Why Flexibility Is the New Fare: Inside Airline Innovation with Hopper

(soft music) - It's your point. It's all about ease of use in these very stressful moments and the products were designed to do that whenever we're ready. (soft music) - Hello everyone and welcome back to Travel Trends. This is your host Dan Christian. And we're about to begin our second episode of our aviation series. And I just wanna remind all of our listeners that we are having a major contest to wrap up season six of our podcast. You can win a $1,500 Hayes Astro luggage set. We're giving three away one each week over the course of this series. And all you have to do is post a highlight on your social channels, anything from LinkedIn to Instagram about season six. It was at a great guest or a particular topic. Tag @TravelTrends podcast and we will be awarding one person per week. And the first announcement will be coming out right after this episode on social media. So be sure to follow us on LinkedIn, YouTube and Instagram and TikTok now as well. Today's conversation I've been really looking forward to having Hopper back on our show. We had Hopper as part of our event spotlight from Focusrite and they were keen to join us to be a part of this aviation series. Last week you heard from Roger Blackburn from One World which was an excellent overview of not only the loyalty space within aviation but all aspects of how airlines are evolving in 2026. They're fleets and the emerging markets. And one of the big aspects of any of the airlines is technology and most of these travel companies, as I've said for many times over a course of my career and on this podcast is that travel companies are not typically technology companies. OTAs are technology companies and one of the things that people expect from airlines is that they are very sophisticated and they're used of technology. They have to be. But oftentimes they're so focused on the operational side of their business. They have the technology layer but other companies come along like Hopper to introduce tools that travelers can really use whether it be trying to actually source pricing which is where Hopper got started. A great Canadian company but also a very much a global success story. And today we have Patrick Stedman who is the VP of disruption and the disruption product at HTS which is Hopper technology solution. So I'm thrilled to bring him into the conversation as we continue our airline series. Now don't forget we do post clips and highlights on our social channels as well so you can find more details there. But let's get into this conversation now with Patrick from Hopper so we can really understand the technology space and these products they offer and how consumer behavior is changing in 2026. So Patrick, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for joining us. - Hey Dan, thanks so much for having me. So we're very excited to be here. - Fantastic. I'm really keen to continue the conversation here on our airline series and to have Hopper as part of the conversation. I have a great respect for the company and I think people got a good sense from the introduction about your role in the conversation we're going to have today. But tell everyone where you are Patrick, where in the world are you and tell us a little bit about your role from your point of view. - Yes, so I'm in Chicago, Illinois. It's quite cold here. I just got back from Miami this past weekend. So it's been a little bit of an adjustment getting used to the cold weather again. But here I am. So yeah, I've been with Hopper for about five years. I oversee our disruption assistance for any reason, product at Hopper and Hopper technology solutions. And this is one of our key Fentech offerings that's available in the Hopper app across our HTS partners and travel banking portals and travel or provide us globally. - Fantastic. I've been a big fan of Hopper for many years. And I know some of the team based in Montreal have seen you guys at conferences. - Yes. - And one of the big developments, of course, with Hopper, when many people, and I've used Hopper a number of times for looking up flights. And I love the bunny and I love the whole branding. And so, but one of the things I'm really keen to bring you into this series is to discuss the B2B angle. 'Cause I know that's been such a focus for you. And when people talk about Hopper, they often talk about being a Fentech company, you know, a financial technology company, which is very different than other travel businesses and how you've grown and specifically your role. But just before we get into all of that, I love Chicago, all of our listeners are on based in Toronto, which is very much the Chicago of Canada. You know, we're saying that, yeah. The weather system's the same. We're both on the lake. We have a similar skyline. And we're actually just doing a series right now with Travel Zoo. And Chicago is one of the best bets destinations for 2026 for Canadians and Americans. So there you go. So you guys are on the back. - Yes, yes. That's amazing. It's a great city. I haven't worked with another visitor in this summer. Maybe not the one who turns much, but the summer is a great time to the year. - Yeah, yeah. I love the one who turns well. But it's a four season destination. Cool, the year in. - Yes. - Chicago. Tell everyone a little bit about Hopper. If you wouldn't mind, I think for any of our listeners that are not familiar with the company, tell us a little bit more about what Hopper is and what you guys do. - Yeah, for sure. So I think most people probably know us for the app, the running money, as you mentioned. And we still do have the app. It's a big part of our business. Always will be. But we also have Hopper Technology Solutions, which is our B2B division. And this is growing very quickly. It now comprises 90% of the Hopper business. Growing 50% year-over-year. And the core of the business is essentially distributing our Fentech and Silvery products that we've had such success with on the app to all of our partners. This includes airlines, bank portals, leading travel global providers. So we kind of span the network in terms of our distribution channels. - So this is the part that I think is really interesting is that with the Hopper app that I was so familiar with. And when you're looking to book a flight and it's helping one of the clever aspects of the technology is that there's a lot of complexity to airfares and how they're priced. And one of the things that Hopper was very intent on doing was to try to make sure that it was much easier for the consumer to understand and to be able to pick out the flight deals when the time was right. Like this is like my favorite part of the technology was like is this the right time to buy? - Yes. - You guys were so ahead of the curve on that that even some of the other meta-searchs like kayak and others have picked up on your leads to do something similar, to help the consumer for a change as opposed to working the background for the airlines to try and maximize yield and profit. - Yes, yes. So that is one of our most popular features for sure. And it also is kind of an example of how Hopper is a very customer obsessed and customer focused organization. You know, if we tell a customer to wait, don't book the flight right now because we think the price is going to drop. That goes a long way in terms of building trust and loyalty with the user. And that also extends over to our FinTech and Silvery products. So we have two core products. The first is cancel for any reason and the second is disruption assistance for any reason. Cancel for any reason, just what it sounds like. If you attach this in Silvery to your hotel or flight booking, you can cancel your flight or hotel for any reason without any documentation provided without having to speak to a customer service representative. And so I think that's a good example of how we kind of lean into that customer obsession as we scale. - Yeah, well, I think that's the really interesting thing for me is that what seemed to be the core value proposition was this taking away the complexity advocating on behalf of the consumer. And then ultimately, as you just explained, the idea of flexible products like that you all of a sudden could freeze pricing or the cancel for any reason or the flight disruption, all these things that unfortunately do happen. Our plans change and sometimes, you know, as a result of our decision making or the aircraft isn't ready to depart, any number of things can happen when we're traveling. So the idea of peace of mind for travelers is paramount and the travel industry and you guys have really capitalized on creating these flexible products. So the thing I wanted to go back to in regard to those two is your role because you introduced, you kind of introduced yourself, but one of the things I actually wanted to go back to was the idea of this VP of disruption. And, you know, what it is that you're your role. So tell us a little bit more about your role given that you guys are primarily offering these Fintech and Silvery products. - Yes. So I oversee disruption assistance for any reason, which is our second main Fintech and Silvery product. The way that the product works is if your flight's delayed or canceled on the day of travel, you can rebook yourself on any other airline for free. Alternatively, if you want to keep your disrupted itinerary, you can receive a 100% refund of your ticket and essentially fly for free. So it's really designed to get our customers to where they want to be whenever a major disruption that happens, which unfortunately these days happens more often than not. So it's designed to solve that problem essentially. - Cool. So let's get into a bit more on that with regards to the cost and exactly how it works because we have a global audience, we have many travel agents that listen to our program and obviously they're B2B and I want to understand the role in it for them to advocate purchasing this type of product for their clients. But clearly COVID was the very start of this podcast with the idea of what it travel look like post pandemic. And one of the things I always talk about with startups on our podcast is the need to solve a problem and that's what Hopper set out to do. And this is exactly an example of that is that there's a pain point that you alleviate by introducing a product that people buy and clearly love and there's a huge demand for it because not only do you offer it like the whole B2B side, this is the part that fascinates me, is the number of companies now that want to work with you to leverage your technology because people want it and it works. So tell us a little bit about how it actually works. So someone's booking a flight, how do they choose flight disruption, what are some of the costs involved? And yeah, ultimately what are the mechanics? - For sure. So if you're booking a flight in one of the channels where we offer our products, you can simply select it as an insularia to offer to them. the booking flow. It averages around 10% of the trip cost. And it's as simple as purchasing any other insulery while you're booking travel. And then to your point about the need for flexibility and the pandemic. So I think a lot of this actually started because of the COVID pandemic. Of course, during that time, varying a lot of uncertainty, people were very nervous to book flights in case they literally couldn't travel or in case the airline had to do a mass cancellation whenever the case is. But it turns out that people are always feeling anxious and uncertain about travel. And it's really emotional and expensive purchase for most people. So they want to make sure that they have that extra piece of mind and protection just in case things go wrong or in case planes change. And now clearly, there's many different types of travelers. There's leisure travelers. There's business travelers. And today there's this term that we don't-- none of us like called "bleazure." There's so many other better ways that we could refer to that. But many people, myself, today I'm flying to New York. I'm there for two days for a conference. I'm staying for the weekend. My wife is flying into town and we're going to the weekend in New York. I'm so looking forward to it. And it changes business travel because all of a sudden, now you've got a personal benefit to be away and to extend. And I think that has become the norm. So I think I'm in the majority there when you have business travel that you blend the two together, which is why-- but you-- nevertheless, you have business travel and you have leisure travel. And then also, too, generationally. Like this-- you guys were a real hit with Gen Z and a lot of the millennial consumers. I know when I was reading some of the Hopper stats, certainly most of the people are using the platform are under 30. But then you've got this huge market for premium customers. So yeah, tell us a little bit about ultimately, who values that flexibility. What do you see on the platform? Yeah, for sure. So we see pretty strong adoption across all sorts of demographics. It's true that in the Hopper app, for example, we have a younger Gen Z and a lot of new audience for leisure travelers. And then we also offer the Fintech products on more premium, custom-based as across our partner banking portals, such as capital and travel. And I think that it just kind of speaks to the fact that no matter what people want to add peace of mind to their trip and make sure that their travel goes smoothly. I will say we do see a very strong use case in the business travel segment that you mentioned. In that arena, we have a two-exit hatch rate of what we see on leisure. And I think the reason for that is basically the needs are different. If you're traveling for business, you want to make sure that you get to the meeting on time. You also want to make sure that you get home to your family after the trip is over. And so I think that that kind of segment makes sense for the Fintech products. I love that you're speaking the language right now. Just I think I interpreted you correctly. The two-ex attach. Is that mean that people are twice as likely to choose that? To purchase it. That's correct. I prefer two-ex-attach rate. I like that. That's a-- [LAUGHTER] That's good industry speak. And that's exactly what you need to be able to say to partners. So I just-- Yeah. Yeah. The other thing on this topic that I'm also keen to discuss with you when we think about the types of customers, especially business travelers, is that, you know, myself for sure, I rely a lot on my loyalty status to be able to have that flexibility. So you know, when I'm super elite with Air Canada, so Star Alliance, and I'm very loyal for all the reasons I know that if I have an issue with my travel, I got a direct phone number. I also have the ability to change my flights without any limited cost because the class of flights I book, I try and make sure they're all changeable. And even when I book a lower class, I'm like, I know I'm going to get a seat. I get my bag included. So for me, status is everything in travel. And I know it is for a lot of other business travelers. And so where I'm going with this is a question of loyalty. We touched on loyalty this season in the podcast. So we're finishing with airlines and glad to have you joining this. And we're going to continue our discussion next season about loyalty. So I'm keen to know from your vantage point, where flexibility fits in that. Like, do people value flexibility? I know I do, but is it, would people value that overpoints, for example? So what are you seeing in terms of the loyalty factor when it comes to these, the cancel for any reason, or change for any reason, type products? For sure. So I don't think it's necessarily an either or I think that both loyalty and flexibility are valued by travelers. I'm also in a status with an airline and I purchase the Fintech products for every trip that I take. And the reason is it just covers different needs, I think. With loyalty, like you said, there's a lot of other value propositions, such as lounge access, priority boarding, free luggage, whatever the case is. With the Fintech products, these just give you even more premium flexibility should things go wrong. So in your star alliance example, if you were to attach the disruption assistance for any reason product, if you get disrupted, you could rebook on non star alliance partners too. And so I think that that kind of additional flexibility is very valued by customers. Ah, that's interesting. I didn't know that because the last episode in this was with one world. So I think they'll be happy to-- Hi. [LAUGHTER] They'll be happy to hear that. So as far as how that ties it together, because the whole idea for these airline alliances, as our listeners heard last week, is very much the idea that if you're traveling within the group of brands, that they'll take care of you. They'll rebook you on another one-world partner, or a star alliance partner. And that's another big reason for me. So that's an interesting new development for me that I didn't realize, because I always get torn, because I love all the benefits of their Canada. But I also love flying quantists. I love flying cars, airways. And so for me, when I'm looking to go long distance, I'm like, man, so I have both. I lived in Australia and lived in the UK. So I have one world as well. But given I'm based in Toronto, I default obviously to star alliance. But that's-- I'm going to seriously consider that next time. You know, the goal of the product is really just to get our customers to their destination when something like this happens. And so the other thing is that there's an airline specific disruption event, and they're not flying any flights for whatever reason. That added flexibility to let the customer rebook on any airline helps them. And it also helps the airline actually reduce operational burden. So if there's a certain segment of customers who purchase the product, they are being taken care of via the product. And that helps the airline actually help their other customers who don't have the product. So that's kind of an important benefit from the airline perspective, too. We'll be right back. Dan Christian here from Travel Trends. If you're a travel advisor looking for the next big thing in group travel, then you need to know about WeRoad. WeRoad is a community-driven, small group travel brand that is designed for today's connection seeking traveler. Their secret-- about 90% of WeRoaders start solo and end up with a whole new crew of friends. These trips run in tight-knit groups and are led by one of over 4,000 trained travel coordinators whose entire mission it is is to spark connection from day one. WeRoad is built for travelers in their 20s, 30s and 40s who want same age, same language groups. And with over 300,000 travelers already on board, the demand is real. 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And the partnerships you have and the adoption of this in the industry, since with this series, we want to try and educate our audience, myself and our audience, that matter, and all the developments that are happening in the airline space, which is why I was so keen to have hopper as part of this, because even though the airlines themselves are massive business, businesses unto themselves, their focus is getting people where they need to go and operating their planes and many of them have become technology companies, but they're not purely a tech company whereas that's exactly what Hopper is. So you can work with an organization like that and that's been my experience working in the industry is that technology drives such a is such an essential driver of the travel industry but most travel companies are not technology companies. And so when we think about the companies that actually utilize this technology, give us a bit of an overview of, you know, Hopper technology solutions, who you guys power? Yeah, so Hopper technology solutions is live with dozens of partners globally, including some of the world's leading banks and airlines. So for example, we offer Fintech products on capital one travel. We power the Commonwealth Bank of Australia's entire travel portal. Here in the States, we're live with disruption assistance on frontier airlines. We have C-FAR on spirit airlines. So we partner with a variety of different riders globally. That's interesting. So there's a couple there that stand out to me, but one of the things I was, you know, the types of airlines that you partner with are the ones that are, what I take away from that, some of the more progressive in the industry that are like looking to continually address, you know, pain points with their customers. So, you know, customer satisfaction is incredibly important to drive loyalty. And then within that, you know, they're trying to maximize revenue as well by trying to increase as our friends in our Canada did, you know, moving away from miles and moving towards what your spend was, which was already the case. Anyway, you needed to match a certain spend level. But tell us what some of the reasons that you're seeing that success? Is it improved customer satisfaction? Is it increasing revenue? What are some of the reasons that those partners are choosing you and or expanding their partnership with you? Yeah, that's a great question. I think those are the two main reasons. So it's definitely improving customer satisfaction. Whenever a major disruption event occurs, it's obviously a very stressful situation for everyone involved. And I think the sooner that anyone can solve the problem, it reflects better on the brand itself, even if it's HGS sort of doing the rebooking on behalf of the customer. And then yeah, the second is definitely unlocking incremental revenue. These are high margin, you know, very popular in summary products that can help airlines unlock new revenue streams. Beyond those two, though, I think there is a couple of other additional benefits, one being the reduction in the operational burden on airlines, whenever customers choose to change their plans proactively via the C-Fart product or rebook themselves with the disruption product. That ultimately is a cost savings to our partners because it's one less customer that they have to take care of them that moment. The other thing is our integrations are very, very easy. So our products offer simply as an overlay on top of any existing processes that the airlines might have. And so it's a simple integration. It takes a matter of weeks, not months, to get the products up and running into the hands of their customers. Yeah, well, whenever I have these conversations, and I'm thinking about it as a marketer or someone in the travel industry and trying to make sure I ask all the questions that our listeners would benefit from most, the things always stand out to me as, you know, why this changes occurring and how you can benefit from it. And understanding some of the trends in the marketplace, hence obviously the name of our show. We interestingly, there's a direct connection between the creation of travel trends and having conversations about airlines because Sherpa was the platform that we were using for EVs and they had partnered with a lot of different airlines to offer this solution during COVID to help travelers understand where you could travel to. And we were utilizing that data to try and figure out where we should market what destinations were opening up. And so last week when I was talking to Roger Blackburn at one world, I was asking him some of the questions I really enjoy asking, which is around, you know, what you're seeing in different markets because, you know, given that we've got listeners in like 125 countries, although the majority are certainly half our audience are in the US, maybe 25% is in Canada, but then UK Australia. But we do have listeners all over the world. And I always want to make sure I bring them into it because, you know, whether it's our listeners in Colombia or in other parts of Europe, they're obviously keen to get an understanding of, is this an opportunity for them? And so I want to ask you about the markets themselves and where you're seeing the fastest adoption because we often talk about Asia and, you know, the Chinese market in particular as being, you know, ahead of the curve with super apps and payment platforms and those types of developments. Now, what from your vantage point, what markets do you see are the fastest and adopting this type of technology and these flexibility tools? Where are consumers responding most to this? If you wouldn't mind giving us a bit of an overview, I'm sure that would be really interesting for our listeners. Of course, so our Fintech products are actually live in 180 countries and regions and I'll highlight a few specific ones so they think it then particularly successful with them. We offer our Fintech products on SMCC in Japan. HTS also powers their entire travel booking portal. This is the largest credit card issue in Japan. And so it's pretty cool to see us expand into non-North American markets. We also power combat in Australia, their travel portal where we also offer Fintech products there. On the airlines side of things, we offer our C-Far product actually in Air Canada. So next time you're booking, you can make sure to purchase it. And we recently launched Fintech products in the Middle East with the Jazeera and Flyad deal. So it's really not one particular region that we're seeing more traction in. It's a kind of global thing. And I think that just speaks to the fundamental power of the products, which is to give our customers peace of mind. Everybody wants to feel safe and protected when they travel, regardless of where they are in the world. That's really interesting. So within that, knowing that it is truly global as well, it sounds like you've got even more countries covered than we have listeners at the moment. It's interesting to know. But when you think about the regions that are you're seeing the greatest adoption with, like you mentioned Japan there as a good example of all the places you're like, are you seeing just trending-wise in terms of region doesn't have to be a specific country. But are you seeing more adoption in Asia or Europe or North America? Like how does it vary by market? Yeah, I would say we are definitely starting to see a lot of traction in Europe, which is kind of cool to see. It's our next expanding growing market. And we're excited to see that. Yeah, Europe's an interesting one. I was asking Roger about that as well, because he's based in London and worked at British Airways for many years. And you've all of a sudden got these low-cost airlines. When you have them in the US as well, the ultra-low-cost airlines, we've been, unfortunately, been rather unsuccessful here in Canada, given the size of our market to have any truly successful low-cost airlines. When it comes to those customers, because I know like in Southwest and some of these companies, the way that they actually made money was if you wanted to bring a bag, like the price seemed incredibly reasonable until you actually, like there's an ongoing joke that it's a cost more to get the airport than to take some of these flights in Europe. And so, unless you can take the subway or the, you know, but when it comes to low-cost airlines, are you seeing opportunities there as well? Because I know they're so fixated on finding new revenue sources so that you can get the lowest-cost seat, but then you pay for everything else. Yeah, we see a lot of traction actually here. And I'll highlight the frontier partnership. Actually, is a great example of this. We launched disruption assistance on their direct channel, I think in August of this past year, tremendous success. If you actually just Google Frontier Disruption Assistance, you'll see that their customers are super excited about the product. And I think that is also a testament to the product market fit of it, right? In the last month when there were disruptions in MacriVan, as a result of the situation in Venezuela, Frontier flies so a lot of those destinations. And so, we were able to help their customers get out of the airports or get home on time. And so, I think it just speaks to the power of the products. What's really interesting there for me, as you highlight Frontier and some of those partnerships, is that when you have a low-cost airline that is so focused on trying to achieve a certain price, what I'm keen to know is what the market will bear in terms of what then people pay for these products. So, my question, I know this is financial technology, FinTech, and it's very much, I know it's not insurance, and that's an important classification, right? I know that much about the industry to know that FinTech is not insurance. One of our great partners is a Protect Group that's part of Nexseason. We've worked with Protect Group for, and they have a cancel for any reason product. So, I've become familiar with this category. But one of the things I wanted to ask you specifically was that, and I've seen a friend that had done a great keynote presentation talking about the fact that consumers overwhelmingly are willing to pay, you know, about 25% more when they see three different options. If they know that they're going to have peace of mind and flexibility, even though there's a 95% chance that their plans are not going to change, but in that unlikely 5%, they're willing to pay say 25% more. And I think, like, and this is where consumers, you know, they vote with their wallet, they make those decisions, and clearly this is something that they are saying that they definitely want and see benefit from. So, when you're pricing it, that's the part I'm keen to understand. This is a frame of reference for our listeners, and I'm assuming, like similar to insurance, you have to try and work out the odds of whether or not someone's going to actually cancel or be disrupted. So is there a rough idea of the percentage of the price that someone would expect to pay for the product itself? Yeah, for sure. So for both products, it's between 10 and 15% of the trip costs. And, you know, HGS was founded on the idea that we can leverage data. and predictive modeling to improve how people book travel. And so we've taken that same idea and applied it to the dynamic pricing of our Fintech products both to calculate the risk of someone using them of course, but also to calculate the probability of them attaching or purchasing the product. And so those are the two kind of main inputs to how we price. And again, our goal is to always add real value to customers and to get the product into the hands of as many customers as possible. So we make sure that we're trying to price them in a fair way always. Yeah, of course. I guess that's where when you've talked about the three different products because obviously there's cancel any reason disruption assistance and then also price freeze. And if I understand it correctly, this journey started with price freeze and then kind of expanded to the cancel for any reason and disruption assistance. Is that is that the sequence? Did I get that right? I think actually our cancel for any reason might have been first I don't recall which is exactly first, but the core of the app is the price prediction functionality. Like you mentioned at the top of the call where we tell our customers to book now because we think prices are going to go up or to hold off because they're going to go down. So like I think that was a really good example of us finding product market fit and working backwards from what customers really want, which in that instance is basically, you know, they're price sensitive. They want to make sure that they're getting the best flight cost that they can. And the disruption assistance and cancel for any reason products. It's the same thing. It's all about just finding the customer who wants that added piece of mind or protection. Now, understanding those three when we talked about the pricing, the roughly 10 or 15% is that that's for the canceling reason and disruption assistance is that the same for price free or price free is different. It's similar to that. Yeah. Got it. OK, cool. And the reason I wanted to ask is because knowing that you have those three products, which for anyone that is just coming into this conversation, learning about hopper, HTS, and the different Fintech products that you offer, hopefully that is now clear for everyone because what I also want to understand is what's next? And the world of flexibility. Because you guys were so ahead of your time with the pricing prediction model and introducing these services. Because I can think back to a skipped conference four or five years ago, right after the pandemic. And there was-- it was at a time when a hopper was being challenged by some of the other OTAs. Because in many ways, as the way I saw it and read it in the room, and I was like, they feared hopper as being a competitor. Obviously, you guys have worked as-- as it's evolved, been very complimentary. And you work within the whole B2B side of travel. But they were definitely concerned that hopper was going down the path of B2C and becoming an OTA. And so it was one of those things. I read it pretty clearly in the room that there was this concern that, wait a second, you're now going to compete against us. And so if anything to me, it highlights the fact that hopper was just that far ahead of their time. And I would say the market is only still catching up to the products you've introduced, which tells me that in 2026 and beyond, people are choosing these products now more than ever. So I actually also wanted to know of those three, which-- and I know you represent the disruption assistance. So I'm assuming that's got to be one of, if not the most important. So tell us which of those three actually is getting the most traction. And then tell us a little bit about where you're headed from here. For sure. So it is actually disruption assistance. And I'm biased, of course. But we are seeing a lot of traction with this, especially on the airline side of things. I think that with all the uncertainty in the world, as well as disruptions, it's really a win-win to create brand loyalty for their customers, reduced operational burden, and also create incremental revenue streams for them. So disruption assistance, for sure. I will say, hopper is never done innovating. So we actually just launched HGSC upgrades product where customers can did to upgrade their seat essentially, which also helps stop revenue leakage on the airline side of things if they have unsolved premium inventory. We're enabling the customers to bid on that to fill those seats and actually create revenue streams from it. Interesting. Interesting, because that is a space that there is a local company in Montreal that is very plus great. And plus grades started as a upgrade to business class and the founders and great story, him traveling and seeing all these empty business class seats. And I've got a number of colleagues because I used to work at points.com, a plus grade bot.com. And I'm very fascinated by that loyalty space. And we've got a great partner in loyalty status quo that sponsored our series this year. And my colleague, Aaron Murray, she worked at points. She knows plus grades. She knows that the loyalty space incredibly well. She worked at Air Miles. And it's going to be part of our focus next season as well. Because the loyalty space is so-- it's a massive industry unto itself. But one of the things that everyone wants, myself included, the first thing I do whenever I book a flight is I make sure I book a flight that I have an e-upgrade option. And I double checked it last night before getting on my flight today to see what the likelihood of me getting an upgrade is. So that makes total sense to me that like upgraded seats and giving airlines the abilities sell that unsold inventory. So tell us a little bit. When is that going to happen? Yeah, so we have partnerships live already. I will say I think that the need for this is going to become more and more important, especially as millennials build their wealth and prioritize comfortability, as you just mentioned, over sort of anything else. I think that we found in a recent survey that only 26% of millennials say they book the cheapest option on their most recent flight. And 40% said that they chose the most comfortable and convenient option. So I think as that generation matures, I think we're just going to see more and more opportunity for premium experiences. Well, for sure. And the millennial and Gen Z traveler, as we both know and has been highlighted in the media to start 2026, are more than ever prioritizing travel over home ownership, saving for retirement. This is a very different generation. And if anything, I'm like, I couldn't be more pleased to see that. They're making decisions to say, I'm not going to wait until I retire. They're seeing their parents. And this is like a massive change in consumer behavior. So my wife and I have twins that are 18, but first year university. And so you can see the change in behavior. And when we fly them, I daughter home, for her level of expectation. And also, many people have joked that this millennial generation is more than in the avocado toast, right? Than buying a house or like, which is totally unfair, completely unfair. I actually think they have their priorities straight. I feel like I'm just like, like every day to the fullest, like great. I love avocado toast. I love flying first class. I love like I love flexibility. So I think there, I think I was a generation ahead of my time. And because this, this, so I don't take any issue with the decisions they're making, including, including this. Yeah. And I think it's all about prioritizing experiences and not things. And I think that that's ultimately what I'm doing. And the else is, so I'll speak for myself. But that's how I kind of think about my discretionary spending. And it is also why people are purchasing the products at such a high rate, because they want to make sure that when they're spending that much money on something that they're actually getting the value out of it. And it gives them additional peace of mind. So yeah. The market that this generation is entering into is in the world of AI. You know, we had social media. If we've had that now for 20 years and really that whole idea of social, social commerce, it's still fundamentally important. But at the same time, every industry now is being disrupted by AI. That's why we have our AI summit that we've run the last two years to understand how AI is impacting the travel industry. And so I need to ask you about AI, especially given that Hopper is a technology company. And you guys have your prediction models and like risk scoring. So tell us how you are leveraging AI, especially in pricing, but also introducing these products or optimizing them. How have you guys built that in? What is in the background that's helping the consumer experience? For sure. So it is definitely the pricing of the fintech side of things. But I would also say on the customer service side of things, we're really going all in on this. So on fintech right now, if you tried to use the products in the app, there is an AI empowered agent who can actually do everything on your behalf. And we also just launched our HGS assist product, which is a Gen to AI for travel, regardless of the platform. So we can take, you know, we've been able to train our data on 10 years of customer service interactions from the Hopper app. And with powerful AI models powering that now, it creates a really interesting product for our customers. Sorry, Irlein and thank portal customers for this. We'll be right back. Today, 65% of travel queries trigger an AI overview. If your brand isn't showing up there, you're losing bookings. It's that simple. This is the new reality that propellate. The AI first digital marketing agency for travel helps brands master. Their entire focus is on delivering what matters. Performance bookings, not just clicks. They've done the research on how AI is changing everything from search to purchase. 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Amazon now, I wanted to my house today, like an hour. It's like, it's no next day, it's not sufficient anymore. And it couldn't be more relevant for travelers is that they expect, if something's been disrupted, we've all been there at the airport and the announcement comes on. And then people are rushing to the desk, picking up their phones, and it's a horrible feeling. And so, how do you, whether through AI or technology, make sure that someone doesn't, say, have to speak to someone? Because one of the things I've certainly seen is you instantly get re-booked. That's my, everyone tells you, and I'm asking this question for not only my education, but for all of our listeners out there, because I see this behavior is that when that flight gets canceled, they literally tell you that just wait to be informed. But still people flood to the desks and it's like, they're like, we can't help you. We don't have any more from me. And then I look at my phone and I'm like, oh, I've been re-booked. It's like, oh, that's a flight in an hour from another gate. It's just like all that stress for nothing. So tell me how that's the part I guess excites me about AI is the ability for the platform rather than a person to be able to quickly re-root you. For sure. So, our Fintech products do have a 98% self-serve automation rate. That means 98% of our customers who are trying to use the product are able to do so without human intervention. So, they can open the hopper app, for example. There's a completely self-serve tool both for the re-booking part, as well as the refund part. And the product is actually proactive. So, like, what happens in this situation is we proactively notify our customers, either via push notification, SMS, just letting them know that they're eligible to use the product and taking them directly into that exercise portal, where they can use the self-serve tools themselves. So, I think it's a really, to your point, it's all about ease of use in these very stressful moments. And the products were designed to do that whenever we are creating them. Got it. And then when people are in that situation of distress, they often take to social media. And I saw something that I really want our listeners to know about. And I've been meaning to mention it in the introduction to a podcast. But it's related to car rentals than an error. But it's still Jason Prisley, famous for Beverly Hills 9-2-0. Over the holidays, I looked at my phone. And there was a picture of Jason Prisley, which I wasn't expecting to see. And it was like him looking angry. And as kids were in the background, he was there with like a like a luggage cart. And what I quickly kind of realized had happened, I've read I've read it because I was just like it was like suggested for me. I'm like, and the the post amounts to the fact that he had arrived. I think it was at it was in California. But anyway, he had arrived at I think as long Beach airport and I'd gone to the Hertz and they didn't have a car for him. And he was and he's like, I've been a gold member for 20 years. And it was like, Hertz sucks. Never again. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like I've been on the receiving end in the travel industry of upset customers. And sometimes things happen and you have to sort them out. And like that's that's the priority. And you customers are going off like that. But to me, I was like, all I felt for was that poor social media manager who is now all of a sudden having to go to their boss at Hertz and say, what do I do with this? We've Jason Prisley has mad at us. And I think we've lost a customer. And so so social media is still very relevant. So in the situations where someone is wound up, are you seeing this? This is my question for you because I I I I I would hope that having this type of product would decrease the likelihood that you're going to have raging guests going off on social media because that's their you know, that's their only mode of airing their frustration. And and we saw a lot of that less and less. So that was like, I think he's a bit out of date with doing that. But nevertheless, that's his his right to do it. But yeah, tell us when it comes to social media and the and like has that introducing these tools, has it decreased the likelihood of that? Has that ever come up with any of your partners? I don't know if it's decreased the likelihood. I will say though that when we offer these products, we do see, you know, positive brand table effect by introducing them. You know, so let's say the situation of a customer who's flight has been canceled and they opt to get the 100% refund of their ticket and travel for free. That's a customer that that airline has probably just made for life. And we do see that in our repeat attach rate to so the percentage of customers who are eligible to use the product to purchase it again, and their percentage of 84%. So customer satisfaction is super high. And that also reflects well on the airline whenever their customers purchase the Fintech products. Right? Because they're just thinking about the customer is just thinking about it from the first perspective of did I get to my destination on time? Not how it happened, but did it happen? Yeah, yeah. Well, and here's another one that based on that, like this that sometimes consumers don't have a full understanding of who's responsible and who's to blame, especially when you lose your bag. That's another, you know, situation that unfortunately occurs when you're traveling. Let's talk about some of the misconceptions around these flexibility products and understanding who's responsible. How does that work? And once you've bought a hopper product, who's then responsible in those situations? Yeah, so it is on hopper because, you know, we are the ones that are telling a customer that will rebook you if something happens, if you do your flight is delayed or whatever. I think that misconceptions wise, I think that sometimes people confuse the products with insurance, as you mentioned before, and they're really not designed to replace travel insurance. They're designed to exist alongside of it. And they serve very different needs in the customer journey. So in your luggage example, you know, it's possible that you would have an insurance policy that covers lost bags, disruption assistance, and see if I do not do that. They give our customers flexibility to change your plans or to get to their destination if they get disrupted. So I think that there's a world in which all these products exist alongside of each other because they are targeted to solve very specific things for the customer. That's an important one. The travel insurance. I'm glad, like, that's because that's why it took me a moment to wrap my head around. It was like, wait a second, this isn't travel insurance because most people do buy travel insurance. I always make sure I have medical insurance, for example, misperceptions of people. What are some of the other ones that stand out to you that you hear that it would be worth clarifying now for our listeners to know the difference between what the airlines are, what hop when where hopper steps in. For sure. I think another one is that the flexibility products only matter when there's like a really bad disruption event. It is true that when we have things like the government shutdown last year, or the crowd strike incident a couple of years ago, where 50% of global flights were halted in one day. It's true that the products definitely add additional value in those situations, but it's also true that on an everyday basis, carriers face a variety of challenges, including bad weather, which is nobody's fault. Whenever there is a storm here out of O'Hare, the customer can use the products and it adds value, even though it's just isolated to that one geographic location. So I think that that's a big one. And then lastly, I would say on the airline side of things, sometimes we hear that this could increase cost in operational burden. And that's really not the case. Disruption assistance in particular is designed to work seamlessly alongside the existing aeropsis process that the airline has. And it simply has been overlay to help customers get to their destination on time. Well, my son is training to become a pilot and he's in his first first university. So he loves, like I've been, I've spent many years at the airport as he's been an avid plane spotter and many far listeners obviously know that from some of my introductions, especially to the series, and why I was keen to do this. And I, you know, I'm often have him in mind too, because when he's thinking about this role and the importance of getting people safely to their destination, and then there's all, you know, there's the aircraft, there's the crew, there's, and then there's all this technology wrapped around it and then partners. The, I'm always trying to be mindful of because if most people put everything on the airline, so I'm, I think it's important we clarified that aspect of it so that, you know, this now sits with Hopper and you guys are sit over and above because people have chosen that option. As we, exactly, as we go forward though, and I say that because what I don't want him to have to deal with is those angry customers, that sometimes you, you know, you can see at the check-in desk and he's, he's watched no shortage of shows to see people getting enraged at the airport. And for whatever reason, it seems to be the case that whatever's going on in your life, it seems to come out when you travel. Like you take it out on people, you're just like, you know, the stress that you have in life, like it comes out in the car rental person or the flight desk or like, or it comes in the, I've seen it since the beginning of my role in travel, people calling into the call center and taking it out on a travel agent who had no role or responsibility in what happened, but they need to vent, right? And so I want this to, like, if customers have this flexibility as an expectation going forward, like it'll decrease the likelihood. Like I've had situations where I, you know, I'm with an easy jet where I am already landing late and it's already rebooking on the next flight. And I'm just like, oh, like I'm just like, so you don't have to go through that emotional role. So I'm really hoping my son, my son, as he enters the workforce, that this is the new world that he enters into. So, so let's, let's, for sure. So let's, let's talk a little bit about where we're headed. And obviously we're hoppers headed and where you see airlines in 2026 and beyond. Yeah. I think you nailed it. Like the future of travel is really demand for flexibility as kind of a baseline expectation. You know, customers do have higher expectations that things go well in a modern world. Where we have personalized experiences, digital first technology. So I think that that's definitely one of the big things. The other thing is personalization across the journey. I think that, you know, when, even when they're booking a flight, customers are expected to see an offer that's relevant to them and that will ultimately achieve urban line with their travel goals. And I think that that's where our AI pricing comes in and making sure that we're offering the appropriate sort of flexibility option to the traveler based on based on their needs. Yeah. Yeah. What the one thing that stands out to me there, you know, when we were, this personalization, because it's one of the things that we've talked about in the travel industry for so long. But yet, you know, when you check in for your flight, you still have to pick like Ilar window or like, you said, no, me. And I do see some of these great AI tools that you can voice book a flight within like 90 seconds. And just like, you know, get some options. And that to me excites me and I, it's getting partly because of my status. And air Canada increasing their improving the customer flow and retaining more information and being able to, but it's nowhere near where I think it should be just for all our friends in air Canada. You guys are, I'm not letting you know if you're not there yet, but you're moving in the right direction. I like to know that my bag is loaded on a plane. I like to get a little message. That makes me feel good. I appreciate that. But personalization, you know, as from my perspective, we're still nowhere near where I think we should be. I think airports have a role to play in that like because there's so many different people to collect our information and we pass through different checkpoints. How do you guys look at personalization in particular? Like, and you're a role in that because clearly, you know, you play one role. But it's a very important one and also personalization. So, yeah, how is Hopper looking at that for your customers? Yeah, so I think it's really focused on sort of the service inside of things, which with our HGSS system product, we have a lot of data on our customers and our focus is really understanding how we can use that data to improve their experience if things do go wrong. So, you know, for example, I mentioned that we've been proactive notifications to our customers if there's a delay or a cancellation. I think that there's a cool opportunity to provide them with rebooking options that are, you know, let's call it. If you're at O'Hare, you don't want to move all the way from Conqueror C to B. You want to make sure that there's a gate that is readily available so you can just get on that first slide out. So, I think that, you know, better understanding the context of the customer is where we're focused on the service side. Those two more questions I want to ask you because I've gone so much I want to cover with you. And I know one of the things that I really love to do when we're planning our next season is our listeners. No, we're going into season seven of our podcast. We're finishing season six with our airline series. And we always do a team get together and we like, you know, there's Zach, our producer and Catherine who you met that does all of our guesting and marketing. Eugen is our marketing coordinator and Melanie does all of our partnerships. Melissa does all our social media. So, like, we've got a great team behind travel trends and I really want to make sure that not only will you factor in like the team's input, but all of our listeners input based on this season. So, we're running a contest right now for all of our listeners to be able to tell us what they really enjoyed about season six. If it's this conversation right here with Patrick from Hopper, let us know that because we want to figure out based on your feedback so we can decide what topics we want to cover or what guests. And so, where I'm going with this is I often approach this as if we were starting our next season from scratch as opposed to building on what we already have. And I think about this with airlines. So, like, given that the pain points have emerged from the system that is in place, which creates opportunities for companies like Hopper, which is. But at the same time, if we were to step back, like imagine you guys actually ran the airline and like there was a hopper airline. So, if you could redesign the airline experience, no legacy rules, no old fair classes, tell us a little bit about what the ideal system would look like for the traveler. Yeah, I think it would be traveler centric and personalized as we talked about it. So, instead of having fair classes that don't necessarily provide the customer with a level of flexibility they want or expect, it should be offered all a cart. Having free changes, refundable options, included disruption assistance in the fair, things like that. I think that that's the number one thing. I also think that the expectation that flexibility should be proactive as opposed to reactive. So, like in your example, when you're at the airport and get the notification that you're disrupted, having someone reach out to you and say that you can rebook yourself for free, I think is kind of like what I would envision as sort of like the best big class experience. And then lastly, I think that it should be like flexibility should be perceived as a growth engine for airlines. You know, rather than a roading revenue, it can create sustainable high margin and solar re revenue that also creates these positive experiences for the customers. And I think those three things would be a win in combination if I were to redo it all. Yeah, well, and there's a lot I can add to this. I won't now because I don't want to participate. But I feel quite strongly on biometrics myself and the need for so I'm very comfortable with being able to be scanned in. And like for me, I'm like, that's the fastest way to get through the airport. And so I actually see it on that's one of the things I want to see changed is on the is I've realized it's not the airlines I'm frustrated with it's airports. And it's like my son is favorite part of the travel. I got a kick on this every time whenever traveling as a family his favorite experiences the airport. And I'm like, it's a little bit of the part that I just want to get through and get to my destinations as fast as possible. But anyway, that's that's where I still see there's a lot of room for innovation. But the other thing I wanted to ask you given that we have a lot of airlines listening to this series and it being the first airline series that we have done on travel trends in our you know six seasons I wanted to ask you what recommendations you'd have for them because so many people that work in the airline space are dealing with legacy systems. And they also have this often internal inertia like there's always it's so hard to get things done or to change and that's why they get disrupted themselves by low cost carriers and like and these up starts because they're so beholden to the systems they've created. And I'm sure you see that all the time when you're working with other people that they're going wait a second opera you guys move fast and it's like you have to if your technology company like that's your competitive advantage. So what would your advice be to airlines listening to this that want to innovate faster and be much more progressive for their customers similar to the culture at hopper yeah for sure I think first you don't have to reinvent everything internally I think using partners like HTS to strategically partner to solve a particular product for problem for their customers is actually a winning strategy. You know you don't have to overhaul core systems instead you can take HTS is disruption assistance product and layer it on top of your existing solutions they're not designed to replace them they're just a more premium experience for customers who purchase it. And then also not necessarily focusing on innovating every single part of the customer journey instead I think choosing the moments that really matter so you know when you do experience a disruption creating products and experiences that actually solve the problem for the customer and make it easier for them that's way more important than trying to do every little part of the customer journey and innovating around it. Yeah so I think that those are the big things and just empowering the teams to iterate on them so when we launch using data to collect information on customer feedback and showing that these products are real additional value to their customers is super important to. There's so much to continue in this conversation I'm you know I'm glad you've joined us we've covered a lot I'm sure our listeners might have additional questions which you can post in the comments or reach out to me anytime Dan at traveltranspodcast.com because if there's something we haven't covered you want to make sure that we address next time or next season especially with having someone like you Patrick that knows this space so well and your role at Hopper have been so keen to have Hopper on the podcast so I can't thank you enough for for joining us for this conversation but let's make sure that we can have a lot of time to talk about this. Let's make sure that any of our B2B partners are nowhere to find out more information to work with you guys over at HTS and also if you would mind too just for consumers that are listening to this because our B2C audiences really increasing now which I'm excited about partly because of our travel zoo series we've been focusing on destinations so welcoming them into the conversation as well to know how they can make sure that they choose this on their next trip. So on the airlines or the partner side of things you can go to htshopper.com there's a link you can click to reach out to one of us I'm also available on LinkedIn and sure there'll be a link to this in the podcast but happy to answer questions for sure and then on the customer side of things download the app that's our showcase and. we have our Fentech products there and try them out. - Fantastic, well Patrick, thank you so much for joining us. I wish you and the team great success in 2026 and beyond and I look forward to keeping in touch. And I know you guys were on our event spotlight episode from Focusrite and yeah, it's great to have this opportunity to speak with you guys and I look forward to further collaboration. So thank you so much. - Same here, thanks for having me Dan, really appreciate it. - Thanks so much for joining us on our latest episode of Travel Trends and the second episode in our Aviation series. I hope you enjoyed the conversation today with Patrick Stedman, the VP of Disruption at Hopper. I also just wanted to acknowledge the team at Hayes Luggage for sponsoring this Aviation series and the contest that we have running at the moment. So make sure that you do post a highlight from season six on any of your social channels and tag @TravelTrendsPodcast and we'll be announcing one winner each week of a $1,500 Astros Luggage set from our friends over at Hayes. If you're interested in learning more about Hayes, check out h-e-y-s.com. If you're interested in luggage of any of their travel accessories, I travel with Hayes, you'll see me at the airport and I hope to see many of you with your Hayes luggage as well, especially the three winners of this contest. And don't forget, we do post clips and highlights on our social channels, LinkedIn, YouTube and Instagram. So you can see clips from the conversation we had with Patrick here today. Thanks again to the team at Hopper for being available for this series. It was really great to have you as part of it. And I look forward to continuing our conversations on airlines and aviation as we move into season seven and seeing many of your feedback and suggestions for where we should go in season seven and season eight in 2026. Thanks again for joining us and until next week, safe travels. (soft music)