Why Everyone's Obsessed with Wicker (And What It Says About Us)

Welcome to messy liberation. Let's get started. Welcome back. Welcome. Welcome back to our regularly scheduled programming. Yeah. Yeah. It's been a minute. We had our everything is political series going for like two weeks or two months I mean now. That's cool. Yeah. Which is what's lovely. We love the series and we love the space, justness that it gave us for the summer. But now we're back to our weekly recording schedule and here we are. We're here. We're here. We match too. Are you going back again? It's black and white theme today. We were going to talk about what's I said to you, which is honestly kind of surprising because I'm surprised you didn't send it to me. I don't know if you had seen it yet, but the preview, okay, of course you had. I mean, there's no way I know something smuddy before you do, but we were going to talk about Wicker, the new movie that has at least threads abuzz because it is about a woman who gets reeled by a man made of Wicker. Yeah. Yeah. And it's based on a short story from a long time ago that had already I guess been previously turned into a stage production, which is very interesting. That's interesting. That's interesting. I know, right? They have like a, like both the stage productions I saw. It's like this, like a literal like not a human playing the Wicker man. It's like a, almost like a scarecrow and then the whole thing. So it's been, it was from like 2008, something like that that it's been turned into a musical in Westend, I think two different times, most recently, maybe 2020. And now they're making it into a movie with Olivia Coleman. And I'm, it's bizarre and cool and interesting. And I was very curious when I saw the preview because I'm like, if anyone loves smuddy stuff it's you. So I want to hear what your thoughts are. Yeah. I saw the trailer last week and I was like just the most unhinged thing I've ever seen. But it looked, it looks delightful, first of all. It looks like one of those like, almost like a dark comedy kind of vibe to it. And it's all over books to Graham and book talk because all the like girlies and people who read like monster romance and creature romance and all the supernatural stuff. Like they're just like going feral for it. And honestly, I can't blame them. First of all, it's Alexander Skarsgard. So you know who's underneath the suit, so it feels like just watching Alexander Skarsgard in Skarsgard in wicker suit, which is basically what it is. I'm assuming anyway, that's how they produced it. He was in true blood was, I mean, he's one of the many Skarsgards that are out there, you know, in the cinema world. Yeah. I'm interested to see it. I don't know that I'll see it in theaters. Like I'm very particular about how much money I spend on entertainment. And so like, if it's a movie, I'm going to watch in the theater, then it has to like, it has to warrant a theater experience in terms of the level of the screen, the sound, like, I feel like it could be based on just the reaction to the trailer. I feel like the theater experience could be very much an experience. I feel like it's going to be full of women and maybe gay men, but probably mostly women who are just going to be howling and cackling. And I just, I can only imagine the reaction because if it's anything like the reaction I'm seeing online to the trailer, I just think it could potentially be a rip roaring good time in the theater of people just dying with as he appears and all of it. Yeah. I mean, it's, first of all, it's got a great lineup of actors, right in it. It's Olivia Coleman, Alexander Skarsgard, Peter Dinklage, just really phenomenal actors who are so good at their craft and are used to playing interesting roles like all three of them have had, I think in their, like, resume of cinema, just really interesting roles that they've played and that they're known for. And so, just a lot of range within those three alone. I haven't read this short story, but they, I definitely have book, bookstagram, girlies that I'm online friends with that we're in a discord server together who, who have already read this short story, just to kind of get a better idea of what it is. And I mean, and obviously, I think it, the moral of the story, it's a parable, obviously, right. And so, there's a deeper meaning to it than just like, oh, this one is getting railed by over. I want to get to that in a minute, but yeah, I think on the railed part first, that's the fun part. That's the fun part to talk about. So yeah, so there's more to it than just than just that, but it does look very, it does look very delightful. What was your first impression of it? I saw somebody had posted the preview and I watched the whole preview and my reaction was probably like a lot of people where I was like, oh, I love you cause I knew nothing of the short story. And I really knew nothing about what I was getting into other than I had just sort of saw there's this preview. So I'm like, let me click play and watch this. And I thought, oh, my love will be a Coleman. So that was my first thought. Oh, my love will be a Coleman. What's this? I love, that should be interesting. And then like, the little people, all the tittering issues walking through town and, and then I see Peter Dean Glitch. And I'm like, he's at Peter Dean Glitch. This is, this is great. It's looking like a great cast. And then all of a sudden I see him, I could tell it was like about her being sort of this, you know, in the time it's set as set very far in the, whatever, I guess Elizabeth and let's say kind of times. I don't know exactly what time it was, but you know at a time where a woman of her age was obviously like, put out to pasture, right? And so it's like, you can see all the, oh, she'll never find anyone. Oh, this poor, lonely old woman. Oh, whatever. And her being sort of sick of it and going to this like warlock. I don't know. It's not a witch. Whatever. Oh, he's a basket maker, but I thought he had a sort of, but how does he actually come to, okay, I guess I have to see the whole thing figure out how he comes to life because I mean, he's not human, but he comes to life well enough to take care of her. So he's not just a, a movable basket man. He's a, like, living basket man anyway. So the guy makes her man. And so then I'm like, oh, well, this is strange. Okay. So I guess it's got a little bit of fantasy and you know, I don't love fantasy. So I'm kind of, that I'm sorry to get a little turn up. I'm like, oh, and then I see that she's like getting plowed by Mr. Vasket man. I'm like, well, now this is interesting. And it started to become very, it became very humorous. I did think splinters. Obviously, I think most of us probably would, but I was like, okay, I could see it's meant to be funny. And I as a woman of a certain age myself, I was like intrigued because I do like what I feel like there is some social commentary there around women of a certain age and all of that. So our vibrancy and desires and passion and also reaction from society and all that. So I was surprised that I was sort of interested in seeing this movie that seems at first seem kind of quaint and delightful based just on the cast and all of that. And then turned into something completely differently thought and looked hilarious. And what's really kept me most excited is just, I mean, the threads commentary is like next level good. The jokes are never ending and so wonderful and not in a mean way of like, oh, this looks no dumb, like panning it kind of way. But in like, in just the like, it feels like that's everyone's like excited and they're making jokes. But in a way that feels like, and you know, I'm totally going to see it kind of feel like that. I don't know. I really love the community. It's building around it. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. There's no shortage of jokes. It's about the premise, not about the movie, right? So I've seen a lot of like whisker baskets are on clearance at like home goods or something of people are like posting pictures like looking for my next husband or like fashion. It would be a huge missed opportunity if Ikea doesn't release a spring 27 indoor outdoor wicker chair called the scars guard with, you know, the little thing over the a and scars card. I'm like, oh, that would so great. There are some really great, like if you just want to have a fun time, go search wicker on threads right now, because it's so good. Yeah. You would just, you'll laugh for hours for sure. And I'm imagining. So of course, you know, this is just me as like somebody who my, you know, we've talked about it. My romance reading is tame. And it's more like love stories, rom coms, but not like getting real. So this is like outside of my normal comfort zone. I think maybe because it's so ludicrous and silly, plus like this extra layer of commentary, I'm kind of excited. But I'm curious to somebody, I'm assuming this is like, not so out there for the spaces you hang out in with the like, no, it's not, it's not really like a lot of us probably could have predicted this at some point or another, because there's, uh, there's like creature. First of all, it's, it's, it's this magical realism, right, that's present in this movie. So it's kind of taken this concept of like a fairy tale and making it even more supernatural than fairy tales already are, right? Because usually in fairy tales, you have a fairy godmother where you have some kind of magical element. And so it's taking this magical element and using it in a way that we don't really see which feels fresh and creative and fun. And I think that's why a lot of people who aren't even into, you know, smuddy romance or whatever you want to call it are excited about it because it does feel fresh and it feels original, even though it's based on a church story that was written a long time ago. So there's that. But then also I think, um, one of the reasons why no one is in the book reader romance from Anthosini, dark romance, shadow daddy, whatever you want to call it, there's so many terms, there's so much language, right, and some of it is condescending and some of it isn't, but like the reason why people in those communities are like so excited about it and aren't even like batting in eyes because like, there's a reason people turn to those romances, those types of romance stories in the first place and it's because men in general like they kind of continue to watch short. And so and not that they aren't men that are trying their own, don't speak to the not all men people. I don't want to call it that, right? But I do want to be like honest about like my perspective on the issue. And so it is all men until it's not all men, you know? They continue to fall short. And that is generally the premise of the entire story, how this supernatural weird-ass wicker husband that this woman marries and has an incredibly erotic relationship with gets the other woman in the village so like hyped up because they're like, whoa, your man who isn't even real treats you like that. And that's so far from how my husband treats me that it becomes an issue for the women in the village because there's jealousy. Then it becomes an issue for the men because they're like, well, you're rallying our wives up and now like they're expecting things of us that we don't want to commit to and we don't want to do. Like there's literally a scene in the trailer. I don't know if you caught this where there's a wedding between a young couple and he's literally putting like a chain around her neck, like a collar, a metal collar around her neck. And after the wedding or after they get married, she's in the village and she's showing it off. And she's like, oh, it belonged to my mother, right? And so like they're literally taking this idea of how marriage to marriage in a patriarchal society to a man shackles a woman to him. Like it's very, very literal. Like it's not just this metaphorical idea like she's literally wearing this metal collar. And so and then you have Olivia Coleman's character who marries this guy. She has no metal collar on. She's still free to work because in the beginning of the trailer, she comes to town to sell her fish. She's a future woman. She has her own job. She's single. She is middle-aged by all appearances, which is unheard of for that time. And so she continues to live in this sense of independence while being like adored and railed within an inch of her life. They break the bet. Literally break the bet. Like he puts her through the mattress. Yeah, like he has this this fake man who's like so completely devoted to her while she's still able to live the life that she wants. And that becomes a problem for the people in the village. Well, and this is so now we're getting to where the reason I wanted to talk with you about this or why I sent this as a possible topic for today was one because I just think it's fun. So there's the fun part of it. And I love all of that. And I love the way that like they are getting endless amounts of free publicity just because it's outlandish because it's wild because it's fun because it's different. All those things you're saying. Like they're getting all this publicity just from that. And that's huge. I mean, you can't buy what they're getting right now. So that's interesting in and of itself. But the bigger piece around because it got me thinking about all this stuff around smut around romance and how romance is a category of books and even more sort of like a smuddy quote unquote romance. They're reached it's reaching like a level of interest and and financial investment from people that I don't know that it's ever seen, even in the Harlequin days and and I think in those days it was treated differently that it is now too. And I just think the evolution of of this type of content around like romance and and quote unquote women's literature or whatever the you know that has previously I like you said I think a bit derogatory like there's been some really condescending ways people have looked at it. But I think some of that is changing. I mean, I think there's obviously still some of that. But I think just the way it's women are more unabashedly purchasing these books, sharing these books, talking about these books like just so publicly. I mean, there are women creating bookstores that only sell this kind of book. Like less than amount from us. Yeah, I mean, it's a it's a it's a whole thing that has just been gaining momentum momentum. And I thought it'd be interesting to talk about why like what is it about that? What is it about those kinds of books and why now? And and I because I feel like this movie sort of speaks to a bit of that too. I think it's coming out at a perfect sort of time where it will be received in a way that I don't think it would have been received the same five years ago. And I and I think the why of that is interesting. And so I mean fun. I think it speaks to where we are both in progress, but also threat to progress. And I'm curious like kind of as you were as you're thinking about it and and what it might be saying about us as a society. I'm not just the movie, but you know, the movie and just kind of romance and specifically even like the smuddy or the romance. And to your point, women, these books being written through a women's perspective, a woman's viewpoint where it is not just about like Olivia Coleman finding some, you know, hot 50 year old man who she gets to go through the traditional experience of love with, but that it's it's challenging those norms. Yeah, I think it's, I mean, I don't know what the statistics are, what the numbers are, but I think it's also really interesting that this explosion of like quote unquote smuddy romance is happening while there's also like what appears to be like an explosion of like conservatism, not just in the US, but across the world. And it's like, how do those things go hand in hand? Right. Because even those women are unsatisfied in their marriages as much as they might tell these like, tradwife principles and these family values and how important it is to like submit to your husband or whatever. Like I literally saw something on Instagram the other day. I didn't do a whole lot of research on it. So I'm not going to like, I don't want to spend much time talking about it, but like where this like conservative, tradwife influencer was like selling this like coaching program and how women can better submit to their husbands. And then she went somewhere she was on a stage somewhere and said that women shouldn't have the right to vote. Like it's like you are taking women's money to teach them how to do these things to like indoctrinate them into these beliefs. Meanwhile, you're fucking working. Right. Exactly. What you're doing is work. Just as a quick aside, one of the biggest books of the summer was yesterday. I don't know if you read it or not. It doesn't matter. Lots of people have a lot of thoughts on it. And we aren't going to, this is not specifically about this. However, it is coming at the same time. It's a book, it's fiction and it's following this woman who is doing the tradwife content. It's a very interesting book. It's an unreliable narrator. A lot of people I think just don't like unreliable narrators, which might be part of the reason people have some problems with it. I think there's also some problems because of the very white lens that goes through all of it. But it's interesting that that book was also a huge phenomenon on the summer where it's a book sort of pushing back and away and kind of shining the light on the hypocrisy of the tradwife movement for that very same reason you're talking about. So I just think it's interesting that so many of the things that are kind of rising in the zeitgeist are what you're saying. Like they're they're pushing these against some of the things that are also as the conservatism is rising. There's these responses to it and they're not seen as alternative or outsider or like they're mainstream. Yeah. Yeah. And there's it takes a lot of mental gymnastics, right? For someone to be in that space to be like, oh, this is how a woman should act, but then also still kind of doing their own thing. And so like that's not a coincidence. Like those things are interrelated. And so no matter how much they might say they like are happy with their lives or this is you know, God's plan for their marriage or their life or their children or their family or whatever the fuck they want to call it. Like they obviously aren't because like these books offer an escape, right? You know, on an individual level, like the level of escape and the level of fantasy that you buy into is is is personal, right? Like I read a lot of fantasy fanfic. I read a lot of smuddy fanfic. I read a lot of dark horror fanfic. And so it's a fantasy. Reading is always an escape. It's always an opportunity to turn one other world how deep you get into it and how much those lines blur for you, right? Is an individual personal thing. But the fact that it's so popular now, like those things that mean something that's not like that doesn't exist within a vacuum. And it's like, oh, people just love to read that. No, that's not a neutral fact. Like it mean something. And so right, right. And like I know like Narsmith, like she, I don't know if you know who she is, but like she had been like creating like tradwife type content for years now. And she was the model. And she's married to a model. And he's like more men or something. They live out Utah or Arizona or somewhere. And she creates all this content about like taking three days to make cinnamon toast crunch for her kids from scratch. And it's like, okay, who's filming you? Like you're getting money. I mean, she just went on the call her daddy podcast. Let's talk about how I'm like, oh, I'm not a tradwife. I never said I was a tradwife. Like whatever it was. And so it's like, okay, but you know, it was okay for you to like let yourself be labeled as a tradwife when it was like in the context of like a Trump campaign for presidency, conservative family values, but now it's like, but now you want to come and like assert your independence to talk about how you've been working this whole time. And it's like, it's a bait and switch for women. It's like selling women selling everyday women something that they will never really be able to attain to because the regular, regular mom down the street who has three kids, she can't take fucking three days to make cinnamon toast crunch from scratch for her kids because it's healthier. And because she loves that, you You know what I mean? It's so much bullshit. And so this idea that women are buying into these stories of perfect men who are not necessarily human, but perfectly in 100% devoted partners who are 100% devoted, that's not a coincidence. That's happening for a reason. Well, just for some statistics, because I looked them up really quickly, the last numbers that I could find were that the revenue from May of 22 to May of 2023, romance as a category had 52% growth in that period. And that's now several years old. And I don't think it's gotten any smaller. It's probably bigger. And it's now 1.44 billion in revenue a year, this category of books. And it is by far the one of all category books, it has the biggest increases. And I think some of it is. You're correctly, I think. What's that? And it has historically always had like the biggest increases. And like one of the most popular genres. For sure, but I think it's the growth that it's been experiencing right now is like it's been rapid and high. And I think, so I think part of it is also just most romance. They're not all, because I saw one of the book publishers, their social media person got in trouble for saying that not all romance books have to have a happy ending and there were as many people who are like, no, that's exactly what they have to have. And then there's others who think it doesn't. Anyway, there was drama there. But on the whole romance is a category that tends to have a happy ending. And I think when you are living in such uncertain and dire times, I think it's easy to want to go for a book that is going to have that has that promise of things work out in the end and there's a happy ending versus reading thrillers or poor books or things like that. So that piece makes sense. But I also think the other piece that's really interesting is like you were saying it's this backlash or reaction to patriarchy and racism and all the things we're living through capitalism where it's like stripping away of rights while at the same time he did rivalry. When we're having people questioning whether marriage equality needs to exist and then you've got heated rivalry being like so huge and not clearly the levels of success it has has to go beyond just the people who you would associate as being people who would be interested in that content like it's not just the LGBTQ community. It's not just the crazy liberals or whatever, right? Like it's reaching across to people because I think every like so many people we're living in a time when 30% of people are making decisions for the other 70% are vehemently opposed to those decisions and I feel like this kind of content is like we're all just grasping for something that shows us some hope that our stories do matter and that there is still like a world that could exist where our rights aren't all gone and where men aren't all pieces of shit and you know that kind of thing, right? Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I'm I'm curious. I probably will read the short story at some point. I think it's interesting too that it like just going back to like this fairy tale aesthetic of the movie because when the trailer for started and she was walking through the village, I feel like I was kind of watching an older version of Beauty and the Beast because like it just reminded me of the opening scene of Bell like walking through the village and the townspeople of like friendly but also kind of condescending to her because it's like oh she's so strange like she always has to suck in a book and she's always reading and women should have been reading you know like it puts ideas in their heads and like you know that whole opening sequence where where she you know the townspeople are like singing and she's going through and getting like food and supplies and stuff and so it reminded me of that oh this idea that like fairy tales in general like have always served as parables as a way to share a lesson to teach rather than to to teach in a way that feels entertaining the entertainment part of it is like what sucks you in right it's a part that grabs your attention and so and I think I feel that way about almost everything that is meant to entertain in this world that there's there's a there's a lesson to be learned from the things that we consider entertainment and whether or not that lesson or that parable is something that is values aligned is something like each individual person has to decide for themselves but like like when I see trailers for like military movies I feel like this is propaganda the reason it feels like propaganda to me is because it feels pro nationalist right which is different from patriotism that's a different a completely different ideology from patriotism there might be some overlap but it's not the same thing and for people who don't notice know this like in Hollywood if you're going to make a movie about the military the military has to sign off on it like they have a contract they have contracts they have to have someone from I think the DOJ look over it and make notes on the script right and in exchange Hollywood gets to use actual military equipment like that's the deal that they have and so that's why I'm like when I watch trailers from where trade movies even some superhero movies I'm just like this is propaganda because the military has an invested interest they've literally put their hands in the making and producing of this piece of entertainment and so when I when I watch more Marvel movies whenever that happens I'm like this is not a lesson for me right now like I shut that part I actively shut that part of have to shut that part of my brain off because I know that what I am being shown is not an accurate depiction well one it's some first of what's a fucking movie like it's never going to be really accurate but also like there's an intent behind it that's beyond just pure entertainment and I don't think I don't think some people look at entertainment that way and they definitely don't I mean that's media literacy yeah we've talked about it a million times and media literacy is not just media in the sense of the press the you know free press that we think of when we think about like the first amendment media means all forms of media that you consume which includes art which includes you know right movies all of it ads you need media literacy we need media literacy to consume anything also yeah because the what media literacy teaches you is exactly what you're saying which is well one to make a conscious choice about am I going to watch this through the critical lens or am I allowing myself to shut that off a bit so that I can just have this as pure scapism whatever and that's okay as long as you're making a conscious decision I think most people are watching it through that without making that a conscious choice they're just doing it passively and then what happens when you do that is you're not doing the part that is what was the artist trying to communicate what other forces were at play here what is this reflecting that right who paid for it what is it reflecting or not showing me about society what intentional choices were made about whose stories are told who's aren't all of that is stuff that we should be doing with everything we're consuming unless we are consciously saying like you said I know this Marvel movie I could ask myself all those questions and it will be a different experience of viewing than if I say in this instant instance I'm going to watch this shutting that off but knowing those things are a play here so I'm not taking it face value I'm just allowing myself to say this is entertainment but I'm also then not going to buy into some of the stuff that they're clearly trying to get me to buy into but we don't do that and I think reading is important because it's same thing you're saying like art whether whatever you may or may not think about what you call art individually as a person right some people think it has to be something super elevated or whatever but the truth is anything that's created is art right even if they like you said a social media post that is a form of art it is a creation and all creation is through an artist's voice and and perceptions and experience and there's always an intentionality behind it and it's important for us to think about what is that intentionality and then also to collectively about like what does the art of the moment what is it saying what is it responding to why is this happening which is what you know this conversation around wicker and I'm just I'm always interested I find it interesting to watch what are the things that start to become more resonant become that take a hold that get popular attention in times of joy in times of like prosperity or in our case you know right now times of uncertainty times of challenge times of scarcity what are the stories that do get told and what do people respond to and I think it's very interesting to me to see this this level of response to something like wicker really says I think a lot going back to what you said the beginning about how women are feeling about our participation in society our our how much we're wanted in society how we are cared for or not cared for what we're willing to tolerate and growing unwilling to tolerate and I think that's very interesting to notice yeah yeah yeah I mean like you said our this I think art is both like a reflection of the context that we're in right like that our current times our current events like you said um and and I also think like art can be like the catalyst for future art right for future changing for what the future could potentially look like, right? Because it should inspire conversations, right? The subject matter of those conversations can vary how it's talked about, can vary, but like, it should walk away, or you should walk away, like asking questions, right? Like, what was that about? Like, what did that mean? Like, why did they make that choice? Like, what does that represent? Why that actor and not this actor? Why that color and not this color, right? And so being able to engage with like different forms of art in that way, I think, is such a necessary skill that, as you mentioned, when people look at artistic endeavors as just entertainment, they're not engaging in that skill. They're just like, I'm just here. My eyes are on it, the brain is off. That really, that actually really saddens me because like, for multiple reasons, obviously, like the critical, the lack of critical thinking is like a sad commentary on the state of our world, but also just like engaging with various forms of art is such a place of curiosity. And like, people who don't actively, who aren't actively curious about the world around them, like, I actually feel quite sorry for them. Like, I don't, I can't wrap my head around the idea that like, people aren't, that there are people out there who just aren't curious about things. Well, I would propose to you and I think you'll agree, Tyna, I have a feeling. Is the reason you can't fathom that is because you don't hold as many privileged identities as I think many of the people who live that way hold. I think the more privileged identities you hold, the easier it is for you to not have to be curious and not only to not have to be, but to be conditioned to not be curious, right? - So just to park that as the status quo. - Yeah, because your job in our system is to uphold the systems. And if you start to get curious about why, why these systems exist, why they make sense, which by the way they don't. So if you start to get too curious, it all starts to unravel. And so you become, that's what the schooling, our schooling is doing, that's that indoctrination system, is challenging you to not be curious. Why you're not allowed to question authority in school, why you're not allowed to push back on what is presented to you in the curriculum and ask why, who says, and where does this come from? That's not what I think or that's not what I've been told, right? You are challenged to really believe things are very black and white. It is as it says in the curriculum, I am the authority, you're not here to question, you're here only to regurgitate and to learn to be a quote unquote good citizen, which means learning how to not be curious, right? Learning how to not challenge. And I think the more that you are outside of or have less of those privileged identities that are so protected inside of that system, the more you naturally become curious because it's hard not to, I would think, if you're a black person sitting through even today, especially with so many of the changes and pushbacks that are happening, if you're sitting in a history lesson, just going back to what happened to my son's class and hearing that my teacher had even stepped outside of the curriculum and was using the term slaves and slave owners instead of in slavers and enslaved. Like if you're a black child sitting in her classroom, I think you're the only one who has that, like lived experience to maybe question that, right? To get curious about why. Why is it that I don't hear those terms being used at home but I'm hearing them here or whatever it is, like I just think that because of the lack of representation, because of your lived experience feeling so different from what's being presented, I think that you naturally or you are forced into more curiosity than people who have privileged words like, oh, well, that's easy for me to accept 'cause that looks like the experience I've had, it's what I've always been told so, okay. You know what I mean? So, yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - So I'm not the best that you're curious. And I am frustrated that others aren't. - Yeah, yeah. I think that's definitely a big part of it. I think it is. But I think also like curiosity is just fun to me. - Well, yeah. - Asking questions and learning, like that's just fun to me. That's just one of the most interesting experiences ever to have as a human being. And like, the fact that people just like, I feel like if I couldn't be curious about the world, I would feel like I had cut a limb off of my body. - You went to a liberal arts school too, right? I did for college. - But I was only in my early 30s by then. - Well, that's true. - Well, I'm just curious, but I mean, again, one, going back to lived experience, I think that again, I think like the Octavia Butler's of the world to show us anything, it's that there is this, and to not inherit, because it's not born with, but it is a forced upon you, so whatever the upset of inherent is, inherited, need like a necessity to imagine something different, right? Like, and so imagination and curiosity, like they're hand in hand, right? And you can't be imaginative if you aren't curious about what's possible. So I think there's that, 'cause I'm thinking for myself, I don't think that, I think, I know, don't even think, I know that my liberal arts education, getting out of the traditional school system, and into a liberal arts college changed everything, because that was where curiosity was finally introduced, encouraged, right? Especially going, pursuing like an arts degree versus maybe what happens for folks who are doing more of a science degree, where things again, I think can often be seen as more black and white. I don't know, 'cause it wasn't my experience, it shouldn't be too much to what that system looks like, but certainly in a liberal arts school, where you're pursuing an arts degree, I think that that is like, for many people who have never been forced to, or needed to, or encouraged to be creative, be curious, imagine, that's the first time it starts to happen. So I think for me anyway, it feels like this delayed, where I think maybe you got to it earlier, it took me until then to really start to get curious about the world around me, beyond just the sort of simple like, beyond my nose, of just like, well, you're in front of me, your life's a little different, tell me about that. It was more like, that was the first time I got to the deeper questions of the why is it different? Tell me more about, like, why is it like that? Make it make sense. That didn't happen for me until liberal arts school. - Yeah, yeah, why and what if, are like my two favorite questions? Like, why is something with it is, and what if it were different? What if we did X instead of, I, - And I tell you, Taina, that question of what if, the why I think is a question, well, first of all, it just makes me, like, is a mom to a younger child. You hear parents all the time, they get so frustrated by why, 'cause kids love to ask why, right? They love to ask why. And what do we do as parents? Because in this, I don't blame us, this is the conditioning we get, but we are conditioned to shut that down, to get annoyed by that, and to try to answer the why, and as black a white away as we can, right? We wanna give you the answer, we wanna give you the solution, we wanna tell you, this is the why, so that we're done. And what, what if, here I go, what if our responses to kids and those whys were like, I don't know what do you think, or what if, it is what you're saying, or what if it could be different? What would you want it to be, right? Like, we don't invite that curiosity with those questions. And so I just think that's interesting, because I think I've, I think why a lot, and I think I always did, I think the part I wasn't encouraged to do, and didn't do until much later, was the what if, and I still find it challenging. I still find it challenging to get to the what if. I'm pretty good at the why. I love to examine that why, and I want answers, but I'm still challenged by what if? I'm challenged by what's possible. - Yeah. - And I think it's, I just think in those formative years, as, and I really don't know what else I can blame it on, because I have parents who were educated, who were liberal arts educated, who, you know, did their best to sort of be progressive and, and all of that, and still, my experience, I really feel like I was really stunted on the what ifs. And I don't think I'm naturally, like I do think there's some nature in nurture, right, 'cause my brother just naturally was somebody who was more of the like color outside lines and the what if, and I wasn't. But I also think there's some degree of the good girl conditioning and other things that came at the play, and reinforced all of that. So, it's really interesting to hear you say the what if, 'cause I'm like, I love that too, and I'm still so challenged by what. - Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's still challenging for me too, like I think as I've gotten older, there are a lot of things that I'm just like, well, you know, I just don't feel like it. - Yeah, and you can still think the what if, right? Like I have a struggle to even fill in the what if, it's not even like, what if, but oh, I don't feel like doing it, it's like, I don't know what if, I only know that I'm mad, and I know the why, which is where younger feminists have helped me when they're asking questions like, okay, I don't wanna hear that you don't want this world, I get it, but what do you want? And that's where I've always been like, oh, that's so hard. - It's hard because it's a blank slate, right? Like, where do you even start? - But I meet people all the time who are really good at that. I'm getting better as I've had my world expanded, you know, but yeah, I still find it really challenging and I hate that that's what our schooling does to us. 'Cause I really do blame a lot of that on just being, somebody raised in a red state in the Midwest and limited exposure to. - We're trying not to ask that. - Yeah, and then the conditioning that just continued to reinforce it. 'Cause I can tell you my what if would have never been, well, let's just make a man out of wicker. - Never. - But what if we did? Well, I'm excited to find out what happens if we do. I can't wait, like, I'm gonna see this movie, which is sort of wild to me that I'm like, yeah, I'm fully invested now, I wanna see it. 'Cause I know. - I know, wait to hear your reaction. I need like immediate voice note after. - I just have to live, tweet it as we used to, whatever they call it, now life, thread it as I watch it. 'Cause I like you, I probably won't see it. at the theater. Although I do think it could be really fun girls night out at the theater. And I think they're, and I think everybody should come with like their Longa Burger backs because they've got kids with a little pink or something like that. It'd be a fun like movie, like group outing and then like discussion after. Yeah, you know, oh my god. Over wine for sure. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And also, for anyone wondering, apparently the, well, not apparently I've seen it, the European trailer, not the American trailer, as I've seen people say, so I'm not, this is not my original thought, but the European trailer shows his Longa Burger and the American does not. But he shared it with me in one of the groups I'm in and I saw it. I saw the trailer, but I was like, I can't tell what's what's a shlong and what's an arm or a leg. Well, first of all, Tyena, if you can't tell whether it's a shlong or an arm or a leg. Well, that says that's saying something pretty. I think that might be part of the reason women are like, yes, please. But secondly, I did have to like really freeze frame it and zoom in like I'm pinching in to see, but you know, I did. Yes, I was curious. And I didn't know. Yeah, it doesn't come out till October, which is wild, but we're already like people are so much engaged in this. And early August, it doesn't come out for two months. You just like I said, you can't buy that kind of publicity. So they're doing something right now. You really can't. I am excited to see what everyone wears, but particularly what Alexander Skars guard wears. He's a fashion guy because he is known to like, just kind like he's a weird guy. Like he's just like, you know, his, how do you want to get into that? Yes, I wouldn't come. I think he's a very interesting guy. He seems like a very, very modern man who's at minimum in touch with his feminine, feminine side. And I love that about him, you know, whatever. Maybe he's got skeletons in his closet that he's a real jerk, but what I've seen so far, he seems like again, every man until no man. So I, I'm not one who will ever go on on a limb to defend any man. I'd be like, if you tell me he was a horrible person, I'd be like, okay, totally believe it. But at some point, yeah. And I love Olivia Coleman. So I'm very excited about her and this too. I am curious. It's always interesting with these kinds of movies. First of all, it's British, right? Like most of the actors, anyway, seem to be largely British or European, which, often those kinds of movies tend to be pretty white to begin with. Some of that is demographic makeup, some of that historical issues as well. You know, and this is a period piece, but the preview did look very white. And I don't know yet, like, whether that, what that means for how I will feel about her, how others will feel about it. So that'll be interesting. But certainly, if not at the level of white supremacy issues, there definitely seems to be some good commentary that should come out of it around patriarchy issues. Yeah. Yeah. So be interesting for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we'll report back in October. I get. Yeah. After we both have seen it, we can have a conversation about, you know, this is the problem though. I would say about having this much hype two months early is it's going to be hard for people for it to deliver on what people are starting to seemingly want it to be. Yeah. But we will see. All right. It's fun to get back and have conversation with you again. Yeah. First conversation back and starting it off with a bang. Well played by Fred. Perfect place to end. Thanks for listening to messy liberation. Will you please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen. Taking that moment to do that will really help us reach a wider audience. Thank you so much for your support and for listening today. Until next time.