Why doesn’t anybody come to my parties?

[Music] This is Sir Chenjin, I'm PJ vote. No question too big. No question too small. This week a question that is very small. Not a question of mine, someone else's, but a question I related to very deeply. A question from an internet personality and anonymous one who writes a substack I enjoy. I know you prefer to write online under the name Cartoon's Hate Hurr. Is there like a first name that we can use for the purposes of this story? Yes, so I go by CHH in my comment section, my discord and stuff, but then if legacy media wants me to write for them and sometimes they do to quote Trump, they were begging like dogs, they were saying, "Please write for a wonderful publication." But I said, "You can't do it without the beautiful pseudonym." I don't want to do the real name. There's a lot of weird people out there and you got to use the beautiful pseudonym. So basically I go by Claire Haber-Harris, which is CHH for short. This was Minute 2 of my interview with Claire. Talking to her for me, I experienced her like a fireworks factory that someone had accidentally dropped a lit mansion, a stunning show that's also a lot. Right-bound myself entertained, but not to be sure where to sit. So can you, how do you describe what it is you do? I run the number one humor account on Substack, at least as of this day. I don't know if someone's going to overtake me by the time this comes out. I write about social dynamics, anything from friendship, parenting, relationship, stating, marriage. And then also just some random like internet pop culture, that kind of stuff. I'll cover a little fashion here and there. I wrote an article about in Sel Gorillas, who start their own all-male societies. So you never know what you're doing yet with my stuff. You really don't. And recently Claire wrote about this question she had that captivated me. A blog post called "A Full Investigation of Why Nobody Comes to My Parties." Her question was simple. In the real world, Claire lives by her description an incredibly normy life as a mom somewhere. Two kids, a husband. But with this funny problem, she wants to throw these big parties, nothing debaucherous, just a classy party with dressed up adults and their children. Except when she tries to do it, people don't want to come. A different person would just throw smaller parties or no parties. Claire is not that kind of person. Like, why is throwing parties important to you? Why do you want to throw parties? Why do you want people to come to those parties? I think it has so much to do with memories I have as a kid. You know, my parents would throw this really big Christmas party every year. And it was dressy. It was formal. People would come in fancy clothes. They would bring their kids. The kids would be dressed fancy. The kids would make little innocent mischief around the house. And there would be all this food. And it was like the highlight of my year. My parties are much more low-key. But I do like the idea of people reasonably putting in the effort to dress up a little bit and go to a party. I'm putting the effort. I come from my parties. I go to so much effort. I make cakes. I make roast duck. I want to do the work. And I love doing the work. I love doing that. All I ask is the people come and that they wear something better than the sweatpants. And so what has happened to, like, you have this vision in your head, which is like a party where you cook something where people dress like above airport grade. Exactly. You call it. Exactly. Maybe there's a theme. You, you, what happens when you try to do this? Every single time it was the same thing where I'd invite a lot of people. And a lot of people would say that they were out of town. They couldn't make it. A lot of people would have responded all. I would be like, okay, I need to follow up. I don't want to be annoying. That would follow up like three times. No one would respond. And then a week before the party, I'd always be like, I think I got a cancel bus because no one's coming. And this is really humiliating. And I don't think I have any friends. And if I continue with this party, what's going to happen is people are going to show up, see that no one else is there. And they'll be like, this girl's a loser. I don't want to go to her parties again. And then I'm going to have an even smaller group of people next time. And I'm just going to circle the drain time and time again. How many, when you said other invitation, like, how many people are you inviting typically? It's gone smaller. So it used to be that I would invite a lot of my coworkers and I would invite a lot of people that I've met once or twice. And I would set this really, really wide nut, 30, 40 people, and like maybe eight people would show up. So now I'll invite like 10 couples, 10 families. And I'm lucky if three show up. That is a low yield. I have to say, like, that is a low yield. It's a very low yield. One thing, though, is I have to avoid holiday weekends. Because I'm from an area where apparently no one stays home for any holiday weekend ever. Like, everyone's always out of town. And that's the most common response I got is I'm out of town. So I have to be very careful. And you take I'm out of town. Like, when you get that as a common response, you're both thinking a lot of people are traveling a lot. And some people might be using it as a very, like, convenient social out. Oh, completely. I see it as like every individual person who says it in the moment. I believe them. And I'm like, okay, sure. But then I look at my invite list and I'm like, okay, I invited 10 people, seven or out of town on a random weekend in October. What are the odds? You know, and it's like some of the relying. I don't know who it is. What I sometimes do is I calculate, oh, this person has been out of town every single time I've invited them. I don't believe there was one woman that claimed to have a stomach virus three times in a row. She didn't even change the virus. She could even have the decency to get COVID or something. I feel this like I don't believe you. Some important context. When Claire moved to the place where she currently lives, she was hoping to make a ton of new friends there. Instead, COVID struck and she and her husband had a baby, then another. And the triple whammy, new home, pandemic, kids, has just made finding people harder than she would have liked. She's got some mom friends from the park, went through a Facebook group, a few wins. But there's something about the conversion from a good first meeting to friendship that is malfunctioning. Claire's not a closer. Like, here's a great example. Yeah. I met this woman. She came over to her house with her kids. We had a really nice time. And she was like, I definitely want to hang out with you again. This was so fun. We have so much in common and we did have so much in common. And then I invited them to my son's birthday party. And I met her husband at this party. And I said to him, like, oh, I've gotten really close with your wife. She seems so nice. We have so much in common. I don't know if you've gotten to meet my husband at all, but it would be great. We could all go out, do something together, even with the kids if you wanted to bring them. And he very coldly said, well, we have a lot going on this summer. Like, we're going to be out of town a lot. And I was like, oh, yeah, that's fine. We are too, actually. But like, when we get back, that's all works something out. And he was like, well, you know, work is pretty crazy. And like, I have a lot going on. And I was like, why does this guy not want? Like, he was clearly making excuses. And I was like, stupidly taking them at face value. Like, I was like, shooting down every objection. I was like, oh, yeah, don't worry about it. Like, we can come to you. Like, and then I was like, no, no, no, it's deliberate. He doesn't want to hang out with me. I don't know why. Like, maybe it was because I was talking to the husband and not the wife. Like, maybe he thought I was hitting on him. Like, I was like, I don't know. But he did not want to hang out with me. And then I never heard from the wife again. And to this day, I still have no idea what it was. It could have been like, my kid, or it could have been me, or it could have been my husband. Like, I don't know. Could it have anything? That had so many interactions like that. But after a while, something's going on. And how much do you worry that it is just like something about you? Like, how much does your brain say like, this is a personal thing? Oh, it always comes back to that. I think that's a likely culprit. Some might earliest memories from preschool even, because I have a pretty good memory as like, something is wrong with me. I don't know what it is. Other people are in on this code. I'm not in on it. I don't get it. A lot of people have speculated that I have autism. I've been tested a lot of times. And I don't. I'm not even remotely on the spectrum. So I don't know what it is. Talking to Claire, reading Claire, it's very obvious you are encountering an unusual person. Not autistic, but has been tested a lot of times. Sort of its own category. She's also been diagnosed with OCD, ADHD. She's a person with a brain that works really well in some ways, less well in others, where the part that sees clearly is constantly trying to describe things to the part that sees fuzzly. You say like, you have early early memories of this feeling of like, whatever, the social rhythm that some people find easily, you only found with difficulty. I was the kid not invited to other kids' birthday parties, and then no one would ever come to mind. So this is a deep wound from like childhood. Is that, and I have a summer birthday, so I'm going to blame some of it on like people actually traveling. But there was a little girl, I still remember her name. It was Megan. If you're listening now, Megan, yes, I am still angry at you. But she had a birthday party. We were six, and she invited the whole class except for me. And I don't know what kind of mother now is a mother looking back on that. I'm like, what sicko would allow their kid to invite their whole first grade class except this one, the six-year-old girl? Like what a horrible person. So I mean, not her fault because she was a child, but like her mother needs to answer for her crimes. And at that age, your parents tell you that you're perfect and amazing. I mean, if you have loving parents, and my parents always told me, "Oh, you're so likable. I love you so much. You're so fine." You're so kind and so there's a thing where I'm like, well, why does anyone else like me? I think it's fair to say that some version of this question exists in most people's minds, at least sometimes, who among us has not had the feeling that they're being off-putting, but don't know why. That their personality has a big green chunk of something in its teeth that everybody else is reacting to, but won't just describe for you. Well, nobody will do it except a podcaster. That's why we're devoting a full episode to documenting one person's potential flaws and faux pas, and an unusually thick skinned extrovert who has invited us explicitly to do so. Claire assured me she was prepared to sit with whatever it was we found. I think I'm at the point in life for like, I'm a big girl, I can handle it. What I want this to be, not that it's up to me, but like, I just want it to be funny and relatable and like, oh, you know, she's a little awkward. Like, I think that's fine. I'm okay to be roasted a little bit. I'm okay. If someone says her party's fucking suck ass and I've hated every single one, I will laugh at that. But if someone's like, she's a horrible mother and I suspect that she is a serial killer, like, I will be very upset. Totally, totally understandable. This is like a very like, human, human, a set of concerns. And so, would the next step be for me to send you some people that you should talk to? Yes, that would be the best. I will do that. Awesome. All right, thank you. All right. Touch you soon. After the break, we go get answers. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Welcome back to the show. Like everybody else, I like things that are good. Good meal, good movie. But I can get about as much pleasure out of something that just totally sucks. An AI written song, someone's generated, that they are now playing for me off their phone speaker. It's completely brilliant. If something is bad enough, trying to explain to myself what makes it bad is its own pleasure. Autopsy of a stink. How many times in my life, driving home from, and open mic night, or play, had I already been mentally running through a true crime story? Who or what killed the fun that could have existed in this place? I done it actually for about a million parties I'd attended. I just never done it like this. Over the phone. For a series of parties I hadn't. Claire had sent me a long list of people who agreed to talk. Intimidts like her husband and brother, old friends from her pre-mom life in San Francisco, also new people in her new home. I decided to start there. How long have you known Claire? I've known Claire about five years. We met as a mom meetup during the pandemic. This is Liz, a friend who Claire met through an event organized on the local Facebook mom's group. There was a third mom that was there and she was kind of boring but I could tell Claire was interesting and funny and like neurotic and witty. And I'm like, I shall become her friend. And so have you been to any of Claire and ex parties? So we have kids. So my only experience with her parties has been kids birthday parties. And what are they like? So like basically they have a like a great backyard space. They're a shoe free household. So you take off your shoes but then you put them back on to go through the back. Or your kids have wet feet in their socks, which also happens to my kids on occasion. But I'm like kind of a laze fair parent. So I don't care as much about that. But you get to the back. Normally her husband has like a cocktail situation going on, which is sometimes non-alcoholic, sometimes alcohol, depending on where they are in their alcohol journey. And then there's normally like a kids beverage of some sort that's on the healthier side. And then there's like a birthday cake of some sort. The last time she made like a really beautiful cake herself. It was delicious. Clues already scattered clues dots and searchable line alcohol journey. I filed that in my head and gave me something. But also actually the delicious cake. It meant the food probably wasn't the problem. Unless I wondered if Claire could be over studying people's reactions to her cooking. A party failure mode I've both encountered and definitely create it. Let's continue. And then like normally the kids are just hanging out for a while. They play on the swing set. They mess around. At like two parties ago she gave away these really beautiful hand crocheted stuffed animals because she didn't like the waist of like a lot of goody bags. And they were like very precious and sweet. So very thoughtful, very nice. But yeah, like it's a kids birthday party. I mean it sounds nice. It doesn't sound. It is. And it's not super structured. It's super chill. Like especially given that it's Claren't Nick. But it's significantly more chill than other things in their lives. And what do you mean by way more chill than some of the other things in their lives? You know like the tightness of the house is really important to Nick. Claire gets distracted sometimes because she is really focused on her kids. And like she really, she's a good mom. She really cares about her kids. And like really tries to stay attuned to everything that's going on with them. Much more so than I do. We went out for a sushi once and it was like an all you can eat sushi place and the kids were playing on a field. And like she spent like a significant amount of our time like trying to make sure she could always see her son in that he would come closer. Whereas like my kids were just running around like crazy animals. And I was just like whatever. So yeah, stuff like that. I put that in my notebook. So it's funny. It's like you're describing people who are like anxious maybe like verging on uptight, which is totally fine. But you're having what what confuses me is like the experience she's having is like there's something about the party she's throwing or the way she's throwing them or something that is putting off some people. There are people who go and never come back or people who see the invitation and decide not come. But it's hard because what you're describing sounds very normal and fine. It's super normal. And you've never been I'm not trying to I guess I am trying to lead the witness. I'm trying to resist my own temptation lead the witness. But you've never been at a party of clairs where you thought this party is kind of weird. It should be different. No, never like it was weird. Like it's always a small gathering, but it's always pleasant. Huh, okay, I'd say like maybe if there was more food like I like out to my one piece of feedback like more food would be great. Is it just is it not many snacks? There aren't that many snacks, but I don't I would never say that that was like a turn off to the party. People appreciate trickery, crudite, tiny pigs and tiny blankets. You might even show up for good enough snacks. But there's scarcity wasn't a reason for a 70% decline rate. I made my next call. How far back do you go with Clare? So we met the summer of 2023. I want to say so it's been a few years. This is Meredith, another fellow mom, but less a friend or an acquaintance. Meredith had had some different experiences at Clare's parties, although not the first one. The first one was fine. It was lovely. They invited maybe the entire class of families, like not just kids but whole families to their place. For a get together, it was like a beautiful late May or June day. They have this wonderful backyard where they had like a swing set and they had a bouncy castle water feature type thing set up. Oh well, have they rented the bouncy castle or did they have a full? Oh no, they owned it. Yes, they owned it. I've never been to anyone's house who owned a bouncy castle. I know. Yeah. The bouncy castle. There'd been this kid I'd known in junior high. I remember being somewhat ostracized. Not because anything was wrong with them, except how badly he was trying to be liked. The decadence and opulence of his seventh grade birthday party. He would have had a bouncy castle. For the problem here just be the visible sweatiness of it all. but I looked into it. There's the bounty cache. was actually modest, why you can get on Amazon for about $150. And besides, the bouncy castle had charmed Meredith. [MUSIC] >> I was like, wow, okay, the kids were thrilled. If I had been hosting the party, I would have been like, that was a great success. >> Have you ever been to a party at their house that felt unusual or awkward or weird or not fun? >> So the third party, this is, and the final party that I was invited to at their house was different. It was a joint party for Claire and her daughter. It was more indoor and it was a totally different vibe. [MUSIC] She had invited, there were some family there, there were co-workers there. There were some of her husband's friends were there. And a tiny smattering of the same preschool parent group was there. >> And were they not mushing in a coherent way? >> No, no, I mean, because the co-workers kind of stuck together and then the ones of us that had kids, we were in and out of their basement, because that's where the kids were mostly hanging out. >> And they weren't able to reach across the gap. >> Because it's fine, it's fine, it's not as few a mix, but they were not mixing. >> Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't think they were mixing that well. I don't think I was mixing that well either. And Claire was being pulled in a bunch of different directions herself. >> What do you mean, can you describe what that was like? >> She and her daughter had these very cute matching outfits. They were trying to get photos. She was trying to get drinks and stuff. I don't know, she was hosting in very normal, expected ways. But I don't remember feeling like she was sort of doing the connecting work. >> She wasn't doing like, you should talk to this person and you guys need to talk about Pittsburgh, because you guys both went to Pittsburgh one time. >> Right, right, right. >> Maybe one of the more common forms of bad party in this world. The one where you're an ingredient placed into a mix in which you're never gonna belong. You're mustard, squirted into the batter of a cake. It was one of those things where I didn't know how long to stay. It was a very open ended party and I definitely felt relieved, I don't know. But it was like coming to London. >> We're gonna be here for the amount of time we need to be here. And when you go, you get in the car and you're like, let's go home. >> Yeah, we're like, okay, I did that. But it's like so hard, because I do really appreciate people who are willing to host. And I think it's amazing that she is. So I feel like awful, honestly, being like negative about it in any new way. It was just like, it did not feel like a party I wanted to stay at. >> I filed these stories away and began to reach out to a new list of people, the San Franciscoans. People who'd known Claire longer, even before she was mom. I sent my emails, I waited for responses. [MUSIC] >> Why do parties matter? I hesitate to say this next bit because I believe it so earnestly, it makes me cringe. But I do think parties matter in a deep, serious way. Parties summon the thing we actually care about, community. Not community, meaning fans of an influencer. Not community, meaning consumers of a product. Actual community. When people who know each other a lot or a little come together to risk something. Risk being embarrassed or embarrassing, bored or boring. Nobody has time for a party, we all work too much. It's shameful to care about them, certainly as much as I do, certainly as much as Claire does. But I think they've reached somewhere that's deeper than modern. Two inches beneath the surface of our brain were cave people, scared, alone, afraid that when we wake up, the tribe will have moved on and we'll have to fend for ourselves against all these bears. Claire doesn't know what it is about her that drives people away. That woman, she tried to befriend the woman's husband. Her group of friends in middle school, who one day out of nowhere just permanently voted her off the lunch table. You don't get to do exit interviews with the people who decline your friendship. But a party, it's a way at least to test her current phone book. To see if the people whose number she knows will actually show up if she calls them. That's why she'd asked about the parties. That's why I was here. So my name is Alyssa and I've known Claire. I don't know how many years since she very first moved to San Francisco. So maybe 14 or 15 years ago. Alyssa is allowing distance from today. But back in SF, she and Claire were extremely close, which means she attended many of Claire and her husband next parties and which she had to tell me was informative. For starters, even way back then, these were low yield parties. I would say a handful of people would show up often the same characters, often random characters who were like people she was trying to like befriend that week. I don't have a problem with these like smaller group gatherings, but I think in her mind, she always wanted more of a rager. So I guess she interpreted them as being, you know, disappointments, but as an attendee, I never did. So more evidence that Claire kind of just had to be able to gather. Some people mind others don't. But Alyssa, hopefully, had also done a little reporting of her own. I asked my own husband for his perspective. I was like, do you remember those parties? And he's like, well, I remember that their place was really small and we would just sort of all be crowded around a TV watching music videos. Wait, really? Yeah. She wanted this upscale martini drinking vibe in her apartment, but then when you get there, it was definitely like an apartment that was very decorated by Nick. Kind of like look like a guy's place. It's not as polished compared to where they live now. Help me see it. Like how did Nick decorate an apartment back then? It was dark. Dark. There was sports paraphernalia like on the walls. There was a licensed plate that said, ass man on it on the wall, which I always loved. And that's what my husband brought up to. He's like, ass man. Like, yeah, I know. That was so good. We have so many photos of it. The ass man license plate, of course, assigned felt reference, Kramer's license plate one episode. And under the ass man plate, they would participate in some strange party rituals led by Claire's husband. So we'd get to his apartment and the TV was always on and he always wanted to show music videos. Music videos? Like do you remember the genre? I'm going to miss pronounce it the David Guetta. He really liked him. The like, I like dance music. Like I think he is. Dance music. I never watch music videos outside of their apartment. I don't think I would ever intentionally look up a music video, but it's very core to like the party scene there. The second genre of events that would happen at these parties would be Claire's impressions. I think she did like an iggy. She's always been into doing impressions. Nick would sort of like, you know, get everyone quiet. I'd be like, hold on, hold on. Like Claire is going to do an impression now. It was a little forest to fairy. And you know, he was always her biggest cheerleader, like laughing and thinking it was so great. But I think it was never for my husband's sense of humor or something like he was entertained by like I all she is not everyone's cup of tea. Her sense of humor is absolutely not everyone's flavor. Listening to this, I got the feeling I imagine defense attorneys get when they learn something about their client that might not play so well in court. An upscale martini drinking party in a man cave where the hosts go kind of Michael Scott on you that husband demanding you sit quietly and be an audience for his wife's humorous impressions. While meanwhile, you're also subject to unsolicited David Gettetracks on YouTube. This did not sound like my idea with my party at all. I don't like David Gettet. I would remember that party, but I don't think I would come back for another. What kind of monster would do this to people? My name is Nick. I'm her husband. We've been together since she was 19, so 17 years. We've been married almost 12 years. Yeah, we've been together. I know her pretty well if you have any questions. Nick, not his real name. As Alyssa had alleged, Nick was responsible for those David Gettetracks and by his admission, he'd also been egging Claire on when it came to her comedic impersonations. She was incredible impersonator. She can sing and just do all these different artists. I like hijacked a party, make her do a show for people because she's so, everyone would be laughing and laughing. I always think if she put her talents more in display, you get more friends that way. That's always my philosophy. She always goes to complete opposite, not wanting to be the center of attention anymore, never wanting to talk about her work or anything like that. It's hard not to appreciate Nick's profound love for his wife. His conviction that she's the funniest person he knows, his desire to show her off. This way. I was even willing to give him a pass on the David Gettetr stuff. The problem that she is identifying, that the invitation yield is bad. Is this a problem that you also perceived to be real? - It's definitely a problem. Yes, yes. (laughing) It's been a problem so we lived in San Francisco for a while. And back then, we never had bait turnouts, but we always had a good group of people. And since we moved, we've just never had consistent turnouts. And she really likes throwing parties. She grew up, and her family always do party. She's big, extravagant party. So she's always trying to do this. It just never comes to fruition. - And what do you suspect is going on? - Well, I think there's probably like a pie of a lot of different reasons. I'm sure I'm part of the problem. I also have OCD. I can definitely get hyper-fixated with people like scratching a table or leaving a glass of water on a table without a coaster. So that's a little piece of the pie. I think she can definitely get very anxious when her kids aren't in sight. And I think like at a party, that probably can make people feel a little bit uncomfortable. Or like, I mean, a lot of the moms typically will like, we're like, even to like a party would wear like maybe just like nice sweatpants. I mean, not very dressed up, but she comes like fully dressed up. Right? I think that could also make people feel a little bit uncomfortable. - The thing about the clothes, I'd actually wondered about this too. One recurring theme on Claire's sub-stack on cartoons hate her is the outfit she wears. She often makes her own clothes. She posts photos with her Facebooked out. Internet commenters have remarked on her fashion. Someone called her clothes indecent, a modest. They're being frudes. But anyone who dresses remarkably risks annoying some people. Nick and Claire had both noted that sometimes women in particular react badly to Claire, like the women at the office where she used to work. - People she worked with, like the cool girls from work that would come, and they would be like very mean to her. - Would you mean at the party? - They would just not pay attention to her or really engage with her. I remember like we were getting the party ready, and we were on the roof deck, and we saw someone waiting at the bottom in a huge bottle of rosé. I was like, you can come in, it was like starting to rain. You can come in, like, no, no, no, no, I don't want to come into the other girls here. - Oh my God. - She was like waiting outside the bottle. She didn't want to be just like in there with Claire into all the other girls from work that she was friends with with her there too. - That just really painful. - She's had a lot of really painful experiences. I thought it was just stop. I just like do not care that much. I just don't see what it's the effort of the stretch. I push you through so much stress, I don't get why I actually used to do this to herself. (soft music) - Nick would prefer to not see his wife get hurt like this over and over again. He wishes they could just stick to dinner with friends. The big parties aren't even fun. Nick's brain doesn't have the feature Claire's does. A deep curiosity to know why some people don't like him, which is the same position. Because all of us are annoying and boring some of the time. In ways we'll never detect. How many times have I been at a party, telling what I think is a hilarious anecdote. When I noticed that the person I've been talking at, their phone has the uber screen on it. Because while I was enjoying how funny I think I am, they were summoning an escape pod. It's just a fact of being a person. And unless you're a politician or celebrity, the world will never tell you the specifics of your unfavorables. But for Claire, the unfavorables were impossible to ignore. Because her whole life she found herself bumping into them. (soft music) Months have passed now. I'd mostly worked through the list, Claire and Sen. Everybody had grasped a part of the elephant. It wasn't even that mysterious. For one, Claire's very anxious. It's not uncommon for her to have a freak out because she's convinced something terrible has happened to her husband or her kids. Another part of the elephant is Claire's sense of humor, a distinct flavor, not for everyone. Big performer. Like I'm a person who wants so thoroughly hijacked a party with her Lana Del Rey impression that no one could hear anything else. A ham like that is never gonna be for everyone. Although Claire says she's purposely over the years taught herself to dial that down, to spend less time trying to be funny, more time trying to just ask people questions about themselves. But still, the RSVPs were coming back to nose. And at such a higher rate than any of this would have predicted. The last person I talked to probably should have been the first. A person who could see every part of the elephant. Claire's brother. He knew he'd always known why nobody goes to his sister's parties. (soft music) It was like keeping waiting for my call. (soft music) I guess first of all, is your perception that this is a real thing? Like do you feel like people don't go to justice? Yeah, yeah. (laughing) Yeah, yeah. I mean, so like my sister and I are like, really, really, really best friends. And by the way, this is not background. Like you could print this. She's just like a very difficult and annoying person. But like, she's my absolute best friend. So like, for example, today she's like text to me like, over a hundred times about hauntavirus. And like whether she's gonna like die from hauntavirus. When you say over a hundred times, are you speaking rhetorically or? No, no, no. I think that the number of texts about hauntavirus are probably about close to 100. And they were probably over 100 yesterday. Oh, that's a lot. And like that's like, I ignore her like when I don't want to like respond to it. But she's like, she's like a genius. And genuinely, one of the most originally funny and like amazing people ever. But like, she does a lot of things that would make her being like a really popular party host difficult. Claire's brother would paint me a picture of Claire at a party that was clearer than anyone beforehand. But before he did that, he needed me to see what I'd been missing in Claire's story, the skeleton key to all of those. So like, she's like never been popular at all. Like she's always been like quite widely disliked because she has a very polarizing set of traits. For one, she's a very narrow series of interests. And the people who do have those interests are almost never women. So like groups of women like usually like hate her because she's constantly violating conformity and like being different in a way that's very unsettling and uncomfortable. And what is she trying to engage them in conversation? When you say she has a narrow interest. So for example, like, she's really into like social taboo conceptually, which is very funny because she doesn't have very good social skills but she's very interested in other people's bad likes. So like anything that's like cringe, like she really loves cringe. Oh, okay. And so like she has like kind of the sense of humor and the disposition of like I'm not and do drinking redditor like reddip row. But like obviously like if you talk to her, like she doesn't give off that impression right away. She's like, she looks like a very normal person. Yeah, so like people like see her and they think like, oh, like I know this kind of like woman. And then they like talk to her and if she's like being completely authentic, they're like very immediately bothered by her and she like has never known why. Because just just I want to just want to make sure I have a clear picture of this. It's like she looks like a person who like maybe like normal girl. Yeah, I want to talk about how great the office was or something or like parks and red. Yeah, and then like said, not like she's reading really off putting like she wants to spend her time online looking at like weird subcultures that are beginning to always talk about with you. So she was like really into, not into as in being a supporter of like really into in terms of like being a lurker of like redpill and insult blogs like years before that was like a thing. Like in like 2013 she was like reading like redpill blogs. 'Cause she's just like, what are these sickos thinking? Yeah, yeah, she was really into it. To his mind, terminally online cringe merchant is the realest version of his sister. What she actually cares about. What she can actually connect with other people over in a real way. He thinks the solution to all this is clear. Claire should stop trying to fit in with normal people. She's not normal. Find a scene of weirdos where she can be herself. But what he's seen instead is a person who's taken the wrong lesson from being shunned so much. Who now just keeps trying harder and harder to fit in, particularly after leaving San Francisco. When she moved, she was like, okay, this time is gonna be different. So now what she does is she like performs the role a lot. So I, in short, I don't think her parties are well attended 'cause I don't think they're fun. I've been to them, I don't think they're fun. And the reason why I don't think they're fun is that she's like pretending to be someone who throws like well-liked, normy parties. Yeah. For the normal person, it's a kind of like off-putting bizarre performance. And to me, it's like a hilariously, inadequate performance. I want to put VR goggles over my eyes right now. I've walked into one of her parties. Yes. What happens? So like at these kinds of parties, I feel like I'm going to a movie with my favorite comedic actor, but it's a drama and their performance is bad and boring. And so it's like she is performing her idea of what a mom should be and what a woman in her 30s should be. And it's like, it's just very boring. Because the thing about it is that she doesn't have that many things to talk about. She has a couple of things to talk about endlessly, but those are not appropriate topics usually. So it's like, if I meet someone who's a civil engineer designing bridges, I like pretend to care about bridges for 20 minutes and like try to learn as much as I can about like bridges. Yeah. her eyes just like blaze over. Not because she's mean, but because something in her brain does not fire properly. - Yeah. - And she just like can't care. Social be like, oh, how is that? And they'll be like, it's pretty good. I'm just be like, okay, like do you work in office? She really hates working in office because she's just like always bullied when she's in office. Like her main way of relating to other people's jobs is like, do you have to be in an office? 'Cause like, (laughing) So they're like, yep, you know, I have to be in office and she's like, oh, sorry about that, you know? Claire's brothers, he's his sister as a closeted person who isn't really passing, except not in a tragic way, in a slapstick way. Like if Bigfoot put on a suit and tried to ride the subway unnoticed. He thinks for Claire to have an actually fun party, she'd have to fill it with the kinds of people who appreciate her as her instead of these normies who are not quite falling for her regular person impression. When I host House Parties, which are well attended by the way, (laughing) I talk about her all the time, but like all just the freak flying stuff, like all the like, was any stuff that she does. And like the people who are my friends who like don't know her are all like, this sounds like the coolest, funniest person ever. But she like is so scarred from being bullied for being that person that she just can't do it anymore. So she came to visit me and I literally organized on party full a like Claire meet and greet to have all my friends come meet her in person. And she was being so boring. And I took her aside and I was like, what are you doing? And she's like, I'm just like, I'm being like, played with your friends. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, like that's not what they're here for. Do your thing, like do whatever you want, like that's what they want. And she was like, oh, are you sure? Like isn't that gonna be like rude? And I was like, no, no, no, no, like you're allowed to. And then five minutes later, she's like doing her like whole song and dance, like people are loving it. Huh. And this is like why rather than asking, like why don't people come to her party? Is like the more interesting thing is like, why do people on the internet like her? I, this is what I've been thinking about the whole time, even talking. The story of me knowing her is that no one likes her. And then like suddenly now everyone likes her online, online, but not in person. It's funny, the internet is a party sort of kind of that she's throwing in her sub-sac. And she's like, people love it. Top of the leader board. People love it. Yes. (gentle music) I called Claire to tell her everything I'd learned. She laughed. She laughed a lot as I listed off everything people had said they thought might be off putting about her. For every negative trait she had a story, often a funny one, about times when she exhibited it. But when it came to her, brother's advice, to remove her mask, find rooms where she could do that easily, stop trying to fit in in Nourmy Town. She rejected that. I think my brother's off base there because I think he's viewing it through his eyes where he thinks who I am is great. But I have to break it to a like, most people don't like who I am. Most people find me really insufferable when I am filter lists and talk a lot and perform constantly and I'm very focused on myself. Most people find that very tiring. The lesson she's learned over the years is more like, be yourself but carefully, not all at once. And she had an update for me. She's still not throwing successful parties, but she said something seems to be shifting. Her social calendar feels less anemic. She said just that week on three separate occasions, it was her making these excuses for why she couldn't find time. My kid got a cold and I had to be the person. I don't know if I kid got sick, like I can't. And it was true, like I wasn't making it up, but it's like, I never thought I would be the person cancelling, like I used to be the person where it's like, unless it was a medical emergency, I'll do anything to get someone to hang out with me because I just have so few opportunities. And this week I was like, you know what, I actually can postpone things, which did give me some insight into why people suddenly cancelling me, like maybe it isn't always me, like maybe they actually are busy and people are just busier than I am. - And this new social success Claire is having, she attributes it to the strategy she's followed, toning down the louder parts of her personality. - I can't be that person with people on just meeting. I can't go up to a mom at the park and be like, "Wanna hear my Trump impression?" Like, one percent chance she wants to hear it, you know? So that's just, you know, how it is. And so even though it is a little phony, it's a temporary stage where eventually I do slowly sort of drop the mask and like people get to know me and you know, I get them nice and comfortable and then I'm like, "I want doing Trump impression." (laughing) Actually, this one couple had us over for dinner and I did the Trump impression and we have not heard from them since. So, listen to them. Listening and learning, they say that they are very busy with travel sports, which I'm told is a real thing, so I don't want to discount it. But the travel sports appeared to have begun after your favorite president made that, made the, (laughing) is so honest. (upbeat music) - Claire Haber-Harris. If you'd like to come to the party, she throws every week on the internet. You can find her at cartoons hate her. I say this with all admiration, it's just super weird hanging, not for everyone. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Surge Engine is a presentation of Odyssey who's created by me, PJ vote, and truthy Pinominee. Garrett Graham is our senior producer, Emily Maltaire is our associate producer. Our production intern is Piper Dumont. Theme, original composition, and mixing by Armin Bizarrean, fact checking this week by Nutsumi Ajasaka. Our executive producer is Leah Reese Dennis. Thanks to the rest of the team at Odyssey, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Colin Gainer, Mora Curran, Josephine Francis, Kirk Courtney, and Hillary Schab. If you have a business and would like to advertise on Surge Engine, please email us, PJ vote [email protected] subject line advertising. You'd also send your questions there, if you have a question for the show. If you would like to not hear ads on the show, you can sign up for incognito mode, our paid feed. You also get bonus episodes. You can find that feed at surgeengine.show. Your contributions there are what help us keep this whole thing running. Thank you for listening. We'll see you next week. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)