Why Fashion, Media and Entertainment Are Converging

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Darnell represents totemic cultural figures, including Nobel Peace Prize laureate Malala Yusufzai and Vogue's Edward N. Info, as well as Giselle Bunchan and Michaela Cole. The breath of his client roster reflects Darnell's thesis that captivating, culturally impactful people can come from anywhere. My definition of talent isn't just an actor and a musician and an athlete, it's also a well-known politician or an incredible activist or a rock star CEO or someone in fashion, an artist, etc. I want to be able to represent all of those people. This week on the B.O.F. podcast, I sit down with Darnell to talk about the future of cultural industries like fashion, media and entertainment and why they are becoming more interconnected than ever before. Here's Darnell Strong on the B.O.F. podcast. Hi Darnell, how are you? I am well. How are you and Rob? I'm so excited that we can have this conversation because you and I have started to get to know each other in the last few years and our paths just keep intersecting more and more and in a way that's an indication of the topic for today's conversation, which is how culture just writ large is converging and you're such an important and interesting player in the intersections of all of these cultural spheres. But before we do all of that, we need to get to know your backstory first and the backstory you have kind of fascinating because you started your career not anything to do in the talent world but within the world of politics and you studied political science and college, talked to me a little bit about the early days of Darnell and what you were excited and passionate about. It's interesting because I think some politicians think of themselves as talent. So it's probably an early testing ground for me to the talent business. But I grew up in San Jose, California in the Bay Area in the heart of the Silicon Valley and I was a 90s kid. So I love politics. It was a big political nerd when I grew up on like MTV and music videos, a deep love of like 90s hip-hop and TV and film. I think it was just like the golden age of pop culture and even politics because you know, Bill Clinton was a young US president and was like playing the saxophone in our semial hall and doing MTV for him. So it was just this really interesting time and my interests were both politics and pop culture and they both stayed with me. And remember, there was a magazine that came out called George Magazine. It was JFK Junior's magazine and it was sent out to purposely put together those two worlds and I was like, oh, this is what my brain is, you know, we combine on that. And so I remember the first cover was Cindy Crawford in 95, she's the biggest model of the world dressed as a high fashion George Washington shot by her brits and it all just kind of made sense to me. So, you know, as you mentioned, I went on to college in Florida, at Florida A&M University, which is historically black college and studied political science because the route into politics seemed much more understandable into the route into entertainment and media. I just didn't know how one even got into those worlds. I understood it as a consumer. I consumed a lot of the content but didn't understand how one could ever work in those spaces and politics was kind of everywhere. So it was a political science major was meant to go off to law school, but deferred a year and got this amazing fellowship in President Clinton's office. He had just left the White House and moved to Harlem and was building his post-presidency work. So just had this amazing experience and at that time growing up as a kid politically, President Clinton was just someone that I always admired. So the idea of at 22 years old I would be working in his office. It didn't seem like a reality but had an amazing opportunity to help on fact checking and research on his autobiography that he was working on and supporting the fundraising team that was building his presidential library. I mean, he's such a totemic figure. Not just in politics but in culture writ large and obviously there was a lot of controversy around him when he was leaving the White House. What did you learn from him? There's so many things. I never ended up going to law school or business school like I had planned because I felt like the years that I worked for President Clinton was a master's degree in so many different things. One was the way that people connect with him and the way that he listens to people and really can feel their pain, their emotions, understanding what their need is and again being in the representation business now, those skills come in handy. How do you really read and see and understand people and help deliver what it is that they want? He's also one of the most brilliant minds that I've ever been around. The voracious reader, a brain like an encyclopedia, a work ethic like I hadn't seen before and in a different iteration of my time working with him after the fellowship. I worked on the Democratic Convention in Boston and O4 and John Kerry's presidential campaign but I ended up coming back to work for Clinton full time as one of his head schedulers and I traveled the world with him and that's really what kind of opened up my perspective of how these worlds converge together because he was a former president. His networks were yes world leaders and political leaders but it was also titans of industries and head of the entertainment world and celebrities and CEOs and everything in between and being in that scheduling role. Anyone who was spending meaningful time with him had to deal with me one way or another so the kind of nerd brain in me. I just was like having a lot of fun meeting really interesting people. It's like Bob Eiger calls one day and another person calls another day and I'm just like wow, these are all folks that I've looked up to for a very long time so it was very formative. That sounds absolutely insane at that age to have that kind of experience and you know anyone who's spent any time around those kind of figures or even in their wake you just see what happens right like just doors open. There's so much magic that happens in those elite circles right and I guess that's one of the things I want to talk to you about today because as a black man you said you know Texas A&M was a historically black college. What was it like moving in those kinds of elite circles back then and we're talking like quite a long time ago now the world is a different place today. My fellowship with Bill Clinton was 20 years ago this summer so I was 22 years old growing up you know San Jose is a diverse city. I've been around all races, ethnicities, religions but I've never been around levels of wealth and power and influence like I was once I got into those levels of the political world and there are moments where it's just complete imposter syndrome and you're like what am I doing here I just don't want to embarrass myself I just don't want to look like a fool and then there was moments too of kind of like calm and like well I'm here for a reason there's something that I must have done right even if I don't know what that is at this point just embrace and lean into the experience and opportunity and treat everyone like they're a normal person because they are and that was always my point of view is that I don't want to you know fan out on people or think someone is better than another because they have a certain level of power or wealth or platform but at the end of the day when you really connect and bond with people it's the same way you connect and bond with a random stranger that you might meet at a bar on the subway we're all people at its core and I've always tried to remember that but there were definitely these moments of complete freak out of do I even belong in these spaces so tell me then Darnell you're in this really incredible position exposed to all these world leaders titans of industry you're in this like great why make the switch to talent agency how did that happen so I traveled the world with President Clinton for about three years on the scheduling side of things and that was a great experience and I met a lot of amazing people but it is quite daunting it is a brutal brutal schedule to keep up with both managing all of it from the scheduling perspective but also the physical toll on the travel and so I moved over into the fundraising side of things to the Clinton Foundation which was great because I got to use the relationships that I was able to make from the scheduling side to help build new fundraising relationships and I was starting to spend more time in LA because we had a lot of donors in LA and those donors were the big weeks in LA which happened to be you know the heads of the agencies heads of the studios media moguls and I got very close with some folks at CAA and I was known to shake some people down from money to fundraise and I think that skill resembled a quality skill to have in an agent so I ended up after a number of conversations with them moved over in 2010 so that's almost 14 years ago and had kind of a really interesting nine-year experience while I was there the first couple of years was working in the foundation because I had this background in politics and social impact and my way in was okay great work with with a number of our amazing. clients on helping them figure out what they wanted to do in the social impact space. And at that time, the president of the United States was President Obama, who I had met when he was a state senator at the Democratic Convention back in 2004, and had maintained a close relationship with his team and was on the entertainment council. So help play a role of being a go-between as our clients wanted to have a relationship with President Obama's administration. And President Obama, who did this so well, leveraging the power of storytelling and pop culture to help push the narrative and the agenda of the things that he was trying to get done as president. So those worlds kind of came together. Again, another example of convergence between politics and culture. And the plan was always to become an agent. So I did that for a couple of years. But while working with a number of different talent, I studied every aspect of their business, not just the philanthropic side, which came easy to me, but I wanted to know how Duane Wade's basketball contracts worked and his endorsements worked. If I was working with someone else, I wanted to know every actor or a filmmaker, how did it all work, how did it all come together, and just learned all the different aspects of the agency. And it kind of hit me. I was like, wow, these agencies really do so many different things. But there was also kind of an epiphany moment where, especially there, where I was, is that it's also very siloed out. There aren't people who kind of work across all of these different areas. And because I had just been coming from a world where I was seeing all these convergences happen, I was like, well, there could be an interesting route. If I could play a role where I can sign all types of people, 'cause my definition of talent isn't just an actor and a musician and an athlete, it's also a well-known politician or an incredible activist or a rock star CEO or someone in fashion and artist, et cetera. And I was like, I want to be able to represent all of those people. - Well, that's an unusual entry point into the agency world. Because usually people like kind of lore as you start in the mail room, right? - Right. Which I was like too far in my career at that point. I was like, I'm not going into the mail room. I'm not going to be anybody's assistant. I was like, if I'm coming over, I need to come over as an executive or an agent or this isn't going to work. And shout out to all of my colleagues and people who are going through the mail room grind. It is a challenge. But, you know, there is a special experience that comes from that as well. But I think as the business grows and evolves, you can't just grow people through the traditional system. You've got to bring people in from the outside world that has different perspectives. And so I was fortunate that I was able to kind of enter that way. Or else we wouldn't be having this conversation. - Right, absolutely. We have all sorts of listeners all around the world who might not even know what a talent agency does. You know, you meet someone at a dinner party who's never heard of UTA or CAA or any of these agencies. Like how do you explain what you actually do? - It's a great question. And my mom probably still doesn't know what I do. And I've explained it a hundred times. But at the end of the day, a lot of people ask me this question, like politics and entertainment seems so different. How did you kind of thread that needle? And I said, well, when you're working in politics, right? If you're the actual public servant, the politician, you're there to be of service of your community, of your constituents. And you're there to use the resources that you have access to to make sure that they thrive and they're successful. When you're a staffer to a political person, it's the same type of thing. You want to make sure that you're helping to make that public servant the best that they can be so they can utilize those resources. It is very similar as an agent on the talent side. It's like you're finding talent and people that you believe in. And you're using all of your resources and connections and relationships to help support them to grow their platform to the largest possible places. I also have been looking at the similarities recently between agencies and the venture world as well, right? If you're a venture capitalist, it's a similar type of thing. You have access to a set of knowledge and resources, and you're looking for talented founders to invest in and using those resources to help them grow and build their businesses in the ways that they want to see it. So in the service business, you're really there to help find the opportunities that help them build to where they want to build. But I think traditionally agents have been seen and known as being more transactional. And I consider myself a builder, someone who's creative minded. I am not as creative as our clients are, but understand creativity and really want to be a partner strategically with them on building a roadmap of thinking about the kind of 360 view of what the world looks like for them from a business perspective. And then utilizing the many resources we have as an agency to be able to expand and help them grow into those spaces. We'll be right back with more on the B.O.F. podcast. With the VentureX Business Card from Capital One, you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase. The Capital One VentureX Business Card. Terms apply, see CapitalOne.com for details. So after nine years at CAA and kind of establishing and developing, sort of translating your skills as a political staffer into a talent agent, you decided to make kind of a big move. And in the kind of pantheon of agencies in Hollywood, if I understand correctly, the big guns, the really big guns are CAA and WME. And UTA's is kind of disruptive upstart that's kind of gaining ground. And what motivated you to make the switch from like one of the big established, I mean, it's not like UTA is not established, but one of the dominant agencies to kind of UTA. - I think the landscape of agencies was changing very quickly throughout my nine years at CAA. And UTA, which is one of the big three agencies, I was always watching what they were doing 'cause they're making so many interesting moves. And what I loved about UTA was how they kind of moved a bit different, super entrepreneurial, super innovative, always the first to the new emerging businesses. They were the first ones to take on digital. When people thought social media and digital influences or all those things were just not serious, they saw that those platforms are very serious and that the stars that were emerging from those platforms are gonna become real players. And so that's why 'til this day, UTA has the biggest digital business out of any of the agencies and they were the first to it. As the podcasting world has boomed, UTA is the first into the audio space before anyone else was doing it. Venture, really building businesses around clients and having just a great core group of incredible artists that they represented as writers and actors and musicians. And all of that was continuing to grow and grow and grow and scale. And I always found that it was, you know, an interesting place. And as I was making the decision to leave CAA, the siloed out nature of the business of the agency world traditionally and I felt it very much so when I was there, was always challenging for me. I never wanted to be put in a box. Everyone's like, oh, Darnel's the political guy, right? Or he's the foundation guy, right? And I was like, well, sure, but I'm also the fashion guy and the art guy and the talent guy and the tech guy. I was like, I have relationships in all of those worlds and wanna sign the most interesting people from all of those worlds. And it always was a challenge, I think, making it make sense. Though I had a decent amount of latitude, it just never felt like I was in a position to truly spread my wings. And so when I left, I was thinking about a number of different opportunities. Do I even wanna be an agent in the first place? I remember, I sat with Jeremy Zimmer and Jay Sirre. So Jeremy's the CEO of UTA and Jay, who's the vice chairman now. And both of whom were like, what is it that you wanna do? And I said, you know what? I wanna represent the most interesting and influential people across culture. And I don't care if they come from TV and film or if they come from sports and music or if they come from art or fashion or if there's some interesting people from politics or social impact or health and wellness and food, like all of those major buckets of culture. I wanna represent the most interesting and influential and transformative people atop of each one of those buckets. And then really drill down with them to build a strategic plan in a business. And thinking about who are the ones who have the interest, the audience, the engagement, to expand their platforms and verticals. So developing content strategy. What do you wanna do in TV, film, books, podcasts? What do you wanna do differently with brand partnerships? Thinking about live events and experiential opportunities that we can create and own and build venture opportunities, consumer products. All of those different things of how do we build like real media companies and businesses around our clients and focus in on those people where previously I was kind of in the volume business where you have so many clients. And it's just very hard to be proactive. You feel very reactive on a day-to-day basis. It's creatively stifling because you don't have the head space to actually think and ideate on behalf of your clients. And so basically created a system where we can have less clients but make a bigger impact and hopefully grow bigger businesses. And so that's what I had pitched to them. And they were very supportive and have been since I've been there. But the conversation that I had when I was thinking about structuring the types of clients that I wanted to work with is, I remember I was at Art Basel in 2018 and I had lunch with my old friend Virgil Ableau. And so Virgil and I had known each other, which he met in 2005. So this is before he was the Virgil that everyone would come to know. We had a mutual friend who was Virgil's college roommate and Virgil was living in Chicago at the time and he would come to New York all the time. We'd hang out and we became buds. And then obviously he just kind of ascended to just astronomical heights. And he and I would always stay in touch over the years We sat it. our Basel and I told him I was like this is what I'm thinking and he was like you know what this is what you should do he's like you should set up this division he's like you should be representing like people like me people who are multi-hyphenates people who understand that there are no kind of walls between these roles of culture and want to build businesses and create communities around all of that so we had this great kind of back and forth and it got my mind racing in a way that only conversations with Virgil could do and I decided to go to UTA and we set up the business in that way and it's been four and a half years and we've had some great success and we have amazing clients and you know it wasn't until 2020 that Virgil and I finally started to work together and we were you know kind of really cooking up some amazing projects and I'd get off a Zoom with Virgil and I would just go for a walk because I had just so much energy pent up from he just do these kind of creative dumps and yeah it was he's just an amazing person who's not only shaped the way that I look at clients that I want to represent and the way that we do our business but also will just kind of remain a creative and inspirational force for the rest of my life. Yeah what I mean I was also obviously fortunate to get to know Virgil pretty early on he really laid out a vision for you and it's amazing to see how really actualized and realized that vision that he you guys discussed back at Art Basel and perhaps what would be interesting to do now is to kind of make it all more concrete. So probably one of your clients that lots of people who listen to this podcast know is Edward and Enfold who you know has been a figure in the fashion industry now for many decades but in terms of a talent managed by an agency like UTA that was like a new phenomenon right like I don't know if Anna Winter or Glenda Bailey or any of these other magazine editors had talent agents. Talk to me a little bit about how you started working with Edward and you know the strategy that the two of you laid out together and how you went about accomplishing it. Again going back to this idea of the evolving definition of talent. I had known of Edward's work from years ago but you know there was this amazing Washington Post profile on him that I read in 2018 and it really just kind of put together all of his work and genius over his 30-year career in fashion in a way where I was like this guy is so talented so creative so smart and as someone that I would like to work with because I think if we work together there's so much more that he can do and by the way he would accomplishment whether with me or without me but I think that he and I have created this incredible working relationship and bond but I just think that he is a creative genius and beyond the creativity I just look at the work that he's done at British Vogue. Him being chosen for the role was historic and you know I think unexpected to some people and I think he kind of brought a perspective of I'm going to bring my creative talent and genius with me I'm going to bring my network of amazing people with me both colleagues that he brought in to work with or his you know massive fashion talent celebrity music network of amazing people that he's built over the years and then also bring his worldview into that perspective as well which is Ghanaian immigrant and growing up in a very diverse part of London and seeing so many cultures and ethnicities and shapes and sizes of people and that's always stayed with him and there's this myth in every business that we face it in Hollywood all the time too that this idea of diversity or inclusion or representation isn't something that can sell globally right it's a it's a nice thing from a moral conversation but the business case is challenging and I love that he challenged that myth and proved it wrong because I think people thought especially in fashion that if you go representative or inclusive or diverse that means in your magazine like British Vogue which is aspirational and luxury that you have to go down market in order to do that and he was like no no no we will show that we can create a magazine that makes so many more people feel included that keeps the same level if not a higher level of aspiration more beautiful creativity and luxury you worked at McKenzie you've got a business mind you know I'm not an economics professor but if you grow your customer base and they're more bought into what it is that you're doing the business is going to grow in scale and that's exactly what happened and you know beyond the business growing and creating a cultural relevance of that magazine hadn't seen and maybe ever I think that he's done such an incredible job of transforming not only the fashion journalism but I think the fashion industry in general because if you look at catwalks and runways and fashion campaigns and what they look like now versus before he took over it's very clear that he's had a major major impact but as his agent as a person helping to manage his career like what role do you play in the background what are the things that you're encouraging him to do or the kinds of partnerships or initiatives that you are presenting to someone like Edward so they go beyond being just a fashion editor it is all about how do you continue to grow the platform and reach more and more people how do you engage a larger audience and so the fashion audience is very familiar with Edward but our goal was to make sure that people outside of the fashion world people in tech people in entertainment and media who may not have known him as a household name understood who he is and how his point of view and his creative vision can touch multiple different things in areas and I think one of the big ideas that we had was getting Edward to put out his book last year a visible man because I was like you know storytelling is so powerful it is the thing that shapes hearts and minds that can move people and he has such an amazing story and he hadn't really told it in the full way and him putting those words down and into the book and then going on the tour and and really getting the word on a story and also traveling with him during that time and seeing what the rooms look like of who was coming out to see him you know I remember he launched the book at an event at the South Bank Center in London and you have a 75 year old posh white man sitting next to a you know 20 year old south London fashion student and everything in between and that's who he represents it's just this kind of large diaspora of people and so I think the book kind of continued to expand him into different areas which is a big part of the strategy there are a lot of other things to do from partnerships and other things also working within the confines of what he can and cannot do because he does have a day job right so it is finding that balance of being impactful when the moments come and I think the book is a great example of that so when we think about people like Edward you kind of come from the fashion world and then in a way transcend fashion because Edward's not just a fashion figure now he's a cultural figure or we think about someone like Farrell who's come from the world of music but he's now transcends music he's become a wider cultural figure how do you see this convergence playing out going forward like there's been so much movement and change around it in the last few years you know the last time I think you and I saw each other in person was at Farrell's Louis Vuitton show like that felt like an inflection point it felt like something shifted there where do you think this is all going I think that that shows kind of a culmination of a lot of things that have been brewing you know and to take it back to Virgil for a second right I think Virgil was really the first to kind of break down those doors but you know Virgil was a designer he obviously had off-white empires before that and touched so many different worlds from DJing to art but his appointment at Farrell's Louis Vuitton in 2018 was such a seismic shift I think that was really the start of all of these things that we've seen happen over the last number of years and I think Farrell who talks about this and talks about Virgil as an inspiration you know has taken that torch and is continuing to take it to the next level and that show was a culmination of all of those worlds you know you you look in I think the other thing too is when I was at that show and I was looking around and I was seeing Jay-Z and Beyonce and I was seeing Reed and I was seeing LeBron James and I was seeing all of these amazing successful artists entrepreneurs athletes it was also a celebration of black culture and how black culture drives the overall culture and in this instance it's obviously benefiting Louis Vuitton and LVMH but you know it is a recognition that it is that culture that is very marketable and instead of it being taken in a lot of ways how we can be involved in that in that process and and bring people into the table and you know hopefully too I think from there there are more things in luxury in fashion and beauty that are owned by the culture and not necessarily by other places but I think we're hopefully moving towards that but yes there is something that is happening even I think for LVMH is a great example of it but even you're seeing it with sports in fashion you know obviously LVMH is going to be a platinum sponsor of the Olympics you have sports leagues and teams now hiring creative director as many of them have come from fashion or or or Crystal Palace just hired a creative director becoming the first of the Premier League team so to do it you know you got Ronnie Feig from Kiff who's the creative director of the New York mix now you know you're seeing more of these things happen and the reason why is because this convergence of culture the most exciting and impactful things that are happening not just from like a content or consumer perspective but even from a business perspective like where the real magic and where the heat is happening is in these collaborations is in these partnerships and so you know from a business perspective you see that happening happening, I think more and more people are trying to wrap their heads around it. 12 years ago, when I was early on as an agent and I looked around and saw how all of these worlds were siloed out, I was like, no, our clients want to be doing more. They're expanding into doing more things. Why wouldn't we change the way that we agent? And so, you know, I think as you look at the marketplace, both in fashion and entertainment and media, everything is moving at such a fast rate. And if you're doing the job the same way you did 10 years ago, you're going to get left behind. And so I think the future of culture is convergence, which we're seeing now, but I think it's just the beginning of it. I think the next 10 years is going to be fascinating. I think the future of my job of agenting is less transactional and more strategic, bigger swings, figuring out ways to collaborate, how do you pull your networks together and provide the best resources for our talent to be able to grow and expand and, you know, it's a very fun time. To what extent, Darnell, do you think that this convergence has been accelerated by social media, Instagram in particular? Like, I think about all of these cultural spheres. And before you'd have to read like sports illustrated, Rolling Stone, Vogue, all of these cultural spheres had their own media universe, and what Instagram has done is it's brought it all into the same place. So like, you don't even have to be like a die hard music fan to know who Rosalia is because you might have first come to know Rosalia because of her incredible fashion looks. And so like Instagram seems to be like the super highway where all of these cultural worlds are colliding and mixing and coming together and creating this very unique moment. Absolutely. I think Instagram has kind of scaled it at such a rapid rate, but I think it started with YouTube. If you go back 15 years ago, I remember I gave a talk, I think it was in 2012 or 2013 and people were wondering, how do we break into the entertainment industry? And I was just talking about how technology is changing where, you know, before just how you mentioned those magazines and publications, like on the entertainment side, it was like the studios and networks, they're the gatekeepers of who can have a show on TV or who can have a movie made and who's going to be famous and who's not going to be famous. And what YouTube did was kind of democratize distribution. So you could have a random filmmaker who's sitting in their home in Iowa who's very talented but would probably never break into Hollywood in the right light who can start putting out their own short films and building their own community and building their own audience. And then as that built more and more, they've created a fever pitch that now instead of you wanting to go to Hollywood and see if they'll, you know, knock on their door, they're coming to knock on your door. Social media has just democratized the distribution of discovery. So we saw it with YouTube and then Instagram just made it so much easier, more digestible and beautiful because it started off with photos which we all look to look at and then short form video. And now, you know, I talk to like fashion bloggers and influencers sometimes who come from places that you would expect before because now they're able to see, oh, what are the trends going on in Tokyo? What are the trends going on in Korea? What are the trends that are going on in South Africa where the trends, you're able to see it all in one place now where before it was all in its own pockets or you had to find it through the gatekeepers of the major media companies. So I think that's made it interesting and exciting and more accessible to people. So don't know for all of the people listening out there who want to have someone like you manage their career, who see themselves as a potential talent. What do you look for now? You and your colleagues at UTA because obviously you can't represent anyone, but what makes a great potential talent in 2023? It's hard to kind of give exact detail, you know, it's kind of a feeling that you have, right? It's where, I mean, some people are just undeniable. It's like, at this point in my career, you know, I would like to represent some of the biggest names who have great platforms. I think because so many of the way the agent has been done in the past, it's like, oh great, bread and butter right now is making movies and your point agent is a film agent, then where are the ones who's running the team, kind of incentivize it, make sure that you're making as many movies as possible. And yes, sure, if you want to do some of that other stuff, that's fine. What I loved about UTA is that it has always been about collaboration and how do you expand clients and, you know, where I was before, it was like very much driven by the talent agents. And so, you know, the clients that I'm looking for are ones that have a global appeal that have an audience, that have an engagement that are kind of transformative in a certain way. I remember when I started representing Michaela Cole, she's just someone who, you look at Michaela, well, when you watch her work and you're like, whoever created this is a genius. And I think she's a generation defining talent as an actress and as a writer and as a producer. But the fashion world loves her because, you know, she has a creative edge about her that's so interesting that the fashion world is always embraced. It's the reason why she was co-chair of the Met Gala this year. But she's someone that I think has that thing and working with a great supporter of strategic team is able to kind of scale and grow into more areas when that desire is there. So, but yeah, it's hard to describe exactly what it is, but I do think it is people who are really challenging culture that have a talent that is really broadening the way that people creatively view the world. And whether that is coming from being a filmmaker or being a designer, people who are extending and pushing the conversation, I think in the same way that Edward pushed the conversation around diversity and inclusion and business, but also was giving us unbelievably creative and smart looks that those two worlds coming together, what's your purpose, what drives you? It's more than just the business, it has to be about a larger impact for me. The way I think audiences and like wider communities out there engage with these kinds of people is so now rooted in connecting with them in a deeper way than just being like a fan. That watches from the outside. Like social media has also created this like level of intimacy between talent and the people who follow them, who aspire to be like them, who respect them as individuals and as human beings. And that's more connected to purpose than it is to simply having connecting with someone who's famous. I look down the list of the clients that I represent, and even if they're not, I represent Malala, who the world knows her as an activist and is in social impact, so I think people expect her to have purpose, but when you're representing talent who comes from TV or film or from music or from fashion, I think the through line for everyone, whether it be Edward, whether it be someone like Carly Claus, who is so fascinating in her own right, who kind of came up as a model off the heels of the supers and then the jazels of the world, and then Carly was like the big model of her generation, and it was right at the cusp of the kind of Instagram growth. And so you have models who are being discovered in other areas, whether that be from social media platforms, whether that be because they come from famous families or whatever it is, they became, she was able to kind of grow following and also understand the traditional way of being a model. And then it was very early on cared about technology and coding and looked at the landscape and said, well, if the future of business and the economy isn't tech, and 85% of the people who work in tech are men, then what does that mean for women? And so, you know, kind of inspiring people through that. So, you know, there's always another thing that I think really is the driver. Well, luckily, I'm very grateful that we've had a lot of these talents featured on BOF at some stage and take part at BOF voices. So for those of you interested in learning more about some of the people that Darnell has been working with, we have incredible talks by Malala and Virgil and Carly Claus and Edward, all historically who've been part of our universe. And Darnell, thank you so much for talking to us about, you know, your personal journey and how you ended up doing what you're doing. I agree with you. I think the next 10 years, as culture continues to converge on a global level, it's going to be really fascinating. And it seems like there's going to be tons of opportunity for you as you continue to build out this new division or not so new division at UTA. Well, thank you for having me and thank you for the work that you've been doing and Ron, because I think BOF has been on the forefront of highlighting these voices and telling these stories, like you said. And we look forward to doing more stuff together and I just appreciate the time today. Amazing. Have a lovely evening over in Los Angeles and hope to cross paths with you soon. Enjoy your holiday. You deserve it. Thank you so much. Yeah, for everyone listening, I'm going to be off on holiday for a bit soon. No weekly briefing from me, but we've pre-banked some podcast episodes to keep you all connected. The BOF podcast is edited and produced by Emma Clark and Eric Bria in the BOF studio team.