“Why Did You Kill My Father?” — Ex-Mafia Underboss Reveals the Call | PBD Podcast #865

They might be panicking about me and they may say, "Let's take this month's [bleep] out." I would advise them, "Make sure you don't miss." The Gravatt will tell you how he became a rat. Why were you upset with me sitting with Junior? I wouldn't sit with him for no money. What is it going to be an argument? I don't want to talk. I'll sit with Patrick but David and talk. Say the [bleep] truth. Talk. Don't lie to him because he's got a big file. You want to get your [bleep] voice out? I think the world would want to see to sit down. John Gotti was acquitted on racketeering charges. He sat down with the government. I certainly wasn't going to go to prison on him who's in my lawyer and all the rest of the lawyers to back the government's case. What the [bleep] is that? If that's not a rat move, I don't know what it is. And I don't give a [bleep] with your stories. This is how ice-cold Samus, how capable he is that he'll take a 16-year-old's life. That's what they would say about you. You made it sound like some 16-year-old kid is coming home with his [bleep] box. We got them now for no [bleep] reason. I confess everything I did. So I'm not saying I'm not part of this head. I'm pissed he's part of the 19 murders. Did any family member ever confront you? One day my phone went and he says, "Is this Samus?" I said, "Yes." And he says, "Why did you kill him?" And I said, "I'm going to tell you the whole story. Don't interrupt. Don't hang on." He knew exactly what that meant. Did the mob ever use the word '86? Anybody who said this as Patrick is dumb is [bleep] crazy. Because look at him with these dudes. He's trying to make me talk. I'm asking you a question about April. Listen, man. Have you ever been in the same room? What do you mean? Dinner, playing cards, domino, chess. What was the occasion? I can't tell you. I tell you this guy's brilliant. You've never talked about this with Comedale. The stuff from the '90s, you've never talked about that. Now you got me and everybody else watching, curious. I want everything to come out the truth. I want to leave my life what I was before the middle after. Because I think I owe that to my people who love me and around me, friends, that I care about. So I'm going to ask an indirect way of helping our guys, our production team that works so hard, get a raise. Do you want to help them get a raise? This is how you can help us out. 49% of you watch our podcast that our editors work so hard. Producers, cutters, all of them, our production team. 32 of them that work here. They work very, very hard to deliver a good quality to you. If you enjoy our show and you want to help this thing get bigger. So we can take our talent that we have in house that support this production all the time. And maybe even give them a raise. Then please subscribe to the channel that allows us to get more viewership. And then directly it makes bigger opportunities for our current team that we have. Thank you so much. So today we have a very famous YouTuber here with us, Big YouTuber. Samuitable Gravano, it's great to have you here. My pleasure. Maybe you were known for something else back in the days. But today, YouTuber, content creator, can you imagine are your YouTubers? Sometimes I can't even believe it. I'm publicly talking, I'm in shock. I never talked, especially when I got in the mob. You're supposed to be quiet. I never talk now. I'm talking all over the place. You know, a lot of times when people tell me, "How is Samu a YouTuber?" And I say, "Listen, the world's a safer place with Samu doing YouTube. You want Samu as a YouTuber. You want him as a content creator. Not anything else." But about a year or a half ago, I'm doing a podcast with this one guy. I don't know if you know more or not. His name is John. And after I do this podcast with him, this sit down with him. Next thing you know, my insurance company calls me on my life insurance. Say, "Listen, we're worried about your health and your life." I said, "Tell me why." He says, "Because there's this guy who reacted to your sit-down with John Jr., named Samu do Bo Gervano, who is furious with you. Why were you upset with me sitting with Jr.? Me? Yeah. Here's the reason why I'm going to tell you the reason. I listen to the interview. I listen to you a lot. Not all the time, but a lot. Most of the time. You were the first person I actually ever did a live interview with. If you remember. Of course. So I listen to you a lot. We have a good relationship. But John Jr. was telling you things that were completely so fake. It was incredible. And I know you have the capability of doing a fact check. I saw you in what battles with who's the guy who used to show himself to young girls? Weiner, Anthony Weiner. Anthony Weiner. And you battle it out. I said, "This guy was a real guy." Patrick, what the flow of it? I said, "What guy?" I said, "What if he hits Patrick?" I said, "Are you crazy? If he hits Patrick, Patrick's going to wipe the floor with him." I said, "It's not even a match." But anyway, he's telling you that I wasn't in the camp with John Gotti when we killed Castelaro. Now that's so crazy. Why would I admit to that? Number one. Number two, the NYPD did their own investigation. We were in the cart. The feds did it. We were in the cart together. They did all kinds of research. Everybody. And they were there. Now, when I went on trials with the feds, they never wanted to get caught in the light. So anytime I said anything in a trial, they always just jumped all over it and chucked it. Every which way you can because they don't want to get caught normally or blow the case that they're working on. And 100% of the times I came up exactly what it was. I did the Johnny Keys hit a long time ago. So it's a great story. They did research on it. They chucked it. There's even guys in his crew when we left before he got killed who cooperated later and told the same exact story I told. He has, you know, so I don't lie about these stories. I don't exaggerate. I tell it like it is. So this kid to say I wasn't in the car with his father. And he says his father swore on his dead son. And I think that's so brutal to say that. The same thing when they killed the neighbor. He literally swore on his dead father son, the father, told him this, this. So you're making your father a liar. People know that if that's what he told you, he was lying. And to swear on his dead son, you made him look even worse. You're not helping him by doing that. You know, you could say did it. And I don't understand why he would say I wasn't in that thing. So what do you think his outcome is of saying you're not in that thing? Is he trying to say you're not as tough? You're not as involved? You're not involved in a big hit. Like what's the big deal of him saying that? I don't know. In his thing, everything he could say is to make me look like a liar or to put me down like I wasn't what I was supposed to do. I mean, you even got them now saying that well, John was going to kill him. Meaning me. Now, John was on tape telling guys in the car there's a tape. You could look it up. Is that if I'm not around, say me's the boss. So he's saying that to his people. Doesn't know he's on tape. And you're saying he was going to kill me? It's so ridiculous to say that. I mean, you could say a lot of things, I guess. And I can understand the kid. He has things about his father wants to say something positive about his father. But to lie over and over and over and over again, look, they did the Gadi movie with the son. Every single, something mashed potatoes or sweet potatoes or whatever, everybody evaluates the show, gave it a zero. And because that heat got in court in 50 million lives, when a guy comes out of the dark and shoots this guy who was a kidnapper. They made the father do that. The father didn't do that. He didn't do it. There was another guy who did that. So you and John, you and Junior haven't spoken. No. When's the last time the two of you guys spoke? Actually, before I cooperate. Before you cooperate. Yes. So we're talking 40 years, 30 years. Yeah, 30 something years. 40 years, man. And your interaction with him was like an uncle, nephew type of relationship. What was the relationship with you and Junior? No, I didn't even have a relationship with him. So how many times have you met him? How many times did you meet Junior? I met him a bunch of times that he was around his dad and stuff. I was the guy who made him. Him and Mikey Scars. John came to me. I was already. I think the under boss, when he got made, and he said, "Ah, sorry, sorry." I mean, it's nepotism if I make my own son. I'm going to make, if there's going to be eight, nine guys, you do to several moment and you make them. And one of them was Mikey Scars, one of them was his son. So I said, OK, I made them. Later on, he wanted to make his son a captain. And that bothered a lot of people, but he's the boss. And I went down with Franklin Lucacio and made him a captain. Now, the kid had people around him who, even John Gotti, again, is on tape. And he's saying, my son has got these weird names. Where's he getting these kids? Who are these kids? A light is one of them and a whole bunch of kids. So, and John is disturbed at the people that he's running with. And then I hit that took place. It was about Franklin Lucacio. It was about Louis de Bono. Got hit. You want to hit it? Louis de Bono, I had a clash within earlier in life. They separated us. He has captained us for my life. Paul didn't give it to him. They broke us up. Same family. Same family. Before they had our castle on them. Now, later on, when Casano and I was done, Frankie and Chico got killed. Joe Pinyy, we, me and John, said, Piny, let him take Frankie's spot. Shooting has started. Everybody's shaking. He's an old time and he could cause them to relax. And we used him. They turned around and he's just doing things. And he tells me one day, Sammy, I'd like you to go partners with Louis de Bono because John needs a place where he's going to show, make him money and stuff like that. So I said, I had a bad beef with him. I don't want to be partners with him. He said, he will never do it anymore. He's got a history of that. But he won't do it no more. And big action now, number one, John is the boss here and the two years will be partners with him. He'll never do anything like that. It is Louis, a made man, is he a cop or what's his rank? He's a made guy. So nothing big yet. He's just a made guy. He's a made guy. Louis de Bono. Louis de Bono. Is he bringing money in? Is he? Somebody that's a former? No, not really. I mean, he brings some things in. That's him. And anyway, he convinces me to go partners with him. I go partners with him. And he does the same thing. And we're doing a job with him. So he was a union contractor. He could be the job, get the job as a union contractor. Then he'd give it to me. I was non-union. The union won't bottom me. I could get away with it. So instead of him paying like $30 an hour for union guys, I'm now paying $18 an hour for non-union, I give him like $22. So instead of paying $30, he's paying $22, $7.8 an hour with the workers, $1, $2, I'm doing it. My workers are earning, and I'm stopping the union from bothering him. So everything is going to work. So it's working, and one day I'm in my office with my brother-in-law already, Gara Follham, and we're talking, and we're losing money. And I don't get it. So I sit down with this guy, Joey Madonia, who was our partner in this drywall business I had with him, and my brother-in-law, and we're trying to figure out how are we losing money? Why? So we're looking through the supplies and everything. And I look at a sheet of drywall, four by ten. How much is that? Wow, that seems like a big number. And I said to my brother, "Call this number yard up, tell them that you're a sucker right off the street, you own a house, you want to buy eight ten sheets of sheet rock. You're not going to get no discounts, you're not going to get none." How much is a sheet for you as in nobody? He gets the number. It's seven in change. I'm paying nine ten in change, and I'm paying thousands of sheets of drywall. I said, "There it is, we're being robbed right there." So I said, "Let's go to the place, the little one beyond, and bring the guy in here, want to talk to him." And he comes in the bono, "No, the lumber yard guy. I bring him in and I said down, and I said, "Listen, I want to ask you some questions, I want you to tell me the truth, I'm not going to hurt you, but I want the truth, and I'm going to warn you this. I know a lot of he is, so he says, "All right, all right, and he's nervous." He knows who you are. Yeah. Okay. And is he a the bono guy? No, he's just a lumber yard. No, owns the lumber yard. He owns the lumber yard? Yeah. What's his relationship with the bono? I'm going to tell you. Okay. So anyway, we started talking, and I said, "I have my bono call, a lumber yard, and he got a price of seven in change, a board. Like a sucker. One of my five, six sheets of, he said, "Yeah, that's the price. I'm buying thousands of sheets, and I'm getting wholesale prices, and I'm paying $2, $3 a sheet more. How is that possible?" He said, "Send me that. You said to do that. I said to do that." Yeah, your partner is with the bono right. Yeah. He said, "The bono owes me six or seven hundred thousand, the previous work. And tells this guy, overcharge on every sheet, whatever you make on that deducted from what I own." Got it. So he used your relationship to pay off his $600,000 of debt. Yes. So every time I'm working with him. And this is the bono guy is the same guy that worked on the World Trade Center. This construction company apparently worked on the World Trade Center, and he was found killed in the garage or something like that. Yes. Okay. Yes. So I told John, I said, "Joe Pinty and John, he's robbing us. He's robbing us." So John don't want to hear it. He says, "Well, I don't think so. Well, here it is in black and white." He says, "I'm going to look into it." So he looks into it and he looks into the guy's robbing us. He tells his son, John Jr., kill him. You have the contract. You're a captain now, Bobby Borello, and a few guys, that John put with him. He's got a team that can do this. Kill him. The kid goes out and he's looking for him, can't find him nowhere. He's out of the country, Dad. John tells me and Franky LeCasio. He's out of the country. He's on tape when we got arrested. The only reason I killed Louis de Bono is that what Sammy said. Who says that? He's blame. No, John. Senior. Senior. I mean, so and would every one of these other people, and I'll give you that too. So anyway, we can't get him. I go and I go to Joey, Modonia. I had given him the company, walked away from the company because I got a bigger position. I said, "You let me in when I was down. Come up. I can't really work with you that much anymore." But the company is yours. If I could recommend a job to you, just make sure I get an envelope. But the company is yours. So now I see Joey, Modonia again, and he tells me, "Sammy, if you can get me some drywall work off of Louis de Bono, he's got a couple of billion dollars worth of work that he's going to get." Really billion. And this is what, you're 80 what, 80. In the 80s, when he dies. So. So he's a big tamer. He's doing a big job. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I was doing five million dollars a day. The World Trade Center. He did the World Trade Center. He was one of the guys involved in building a World Trade Center. Yeah, yeah. So the mafia was involved in building the drywall of the World Trade Center. Yeah, without a doubt. If it went to Louis de Bono, we were, that was me too, and we would do that. So anyway, I said, he's out of the country. He doesn't know what's going on that we're going to kill him. So I said, he's out of the country, Joey. If he comes back, when he comes back, I'll talk to him if I could get a job. I'll bring it over to you. He tells me. said, "No," said me. He's not out of the country. What are you talking about? He says he's in the World Trade Center in his office every day. I said, "Are you sure?" He said, "Send me pox right in the World Trade Center. With his car on the back, on the plate, it says the bono. That's where he pox every day." Which building? He tells me the building. I'm dumbfounded. Okay. As soon as I talk to him, if I could get some work, I'll send it. Of course, he's not in the life. There's a legitimate kid. I don't tell him nothing. He's not a kid. He's a man. But so anyway, I leave and I went big, Louis Valerio and we're driving down New York to go to John's Club. We stopped at a place, a restaurant near the World Trade Center and I have to get these guys, one of the guys working for me. Give him an envelope to bring to another family to give them the envelope from us. So he says, "Okay." He said, "Send me a note. See, the World Trade Center was on the construction." And he says, "You see this dirt parking lot? You know, I have that. It's expensive to park in there. I park cars here. I'm making a bundle. Wow, it sounds good." He said, "The bono is a friend of ours, right?" Meaning a man guy. I said, "Yeah, of course." He's parking in the World Trade Center and I can make him park here. I'll charge him almost nothing. I said, "Where is he parked?" And he tells me the same place. Basement garage. In the garage, yeah. And I says, "Okay, great." I wrote, "Build it." So I said, "Okay, great. I appreciate it. I'll get back to you." Of course, he doesn't know. So I don't tell him either. I get in the car and we go down New York, Franklin, the Casios there. He knows what's going on a little bit. He's with the family as well. Yeah, he's, yeah. Is he a heavyweight? He knows what's going on, but he don't know what I just found out. So I go down and I take a walk with Frankie. I said, "Listen to this. John Jr.'s got the contract. He's swearing to us that he's had a country, he's fracking him out of the country. He's fucking right in the World Trade Center in his own office every day and he's parking in the World Trade Center, building whatever, one, two, whatever it was. And this is where, and his car has the bono on the back. Frankie, the Casios is blown away. Oh my god. His car has the bono on the license plate. Yeah, the license plate says the bono. Isn't that a bad move for a mobster to put your money on? He's a hopefully gentleman guy here for mobster. Yeah, it's not a good move. But anyway, that's what he's got. Super wealthy guy. This guy's got money. Yeah, a ton of money. And so Frankie tells me, she said, "What are you going to do?" When John gets here, I'm going to tell him. This kid don't even know what the fuck he's talking about. He's in fucking Europe. He's tracking him in Europe. He's fucking right here. A couple of miles away from where we are right now. He's standing. Sure enough, that's all Frankie knows. The Casio. At this point, does Frankie trust you more? Does he, is he John's guy or is he your guy? Well, he's, he's, he's both of our guy. But is he more 70, 30 John? Is he? Maybe. Okay. Maybe. Yeah. But we're talking about a situation. Sure. Not into it with our relationship. So John comes, and I tell him, just what I told you. Senior. Senior. I said, he's there. He looks at me like, I can't be. My son is tracking him. Well, do you want me to take care of this? I know where he's parking and where he is. Do you want me to take care of it? He'll be dead tomorrow. No. No. I'll take care of this. Okay. He takes care of it that he gives his son a hollering like, what the fuck you will bring in an information? His where he is. I know where he is. He's in the World Trade Circuit. Dispalking to, that's where it is. Get Bobby O'Reilly. And I forget the other guy's name right now. Get them to kill Charles. Charlie Canese. Yes. Yes. Get them to kill the guy right away. Now we look like jerks. And he, to me, and to Frank Hill or Cassie. Now, it may be a week went by. They get another guy and I was kid. And they go in the World Trade Circuit in the spot, in the place, and they kill them. Exactly in that parking spot, exactly in that building, exactly what I was telling them. And lo and behold, the Irish kid, I can't take his name, but you could look him up. He cooperates after and tells the story of it. So who was he with? If he's Irish, who was he with? He was probably with either Charlie, or the other guy. But he's not, of course, as an Irish, you're not tied to the mob. You're, you're, you're maybe a street guy, but you're not tied to. Right. You're not part of him. You could be tied to the mob, but you're not a main guy. Got it. And maybe he's making his bones. He's doing a hit, but whatever he wants, I'll flip it. How quickly does he flip? I don't remember, but it took a while, but it was, he's the guy who put it on record on who did what? And he knows juniors involved. He knows where the orders came from. He knows the whole thing. Yeah. And he knows that these guys, Bobby Borello and Jean and this kid are going to take care of it. Now, I don't know who shoots what and how does what. I don't know. I never ask the next time I hear about this, it's on tape where he's complaining about me. And frankly, the Casio is charged with the murder. Now, Frankie, the Casio did nothing. He knew what was going on. Wasn't part of the murder in any way, shape or form. I cooperated, I leave. I tell the government's story. Frankie, the Casio is pinched. And they're going to go on trial. I cooperated. I left. I don't want to go through that whole story again, but I left. What does it left me? I left them on. I cooperated. I'm gone. This is all happening at the same time. I have to. Okay. In stages. What is time? What's the time line? I cooperated while in anyone. Okay. Something like that. When did this happen? You cooperated. One, but when did the the bono? When did that happen? When you got killed? You're before that. 89. You checked to see when you got killed. When did the bono get killed? What's the exact moment? I'm trying to see the timeline of how quickly those things go together. So 1990. Yeah. And you cooperate. What you're 89? In 90. One. One. Okay. Got it. So a little less than a year later. Okay. I'm really trying to see where you're going. Yeah. Here's where I'm going. Is that we lost our lawyers in the case. And we were going to replace them. Efflee Bailey was going to represent John. We had a meeting, a coal meeting. We were all in the meeting. And Efflee Bailey says, John, you're all over this tape. You killed this guy. You killed that guy. You did just that and the other thing. You destroyed Sammy on this tape. You can't beat this case. I could maybe try to make a plea agreement. He says, no, I have an idea. And Efflee Bailey tells him, what's your idea? I'm going to throw Sammy and Frankie under the bus. Efflee Bailey leaves. Never comes back. Years later, Jerry Capice is talking to me, you know, Jerry Capice is talking to me. He says, Sammy, I was out of prison a long time. He says, are you sitting down? I said, what happened? He said, Efflee Bailey came in and did an interview with me. And I asked him, why do you represent John? Why don't you just leave and never go back? He said, I wanted nothing to do with setting up Sammy or Frank Eliasio. Efflee Bailey said this. Efflee Bailey. You know who's the first person and I ever interviewed on value team. Ever? And he was great. And that's what he said and you could check that with Jerry PC Cause he wrote an article about it Yeah, and he tells me that And I said wow That's this is unbelievable how this whole thing is coming together with junior So this is nothing He couldn't even do a fucking hit was right under his nose and he's lying about That the guys is fucking you were not in the car or Castelano or all all these things he's so fucking full of shit That's why I wouldn't sit with him for no money. He says he wouldn't say for me. I wouldn't sit with him That would that would that would that would tie the whole thing up if the two of you guys sat down Yeah, and I you know, I wonder when I sit there and think about it Who is less likely to do it? Obviously I've asked Johnny I've asked junior even then when we went back and forth Right But you know, I've talked to the family and you know, I've spent time with them and you know, we had the conversation I think the world would want to see the sit down now whether that happens or not who knows that's a different conversation Yeah, now you wouldn't do it though. No, I wouldn't do it now He said I wouldn't do it if my mind gets it right. He says I wouldn't sit with him meaning me if you gave me a million dollars, right? Well, I wouldn't do it if you gave me 750,000 but if you gave me a million I might do it That is so funny. I would do it. So I don't know if I would do that I mean he lies like for what's the sense of him? Well, you know, it was kind of like when you and Michael set them together when the most special conversations was when Mario and I are sitting there and you and Michael are going back and forth. Yeah, you know, which one I'm talking Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. We wouldn't even face to face. We were on a zoom or something like that because mafia states was coming out But you know what it was? It was like bone gone moved on everybody went to the next story and people get to pick and choose very few people Are gonna be like I'm you know if I'm a Sammy guy. I'm a Sammy guy from a junior guy. I'm gonna stay junior guy. It's not gonna change much Maybe the 5-10% are gonna be in the middle to say I side with Sammy I side with junior but I think for the sake of the history books It would be a good conversation to see the two of you guys sit down together And if it does ever happen, I know one good guy who would do one hell of a job not two of them. I know one guy only and you know that guy Yeah, you know what I'm saying like I there's only one guy that could do that. Yeah, well I think I could do that Whatever you know even said in one of these things that he quit the life. He didn't want to be part of the life He sat down with the government There's people now talking about him He cooperated You sit with the government and you proper you know what that is come on you sit down with the government your profit You talk about your roommate guy you should ask you know maybe he never took the stand probably But you profit you sat when you talking with you you know you could say Joe blow is a drug deal That's all You're not gonna take the stand and I can do anything sure right now one of the sudden the government's watching Joe blow Sooner or later a year goes by Joe blow gets pins. He doesn't even know how why because he don't know what somebody said and it's never been released And that's just what he did so he's an informant just like anybody else is an informant he could say whatever he wants to say You know a lot of guys don't like that. I hate that fucking label But I know I'm stuck with it because of what I did now Some people say I don't blame me. I would do the same thing but it's still no matter what That's the label that you get stuck with and I'm stuck with it. I'm not proud of it. I don't like it I never liked it but I certainly wasn't gonna go to prison on him Using my lawyer and all the rest of the lawyers to back the government's case the government puts out a case to put me away We fight it. We do whatever we got to do. Mm-hmm. He's backing it I'm not gonna say that John got it's a rat. I'm not gonna say that But what the fuck is that if that's that a rat move. I don't know what is You're gonna naturally have My lawyer and all the rest of the lawyers Turn around and say You heard the government's tapes and what the government saying Poor John got it. It's not him. You hear him complaining about Sammy. Sammy's the guy who did all these things Now I'm part of them. No question about it. I cooperated. I confessed to whatever I did in those things But to say I mean some of the things he said were just so outlandish He even talked about When they his father Not as far as direct but gave orders to kill the guy who killed his son in the car accident And I heard John junior say well, that's my dad. If you heard our family. It's what he's gonna do He didn't say he didn't do it. He admitted he did it And I don't give a fuck what your story is This is an interesting guy was in a car accident. He didn't mean to kill the kid Now I'm sure I would be sick if that happened to my son But my son did get hit by a car, same as your son. He didn't die. The neighbor was petrified I told Louis to send me bring that guy over to me. The guy came to me. I said what did I hear you worried about me? We're all about what was a car accident did you hit my son on purpose? No, then why are you worried? When John told me about the guy, the accident, I had told him, John, I loved him like a brother. Don't do this bro. He's a legitimate guy. It was a car accident. People love you. If you killed this guy, people are gonna hate you. You can't kill an interesting guy in a car accident. He came to your fucking house to apologize. You can't kill this guy. But he did it anyway. He went on vacation with his wife and I think you know that story. It's no news to you. And he twisted it that, well, my father, that's him. Then you called your father or a monster. Not me. You did. You know what they would say if they were sitting here, they would ask you a question you're not gonna like. Yeah, go either junior or the sister or any one of them. Then because when I had you on the first time, they attacked my non-stop and said, why don't you ask him about the 16 year old innocent boy that Alan, you know, Kaiser, you know, why don't you ask him about that? Sammy wants to act like what do we do? He shouldn't have taken that person out. He was a kid, right? Or the brother-in-law. That's an ice cold killer. That's what the sister would say if they were sitting here. But first of all, I did answer that. I did not shoot him. I'm on the head and I'm responsible for the head. But all I said is that when we went, we were looking for the other guy. That is name. And we were hunting him. He came out of the house with this kid. They make him, he's coming home with schoolbooks under his arm. That's all bullshit. He came out with this kid. The kid, the 16 year old kid, wasn't a target. He was nothing. I had a kiss. My entire foot all the way up to my thigh. My leg was broken in three places. Now, when we seen the kid come back out, the guy we were going to shoot, Louis Millino had a shotgun on his lap. I had a pistol laying in the back seat. And Tato's nephew was driving. I said, "Louie, the door is opening. Just open your window and tell him where lost? Where is Evan U.P.? We were on King's Highway. Where's Evan U.P.? The plan was when he walks over to give you advice on how to get to Evan U.P. I will come up and I will shoot him right in his fucking face. And I will kill him. This is the guy who jumped me with a bunch of bikers in my club, broke my leg. I was looking to kill him. The guy that did that is not the 16 year old. Exactly. Now, when he's walking to the car and Louis is asking him, "I'm laying down." And this kid is on the side. He catches the vibe. He must have known the fight, the Friday night, that they jumped and made guy. They heard him. So he's Larry. When Louis is from that question, he turns and starts to run. Louis opens the door real quick and throws a shot with the shotgun. There's not double-o-buck or slugs. It's the BBs. Like you get to that after. And it hits him in the back. we see him. He goes forward but he don't stop running. Tottles nephew, Danny. Screams to Louis. The kid, instead of going back in the house, freezing or running the other way, he's running at Louis. And Danny, you're old. Yes. And Danny yells, "Louie, you're back. I'm here, Louis, you're back. I come up. I'm trying to get my gun. If I could shoot him, I will." But I can't get to him. The angle I'm in laying on there with my leg all fucked up, I couldn't get the angle to shoot him. But Louis turned and blessed that once in the chest, he fell to the ground and blessed him another one I think in the head for it. And he's dead. And we take off. Never said that. I'm in it. I'm part of it. All I said is that's the way it happened. And then they start saying, well, he's blaming Louis to put the weight on Louis. What fucking weight? I'm penstoned. I put him pushing on weight. I'm penced, he's part of the 19 motors. I didn't say, hey, wait a minute. I didn't do it. So I'm not. He's on my list. I didn't say I didn't do it. Well, I said, I didn't shoot him personally, like they made it sound. They made it sound like some 16 year old kid is coming home with his fucking books. And we got them not me for no fucking reason. Do they make the claim that you shot him? Yes. So so Junior makes the claim that you were not in the car when you guys took out Castelana, but when it comes down to this case, you're the one that shot Alan Kaiser. Yes, which is bullshit again. Now, all I say is that there's got to be an autopsy cops got it. He was there cops could say, okay, he was shot shot. Not with a pistol, which was a saying what Sammy had. It was shot with a shotgun. So that's all I'm saying. I didn't dump the weight on Louis. Malino, why would I? So and that's after Louis was that I believe the conversations that they're talking about after Louis was that. So why would I dump it on him for what? What ended up being a consequences of Alan Kaiser? What ended up happening? Not the neatest part of my 19. Got it. Nobody did time because of that. That wasn't something that nobody did time about it. I didn't rather nobody including Tato's nephew Danny. So the original now you're hearing is I'm saying Danny because Tato was going to propose this kid. And I went to Tato and I said, do you know that this kid took a test to be a cop? Tato. He said, no, who told you that? Check with your family. He checked with his family and he never made them. The kid could be dead by now. I don't even know. I never heard of it anymore. Because I knew that Tato was going to make him, because he was on a hit with us. And I never gave him up. And so that's the story. So I'm not saying I wasn't on the hit. I'm not saying I wouldn't have shot him. No, they would say to you, they their argument would be when they would call me. It would be, this is how ice cold Sam he is. How capable he is that he'll take a 16 year old's life. So when you say, you know, I get it. Yeah, I get it. But it's not true. So they could say, whatever they want to say. But what part of that would you disagree with? Like at that point, were you an ice cold killer that you would you would have taken anybody if the orders came in? If the orders came in, went out of doubt. No, orders came in for me to kill this kid. So, so you wouldn't dispute the fact that you were an ice cold killer at that time. Oh, no, no, that's why I come, I confessed to everything I did. Whether it was a fight, a murder, what part I took. I didn't shoot with the fucking Castellano people either. I was more of a planer than anything else. Always? Always. It started years ago before I even got made. Title called me in one day and he says, "Sin, I want to know something." Well, I understand that every time you go in a jewelry store, a store, you had a first guy in, you pull out the gun, everybody get on the fucking ground. Why are you the fucking first guy who does that? I says because my grandma, Ali boy, it's tough as nails and he's got my back. I'm comfortable with that. He said, "You're right." Your gunman is tough as nails. He was in another family in the Genoese. He said, "But he's reactive. If he sees a cop who don't even know what the fuck is going on. He was walking by, he'll shoot the cop. He won't even hesitate." Am I right? I said, "Yeah, probably." He said, "You, what the fuck would you do?" I said, "I would analyze it. Maybe the cop don't know what's going on. If he's walking on Chalant, if he knew who was going on, he'd have his gun out and I would shoot him. But if it's just walking on Chalant, it happens. I wouldn't have to shoot him. Everybody keep fucking quiet." Whatever. So you would think your way out. Yes, that's the difference between you and Ali. Let Ali go in, pull the gun, tell everybody get on the floor and you take his back. You're not reactionally. You'll think if there's a problem, you will think your way out before you fucking kill people. I know if there's a problem, you'll shoot the guy. Have any of these, you know, like you said earlier, you got a random phone call. Oh, we haven't even talked about that. We'll get into that with the whole FBI stuff in James Comey. We'll get into that here in a minute. But have you ever gotten a random phone call of one of these families that later on you testified you addressed that I did take these guys out? Did anybody ever call you? And made in Portugal. The craftsmanship is a way of life. For those who move through life differently. From some it decks to nights that never need an occasion. Every detail is considered. Every step, effortless. Crafted from fine swayed and built with builder technology, designed to move with you. Because true luxury isn't about being noticed, it's about how you feel when you arrive. The FLB icon logo made for the life you've earned. Yes. Who called you? There's a Spanish guy who we killed and I can't think of his name, but he's on my list. If you look at my list, he's a Spanish guy. Puerto Rican. De Bernando, Mormando, Santiago, John Santiago, one day my phone rang and he says, "Is this Sammy?" I said, "Yes." And he says, "I'm Johnny Sunday. I go son." Son. Son. He says, "Could I talk to you?" I said, "Yes. What do you want to know?" He said, "What I want to know, Sammy, I understand the life a little bit. My father was around it. Why did he die? Why did he get killed? Why did you kill him?" I said, "I'm going to tell you the whole story. Don't interrupt. Don't hang up." Is he being a jerk? Is he being fair? Is he respectful? No, no, no, he was very respectful and fair. How old was he when he called you? 20s, 30s. 20s, probably. I don't know. So I said, "Your father was fucking Stymie's brother's wife and he knew us and everything. Stymie came to me and told me, "Sammy, I want to kill this kid." Son, I said, "I go." He was one of my top guys. I said, "Why?" He says, "He was fucking my brother's wife." I said, "You know I have to go get permission from Tato and then Paul." I need to ask you questions. He said, "What?" Did he rape the wife? The brother's wife, yeah. Did he rape her? No. Did he force her? He's asking you this question. I'm asking him, Stymie. I'm telling him when I'm asking Stymie. If John Santiago forced her or raped her, yes, I'm asking Stymie. Right. And he says, "No, I don't think so. Do we kill your sister-in-law, Tato?" He said, "Sin, that's my sister, bro." She wasn't raped, she wasn't forced. She's a participant in this. We're going to just kill him, and she's okay. I don't want to ask you another question. Is this going to make their marriage better? Because we kill him? She just said, "How am I supposed to know?" I have to know. I have to know. I'm your boss. I have to bring it to title. I have to bring it to Paul. I got to ask them, "I'm going to kill a fucking guy who fucks somebody who's not even in our family." I need those answers. You could answer. I said, "Stamie, listen to me. I know you're hot with this. If this respect is you, and I get it. But you're not asking me, you would like to break his face. You'd like to get my fucking beating with your hands. You're asking me to kill somebody." I said, "Here's what I'm going to do. I'm not going to say no, maybe down the road. Let's sit with this awhile. I'm not going to go to ask the permission. And we'll put it on the side until we really live with this for a while and we see what happens. I was dead against it. This is what I'm telling this to. One night I get a call, a couple of weeks later. Sammy, come down right away. Now, I don't question on my phone what happened. When I hear that, my guy say, come on right away. I noticed something really bad that happened and I jumped in my car and I drove down. What happened? Huck told me. And I said, "What happened?" Sammy got in the car with the Santiago guy and he was a little drunk and he killed him. Oh my God. He killed him? Yeah. Is the car still around? We put it somewhere. He just cleaned it up. He got the gun that he used. He's closed. Get this fucking car and clean it up. Clean it. Burn it. Get rid of it. We already got the gun. Throw it in the fucking ocean. I never want to see it. Hear about it again. Get this fucking clothes that he wore when he was in the fucking car and Toto's car closed away, too. I cleaned it up. That's all I did. Knowing that I hit took place, knowing that I cleaned it up, made me part of it. I'm telling the son, that's the reason why it happened. When he asked me, "Stay me" broke the rules and under your own rules, questions you asked were great. Did you kill him? No. Of course not. He was proposed to become made. Stay me. Stay me. I put him on a side for a while, showing him that I was super mad. I can't. I'm not gone. I can't bring back a body. I can't bring back it. But I made him know I was not happy with this fucking thing. But I had no control over it. I did. And when I did, I told him, "Leave it on the side." And we'll talk about it. Figuring that over time, he'd say, "All right, I mean, she cheated. She went with us. She's good looking." Whatever. He would forget it or say, "Okay. Maybe I'll just go break his face." And I would have told him, "Go, you wanted two guys to go with you? You want me to go with you? What the fuck? You wanted them." We give them a good beating. He deserves a beating for what he did. Of course that's disrespect, but he didn't deserve to die. The son on the phone told me, "Sammy, I just don't know how to thank you. I know why my father died." And he was a lady's man and did shit a couple of times people would tell him, "Stop. Some of the things you're doing." I am, I want to thank him. I never heard from him again, never bought him me, I never bought it him. That was it. He heard the story, understood the story, knew I was telling the truth and I told him. I'm charged with it. I could tell you anything. I could tell you I killed him. It doesn't change my charge. There's no reason for me to lie to you. None. You asked me like a gentleman of why your father was killed and I told you like a gentleman truthfully because I think you deserve that answer. I told him like that. That's a wild story. Any time like when you're telling some of these stories, other guys who were made man or were in the life, maybe they've left or it's been a couple of decades that they ever call you and say, "Sammy, why are you lying?" That's not really what happened, you know, or question some of this stuff. No, they'll say it on their channels and not channels. But I'm talking to somebody that is not a YouTuber, doesn't want to create content. But somebody that's a real guy that is not even wanting to sit down with anybody just calling you say, "Sammy, why'd you tell that story?" Or even why are you telling these stories publicly? Has anybody from the family called you and say, "Sammy, stop talking." Not one. Not one. No. Why do you think? Because they're true. But we talked about when I was going to get sentenced in a case, Michael the bad sister brought a whole letter, I was going for sentencing, of a vicious, nasty, cold, serial killer, whatever the fuck she put in this letter to give me the maximum I could give. The judge preaked up the letter and read it. I was in court and he says to her, I don't want to mention her last name. He mentioned to her, "I read you a letter." He called her up front. I read you a letter and it seems like you're very angry at him. You worked for him. He doesn't bother you that your brother was outkilling with him, never bothered you. It only bothered you now that your brother got killed. And he threw the paper down on the desk. And obviously he didn't pay a no mind. So it's a lot with these cases and these things, a lot of them run around with things. I always told my family, if I get killed tomorrow, don't blame the guys who killed me. They run the orders. They might like me and they might love me. If they don't do it, they're going to get killed and they know that. And they run the orders and they're in the life. They'll get mad at them. It's the guy who wanted it. So that is the life, that's the oath you take when you come in the life, you live by the gun, you die by the gun. Do the right thing when you're in the fucking life, you survive the life, maybe. But you're in this life. You're not. This isn't no candy as fucking joint, everybody worries about it, be a little shit. There's guys who get killed in here for nothing sometimes. You know that, Patrick. These guys left and right and you don't have the fucking right, John Jr., to come up, put me down and complain about me. When you're fucking, if I killed 19 people who are involved in 19 murders, how many fucking murders does your father involved in, 50? When you open your fucking mouth, open it and tell the truth, how many were you in? You killed some fucking innocent kid in a bar fight. I remember your father and the whole of men, we paid the fucking cops 25,000 to cover you to fuck up, talk. You want to talk or sit with Patrick, put David and talk, say the fucking truth, talk. Don't lie to him because he's got a big file and you want to get your fucking voice out. If you only talk with him, Patrick's the best guy, I did it and I talked to him a couple times. I'm talking to him now, but tell him the truth, go tell him the truth. Because if he don't smell the fucking truth, he's going to be on it. We're talking, I don't know how long you check, double check means three times, four times already. And that's the way I supposed to be. That's why I was meant. That's what you should do with John Jr., or you make him some heavy accusations and what you're saying, that Sammy wasn't the whole fucking world knew he was involved. The Brooklyn police, New York police, FBI, people who cooperated, and then why would he just call out and say he did it? Why would he confess to a fucking mass of murder, double murder? If he didn't do it, it's like me saying, I killed John Kennedy. Why would I do this? I didn't do it to make myself famous. I'm not completely out of my mind. And so that's it. And the murders bothered me. I never enjoyed a murder, never. There's murders that I did that bothered the shit out of me. I think you know that. I'm doing a movie about the iceman, not the iceman, the Johnny Keys hit. And that thing just literally broke my heart. There's another one with Louis Milito. Just wiped me out. I was a kid growing up, fishing, hunting. We did everything together. And Louis almost on every single murder I'm on. Why would I lie about that one? He's almost on every one. He was a tough bastard. Everybody knew that. People who legit, people who knew him down. From who are not in the streets. Like our friends who talk about him. I tell them, I don't even want to talk about it, you know. But because it just breaks my heart, what he did, it did stupid shit and got himself killed. It's a, you know, you and I have spent a lot of time together, a lot, you know, outside of the interviews and stuff and the stuff on camera. We've had dinner. We've had conversations over the years. Absolutely. One of the stories I want to get into. We were talking about it briefly. This came up, I think, a week ago with you and James Comey, you know, DOJ sought input on a Comey case from the Tory Semitable Gravano defense says, you can go a little bit lower. You know, less than a month ago, the FBI directed James Comey's indictment earlier. This, your prosecutor sought the assistant of the notorious gangster Semitable Gravano to build their case against them. His defense lawyers, alleged in a court filing on Tuesday prosecutor, an FBI agent allegedly interviewed Gravano to understand if Comey's experience prosecuting the Gambino family in the 1990s would have let him to believe that the term 86 was a reference to murder or violence, a federal grand jury indicted Comey on two charges in April. For posting the picture on his Instagram account of seashells, spelling 86, 47, Gravano who confessed to his involvement of 19 murders, including those of his best friends and his brother-in-law, before cooperating with prosecutors told the prosecutor and FBI agent that he did not interpret Comey's 86, 47 seashells post to be personal threat to President Trump according to his defense lawyers. Is this story true that they call you, that they reach out to you? Well, I do have a lawyer and I'm not going to answer a lot of questions with this, but like you said, we do have a relationship. Yes, did they call me? Yes. I'm not going to talk in depth of it, but I sat in my house one day. My phone rang, a woman said, "Is this a transmutable?" And I said, "Yeah, who's this?" And she says, "I'm the FBI." I'm going to talk to you. So I said, "Before you go any further, you know I'm on parole. If you're an FBI agent, you must know I'm on parole." Yes, we know. So my instructions were my parole officers that I don't answer any questions with cops, FBI or anybody, unless I talk with them and they say, "It's okay for me to talk." So if you do me a favor, I don't know who you want, I don't know if you're an FBI, I don't know if you're a newswoman trying to get under my skin or whatever the fuck it is, but call my FBI parole officers. And if they talk to me, I'll maybe talk to you. So I'm going to hang up on you, I'm not going to be abusive and hang up on what all do respect, I'm going to hang up and I'm not going to make any comments to you. So if that's what I told you, FBI, I don't know in you. That's funny. Got it. Well, let me ask you a question. And if I'm called there, I'm already telling them, I'd not think I'll give you a little bit. If I'm not subpoenaed, I'm not going, I'm not, you know, I'm just not doing it. If I'm subpoenaed and I have to go because of my parole, I'll go and we'll take it from there. The Italian mafia that the mob ever used, the word 86, was it like a terminology would use or not really? Well, you know, I know, you know, I had a dish of fucking rigged Tony one time, I said, well, 86 this. Get it away from me. 86 means to me, get rid of it. Whenever it is, get rid of it, 86 it. But does it mean kill or does 86 mean get rid, could it be translated as kill? No. Anybody who said this as Patrick is dumb is fucking crazy because look at him with these dudes. I'm asking you a question about it. You're doing math. I'm trying to get better at math. Yes. Well, here, here's what I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you this. I know your math guys. Yeah. Now, if God forbid, I'm going to use you as an example, the guy calls me up. We're going to 86 Patrick with David. I would hang up and I would say they're going to kill Patrick. I mean, what else could it mean? It's, you know, everybody, everybody in the country, I think, knows what 86 something means. So, yeah, what's that? Now, as a gangster, did I use 86 if I was going to kill some money? No. Because I think any more on would understand, I'm going to kill, I'm going to 86 Patrick. Oh, so you hear what Sammy said, he's going to try to kill Patrick. So I don't know all this gobbling go, you know, what they're talking about or what all he's charged about. I didn't get all any of that information. Now, his lawyer must have got some information from them saying that I'm going to be on trial or be called. I remember when we spoke with me and Michael, Michael used the phrase baloney and I'll never forget you said, who uses that word? This is why I wonder because I don't know the language on how you guys speak. I'm not in the life. I've just spent a lot of time with you, you know, like who says baloney? Nobody says baloney. Do you remember that exchange? It was one of the funny moments of that. There was a few of them. Oh, yeah. What do you tell me? Sammy, that's baloney. What the fuck uses that term now? We're both good with Michael. Michael was here. I know you got a relationship with him as well. But he comes out with something, I mean, he said baloney four times. I remember that. So, okay. So 86. By the way, did you ever have any dealings with Komi back in the days? Did you ever do anything with Komi back in the days or no? I mean, I tell you this guy's brilliant. Yes, I did. There was a case. Yes or no? 90s. 2000. 80s. We stopped and over there, you know, I, you know, look at him. Here he is. He's already pulling it up. I mean, you know, it's fascinating to me. I'm not saying what he did, but I mean, if he took 86, 47 in C-shells, took a picture of it, and put it out for the world to see, um, that's about as stupid as you couldn't do. I mean, first of all, the president you're talking about had three attempts on his life. And now this, every screwball in the world, maybe not me or other guys, I don't know, but would look at that. And, you know, from a high official, it's like, I got a license, let me go kill Trump. So, I don't know what his actual charge is, and with the FBI, we're a pretty go-a-may, I'm waiting to hear. Have you ever been in the same room together? Yeah. You have? In the 90s. Yeah. So, he, was he one of the guys that, when you cooperated, he was in the room questioning all of that? Or no? What did he mean? Question. Was he one of the guys in the room when you eventually decided that I'm done? I'm leaving the life and I'm going to go cooperate. Was he one of the guys? Oh, no. I don't think he's in there yet. But I was on a couple of trials that, was he a heavyweight, even in the 80s and the 90s, like, there's a somebody you knew that this is disguise? Oh, yeah. He was, what was he? He was a head FBI guy. He was a head, well, some sort of attorney general. He was powerful. Yeah. He was a young assistant to U.S. attorney in Southern District of New York. He worked on organized crime prosecutions of all of the Gambino family. Sami Gervano had become the government star cooperating with us in turn on Gadi. Komi was part of a federal prosecution effort against Gambino figures, although he was not the lead prosecutor in the famous Gadi trial. Interesting. No. believed he was but I had a couple of trials I ate nine trials so one of them he was he was one of them was he strong did you get a vibe of a you know formidable guy or oh he was a strong guy yeah yeah he wasn't a weak guy he was strong did gotty know of him like did gotty know who he was or not really don't know I don't know if gotty knew him I don't know if I knew him before the gotty arrest I mean I don't remember I don't know well you've been in the same room would call me before absolutely multiple times yes dinner plain cards dominoes chess what was the occasion I can't tell you the real cases I mean so more than five times no it can't talk no I take the fifth really I'm gonna do Fauci today Fauci but Fauci pleaded the fifth I'm 11 times I mean that's a disgrace this guy it is yeah oh my god yeah this guy killed millions of people I made it away with it my can't see how he's gonna get away with it you saw what they're doing the Trump announced today that these removing all the auto pen you know he's executive orders that Biden did of 92% wasn't signed it was all auto pen and if he does that Rand Paul is going for Fauci oh and Paul wants to get him I think there's more than them I mean listen it's so obvious that I can talk about it's so obvious what he did it's really disgusting you really got me curious with this combie thing yeah really his number never told his story if I go down and I cooperate and I'm in this trial I you call me down I'll come and do the first guy I come no no but what I what what is interesting about this is are you not able to talk because you're dealing with the FBI right now or you're not able to talk because you don't want to talk about your relationship with combie from the 90s those are two different things yeah but I got hit you hit both chords so which one is it more both both so you've never talked about this would call me though no this that she shells no not the seashell seashells as recent the stuff from the 90s you've never talked about that no no now you got me and everybody else watching curious yeah well that's what I do you think combie's a nice guy you think he's a good guy you know I don't have an opinion like I don't hate the guy like I want to go down and testify that I don't you know I really don't like him I don't give a fuck about him if he goes to prison or he stays out of prison or I don't have any kind of grudges with him if that's what you're getting to get no I just think that an intelligent guy if this is true what he did you know and you know I don't know what witnesses they got or what they're doing I they didn't tell me so it's I think it's as stupid as you can get I mean I know I would never use the terminology on a murder or anything like that or attempted murder to use the terminology 86 because I would think that every FBI agent in the world in the country would know what I'm talking about unless I was in a restaurant and I didn't want to food then it's obviously he don't want to food he's arguing with the food but the relationship with Fauci not that it's you guys broke bread it's not a relationship it's more about as an AG as a Pharaoh was there a relationship between the two of you I love this guy this is you know what did I say you got to wait until the end for the thing he's going on trying one in October yeah it's right about in the corner let's see what happens interesting you know very very scary like a little bit um all of these heavyweights it's Democrats a lot you do something and there's going to be a witness this appears the witness hangs himself for all of these fucking things you know I'm expecting some day I mean if he's or panicking about me they might be panicking about me and they say let's take this motherfucker out yeah if they think I know a lot and I'm going to hurt him maybe that's what they would want to do so I would advise them myself make sure you don't miss because we'll be talking about you whom because these fucking people are fanatically with this stuff they really are and it seems like every time they get some sort of a case who disappears who gets commit suicide who falls on a knife or who does this and who does that it's dangerous these people are dangerous people yeah you're you're you're almost uncomfortable talking about it oh no I'm not uncomfortable talking about it and I five was I mean I'm talking about it I'm going to be there if I'm subpoenaed and we see how it goes and you know then you do what you got to do but in other words I don't want to add to this explosion I got it was under statinown events friends of mine and sending me look what they're saying about you I got all the another guy who talks about me all the time look he's rat me and I'm not rat I don't even know what the fuck is going on you don't know what's going on I'm ratten how am I ratten it is what you know about Komi if it came out would it destroy his reputation no I don't know does he have a lot of repetitions he got a good reputation no no no I'm talking about with you from the 80s and 90s but I'm saying the 80s and 90s does he have a good reputation no but but if if if the stories of what the relationship is with you from the 80s and 90s were to come out would it affect them negatively or would it affect you negatively I don't know you know what I learned in this life is that those 12 jurors make up their mind what they're going to do with what they get to believe and what's going on I don't know they may love them you're going to put 12 Democrats understand they'll love them oh he was saying this about Trump oh I love them this is how twisted the country is right now but I'm talking about the truth because you talk about the truth if what the relationship of you and him if that ever leaked with that hurt him or help him I think you should get him on oh he won't do it now he won't do it call me call me a lot of these guys say me they're better off just keeping their mouth shut and disappearing and going to all those fancy dinners and long island and you know with the drainage and all the stuff that they go to and behind closed doors they should live that life the more they open up their mouth the more they incriminate themselves these guys I agree with you yeah and I'm in the same boat yeah it's the same as I I get opened up my mouth and get myself in trouble well let's go to let's go to a couple things and I will wrap up the you the story with Mamdani came out and you know I'm curious to know how you how you handle the Mamdani has the story comes out and they talk about all these places in New York and he puts the map of New York City's immigrant neighborhood sparks outrage for ignoring little Italy I'm sure you saw that if you want to go a little bit lower yeah yeah and this is the mad so you see the map New York City immigrant enclaves right zoom in a little because my eyes I can't see anything so you got Chinatown you got Chinatown in in Sunset Park Guyana Correa Town Little Africa Albania you know Colombian Dominican Republic Ecuador you got everybody Manila Mexico Odessa Palestine Pakistan Poland Ukraine Yemen Egypt little Haiti little India and you forget Italy you think this was an intentional error or an accidental error I think it's intentional and stupid at the same time almost putting it together with comies stupid and accidental or whatever I think this is the same thing this guy has got to be out of his mind in New York to do this is obviously against Jewish people in New York it's full of Jews all over and they're good people and you throw Italians out I think you just put two you know races and nationalities together in a relationship they you know I remember when they did the Tyrant American League Did you wish to? defencely came down and rallied for us. Now you've got two of them together. I would imagine that in New York now you're going to have to choose any Italians rallying for each other and make you make your friends with, but that they like each other or not. We both got thrown out. I think it's a dumb move, but I really amazed. I was born and raised as you know in New York all my life. I'm amazed how they voted them in. It's a lot of these young kids coming out of college and they don't have a clue when they're going against somebody who's this kind of a mentality against Christians, Jews, against all kinds of different things. Why would you want this guy in? This is your end result. Like when they say when you vote, you got what you want to now live with it and deal with it and that's what they got. Do you think he is intentionally leaving Italians out or do you think that's a mistake? I took it's a big mistake. I mean there's a lot of Italians in New York and every single part of New York. Is there anything in here about Jews? Nothing. So no Jews, no Italians and if you look at the population of Italians in New York, it's 7.6%. What are the top, I don't know, top five biggest, let's see ethnicity population in New York City. I'm curious. What are the top five? 2.7 to 3.1, that's in New York, but New York City is going to be 800,000. So number one is Puerto Ricans. Then you got Italians, then you got Dominicans, Chinese, Irish, Mexican, German, Russian, Polish, and you leave Italians and they're the second biggest population in New York City. It's kind of weird. It's weird. It's kind of weird. And Jews is 1.3 million. So number one is Jews. He left it out. Number three is Italian. You leave it out. Sami, Italians, would you get with the Italian mob, like all the families? Would you all consider yourself patriots, like love America, assimilate this the greatest country in the world? Is that the mantra for Italian mob? Well, I think so. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. There was a lot of a lot of people I know, including myself, was in the military, was willing to fight for the country. A lot of guys. Guys were older than me back in World War II and stuff like that. Oh, tons of guys. My father was an immigrant. He was a patriot. He loved the country. He loved the flag. He loved what he did. They were innocent people trying to make a living, trying to grow. So, yeah, I think the mafia is patriotic about things. Not to a tremendous degree that they're going to go crazy fighting over it. But, yeah, I think in one lady, believing everything, the flag, you've seen them with holidays and stuff like that, they're good. They care about the country. My father, the first thing I spoke was Italian. I never even knew how to speak English when I was a kid, because they were all Italians. They were all Italians. And that's all I learned. My father had said, we got to stop doing this. Look, he can't even speak English. We came to this country. We got to believe their laws, their flag, their country, and their language. And all my grandmother's and everybody started talking English more every once in a while. They talk Italian, but they did it because they wanted to be part of this country. You're not here to divide the country. You're here to make it bigger and stronger and better. And if you left from someplace that was fucked up, this is more of a reason that you're going to come here and say, I'm going to make this better. I'm not going to make this screw to happen to everybody though. No, I know. It doesn't happen when everybody, because people have personal greed and selfishness. But you have to understand that, you know, when people make a move, like, like, let's say Donald Trump, he makes a move. He may benefit 80% of the people. 20% are going to suffer a little bit. And they're going to be so loud and crazy about it. And that's the way it is. You can't fix everything. You're always going to hurt somebody. You do something one way. A lot of people are going to like it and a lot of people are not going to like it. That's just the way it is. Kennedy once said, don't ask what the country could do for you. Ask what you could do for the country. But people are going to have that mentality. They don't. They're always worried about what can it do for me. Sammy, you know, you see some of these things that's happened in two kids in America. You see, I don't know if you've watched them with your citizen vigilante, you know, with the away bowl, or you saw a guy named Robert Lowe talk about the 250,000 young girls that were raped in UK and London and 87% were Pakistani Muslims that did this to kids. And what would happen when you guys were fully active in the 80s? If a innocent young girl was raped by an older 30, 40 year old boy, man, what would you guys do? How would the mob get involved? We would kill them. Listen, there was that guy, the son of Sam ran around. Now we never bought it with the cops. When he was running around, his neighbor's dog was telling him to go kill people who are making out in the car, love his lanes and a dog. The guy was fucking gone. The mob kind of was hunting him too. I remember sitting in the car, would it go, making out. How the fucking gone on me? Whatever she was doing, I was looking out the window. I didn't want to get shot in the fucking head with this lunatic. I didn't know who he was. And then they caught him in the way they caught him. We got a ticket. He got this. He got that. He went to prison. They're gone. Mentally. I think most people don't want him. I get that, but what I'm trying to do is sometimes people are like cops are not even getting involved to protect people. And some of that stuff is not happening. Did you guys take it upon yourself with men like this to get rid of them? Sure. Sure. I'm a child molester on the streets in Benson Icebrookland or a rapist. I think we get killed. I don't think he would get killed. In my time, if you're talking, he would get killed. Now, what it is right now, I don't know. My time, he would get killed. And in my time, when I went to prisons, nobody wanted to be with them. You get a child molester or a rapist. Sometimes they would get killed or beat up in prison. Nobody wanted to be around them. What would happen to child molesters in prison? Did anybody make it? Did they get beat up every day? A lot of times they had to move them to a special place, a special place they had to get them away. Because they're always, somebody's always giving them a problem, which they should. They're at least on the total pole of people that respect it. They don't respect you. They respect killers. What kinds of things? But not those kind of crimes. Because killers and everybody has families. Everybody's got families. Everybody relates to, oh my god, he raped a 10 year old or a 12 year old girl or a boy. They relate to it in a negative way. We can't stomach that. And I don't want to be, I don't want the guy in the same room as me. I said, I had a guy in prison, a priest who got arrested for doing things. My lawyer, I'll never forget, it came to me to see me. There's a whole thing, did you hit a priest? I said, yeah. He said, are you sick? The newspaper is going to pick that up and say, you hit a priest in prison. I said, bro, he was talking to me about what he does. Why? That when kids come in, he flashes them and he was giggling and laughing when it was about. And I slapped him. I didn't really go to work on him, bad. I just slapped him. I couldn't stomach listening to him. Discuss your cellmate? No, he wasn't my cellmate. He was in the unit. What made him feel comfortable sharing those stories with you on what he does to young boys? Because he felt that talking to me, I rather than I'm a, I'm a parasite. I know whenever the fuck it is, he felt something like that. And he could talk to me about it. I didn't get it that first when he was telling me. He says, you know, the little girls they love it. They love what? He says, when I sit in the car, I got a cold arm. I called them over. I got candy, I got things, they come running over. And they're like, you know, them when I exposed myself, they start giggling and left me, it's great. Nice. I hit him. And then prison came and talked to me. Even the prison, I thought I'm going to go in the hole. I didn't even go in the holding. I read him. Of course, the gods were against it. It's a priest. It was a priest. Let me tell you his story. It was a priest who was doing just the kids, little boys. And he got caught up and they moved him from Arizona to another state, but they didn't throw him out. They just moved them. Years later, one of those kids that he bothered, grew up, went to school, became a cop. The cop became like a sergeant or something like that. He was the head of a squad going after John Lester's. And he called the guy up the priest and said, "My name is Joe Blow." And I want to thank you. I'm gay today because of you. And he starts saying, "I thank you for showing me blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And he talks back to him right after that phone call. It's bugged, obviously. He's arrested. And I was only bring him back to set him up, set him up, bring him back to California. He's a minute and a whole fuck, not California. I was older. He's a minute and a whole thing, everything he did. Now, when he was sitting with me in a unit, he became a witness to tell what they do with priests who do this. They just moved them to another place and then he just keeps doing what he's doing. They don't get rid of him. They don't do anything to him. So he's riding on bishops and whatever. Now, the whole system. So hearing that, I couldn't stand him to begin with. What do you think needs to happen to these types of people? What do you think needs to happen to guys like this? Well, I've been minimum to take the priest from out. Let him go to prison, just like anybody else. That's enough. And I'll let the inmates take care of him. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it's an at least. Maybe it's not enough, but it's at least do that. If you move them to Florida, what's going to stop him? Make sure to do it again. You didn't stop him. You just transfer them. That's bullshit. So I mean, you got to give him some sort of punishment or something. It's disgusting. It's happening. You know, it's interesting story. You have a daughter. I got two daughters. Okay. I got your son on the phone. Yes, son, he said, my father's not here. Take my words for it. He won't call you back for two weeks. I love that call. He's so funny. Yeah. But do you remember the first time your daughter brought a boy home to introduce to boyfriend and what your reaction to it was? Yeah. Well, I think I don't remember the first one, but I think I was called it. My daughter was very grounded. She was a tough kid. She was a very grounded kid. When she was, you know, I was very strong with her. And so it was my wife. One day I came home. I went in the kitchen. She came in the kitchen. And she started crying. I said, what are you crying about? She says, I went out with my girlfriends. Yeah. And we were drinking and I took a little coke. Why are you crying? She says, I know, I was wrong. And I just wanted to tell you. I said, that's good. Because you knew what you did. You made a mistake and you did something wrong and you're confessing to me. So I'm not going to be mad at you. Stay with that kind of an attitude. Stop crying. I love you. I appreciate you, honest, and you notice it's going to hurt you down the road. Stay away from all that crap. And she did. She became very grounded, my daughter. So the same thing with my son. So not come wood. I was a little strong and a little tough with them. But they turned out to be two great kids. I mean, my daughter does interviews and things. People and she's a workaholic. She works. A hot out. She's open-minded. So she had a problem. She was able to trust me enough to sit with me and tell me the problem. I was man enough to not hit her or turn around and scream at her and yell at her. I said, the best thing you can done was tell me the truth. And I see the way you're crying and you're looking for forgiveness. You got it. And I think doing that, people have to be patient with their kids. Kids listen to other kids. They go out with other kids and do things. You have to understand that's part of life and try to cut that oil out and do the best you can with your kids. Stay on top of it. Don't go like a raving maniac. Give them respect. Let them love you and respect you. If they make a mistake, they may come back. I'm working on a program now, Prep National. I don't know if you heard about it, but Prep National. I want to ask you a question about this. Going into Prep National. A question I want to ask you is, I remember the first time I had you on the podcast, 2019, the first one that we did, you remember that one. One of the questions I ask you is when you went to jail, you know, did you find Jesus? I don't know if you remember that question or not. I did. And here's the segment of it. In the interview, I want to play this clip and I want to ask you what happened next. Go for it. A lot of people go to prison. They find Maccabelli some fine Jesus. Who did you find in prison? You know, I looked for Jesus. I looked for Prep and Jesus wasn't any of the prisons I was in. And I already knew Maccabelli. What I understood is this. Everybody believes in God. It won't form another. All the religions is nothing more than a road to God. The Jewish community has it. The Christians have it. The Catholics have it. The Indians have it. Everybody has that road to God. The wicked people. They all have the God. It's the road is different and we start arguing, fighting over it, but we all have the God. That's what it is. If you believe in God, it doesn't matter whether you believe a monkey. That's good. The guys I saw that found Jesus in prison. I've seen guys who found it. And they're usually crying and whining and asking him for less time. They want to get out and do this. That's the other thing. Or it's an excuse for something else. The devil made me do it. I didn't do this on my own. I mean, I would love, you know, this is what they would say if they were me. I found Jesus in prison. And I became a Holy Roman and it said, no, I would be lying through my teeth. And one thing God's going to do with me, I always said this when I get up there. If I get up there, He's going to say one thing about your family, you know, the fucking phony or a liar. You tell it like you feel it. You did what you did and whatever it's going to be is going to be. But to start lying and crying, how are they going to face God? All of me is a lying about Jesus. You didn't believe Jesus. You haven't had to get out of prison. But now you've got to face God. He's going to know you, you're full of shit. You go on the express of that train over there. The fuck out of here. So I don't know what's changed. A lot of changed. I mean, I'm older. I'm wiser. I've went through more things. When I left the life, I went through this was a change. A part of my change. And when I went to Ocean Church in California, I met a pastor there. I became very, very friendly with him and he wanted to baptize me. And I hesitated at first. I wasn't sure what to say. And then he said, I'll do it on the beach. There'll be tens of thousands of people, all kinds of security, all of this stuff. And I'm baptized you and Jesus will forgive you for your sins. And I said, I don't want to do it that way. That looks fake to me. That I'm doing it for tens of thousands of followers of people or this and that. If I do it, I want to do it between me and you and I want to make it private. Some small or small thing. I don't want to blow it up. Because people would say I'm doing this for publicity or whatever. And he said, all right, I mean, that sounds good to me. And we talked and talked and talked. And I was a September time. went with him and we went to a friend of his house and I became baptized in a pool and I felt really, really, really good after I was done. And I felt good at different times when I thought about Christ or I thought about God or I thought about changing my life. And I was just mentoring this place. A friend of mine is a teacher for 20 some odd years and he's doing prep-national and it's a thing that helps kids with religion, with everything all the way around. So I thought about it and I said I think I'm behind this prep-national. A friend of mine, Jessica, is a very religious person, very smart person. And she talked to me about it and I started really backing this prep-national very much. And it's almost like religion. There's a lot of religion and they go into religion schools and things like that. And I have things I was dyslexic as a kid. And I think if I had this program that these people put together, I might have been different. I'm not stupid. I'm dyslexic. Words look screwed up to me. Numbers look screwed up to me. But I know right from wrong. I know God exists. I was shot two different times and stabbed once. There was multiple meetings and I think Patrick knows them that I was supposed to go when I was supposed to be killed. And I think that God didn't want that to happen. Why he didn't want that to happen? I have no idea right now. And I wanted to straighten my life out. I thought it was good for my kids, my grandchildren and my great-grandchildren. So I'm moving to get that into schools as much as possible and pulling their lives together. My son, I tell my son, come with me. I go to Mass every week in Arizona and if I'm in California, I'll go to the church, the ocean church. And I do that and I feel good about things I'm doing right now. Do you think you're going to happen? I don't know. That's God's decision. I think that I believe what they say in the Bible in the past is that when you baptize Jesus forgives you for your sins. Now if that's true, since that, I don't think I have any major sins. I know I don't. So I don't see why I wouldn't go. But I don't know. I really don't know. But I don't want to gamble and just do what I feel like doing. And I don't feel like doing anything to hurt anybody or to deceive people or to do certain things. I don't really want to do that anyway. I want my podcast to go. I'm working on a scripted show. I want to get that to go. And it's crazy. I mean, I wish you could talk to some of those people that a market went. When I talked to them about it, I said, I want everything to come out the truth. My brother went on everything. Everything that I didn't want to come out. I want to leave my life where what I was before and the middle after whatever it is. Because I think I owe that to my daughter, my son and my grandchildren and people who love me and around me, friends, that I care about. And if I don't do that, there'll be nobody who cares about me. Do you pray daily? Not every day. No, but I pray a lot. I do. I pray a lot. I pray a lot because I do live shows on Mondays and Thursdays. People call me with their son, their daughter and father, mother in a hospital dying. And I pray for them. I do pray for them. So I don't always pray for myself or for something. I can't get the scripted show done just yet. I pray for that. And I pray for things. I think are worthy for me to pray for. For God to listen to. But I think he listens to everything anyway and knows everything. So. Well, that's an interesting testimony. And you see, that's the beautiful thing about God, right? Faith. Seen, when I saw you getting baptized, I'm like, I remember asking them about it. And I wonder how he's going through it. You know, I wonder how he's going. There's got to be, you know, because we all are emotional and logical human beings. You have a very logical side to yourself. Yeah, where it's like logically, why would he forgive me for the life I've lived the only way you can make sense of it is emotionally and grace and, you know, at the end of the day, it's faith. We're not going to know until the day comes. But yeah, when I saw that, I saw this video. You want to play this video? I think this is the video rise up out of these waters with a new nature, a new heart, new mind, and a new life. Father, right now, the old man is going under. And God, the Spirit of God is coming up out of Sammy as he rises out of these waters in newness and life. It was interesting seeing this. It's interesting to me, too, because without this, take this away. What do I have? Nothing. I might as well be dead. What this gives me life, gives me joy, gives me forgiveness, gives me reasons to want to help people, not hurt people. So I love what I did. I feel good about what I did. And I conduct myself each and every day. I got people attacking me left and right all over the fucking place. And I don't retaliate. I got people saying things about me that would be dead if I was like I was. And they're not. And I constantly listen to the preachers and people say, you know, forgive even them. So God wants me to forgive them. Now, I'm not going to go give them roses, but I'm going to forgive them that I'm not going to hurt them and I'm not going to do anything. And I feel better about it. The other way around, you never know when you're going to get revenge, when you're going to go to prison, when something's going to happen. So I try to be as positive as a person as I could be and do what I do. And I'm happy with it. I'm good with it. Well, I'm glad to hear that you're going through this. You know, you and I have known each other now almost 10 years. I remember the first phone call I made you. I called you and I'm like, "Hey, Sammy, Patrick, be David here." Who the fuck is Patrick? David. And say, I'd like to interview. I'm not doing an interview with nobody. The only one I've sat down with is Diane Sawyer, got 20 million, won the biggest interviews of all time in 1994. And that started our relationship when we flew out to Arizona. We sat there and you know, Mario and all that stuff. That's been an interesting journey. But for those watching, if you want to learn more about prep international, we're going to put the link below where you can go and learn more about this, empowering schools for a brighter future, comprehensive mental health awareness and substance abuse prevention for schools and communities, elevate your schools well-being with your tailored online resources and services to foster a nurture and environment. So we're going to put the link below to learn more about it. And Sammy, as usual, it's always good talk in your mind. It's my pleasure to talk to you and be with you. And I love this guy. We do have tenure relationship and it's very good. We look forward to future. Thank you so much, Sammy. Take care, everybody. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. From some, it decks to nights that never need an occasion. Every step. Effortless. Crafted from fine swayed and built with builder technology designed to move with you. Because true luxury isn't about being noticed. 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