Why Every Agency Wants a Piece of the Creator Economy

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which may be permanent high cholesterol and weight gain may occur as can high blood sugar which may be fatal monitoring is recommended common side effects are sleepiness dizziness nausea dry mouth feeling tired and diarrhea these aren't all the side effects ask your doctor about Caplyta learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824 it is friday october 2nd for years now the growing digital creator economy seemed to operate on a track segregated from the rest of traditional hollywood the talent agencies dabbled in creators mostly trying to bring them into the film and television world and occasionally there were big crossovers like the d'amelio sisters show on hulu massive multi-pronged businesses being created by the likes of mr beast and britney broski and dar man and the like but in the past year or so it felt like the creator economy has taken on a new importance alongside film and television it's now an estimated 250 billion dollar a year economy and traditional hollywood players are adapting to capture their piece of that pie not coincidentally at a time when the traditional hollywood business is struggling every day i get a press release about some investment in a creator business by a traditional player today it was 101 studios the yellowstone producer putting 25 million dollars into a food influencer platform known as yes chef at this year's can lion creator advertising conference in june the u.s talent agencies had a huge presence including caa an agency that probably wouldn't have wasted its time courting creators only five years ago and now they're doing a lot of good work in this area as well and i want to take a moment to thank all of you for joining us today and i want to thank all of you for joining us today and i want to thank all of you for joining us today are surpassing the a-list movie stars and a full 360 business might include brand deals books consumer products podcasts and even scripted or non-scripted content sometimes with the agency taking a piece of the client's business it's a bit of an inflection point so i wanted to do a show on how traditional entertainment players are making that transition over to direct to consumer how they're helping creators grow their businesses and how they're helping creators grow their businesses where the money is being made for that i've got saul goldberg on the show he's a former cia television agent who started a company a few years ago called blossom to do exactly that he sees parallels now between what's going on and what the reality tv gold rush was in the early 2000s so today it's the creatorification of hollywood how old and new entertainment are teaming to make more money from the ringer and puck i'm matt bellany and this is the town all right we are here with saul goldberg who is the founder of a company called blossom that incubates youtube talent invests in creators former cia agent and producer welcome saul thank you matt long time listener first time sparring partner uh great to be here welcome okay so i wanted you on because you have an interesting background here and you are a good person to talk about how the creator economy is changing the traditional entertainment ecosystem and this is not new this has been happening for a decade 15 years but it does feel like it's really ramping up and the traditional power structures and you know we've seen it everywhere from movies this past summer where youtube creators were elbowing their way into the traditional movie business we saw it at can lion this year the ad conference where the talent agencies had massive presences cia participated in a major new york times piece declaring themselves open for business for creators brian lord the head of cia all of a sudden cares about creators and i feel like we have reached a kind of tipping point now where it's not like these this is an aspect of the business in many ways this is an aspect of the business and i feel like we've reached a kind of tipping point now where this is driving the business and these agents in particular seem to be a fulcrum here can you describe how the creator economy is changing the business of talent agents yeah i think matt that's a very comprehensive summary of the situation you know i think that if you contrast the world before youtube and before streamers obviously it was a gatekeeper led world and i think that's a very comprehensive summary of the situation and i think that's a very and it was in that world that the talent agencies really you know built their core business lines they're the filters you had to have an agent to get a job and you had to convince somebody you're talented to represent you now the proof of concept is out there on the internet and the power dynamic has switched and if you have a following these agents are after you that's right and i think to go back to your broad question how has it changed the landscape of the agencies i think for quite some time as you noted probably for at least 10 15 years you know the agencies have had digital departments and those departments have signed digital talent and i think represented them in a similar way to how an agent traditionally would represent a traditional talent you know putting them into tv or films and and looking to diversify their their brands outside of just you know their platforms i think where we've seen a lot of the paradigm shift over the last 18 months is to the degree that the agencies as you say have realized that the creator economy is in a sense no longer something siloed and separate from the economy it just is where formats are birthed where talent establishes themselves and there's a recognition that real intellectual property businesses are being used to create talent and then created and now scaled from starting out as youtube channels and so they're the recognition that it's it's not just a nice to have it's a fundamental must-have part of of of any of any media business i think that's true if you're a talent agency or indeed a studio or a production company and of course each each um each one approaches it with a with a different priority and a different uh strategy yeah there's real money here there's real money here and it's it's it's just it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's where at the beginning of mad men they gave television to harry crane because nobody wanted it and they were all focused on print and other ad campaigns and by the end of mad men harry crane was running the agency and shooting commercials and not running but he was a major player and i think that's what's happened at the talent agencies over the past decade is these digital agents have so much more power because the money is going to be spent on the talent agencies the money is there if you can have a major creator like a dar man at caa or you know uh alex cooper or any of these big talents this is potentially a billion dollar business and if caa or wme or uta or any of these big agencies or even management companies can get a piece of that that's what they want they want a piece of that so explain how the agencies do this are they just negotiating brand deals are they setting up the podcast deal are they taking a piece of these companies how does it how does it usually work so i think traditionally that is to say with the within the last 10 or 15 years the digital agents certainly would have been helping their their creator or digital clients set up their podcast they would have been commissioning um those deals they would have of course been commissioning brand deals and if you ask you know a big creator i think you had Moldenberg on your show and you asked her this question and she noted that still the majority of revenues come from brand sponsorships. And so to the extent that a digital talent has had an agent for the last 10 years, we can be sure that the lowest hanging fruit for an agent would be commissioning those brand deals. Interestingly, Amelia is ending her show. Very interestingly, and very notably, but of course, holding on to the IP and leveraging that IP into something potentially bigger and broader. And she's working on a movie and she I think she has bigger aspirations, at least for her profile. I don't know if she'll ever be able to match the economics of what that show delivers, but maybe she will. Right. But I think so we have brand deals, if you like, as the as the lowest hanging fruit on the tree. And I think what we've seen, particularly with CAA, where, of course, I was an agent and they've done a brilliant job, I think, of building out not just their creative division, but their brands group. And so when it comes to supporting that. top creator clients with securing bigger and more expansive, more interesting brand partnerships, that's, of course, you know, a traditional aspect of this, I think where it gets interesting, and where it changes the dynamics is when you get into the aspects of how agents support their creative digital clients with diversifying their media businesses, because of course, you know, a lot of this is about making them less reliant on YouTube and YouTube's algorithm. And diversifying into other areas, whether that's consumer products, or merch, or touring or live events, top, you know, or anything of that nature. And so I think what we're broadly seeing is an effective situation where the agents are becoming more like equity partners. And if we think about the traditional, we'll talk about this, I'm sure the traditional notion of a packaging fee and what that used to constitute in terms of a business for a talent. agency, I think what we're now seeing is agents supporting the, the realization and diversification of these creative first businesses, and in the process, taking, you know, a share of revenues, and and in some cases, as we may get on to discuss actually some equity ownership of the IPs, or the businesses that they are, in some cases investing in or you know representing i think they're increasingly seeing these well it's interesting you mentioned the packaging fees because as we know television packaging fees have gone away and for those who don't know that's where an agency will put together multiple aspects of a tv show and they used to be able to take a percentage of the license fee in lieu of commissions of their own clients and that was essentially an ownership interest in the shows that they packaged and these packages lasted forever and they were assets and i was just reading the aria manual book and the packages that endeavor put together were a key aspect of the equity that they had when they merged with william morris and now those agencies don't get to do that anymore because the writers guild cried foul so essentially they may be wanting to replace that package revenue with ownership in these digital channels caa has a 250 million dollar fund you for that purpose i think that's right and i think that the agency packaging fees of yesteryear would be broadly analogous to the equity positions that agencies would be taking in creative businesses today i just want to emphasize too that you know many of my mentors in this business the people that taught me the business market can perhaps chief amongst them have you know the big talent careers major talent agent who in many ways is considered the godfather of the unscripted tv packaging business and you know i speak to mark a lot about this and the paradigm has shifted and it's shifted in a structural or secular not cyclical way i think that's really important to to understand and so i think you're right the the agency's pivots within the creator economy and the strategies they're deploying to support and grow and partner with creators is 2026 as equivalent of what mark and of course ben sildman and others did in the late 90s with the reality tv formats of that period yes and for those who don't know there was a period in the late 90s and early 2000s where it really was a wild west where these formats were coming over from foreign countries and these deals were being done on the back of napkins to you know package up these formats for global exploitation and it became a hugely lucrative business i think we're in a period like that and to be fair i've talked to people at caa about this and i've talked to people at caa about this and they don't just take a piece of their clients business they will very methodically if they launch something with the client they will often have an opportunity to invest in it or if they bring them a deal they will invest in it it's not like they sign clients and you know say oh in order to represent you we're going to get a piece of your business it's all a negotiation and in fact in that new york times article i referenced from earlier this year the head of the digital department at wme the big caa rival ben davis he actually gave him a quote saying quote we see the greater opportunity in providing the services that help talent own more of what they build so that was a little finger in the eye of caa essentially saying we're going to help you make money we're not going to try to make money disclosure on that one ben davis has represented puck in the past um he does the deal for this show so i should mention that but he is in the middle of this stuff where they are both clamoring to sign these digital clients and give them a deal that will appeal to them and in many cases that's let's build a business together in many cases it's you get me brand deals or you get me talent deals and i'll pay you a commission yes and i think i think it's it's interesting to see the differences in the strategies deployed by the three majors the three major agencies you know increasingly i think we're seeing wme look to take their creator talent and put them through their live league their sports leagues and live events franchises i think uta have been a little bit more active in sort of signing lifestyle type uh creative businesses and i think caa have now really doubled down obviously in their creators representation division but also as you noted in raising this fund to actually um acquire and take equity in in these businesses and it's important to note those are separately run businesses and as you say there's usually a very compelling argument for why you know an agent will bring value to their client and they they of course will negotiate what's fair and in their interest and they brought in brent weinstein who's a big pioneer in this area in the agency world he was at uta for many years now it's caa essentially bringing that business over to caa yes this episode is brought to you by the new movie the social reckoning this electrifying thriller from aaron sorkin is based on the true story of the facebook insider who uncovered what the company was doing and what the company was doing in the last couple of years and that's what we're going to be talking about in this episode of social reckoning this episode is brought to you by nas energy every ounce of dirt sweat and gears every checkered flag and trophy raised every lap every race every hard-fought place they're all jammed into one of the most powerful companies in the world and they're all going to be exposed to it every can of nas energy high performance energy for burning the midnight oil in the garage and pedal to the metal human horsepower for the streets go ahead crack open a can of nas energy and get after it gray roots entering the chat uninvited garnier's got you garnier color sensation retouch covers up to 100 of grays in just 10 minutes no ammonia no mess and the color lasts up to four weeks it's as easy to apply as shampoo plus it's vegan and cruelty free 10 minutes sensational color sensational price with those savings your next girl's night is basically free find your perfect match at walmart.com or at a store near you all right let's talk about the parallels here because as we mentioned there are parallels to the unscripted business and how that evolved but the unscripted business today is in a pretty challenged place i mean i hear it all the time but it's not the same as the unscripted business all the time how these unscripted production companies are struggling their budgets are just being squeezed and squeezed and squeezed we saw it last two weeks ago american idol is moving to atlanta because they are their budgets are being cut so much by abc that freemantle wants to move out of la and hollywood to get you to get some tax credits and to make the show cheaper they may move america's got talent as well and that's a sign of the unscripted right now what is going on in the unscripted tv business right now yeah well again i think it goes back to what i describe as this paradigmatic structural shift in the business you know i think if you consider the writer's strike of 2008 it was the in many ways the the boom for unscripted and we saw a lot of major formats kind of come out of that today obviously with youtube being the the most watched streaming platform and with you know youtube and netflix competing ever more for ad dollars and for talent. I think broadly what we've seen is in the most recent writer's strike, an absence of precisely that uptick in unscripted that we saw in 2008. And, you know, in actual fact, when it comes to ordering new unscripted shows for the streamers, it all comes back to IP and celebrity and global recognition. And if you don't have David Beckham or Lionel Messi attached or some kind of incredibly salacious access to some true crime story that's happening in real time with body cam footage and so forth, it's very, very, very hard to get a streamer to commit to a series order. And I think on the format side, I would just add, we're seeing, as you noted, ever more formats get birthed and proven online, whether that is in the form of chicken shop dates, you know, which was, of course, shopped to all the broadcasters in the UK and everyone passed. And there's a million stories like that. And so we're seeing the sort of the creator is no longer relying on the gatekeeper or indeed the production company or the or the buyer to validate their idea. They're saying, I believe in my idea. I'll publish it. I'll test and see. It's a different muscle from traditional TV production. And in many cases, if their format's proven, then they have something very valuable to license, you know, down the road. Well, isn't it just creators and podcasts have replaced unscripted TV or are replacing unscripted TV with the exception of the big, noisy formats and celebrity driven shows? I think that is a both reductive and simultaneously accurate description of the situation. I think that broadly, we've seen the melding of late night TV with talk shows, with podcasts such as this, this one. In other words, they've all become not this one. We're not even on Netflix. We're, we're, we're, we're full YouTube, baby. Give it a year, Matt. Give it, give it a year. I'm sure Netflix will come calling. I'm sure. I'm sure Ted Sarandos is saying, how do we get the town on Netflix? Well, they are saying, how do we get the rest is football on Netflix? And they got it. And I believe the rest is football was one of the, you know, most watched shows during the world. And Neil Mohan, the CEO of YouTube went public today in the journal saying that, you know, if you do that, we're not going to monetize you as well. And we're not going to put you on stage at the brand cast event and, you know, may not get the opportunities at YouTube if you're also on Netflix. So yes, big, big arms race there. I think it all goes back to this question. And it's an existential question. It's an identity question of what is a TV production company in 2026, if it doesn't own intellectual property, if you're Fremantle, and I would point to Fremantle as a company who'd been very active and very clever in being early to YouTube and to clipping, they've obviously got these talent shows, America's Got Talent, Britain's Got Talent, etc. Don't forget the price is right. And many others. And that IP, they have been very clever about clipping up and building, basically, business lines on top of the core business lines on primarily YouTube and Facebook and other platforms. But if you're a production company in the, you know, that doesn't own IP, looking to build a sustainable business in unscripted in 2026, I don't think it is controversial or revelatory to say it is very, very, very difficult. But I hear this all the time. And a lot of those types of producers are trying to pivot to direct to consumer businesses. And that's essentially what you are doing. You are trying to identify creators, identify YouTube channels, and invest in them and build their businesses. And that's essentially what you're doing. And that's essentially what your business is. So explain to me your pitch to various creators and how a producer can go about building a DTC business. My view on this, Matt, is that broadly, these two worlds not are colliding, but have now collided. And there is, I think, an appetite for many creators to, in some instances, get off the treadmill. Some creators have a situation where they built a business, which is dependent on them and then being in front of camera and then doing a kind of 12 speed on the, you know, treadmill. And they often would welcome the producer, the traditional producer, who's got an idea for how to keep creating their or keep building upon their asset creatively. And that is a creative endeavor. I think broadly, what we're seeing too is, and you've, of course, had, you know, a lot of people who have been doing this for a long time, Amelia and other creators on your show, is that there is still something alluring and something different and something culturally more satisfying, perhaps, about having the muscles of traditional production and distribution teams around you to, for instance, do what, you know, obviously A24 have done and others with some YouTube, you know, YouTube assets. I get that. That makes perfect sense. Because they're bringing something to the table that Cain Parsons could not do on his own. But Cain Parsons notably did not bring in A24 to help with his YouTube presence. And that's where I think a lot of traditional Hollywood producers who are reading the writing on the wall and seeing where this is all going, they are trying to make that transition. Who are some of the best examples of creators that benefited the most from partnering with producers, representatives, and producers? In a more traditional sense, like who do you think has scaled the best because of that connection? Again, it goes back to the definition of a producer, but I would point to a YouTube channel called Veritasium, which is a science channel that was ultimately, they partnered with a group called Electrify. And Electrify has basically brought in a lot of traditional TV producers who have backgrounds in traditional TV. And they built teams around each of the channels that they have ultimately acquired, Veritasium being one of them. And they've done a very good job, as your viewers and audience can see, of essentially weaning Veritasium's audience off Derek, who's the single individual creator. And of course, using some clever AI and some other video formats, they have taken the core channel and basically now it runs largely without Derek being in front of the channel. And so, I think that's a really good example of how you can in front of every video. And it's grown and they've also done a very good job of essentially using Derek to retrain his audience and sort of do a piece to camera telling them what to expect. So, you know, I think there you have a group, Electrify, who have assembled producers from traditional TV. One of my old colleagues actually now works with them, who have done a very good job of scaling a YouTube channel that had been dependent on one person's content for most of the content and is now certainly not. But going back to your broader question, Matt, and I think where this all kind of hits home, I think actually for a lot of traditional TV production companies, they really do struggle to figure this out because actually, as I say, it is a different set of muscles and everyone has their own strategy for how to tackle the creator economy. Some are trying to build out the YouTube channels of established talent. That's one interesting lane to explore. In other words, talent that have. Well, yeah, take Amy Poehler from TV star to podcast. That's easy. Not easy, but that I understand. It's the investing in the business and building it with the creator, how that works and why we need an outside person like that. Yes. But I think in terms of each creator and each one presents different creative and operational challenges. And I think broadly, what the agencies, as we said before, have been bringing to creators in terms of diversification of revenue streams and not being so reliant on YouTube algorithm and so forth. I think they need both the operational commercialization sort of support, but also the creative producerial support to assist them in often weaning them, you know, stepping back from being on, you know, speed 12 on the treadmill. And I think some producers have been more adept at figuring that out than others. And it's a constant, it's a constant challenge for them, I think. So if you're a growing YouTube channel or network, you've got an agency, let's say a CAA that can help you raise $100 million via their affiliated investment bank. I think CAA just did that for Dude Perfect, which is a channel that I am familiar with. And I think that's a good thing. And I with a 10 year old son. And there is now maybe producers that come into your life that help you professionalize and scale and turn what is essentially a personality driven business into more of a professionally run, full scale operation. And they and they make money that way. Yeah, I think that's right. And I think the opportunities as I as I navigate them tend to be you can see a pathway to scale without being dependent on that one person, that key man risk, as it's traditionally called, is a real thing. And I think, you know, what you've seen companies like Moonbug do with Cocomelon and Blippi and other kids IP, I think we're seeing more and more opportunities to do versions of that with general entertainment assets that begin life on YouTube. And somebody with a creative vision comes along and says, I've got an idea of how you can grow this and how you don't need to be in every video. And that's kind of where the conversation starts. And private equity has discovered this as well. They also see the upside. So there are a number of funds that are investing in different creators. As someone who's in this space, what do you look for? Is it just numbers? Or is it a meeting with someone that you believe in? Like, what is it that you look for when you're looking to make the pitch to a creator? I think each creator is unique. I think what I tend to look for is a situation where somebody's got a loyal, engaged audience, even if it's not a very big audience, and clearly has real passion for something, whether that is gardening or golf or, you know, hockey or whatever, whatever it may be. And where there is a real commitment to growing a business and thinking about, you know, what they ultimately what their ultimate vision is for success for their channel. And I think that's where the real passion for something is. And I think, you know, going back to the Veritasium example, often these creators have stumbled into their stumble into their IP by accident, if that makes sense. You know, they have, you know, created a channel because they love science or because they love jacket baked potatoes, I think you say in America, or whatever their passion may be. And they have then realized that they've got a brand and they've got an audience, and they've got big distribution. And with that comes a scalable business. And so you look at a channel like spud bros, which is a UK based YouTube channel that derived from two guys in the north of England who loves making baked potatoes. That was the channel, they just love making baked potatoes. And they put a they put a camera on their forehead. And they started watching, you know, they started publishing videos of them making baked potatoes. These guys are kind of fun and cool and, you know, funny. And spud bros now has, I think, 10 restaurants around the UK, they have that, you know, that they, they have a retail line in the major retailers, and so forth, and so on. And let me guess, they have a big private equity backer. I believe they do, although I will know in their case, and this is an interesting, we may not have time to go down this rabbit hole right now. But there's an interesting pushback among audiences on YouTube, for creators who have sold to private equity. There's this perception that maybe private equity is somehow interfering with the content and editorial of the channel, you know, which personally, I don't think is usually a founded concern. But nevertheless, I think in their case, actually, they didn't sell to private equity. And it's been largely because they're not selling to private equity. And they're not selling to private equity. And it's been largely self funded and self, self scaled, actually. But but in many cases, you will see that kind of channel be, you know, pickings for the private equity group, certainly. Well, I see this as exciting for the traditional Hollywood ecosystem, because it is an area of the business that's growing. And the fact remains that many of the areas of Hollywood are not growing and declining. And if this could be the next big growth area, and if the shift could be the next big growth area, and if the shift could be the next big growth area, where it isn't a separate world, it's just kind of assimilated into the larger entertainment ecosystem. I think that's a good thing. All right. Thank you. Appreciate the time. Thank you. We are back with the call sheet, Craig, big weekend, this weekend of the movies. Let's get Verity out of the way first, because I think we're going to have a little a few more thoughts about Digger, Verity, Colleen Hoover adaptation. They're tracking on this one, is actually kind of amazing. 31 million, it's tracking to. This is the more popular of the recent Colleen Hoover books that have been bestsellers. But Anne Hathaway and Colleen Hoover, 31 million. Do you think it's getting there? From Amazon? I do think it's getting there. I think. Oh, I do not. Really? 31? I would take the over on 31. The last Colleen Hoover movie got to what, 18 for the opening weekend? Reminders of you? I think this book is much more popular. This is also like a suspense thriller and there's like more sex in this one. It's her first R-rated book adaptation. I think all the other ones have been PG-13. It ends with us got to 50 million two years ago. I think this book is more popular than Reminders of Him and Regretting You and is closer to It Ends With Us in terms of popularity. So I think I would take the over. All right. So we diverge. You're taking the over. I'm taking the under on 31. That's the NRG number. Let's move on. You and I went to the Digger premiere. Yeah. Monday night, the LA premiere. And wow, man, this is a fascinating one. I cannot believe this is going to be the last Warner Brothers movie ever released. A hundred years of the studio and this is the last one before the close of the merger with Paramount. And will it be the last Tom Cruise original movie he'll ever do? And he'll go right back to Mission Impossible. I don't know, man. 160 million plus this movie cost. Do not believe them when Warner says 125 million. This is 160 million dollar art house movie. Tom Cruise doing his shtick. The reviews not great. Alejandro Iñárritu big swing. Like I'm happy they took the swing on this one. I'm very happy Iñárritu got to make this movie. I'm happy Tom Cruise got to finally work with the director. He says he's wanted to work with his whole career as a business proposition. This thing is about as tough of a needle to thread. As exists in Hollywood these days. And the tracking on it for NRG at least it was at 20 couple weeks ago. Then went to 18. Then went to 15. I'm now seeing some numbers in the low teens like possibly even 10 million. Wow. Let's go with the NRG number. Set it at 15. Over or under? Under. Under. I agree. Did you like the movie? I don't know. Look. You don't have to answer that. My client my client will not be answering the question. I plead the fifth. Look the movie's not very commercial and I think it's it's just too weird to have strong word of mouth. It's like don't look up and Birdman had a baby. Regular people are going to see this and are going to be what the fuck is this? Yes. It's going to be way too weird to have word of mouth. And look I think Cruise is good in the movie. And I think I like you said I respect that it was made and it's a huge swing. I don't really think it particularly works. There's like some interesting elements of the movie. But I think people are going to be upset when they see it. Probably the reviews have been sort of both sides on this one. It's like, oh, polarizing. And now they're running an ad saying like, see for yourself, decide for yourself. It goes back to show girls. Show girls did that. They ran an ad campaign saying, you know, the critics might be wrong. See for yourself. But some of the reviews on this movie are just brutal. And some people liked it. Yes. But there's a lot of bullsizing. Most of the reviews are pretty negative. And a lot of people are offended. And it's at what 50. It's about 50% on Rotten Tomatoes, which for an Ina Ritu movie, lowest of his career. That's fair because he's, you know, he has a much higher reputation. But like the Colleen Hoover movies, it's funny, you know, nobody cares. Verity has a lower Rotten Tomatoes score than Digger. Yeah, but nobody cares. They're not going for high art. They have different intentions. But it's just it's just funny that it's such a high criticism for Digger. Nobody cares for Verity. It was funny at the premiere to see the faces of people coming out of this one. It was it was one of those like, awkward, everybody kind of stayed quiet whispering to one another waiting to get out of the building before they gave their take. Yes, lots of takes coming out of this one in Westwood. But so we're both taking the under on 15 million. How low would it have to go for you to take the over? Like, what do you think? Like, if it was 10? Would you take the over on 10? I think this is one of those where the Friday night audience and the reactions on social are going to just kill this movie. And it could end up that it drops into the single digits. It could. I don't think it will think there's enough curiosity around Cruise. He is really selling it. He's doing the spirit line on Jennifer Hudson. He's doing anything he can at this point. But it's, I think it's it's going to be low teens for this one. There might be like Tom Cruise looky loos that want to see this. But yeah, I do think the word of mouth is going to be tough. Or those ads might work. It might be one of those lovable train wrecks. And to be honest, like, as an artistic enterprise, it was interesting. It's an interesting movie. I totally agree. It's just aggressively not commercial. It's very arthouse. And also, I would say that the marketing is hiding parts of the movie that you don't expect, which I think helps the experience. But that's the point. Totally. They're purposely hiding it. Well, yeah, I don't know if that has that worked. Perhaps not. That doesn't usually work. But we'll see. All right, that's the show for today. I want to thank my guests all. Joe Goldberg, producer Craig Horlbeck, our editor Steve Allman, and Stefano Sanchez. And I want to thank you. We will see you next week. lasages, and supplements. Make sure. You look for sales throughout the month. Shop fall flavors with higher standards at Whole Foods Market. Hank joined BJ's Wholesale Club the day he became a father of 30. I coach football. 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