Why Did The Jaylen Brown Trade Happen Now? + Is The Lakers’ New Big 3 Enough For Luka?

(upbeat music) Hello and welcome to the Whoop Collective Podcast. We're still talking about the NBA. Joining me from New York City is Vince Goodwill. - What up, though, Wendy? - What up, though? I guess we should say that it's Thursday afternoon. It only feels like mid-August. Do you want to go to Dallas, Texas? Home of Santiago Dama, which we're gonna lead the podcast with, Fan McMahon. - Howdy partners. That's two straight pods. You've made that San Tiaw Dama joke, but they're all running together now. - You got that, Kate, you got that. - I want the appropriate level of enthusiasm, Wendy. We talk about the NBA. - All right, we'll have you do it next time. (laughing) I have a public service announcement. When we say what teams are thinking, sometimes we're gonna say what our opinion is. But when we say what teams are thinking, we have to be grownups and not destroy the messenger. Holy hell. - Oh, have you been destroyed? - I've been like being Bobby, it's been a rough few days. - Well, and again, I thought you have to act like adults here. We act like adults. There's all adults listening. The kids are not listening to this. They're on, they are not on this platform. - We got a lot of IG stuff now. We got some YouTube shorts. The kids might catch little nuggets here and there. - I know it's not gonna matter. - I think we're TikToking even. - Are we TikToking Jackson? - Yes, we're TikToking. We're TikToking. - We should not be TikToking. - No, the kids love us. - Yeah. - Do fellow kids? - My God are people and their feelings. And I mean in the lead. I know in the world, I got that. That's what happens. But my God are people in these feelings Vince about this trade. Holy, fleek. - Holy. - A day in their feelings about this. This is gonna be, this is good. This is what do you call it? A tipping point, an inflection point, a pinch point. What else? What else we got? There's gonna be a before and after crossing the Rubicon. This is a big one. There's gonna, this is before and after events 'cause man, oh man. Am I getting double barreled from both ends on this one? Who boy? - Well, I was recording a podcast with Carmelo Anthony in Brooklyn yesterday. Oh, name dropping, cool. - Never heard of him. - No, not to say that. But when it came through, it was, wait, he got traded to where? For who? Like it didn't make sense, right? And I won't say it still doesn't make sense now, but when you add up some of the things and it's hard to add up these things and to make sense to people, A, the Celtics have not gotten, have won a grand total of one first round playoff series in the last two years. That is point one. Point two, Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum are increasingly getting more expensive as time goes on. So you have to operate with some prudence and how you are building this team. Three, there is new ownership around said team. Four, we don't know the relationship between Brown and Tatum and all we can do is speculate. And finally, Jalen Brown had a fantastic season on paper last year. And the Celtics clearly did not believe that was sustainable in a different environment. Come this season, come this coming season. And they didn't believe that Jalen Brown would be able to slide back into a supporting role, or if he would want to slide back into a supporting role, assuming Jason Tatum is all the way back into himself. Like it's a million things, right? - That's part of it. I think in my viewpoint, McMahon, you disagree with me if you want. But if I had to boil it down to one paragraph, and I mean, there's a lot of nuance required here, and I realized that this is not a time for nuance 'cause people are in their feelings about this. If I could boil it down to one paragraph, it's this. I don't believe that the league doesn't think Jalen Brown is a very good player. You read just said, I don't believe that the league does not believe Jalen Brown is a very good player. What I think is the league believes he's not a $57 million player. And that is asking for a lot of comprehension because there are people who not only are defending Jalen Brown, but defending the concept of the I-TES versus the analytics. Yes, there are all kinds of analytics, but in the era where there's essentially a hard salary cap, which is essentially what we have with the second apron, okay? There's a lot more stress on you performing to your level of a player. And so this is the thing. Peyton Pritchard makes $7 million. Nobody in their right mind would ever say that Peyton Pritchard is a better basketball player than Jalen Brown. In an era where the aprons mean everything and dollars are defined in efficiency of dollars defines your team, Peyton Pritchard is viewed as more efficient with his contract than Jalen Brown is. It doesn't mean anybody on the planet thinks that Jalen Brown is not a significantly better player than Peyton Pritchard, okay? But when you look at one guy makes $7 million and produces this and it results in this on the scoreboard. And one guy makes $57 million and produces this and it results in this on the scoreboard. There's a differential there. And so that's what people are talking about when they're talking about quote unquote value, all right? And so this is where we get into big time trouble. The language that the decision makers and the league are talking about and the people who are deciding whether to keep Jalen Brown or trade Jalen Brown or trade for Jalen Brown or not trade for Jalen Brown, they are looking at this term of value. And people who are love basketball and wanna watch it and don't wanna get into the spreadsheets, they see Jalen Brown and say, my God, what a valuable player. Not even valuable, most valuable player of the fun. - Right, right, right. And we are having two different conversations using the same language. And so basically what this is a challenge is, can we understand that it's two different conversations? I, right now, we cannot. And I don't know if we're gonna get there, but that's where we are at. And that is where the stress is and that is what it's going to make, frankly, the storyline of Jalen Brown next year is one of the most compelling you could possibly imagine. - No question. And look, I had a primary decision maker for another team in the league say, if you make 60 million, this is what's your worth in a trade. If he made 40, every single team in the league would have been lining up for Jalen, even with all the other issues. And look, obviously it reached a point where, for whatever reasons, the Boston Celtics believed, they needed to move on from Jalen Brown. And whether that is, I don't wanna get, I don't even wanna get into the blame game on that. But they reached that point where they believed they needed to move on from Jalen Brown. I'm pretty sure they reached that point before they put him in an offer for Yannis. And then after that, they just had to find the best deal. I think that there's plenty of room to criticize the approach that the Celtics took in terms of, they went out swinging for sky high value. They went out trying to trade Jalen Brown as at the value of the six most valuable player in the league, which is what he was in the MVP voting. When the league does not perceive him to be, the league in terms of the people who were making decisions on trade, that the league does not perceive him to be the six most valuable person in the league, the six most valuable player, because in part of his contract. And then this is such a hot bun issue, but the advanced analytics are not favorable to Jalen Brown. I had another GM, Basie say, look. Uh-oh, here we go. Look, be careful. I'm gonna say, be careful what you're about to say. That's all I'm gonna say. You know, listen, it's our job to explain things, whether we're cosine and not cosine or whatever, when there's something like this that confuses the hell out of, basically, the media, all the fans, all of our listeners. Like, you saw this trade and let's be honest, the initial reaction was, what the bleep? And, you know, this other GM says, this is a classic case of the credit goes to the guy who scores, but they're not driving team success. There's guys like this all over the league. The difference is he's not at 40 million, and like a brand new name room. He's at 60 million. And then look, he's rounding up. And then-- - Well, he's gonna be at 60 soon. - Right, and then it gets into the CBA, and the cap rules in the apron. And he says, it's really hard to tie up that much money in your salary cap for one player, unless they're truly generational, and he's not even close to that. Also said, the league is getting smarter now, and here's the thing. The dumb teams are the cheap teams. So the Celtics were in a position to try to capitalize on a quote unquote dumb team, because they're not bringing in a guy who has a hundred to 80 something million over the next three years, left on his deal, and who wants an extension, all for those numbers. - And that's the key thing there. He was going to be up for an extension, two years, 140 million dollars. The reason that you see more trades and not for the agency nowadays is because the trade market is for the agency. And if you have not made a decision that your franchise player is worth that extension, Then you have to trade them if your franchise player has said I'm not taking this extension Then you have to trade him. This was coming Sooner this summer rather than later even if the yana stuff did not happen. This was loom This was looming right and the Celtics the problem is that the order of operations of the way that things happen present really bad optics If someone that came to you and said the Celtics traded Jalen Brown You know without all the noise the Celtics need to get off Jalen Brown They got Paul George and two first round picks and two second round picks the first thought will probably But why didn't you scour the league he had such a great year? Why didn't you just why did you trade them for pennies on the dollar? Why didn't why did you trade them to for the first offer and then when you say man? You scour the league and it's value in lower and lower and lower it feels bad It feels bad on both ends But it feels worse this way because it feels like his value got lower and lower and that nobody wanted him when nobody Wanted him for the money he was making the money he was going to be due and what the Celtics were asking for him in return Like the thing there's a schism guys between the year that he had and the player that he is he had a top six year As far as keeping the Celtics afloat relative to our expectations all the numbers career highs all the sort of type of stuff But even the GMs who like him tell me all things is top 25 player not a top six player and the Celtics were trying to get top six Retiring back for a top 25 player which in theory is what you supposed to do you supposed to try to get for more than what you got But it just dragged on long and it just left the bad taste in people's mouths Which is why people are all in a damn villains right and if you let's look at the players who've been traded this summer Kauai extension time flippers weren't doing it Lamello he had some years left at a extension time The Hornets weren't doing it miles bridges not that he's quite on the same level But still extension time the hornets weren't ready to do it they traded them okay, so I think I'm forgetting somebody. I mean job, but well, I don't know about that. This was somewhere between I just want to be real careful because I want to be real careful with the I don't want a bad mouth J. N. Brown right who's done nothing but But produce and win in the NBA and you know like okay He goes on Twitch and says things that piss people off I you know I do think all that stuff and the you know his team my team wrestling that that is all part of this But I don't want to like I just want to be real careful that I'm not putting out there like J. N. Brown's a bad guy because I don't believe that I've not heard that from anybody But this was somewhere between J. N. K. Y. in terms of it's just time to move off them and The extension also being a factor in the decision. I Remains surprised That it was time to move off of them, but you know, I will say this like Jason Tatum makes even more money than J. N. Brown does but if Tatum's out there the offers are much like I had a team tell me like we were hoping that Tatum was gonna ask out Well, I'm just gonna say that I'm now gonna be watching Jason Tatum's advanced metrics because the Celtics have set the standard that if they don't think your advanced metrics equal to your contract They're gonna trade you so I'm now gonna watch that yeah, and look the other the thing that we talked about last night on the pod that you Absolutely did not want to do but thoroughly enjoyed was Why now and I still think that I I still think you shouldn't have done this deal on July 1st. I don't think Philly was gonna pull the offer I don't think Philly was gonna find somebody else to take Paul George I think this offer would have been on the table on September 1st, right? But in talking to people part of the why now is it just became a situation they believe was untenable and They had so many potential suitors Disappear whether it's Portland trading for jaw Toronto trained for Kauai You know Phoenix gave up that 2033 pick that was perceived to have great value trading for miles bridges You know just like all these there was another one that that's not pop its straight to mine right now But like all these potential suitors pop pop pop pop pop they're gone and part of the reason they're gone is The Celtics came in asking for so much those things is like we're not that's that we're not gonna get in that mix and Went on and did their business that a basic came down to okay? There's only one thing left on the table Let's do it now before maybe that disappears too and It's almost like is it better to make a bad trade or no trade when you feel like you have to make a trade More hoop collective podcast after this Okay, we didn't we just did a drive by the Lakers yesterday. They went through a massive roster Makeover Because we're still dealing with the fallout Walker Kessler Quentin Grimes Collins sexton and Mamu Sandra What I'm gonna show you really damn that's good. I don't know if it's good. It's what I got Pretty big turnover of the roster now What I will say is I've had I've had interesting league reaction from this have you talked to folks about this big man We didn't talk about this beforehand. Yeah, I have I have and and you know, obviously I've also talked to the jazz Which is kind of like I've done a lot of reporting on this the other key party here and So it is fast and look we can talk about kind of theance Larry pieces But Walker Kessler is now a centerpiece of the Lakers, right? He's there number three guy for the long term and Whether you you want to say they overpaid on salary and they overpaid on on on the place Real quick like do you think they overpaid on salary like I'm kind of okay with it. I'm not good at this, but I I was afraid to get Walker out of there You can have to offer more than 32 a year Yeah, I would say this Talking to people around the league they thought the five years about 140 million on the table from the jazz was a very strong offer for Walker Kessler right is that 28 year? Yeah, I think it was I think it was actually like 137.5 But whatever they would have the 500 grand a year wasn't gonna prevent the like the jazz would have gotten to 140 They felt like that was really strong value for Walker Kessler Having said that the Lakers had a desperate need that they had one real swing to to fill the price I get it because everything is if you don't fill this need You can't look Luke in the eye after promising to deliver him a legit center this summer and have a conversation That's gonna go well. That's just a simple fact to matter So the Lakers were backed into a corner because of the circumstances because their cap space is Usually lose it and because of the promises they made to Their superstar where there was desperation and so I get the salary and then the jazz took advantage of that Inspiration to milk them for them to get better draft capital Then the Clippers got for Kalei then the Celtic Scott for J.M. Brown like that. It's pretty remarkable That's true, but now the jazz don't have a franchise center now Obviously they can get one that depends on whether you want to play Jiren Jackson at center I don't think that was a plan. No, they're going with thunder and lightning for this year as a stop cap Which is a use of Nurgish and and my favorite Slovenian Jackson Hayes Long time Slovenian Jackson Hayes. Hey, he's prepping He's prepping for this time with the Slovenian national team, which we'll see if that actually happens by Hang it out in the mountains in Salt Lake City. Oh, I thought you were to say how now the mountains in Slovenia, which is where I know you've gone Yeah Slovenia beautiful place, but like seriously, so then the Lakers now they've got their their big three the trace let's chase Lakers You've got Luke a Donchich Austin Reeves and Walker Kessler who obviously look He's got to be one of the most dominant defensive forces in the league because that the thing the Lakers did is they went from being a bad perimeter defensive team to a god awful perimeter defensive team. Well, that's the so that's that's the reaction from so first off So Luca is making 30% of the cap that's the extension that he signed last year is kicking in He'll make $50 million this year 30% that's the max level for him Austin is making 25% of the cap that's a max level for him back in the day We call it the fun max, but we've got to retire the fun max. I'm very sad to say there's no such thing in an apron era as the fun max And even paying a really good player the max like At some point here Victor Wimbongam is gonna get a max not gonna be fun because this this burns we have to make other decisions So one of my best conceits ever that I stole from a from a team president Have to retire the fun max loved it sadly. It's gone But this is the remnants the the the the the the hot the husk the The the vessel that used to be the fun max is what Austin signed into 25% and so Walker Kessler Assuming they start his contract at about 30 million and it goes up from there Which I'm sure they will because they want to maximize their cap space. It's 18% of the cap So 30 25 18 these are acceptable numbers for your three best players Where you get in trouble like the Celtics wars when you're two best players are both at 30 and now all of a sudden It's hard to heart now that those two guys are studs which I thought Jalen and Jason were but it's another story There's no threat of super maxes in the future for any of them because they're not eligible That's correct. So Vinnie I like that alignment. I you know it's in terms of that spending You know the the draft assets they cost what they cost but they got a good guy who fits in salary wise, I feel like the salary is okay. I'm not super excited about it, but it's okay. What you really need now is you need Walker Kessler to be a grand slam. You need him to be a lob roll threat that absolutely dunks the ball. They crazy off Luca and Reeves Lobs. You need him to be able to stretch the floor a little bit, which he's been working on. And you need him to be a stretch of floor. Go on. It would be nice if he could do a stretch of floor for $30 million. What they really need is a back line defender who can be a killer defender, like all defensive team candidate. That's what they need. No, like they need to be a first team, all defensive team. All right. A really good pick and roll partner with with Luke and Austria. That's a big ask because there's a there's a first team of defensive center who plays in San Antonio. He's probably going to be getting that position. This brother. I know. But anyway, that's what they need. So the question. Did you argue like brought like brother? I know. I know. What are you to go to your own? Good. We're about to have a more time of no podcast for three days. I'm about to come to Jackass, like Al Abontim's going. The question is, is Walker Kessler going to be that player? It's hard to say. Well, for one, let's make sure that he's completely healthy. That's all in labor. I'm, you know, I mean, like that I understand, Mick Mann that he's probably going to be completely healthy. But let's consider the possibility that he has to be completely healthy. For me, it's less about the money because I thought the money was fine. The fact that you are now hamstrung and landlocked to all of this having to work. Like there is no wiggle room with any of these guys like Luca has to be in premium tip top shape. Austin Reeves has to get better on defense. If, if nothing goes being a better team defender, a funnler, being able to funnel guys down to Walker Kessler, I do think that he's a top line defensive player. But potentially he's got Lemp, he's empty. He can block south of both arms and all that type of stuff. But when you give up all your draft capital, I think they have one first round picking in the next seven years. Is that what it is, Wendy? Do they, do they control their one first round pick? I think it's a swap. What they have is they still have control of other now. It's either swap. Yeah, but they can't trade it. Yeah. They can swap it. No, I mean, they entered the summer with three first round picks they could trade. One of them was in the draft, which they used on Cameron car. He's there now. And then they traded the two others that they could have. 32 they could trade a swap, but that they can't trade the pick itself. So you don't have any wiggle room here when you have three players making, let's say what close to eight. Is it 70% of the cap or was it more than that? 55. That was a 73% 70. Okay. So that was impressive. McMahon. That was nice. Good job. So you get three players making 73% of the cap. Like compared to Boston, if I remember correctly, Tatum Brown and Derek White made like 84% of the cap. And that was too much for the Celtics to bear all things considered. The Lakers are not in the exact same position, but they don't have the wiggle room. They don't have the breathing room. And the draft picks usually are your breathing room. A to get cheap talent year over year to wind up augmenting your players being on big time salaries to cause control of all that. Secondarily, being able to put a draft pick in a trade at the deadline. If you need to, they don't have any of those mech. Any of those mechanisms right now, you look at, do are they athletic enough? That's the question. Are they athletic enough aside from Walker Kessler, who's clearly an above average athlete playing center? But do you have enough athleticism around this ball club to make you a better perimeter defensive team? Because if you're not, because if you're not, it don't matter that you get Walker Kessler at the rim, if everybody's on a freeway down there, you're going to get this guy in foul trouble and or put him in so many damp collisions and picking roles that he can't cover all that space that he's going to need to like a, a GM told me is Rob Polink are trying to give fire. That's with somebody. That's what a GM asked me yesterday. I think he's trying not to get fired. Well, and the Kessler thing will that bison time, it definitely bison time with Luke. And there's, there's that kind of pressure going in it. Like if they come up empty handed on the center of the summer, they were going to have a real massive five alarm fire on their hands. Now, but the athleticism, who is their best perimeter defender? Is it Bronny James? I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding. Quentin Grimes is an okay perimeter to think about. Well, the other thing about Quentin Grimes, I mean, he had a great year last year for Philly, but he doesn't have what they call positional size. So he's like 6465. And if you're having a, so you know, sex and the signing of sex and, you know, indicates he'll be their third guard. So what you're going to, I assume, you know, I don't know for sure. We haven't heard from JJ Reddick yet, but what I assume is two of the three of sex and Reeves and don't that you're going to be out there most of the time. So that means that Grimes is going to be asked to defend wings, right? He's going to be asked to defend guys who are bigger than him. So he's, he's not a bad defender, but he's not, but he's got a guard, she ain't a playoff series. He's got a guard aunt in a playoff series. You know, Luca has great positional size. Luca's got amazing, you know, ideally you got a six foot eight guy. You could put him on a wing, but they have to put Luca on the, typically the weakest perimeter offensive player to strictly to save them. And probably also have to put Reeves on that guy. Well, that's, I did. And why they came for Kessler. Right. Exactly. And that's why I have not rim protectors. So key. But again, you want to surround Luca with this much shooting. The center's critical. They did that. You want to surround him with as much shooting as possible and like mom was a shooter. Mom who over Rui, I don't know what Rui's looking for. I don't know where Rui's going to land by the way, but I don't know that mom was an upgrade over Rui who shot a better and 40% from three the last three years. And is a more athletic guy. Mom was a little bit bigger and a better rebounder, but that one was interesting to me. Concepts and over either smart or connoord. Connards, obviously, one of the best shooters in the league. Look, I know Marcus smarts not near his prime, but he was their best perimeter defender last year. So I don't know, man, they are. It's going to be. They've got their, their core trio in place. And it's going to be very hard for them to maneuver and upgrade around that given that they blew all their, all their draft capital is blown out of the water. Now, you know, they'll get another pick kind of every year type of thing to play with. But, you know, this car kid is a, is a super athlete. We'll see if you can, you know, we'll see what he becomes. Maybe he's an answer to some of these questions. And then look, the Lakers do have the advantage of being the Lakers in sunny Southern California to where like the minimum market and those sort of things are always going to have an advantage there. So I'm not saying it's impossible, but I don't think this Lakers team is better than last year's Lakers team, which wasn't good enough to, you know, to contend in the West. Well, it's funny. You said the Lakers were on the clock. I think we need to introduce all of the listeners viewers to a unfortunate reality about this NBA that we're in. Every franchise is on the clock that has a franchise player locked under contract. It's not just, it's fun that Kauai gets traded and Janus gets traded. Or Jalen Brown gets traded and everything else. You can be as great as you want to be. You are one of bad 12 to 18 months sent away from that being your franchise and that being your franchise player. The bad side about how these things with these contracts are not forever anymore. The days of the seven year max or the six year max that doesn't happen. So as soon as you sign your deal, you're going to be up for an extension in two years. And in those two years, once again, going back to it, if you are not going to resign with your team, you're going to be traded. If you don't want to resign with your team, they're going to trade you. Like this is what this is. So it's not specific to Luca that the Lakers were on the clock. Go look around at every superstar worth his salt in the NBA right now. Every team is on the clock. The clock is just a lot longer. No, go home to city and in San Antonio because they are so well set up for now. Under one title number one. Yeah. Right. By the way, can I say I started Boston a couple years ago. Fair point fair point. I was speak going roll back to Walker Custer's contract. I was talking to sort of surveying the league and they said to me, um, this guy said to me, goes, Hey, you know, who did a nice job? And it's kind of gotten buried over by everything is the thunder on that extension with Isaiah Heartenstein. Um, you know, is a three year extension for 75 million. So the average annual value is 25. Now they added it onto what he had. But his previous, I think the man was 27 or 28. They ripped up the team option and he took a haircut to help him with luxury tags. He took a mild haircut in a summer where you know, Walker, you know, Walker Custer gets 32. Um, we're seeing, you know, backups get, um, you know, Robert Williams and Mitchell Robbins. And they're high level backups, but those guys are backups and they're getting 15 million a year. And you know what's funny? It's, it's the same agent, same primary agent, air and men's of CAA, but it's two completely different circumstances. You had Walker Custer, which look, Walker Custer really wanted to be a pick and roll partner in glamour, SLA with a the best pick and roll creator in the league. Simple fact. And he wanted to get paid. He was able to accomplish that. He got Walker Custer. What do you want to Isaiah Heartenstein really want to stay in Oklahoma City where he's won a championship where he's become like just this beloved figure where he's poured himself into the community. He did not want to leave. He wanted to stay. He was willing to take less than Mark Evalier to stay and he got what he wanted. So same agent to totally different circumstances and that's why the contract looks so different. Okay, so we'll see what happens with the Lakers. I know everyone is, I was impressed that they were able to get Kessler done. I thought the price was heavy. Vetti, were you on first take with me when it came back? Yes. So last year I was live on first take when the mile, how about this for story time? Story time. All right, this is brought to you by SoFi. Get your money right. So last year we're on first take and the mile's turner thing happens. And remember how that came out of absolute nowhere, right? So all of a sudden. Because it was also the Damien Lillard thing. Damien Lillard stretch, yeah. Right, we didn't know. So all of a sudden, and I want to say it was about July 2nd. It was sort of like, it was a little bit after, I don't know. So anyway, we're here in LA and we're sitting in these rooms. And, you know, because we're not all on set together. And so we're in different rooms. So, and Bobby Marx is out here and Bobby is in his other. He's got his own room. And by the way, you know, he upgraded this year. McMahon, he used to. Bobby used to have his laptop and then at the trade deadline and free agency, he would add a little, a little side screen to the side of his laptop. It's made like a little. It was like a half screen. So we had like a little extra space. This year Bobby has upgraded to a whole second screen. He walks around with a double screened laptop. Now, that's how it's very. People like roll like a big screen TV with his little. Maybe that'll be next year. Yeah. With this touchscreen ready to go. So, so basically there's this hallway here in our. In a way of studios here, but then there's this hallway where there's different rooms where we're on TV, like, you know, it's looking at a camera. I'm in one of the rooms now, okay? And so Bobby's in like in like another room where he's doing his thing. So I'm on first take. And we go breaking news, Shamsharani reports, Miles Turner signing with the bucks, four years, 105 million dollars. And I go, "Holy, we're gonna react to him. We come back from the break." I go, "Holy hell, where the hell did they get? 100. " You know, they didn't have salary cap space. Right. And settle, and settle, why would they do that? How did they do that? Right. So I, I stick. I come out of the chair, you know, unplug my microphone and my headset. And I come out of the chair and I open the door and I yell down to Bobby, "Where the hell are they getting. the cap space for Miles Turner? Are they doing a sign of trade?" He goes, "No." I go, "Oh, I close the door." And then, and then I get, I hear over our, over the head, they're like, "Yeah, it sounds like Shamsharani says they're gonna wave Damian Lillard." I go, "You've got to be kidding me." And I, when I open the door again and I yell down to Bobby, "Bobby, are they waving and stretching Damian Lillard?" "Yeah, slam the door. You got to be kidding me. Open the door again. How much is that gonna cost him? He goes, "Hold on a second. It's gonna cost him whatever a million over six years. Slam the door again." "I've got to do a year for five years, I think it is." "Go back and sit in the chair and I'm all worked up. I got my my my my my face is flushed." "The makeup starting to run?" "Yes, absolutely. We come back from break." We come back from break. I should have just calmed down. I shouldn't have been a reactionary to this thing. And I go, "This is like mortgaging your mortgage to buy a sports car. I just scream that out in the moment. No idea to this one what the hell I was talking about. Three hundred sixty five days later, I stand by it." Yeah, well listen, Miles Turner shout out to Sofah. He damn sure got his money right. Just like Walker Kessler got there. He got his money right. More hoop collective podcast after this. So Vinnie, what happened yesterday? We said it's still more thing happened yesterday, right? We were talking about what's the Laker strategy and I'm like they don't look like they have a strategy. They haven't done anything. Boom boom boom boom boom. And literally as soon as we go to commercial, it's like, "Ha ha, we got something for you." They haven't done anything. Polenka hits the domino. And then of course, our intrepid social team, of course, puts the clip out. Always on our side. And as opposed to like them deleting it or whatever, like, all right, cool. It's out there. It's in the world. You can find it on your social television. Yeah, it's out there. I'm like, hey, sometimes you sometimes you say stuff in like you're doing live TV, or you're doing a live podcast, you work with the information you get and then sometimes the information changes and the information changed. And Vinnie was like, wait, how many first-round picks? It was like, that's what happened. So the Courtney Cronin who's hosting the show, Shays out this week. Courtney Cronin says, Lakers get Walker Custer in a sign and trade. Four years, 130 million. I go, that sounds, that sounds all right. Let me get my phone out and do them. I was like, 32, that sounds all right. I go, for two first-round picks, I was like, all right, like pricey, but not bad. So I'm reacting live on air. I haven't even seen the tweet yet at all. And so, like, hey, that's it. First off, this is a, this is a smash hit to get a franchise center. They didn't overpay on salary. Like, you know, maybe it's a little heavy, but I, okay, I'm fine with it. And two first-round picks, like that's steep, but, you know, not ridiculous, not bad. Like two first-round picks a few hours later got you, Jaylen Brown. So I was like, okay. And so we're reacting, talking about it. And so while I think Vinnie is talking, I look down at Shom's tweet that's like two first-round picks and two pick swaps. And I saw that the first-round picks were 31 and 33 unprotected. So way out. That's what they had available. I understand, but I just had to see it. And then I, Vinnie, I stopped it. I said, halt. And I want to amend my position. And look, 31 and 33, Luca will be about, I think he'll be 31 and 33 in those years actually from my mistake. And so if Luca's still there, then it might not, the price might not end up being that steep. You could have said the same thing when the Mavericks traded for PJ Washington. And then when the Mavericks traded for Daniel Gafford. And let me just tell you, the Mavericks people were criticized for those trades. Nico was criticized the moment for those trades and then hailed form when the Mavericks went to the finals months later. Now I will go out on all of them and predict this. If Luca leaves L.A., it's not because the Lakers decided to backstab him and dump him in the middle of the night. If he leaves L.A., it's going to be because this thing didn't work out. And he feels like I've got to find some place to win a championship. But again, I think the price of this trade and whether the Lakers overpaid in terms of what they gave to the jazz is going to be determined by if Luca's still in L.A. and if he's able to stay healthy, that'll be the primary factor. Because if they're giving up 20-somethings and you can live with that and you can live with the obviously hamstrings in terms of operating. But like the Mavericks are a startup top two protected pick next year. The year after, what they did to get Gafford is they got the Thunder's Pick and gave up 28 swap rights. I mean, they sold 29 in a separate deal. That was Kyrie, so it's worth it. But that's Houston's property now. And then the 30 swap is actually hilarious. That was a sign and trade to get Grant Williams, who was here for like three months. And to dump Reggie Bullock on the spurs, they gave up swap rights in 2030. So again, if but if Luke was still here, you could live with it all. But the way things worked out, Boyle Boye does he look dumb. All right. I want to take a look at the sixers roster. Now that it's been so much a focus on Boston and rightly so. But let's look at what the sixers, you know, because the sixers had quite a day on the second day of free agency. So they lost, we mentioned just Quentin Grimes, who was a nice player for them. I don't think it would have made sense for them to pay him $16 million. I don't know. That's my snap of it. It's a great, it's a really good deal for him. No question. They also lost Kelly Ubrei, who I thought had a really good year last year. And by the way, at two years, 17 million, which was what the the the the the paster assigned him for. That's I think good value. I think Ubrei had a good year last year. He's proven he can defend multiple positions. I like that signing for for Indiana. Man, how the sixers going to replace that wing production? Okay. Hey, listen, Paul George had a good shooting the last year. Just, you know, like it's having him be a three and D corner spot up shooter for 50 whatever million, $57 million is not what you're looking for. But, you know, he didn't have a terrible year. He did get suspended for 25 games for P.D.s or or not even P.D.s. But whatever was. Yeah. Okay. So Paul George played 78 games over two years for them. Listen, Chris F. Pursing has played 70 games over two years for three different teams and got 40 million. So what do I know? The sixers also signed Dean Wade. They brought him over from the calves on a four year deal for a little under 40 million. That's Mike Gansy, a sign of the guy that he found in Cleveland and nurtured. He's basically, he replaces Uber, but he's bigger. He's 6'10". It could defend 3'4" and 5" whereas Uber is more of a 2" and 3" and I guess 4" under certain circumstances, but more of a 2" and 3" defender. And they signed Arielle Huckporti to a little bit more than the minimum away from the Nix. Is the Nix lost 2" centers yesterday? Yeah, I was going to say interest in the Nix weren't willing to do that because they are scouring the market looking for a backup center after Mitrobnson left. Yeah, and they knew Mitch was going to leave and they still, they could have made Huckporti restricted by just offering him $2.5 million off qualifying offer and they didn't even do that. And that's a guy they drafted and developed, which was, you know, I know Jim Dolan's had a couple of mandates, which is one of which is not we're not going to the second apron, but one of his other big mandates has been we got to draft and develop guys. And this is a guy they drafted and developed. Hey, I mean, they used him at times in the playoffs. Like he got playoff minutes. Anyway, none they did a little thing called, known as trading for Jalen Brown. Okay, so let's take a look at their roster right now. And it's hard when we're about to do an NBA today show here in LA and they're going to put the sixers starters like projected starters up during the A block and I'm kind of like, well, go ahead and put Joe up there if you want. I mean, projected ideal. So obviously this is a team that was largely instilled. It will be built around Maxi and Edgcomb and their speed. And so the question events really is how, how and where does Jalen fit in playing with high speed guards Maxi and Edgcomb because that's the guy that I mean, you know, if you have them beat and you know, he's getting the ball and Jalen can educate him on his flopping and whatnot. That's a different. You know, you're going to play a certain way with him, but you're probably going to have to fit in with the guards. And this is going to be a different style than Jalen's played because this is not the way the Celtics play. No, and also defensively because he won't have so much offensive responsibility because you have in theory in theory, Jalen beat, which always sounds like a good idea. And then reality happens. He's going to have to be a better defender like I saw some metrics and stuff and some numbers that said he was a below average defender this year. And I think that he has the bones of being above and well above average defender. But when you look at where they are, I was just crunching the numbers guys. We talked about the Celtics having like 84% of the cap being tied up in those three guys. The 76% of the three guys because Paul George makes it. Sorry. Yeah. It's basically a financial wash next season. But they were really top heavy to start with. Yeah. That's the thing. They have 88% of their cap tied in Joel and B. Tyree's Maxi and now Jalen Brown. And once again, I don't know what we're going to see out of Joel and B. Like I was filled up the 76% of fans get mad at me. But when I saw them lose game, one of their series I knew they were cooked against the nicks when they went home on Mother's Day weekend and it sticks out with me. So we're really got taken over and you got beaten by 30 and every game. And that was basically with a running clock. I don't know how Jalen Brown changes all of that. Especially if the Celtics have graded him out to be so poor or whatever it wasn't and so many different areas like I'm fascinated by how all of this is going to work. Like their number one thing outside of Tyree's Maxi should be we need to develop BJ Attica. That is our future there because he ain't making Maxi money but he will be a Maxi player at some point in the near future. Like don't just go around collecting things. And I'm not saying that Jalen Brown is like, Hey, just going out collecting things. Maybe they bought it. They picked up a depreciated asset and you get rid of Paul George. So you're looking at this as a positive. But they also have to keep their eye on the ball and not be so inundated with. We got to maximize Jalen beat when we saw what happens when you go without Jalen beat and then you bring them back. You wind up losing sight of everything that you've been in the meantime. So part of the problem with the Celtics was Jalen Brown's fit with Jason Tatum and his level of happiness fitting as a co-star and not as the man. This is Tyrese Maxi's team. Maybe still Joel and Beade's franchise. So how does Jalen Brown fit in all that? If Beade's health is on the floor, is it instead of your turn, my turn is it? Your turn, my turn, his turn. How do they, it's not fantasy basketball. So how do to do those three coexist and enhance each other, not to track from each other? So that's going to be like Nick Nurse has got an interesting situation on his hands to try to figure out how to maximize. And look, the criticism of Joel, I'm sorry, not of Beade, of Jalen Brown from the nerd community is not that he's a bad player or even that he's inefficient or any of those things. It's that he doesn't make the guys around him better. It's that these Celtics were worse with him on the floor than they were when he was off the floor. Damn near every season of his career, including this year when he was the man, but even in previous years, now they were still very good with him all the time, but they were better with him off the floor. So how does all that fit? And I just want to like, I wonder how Jalen Brown feels about the situation where I think it's one thing if he'd been traded to Milwaukee. And clearly he was going to be the best player on that team. And he was going to be one A and they were going to figure out how to put a supporting cast around him or at least try. That's not what this, that's not where he's walking into here. I agree. Yeah. So this is, this is, it's a great point. And also point out he's got three years on his contract, no option. So you know, like, that's a great point. No option, but probably expectations of an extension. There's been so much drama. I don't even know where that, where that leaves itself. And look, they are, edge comes going to be a heck of a player. I don't watch college basketball, but this kid they drafted from Alabama has clearly got some talent. There was some, you know, some people were surprised by the fact that he's slid into the early 20s, you know, which is where they ended up getting in Maxx, by the way. The Baron Philan, is that I'm pronouncing that right? That's why I said that kid from Alabama because I'm not trying to pronounce his last message. Yeah. I mean, he was a guy who was sort of seen as potential late lottery, mid to late lottery, Vinnie, right? And then he, yeah, miss early lottery. And he was certainly, he had a, he had a, he had a bit of a, you know, a bit of a face on like when he got drafted. Like, I think he feels a certain way about it. And, and then oh, by the way, there's that picture, my Gancy's brother put out and when do you know a bunch of these guys that was it? What was that from like an Ohio All-Star game or whatever? So yeah, so Steve and, Steve and Gancy's brother. So Mike Gancy's from the East side of Cleveland. And Mike Gancy's the new president of basketball ops and Philly came from Cleveland. And he was Trump Cleveland. And while he was in high school, Mike was like a Cleveland playing dealer All-Star, like all of the whole, you know, in, in the Northeast Ohio media area here. But the playing dealer had is seven counties that sort of is the makes up greater Cleveland. And you know, making the All-Playing Dealer team was considered a big deal. And they would bring all of them together for like a, for a photo shoot. And they, you know, they would have to be like catered and they would, sometimes this is where they would meet. And so there's this photo shoot with these guys in it. And one of them is LeBron. I think he must have been a freshman because Maverick Carter is one of the, is the other. Maverick and LeBron only played together one year. So it must have been 2000, the year 2000. The Cleveland playing deal. 99. No, because LeBron was a freshman 99. Oh, no, no, no. I'm thinking, yeah, me and LeBron are the same age, but he's a year behind him. I'm going to go. Let's don't question Wendy on Northeast Ohio. So the way you're right. You're right. I'm sorry. Cleveland playing dealer All-Star basketball team. My bad, Wendy. The concept of the point is is that Mike, because Mike Gancy is like standing next to LeBron with his arm on LeBron's shoulder. Like boy, look at these guys. These were buddies. Let me be Gancy's brother and just drop this on social media right after they make the J.L. Brown trade. Could you imagine? Right. I mean, look, what are the odds? By the way, he didn't, I mean, it's cool. I liked it. It was memory lane. I remember some of the other players in the, in the photo and covering them. Gancy was on the Cav staff when LeBron won a championship. Like they should, they have a ring together. Like, you didn't need to be someone on. But even what? Exactly. Well, listen, the sixers are somewhere on the long list of teams that have a level of interest. I don't know for sure, but they have to call. Yeah. I mean, Tony Jones from the athletic reported that they've registered their interest. And again, it's along the list. But could you imagine if you dropped LeBron at a certain point, it does become a, how many basketballs are available type of thing? Yeah. It'd be an awkward fit, but you have to call it. Like again, if I were, if I were, you guys have heard what I've said about, you know, make a move to, you know, what, like for example, example. If I were Josh Kronke, the governor of the Denver Nuggets, okay, I would find out what golf course LeBron is on today. And I would fly my plane to that golf course. And I would bring along a case of screaming eagle. I don't know anything about wine, but I know that the Kronke family owns this screaming eagle, eagle winery in California. And it's one of the most expensive and rare things you can get in the U.S. I would have a case of that wine with me. And I would have two phones. On one phone, I would have Nicola Yokic. One for the plug, one for the load. What? Oh, nothing. I would have Nicola Yokic face timing from Serbia saying LeBron, let's play together. And on the other phone, I would have Rich Paul, LeBron's agent, why would negotiate a contract extension for Peyton Watson, and Rapples represented by Klock saying, let's make a deal. This is what I'm talking about as what I think you need. Joker get reception at the at the stables in Serbia. Then send somebody over there with a phone that make it make it enough. Figure it out. Right. Once again, Denver's on the clock. Nicola Yokic extension eligible. Everybody that you think is stable on the clock. Denver thinks they're in great shape with Yokic and everything's going to be fine. But obviously they've got to work to do on that roster. And other teams are monitoring. You know who else has worked to do windy? The Detroit pistons. They're very curious if they know that free agency has begun. They got John Collins. I was a little bit loopy on the show on NBA today, yesterday. They lost Tobias Harris who resigned for the mid-level. Now maybe Tobias would not have resigned for the mid-level for the for the pistons. And I don't know. I don't want to assume that. But Tobias goes for the mid-level. You replace him with John Collins. He's more of a lob threat. I agree than Tobias is. So maybe with Kate Cunningham. But they held onto their caps face and their expiring contract. They held onto their expiring contracts in the middle of season to trade deadline. When it was clear that they could have used some offensive help. Then they get into the summer and they resign Kevin Hearder for 9 million a year. And I'm happy for Kevin Hearder. But Landry Shammett got 6 million a year and shot 10% more and was a playoff contributor. Hearder got 9 million dollars a year. They trade for Isaiah Joe. Excellent trade. High nice value. Okay. But he's a backup. And I mean shooting. I know they need shooting. And they address that. But they they they lost Isaiah Stewart. Antobias Harris replaced him with John Collins. Is that the move of a team that's taking the next step Vince? I mean, I don't know. I know. I know. I don't want to be a jerk. I'm not trying to be a jerk. And there's still the Jalen Duran thing. Kessler going to LA certainly. They're going to keep him. He's going to be. But it's it's messy. They need a they need a second score. It's one thing guys to be prudent with your salary cap space to not rush and do anything rash like you know trading for Blake Griffin when you're not sure what type of condition he's in and everything else like previous regimes. But you can't come to you can't come to the back to the table with Kevin Hearder who gave you virtually nothing during the playoffs last year. You lose a big part of your identity with Isaiah Stewart. And you're sitting there holding nothing but salary cap space and Jalen during his heart feelings because that situation no matter what happens with that that situation is not going to be tough once you heard a guy's feelings on something like a young guy's films on restricted free agency. I don't know it doesn't bowed well. Right. You got to repair that relationship one way or the other. And everybody knew that the Detroit persons needed a second guy and look at how many teams have gotten better this off season. And think about Indiana coming back like I don't know what a person sitting the power rankings but it ain't high. I'm just afraid that as soon as we wrap this pot will have made some. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For example, Norm Powell would have filled a glaring need for the pistons as that second score, you know, a guy who can create a shooter alongside Kate Cunningham. But Norm Powell decided he would rather get more money in Chicago and more shots in Chicago than come to Detroit. Like Norm, if they'd assigned Norm Powell, I'd be sitting there saying, Hey man, that's a really, really great fit for Detroit. He's not a superstar, but he's an all star who who fits. But they, I don't know. Can you trade for Tyler hero? Like can you pull off something in the trademark with the flexibility and the picks that you have? They've got to find something because bringing back a team that feels like hit their head on the ceiling in the second round last year after barely getting out of the first round. That's a tough look, man. No, it's not only that. You signed John Collins not into the trade exception money or even mid-level. You signed them for more so you don't even have those mechanisms. You couldn't even sign Norm Powell into your cap space. If you wanted to, just because it was not just because, but $2 million more. And Tobias Harris wanted probably a little bit more money from Detroit than he was willing to accept somewhere else. And Detroit was not willing at I'm guessing his age and everything else, considering they went younger with John Collins. But you can't look at that roster and say, man, JB Bickerstaff's got a lot more to play with this year, especially for a team that max stopped on the defensive end like you said, McMahon, to win 60 games. And as soon as everybody else started playing playoff defense, you saw what it was like. And everybody's loading up. That would be the frustrating thing. If I'm a pistons fan, everybody in the east is loading up. What are y'all doing? Well, we'll see what they're doing. Maybe they're going to do something next time. Maybe. Maybe just start it be just not look windy. Hey, be sure to check out Game Changers where we look at America's top 25 female athletes with an unforgettable countdown. Be sure to watch on the Roku channel to find out who made the list. All right. Okay. Thank you so much to our producer, Mark Tucker, Jackson. Thank you very much to McMahon and Vinnie. Thank you for watching. Listen, who collect of all week long because we've had a lot of content. We've had great numbers on them. That's why they keep making me do them. And I look forward to a couple of days off. Can we do that, please? Lebron, I'm talking to you. Thank you very much. All right. We'll talk to you hopefully early next week. Adios amigos. Oh, we enjoy the holiday. Oh, 250 America. Sorry, McMahon. I didn't mean to step on here. Good chart. Adios amigos.