in which I grew up, and people have these experiences all the time, that sense that social cohesion isn't quite working at the moment. What would you say are the underlying sources for that? What is the cause of it? I think one of the biggest factors for it has been the scale of the demographic change. I think the speed and the scale of the demographic change is visible to people, it's very evident and visible to people. I think the issue around individuals who have come into the country and issues around migration and migration asylum have added to that sense of difference. I think also people are seeing a visible difference in their communities, they are hearing it, they are sensing it, they are culturally recognising it because we have individuals who are coming from different parts of the globe, who are holding different moral and social values, who are holding different dress codes and who are also in many instances speaking different languages, so it is very visibly and audibly different and it's being noticed every day by individuals and I think that is a major factor that is, I think, leading to a sense of division in our country. There are other factors, I mean we know that kind of opening up people to debate through social media can enhance difference, it can bring people together but it can also enhance difference. I also think that another factor that has been a big one I think is the economic change of our country. People are feeling the pocket has been hit, they are finding life much more difficult and when you have this sense that actually they can visibly sense and hear difference, they feel apprehensive about the future and I think that's where people kind of sit at the moment in time but the scale in change in our country is so significant that I think it's left some head spinning. As you said it's left some head spinning thinking hold on in 30, 20 to 30 years, where has the United Kingdom gone in terms of its change, that's where a lot of people are at the moment. Hello, I'm Fraser Myers, producer of the Brendan O'Neil show, now we all have ideas that sound great in theory but turning an idea into something real is another matter entirely. 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And I think this is one of the valuable things about the work you do is that what you've just said there is sometimes quite difficult for someone like me to say because I will be accused of being a racist which I am not, I hope people know that. And other commentators are accused likewise of holding racist views, especially even the use of the word demographic can sometimes get one in hot water because it raises all those questions that you've just touched on very well there. In terms of the speed of the demographic change many listeners will be nodding their heads vigorously listening to you say that. Is that a fatalistic thing because it seems to me that it's almost like a root and branch change so it's not just like bringing in the I ideas of multiculturalism, which can have divisive consequences, because ideas can be undone, they can be put away. It's not like, you know, it's not even like the growth of Islamism, which I want to come on to soon, because that's something that could be combated or put back in its box or whatever. But when it's demographic change, when entire towns change in the space of 20 or 30 years and become an entirely different constituency, often with different cultural beliefs to those of the, you know, traditional British beliefs, is that a fate to comply? I mean, what can be done in those kinds of circumstances to improve social cohesion or reinsert an idea of shared values? Is it just not possible? I think it's again a really good question here. I think it is very possible to do that. But I think it's very, very possible to do that. But I think we're caught in a hiatus that this moment in time, which makes things doubly, it's not triply difficult. First of all, there have been successive failures in both conservative and clearly in labor policies around integration and social cohesion. We never really had an integration policy with the conservative and liberal democratic governments. And then the conservative governments, there wasn't really a social cohesion policy. There was a lot of talk about values, but there was no real implementation and drive through local authorities to try to manifest that into everyday activities that could be conducted through local authority officers or through local projects that were being funded by councils to kind of get people to mix, to start to open their mindsets, to start to expose themselves to different views, to start to even allow for challenge, gentle challenge, but also more of a challenge of ideas and values to take place. So I think first of all, successive governments have simply been so inactive. We now have a Labour government, which is doing exactly what I saw the Brown government doing, which is throw money into social cohesion. And their view of social cohesion is, let's get together and talk about the kumbaya of how we all get on together and look at my faith, look at yours nonsense, absolutely dire nonsense that has not worked, and which we have lost hundreds of millions of pounds on in terms of actual funding. That doesn't work anymore. I questioned whether it worked initially because we've seen communities unravel so quickly. So even question whether that work had any significant long term value. So first thing is governments have failed to look at this issue and robustly implement it at a local, regional and national level, nor have they properly defined and put out overtly as a central strategy of governments. What our nation clearly stands for. I think you and I can kind of understand that there are things like democracy, free speech, women's rights, a whole range of things which our country has significantly led on for the last, you know, frankly 40, 50 years, 100 years. And actually these are values that have marked us out as a country with new human rights centered. And I think more importantly, equality centered approaches. If we look at women's rights, the right for women, the right for LGBT communities to have a space in society to develop just like any one of us. And I think those kind of central values mark us out. But no government has actually forcibly stood for them, enforced them, implemented them, challenged the voices of division, challenged the voices of medieval interpretations of religions, challenged those who believe or say globally. Well, my religion allows for things when it clearly doesn't. And so that's a starting point. I think the second thing that makes it difficult is given what we've had post COVID, we've had such an amount of resource go out to deal with that. We then had a number of issues economically that hit us from the United States, etc. from 2008, 2009. There is no money really to do this kind of challenge work. So we're in a resource, a kind of a resource desert to be able to get this work of challenge done rather than the Kumbaya approach, the work of getting challenged done and explaining and in a way, implementing our values just doesn't have any capacity. And the amount of money labor has set aside is not doing that work. And basically is doing the opposite. It's back to the, you know, look how lovely my religion is. Oh, your religion says the same thing nonsense. And I think, so I think given added what I've said to given the scale of the migration and change that we've seen in our country, it's like, it's like a Ferrari of change versus a snail of trying to get a remedial action. It's just two ends, two completely polar ends that the pace of change is literally, as I said, dramatically changed our country. And the reality is the little bit of money they're going to put in is going to go back to the failed grossly failed approach that successive labor governments love, which is we're all in this together. We're not all in this together. There are some communities who will not or choose not to or simply just can't be bothered to stand up for a values of a country. They're just, it's just not there. So, you know, we're not in this together and there needs to be a directional change, a policy change, a hardening of the defense of our values, a hardening of a sense of holding the secular space, and a hardening of the celebration of what made, made us different as a country, what makes us different as a country, and the celebration of our history, which is actually, there are some difficult times in it, but it also has some incredibly glorious things that can bring us together, celebrate this country, and hold us together in a unique way. I've been thinking very, along very similar lines recently, that we need a bit more firmness in response to this division, rather than as you describe it, the Kumbaya approach. I do think we probably need a bit more clamping down on ideas and ideologies that don't fit well with what's going on, and a bit more muscular assertion of the virtues that actually make Britain, Britain. I did want to ask you in relation to that about Islam, of course, and I've got a few questions for you on this topic. This is an issue you think about a lot, you think very in great depth about Muslim integration, where it's not happening, where it is happening, how it might be improved, and so on. It's obviously an issue that lots of people are thinking about. If you think about some of the big stories, even over the past couple of years, the grooming gang scandal has come back into public view. There's been questions about mass public praying and conservative MP Nick Timothy has got himself in trouble for saying he doesn't like it. Then there's of course the Islamophobia definition. There's lots going on that I think makes some ordinary British people think something like, why don't Muslims just get a grip and integrate and stop being a pain in the neck? That is how people think, I hear people say that. Where do you think that situation lies? That Islam in Britain, what's going on there right now? Well, Islam in Britain at the moment feels to me very fractured. As a Muslim, it feels very fractured. One of the compounding and substantive issues affecting Islam in Britain today is a significant and sincere lack of leadership. There is no theological leadership and there is a huge vacuum that sits there and has sat there for the last 50 to 60 years. There is no structural leadership. It is very in a way organic in organic and very granular in terms of its interpretation. A mosque with an imam down the road could interpret Islam one way. Another imam down the down another road can interpret it another way and you have such severe fragmentation around theological interpretation. This is a global issue. It's not just British as fun. There is no centralisation and structure behind Islam. The old centres of theological knowledge around Al-Azzar and those in Saudi Arabia where Islam started. I just not listened to. They didn't resonate in the UK. They don't even play a role in it and a part in it. But what I have recognised, since the mid-1980s, there has been a deep politicisation of Islam in the United Kingdom. 40 years worth of deeply politicised Islam because global conflicts have effectively been imported into the country. A lot of that activity took place by Islamists, just saying it frankly. A lot of that activity took place through Muslim brotherhood networks. A lot of that activity took place through Muslim brotherhood, activists that were running away and fleeing from countries like Libya, the Gulf and North Africa. First of all, Islam is an exceptionally fractured place. Two, there is also a difference in generations and interpretation and the rather the application of Islam in the lives of Muslims. So people who are 50 plus will take an approach in our country where Islam is not so overt and carried overtly for them. It is something that is something that is personal to them. They may dress like me. They may look like me. They just get on with their lives. And so there is a generational difference. And then if we go down the generation, it becomes much more overt in terms of its significance and symbolism. Not just the hijab, not just the clothes change and then but also a sense of Islam being much more of an identifying and much more of an expressive factor in the way people lead their lives. So we've got generational change here. I think third thing which is important is also we need to not forget the historical links of the United Kingdom to the Commonwealth. So we've got countries from the Commonwealth who have had that generational link where I grew up in when I was when I was born in Uganda and then kicked out, I came to the UK, my family did and we went to Kenya for 10 years. When I was up to 11, I always had I was scored in British schools because of the Commonwealth link, because of the colonial link, the British system of values, the history of Britain was inculcated in a really positive and at many times in a very positive way, but also gave me a sense that I was deeply umbilical, umbilically connected to this country. So we've got that difference going on where there are some countries not from the Commonwealth family who have no connection to Britain, who saw Britain as a quote state that was there any even who have come to settle in the UK. And so you know with that comes and with that when it becomes mixed with a political form of Islam which developed over 40 years and a lack of theological leadership within British Muslim communities leaves the space for some very sadly angry people to start to develop a view of Islam and to develop a view of non-Muslims which can be deeply problematic. Now many Muslims clearly are integrating getting on with their lives, playing a role in society, but we cannot and I cannot stay quiet about what I see affecting our country. And that is there are parts in parts of Muslim communities where young people are totally rejecting a sense of secularism, the secular space and in effect knowing very little about Islam and its history about how it was interpreted, interpreted at various points or even looking at the common sense approach which I call the common sense approach is well you can accept the religion and then you can look at some of the scriptural texts and go well that's not really relevant for me today. I can interpret it in a different way. I can even not look at that or believe in that or let it go or drop it but actually that is a discussion yet to be had within Muslim circles. So we're far from being in a settled place right now but we have some real issues that are coming up particularly with the Muslim communities. There are some real generational host commonwealth theological issues that are impacting it and buffeting it in the UK. So it's a bit of a long winded analysis but there's a lot going on here. Yeah, no that's actually really useful and I wanted to touch in particular on the generational issue and I wanted to ask you about that specifically because that's something I've been noticing for some time. So where I live there are some older Muslims and there's these two Muslim gentlemen in particular who are quite old. I'm presuming they're very conservative. They walk around in a suit and tie most days and I'm sure they go to mosque and I don't think anyone would have a problem with people like that. Their religion is pretty much a private affair I guess. Then you go down to younger generations. People who are technically more British than me. I'm a first generation Britain. We're talking about third generation Britain's in this instance. Maybe the maybe even the fourth generation is coming up now and they will often wear very traditional outfits. The girls will sometimes wear hijabs and when I've spoken on university campuses and some of these people have been in the audience, I've heard really quite obscene comments for some of them and I know that will still be a minority rather than the majority but even openly anti-Semitic comments from some of these kids with very London accents. I think a lot of people are probably clocking that. The Muslims who came here originally kind of pretty much kept to themselves and as you said there was in some cases a link back to the common wealth and so on but then as you go down the generations there seems to be more radicalisation or Islam becomes a core part not only of your private life but of your public identity. How has that come about and then I guess a secondary question. What can be done to tackle that? Absolutely. I think the generation that came here in the 50s and 60s and then onwards came to the UK with some understanding of that value system in the colonial links. Some understanding was there. There was a system structure in our country also which was much more I think which was much more formalised which gave a path by which people could lead their lives, the way they addressed, the way they engage with others and also they had to engage with the ID communities because there were no real significant minority communities. They had to engage and that meant by having to engage they had to change their own perspective. They had to change their own ideas. They had to change the way they're previously believing which was a good thing which was a good thing. That's the way we learn. That's the way we progress by actually changing ideas. You talked about that. That's it. Changing ideas, testing them out and dropping the ones that are not working for us or wider society. That sense of having to get by and live opened up perspectives for that first generation. I think there was also a sense that many had come from countries where they had been either persecuted or there was war or there was poverty and they genuinely felt thankful to the UK for giving them the space that they could have alive. That was a very strong feeling in the first generation. However, difficult things were with racism and they was, they felt that they were very thankful to be in Britain and that's something I just pick up from that generation having interviewed them work with them on projects. Then what we have is we have in the kind of early 80s onwards. Again, there's a sense of politicization of Islam that creeps in and it's very linked to this kind of globalization of conflict and its importation and people coming in with these beliefs. It very is linked to people coming in from different parts of the globe with these conflicts. It is linked to the Muslim Brotherhood. It is linked to Islamist activists and then you have this politicization taking place but you then have between the 80s and 2000 up to 9/11 and beyond major global events which feed into a cycle, a kind of a deep victimization narrative that was being promoted from the mid 80s, a bi-political actors and social activists. That actually Islam was under threat that Western society was attacking it and so you get this factor that that victimization narrative linked with what was happening globally being seen globally was basically being converged and put together in the minds of younger generations. In other words when 9/11 happened it was a case of well actually let's not look at the ideology that conducted 9/11 and how toxic it was. There was a case of reading it as oh here we go we're going to be attacked again. The victim narrative literally was the read through by which many young people, many British Muslims at the time were looking at the situation and so you get this compounding of a deep victimization narrative which is still very deep in some parts of my co-religionist but actually that compounded itself and so once that sense of being victimized became felt and became absorbed it created a sense of a reaction through their Muslim identity they started to wear their Muslim identity more as a form of a reaction to the sense of perceived victimization and again linked into that is the politicization the importation of conflicts linked to that is a sense that the people felt racism they they kind of took a black and white approach that if they suffered racism it was a case of well I'm not wholly accepted rather than hold on there's a couple of these idiots and the wider society have given me a chance I'm in this country I've got safety I've got education I've got an opportunity instead of taking a wider approach it was this case of I'm not accepted there was a very narrow black and white approach taken to things which a lot of radical activists use they use that black and white thinking so I think I think I think there are a number of factors particularly in the mid 80s that create a sense of deep victimization global events then layer on to that perspective and perception and you get this reaction of British Muslim identity through clothes through isolationism in some communities through Muslim communities kind of in a way saying, you know, we've got no space, the West doesn't like us, some parts of Muslim communities at least thinking that. And I think that's been compounded by the issue of Islamism, which we cannot get away from. How do you think we might kind of chip away at some of this? Well, I think it's really important to chip away at this by challenging the victimization narrative. The first absolute starting point is at the core of this is the sense that, you know, Muslims are under threat. No, they're not. No, they're not. You know, Muslims are not under threat. You know, we have two billion, nearly 1.62 billion Muslims in the UK. There are nearly four, four point five Muslim million Muslims in the UK. We are, we are living in a free, open, secular, safe space still in the United Kingdom. We're not under threat. We're not being attacked. There are real opportunities Britain gives us. And I think we need to absolutely challenge the victim narrative. That is the starting point when people go, oh, it's us. No, it's not. And we list the reasons why and we keep listing the reasons why and we keep challenging. That's the first component. The second thing is the fact I think here around holding the secular space and holding the secular value space, I think our institutions have literally in all fairness kind of sold the secular space completely out. And I understand, you know, inclusion and including other communities and making sure other communities have a voice is an important factor. But there is also the need to sometimes challenge and say, no, this is not part of what an institution should get involved in. This is not what an institution should be supporting. We need to hold what institution is institutional values we stand for. And that means serving all communities. And we're not going to kind of give a perspective that we're going to adapt or change for one community. So I think I think that's important. The third thing is I think it's really absolutely important to untangle some of the Islamist narrative, which is seeped into the victimization approach. We need to also untangle the sense of political Islam. It has to be untangled and it has to be challenged. And I think fourth, we need to stand up for the issue of, and I say this as an ally, clearly, I'm not female, but we need to say this as an in terms of allyship with women that actually, you know, some of the issue around dress, some of the issue around identity and dress. Um, needs to be challenged by women in our society. Um, by women saying actually is that, is that the sense of dress helping you or not helping you? Is that helping you in not just economically socially, but in terms of your own emotional well being? Is that something that your religion allows for? And so even to ask that or accept or not allows or accepts? Is that even really needed in your religion as a question? Because, you know, we've got people wearing the Nicarb, etc. I mean, the Nicarb is not mandated in Islam. Modesty is mandated in Islam. Now, modesty can mean a whole range of things. Does it necessarily have to mean the Nicarb in a hijab? And the answer is for some theologians? No. For a groaning number of Muslim theologians? No. So even that discussion and debate, we need to have that with, I hope, women in the wider communities are actually starting to ask those questions and challenge that perspective. I mean, I can't do that. I find it difficult as a man. Maybe it's just me. But, you know, there's perspective that Islam equals a hijab. Islam equals a Nicarb. It's nonsensical and actually, what's the reality? The reality is being in that space, a lot of these women will not be able to engage with other people. It's the sad reality. Will it help them economically? I don't think it will. I now see women in a Nicarb numerous times a day in parts of London I go to, which is not that long ago. You might see one every now and then a couple of times a week, but I see them every single day now and I have to confess I find it a difficult thing to have to see. I don't like seeing women with their faces covered on the streets of London. It's not something I support. It's not something I think is regressive. I think it's misogynistic. I think it doesn't fit in our society. And I'm increasingly of the opinion that we probably need to take for a match and to make it either difficult or illegal for women to be made to dress like that. That's a whole other difficult topic, of course. But in relation to that, and in relation to other women in the UK, including many feminists, let's be honest, not speaking out about this. In fact, sometimes doing the opposite, sometimes celebrating the hijab as this wonderful, not necessarily celebrating the Nicarb, but definitely the hijab as this wonderful garment. But an issue there, of course, is the question of Islamophobia. And I wanted to ask you specifically about that. There's even another word hijabophobia. I'm sure you've heard it where even criticizing the hijab can be seen as a kind of anti-Islamic form of bigotry or racism. Or to get to the fundamentals, how do you see that term? What role do you think it plays in this discussion? I think it plays an enormous role in this discussion. Islamophobia is the term and it's a completely bloody nonsensical term. And speaking of somebody who's done work on countering anti-Muslim hatred for two decades, Islamophobia is and was a term that was developed and supported in a way to stop attacks on Islam. It's just by definition the word says it all. Now, there was another interpretation that says in a way that it was a way of defining anti-Muslim hatred, but it doesn't say anti-Muslim hatred. It says Islamophobia is straight on the tin. So it was a way of stopping attacks on Islam. I know because in the mid 80s and late 80s, when it was developed as a term and it was brought out, many Muslim communities said, "Ah, this is a good term to use because we need to stop Islam being attacked." That's what they said. So the root and branch of it is Islamophobia as a term has been used, abused, and continues to be used to stop critique about my religion. And I think it is a woeful failure of liberal democratic society where we have allowed ourselves to step back from holding the space where we can critique any religion. Well, let me also caveat that. It seems that Christianity's fair game to be critiqued. Right. Because there's no "come up"ance. You're not going to get killed or attacked. Okay, and you know, I remember in boarding school in 1984 watching the life of Brian. So I was early exposed to having a laugh about religion. And the reality is, for me, that's what I grew up with. So actually, that was about Christianity. But you know, if you're going to be critiquing Christianity, you, it's quite open. People can do it because there's no repercussion. You critique Islam and you have to watch your back. Okay, you have to watch your back because there's a very good chance, like Samarachdi, somebody's going to take a pop at you. So that is part of the outcome of this extremely toxic term Islamophobia, which has created a culture and also a mindset within some in my, in my faith, who say, well, actually, how dare people question my religion? How dare they? Well, I'll physically act upon that. So the consequence of Islamophobia has not only been to stop debate. It has been to create in the minds of some and in the minds of some vulnerable people a reaction, which is, let me stop it physically. So there is a deadly side to it. And I think liberal society has kind of stepped back because who wants to be accused then? It's a short step from being accused of Islamophobia to racism. And what we had was those people, and I had a huge debate and a huge falling out with a lot of people, including some politicians, in the House of Lords and in political life, where they were trying to push the 2018 APPG definition of Islamophobia to me, thinking I would just accept it and I challenged and push back because what I said is we don't need this. We don't want this. This is going to stop free descent and debate. And actually, when you're trying to push the term Islamophobia, you are going to further dampen the ability for us to hold the space to debate anything. So I took that view and I got, I came in for some fire and heat, including some people who are in this government in very senior positions today, who supported the 2018 APPG definition of Islamophobia, which was then trying to bring in issues around Palestine and Gaza into the definition. which then brought in issues around, and this is where it became, when I talk about a short step between calling somebody as lumbafobic and racism, it tried to fuse the two. The 2018 definition tried, not tried. It actually said the two are intrinsically linked. And so what they were trying to say is, if we deem you to even question our faith, you are racist. Completing a ton nonsense. - Yeah, I think that's very well put. I remember all the discussion about the AGP definition of Islamophobia. And I was one of the people who signed an open letter saying, "There's a problem here." And I think in that letter, we made the point that there is an issue with anti-Muslim bigotry. But to conflate that, and you know that topic better than most, but to conflate that with, as you call it, Islamophobia is a real problem, because that is just bringing in an idea of blasphemy. In relation to the Islamophobia slash racism issue, which I think you've described really well there, one of the topics, in terms of it being deadly, because I think you're absolutely right, that it can embolden more radical elements, because if society says to them, your religion is perfect and no one may criticize it, then they're gonna be embolden to attack those who do criticize it. And we've seen that in France, we've seen it in the UK. The other topic, of course, which touches on this, is the rape gang issue. And I've heard you talking about this very well before, and I did want to get your latest thoughts on it. Listeners will be familiar, numerous vulnerable, primarily white girls, also some Sikh girls as well, were abused and raped and trafficked over in many towns, by gangs of primarily Muslim men. It's a familiar story. One of the reasons it didn't come to light, perhaps as early as it should, is because of a fear of being thought of as Islamophobic, police forces, local councils, and so on, were worried that they would stir up Islamophobia or be accused of Islamophobia. Give me a sense of how that scandal is seen, I guess, in the Muslim community. Is it taken seriously, and to you, I guess individually, how worrying was that decades-long scandal in terms of the ideals of social cohesion? How has it been seen? - Well, I think there was a time when the issues around grooming gangs were seen as, quote, another quote, attack on Muslims by many co-religionists. It was seen as another, oh, here we go, we're gonna be victims again. And I think this was problematic 'cause it was not seen initially through the view of victims. It was seen as that sense of we're being under a threat and attack, and I think that says a lot. It says a lot, because that's been the perspective, which has led to the issues of how identity comes out with just talked about that. I think that was the initial reaction. I think there was also this sense that, oh, this is racism, push it, partly pushing the agenda. So Islamophobia and racism element were part of the internal narrative that were going around in parts of Muslim communities. I think there were some sections of Muslim communities that just were taken aback by what they were hearing. And but they kept quiet about it. Because how can you raise, how can you raise a voice within a community that where you can get a backlash from? Okay, so those that actually genuinely felt, oh, my God, this is awful. Just kind of kept it to themselves because they would have received some kind of backlash either on their social media postings or in their workplace if there were other significant numbers of Muslims, et cetera, et cetera. So we didn't have a really account of voice, but the perspective was, this is a focus on us again. This is a anti-Muslim kind of finger pointing and it's got nothing to do with our religion. Now, the answer to that is clearly it has nothing to do with being a Muslim. But it has everything to do with for some, of the perpetrators, it has everything to do with how they perceive looking at other non-Muslim communities. Okay, so these are difficult things, but they need to be said. And this is the reality is within some of these cases, again, as I say, within Islamic theology, it's got nothing, there is no sense of this. However, the people that conducted this clearly saw white young girls as being so low and part of that was driven by a sense of, well, we are morally more superior or we can do what we want because, frankly, you know, you're the bottom of the heap. These perspectives within some were driven because they saw a difference between them culturally, religiously, and these girls and wider society. And we cannot get away from that. Some of these girls are also saying that, you know, some of these men were saying, well, you're not part of our religion, you're not part of our faith. And so there is that narrative and examples and nobody can get away from that. So the perspective some of these men were carrying was actually that if you're Muslim, great, you're great, if you're non Muslim and you're in a really vulnerable position and you're female, where we can do what we want. So I think, so what is this done for social cohesion? It has been a major, major tear for social cohesion right across the board. I can tell you that from my work in social cohesion, encountering extremism, hate crime, et cetera, there are some core incidences that I can point to where I felt Britain's social cohesion was literally torn apart and I can point to those. The first one was the murder of Lee Rigby in my work on anti-Muslim hate. The first one was the murder of Lee Rigby and the way he was killed. The second one was the grooming scandals and that was significant. So that was a major tearing apart of our sense of social cohesion. The third were the Syria and wars in the Middle East and the migration of individuals to Europe. So third, I can pick them out here. And then in to spurs between all of those are like Islamist terrorist attacks in Manchester, at the Ariana Grande Conference. I can pick these out where there were significant tear factors but the grooming scandal is one right at the heart of them. So it has caused such a tear. It has caused such a fear. It has caused a sense of vulnerability in some women as to how they see people of my skin tone. It has caused such deep fractures that I think there has got to be. There has got to be a reflection by my co-religionists and a deep introspection about what has taken place here. Have I got a sense of that publicly being said not yet? It's not to say it's not happening but part, I think there needs to be more voices from my community and from British Muslims saying, we need to have an introspection here. What happened with some of these men quote store warts or religiously lovely people, elderly individuals over the age of 50 living one life and then doing the most heinous things to the most vulnerable in our society? What's that about? - Yeah, I mean, it's a discussion. You think people would, it's not a nice discussion but you would think that people would want to have it in order to mend some of those problems that are precisely that you've talked about. - Definitely, definitely because when there is a moral catastrophe, that's what this is. It's a moral catastrophe. That's so many members of the Pakistani Muslim community are caught in this. This is a moral catastrophe. It is a moral cancer. To get a moral cancer out of the system, we have to look at it. We have to call it out. We have to understand it. And then we have to acknowledge its taken place and here are the reasons before we can even consider to put that moral injury right. - Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. And I wanted to ask you, following on from what you've just said there about, because you talk about the sense that some of these men had that they were morally superior to these girls, the riffraff, non-Muslim white girls, poor, they were seen as almost a subhuman in some situations. That kind of, and as you said earlier, that kind of attitude grates directly against the ideals of equality, which should be central to British public life. But I wanted to ask you about the broader problem of some people called it cultural supremacy, moral supremacy, this growing desire, I guess, amongst sections of the Muslim community to be much more assertive in their religiosity. And the grooming gang is a very specific example of that. It's a moral catastrophe, as you say. But when you think about things like public praying and mass public praying, thousands of people gathering in Trafalgar Square, for example, and city comes there as well, and Nick Timothy criticized it. He was called racist, of course, which is absurd, I think. There are more and more incidents like that. And we've all seen the video clips of, you know, a Christian preacher being shouted down by Muslim men in White Chapel, for example, which is a very Muslim part of London, who say, you can't say that, we don't like it, get the hell out of here, this is a Muslim area. This kind of assertiveness, which crosses the line sometimes into cultural supremacy. We're better than you, and we're going to show you that we're better than you by doing all these various things. What is going on there, do you think? I mean, if we take the case of public praying, for example, I've read, you can tell me if this is right or wrong, I've read that mass acts of public praying, I'm not even allowed in some Islamic countries, but they're happening in the UK. Those kinds of things and the discussion around them, what do you think of that? - You're absolutely, first of all, you're absolutely right. In some Islamic countries, the sense of mass prayer is not allowed, because it has been in those contexts, it's been used as a political purpose to whip up instability. It's been used. So mass prayer, for example, in the Egyptian context, has been used by the Muslim Brotherhood to effectively be an assertive force against the government and to, in a way, create a sense that you, the government needs to watch its back. So there are very clear examples of political Islam being used to assert itself through spaces in a dominant fashion, through mass prayer. In fact, okay, there's no getting around that. It's so evident, and, you know, Egyptian officials have known that for decades. Jordanian officials have known that for decades, as the Jordanian branches and Muslim Brotherhood, brotherhood, much weaker now, much quieter now, but these assertive forces have used religion to whip up, in a way, instability, and to hold the government to account by these issues of mass prayer. So there isn't clearly, there is clearly an Islamist link in those contexts. Now, if you look at the context, for example, in Trafalgar Square, I took a different sort of opinion. And again, you know, if we're looking at nic Timothy, nic Timothy is not a racist, he is absolutely holding the public space for all communities. That's where he was coming from. And I support and I defend his excellent work against Islamism. So I see Nick as a friend. I see him as an ally against Islamism. So it's really important I just be up front about that. And second of all, I think the issue around, this kind of mass prayer around Trafalgar Square, was coming from a place that was less politically inclined and more spontaneous, never the less. And here's where I also take a different tack. The more the public see that, the more some wider sections get frightened. Because the issue of Islam in the public sphere is not a settled issue. It is a live debate and people have fears around it. They have genuine fears. They're not racist. We can't blacklist people for those fears. And so was it a really useful thing to do, in my opinion, no, no. Was it a helpful thing to do, no. Because if you wanna go and pray, find a quiet spot, go and find a place, but go home. Islam allows you to go home and pray. Or you can even pray if you're traveling or you're somewhere else, you can sit in a bench and just quietly nod your head, pray away in your mind, but you can do that quietly. So I thought the spontaneous prayer was not helpful. I think these elements can clearly be seen as an assertive force that people get frightened of. I think it has political connotations. I don't think these were the political connotations that took place in Trafalgar Square, but there are clear political connotations of Islamism and mass prayer. So Nick was onto something here. You can't just, Nick was onto something here. I just disagree in the context. And fourth and last but not least, we have not even tried to look at some of the issues where Islam is in the discourse. So if we've not talked about or reflected upon as Muslims about the moral cancer and the catastrophe around grooming gangs, and then suddenly you have mass prayer, we not even start to address the issues and concerns of fears of wider sections of our society. No wonder people have started to think, "Oh, don't, what are these groups up to?" Yeah, I think one of the dangers we face at the moment, and I hear this from people, not even necessarily people on the right, just kind of ordinary everyday people, there is a sense of Islam fatigue, I think, and that will be really bad for British Muslims, if that Islam fatigue grows. I think people, some people are thinking, you know, why are we always talking about Islam? Why are we always seeing this stuff? Why are people praying here? Why are they doing this? There is this sense of people feel worn down by this topic, and that would be disastrous for the Muslim, the law-abiding hard work in Muslims of this country. I've got a couple more. Sorry, Brendan, just one other thing, I truly, truly, truly, and I'm saddened to see this sense of lack of reflection, and I want to just add this other thing, that as I said, the more this sense of assertiveness has felt, the more it is fracturing our country. So, you know, for those Muslims who say, well, I've got to assert myself, I say, you know, I say this, listen, you know, 40 years, in 40 years, this country has gone transformative change. This country has absorbed, has been understanding, has been reflective, has been accepting, but don't push the elastic band too far. No nation will accept a complete and utter change so fast. Don't push this elastic band to the degree where people feel as if one community is always in the domain, you know, and in a way, my view is also to say, no, if you believe in your faith, Islam allows for that flexibility, then start to implement flexibility in your own life and in the application of religion, but flexibility in also stepping back from doing certain things, that allow for deeper connection with each other. Step back, right? You don't have to be that assertive and dressed. You don't have to be that assertive in religiosity. Step back, allow for some flexibility. And I really make that call to younger Muslims, if they are listening, come on. You know, assertiveness is actually driving wedges between us. - I think that's very well put. Yeah, okay, I've just got a couple more questions for you before I let you go. I'm following on from all of that, fascinating stuff. I wanted to ask you about the question of Muslim anti-Semitism. Now, you are you are key to Muslims against anti-Semitism. Voices like yours have been really important in calling out the scourge of anti-Semitism, which has got worse over the past three years, in particular, since 7th of October. It used to be, I feel that it used to be more acceptable to talk about the problem of anti-Semitism that exists in sections of the Muslim community. I mean, even Medi Hassan, for example, 15 or 20 years ago, was writing in the New Statesman, I think his piece was called some like, "Island, British Muslims dirty secret," or something like that, you know. He said there's lots of anti-Semitism in the Muslim community. I feel that if someone were to say that now, Medi Hassan would probably be at the front of the line accusing them of demonizing Muslims or being Islamophobic or whatever. What is the situation with anti-Semitic thought in sections of the British Muslim communities? It's still a problem, has it got worse with the guards of conflict? How does it stand right now? - Yeah, wow, wow, wow. So, you know, the fact of the matter is anti-Semitism in parts of British Muslim communities really grew, really grew again with the activism of Muslim Brotherhood and Islamist activists in the mid '80s, having run away and sought asylum and got asylum in our country, these people became active in a very passive set of Muslim communities. So, because they were like communists, they were so determined about Islam being the salvation that they literally got into institutions and their viewpoints permeated and percolated through and what did they carry? But then the recruiting message wasn't about, let's talk about theology, the recruiting message was Palestine. The recruiting message was Afghanistan at that time with the conflict, with the Soviet Union. And that is what they pushed. And so you've got this politicization around Palestine, absolutely refocusing the energy of large sections of Muslim communities from the mid '80s onwards. And, with those leaflets outside mosques, with those pamphlets, with those old dodgy cassette tapes that were circulated at those times, quite significantly, with the rise of groups like Ahem, Isbathahir, Al-Mahadjirun, etc. And with the placing of Palestine and the Palestinian issue with Israel, right front and center in the debate, what we also had was a general sense of anti-Semitism being the norm in the language that was used against Jews through the prism of the Middle East conflict. So for 40 years the language of anti-Semitism has circulated and percolated and percolated and gone outwards. And so in effect it has grown. Now there have been clearly some, there's been a lot of work done by the Jewish public policy unit, there's work with CST, Community Security Trust, etc. Putting and I'm just giving you a guesstimation. Putting on average, putting on average about between 20 to 25% of people that they've interviewed on polling before October the 7th, before October 7th, literally one in four of the people they pulled were people who believed in some kind of anti-Semitic rhetoric or anti, or had voiced anti-Semitic discourse or believed something of that Palestine that was promoting anti-Semitism. That's one in four of the people they pulled before October the 7th. That's a significant number for a small community, that's a significant, you know. Now after October the 7th, it has drastically risen, drastically risen. And more and more people have picked up the language and discourse of anti-Semitism. Some who have issues around the conflict fall into the use of anti-Semitic discourse, but many actively use it. And then there are others who get sucked into it, but what I'm saying to you is it has significantly grown. And the anger and the animosity to do's has also significantly grown. I get sick of some of my co-religionists in politics, absolutely sick of them talking about, oh, it's only a handful. Oh, it's just a few of them. Oh, it's just a handful of people that like ISIS. Oh, it's just a few people that are anti-Semitic. The reality is anti-Semitism is a significant issue and continues to rumble on in parts of Muslim communities. That is a fact. So we're into a generational issue here. It has been two generations already, a significant issue. Now we're into another one. The risk to synagogues we all know is significant. The risk to Jewish life is significant. The sad fact is more and more Jews are considering leaving. We know that and many have left. And so the future for Jewish life concerns me as a non-Jew because actually I like Jews. I don't want Jewish life to be affected. I think I love Britain's rich history and that is a strong Jewish history. So for me, I find it sickness. For me, I will continue to call it out. But and again, all of us must challenge the anti-Semitism we hear coming from even parts of my community. We must challenge it. And last but not least, I think it's imperative in all of us to be allies to British Jews in the fight against anti-Semitism. Just as I've given up many years of my life to tackling anti-Muslim hatred, it's imperative I do the same and stand with Jewish brothers and sisters. But I think there's a real extremist and terrorist threat to Jewish communities that will not go away for the next decade plus. And I think for you and I, Brendan, it is so depressing. Sorry to be there. It's so depressing to see the state where this is today. So what can be done? We should challenge. What else can be done? We need to challenge some of the religious leaders who promote this. Third, I am absolutely second. And again, this is the lack of theological leadership in Muslim communities. It's just glaringly obvious. There were tens of mosques that were promoting what they call religious edicts or talks during prayers that were anti-Semitic in discourse. Tens of mosques, now caught on video from their own mouths and their own gobs, making anti-Semitic metrics in prayers in mosques. Now, one would expect when, you know, if I've got a mosque, I don't want somebody to promote hate. I don't want somebody to promote inequality. I don't want somebody to rail me up so that I become an angry man. I want to find peace. I want to find kindness. I want to find solace. I want to find gentleness to humanity and ask each of us as human beings. But tens of mosques promoted anger and hatred to Jews. None of them, as far as I understand, has been, has had their charity commission status or their registrations removed. And I think that's part of the issue here is we've got to start calling out some of these institutions, folding them to account. We need to make sure that those people who said it are no longer in a position of influence. We need to start to say to the charity commission, "Have you got any backbone whatsoever or any backbone left for doing nothing to challenge these people?" And last but not least, I just want to kind of also add that you know, it is absolutely, I don't think this Labour government is anywhere near going to do anything around these issues because frankly, they, you know, they're looking at the political base of things. And last but not least, I just want to say this that, you know, the, the, I, I am so saddened to see so many British Muslims who don't have opportunity because of a range of reasons, who basically don't sit, who sit at home and rail about Palestine, fine. Everyone has the right to rail about anything they want, but who rail about Palestine and who have not worked, don't have any economic base, living with mind, mind, power, have no future. And I'm saying, are you blind? Sort your own life out. Sort your own self out. For God's sake, do something for society and yourself and make an economic base for yourself. Because all you're doing is toxifying our country and our society and providing very little for yourself, your own mental health or this country. And it just sickened me to see that. Yeah, that's very passionately put and leads me on to my final question for you, which is just about how difficult it is. I think one reason people appreciate your voices, not only because of all the same things you say, which you've been saying here as well over the past hour, but also because it can't be easy to be part of the Muslim community and to say some critical things about the Muslim community. Let's be honest, because that's seen as a, I don't know, I don't know if Muslims use the term Uncle Tom, but it is that kind of, you know, try to, you know, you're, you're siding with the other side. Whatever people might say, I don't know. And I'm not asking you this question to discourage other people from speaking out in the way that you do. So I definitely don't want to do that. But I did want to get a sense from you of what it's like to take some of the positions that you do, what, what blowback you get and why you carry on regardless of that. Thank you for that, Brendan. That's, that's, that's, that's questions just make me think and emotionally get kind of connected because this has been a very difficult journey, right? A very difficult journey. It's made me question my own sense of identity. It's made me question my own sense of religiosity, I have to tell you, it's questioned my own sense of sanity sometimes because I felt threatened, really threatened. And, you know, in that process, you know, I, I, I thought that there was a, I spent many years assisting and promoting, as you said, bringing community together, listening to Muslim communities, engaging. I spent a lot of effort, time, resource doing that. And when I started speaking out, there was a sense of Islamist groups, not sense, there were Islamist groups. They were, they're useful idiots in politics. And there were people who wanted to defend Islam that just literally turned on me. After all the years of work I've done in the, I had done in the community. And I thought to myself, is this where we are in British Islam? And sadly, it was. It was a space where defensiveness, closed-offness, was part of the narrative and the norm in large sections of my community. And I thought to myself, this is toxic. This is really poisonous because there is no reflection, going back to reflection. There's no change of behavior. Reflection needs to change behavior. There's no even reflection. There's no even acknowledgement of bad things being done. You know, somebody said to me, somebody said to me the once in my life, If you know, she says, you know, we all need to have that sense of accountability and it struck me. And I thought about things I had done in my life and thought God, I didn't do enough accountability for that. You know, we need to reflect. It takes reflection. And so that didn't take place. All that took place was a sense of attack against myself. And so I questioned, what kind of Islam do I want to see? Do I want to see this attacking, closed, introspective, naval gazing? We're all in it together victims. Oh, the West hates us yet. Some of these very individuals made millions out of our country. Let me tell you, some of the people who are railing against Islamophobia today, own multiple houses, own tens of millions of pounds of housing stock. I know who they are. They're in the house. They're in the house of lords. They're social activists and Muslim community. And they have absolutely mocked up all of the economic gains of this society. And then they excruinent on our society. Sorry to use that word. And I will call them out there. I'm sick. They take the good and they just dump on us. And I said, and I thought to myself, do I stand for my value system? Or do I stand for their form of Islam, which is toxified? And I had to be honest with myself, to live with myself. And so I stand for my values. And what are those values? Those values are part Islamic. Just say those values are part Islamic. Those values are part influenced by Christian tradition from the schools I went to. They influenced by Western democracy by which I was brought up with. The influence by my schooling of British value systems. All of this mix makes me up. And those are my value systems. By standing with them, I decided I really just needed to be myself and to be open and to be a good human being. And the reality is I decided at that point, I am going to call out bad behavior on the part of people who say it's because of my religion. I'm going to call out scriptural text, that is nonsense. I am going to call out behavior that causes the pain and distress of other people in my society. IE and Britain out and all globally, if I see it. And I'm going to also call out the absolutely nonsensical theological garbage. If I see it, because for me, it's glaringly obvious. A lot of this, most of our religions have been written by men who are at certain time at an age and who had no understanding of what the future would bring. And actually people can't see that. Good luck to them, but they're not going to use that to affect other people's lives. That's classic. That sums up where I am today. So I'm driven by my values. I'm driven by just trying to be a decent human being. I'm driven by just trying to be good and not to do harm. And if there are bits of my religion, I think our toxic, I'll call it out. If there are actions within my co-religionist, I will call them out. I will be honest about where also Islam's development has come from. I will be honest to myself. And if some Muslims don't like it, well, good luck to you. Because I need to live with myself. And I also need to live with other human beings. I don't see myself as waking up and going, that's a Muslim, that's a non-Muslim. I wake up and I think, and this is my last sentence. But I'm here today and I'm alive today. And I'm here today because of the variety of ideas, kindness, gentleness, love, affection that people from all faith and none, all genders, people from different traditions, people who don't even believe in religion have given to me, that's where I am, and just kept me alive. It's kept me alive. So I don't see life through religion. But if I see its toxicity, I think it's imperative and all of us to be able to call it out, because it will come around and smack us in the head at some point, if we don't call it out. Just as you've done, just as you've continued to do. So hats off to you, hats off to all those people who were doing that. But we need to hold the space where we can all start to have a deeper empathy with each other, rather than thinking, "My God's better than your God." My text says this, your text says this nonsense. Fires, thank you very much, thank you, thank you Brandon. Share Comfort and enjoy this holiday season at Tacovas. Our boots are handcrafted in over 200 meticulous steps, and have a broken in feel right out of the box, with styles for everyone in the family. Our expert staff can help you pick the perfect gifts, and we have free in-store gift wrapping to help make the holiday season truly special. See you soon at your local Tacovas store, or shop with us any time at Tacovas.com. Some personality quirks are really funny, like I talk to my left foot more than I talk to my right. You know what's not funny, and not a personality quirk, OCD. Although the term OCD is widely recognized, it's misunderstood by most people. 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