Why Do I Feel So Insecure In My Relationships...? Dr. Amir Levine

When we find the secure space for ourselves, I call it living secure mode, it actually has an amazing effect on our longevity. Each insecure person causes us to age by nine months on a cellular level. And it's incremental to the more insecure people like that you have in your life, but actually a way to actually slow down aging is to really create that secure mode. So we can start with dating because that's where you're going to decide about who is that person who's going to be in your life. We have an incredible guest in Amelieveen here. Psychiatrist, neuroscientist, author of Attached and the New Book Secure. We're in Spidegator, right, that bit. First I came across this whole attachment style by chance. Like I've never learned about it in my clinical work as a psychiatrist. It just happened by chance I was going through a breakup. And there I read like these two huge textbooks about adult attachment. And there like in the academic lingo was like this gold mine about these attachment styles that all of a sudden like a light bulb went in my head. Hi guys, welcome back to Why do I we're going to explore something that affects millions of people. Something called the avoidant anxious attachment dynamic. And we're going to look to understand how we can all be more secure in our relationships. And we're going to try and do this in a way that you've probably never heard before. But we're not just going to interview him about attachment theory. We're bringing him into our lives. We're going to ask him to help us understand why we do the things we do. Now long term viewers of the podcast will know that I always talk about my own avoidance. It crops up a lot. I've had to spend a huge amount of time working through that. But what I wanted to do today was give you guys two perspectives. So we have the slightly anxiously attached. That's how I'm brand love that anxious one. Who is a really good panoramic and is going to give us a different perspective. We're going to try and decode the cycles that so many of us seem to be stuck in in our relationships. So guys welcome and I'm here. It's so good to have you sat today. Why is that here with us? I'm here to help you figure out how to work out. I think we've even called it the existence of boredom trap. It's really something that people fall into because we have these different attachment styles. The anxious, avoidance and secure. And it's like a script that we're having in our head. But they're not the same scripts. They're actually sometimes diametrically opposed scripts. So how do you learn to live with those different attitudes and ways of seeing the world in a way that can bring you together? Rather than set you apart? That's my main goal today. That's awesome. Thank you. We were just talking before we started shooting about your work and particularly the first book, Attach, right? Which has become a part of everyone's vernacular, particularly on social media. It's literally the Bible for a relationship. Yes, I feel. It's like my go to that I recommend everyone. Without having any relationship struggles. Right. One's part, you tell the right that book. What's it you tell? So attached, I really first came across this whole attachment styles by chance. It just happened by chance. I was going through a breakup and in my work in my residency as a child psychiatrist. I was working in children. He's more understood in doing some attachment in kids. So we were doing some attachment therapy with the actually mothers that were trauma survivors and their kids. And I love the words so much that it is something you never do. They give you this recommended reading list that no one has time to read your resident. You're on call. I read the whole reading list from beginning to end. And there like in the academic lingo was like this gold mine about these attachment styles that all of a sudden like really it's like a light bulb went in my head. It's like wow because I was going through a breakup and it's like all of a sudden it really laid it out there for me. Why didn't things didn't work out between us? Wow. And I really had this understanding. Wow, that's incredible. Now I understand better. I have to say, a caveat. Did it make the pain go away? It was a very, very painful breakup. It didn't make the pain exactly go away. It made me understand things better. It really helped in some ways. But it didn't make the pain go away because I didn't really realize you didn't give me the way to become more secure. So that's where this next book comes in. It kind of takes it to the next level. Like what can we do to live with those attachment styles like you're avoiding you anxious? Okay, this is the animal that we are. Now how do we live with this animal? Interesting. Yeah, because I think that's the thing. I think it was so useful for me to read the book when I was feeling extremely anxiously attached. And I was saying, there's something in just being able to rationalize it a bit more and be like, "Okay, I feel this way because of this." And it wasn't so much making me secure, but just having that level of understanding of why I behaved this way. It kind of made it easier to process and made me feel more secure. Right. Oftentimes what we do, especially people who have an anxious attachment style, like I've coined this new term in Secure in the new book, and I call it Attachment Gas Lighting. And there's like the internal gas lighting that we do to ourselves and the gas lighting the others do to us. And basically what they say. Because I think the very basis of it, having an anxious attachment style, and now as I was researching to write this new book, the data is just unbelievable. Because it just shows you that it's in a way to superpower. You can see things and sense things in the environment that others can't. But it also comes at a price because then you do see things. You can't see anything. Yeah, like energy shifts and you're like, "We're very, you see things exactly." So how do you live it at enough in time? People say, "Oh, I shouldn't let this get to me. I'm too sensitive." But then you're trying to fight your biology. And in this new book, I'm really trying to teach you how to lean into your biology and find how it can be a superpower and diffuse the other side that makes it more difficult. All right. Shall we give off a bit of an insight, live into where? Yeah, yeah. Where these attachment stars might come from. I know that we could both do hours on this. I know, we're going to need a timer on this. Right, one minute. Let's go. We're still stuck to it from each of us. I've done a lot of work on myself to understand why I'm so avoidant. And it's really important to do that work. And what I found out was that it was all around attachment as a kid. It was about role models, about my dad in particular, not being able to step up and be a present father. And that had a huge impact on me as a kid. It made me feel so rejected, so abandoned. And so how I'd show up as an adult in relationships would be, I'd always kind of hold myself back a little bit. I'd always save a bit of myself for me because I was so worried that I'd get treated by my romantic partner the same way that my dad treated me. And so independence for me was incredibly important. I thought that represented freedom. And for so much of my life, like I thought, what makes a good life is about travel, about seeing the world, all of those kind of things. I didn't even put relationships into the mix or to it. It's classic. You know, I know you're just grounded. It's like a white book, avoidant and yes, right. This is the thing, but you know, they touch words, my beautiful partners here, and we have a very secure relationship, but it's because I've had to do a lot of work and really reprioritise what I think is important in life. So that's kind of my story and then live. Again, mine's, I asked, opposite end of this fact, and I was an anxiousy attached person. So when I was younger, I was diagnosed with leukemia. So I spent a lot of time in hospitals, a lot of time out of school away from my friends. I think my friends then, I came back to school, they all had new friends. I was like out of the picture. And so I think I constantly had this idea that I'm replaceable. Like, they're going to go find better. Like that's a conscious, like a recurring thought that I would have when it came to relationships and an underlying fear. But my family is actually very close, like very, very close. And I think perhaps I expect that level of closeness from a relationship, and my parents have an incredible relationship. They're securely married, but I think because of that, relationships are so important. Like quite the opposite. You know, my, I want what my parents have, and I'm sometimes like, as my bar too high, especially in this day and age, it seems like near and possible to have just a healthy relationship, like they have, by definitely think having had that experience when I was in hospital, then contributed after reading the book I did reflecting. But in relationships, the funny thing is, I have been secure, and I've been incredibly anxious. And that was one big thing that I think I realized is the person that you're with, can that push you one way or the other? Totally. Totally. So that's part of what this new book actually, there's been advancement also in the science. And really everything that you described is just so important. And I'll try to break it down a bit by bit because like it's just so rich, everything, because the way that he works is that we can have more than one attachment style. And we can have different attachment styles with different people. And in fact, I have a, the quiz in the book, and also I have a quiz online on my website. Actually, there's a whole drop down menu where you can do my sibling with my family. I know. With my parents, with my friends, with my coworker, you can actually do, like you can do like each other and see what your attachment style is with each other. Even there's a, like, We have attachment styles with our pet. So there's that I put it because I have a dog. Yeah. And so you can really, and then at the end result, you get a map. I call it the attachment topography, rather than an attachment style. And you can see how your whole social environment is built up and how, and where, who are the secure people in your life, and who actually sort of like bring out the more anxious, the more avoidant in you. And actually we use that, because you really describe the whole new type of therapy, which are called secure priming therapy or secure therapy. That's the beginning step of how to start changing towards being more secure. It's to sort of get a visualization of your attachment styles. So that's the beginning. But what you said about your dad, and then also about how you shift it towards more secure, like to become more secure in your romantic relationship. And what you said about friendships, early on, those are very, very important details that I'll come back to you a little bit later. You'll see, because it's like some of the science, it's just like, we'll blow you, it's like, it's a mind blowing about that. Amazing. I'm really interested in how this shows up and dating. Like that's the first thing that I think people come to. And I've read the new book in my eye, and I understand that this sort of secure attachment style can benefit in so many different parts of your life. But I thought maybe we could start with that. Yeah. Because-- Yeah, we can start with dating, because that's a ground zero. Yeah. And that's where it all happens. That's hurtle of thought. No, no. Actually, I just covered-- you think that dating and romantic relationships are that important. But you know how many people, like when they have difficult friendships, how much it really upsets people, like difficult-- in-laws relationships, all of that affects us. And in fact, there's one study that showed that when we have these insecure attachment styles, when we find that's a pure space for ourselves, I call it living insecure mode, it actually has an amazing effect on our longevity. And each insecure person actually causes us to age by nine months on a cellular level. And it's incremental. So the more insecure people like that you have in your life, the more like they age, we put all these creams-- I don't know, it's been hundreds of dollars on creams. But actually, a way to actually slow down aging is to really create that secure mode. So we can start with dating, because that's where you're going to decide about who is that person who's going to be in your life. Yeah. And I suppose-- I mean, my first question is, I feel like avoidance get a really bad rep. And we did speak about this before. No, they do. Sometimes they're like brand avoidance. Especially on social media, they're so misunderstood. Could you articulate a little bit for our viewers what avoidance and normally characterized by? So first of all, the way that you describe avoidance, it's just like great, because it's like really thinking, not putting relationships as a priority. Like you said, oh, I'm thinking about travel. And it's like thinking about being self-sufficient. Think here in my own problem. And just like really being out there in the world, taking care of things on my own. Exactly. It's like that's kind of like their modus operantes, right? And also having an expectation that your partner is able to do those things too, right? So a big one for me was, I would never be like, if my partner asked me something, I'd be like, why can't you just do that yourself? Like it's not hard. It's just making a cup of coffee. You took the words out of my mouth. I guess. Literally. There are three things that I, you know, in this book, I feel like I make amends to the avoidance in this world, because in that other book, like, and you can go on Reddit and you'll see people like avoidance sometimes really rant on about how they actually made them feel bad because they made me like so, like you're just saying that I'm not good. They're saying that I'm not going to be able to be close. Like what is the point of all this? But in this book, I make amends to the avoidance in this world, because since then, I've worked a lot with the people who are avoidant and I learned they're suffering and they're plight of wanting that closeness but then feeling the difficulty of getting there. But oftentimes, it's simpler than people think. And what would you just say? It's just so perfect because that's one, it's the first pitfall. I described three pitfalls. And the one, the first one is called hill die self. And what I mean is by healing die self is oftentimes, it's exactly the way that you said it. Avoidance, I used to take care of their own problems. If there's an issue, they deal with it. If something happens, they solve it. But they're around 25% of the population. The rest of us, when we have a problem or an issue, oftentimes, like if something hurts or something happened to us, we seek guidance from others. We reach out to others so they can help us, like they can sue us, give us some advice, help us come down. We're very social species, so we tend to do that. And that's most people. We didn't have an attachment hierarchy in our head. Something, even for you, if something really, really bad happened to you, you would reach out to something, but it would have to be like, you really have to be bad. So, and you know exactly who you're gonna reach out to. We have an attachment hierarchy in our head. But avoidance, they mostly do it on their own. So when you come to them with your problem, they're like, what do you want from me? Like just the way that you said it. Like, deal with it yourself. Yeah. But on be known to them, what do they do? Say that's where you have to understand attachment logic. On be known to them, what they do is they really are, like turning all the fire against them. Because if I go to you and have a problem, and you're like pushing me away, I forget about the problem that I had. All of a sudden, you now become the problem. Yeah. Because you're like, you've cut off that connection, and you're not helping me. And then you magnify it a hundred times, even like, don't care so much about the problem. I start arguing with you, and yelling with you. And it's just like, and all you needed to do is understand that you're the minority. You're like the minority, minority report. You're like the odd one out. And the rest 75% of the population need a little bit reassurance. But the funny thing is the attachment, it's not very, like it doesn't need a lot. It just needs a little bit. It's like, oh, yeah, I'm so sorry here, come. Let me give you a hug. It's terrible what happened to you. And so that's kind of like the way. And if you give that little bit, then you get the space that you want. Because actually what you're doing is the opposite of what you need. You turn all the attention on you by pushing them away. So that's the heal myself thing that avoidance falling through. I could just, this resonates for me so much. Yes. I would almost sit as a burden that I would need to say something to a partner like, hey, I really understand that you feel indifficult must be tough for you, and do something for them. And it wasn't because I didn't want to. Because I wouldn't need it myself. Exactly. I saw it as a weakness, you know? But it has really changed over the years. So yeah, I would say in, I think I'm avoidant in front. Yes. You could be. That sort of thing. I think you feel out that question there. You might be talking, yeah, you deal with it yourself, honey. I don't want to like sort of push it on me. When I was going through my breakup, like I was like, get on with it myself. You would ask me about it. I'll get on with it. But then when my friends would come to me about a guide and respond to them and they were upset. I was like, I didn't even come to you when I was going through like a breakup. What do I do in this? And since it's not always get like agitated, because I was like, it feels unequal, but I know that's on me because I could use them and they would have been great. But I didn't go to them for that. I like bottled it up. But then in relationships, very different. Really? Yeah. You see, that's where it gets very nuanced. And that's sort of trying to really show in this notebook that it's much more nuanced than people think. But the same logic runs through all of these different relationships. So even with your friends, as long as you say, I understand, and then there's different ways to actually deal with it that makes it easier. So you find ways to show up for them. So for example, for avoidance, it's harder to have like this face conversation and it just feels too close. So sometimes going on a walk or exercising together, or are you laughing? I'm finding that funny in me because-- Tell me, tell me. I run a men's community. It's what I spend most of my time doing that. It's a community of 1,200 men. And we called it shoulder to shoulder, for that exact reason. Because my hypothesis, you're the expert, is that men skew to avoidance more than women do. The reason why we called it shoulder shoulders because I tie contact with men, we find it really tough. We find it really intimidating. And so when we walk together, we do the play golf. We do a walk. It's so much easier to open up that way. Yeah, because it is. Yeah. I think it's just like the way-- And I have to say, there's also plenty of avoidance women. But it demands skew avoidance more than women do. And there's a lot of-- Also, there's the majority of both men and women are secure than God for all of us, because they help us become more secure. But he knows also-- I'm sure that you're also secure with some people in your life. And I'm sure that you are too. I don't know. You can find, I'm very secure with my pet, with Charlie, for example. It's just hard not to. And that's actually a very good example, because we tend to be very forgiving and really give leeway to our pet. Whatever he does, he's like an angel. I'm like, what's the queer? So he doesn't yet exactly-- So he doesn't mean it. And so you have this idea that they're good inside. So that's kind of a secure approach. I think most men-- there are also a lot of anxious men. And there's also avoidance women. But in our culture, we tend to create avoidance with masculinity and anxiousness with more. And that's actually where he trips a lot of women. I have to say, because a lot of women, when they meet a secure man, they're like, I don't know about this guy. Yeah. They don't see that because they're like they tend to be more expressive. They're less sort of reserved. They give more freely of themselves and it's like because we quate and it's not their fault. Women's world, it's because they don't equate it with enough mass collinity. They're like, I don't know about this guy. Meanwhile, this is like such a catch for you because they can really help you. Like you can build the relationship that you describe between your mom and your dad. Yeah. Oh, interesting. Wow. And so to bring about to the day, sorry, I feel like all I'm doing is talking about my end of wood. It's very, very sad. And it's that thing. Because I've bought it. Don't get a voice anxious. I feel like get older like they get it like people feel bad for them and ticked off. Yeah. I'm going to win. I'm going to get a grip yourselves. Yeah, we're here like help. Exposing all our problems online. Where is the audience? We're like, no, yeah, you're going to feel it nice. And they have no, yeah, who's going to help you? Who's going to hear their morning play? Exactly. But my question around the day thing was, we're in a good mood. I live there. Ghosting, love bombing, all of these things, which people talk about so much around modern dating at the moment. For me, they are all forms of avoidance. Is they're all about, wouldn't it? If it's ghosting or even love bombing, it's about feeling some sort of connection. And then either not having the balls to say it's not for me or it being too intense. So something like love bombing, you've created this environment where you then have to deliver on that expectation you've created for your partner. And so you'd rather just walk away. Yeah. That's what I think love bombing is. Well, I was about to say love bombing gets an anxious attachment going. Yeah, sorry. Excuse me. Because you were then like, oh my god, they're obsessing me. And it is the worst thing in the world for an anxious attachment. Because you experience that closest. And I think for me, my anxious attachment doesn't come up so much on surface level dating. It's when I open myself up to a person and become more vulnerable. And I feel like love bombing would give that window where I feel safe enough to do that. And then suddenly it's like they're off. They're gone because they freak out or panic or yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think the way that I think about it is really more from a point. So everything that you mentioned is also really. It's I'm amazed by it because you're taking the words right out of my right right out of my mouth for because that's the second pitfall that avoidance often falling to is I call it in the book not respecting the attachment and homeostasis, which is like I wish I had called it now in different name because it sounds like such a scientific name. No, but I know it's basically the attachment baseline. But I know why I called it homeostasis because we're we are physical beings. And as a biological being, there's this always this need for biological systems to reach a baseline. There's always this draw we want to base that we want stability. It's about stability. So what happens is I'll give an example like an anxious and avoidance go on the they start dating and then they go on weekend, get away together. They spend an amazing time together. They go to restaurants. They like even they have one like they buy it like like like like by the like they buy her gifts. All of these amazing stuff that happens. Then Monday comes along. So usually he will text her on Monday. And because like but the being the avoidance like there's so much close to see forgets to text her on Monday. So she's like, wow, I'm not getting a text on Monday. This is it. So here's the the anxious script kicks in. This is it. I've opened up. We've been close. This is usually what happens. I feel like they're going to go like he's starting to back away. There's change your mind like all of that starts to grow through their mind. They like so you'll like, oh, should I text or not text? I don't know what to do. You send a text but they don't even see it. So they don't reply to you in the evening. They call you. You're already like he's like upset me. You answered the phone and you called on the phone. And they're like, what happened? Like, no, you haven't texted me all day. And like, what do you mean? I was just working. I didn't even think about that. No, I know what's happening. And then is the avoidance. You're like, what the, I don't know. Can I use expelled tips here? What the fuck is going on? I just gave you so much. We spend this whole weekend together. I went out of my way to be there for you. And even that's not enough for you. Now you want more. It's like, I don't know if this is going to work for me because this person is so needy. And then you don't really understand what you did wrong when there's like such a simple logic that he didn't pay attention. And again, it's the attachment logic. But if people don't know it, they don't know how they fell into this familiar trap. So what I have basically with attachment, the way that it works, you can't carry it over. It's not like credit that you can tell. Okay, we've created those closeness. Now I get the extra credits for the next week. No, the way that it's a surveillance mechanism. It's a nervous, like there are nervous system. It's a surveillance because that's how we feel safe in the world. Yeah. So from an attachment perspective, like the fact that you find that you were together all these weekend. But the fact that I didn't get a text that I usually get on Monday, that sort of triggers the alarm. And it doesn't matter how much time. So if you understand that it's an avoidant, you'll know, okay, I need to, especially on Monday, then I'm coming back to text because I need to keep that baseline going because otherwise it's going to trigger them. Or let's say you forgot and then they do reach out to you. Then you're like, oh, I'm so sorry, I forgot to text you. Yeah. Because like knowing again ahead of time to sort of like quiet, that's the, it's like an radar. And so once you know you learn those tricks, you learn how to circumvent all these familiar things that happen all the time. Yeah. And so what would a secure person be instead of avoidant after a weekend like that? Would they text right away? Would they? Oh, yeah, usually they text right away. Yeah. So the thing is, if they didn't text right away, if you'll text them and if you'll be called with them and they say, hey, I'm so sorry. Like you wouldn't have that defensive response, like what if fuck do you want from me? What's wrong? Stay away. You're like, like sort of too demanding and too neat. Yeah. Because it's that's the script that you have in your head. They avoidant don't have that script at all. They're like, oh, yeah, I'm so sorry, I forgot. Let me make it up to you. Yeah, yeah. But you as an agent, yeah, so, and usually they don't even forget. And it's just like it doesn't really often doesn't come up. They, they're very easy. They know how to, I have to say, really in the course of writing this book, I've come to fall in love with the secures of this world because they're just so good in relationships and they have a way of diffusing conflict very, very in a really, really cool way. Yeah. It's interesting because in that scenario, just outlining, I would also suggest that a secure person would also be able to go a whole day without receiving a text and it not made them feel. For sure. For sure, I'm telling you what I'm with you. It probably wouldn't even notice that you didn't text them. Yeah. They would notice it. So, which tells me that avoidance about the anxious stuff. I'm not like, what the heck is that? Of course. That's so interesting. Okay, we're all blessed. But I think about it. But the thing is, so here's where it comes to really understanding our biology and now trying to fight with our biology, but learning to live with our biology because I had this, I had a patient, I only saw him once, this super wealthy person who made a ton of money in fine and trading. Yeah. And he came after a woman that he was dating ghosted him and he was just so heartbroken and so upset. And we had one session and like I said, everything was going on and I tried to explain to him, like, no, this is like, look, you can't really, this is something. This is a certain biology that you have to learn to learn to live and I can show you different ways and different, like all these different tools of how to make it work for you. And he said, no, no, I just want you to extract it out of my head. I don't want that anxious attachment anymore. But then I told him, but look, the fact that you have all these wealth, it's because of that sort of more anxious attachment because it's again, it's a being able to see things and have the sensitivity to the environment that other people don't have. So you being able to see certain trends in the market and bet on that before anybody else could see, like, really served you in an amazing way. So if you were to get rid of that, you would get rid of that as well. You wouldn't be able to see and sense things in the way that other people can't. That's something. So yeah, so that's why it's like, you have that biology. Now how, what do you do about it? Yeah, I'm walking with it. Should we talk a little bit about where this stuff comes from? Because that's what I'm really interested in. Yeah, I'm actually really interested in this. And I'm interested in how it shows up in different ways of friendship and relationships. Yeah, like my gut feel would be that it comes from childhood, right? But maybe that's not the case. Yeah, I'm glad that you're asking that. But some of the, that's one of the biggest things that I was also surprised about. It's just like, really looking. That's why I left science so much and that's why I became a scientist. It really, like it shows you things in the way that you least expected them. So it's not that it's much more nuanced than we used to think. And they did some, there's several studies. These are studies are very hard to do, but there are several studies where they followed people for like 30 years and they saw what they were like, what happened to them as children as children and now as an adult and their adult attachment styles. And they find that actually their contribution. And that's why I also am so glad that you mentioned the friendships. Yeah. Like one particular study that came out in 2026 found that the maternal contribution, they didn't find it, but they're the maternal contribution for the, the Delta attachment style was about 3%, 3%, and actually friendships, childhood friendships was 11%. Wow. But both are not big, right? 11% and 3%, that's not much. Like there's another 90% that other things that contribute our Delta attachment style. Both are not meaningful. They have an effect, but it's not that big. So yeah. I know. Right? Yeah. Where is it coming from? So I think I actually see that. I've come to see it as a very, very promising because it means that as an Uber social species, we're very malleable and we can shift like you actually said how much you've shifted, which is really, and that's really good news. Like we, because this is our biggest asset as a species, our ability to collaborate. It's not, we're not particularly strong animals, but yet we can survive in the North Ball. We made it to the moon. We, we're not in the middle of the Fucha and anymore in the, in the top of the Fucha and only because we can collaborate so well together. Otherwise, we'd still be sitting here and like, oh my, is a tiger coming through. You know, it's like, we won't be hiding in the bush. We won't be sitting here talking to each other. So it doesn't make sense that everything will be fixated like sorely on because we need that agility. Yeah. And we need to sort of, to have risen to where we have our, our social brain needs to be super agile. And that's the North's findings really show how like we constantly, a brain constantly surveys our environment and changes its prediction. It's, it's tricky because it usually will discount information and like stick to what it knows. But if you present it with enough information to the contrary, then you will change the script. Like your script has changed a little bit. Yeah. Like in here, yeah. And your script, I would say actually has changed by sticking out being, well, wanting to cover obviously being with different people with different attachments to one of us, but someone that was a voiden, it actually forced me to work through it. And even though I was still anxious, I became a lot less anxious as a relationship went on and he definitely became more secure. But we were still anxious and avoidin, but it was like we kind of came a bit more closer to the middle. And I now feel more secure in dating as a result. Because I guess I've learned how to cope a bit with those, the attachments that I have. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And they're almost like what we were talking about, it's almost like rejection therapy. Yeah. Like where you get used to experiencing that so much that you realize it's maybe it's not a threat, maybe it's just something I have to live with. Yeah. And though now I now we're talking about like no texting and forgetting to end all of this stuff, I'm like, I don't think I'll settle for that. I think it was because we're in a relationship so long. I tell you why. Yeah. So no, so the way here's that here's how I see it now. What I've learned and what this whole secure priming therapy is about. And I even start the book with a story about myself is that we all, and that's some of the even psychedelic theory says that we all have secure representations inside us, but I call it like secure kernels, different experiences that we've had that actually leave left a secure mark within us. And part of the work that we do in this new type of therapy is actually not only focus on the difficult, I mean, there of course, we talk about that too, not only focus on the difficult things, but also bring up, like mentioned, some of the amazing experiences that people have had, the secure experiences that left a mark on us. So part of what I really encourage people to do when you go dating is to really cut through the chase very early on and do a secure intervention. And I call it a specific tool, I call it a carp intervention and I can explain in a minute. And so you really want to figure out, you want to see if you can summon the secure part from the other person. And you give them instructions, you give them here's the way to do it. Yeah, you're setting your expectations for that relationship, right? You're setting your setting the ground rules for what your brain needs to feel safe in the world. Wow. But not just in dating, even more important, but in every area of your life. Because I think that's the thing, the thing with dating is you can get so far in and then you find out that they're avoidant, but then you can do. But then you're screwed because you're already like, yeah, yeah, you already, especially as an anxious person, you're like, I'm in and I'm going to make a walk. That's how my room works. And people with an anxious attachment style have this, I call it a sticky attachment. It's more like avoidance. It's more like you have, you don't have an off switch, like an off switch for the relationship just doesn't like, it doesn't happen. You do avoidance can turn it off and sort of move on, which is like, can be an asset. But for anxious, even with friendships, it's very, very hard to turn that there's no off switch. So the way to set the ground rules, you have to learn about what I've come to call the five pillars of a secure life, which is you have to, you want to be yourself to be that and then also to teach and expect others to be that way with you. You have to be consistent, available and responsive and then reliable and predictable. And so that's carpe. I know it's a mouthful, but it's really consistent, available and responsive and you have to be that way yourself and you have to sort of, you have to teach others to be that way with you. So when you're dating, I would have, I would even put it on my profile. I, for me, it's very important that people are consistent, available and reliable in all my life, not just in dating. I do this. This is the way I show up for the people in my life. And that's what I want people. That's how I want people to show up for me. And then if they can do it, that's good, but if they can't and then you have to move on, especially if you were anxious. This was the bit I found a bit challenging about the Book of Mary was it was pretty kind of cut through, you know, when we talk about people in your life who don't give you those things and I get it in a dating context where that person doesn't mean anything to you, but I have friends that I've known for a long time and I know that they don't show up for me like that. And I'm like, God, there's this loyalty that I have towards them. Even though I know they don't see me the way that I want them to see me, I don't think they make me feel secure. You know, so it's that you're kind of contrasting to things because I'm loyal towards them, but I also know that maybe longer time they're not the right people for me. I'm happy that you're challenging me because I've thought about it and that's sort of the second part is that I came up with a tool to deal exactly with what you described and I call it Walt tennis with love. This is the second tool. I have a tool for everything, not for everything, but I really put a lot of thought into it and it like, it really comes out of like a decade of working in this framework. So Walt tennis with, have you ever played tennis against the wall? Yes, sure. Like, so basically, oh, bam, it's a whatever. It's another person, another. So in Walt tennis with love, you are the wall. And so whatever is being served to you, you return with similar velocity the same way when it's dished to you, but you're the wall. You don't initiate. So, but with love. So I have a friend who I'm doing Walt tennis with love with because we used to, we've been friends for 20 years and at times it was a difficult relationship and even there's I think a year and a half that we didn't talk to each other, which was actually very painful. And now it's Walt tennis with love. And so you can see I can show you my text. I text him high. I don't text him. It's the wall. I can't text. He texts me high. I text him back. You're right away high. And we goes by. He texts me another eye. I text him high. Two days go by. Then he calls me all of a sudden. I answer because I want to talk to him. And so we talk and it's really nice. And then we, when I feel like I want to get off the phone, we get off the phone. I don't extend a conversation. I like, I really leave it under wall. Yeah. But with love. And it really made the relationship so much more manageable. I don't have, I used to call him like if I needed help, but he like that healed myself. Like he would always like sort of fall into that pitfall of that healed I self. It's like, what do you want from me? But then I would get upset. And I wouldn't call him. There would be hot and cold. It would be all this, all this drama. Now when we remember that I told you to do that quiz and see all the people in your life. If I have a problem in my life or I need support, I'm going to turn. I'm not going to turn to him. Yeah. I have this other list of people in my life that I'm going to call. And I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to my sister. There's a hole in my partner. And then, but he actually preserved the relationship. It gave it the room that he should have with and detoxified it basically. And you suggest that only works on avoidance because if you did that with an anxious person, I have one friend who is definitely very anxious to see a touch when it comes to friendships. If I took that approach with her, she would freak out. No, no, no. So you only do that when the other person is not carved with you when they're not consistent available and responsive. If she is consistent available and responsive, then, then no, then you can't really do that because she feels after crying or like she will expect reciprocity. So if my friend had told me, Hey, how come you're not calling me? So then he's inviting me to go and so I'm done. Like that's part of the wall. So I will call more fine. I can't just like I really take they said the the tempo for the relationship. Yeah. And I find my need because my need for connectedness more effective connectedness and more secure way to connect found the way in other areas. Because remember how I told you that those troubled relationships, they can shorten your life here like nine months each. I don't want that. Like sell there literally. God. I want to say. I thought I'm going to put my clogs next week. Just about that. You know? It's like you're in a secure relationship. Fine. Make me back. This is fascinating. I'd love all this stuff. I just find it so interesting to talk about it. So interesting. And evaluate all of my relationships through this. Yeah. Then lens. Yeah. So now you can learn to show up like in the more carpe way through your friend. Yeah. And that's the issue of what I find such a weird dynamic for me is I definitely think I'm avoidant in my friend. I sound like it to me. Yeah. Like why do you come to me? What do you want for me? Yeah. But then in a relationship, I'm like, give me more. Like I need more reassurance. But also you describe something that when you went through a breakup, you did it on your own. You didn't ask for enough. So that's also avoidant. Yeah. You isolated yourself. Do you think that anxious and avoidant can actually be closer than we think? Do you see it as a line or a rehearsal? Yes, it can also change it to like insecure and secure. Okay. And they can lump them together as insecure and in fact in the research, oftentimes they do that. But I think, but you know what actually now interested me because and I thought that maybe that's something that also happened to you with a breakup. So I'm going to ask you about that because I think oftentimes what happens, these are at such a difficult moment in those breakups that and I describe it in the book that we are afraid to ask for help because we've been there. We've asked for help so many times and we've described the person so badly and then we go back to them. Yeah. That we feel that we can really go back again and do it again because we've burnt our I described it in the book. We burnt our social bridges by describing them in the most horrible way when we're very, very upset. Yeah. And it's like once I tell my mom that there's no going back. Suddenly, everything comes out the woodworks, every slight issue that was in the relationship. You're then telling your friends this and then you feel shaming going back. But do you think then you don't open up to people because you're kind of holding on to the relationship? So a lot of these things may happen because it's more like I don't want to I don't want to tell people what's going on. Yeah. I don't want to reveal because then I have to be accountable or and I know that it's to painful to leave. Yeah. So I should probably keep it to myself. Yeah. There's all these different things that may come up with that. It can be and then you become isolated and that makes the breakup even harder and then makes you want to go back to that person more. Yeah. Well, what's interesting when it comes to me and breakups is I will leave a relationship when it is on its last legs. Like I will drag out and I will hold on and keep holding on and keep hoping. Even though deep down I know I need to break up with them. I will sometimes stay for like a year. And is that an action? It's not unusual. It's very it is more anxious. But I also actually secure people can stay on for a long, long time. Whereas with me, the first time I travel and I'm gone. Yeah. You know, the first big argument we have and I'm not where she's not the person for me until my current relationship. I'm just not. So what change in the relationship? A lot of things. I mean, it was going to be my the big question with all of this stuff is we've talked about the awareness, we've talked about the traits, how do you change it? And I mean, I'd love to share a bit about my journey because it was a lot of reading, which really, really helped me understand. It was like reading a it was like looking at the mirror reading your first book and it was a lot of therapy. And it was just rethinking how what my priorities were in life and starting to build closer relationships step by step, which just gave me so much. And the big revelation for me was this idea of service to others and how when I was young, I could even fathom the idea of helping someone else. It was incredibly selfish because what happened with my dad? I felt like everyone was at the take of my age of yeet, but I noticed through these little minor interactions with people that it felt really good to do things for others. And I'm the happiest I've ever been now and that's because my life is dedicated to helping people. And it feels incredible. It feels like such a good feeling and the work I do with men has improved my romantic relationships and measurably. That is the thing that I would say which is how more than anything else is understanding the benefits, stepping up for other people. Well, you're giving me goosebumps actually because it's so powerful. What you describe, very touching because it's just like this work and how, but that's the promise of how we can really transform our attachment style and transform ourselves through those small interactions. I think one example that I have is I think it was on the Back Shepherd podcast and he actually describes how the first time that when he was with his current wife, they were dating and they were sitting on the couch and he was like, "Honey, can you get me a glass of water?" And he was like looking and it's like, in his mind, it was like, "Bitch, get it yourself." I don't know if he said, "Bitch, get it yourself." It's like, "Get it yourself." It's like, "Why are you trying to take advantage of me?" But then he had that awareness, "Wait a second. Maybe she's not out to get me." Maybe there's an opportunity here for me here to learn something new that this is how you do it or there's a give and take and I can do things for my partner and it doesn't mean that I'm like, I'm being taken advantage of that I'm a pushover and then he got up and got the thing. It was a transitional, transformational moment for him and I'm glad that you said that because that's really another very important principle on this book. There's that carpe and then just as important and there's just only two acronyms there is those micro interactions that we have in our daily life which oftentimes people don't think that are very important to change but actually if you understand the brain from a neuroscience perspective, you know how crucial they are for us to change and I've called them the seemingly insignificant minor interactions of everyday life or in short, simmies. So those simmies are the minor interactions that we go through every day. It's like, even now that's why I even told you before that I don't think talking about the weather is a cliche. It's a way to connect with someone else and our brain loves that connectedness. It really creates that's the biggest longevity hack basically that we have. We just don't only make us feel really good because it does. It makes us feel that life is more meaningful when we're hyper connected. It gives us more self-esteem. I was surprised by reading all that research. I thought that self-esteem or how much life is meaningful or that I'm more in control over my life. These are things that I have to do with me, not with how my environment, but it has to do with how connected we are. So the way what you're describing that creating that connectedness world for yourself through all those simmies and how much it made you feel better, it all agrees exactly with the science and the tools that I'm actually really trying to teach people, okay, how do you create that secure bubble for yourself? Yeah, wow. I actually was going to ask you a question on because when you have an anxious touch, when you get that like gut feeling, anxiety feeling sometimes, it's like a body response. I think it's trying to differentiate when you're dating between gut instinct and your anxiety of the anxious attachment being set off because that might be a nice person, lovely person, secure person. You might struggle with anxiety feeling and it's like whether you trust that as, "Oh, that's just my anxious attachment playing up or is that gut instinct of that, that not the right person for me?" So that's a great question. So what I like to say, especially for someone who has an anxious attachment, that it is a gut instinct, but what he tells you to do, he tells you to now send out a probe to test the environment and see what you're going to get. Is the other person going to able to meet you where you need them to meet you? So you basically do that carpentry mention and you do that, I'll give you an example. There's one of my patients in my practice. She hooked up with a guy on Tinder, just like a one-night stand and they had an amazing time together. They really hit it off together. So then went off on their Maryways and then a few days, I think maybe a week later, they hooked up again. And again, they could feel that there's something there. But in between those two times that they hooked up, he didn't really reply a lot to her texts and he ignored her a lot. And so before he left on the second day, they spent the night together, she told him, "Look, for me, it's very important that people, I'm very consistent, available and responsive for the people in my life." And for me, it's very important that people will be consistent, available and responsive because if you don't, it's just going to make, if I try to get any touch of you and you don't reply in some way, you don't answer, I know it's going to, I can't control it, I'm going to be hitting up your phone. And I just don't like that about myself. So if it's going to work, like you're going to, like you're going to. you're gonna have to be more responsive. And he said, "You know, I'm actually notoriously not responsive, even all my friends compare that all of my friends complain that I ignore them, but I'm gonna try. I'm really gonna give it a try." And now, like 10 years later and two kids later, that he's been able to really, and he still doesn't really text his friends back, but he's been able to step up. And whenever he has him, like when he doesn't call or anything like that, she will hit up his phone. Like she's calling like 10 times in a row. - He's aware of that, and he's like, "Hey babe, I'm sorry, I'm gonna answer like, so like, what do you want from me?" "Ramamamamam." - He doesn't go there because, and when you talk to him, he says, "You know, when she asked me, like when she put it like that, that it's something that like her brain needs." And then like she doesn't, then it didn't feel like such a huge ask.