Why has wine gone out of flavour for many of us?

Well, vineyards around the country are approaching harvest time and while it's still probably too early to tell how the vintage will go, there are concerns that, like last year, grapes will be left unpicked. In 2025, it's estimated around 100,000 tons of grapes were left to rot on the vine. Is that a New Zealand number or globally? It must be here in New Zealand. Goodness me, 100,000 tons. Experts say, one of the reasons for that is the new tariffs in the U.S. New Zealand exports about $750 million of wine to the U.S. each year. And so now on top of that, there's $100 million of tariffs. And another reason is that we're not drinking as much wine as we used to, wine consumption as at its lowest level in more than 20 years. What can wine growers do to combat a change in taste, what's being done already? I'm joined by Kim Thorpe, who's owner of Black Barn Vineyard in Hawkes Bay. Hi, Kim. Can I see how you? Good, thank you. Is this the elephant in the room when wine makers and winery owners get together? What is that? The drop in sales? Well, the drop in consumption, really. Yeah, it's the elephant. I think it's more than an elephant in the room, if an elephant in the room is the unseered. I think it's definitely been said and talked about quite significantly at the moment. Yeah. How's the sales harvest looking, by the way? It's a bit early to help hook space specifically. It has been pretty wet, but it has been warm. So the and there's massive growth on the on the old vines, which takes a bit of controlling. But it is too early to tell at the moment we've got some good hot dry days ahead, I think. So it should be a good vintage. Did those red grapes baking in the sun? Are you ripening up? Is this the New Zealand problem or a global problem? It's actually, it's a global problem. Do you see? I mean, New Zealand's definitely not immune to it, but it's not just us. And I think there's various issues at stake, but I think probably that drop in alcohol consumption generally is certainly a key driver and a key discussion point at the moment. Yeah. And I should acknowledge too that lots of people will be listening saying, hey, that's a good thing. And that we needed to start drinking less alcohol. That's probably a separate conversation. But for people like you who are in the wine business, obviously it's going to affect things. You've just come back from Bordeaux, a famous part of the world. Why were you there? Well, that was really interesting, actually. Hawkes Bay was recently, annoying to this, been one of the great wine capitals of the world. And Bordeaux had the AGM in November last year. So I was there for that. And this was obviously a huge topic of discussion around that was. And it's not even so much about how do you get people drinking more. I mean, I totally, this whole responsible drinking thing is a really important and significant piece of life, if you like. So we've got to acknowledge that and be realistic about that. And it's more about how you integrate wine into other experiences and into other situations and things where it is part of it, not just simply sitting, having, sitting, drinking potentially. And there was lots of chats about that and lots of chats about the issue. And one of the main things really was, I guess, which is this important thing, is it just a blip or is it a trend? And it definitely feels like it's a trend. If it's a blip, you obviously all just try and write through it. If it's a trend, you've actually got to work out how you how you change things and alter things to cope with it for the future. Yeah. And just to clarify, is it that wine consumption is down and all alcohol consumption is down or is wine particularly suffering? What it seems to be is that alcohol consumption is down and without sounding like a beating up little party on this, wine is taking the wreck. Like if you ever see a negative story on alcohol, it's usually a female hand on a stem of a red wine glass. And that's if you look, whenever you see a story, it's never a bottle of general or whatever. It's a red wine glass been consumed by a woman. And I asked a few people about this and a very significant research company that was in Bordeaux made the point that what that was about really was the low-hanging fruit. If you can scare people off really wine, then all other alcohol will follow in line. So it has actually been used, it's quite a strategic point to use it as a, as the example of why we shouldn't be consuming as much alcohol. Yeah. And I guess your point there is the scene they're depicting in this, you know, these stories which are negative about alcohol is probably not the big part of the problem. I mean, again, some people would argue that all drinking is bad drinking, but imagine the, in terms of abuse, a woman in her 30s having a glass of wine with dinner is probably not the first thing you need to take care of. No, and I think the other thing about that too is that sometimes as you probably were in the past, red wine has had mixed, mixed rat on being good for you, not good for you and all of that sort of thing. So the strategy apparently is that if you convince the world that red wine's not good for you, then all other alcohol, which is considered worse, will fall in line. So I mean, that's a very specific thing, but yeah, but it's definitely a spearhead. And I think to answer your question, people are drinking less all over the world, and that is probably a good thing. So it's how we adapt to that and adjust to that, and wine is definitely part of that. Young people are converting to wine later in life, if at all, right? Yeah, there's an interesting, so there's the great thing about or dough and a bit of a plug here too, that AGM is in Hawke's Bay this year in mid October. Oh, how exciting. So they've all of those, all of those brains and all of that research, all of those and live in other countries, all tipping in here, which will be, I tell you Jesse, it is deeply fascinating. I mean, we would, I was just gripped the whole four days that the conference was on, and there's so much good, controversial, um, commentary and statement being made, people aren't scared to stand up and say what the problems are, and it's very, very, um, it is really interesting. So yeah, and anyway, and I forgot what you asked. Yeah, and by the way, that's a good news for you, Kim, because it must be really tough flying to Europe to attend these wine conferences. Thank you for doing it on behalf of the industry. Yeah. All right, take one for the team. Just young people, that's part of the big part of the trend, right? Young people not converting to wine. Yeah, sorry. What, what was interesting there is that, again, this is all sort of the latest facts and stuff, I guess, is there seems to be quite a trend at about the age of 35 that people, um, rediscovering and coming back into wine. Obviously, RTDs and those sorts of things have stormed up into the mid-20s age groups, which was wine probably a decade ago. And, but at about 35 people are looking back to discovering, or for the first time discovering wine, but discovering it in quite a different way to what they used to, it's, again, it's more, it's whole tourism and wine thing. For yous like, it's got, it's got real legs and traction, and it's about the whole experience of it spending time and have injured, um, talking with wine makers, all of that sort of thing versus, again, just simply, um, hoovering alcohol, if you like, like it's, and, and that age group, it is coming into that and is looking at it with quite a different approach, which is really interesting. For you, Kim, somebody who's trying to sell wine, RTDs, the enemy? Um, I, well, that probably from a volume point of view that, I think, I think probably RTDs have taken quite a bit of wine consumption. I mean, I noticed we, we've got an amphitheater here, at which we, again, on that 35, we take that pretty seriously. We, we do focus sort of in that younger record as a company. And, um, I know the RTD sales at concerts, I hate to say it, but significantly above wine sales. And, um, so, yes, I think it is, it is a big competitor. Is that about convenience as much as anything? If you're at a concert at Blackburn, easy to grab a can and go and dance with it, then, perhaps a, you know, uh, uh, uh, yeah, yeah, I think, I think that it is part of it. The other thing too, do you see, I had to speak at this thing in Bordeaux. And I, I won't bore you with them all, but I gave four problems that I thought were perhaps strings rather than blips. And one of those, one of those four problems, if you like, is, Mother Nature is actually really expensive to work with, increasingly. Like, you look at anything from red meat to whatever, if you wanted to do things naturally, using land, um, and nature, and working it manually, then that is a really expensive thing to do. Where an RTD is obviously created in a factory somewhere, and, um, nature didn't get very close to it anywhere along the line. So, there are huge efficiencies in those areas as well that aren't there with something with the old good old fashion sort of, um, you know, attributes of wine. That's so interesting. Um, few people are asking whether you might consider producing a good quality zero alcohol wine. Zero alcohol beer has been a big boom industry, and at the moment, according to people texting me, zero alcohol wine tastes terrible. Yes, it's a, it's a very interesting one that, and a much discussed point. I've got a personal point of view on that, and then a overall point of view, that the overall point of view is that they're right. I mean, I think some people are working really hard on it, and doing it quite well. The problem is, is that alcohol is the, is the natural outcome of making wine. So, to have an alcohol free wine, you're actually unwinding it for, for one of a bit or two. You usually would quite a lot of, um, mechanical interference to get it to zero, and then rebuild it back up to take something like wine. That's being a bit critical about it, but, um, it is, you know, that, that's, that's what you're doing. It's, it's, you're not, it's not a natural product anymore of it to zero percent alcohol wine. And my personal point on it is, I've sort of tend to leave wine alone. I think, I think we should look at how we can, it, the alcohol content of wine has increased over over the years, and I think, you know, we can work out ways and varieties that reduce that a little about keeping that natural. And then, personally, I would rather explore and enjoy something else rather than a zero percent alcohol wine than, you know, even, even a beer seems to be able to get closer to begin than, than wine days to, to, to an enjoyable glass of wine. So, who's, I think, there'd be way better options to, to enjoy and consume alcohol free than a, than a, pretend glass of wine. Someone's just seeing self-driving cars might help increase alcohol consumption. There would be the case in a place like Hawkes Bay, right? Where, you just can't, I mean, you never could really, but certainly can't anymore expect to drive out to a vineyard to have a boozy lunch and then drive, you know, 30 kilometres back home. That's absolutely, absolutely. I mean, and you probably, well, you certainly never should have, and you probably, and you certainly can't, and that, that is, that is right. And people are, that has been really looked at. I mean, on Australia, they've worked out this system of a little check-cat that you could, when you're tasting wines, you build it up to work out when you're at a full glass. So, you know, not to drink any more if you're driving. Others, others, obviously, we get an awful lot of guided tours in here with people in the little bus or whatever, which is great. I mean, then you, you know, and also, increasingly, the high ends of the cruise ships come in with guests, and they are definitely guided rather than driving around the vineyards. Yeah, the other thing of that, too, I think, is more, again, a global dream that I was just listening to, something about from Bordeaux a little while ago, was this whole tourism aspect to wine as well. So, you don't just come to somewhere to drink wine, you come to have lunch to listen to something to explore, you know, something and do more than just, just consuming wine. Gosh, I've got a lot of questions. I'm running at a time. Here's one that a couple of people have raised on text. They want to know what the possibilities are for a lower sugar version of wine. One person says I've switched to RTD because I've got a low sugar option. Is that the same sort of problem as the alcohol one came that you sort of need a certain amount of sugar for it to taste like wine? Well, it really is, like I said, an RTD, understandably, is completely manufactured. So, it can be, it can be exactly what it wants to be. As every good wine maker would tell you, the wine is really made in a vineyard and that's nature doing what it does, and we're not adding sugar to it or whatever. I mean, there are obviously sweeter varieties and way less sweet varieties of wines that you can choose a spectrum there. And I personally, I'm just not that bigger fan of force feeding wine to be something that's not. I think we are better to lose some consumers who don't want to drink alcohol totally understandably, or are looking for something else, but rather than trying to push wine into those areas, I'm not talking necessarily packaging about that. I do think this, you know, development of the cans and maybe even back into casts and things is sort of interesting from environmental reasons, as well as convenience reasons, but the wine itself, I do struggle with trying to butcher it to match dreams, really. I wonder if it's a perception thing to it. I see Shardonnay's got one gram of sugar per 100 grams, so that's just over a teaspoon per bottle by my count. And where are you most excited about in terms of exports? We mentioned that tariffs have made US a bit less attractive. What are you seeing as you look around the industry? I think that's the tough bit actually. We're tiny, so we're a premium producer of wines that we basically either sell ourselves or sell through a very good local distributor. We don't really export that much, but these big volumes that have been talked about, scarily, are big export volumes that need to be shifted. And I've got to tell you, Bordeaux and Napa have got exactly the same problem. So where they're shifting theirs, Napa particularly is struggling at the moment, which it never was. And I think a lot of that is apparently Canada has pretty much dried up its US wine consumption, which is a big impact on Canada. So I'm not sure what that will mean for New Zealand exports into the US, which is an important market for us. And tariffs I'm sure do have an impact. I think we're probably more at the premium end and probably a bit more New York paste than California necessarily. But if Napa prices start to drop, that's probably going to be a bit tougher on us as well. One area that is interesting for us is China. That's probably good too long to talk about now, GC, but that pallet shift or no, sorry, wine shifting to the pallet of China rather than trying to force feed them a big Bordeaux read, which they were never really a huge fan of, is a really interesting area for growth. Yeah, well, we changed our apples, didn't we, to Asian and tastes. And yeah, perhaps the same thing will happen. Good to chat to you. Look forward to seeing what sort of solutions you come up with over the next couple of years. Thanks for your time today. All right, thank you. Kim Thorpe's owner of Black Barn Vineyard in Hawkes Bay talking about the trend to drinking less alcohol, less wine.