Why Does God Allow Suffering?

What an incredible grace and blessing that we have here 2,000 years before the Old Testament people didn't have this. We have this now. When you start to know that, that's when you enter into and want to give back. And that's the knowing. That's the union. That's what God wants. Well, wait a minute. God permits evil in order to bring about a greater good. Well, what is that mystery? And she said, "I think I understand now. I get to suffer with Jesus and that makes me happy." And that right there changed my life forever. This is bigger than any sort of bomb. Like, we're talking about for all of eternity and like this is the heart of Christianity. There are many, if not millions of people who know of Jesus and know about Jesus who do not know Jesus. The true path to knowing Jesus is through. Hey, everyone. Thanks for joining us on another episode here still in the new year on the Catholic gentleman. We are your host. We've got a Devon Shodd, close friend, executive director of Fathers of St. Joseph and myself, John Heinen. And so, Devon, I want to just ask you, like we said, still in the new year, we're going to be talking about suffering in this episode. But so, that we don't start with suffering, let's talk about what is bringing you joy right now. What's one thing that you can focus on that's bringing you joy? Gosh, you know I'm a melancholic, John. So, I don't think there's. No, I'm. anything is bringing joy now. Man, I don't know. You know, I think at the end of the day, it's just the gratitude, you know, for all that God is doing in my life. I've just been over the years just meditating more and more. Like, where does joy come from? And I lose my joy when I compare. I lose my joy when I measure, you know, but I gain joy or I'm afforded joy when I start to count my blessings, if you will. I start to, you know, express verbally my gratitude to God. So, I'd say, man, when I just look at my whole life, like today, I was just in prayer and I literally. It brought me. we seem like really soft and effeminate, but it really brought me to tears, man. When I realized, like, Jesus Christ heals the leper. And this is what's so fantastic about this. Like, I heard the homily is more like, Jesus could touch the leper because it would not affect him. It would not. he would not have leprosy. Somehow, he's immune to it. However, if you read the text, what does it say about Jesus? So, you've got this leper who comes to Jesus into the city, begs for the healing, Jesus heals him, and then where does Jesus end up? Jesus ends up in the desert praying. That's right, at the end. Exactly. So, you've got the leper who is banished, isolated, dying, a grotesque death, where his flesh is rotting in pain, doesn't even have a job, can't even get food, and he's totally isolated, banished, and Jesus takes his place. Yeah. That's what I'm thankful for. That's what brings me joy. I love that. There was something about that gospel reading today that touched me, and it started out by that the leper was experiencing this for many years. Yeah. And we're going to be talking about suffering, and the many years meant that he still had faith to go to Jesus. He still had trust. He hadn't become so bittered or so disdained towards the world and lost in despair for all of the rest of his life. He still had faith, and he came to our Savior, and our Savior reached forth, reached forth and touched him. Right. And I was just reflecting in my prayer time today of where do I need the Savior to reach forth? Yeah. Right. Where is mine? And then I didn't have enough time in my prayer time to go through all the areas. No, I'm joking. We didn't have the relate. We did a beautiful reflection. Well, one of the things that's bringing me joy, and I like to bring this up is because the anxieties and noises of the world are something that is always competing with my head space. I was at Mass on Sunday, and four of my seven children, my wife's pregnant with number seven, four of my seven children are of the age that they can receive Christ in the Eucharist. And they were all in front of me, and by an act of the Holy Spirit, and this brings me joy, like things were silenced, and I looked at them, and I said, "This is my mission. This is my purpose." And it was freeing, and it was a real intense piece before I was able to receive our Savior. It was incredible. And I want to thank God for that, and I want to say that that was bringing me joy. It's been bringing me joy all this week. Every time I've been going home, I've made my phone more inconvenient for me to get to. I know I bring it up on the show, make it inconvenient. I still struggle with that, so I was putting my phone in even more inconvenient spots, multiple times in my life. And I was like, "What was your phone?" And I was like, "There's long ways away. I'd have to really get up, and I'm not going to do that." So it's been a blessing to have them in my life. All right, jumping on to the show here, ultimately, we suffer because God loves us. I'm going to say that may sound backwards, but that is exactly what we're going to unpack in this episode today. We first address why God allows suffering at all, and that's the big question, why do we suffer? Why does God allow suffering? And then we're going to move into what suffering produces in a man, and how a real and authentic man learns to suffer with strength, purpose, intentionality, and faith, not as you were saying an affeminate man or a pusillonymous man, those fancy words. And so we want to get right into that. So if this is your first time listening to our show, please hit that like and subscribe button. If you've listened to us multiple times, which I know there's quite a few listeners, I'm so grateful for you, that I've listened multiple times and never hit that like and subscribe button. If you do, it helps this show. It's a great help for the show because it helps us reach more men, and we all need each other. And so that's at the heart of our mission and what we want. So please hit that like and subscribe button. If you are looking for a place to donate and support, and you want to get more of this information, head over to catholicgeneralmanplus.com, where we have over 30 courses, and we are doing new things every single month to help better the lives of men inside of catholic gentlemen plus. So I started it. Why do we suffer? And I think just to start like, who are these guys? And why should I listen to them? I don't want to make it exactly. I certainly don't want to make it a pity party, but Devon and I have both suffered. We are men that have suffered. And I will just say I've lost seven children. I've lost seven children to miscarriage, one of them I held in my arms. And so we've had to work through that. And actually before I go further, because there's the daily suffering, right? And we take up our cross daily, and I think that's so important. So you know, Francis talks about how in taking up your cross daily, what Christ said is the form of being a disciple daily. Not take up your cross every once in a while, take up your cross when it happens, but it's like it's going to be daily. And so take up your cross by weekly by weekly exactly in the rest of the time, you know, just luck. Devon, you know, when you when you approached suffering in your life, what's been that journey for you? And I know in a synopsis form because I know your story well. And many of our listeners, if you really want to go check out his conversation with Matt Fratter, his conversation with Keith Master, you can hear a lot more of that story. But there's there's a depth of suffering there, and there's definitely a journey that we've all asked, I'm assuming you've asked that question, but I absolutely have asked that question of why do we suffer? Yeah, so I think that well, my experience is is that there were stages. The first stage that I went through was that all suffering should be avoided. It's a definite evil. And that God is there to help me so that my life will be free of suffering that I will have this great life full of earthly and temporal benefits. And then there was a stage where suffering is inevitable, you know, I'm encountering things, especially as I start having a family, relationships really bring out suffering big time. But then you experience bodily suffering, mental suffering, maybe mental health suffering, there's all sorts of different types of suffering, financial suffering. But when you're in relationship, the suffering is compounded, I think. And so that second stage for me probably would be more like, "Okay, God, you are making me suffer, and why are you against me?" And then the third stage, and there's always transitions between these stages, I think, and I'm just making this up. And there can be what it probably is. But I think then the third stage is where we realize that God is privileging me with suffering. And it's a privilege and he is doing something fantastic and great in my life because I have to believe the promise that, well, first of all, that he is good, and that all that he does is good, especially he works all things for good, for those who believe they are good and in love him. And I remember reading St. Paul somewhere, I can't remember if he's a Philippians, maybe his Galatians, no, his Philippians, he says, "I think it is your honor and privilege not only to know Christ, but to suffer with and for him." And wow, that was kind of like, "Okay, what does that mean?" So I think that those were kind of like the three stages. God does not want me to suffer. He wants my life to be easy and great. I'm suffering. I've got a lot of suffering. I feel like I'm living in hell. God, you're not helping me. You must be against me. You're causing this suffering and flicking it upon me. Third stage is, God, you're good. This suffering is a privilege. You're doing something great in me. I know that it will come to fruition. Yeah, amen. Thank you, Devin. If I could just follow in the stages. I was a little bit different. I was definitely 100% avoiding suffering. I'm just the immaturity of youth that I think is always going to. Honestly, not being taught sacrifice as well. Right. If we just understood, there's a quote, St. Isaac the Syrian, "Desert father who stated that God allows suffering so as to bring us closer to his heart." And then he said, "For mankind knows of no greater way to draw into the heart of the father than through suffering." Now, I wish somebody had tried to explain that to me, but we inherited, you and I, this kind of worldview of work Christians and there's a therapeutic relationship with God and to avoid suffering. So I did. I thought if I worked out four or five days a week, if I ate healthy, if I was got plenty of sleep and stuff, then these things would help me avoid suffering because I'd be like a superhuman or something like that. And so in a way I worked towards that. You are a superhuman. I'm a demotanacious individual. Yeah, then I would say that I foolishly started falling in love with Jesus. That was not foolishly. Maybe it was. I've been a fool for many times in my life, and for many years and will continue to be. But I was falling in love with Jesus and I read St. Teresa of Avalas, parts of her way of perfection and way to perfection, way of perfection. And in there she talks about the love of suffering. And I'm like, I'm just like, I fall in love with everything Catholic, you know, newly married and falling in love with everything in the faith. And I'm just like, Lord, I need more suffering. And so I started praying to suffering very spiritually ignorant. And I think that's really important. I want to call this out. Don't do what I did. I didn't have a spiritual director at the time. I didn't have a spiritual maturity at the time. I just started praying for suffering. And she says in the book, like God will grant those who are yearning for truth and yearning for goodness. He's certain requests. And that being said, I asked for this, I'm not blaming God. I became a ceiliac, right? I fell in and I was hospitalized three times. It happened within the next year and a half. And man, I was in a way cursing God, if you will. I don't know if those words ever came out of mouth, but there was definitely an anger, like a disillusionment and not knowing how to handle this and not having the prayer life or that maturity that it was needed. And then with the loss of children, I went through all the bitterness and the numbness. And then the difficulties and sufferings with the family and my wife and all these sort of things. But you're right. I'm just getting there. There's this point over the last few years where there's like a deep love of suffering. There's like a deep, maybe appreciation is a better word of suffering in my life. I just love God so much and I love his will and I know I'm knowing and I'm experiencing how much he loves me and that he wants to bring that ultimate end in my life. And I know that and I know that ultimate end is for unity with him and for eternal unity with him. I have to say this and think this every day like this is just it's the temptations of the world are ever upon me. And so I like how you phrase that in those different stages. And so I know both of us have come up with different ways of kind of answering this question of why why do we suffer and why have we suffered. And for me, I had this in prayer over the last few days for this episode. I had this thought of we suffered because of love. We suffer with love and we suffer for love. And I want to kind of I want to kind of explain that and how I see this. So we suffer because of love. God loves us so much that he made that risk that that ultimate supreme risk of giving us free will. And in doing so, he knew that we wouldn't be robots. We wouldn't be slaves, but we would have a choice to love him or to not love him. But a loving father wants to receive love in return, not force love, right? Because the love can't be forced. And so so he because he loved us so much God who is love loved us so much he allowed that free will with the risk that we would choose to use it against him and against us, which is what we did. And then he loves us so much that he wants our eternal salvation and he knows all the vices and all the concupacins that original sin is put upon us. And so he loves us so much that he provides suffering. So as to remove us of pride and presumption as you brought to my thoughts in our show prep. And he loves us so much that he's going to he's going to humble us and suffering is a great way that we can be humbled and we can learn to lose control. And so that takes me to the next point of we suffer with love because Christ has shown us the way and he is there with us. What an incredible grace and blessing that we have here 2,000 years before the Old Testament people didn't have this we have this now we have this now this this this Christ who is a living God who's who's who's fully alive who's fully present that we get to receive in the Eucharist that we can go to an adoration that we can talk to right now that we can take spiritual Communions upon ourselves and we can enter in to that loving abode of the heart of Jesus with us. We suffer with love and Christ said if you want to be my disciple deny yourself take up your cross daily and follow after me he says after me not not follow to me or not follow for me ready says after me like he showed us the way and his way was that of thorns and rocks and whips and you know spit and crucifixion and but we have him here now the resurrected Lord who is with us now and then that is the final one that transfers to we suffer for love because all love as you and I both know requires sacrifice. I don't think love is love without sacrifice and we have Jesus who showed us that he sacrificed the ultimate on the cross he sacrificed for us he sacrificed his life out of love for us and the fathers we sacrifice out of love for our family we might sacrifice for. Mission that we love all of these sort of things and in sacrifice there is suffering and so we have to deny we have to suffer the natural carnal pleasures and temptations to consume and to possess and so. That was my long treat us I didn't expect it to be that long on on why does God allow us to suffering so if there is any listeners still here David i want to pass it over to you because your peace and your methodology is really great as well and I'd love to. I just so I was I picked up this book right before we got on it's wisdom of the Saints by Jill Hock Adles and she she just I just can read two excerpts from this real quick because I think it sets sets this very well she says that we may understand more about sin than we care to admit and the Saints fights of ecstatic or neighborly love or easy to admire. It is consoling to speculate about heaven and the prayer life of other people is always interesting and often inspiring but this is interesting she says the Saints craving for suffering however may well baffle and embarrass us and then she says down at the bomb Christian Saints must must see God's descent into suffering flesh as pointing away to follow as you just said as blessed placid record he says the Redeemer has sanctified pain in terms of supernatural economy to be. To be a saint is to be utterly convinced that all suffering that is dedicated to God creates merit and will be rewarded a thousand fold so you have to take a picture of that and send it to me yeah it's so good so good to do the show that is so good sanctified pain that what a statement yes so the love of sufferings incomprehensible it doesn't make any sense from a human nature standpoint and people think you're crazy if you begin to talk like that exactly and that's that's the foolishness and if you will of being a Christian we appear very foolish to the world but the cross is the wisdom of God so pain and suffering for the sake of the other that's what the cross is offering oneself to God in pain and suffering for the sake of another that's the cross that's the wisdom of God that's what Paul says in Corinthians so we're tapping into something is very mysterious very sacred and almost incomprehensible unless we really put on the mind of Christ because to our nature we don't want to suffer actually to our nature suffering is evil however Christ has redeemed pain and suffering he sanctified it and made it sacred so they can become one of the most powerful sources in the universe but also in the Christian's life yeah yeah no it's so good and I think I'm really grateful that you brought up the mystery of suffering and just and that we will not be able to get away from that I think and I think that's really important right I drew you know St. Thomas Aquinas in the summa says God permits evil in order to bring about a greater good okay that sounds nice but but try saying but try saying that to a parent who just lost a five-year-old child like like Paul Kim a friend and and his son Micah and but just watch Paul's videos he he understands the mystery but he's also already entering into this and the hope that is that is being formed within him and let us all keep praying for them because the grief never leaves and so but might that grief be transformed into a deeper love and a deeper hope as well and and so but but here's the thing is like well wait a minute God permits evil in order to bring about a greater good well like what is that mystery well I think one of the things that can be stated as a as a believing Catholic man is that that young Micah is up there hanging out with Jesus hanging out with Jesus and is going to be praying for many many people and who knows how many souls can be saved by the power of this of this young man and and I can speak this as somebody who has lost and held my son in my arms I've I've been there I don't want to go into it right now because the topic will get derailed and I'll get all buried again but my point is is that that a great a good can come out of it and but there's that mystery and that faith that's required to move forward in that yeah yeah I just I was speaking with the young man last night and he said to me or ask the question it's a brilliant question I've never heard a 22 year old ask this question but he said what is the difference between knowing Jesus and knowing about or knowing of Jesus like wow that's incredible and really it's amazing because this is the heart of the gospel so many of Jesus is parables and with truly I say to you I do not know you you know we like the parable to 10 virgins 10 is community that's the whole community that's the whole Christian faithful if you will five are wise five are foolish gussens says that's a five senses of sight sound you know hearing tasting touching feeling and their virginal that means these are pure in their senses human beings so they're they're the best among the best and yet five their oil is running out which Thomas quiet talks about this is charity this is a joy of conscience right of living in right relation with God so what happens they go into town supposedly to get more oil which they can't and when they return they're knocking on the door beating on the door and Christ opens it up and says I truly I don't know you now this is the heart of Christianity there are many if not millions of people who know of Jesus and know about Jesus do not do not know Jesus and I truly believe this I've been praying about this so much lately is that the true path to knowing Jesus as like I know my wife or know my best friends or whatever the true path is through suffering and solidarity with them because if you if you if you let's say no suffering no Jesus you know suffering you know Jesus because because Jesus when you start to meditate on what Jesus does for us through his suffering through his gift of self through the torrent of suffering the torrent of eternal outpouring himself when you start to know that that's when you enter into and want to give back and that's the knowing that's the union that's what God wants and so Paul Kim Sun we get it backwards because we're like in understandably for those who are left behind for Paul and his wife it's a terrible tragedy but like we hear all time oh so and so died what a tragedy however if they're in heaven that's what this whole thing is all about that is the goal and so we have to get our mindset properly ordered to be like hey like there's this great quote in here in this book it's just so so simple but uh says when it is all over you will not regret having suffered rather you will regret having suffered so little and suffered that little so badly amen that's saying it's a bastion. Amen. Oh man it wasn't incredible. I agree I have a close priest friend father wolf he always used to say pay now or pay later. Yep and and there's like an acceptance in the suffering and we're going to go into that you know let's talk briefly before we go into the pieces of the difference between God's permissive will and his sovereign will and I think this is important because you kind of bring it up like suffering is is evil right like suffering comes from evil and and God does not in his sovereign will or his ordained will he does not ordain that but he permits it and there's a greater good and a greater reason right now no we're having to talk a little bit and I don't want to fall in the heresy by any means but I'd love your I'd love your thoughts on that because like I think it's really important for us to just reflect on the fact that God didn't want a child to die right before the fall and so I'd love for you Devon just to hear your thoughts on on on those two will you are putting me on a spot. No I mean we can dialogue and we can but we're neither of us are are are theologians and so I think that I made that caveat don't chat to you to this but but look at somebody you know is yeah yes more profound but my key track brought a book so yeah yeah so let's just let's just understand what suffering is suffering is really the consequence of sin correct because be prior to sin there was no suffering in God in heaven there is no suffering okay but once God enters the drama of humanity then God suffers yeah because because self giving love in a human context produces suffering because it's rejected that was Christ we know what suffering we know what self giving love in a human context looks like because we look at the crucifix they rejected his self giving love because why did why does self giving love why is it rejected because self giving love when we see somebody who's truly self giving we look at ourselves and go man I'm selfish but that guys telling me I need to give myself away that guys tell me I need to serve the lesser that guys tell me I need to give of my time and I don't want to I want to hold on to this so crucify that guy yeah so so suffering exists though if we go back to it so think about this okay you have a good and you and that good has a good end okay so meaning purpose so water water is a good it's good end it's purpose or one of them is to hydrate you now if you divorce that good from its good end by say inhaling it through your nose you suffocate and drown so what do you have when you divorce a good from its good end you have suffering okay so we do this with sex God creates sex to be good the good end is babies in bonding and or procreation sanctification and unification unification yeah but then we insert contraception pornography abortion and all these things IV whatever and what do we do we divorce the good from its good end and therefore then we have suffering in these things teenage pregnancies infidelity affairs whatever it's like that with food it's like it with anything now collectively as a human race we have committed so many sins and so many atrocities against God that that has to be accounted for yes on the cross by Jesus Christ but we are now part of the body through Jesus's resurrection he is the head we're the body and therefore with Christ we somehow atone for suffering that is part of our job as human beings that's the same Paul right now 124 124 and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's affliction for the sake of his body that is the church yes so he is part of the body he is under the head with Christ in as the head he is suffering with Christ that's what we're called to do now permissive will versus manifest will a providential will of God I will just state that I've come to a place where I am going to just sit in the position of acknowledging that everything that comes is permitted by God and therefore I adhere to it which means I will fight for what is right and try to alleviate pain where I can but when I cannot then I embrace it for the sake of Lord I'm not saying I'm good at this I'm saying this is the idea in my mind okay so so rather than because what I did for years was oh this must be the devil oh the suffering must be oh this must be from God and therefore that which I identify as being from the devil I would kind of be against God like against God make it go away God and I wouldn't embrace it so the point is is when I can resolve to say Lord you're permitting this and I know that you can only bring about good from this that is the safest place for me because that's when I'm one with God and I can offer everything back to him safely and know with confidence he's going to do something great. I love it I'm really grateful how you broke that all up and and didn't go into deep theology. I actually brought that this book here that's you know Fonsus attaining some of you. Are you saying I'm not deep John? No I think you're deep enough for me and attaining salvation by Santa Fonsus he said right here oh what a remedy it is for every trouble that befalls us to say to Jesus Christ Lord is it thy will that I should endure the cross I accept it and will endure it as long as it pleases thee and and I think that that's so great I think that that's exactly what you were getting at you know doctor of the church here bringing up the same thing and so Devon I want you to take a moment and talk through your your piece of why we suffer and the different reasons and then we are going to go into why do men resist sufferings and what does that look like and how do we suffer better and I think honestly a lot of this in our conversation is coming naturally right there's going to be individuals you're listening and like me when you're in prayer over the last few days on suffering and for this episode you just start relating to your own life and realizing that you know our ultimate end right eternity in heaven is our ultimate end and suffering can't be separated from that ultimate end you know and but with that ultimate end it starts to it starts to take on a deeper meaning one that that in one sense we can go into a deeper understanding so I liked your off the cuff you know alliterations and things that you that you made the other day I want to give you an opportunity to talk about those yeah I mean I don't know this is certainly not exhaustive and and I didn't think too much about this so I don't want to like be like okay this is it but this really just came to me yeah like I agree with you like it's not none of these things are exhaustive all the stuff that we're talking about we could go on to different layers in all different directions okay I think a good place to begin is what keeps us from union with God and what keeps us from heaven you know and and selfishness really obviously but pride and presumption the two piece pride and presumption is what keeps Lucifer from ever embracing the faith and damning himself and same with the angels that became demons and that is precisely what damns us is pride and presumption and we talk a little bit about presumption just yeah I want you to because pride is an easier one for all of us to relate to but presumption I think is a very astute one that a bit about both of them are but but I want to okay so presumption is really an outgrowth of pride because I presume on many things so I might presume that I'm already holy or that God values me as being great or I might presume upon his mercy and say oh yeah he doesn't care about my sins and and all these terrible things I've done I just know he's going to forgive me no matter what or I presume to receive holy communion while on the state of moral sin because of course God understands I'm only human or I presume to go out on my wife because of course she's being terrible to me and I'm not having intercourse and therefore I deserve it but I just kind of presume that God's going to kind of just take care of all that so presumption oftentimes is like hey I'm just kind of above things you know and I'm going to just bank on God's mercy that it's going to just wash away everything and I'm going to apply as little effort here as possible it's very presumptuous you know and and so that's not the actual definition obviously but I think that's helpful it does yeah thank you and so so pride and presumption those are the two Ps and those exclude us from the heavenly banquet and union with God God opposes the proud and he lifts up to lowly so God's because from God's position he's like okay we've got work to do how can I extricate or eradicate or purify or clean this person of their pride and presumption so that they can become humble so I can exalt them remember God's goal is to exalt us God wants to glorify us but and God wants to have union with us these are the goals this is what he's all about so he's going to humble us through humiliations to eradicate that pride and presumption and so these are the Ps I think the you know the why does God allow suffering you know what we just said because he wants union with us so he wants to delete that pride and presumption how okay so suffering purifies us that's the first P it purifies us of our pride it purifies us of our selfishness it prepares us that's the second P it's for preparation for union with God preparation for all sorts of for great works in God it's also for punishment yeah when we're way off God will use and I hate people who said now I hate people but I hate it when people say oh God doesn't punish us yes he does read read the Bible you can't go a chapter in the Bible without finding that God punishes six I even pulled the quote I pulled a scripture 126 Hebrews 126 for the Lord my face who he loves and chastises every son whom he receives that's exactly right and I think if you go one verse later if is it 12 7 where he says son or therefore count count all suffering as discipline from the Lord that's right count all suffering as discipline from the Lord so you've got he wants to purify us he wants to prepare us he wants to punish us at times that's a form of discipline well and I think it is a form of discipline and I think that's just a really good point right so for anybody listening to this it God is not a wrathful vengeful God like that's not why he but when we use the word punishment maybe discipline might be a better to our our our average years today but that's what he's doing he's forming us right and every good father forms their child their character their integrity you know reading them of their vices and helping them increase in virtue that's what are loving infinitely loving and infinitely merciful God does for us now a little caveat he's not God is not a wrathful God but he is a God of wrath and what I mean by this is he's so is God a God of mercy or is he a God of wrath he's both so for the one who commits sin and repent he's a God of mercy for the one who commits sin and refuses to repent he's a God of wrath and what I mean by that is is the justice for sin has to come down upon the one who doesn't repent and that is wrath and that's what ex and so Christ though for those who are willing to turn to God and mercy he took that wrath upon himself yeah that's amazing that's what so horrendous and and and frightening about the cross is that Christ stood naked before the father and said place thy wrath upon me rather than them that's amazing that's amazing that is simply amazing hell exists for those who will not acknowledge that yeah because that is the highest gift of love ever and if you can't if you can't accept that if you can't acknowledge that if you can't say yeah that's love well then then yeah you I mean you're you're saying just give me wrath give me help so so yeah so that's why you remind me of saint Faustina in her diary stated something along the lines Christ told her that those who do not enter into the door of my mercy must enter into the door of my justice yes and and that's that we're going to enter in one way and and you know let it be of his mercy and let us PA Jesus right amen as it says in the requiem so yeah so God wants to purify you for union with him God wants to prepare you for union with him and prepare you for a great mission for something that you can do specifically uniquely for him to be a manifestation of his glory God will punish you if you're not repenting from your sins and God will offer through discipline of pedagogy that is a teaching because that's where we get you know my grandparents always say when you do something stupid like I would like do something I'd hurt myself and she'll put my grandma say well that's smarts doesn't it and the reason they say it's smarts is because you learn not to do it again that's the pedagogical kind of aspect of suffering is like okay I'm sinning I'm imagining that part of this suffering is because I did something evil and so Lord thank you so I'm learning not to do this evil and then I think lastly it's not a P but it's an S but it's solidarity God I find that when people suffer tremendously well my wife is excellent this like so there's this gentleman who I know I've known him for years he had cancer in his mouth and now they did the operation and now half of his face is just like paralyzed yeah and on top of it his wife has like some kind of mold allergy in which he's lost almost all her hair and almost all of her weight you know and this guy they had to move from their home because her home was full of mold et cetera et cetera and you you look at that guy and you go man that guy is suffering I don't suffer like that or like this young boy who's been through chemo and radiation for five years and now they finally come to the conclusion that nothing will work that family has suffered tremendously you know I mean you look around my wife is so good at this when these things happen around us whether it's women who are having miscarriages left and right by the way and or something like that guy with the paralyzed face her heart almost bleeds for them and she's like let's pray for them and you know let's offer sacrifice for them and it that's what suffering does Pope John Paul seconds says suffering brings about solidarity it makes us one with one another it brings out in a sense the best in us that's like you look at like why is there so much charitable giving because there's so much suffering you know why are these these people who give up their jobs and take their families to Mexico like this guy he emailed me and literally serving the poor in Mexico building houses and stuff why because they're suffering and now they're solidarity it's amazing that's the great good that God can bring about from evil I just think it's a it's a power beyond an atomic bomb right when we accept suffering and we realize that I'm just going back to Colossians here you know in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's suffering for the sake of his body that is the church like there is so much that we can do with our suffering and offering it up can quite literally get souls out of purgatory can quite literally save souls from eternal damnation can quite look I think about um um Blessed Jacinta Jacinta did she just into yeah yeah Jacinta I'm sorry when she's yeah saying to when she's 11 years old I think when she was on her deathbed she asked if everybody would leave her room so that she could die in silence by herself not for some sort of like holy unity with God but because she wanted to suffer the loss of even the those close to her that solidarity those close to her she wanted to suffer one more time for the sake of souls and and like I mean eternal salvation as was at stake I mean this is bigger than than any sort of bomb like we're talking about for all of eternity and like when we accept suffering both the benefits here and the benefits later and the benefits that we won't know until after we have gone are just unbelievable to think through and remarkable and something that we have to take very seriously as we as we set forth in all of this yeah see trees of avocés I would willingly endure all the sufferings of this world to be raised a degree higher in heaven and to possess the smallest increase of the knowledge of God's greatness wow and and blessed Henry he says suffering a short pain and long joy yeah amen it's exactly right yeah but a blip in eternity is our stint here on earth well this is really great it's humorous because I put a note in in the show notes of like hey you know reach out to us at podcast at Catholic gentleman dot com like if you have your own questions and there's the truth to that but I expected that to happen like 20 minutes earlier and so yeah we I love talking about these things we're going to move on to this next section before we do if you have questions for us we love answering them we love receiving them from you sent them to us at podcast at cathartoma dot com so now let's move straight forward into the how right we're kind of already getting into that is the reasons men resist suffering right this next section here is is why do men resist suffering and there's again this can't be exhaustive we don't have enough time and even if we did have enough time I don't think we would cover everything but the reasons why men resist suffering are are are many and I know thinking about my own life there is indeed that fear of suffering cause suffering right like this fear of that unknown that fear of that potential pain the fear of these things kept me from living and capes men from actually living when you are so afraid of something that you're not going to try it and I'm not talking about being reckless right prudence must always be a virtue within us but but if if you are afraid or you fear suffering you you what do you start doing is you start chasing after pleasure as you start chasing after comfort you you won't have difficult or hard conversations instead you'll just do control or you'll go into silence and abdication you you will you'll you'll numb you'll numb your your pain you'll numb that that potential suffering with alcohol or with noise so as to not face reality like these are all the certain things and so I think men resist suffering for many reasons but that's the kind of the one that I wanted to start with was just the general fear of suffering so Devon I'd love to hear your thoughts on I think that the greatest suffering is the fear and the avoidance of suffering because it locks us into a human paralysis in which we risk nothing it's it's self-implosive we we become a black hole self so so the greatest suffering is to fear and to avoid suffering yeah because once we embrace it we're free once we face it we're free we're and that's where really the strength of the saints lie you know so yeah so why why are we as men afraid to suffer you know we've we've got a brief kind of list we can go through really quickly but I I think the first is that we don't consider or believe the reward and there's this great quote from uh from uh oh man yeah Joseph Kafaso he says try to resemble that holy soul who wouldn't give up the least part of her sufferings so as not to lose the merit thereof we are going to receive so many rewards and so much sanctified like sanctified grace by means of suffering and like as St. Teresa we just read that quote a greater degree in heaven if we embrace our sufferings we cannot comprehend the reward because we cannot comprehend what union with Christ and God the Father and the Spirit is and so we must spend time in prayer meditating on the reward and then we will be we will want to embrace the suffering I don't make so much sense like the the man who who who is not committed to who has not um there's a word that that's escaping me but has not uh convinced himself and not persuaded himself was the word that I wanted to look for there uh not persuaded himself of this reality can't appreciate and or endure and or just even accept suffering because this this reality is is his reality so distorted right he has to persuade himself of the ultimate reward we have to we have to be convicted both in faith and in mind and in heart and in will like we have to have that and in prayer can bring that about and that's what we have to be pushing towards so I can just tell you when I when I eat that extra piece of chocolate or that whatever that food is or have that extra drink and muscle's have or whatever it is I'm doing it is because I do not believe in the reward yeah I'm not even contemplating or meditating on that I'm not even believing in it that that belief and that understanding of the eternal reward is what keeps us going and that's why I think Karl Marx and people like him just hated the Christians and said it's kind of like you know what what do you call it they're opiate of the masses yeah the opiate the mass why because they're not living for this world he so he couldn't control them they're living for the reward of eternal life and then so the second reason why I think that men are fearful of suffering is because we we don't know the terminus or the end of it or the intensity so that unknown causes us great trepidation and fear we're like man I don't know when this is going to end I don't know is this going to become more intense and that's why we you know kind of just run off to something that will numb the pain or console us rather than embracing us like Jacinta did there you know yeah yeah if I could saint Torres of Lesoux just reminded us in these moments that God will never give us more suffering than we can endure right like God is always going to be with us he's not going to give us unnecessary suffering right our suffering is going to be in all of the ways that we have talked about here and so that being said though I can't the amount of times in life that that fear of suffering because I didn't know how long is going to end like when I'm thinking about my my gluten issues you know it was just it was it was tear I was just going to eat chicken for the rest of my life I was like I'm not touching another thing for fear of that because like if that happened again who knows if it's going to be three days or five days or these sort of things and again that unknown was enough and we're not talking about years we're not talking about chronic illnesses and stuff like that and so anyways I appreciate you bringing that up yeah yeah I find though that like some my mom she suffers greatly and and I'm like but yet she's so joyful and in her illness has been decades or years I mean years and years and she doesn't know the terminus she doesn't know how it will end she doesn't know if the intense how intense is going to be from one day or another but if she had not had this suffering she would not have the joy so it's like kind of like this weird place where we're like okay I'm afraid of this but again the benefits that come from it spiritually speaking are out of this world they're being on what we can ever imagine you know and you're right though I mean like people have said that to me like when we're going through some terrible stuff people say you know because his first Corinthians was at 1310 or 1030 I can't remember God will never allow you to suffer more than you can handle them like well really okay great you know like that's hopeful you know I mean it's like so I can I'm evidently I'm capable of suffering more than I actually think I can right but I think that's the Lord he's trying to stretch us a little bit say yeah you can be more yeah you can be more with me so that's the second one and I think the third one is the reason why we're fearful of suffering is because actually we lack love we lack love of God our Savior Jesus Christ and we lack love for our neighbor because if you didn't lack love if I didn't lack love then I would be like yeah baby bring on the suffering because I want to show you Lord how much I love you you know and I want to do this for you and offered up for the sake of my brethren who are suffering or for their souls so they can be saved and all the holy souls in purgatory and so like the more that we actually love God we will like you are saying with St. Alfonso I believe we will end up actually loving suffering or St. John Viani said I prayed that the Lord would take away my crosses then I learned to love suffering and I love the cross something like that so yeah so we need to ask God for that because it is a gift you just can't conjure up love you just can't somehow pull yourself up by your bootstraps and make yourself love it's a theological gift yes there's the human capacity of love humanly by our nature but that's not what we're talking about here we're talking about theological love God's charity and we have to ask every day for that gift because that's what changes the way we have to yeah and then I think fourth is we don't want to face or acknowledge our weakness it's just way too humiliating so we want to and so what we do is we fool ourselves with this you know like so you know you got an achy breaky heart you know something happened maybe a gal broke up with you or maybe you know you just feel down on yourself and you know you don't really want to face that weakness so you go have a drink you know with one of your buddies rather than actually take it to prayer and present it to God we do this kind of thing all the time where we numb ourselves into a drunken stupor on the world's pleasures and consolations in order to avoid the ache in the pain of the heart but that ache in the pain of the heart is there because it's God saying you need me and I do and then the fifth one is that I think we're fearful that if we embrace suffering to those who've been faithful and little God will give greater responsibilities and so we're fearful that hey if I'm faithful in these little sufferings God's going to heat more on me Amen so the things in my life I brought it up before and I like to talk about this but there was this sense that if I gave myself completely over to God this was all throughout high school and into college that as a professional Trump of layer he was going to break my fingers I'd like to assume if I gave myself over to him he was going to do horrible things to my life and my outlook and my control and my in praise God he didn't do that but also praise God that he worked it through in a more magnificent way than I could have ever possibly imagined and I think there's another line that you brought up and I just Saint Alfonso said fear of suffering reveals the attachment to self more than trusting God Yeah that's it and it's like all the saints, all the scripture you know I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us and it's like all of this is true everything you're saying so I really and I laugh because the second to last one that you were talking about is still something I mean we just struggled with all these all the time right we have to take him to prayer and it's like numbing it and experiencing some momentary temporal pleasure you know it's just always more appealing in the moment and that's where virtue really lies, that's where integrity lies, that's where your strength of character you know really grows and that's where courage I think you brought that up in manly courage and what we need to but we have to take that to prayer and we have to work on that so Yeah you're right this is all about manly courage if you want to know what manly courage looks like so look at Christ in the garden you know I mean manly courage I mean here he is literally his flesh cannot help but to be anxious knowing what's about ready to befall him the scourging, the crowning of thorns, the crucifixion, all of that and his flesh is literally agitated the point he's sweating blood he's begging the Father to let the cup pass from him but what is it saying the scripture we talked about this but what does it say when the cohort led by Judas Iscariot entered the garden and demanded which one of you is Jesus and Nazarean what did he do he didn't run he didn't hide out he didn't like wait to see what would happen it says he's stepping forward I am he I am stepping forward and that is the key to manly courage is what whether whatever one of these five reasons or there's more why we fear suffering it's like to look at stare that right in the face agitated anxious fearful and go I'm just going to step forward right now in the way that God has called me a step forward it's that simple and I think once we cross that so called threshold as Christ cross that threshold in the garden from agitation and anxiousness to trust that's when the grace is poured out so when we do that that's when the grace is going to be poured out you look at the greatest saints who gave their lives and I'm I'm just talking from now from you know I'm talking smack you know because I don't I haven't lived this right like they have but just looking at the saints you see how there's this moment of trepidation or this moment of fear and then they decide to give their life they decide the face the punishment coming down from an emperor or a or a sergeant or someone who's going to persecute them and kill them like bless a Miguel pro and man it's just amazing how Miguel pro was I believe at first trembling and then he was able to fall to his knees and outstretched arms and abandon his soul to God and trust he crossed that threshold and boom he is there Lord I'm ready take me that is awesome that's man I would love it if I could do that I mean like yeah and that's manly courage yeah and we have to build up to that I actually think that's a really great segue I was thinking about talking about all the virtues that that can grow up in suffering but we've discussed to the virtues resiliency and fortitude and charity as we were talking about hope which they brought up earlier the humility right right they're the greatest of them but but let's go in and let's talk about you know so how do men begin you know to to suffer well how do men begin to accept suffering appreciate suffering ultimately love suffering and it's going to be a little bit it's going to be sister shaman shared with me about his lexio divina recently and he said that for him it's kind of like a bowl of spaghetti and a little rolling around in the ground it's it's you know it goes really well for a while and it goes back and then maybe it's a little bit over here then it goes back you know just when he's doing lexio divina and I feel like in same thing with suffering right like there will come a time in life where you will appreciate beyond accepting and then and then the next day you will not accept the suffering right like this is just just the nature of the human journey and of our fight and our struggle but I think there's a couple principles that I wanted to bring up about suffering and how men can learn to suffer well you've already got some of them so in a way we're just going to kind of be repeating ourselves but one of them is that suffering will never leave you will have suffering for the rest of your life and this is incredibly important to get well and to get right and to start choosing the daily suffering intentionally because yeah we're talking about blessed McGill Pro and we talk about you know so I mean St. Alphonse's for instance had rheumatoid arthritis right in his chin was basically sealed to his chest and and the his whiskers would just dig in and dig into his skin for just ever and I mean they just experienced not only that hunched position his brothers had to make a golden straw so that he could sip of the cup and because he couldn't say a mass for a period of time because he couldn't tilt his head back anyways a lot of a lot of intense suffering that this show he's kicked out of his the order that he founded and so there's a lot of suffering but one of the things that St. Alphonse's brought up and I don't think I'll be able to probably find it really quick but he just talked about daily suffering and he talked about how we often yeah I found it okay good he said my brother my sister God does not ask you to oh first though the preparation for that he says more over his cross some persons when they receive some spiritual consolation offer themselves to suffer as much as would endure would be endured by the martyrs racks nails and red hot irons but then they can't even endure a headache the neglect of a friend the ill temper of a relation my brother my sister God is not asking you to endure racks not hot irons not piercing nails but he desires you that you should suffer patiently this pain this contempt this annoyance a certain none would willingly go to suffer in a desert she would perform great acts of penance but yet she cannot endure such a such a one from her superior or such a one from her companion in her office but God desires that you should bear that cross which he gives her to suffer and not that which she would choose herself and I think that that's just such really good important things is that you're you're going to suffer and we're not I think a starting place is not you're not seeking out for deeper mortifications and deeper sufferings right mortifications have a place but I'm talking about just the daily crosses right now it's the headaches it's the annoyances it's the anxieties it's the worries it's the ill word it's the the stepping in something in the humbling experiences right like these sort of things are are infinite and and they we have to not only accept them but almost intentionally choose them because God is providing them to us and and we mature in this yeah Devon oh yeah I I'm just agreeing I so so the mystics Carmelite mystics especially talk about the difference between passive and active sacrifices or sufferings and so what you're talking about really is the passive ones you know yeah but I like what you're saying is because in the passivity there's an active choosing saying I choose this I accept this I will do this for you Lord you know and and so so that's the idea that's the take up your cross I just want to I want to go I was just going to say that yeah oh good go for it yeah please oh go ahead yeah well take is not something that is just a compulsory act right it's actually something that like a compulsory occurrence it's an an action we actually have to take up our cross and and there has to be that that choice that we make so it's not numb it not flee from it not you know continue to to hide from it not continue to avoid the difficult conversation you know instead just retreat that's that's not manly courage but you're you're right on so deny yourself is the active that's okay I'm going to do this for the Lord I'm going to deny myself in whatever way cold shower deny myself the heat skip this meal you're denying yourself that's the active take up your cross that cross has been placed upon you so that's a passive suffering now you take it up that's the choice to do it Christ always leaves us with the choice you can do it or you don't do it that's up to you do you love me you know it says the Peter on the shores of the see a Galilee after the resurrection do you love me will you take up this cross and feed my sheep you know and that's how we end up following him that's how we end up being a disciple you know origin I believe he said on his commentary Exodus I read this decades ago it really struck me he said accompanying on how much the Israelites suffer he said if you are not suffering it is a true sign that the devil owns you and you're damned so I agreed so like we need to look at suffering a little differently and be like man God actually chose me to experience this with him he's actually choosing me to participate in the salvation of souls Amen what a blessing what a great what a great honor I mean and it's that that's so great it's easy to talk about I mean and then when you talk to someone who when you get out of someone who really suffers like my wife she really really suffers you know and yet when I see her doing this I'm like inspired because I see and she's very joyful it's like she's very joyful amidst her sufferings I'd be miserable you know and you know but she's got this but the joy is the fruit of the suffering yeah yeah it is I mean this I just praying for all of our listeners right if you if you're still with us you know I hope you've gotten a lot out of this I'll be praying for you we need to be praying for each other because I think that that's again just in the heart of our journey is that solidarity and in that prayer and and I think that bringing this all up to prayer is so important another thing just because you brought up origin but I'm saying in Saint Teresa we see this all the time Saint Teresa of Avalos talking about inner way to perfection I'm going to get it butchered but basically it was along the lines of any person who stumbles and falls off the pathway to prayer is surely avoiding or no are surely on their way or moving away from heaven I think that's what I think there was something like that she was basically like if you stumble if you just have a couple hiccups you're not praying very well and then you just don't get back at it and you just slowly like that's a sure sign that you're you're you're now moving directly away from heaven like you're moving away from that unity and that ultimate goal and so the same thing with origin right the person who I seen a font says I'm pretty sure it was Santa font says who said basically you know a man who commits to prayer is not guaranteed heaven but a man who avoids per all together is assured of the term of damnation and it's like yeah and it was like you know basically we have to we have to we have to do this and we have to but we have to trust in our loving father that he cares about us more than we could possibly care about ourselves and we have to we have to rest in that we have to to lie in that and all of this can be upheld together and and suffering can bring about such a greater good not only in our own lives but in the lives of all those around us and the lives of of those that have yet to come and and the lives of those who gone before us and who are in purgatory right there's there's just so much unity and solidarity within all of that I mean solidarity the the the pinnacle example of solidarity with the cross is Simon of Cyrene a man resistant to what is being forced upon him he does not know this Jesus who apparently is condemned and yet he is coerced and forced into carrying his cross and I love what it actually says it says that Simon took up the cross and followed Christ so here you have Jesus who's all but dead who can hardly walk he's moving into snail's pace and that cross is grinding on Simon he can't just run up that hill with that cross with his manly speed and his strength and just get it over with he has to follow Christ at his pace and that's what Christ is asking each and every one of us do is like will you take up the cross with me will you be my Simon and will you help me to win souls eternally souls for all eternity we can't imagine what this means and and I'm guilty of this so guilty of this you know my daughter Ann and Marie I remember she came off the bus when she was in fifth grade very joyful kid all the time very joyful she she's confined to a wheelchair she can't walk she can't do anything for herself she could hardly talk at the time barely I mean she could but it's difficult to understand as I'm trying to say and she came off the bus and she was sobbing uncontrollably and and when she does that you can't understand a word she's saying and so we're trying to figure out why she's so upset and then finally it was at the beginning of dinner we're also around table she's still sobbing she we finally got out of her ascertained that some knucklehead boy at school was poking fun and told us she'd never walk and it dawned on her I'm never gonna walk she had that realization and so so I picked her up out of her wheelchair and I carried her into her bedroom and kind of held her you know as I she's kind of on my lap she's much smaller than fifth grade but she's still kind of small and she's sobbing and then her eyes open briefly and she caught sight of the crucifix on the wall in her bedroom and then gradually small came across her face and I'm like okay I know she has brain injury but why is she smiling here and she said I think I understand now I get to suffer with Jesus and that makes me happy and that right there changed my life forever she nailed it happiness joy comes from union with Christ Simon is Syreen would not have known Jesus in Rufus and Alexander his sons would have never become Christians if he had not carried the cross with Christ that's how you get to know him Devon that was so good thank you I think that's such a wonderful place for us to wrap up and what a beautiful daughter you have thanks be to God thank you for sometimes John sometimes these are also your sufferings in mind as well and sometimes taking up our cross is taking up our child and well praise God well here we're at a point in the episode of putting on the new man this is that that time where we place a challenge for each of our listeners each of our men and the challenge that I pulled this week is to say the prayer of Blessed Charles day for cold on a daily basis and so I'm actually going to put that down in the show notes where you can click on it and you can actually download it I'm going to try and put a little wallpaper together it's something we do inside of Catholic gentleman plus where you've got wallpapers that you can put on your phone so that it can remind you of that so I'm going to put together a wallpaper that says the Blessed Charles day for cold prayer like daily prayer and then you can click on it in the show notes in the description and find that prayer of abandonment there and that's abandoning in our lives and our will to God so Devon any final thoughts before we say goodbye? That prayer has been transformative in my life I pray it every day pray every morning that's how I begin my my morning prayer time is with that prayer and it's it's so beautiful because you know I'm a father I abandoned myself in your hands do with me what you will whatever you may do I thank you I'm ready for all I accept all let only your will be done in me and all your creatures I ask no more of this into your hands I commend my soul I offer it to you with all the love of my heart for I love you Lord and so need to give myself surrender myself into your hands without reserve and with boundless confidence and I love this part for you are my father this is like total trust it's like that has changed me so much I love that guy I had no idea so for our listeners I had no idea I just learned something along with you that Devon praises every morning wow well there's there's God in his Providence uniting us and and all our listeners so yeah thank you Devon what a joy talking about suffering and and getting to share and experience this mystery and in this truth with you today amen brother amen well as we end each of our episodes be a man be a saint and suffer well