This episode of Better in Persons is presented by ChatGPT. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Download the new ChatGPT desktop app today. Hey there, it's Stephen Dubner. This is the second episode of a new video interview show we've just launched called Better in Persons. If you'd rather watch it, which I would suggest you do, that's what it was made for. It is on the Frekenomics YouTube channel, but we're also happy to provide this podcast version of Better in Persons for your ears only. As always, thanks for listening. When people send back food, the whole rumor of a chef spitting. Please. I've never seen it. No, and that's fucking stupid. Like, come on. This is Better in Persons with Stephen Dubner and Hillary Sterling. There aren't many things in this world that you absolutely need to survive and which also bring great pleasure. Food is one of them. For some people, it is so pleasurable to cook for others that they build a career out of it, but it is a relentlessly demanding way to make a living. I recently met a chef who doesn't seem to have lost the pleasure of cooking. Hillary Sterling is executive chef at Chisiamo, a big, successful, very loud kitchen in New York City. She was born and raised in Brooklyn, and she built her career in New York restaurants, like Bobby Flays, Mesa Grill, and the Michelin starred Avoce. So when Hillary invited me into the kitchen at Chisiamo, I, of course, said yes, and I had barely finished saying hello before she threw me right into the fire. Can you give me the torch? Chris, can you give me your coat? Hey, can you give me the torch? Hillary leads me over to the big wood-fired oven and hands me the blowtorch to start today's cook fire. Oh, I love a flamethrower. Chisiamo celebrates live fire Italian cookin. Fire is fun until it's not. Can I see your hands help burn, are you? I mean, not, not. No, the burn, if you have burns, I mean, you're not paying attention. Do you remember that burn? I do, I remember all of them. Sterling points to a scar just above her right wrist. I mean, this one, this one right here, it was in 2003. It was in the oven at Mason Girl. Yeah, yeah, this one. Where were you making? I was reaching in the oven for my pork tenderloins. And the guy next to me, Carlos, we were both reaching at the same time. And I moved over so that he could get his steak or whatever out of the oven. And I hit inside, there's bars inside the oven. That's what that was. So you learned a very important lesson that day? Stopping so flight, yeah. Yeah, does it work? Does it lighten this work in a kitchen? I would think you have to really be a little bit strong headed, back then, it was a little different. But it took about a year for Carlos and I to work well together. And I loved working with him the other two years last year. Hillary now shows me how she makes cut your way pepe two ways with fresh pasta and with dried pasta. Before we taste, she asks me to listen as she tosses it in the pan. There we go. See that noise? That's what I'm looking for. We teach people how to make pasta with their eyes closed sometimes. It's pretty-- it's an erotic endeavor, isn't it? Yes, I mean, the whole thing about it. I even say it, but yes. But I teach them how to cook by using their senses. And that's my fault. What's wrong with that? People, humans, are imperfect. And guests do not want things that are imperfect. OK, now for a taste off between the fresh pasta and the dry. I try the dry pasta first. I mean, I'm doing right now what everybody I've ever seen eating on a food show doesn't do because what can you do other than say, mmm, but it's really good. So what I like is that the pepperyness is intense and constant. Really, really good. Is that one? Yeah. And next up, mmm, that was a fresh. It doesn't taste as good. I hate to say it. Fresh pasta is not taste as good as dried pasta. It's delicious. Don't get me wrong. But I think because the texture is different, which so it made it kind of easy to tell. I like the al dente. And I think the al dente is more fun with the emotion of cheese and butter and pepper, that's all. 100% yeah. This feels weirdly. The homemade feels more kind of like food that I would make is it like not very kind of a little bit mushy, no offense once again. Can I have a fork? He's just called my pasta mushy. This is really good. Thanks. I like making pasta, so I should do it for a living. I like it, yeah. [LAUGHTER] Since Hillary Sterling cooked for me, I decided to return the favor by making her a hearty fish stew. It's a lot of fish. Oh, god, that sounds so good. OK, I'm not going to lie. This is a good looking fish stew. When she arrived for our conversation, I had the stew ready to go, and I was excited to share it, because who doesn't like a nice fish stew? I brought her into the kitchen. So she could see it simmering away on the stove. I was so moved that you fed me so well. So generously, that I wanted to make something for you. And this is a little, I made a fish stew. What do you think? You're just laughing at my stew. That's what I hear most. Yeah, it looks delicious. OK, either A, it looks terrible, B, you're not hungry, C, you don't like fish or deer insulted by stew. I know, I have this thing about soup. I'm really like-- You don't like soup, or like stew. But I'm looking with clam chowder. This is like clam chowder, except it's fish. And what kind of fish? Who else is it? Do you eat fish also? No, I love fish. Love fish. So I buy fish for the stew from Fresh Direct, who sell fish cubes. Fish cubes. I'm sorry. You're not selling beef, you're in my any means. What's the fish cubes do? I'm sorry. Hillary is just published her first cookbook called Amata. And it has a recipe for garlic confi. So I added a little something else to the table that I thought she might like. What's that? That's tomb. You know, tomb, T-O-U-M, garlic, like garlic, whipped, whipped raw garlic. Whipped raw garlic? I think that's what it is. I first discovered it, but I didn't actually make this. But I thought this might go good on our bear bread. Wow, that's going to be powerful. You're-- I'm really nervous now. You're regretting ever agree to come here. No, because my head's spinning of like how many things did everyone tell you that I don't like? What else don't you like, though? Other than soup. Is it just soup? It's pretty much just soup. Soup is like raw garlic. It's like raw garlic. No worries. I ladle the soup into the bowls. I'm going to give you a very small serving. Thank you. OK, you're welcome. And you don't have to finish it. And I want to make sure you get a little bit of fish that's not too cubist. Well, I mean, your presentation, though. I mean, those little potatoes-- they can potatoes are regular. You cook them. I'm so insulted. I'm so-and-so. They're not canned potatoes. I didn't actually know you get canned potatoes. My mom used to serve me all the time, yeah. No, this is made deeply from scratch with total love. OK. The only thing I didn't do was to find out how much you hate soup. She takes her first bite. No, no. That's right. Sorry. [LAUGHS] It really-- actually, it reminds me of something like that my grandmother would have totally made 100% because she would definitely-- Did you love your grandmother? Very much. So. And did you forgive her for making food that you maybe didn't love? I didn't know. I didn't love it. You only know now that you don't love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think three bites is really sufficient to show that you're-- I've had two. Two was good. Would you like some bread? I ate a potato. I love potatoes. I'm clearing this. It was delicious. Thank you. [LAUGHS] But I can get past this. It's delicious. I'm at a third bite. I feel-- I don't want you to feel rejected. I don't think I could have made something that Hillary Sterling hated more if I had tried. I guess feeding someone isn't just about how something tastes. It's about how it makes them feel. Maybe what it makes them remember. So I fix Hillary a cocktail, which she does like, and we sit down in my living room to talk. What's funny, I think, is your mind works totally different than mine. Because I'm always trying to categorize, and you're just trying to synthesize, I think. I mean, yeah, I just want to dissect. I want to organize. OK. You want to create. All right, we're done. OK, we're done. [LAUGHTER] All right, question. Say your name and what you do. Sure. Full name. [LAUGHS] How many names are there? Is there a middle name? There is, but I don't need to do that. I'd like to know. You want to know? So there's also, it's a stupid story behind it, which does not in the book fairies. My middle name is Gene. OK. And my mom named me after her aunt, Gene. But it turns out the cat's name was Gene. And her name was Minnie. [LAUGHTER] So your mom was just wrong? Yeah. Who was named, too, and the family? Yes. OK. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. OK, let me try to ask the most-- Just to paint that picture of my mom. [LAUGHTER]
Wait, possible. In what way would you say your family is atypical? - Yeah, I mean, I think, I don't, I don't, - Do you wanna just describe your-- - You're trying to be polite about this. - You don't have to be polite. - My mom's still alive. I have to be polite. I'm sorry, it's okay. - Don't be impolite. - She's like, she fed us cream cheese sandwiches on wonder bread and apple sauce. So why do you think I'm like afraid of texture? Like, yeah. - I understand. - And that's why I'm a chef. - My mom that ruined my fish chowder, really, if you go back to that. - She would never, I mean, that she would open a can, a minute progresso. - Okay. - But she fed you too much mush. - Too much mush. I mean, canned potatoes on brisket, what was called not brisket. It was called like, London broil, whatever she could. Whatever that. - Mum, yeah. - I don't even know what cut to meat that is. - It's still around, it looks like a brick. - Yeah. - It's got a kind of-- - And there's like no fat. And it was just like, do rye with canned potatoes and that lipped in like French onion soup mix. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are Dumot chefs that you know, did they grow up eating so poorly? - No, I think I'm someone of an anomaly in that realm because of, I think a lot of chefs today, especially now, they had access to all that. They had good restaurants. Like, sheep's and bait wasn't the capital of like cuisine here in Brooklyn by any means. And like, so I think this was my search of something. - Tell me life story, but quickly. Good morning, Ray's, same house, my dad Grepon. My grandparents bought it in the '40s and they lived downstairs in the basement, which I always think about. This is so fucked up that we put them in the basement and we lived upstairs, was their house. - And what was it like growing up with your grandparents? - It was awesome, the house smelled different. When they were there, my grandparents were like, these really, really fun individuals. They would go to, they would, they just loved life. Or it appeared so. I mean, they argued like every other couple and very loudly and it was really funny. But like, they just, they appreciated what they had. - When did you begin to think that you might wanna make food for a living? - I worked in restaurants at 14. 'Cause they're in Montauk, 'cause I could walk there. - What was Montauk like, just a fishing village? - It was an amazing fishing village. - And you spent all your summers there. Oh, so that explains a lot about you, I think. You love the water, I understand. - I love the water, yes. - You love sharks? - I'd love sharks. - What is that? See, I knew everything about you, except that you don't like soup. - I can't even know when mentioned that. (laughing) Like all those three people know how I feel. - Maybe they did and somehow subconsciously, I thought, you know, maybe they're wrong. - I love the water, I love sharks. I wanted to be a marine biologist. And I think instead I end up cooking them. So it's just kind of like, just for the first. No, wait a minute. When you say them, you don't serve sharks. - No, but like, I love the water. I love going to the Kona Island Aquarium. It's like my favorite thing as a kid. - So if I didn't know that you were a chef, if I just met you on a plane or something and we're having a conversation like this and just the way that you look, I would think you're a creative artist of some kind. Maybe a writer, theater, director. I think the fact that you seem that indicates what kind of chef you are. And I think that's why I like your chef-ing is because you think about food and cooking, even for 400 people, the way that I like my artists to think. And I sense that that's not the norm in the restaurant world, but maybe I'm wrong, tell me. - I mean, I think so every chef just wants a 40-seat restaurant. No one wakes up and says, man, I want to cook for this many people today. - Why is 40 the right number? - It's an easier number. It's you can do things that you can't do at-- - Say something, explain. - You could make something so beautifully and small and perfect and like, 'cause you only have to cook 10 of them. I have to cook 100 or something. So in order, so I don't mind doing volume. I've done Michelin star stuff. I've done volume. I've done rustic. I've worked at a beach side cafe. Like, you name it. I've done that spectrum. And I think the food now I cook is probably the best I've ever cooked because I'm so, I allow the resticity of it to come into play. - What does that mean? - It means like, I don't need a hat for like a nookie. Like, it doesn't mean that. Let's just make the best nookie we can make. - Yeah. - And you also, one thing I learned when I visited you is that you seem to use senses as much as science. Let's put it that way, yes? - More so. - More so. 'Cause I think people are in touch with like, I think there's so much noise out there that if you tune it all out and just focus on what you're doing, you'll hear that noise of the pan like when we made pasta. And then like squeezing the lemon. It's like this like crazy thing. It's like an interview question. I'm just like, how do you, like, I do not know. You, someone wants to put lemon juice in a squeeze bottle. You're not connecting with the lemon to dress the salad. - Do you feel that serving people food is kind of way up there on the scale of great things to do as a human? Because I must feel like you're, you know, part of the life-sustaining force or something. - That's also immediate gratification, right? You're getting immediate feedback too, right? So like you're, you can see it's like when people manage, we're managing a real time. You're serving in real time. There's no like, and it's kind of, I enjoy thinking fast and on my feet. And this is kind of an industry that like accepts that. Where I can also like say things that I probably shouldn't say sometimes because it just comes out and I'm like, ah, that's probably a bad idea. - Like I hate your soup kind of thing. - I didn't say that once. I was actually complimented you on your soup. - When you started at the bottom, what were you doing the first few years? - Salads, fry, washing dishes sometimes. - Right. - I had a chef that likes to use every pot and maybe wash them, torture me. - You talked about being tortured in a foreign language for a while, was it? - It was just an Irish brogue. - I couldn't understand it for sure. - I was like, what? And then they like, hold up this bread. They like, go get this downstairs. And it was terrible. They made me peel onions in the basement with no ventilation. - Most people I assume would equip. - I never crossed my mind. - Hmm. - Quitting has never crossed my mind. I've never left a job because someone tortured me. - Yeah. - I've left because it was time. - Fair enough, but if you could rewind the clock or if you could remake the clock now and run restaurants differently 'cause everything I've ever read about restaurants in the kind of heyday of New York restaurant, modern heyday of restaurant culture, it sounds like everybody was tortured, and everybody was miserable, and everybody drank all the time and other things, et cetera, et cetera. And so, is that how Cheesy Amo is run? (laughing) - Restaurants used to be like that. - Yeah. I mean, a lot of industries to be fair were. - At least I have kegs in my office on Fridays. - Yeah. - So that's the drinking, but what about the people being mean in the culture of coming up? Did you experience that in the last so much? You just didn't care? - Yeah, right. - I mean, I think I was more, I remember the only times that I cried, and it had nothing to do with people. - All right, what was it? - There was one time where I was my first night on saute at Mesa Grill, and it was Labor Day Sunday night. - Big deal restaurant. - Big, big restaurant and big deal. And I ate overcooked 100 and something poor tenderloins. For hours, I just kept fucking overcooking. - What, one at a time? - Maybe four at a time, five at a time. I just hammered it, and my chef at the time gave me a two-pan pickup, which means I had to pick up this scallop dish and the accompaniment to it. And I had two burners. - Okay. - Two burners. But it wasn't the only dish I was cooking. I was cooking poor tenderloins, I was cooking. And my first night really on saute, and Sunday nights in New York City on a holiday weekend is a busy night. And I just remember getting crushed for hours, crushed. And I called my dad from New New Square and I told him about it. And I was like, totally like, he's like, you're okay. It's okay. I mean, I held myself together and then I like totally, in the walk-ins, it was a good place to cry in restaurants. But like, and he's like, okay. And I went back in the next day. And I went to my chef and I apologized for overcooking 120. - Did any of them get sent back? - I don't remember. It was kind of like a blur. And the next week, the schedule goes up. Old school on a wall, you know? And I'm on saute next Saturday night. I was like, oh my god. Someone was on vacation, so they put me there. And I was like, okay. And I go to him and I was like, are you sure? And he's like, you have seven days to be one with the pork. - I remember that from your book. - Yeah. - You'd be one with the pork, yeah. - I was like, okay. - And you became one with the pork. - I stared at these pork tenderloins for days. Cooking them, watching them, staring at the clock, trying to figure out how long it takes to cook the pork tenderloin to perfection. I was like, anchovy chili robs. Like, your hands were red at the end of the shift. Like, there was like a nub bucket. It was just, uh, well. - What's a nub bucket? - It was like, you cut off the ends and you put it in the nub and then you get into the nubs. - What happened to the nubs? - I can't, I can't ask. - Are they used? - I mean, no. But they're used in like family meal or everyone like, we make tacos, whatever. - Okay. - And there's like. - Let me say, no, they're not used except for what the other people working here are gonna eat later. - Yeah. - Okay, yeah. It's been seven days staring at pork tenderloin. And before you're on the saute again, the second time. - You're prepping? - I was like, yeah, I was like, he's like, I'm giving you a chance. - Just staring at them. You mean you're going into the-- - I'm putting them in the oven. I'm searing them. I'm watching what happens. - So this is what I'm practicing. - I'm practicing and I'm watching, they change. There's a moment where like, when I, 'cause in my head, I'm like, "Be one with the pork." I said, "I mean, oh my God, be one with the pork." I'm so like, like, literal at that time. As a cook, I'm like, "Yes, chef, be one with the pork." And I remember there was a little clock in the kitchen. It's like right there and I pulled the pork out and I was like, "Four minutes, check, timer." Four minutes, five minutes, check, time. Check, check, it's like, twist, twist, twist. And at one point, there's a moment where they glistened. This may sound so bad. (laughing) Wow, are you sure you want to keep doing this today? (laughing) (laughing) - Okay, they're glistening. - At you? - Do you like glistening at you? - Yes, you. Are you?
- I'm listening now, talking about it. - What did the glistening-- - It meant it was ready. - Oh, oh. - It meant it was ready. It finally showed me how to cook this mid-rare for 10-year-long. - So I hate to sound naive, but isn't that what like thermometers and whatnot are for? No, seriously, I mean, that's because you're right. In the last like 30 years, I feel like cooking has become extremely regimented. - Yes. - Not just, it's exploded. Everybody wants to cook. And I think it's fantastic, personally. I don't do much 'cause it's only 'cause it's time-consuming. If I had all day, I would love to. It's such a fun science project that you get to eat at the end. - Great. - But I also feel like we've been told by so many people who at least present with authority that this is the way something is done always. And if you don't, then you're making a lesser version. But the story here you're telling is very, very different. It's like food is real, we're real, yeah. - It's real, and you have to connect with it. You have to understand it. Because yeah, could I have used the thermometer? Sure. But 25 years ago, that chef didn't say, "Hey, where's your thermometer?" It wasn't even like, it didn't even cross your mind. But no one showed me how to cook the pork, right? So this conversation is like, I had to learn how to do this myself. - Yeah. - And it was really, and that was a moment that the sense is kind of like, I finally understood. I started to understand what cooking was. - I see. Okay, and what is it about you, either in your character or maybe in your, someone that you admired when you were a kid? Like, what is it about you that made you want to be that, to be giving people food as you're living? Not just as sustenance, not just as pleasure, but of all the things that it represents. - I feel like I'm a caregiver. I feel like that's what it stems from, right? Like I take care of people, you know? I love nothing more than making my son's lunch and dinner. Like, I really enjoy setting the plate up, I enjoy all those things. I think that, like, I've always been that way. And I cook for friends in high school and, like, in college and, like, that kind of stuff. I've always enjoyed it playing that role. - If this hadn't worked out, what do you think you'd be doing? - I mean, I love teaching, but that's kind of, like, how I am now. I don't think 25 years ago, I would have just tried to-- - It means that you would have been an impatient teacher back then, 'cause you're fast. You're, I can see your brain and your mouth. They move, which I love, but-- - Yeah, I would have been impatient. I'd be like, I don't understand why you don't understand. Like, you don't need me. I'm like, be one with the board, right? Like, I wish, I don't think that Chef ever understands how much that silly statement resonated with me over all these years. - Is he alive? - He is. - You'll send him the book. - Hello. - This episode of "Better and Persons" is presented by ChatGPT. ChatGPT work moves beyond answers into getting real work done. It's a new experience in ChatGPT for bigger, multi-step projects across web, mobile, and desktop. You can give ChatGPT work a goal and have it gather context, choose an approach, create the output, and continue iterating all while you stay in control. It can help turn messy inputs into useful outputs like briefs, spreadsheets, dashboards, presentations, prototypes, landing pages, and workflows. You can even ask ChatGPT work to take on entire workflows with a single request. Here's an example. It can turn customer research into a campaign brief, use that brief to create marketing assets and adapt those assets for different markets, carrying context through every step. (upbeat music) Chisiamo is one of around 20 restaurants under the umbrella of the Union Square Hospitality Group, which was founded by Danny Meyer. You may know Meyer from Shake Shack, which is a separate operation. Union Square is known for putting hospitality at the center of New York restaurant culture. - He's one of those people that we all look up to, right? He opened up restaurants in Union Square 40 years ago, 30 years ago, and sitting at the bar of gravity just brings you so much joy. - It doesn't matter what you're eating. It doesn't matter, just walking in the door. - Right, right, right. - It exudes warmth and like it just says, please come in and celebrate whatever you want to celebrate with us, or just have a drink and hang out, and just like everything about the details in that restaurant. That restaurant has more of an impact on me than the Union Square Cafe did. But I went to Union Square Cafe as a young cook and appreciating the seasonality of it in the market. - You just go in and sit at the bar and eat by yourself. - Yeah, I love eating by myself. - This was at the Old Union Square Cafe. - The Old One, yeah. - I heard that you were actually offered the job to take over Union Square Cafe. - I was, I was, I wouldn't say I had the job offer, I was spoke with them about the job. - The people who told me this sounded as though they wanted you for the job, and they were a little surprised that you didn't take the job. - I think everyone was surprised that I didn't take the job and I was surprised too. - So why didn't you? - Long story, short story. - Long story. - I sat in that dining room and I, 'cause I'd like to eat dinner at places before I took a job. Obviously this is more of that like, you know, thing where I have to like feel the walls and be a part of it and like, what is it telling me? I might sound so crazy, but like I sat there and the white tablecloth and the food was delicious and I was like, I'm never gonna be me here. - It's too formal ish for you? - Not even necessarily formal, but like, there was like such a history to it that I felt like I couldn't rewrite that history with my own voice. - Literally like in the menu, you wouldn't have been able, like there were things on the menu that people know Union Square 4 and they need to be there. Is it that some of them you weren't crazy about making? - No, I don't mind doing that. I just, I think I was in a phase in my career that I wanted to be able to figure out who I really was and allow myself to unfold that and as opposed to like, putting myself into a parameters in a box that I didn't create. - So you needed to run your own show? - Yes. - So where were you working when you were offered the Union Square job? - I was running VIX on Great Jones Street. - Okay, and you were having a lot of success there. People loved you. - Yeah, I opened it. I got to create, I got to build that box, right? That I wanted to be in and I felt like going back to a job that I didn't feel like there was a right fit for me at that time. - Got it, okay. Even though it would have been prestigious if you tell people you're-- - Amazing. Yeah, I took a lot to tell, say no. I was like, I was like, oh my God, I can't even be about to say no to Danny Meyer. - What was his response? - I think they understood my feelings. And obviously we kept up a relationship over the years. - I assumed Chisiyama with Danny Meyer wouldn't have happened. Had you not known him like that through Union Square? - I would guess so, I mean, that's, so I heard that they were opening this restaurant and I called them and I knew when I made the phone call that whatever it was gonna be, I was gonna have to say yes. - Oh, because you can't say no to them twice. - Exactly. - So they had said it's a falafel shop. - Love it, love falafel. Here I am, I'm gonna make a falafel shop. - I'm gonna make a falafel shop, actually, you know? - Yeah, I was like, whatever you want me to cook. 'Cause once I made that because I remember the conversation I called Richard Kramer, Danny's like number one. And he's like, are you sure? Like basically he was just like-- - All right, we're not doing this again. - Wait, wait, wait. Chisiyama represents something, which is Italy, but a different way of presenting Italy. - Chisiyama is honoring Italian food, but also my New York background. So like the rainbow cookies, that's the prime example of something that is Italian, but also my going to Napstree bakery and getting those cookies and realizing that I thought they were amazing, but they actually were not. And they probably were in the counter for like years. - They probably had some amazing oil from some country you've never heard of. - Oh, yeah, and like some food coloring that was like, I'm so bad. And we'd explain why your hair is so curly. - It's so curly. - It's so curly. (laughing) - Okay, sorry, rainbow cookies, Chisiyama, but also presenting Italy as a place with many, many, many different regions and ideas and so on. - And we highlight all regions. And I don't, I guess sometimes I really still don't understand that people think Italian, American food is Italian. And I think what we're trying to do is kind of like change that little bit of that perspective. And I've been trying to do that for 15 years now. - Did you know it would be successful when you started this restaurant? - No, I sat in that dining room. I've been like, no one's coming here. No one is coming. Like, what did I do? I was like freaking out, like for weeks on end. - So why was it successful, do you think? - I think we were being honest with who we were and I wasn't trying too hard. - How would you describe yourself as a boss? Like if you, if we were to interview, how many employees do you have? Must be over a hundred. - Well, seven in the kitchen. - In the kitchen, seven. - You can interview the front of the house too. - Okay, so if we talk to all of them and we made a word cloud, what do you, what adjective do you think would be biggest? - Fair. - Okay. - Little entertain. (laughing) - Okay, fair little entertain. - Super lover. - Super lover throughout. - And how hard do you have to work to be fair? Or is it come naturally to you? - I think it comes more naturally now than it did. - What do you mean by that? - I think, I did grow up in that environment where it wasn't like, nothing was fair, you know? So sometimes you have to like kind of turn that back off and show that I'd be like, 'cause these people that work at two family work so hard and they love it and they are involved in every aspect of it being fair to them and understanding what their needs are or just as important as my needs. - So how do you execute a kitchen like that every day and be fair and also teach? 'Cause you always talk about yourself as a teacher in the kitchen, people are coming to you with different skill levels and so on. How do you do all that with and have high standards, presumably? How do you do it?
do all that without being a dictator, though? - It's a great question. There's never like, you do this because I told you so. Let me show you why. Let me tell you how. And then let's do it together. - Okay. - And sometimes those steps are pretty fast. They might be all in the same sentence. But it's about like, let me, you know, I've definitely told cooks to close their eyes and to listen and to stop and like to hit reset. And it's about like, you know, you walk by someone doing something wrong. And you just have to tell them to fix it. Like, that's one of those things that like, we can't wait a month to tell someone they're shitty. - Yeah. - Right? Like, you're not doing something 'cause you don't know how, but my job is to teach you. And to stop what I'm doing. And I stop all the time, dead in my tracks. I watch somebody the other day doing something that was so wrong and like almost dangerous. I was like, let's put that down. - It's here your actual tone of voice. - If you can. - I basically almost mocked them a little bit, be like, what are you doing? You know, like, let's stop this. And let me show you how to do it correctly. - Okay, I mean, I would love that. If you were my teacher. - And then the cook said, thank you. - Right. - And that was the difference. He knew I was joking with him to be like, 'cause I could see him struggling. And I was like, and I looked at my sous chef. And I was like, if you see someone struggling, like, why are you gonna allow him to struggle? - What was the answer to that question? - He didn't have an answer, a good enough on. And then I showed him how to do it too. It was probably just 'cause he didn't, he wasn't asking for anything wrong. They were breaking down lobsters. - What's the right way to break down a lobster? - What's the right way? I mean, we have lobsters hiding somewhere. - There's one under your couch. We're just gonna throw him. - Let me get that for you. - I'm gonna fire the person that didn't have lobsters on the floor. - Well, there's a way you get to kill them, cook them. And then it's that cleaning that last stage. And no one wants to do the knuckles. - Right. - But like, to when I teach someone to do something, it's about putting your knife down the least amount of times. - Yeah. - And then everything should be in a round robin formation. - Got it. - Your knife, your container, your this, whatever, ask them if they're right handed or left handed. We start with that conversation. So we break the ice a little bit here. And then we set up a station so that they never, they're always in doing something in a fluid motion. - Got it. - So like head, tear, like that kind of stuff. - Okay, so it strikes me, and I may be wrong, but tell me, it strikes me that you are particularly good at that kind of teaching. Like, it sounds to me like you're good at teaching process and actual step because it's a physical thing you need to do it. I just think of you as someone who basically learned to cook by cooking a lot, a lot, a lot of your things. - Yeah, I think that's great. - Which some people do, but these days, a lot of people go straight from high school or college to culinary school and then come to a restaurant like yours, and I'm just wondering how someone like that is different from someone like you who has learned to solve every problem for yourself essentially. - They have to be hungry. If they just want to culinary school as a bandage, 'cause they're hungry to eat food. You mean hungry to-- To be hungry to like be me, right? Like, I ask a lot of cooks on their interview. Do you want to be a chef or do you want to be a cook? You gotta tell me, and then I can guide you. Do you want to open your restaurant? What do you want to do? - I see. - How many say they want to own a restaurant? - A lot, and I'm like, are you sure? (laughing) I follow that up with a lot. Like, are you sure? And then I ask where? - Okay. - They're like in New York City, I was like, okay. - All right, I wanted the hardest things about opening a restaurant, running a restaurant in New York City. - Opinions. - Reviewers. - You had a couple bad ones, didn't you? Way back when? - Way back when, I did. - Beatrice. - Beatrice, I know. - Yeah, I go on. - Is that, I can't quote it by, but so what was that? - Oh, it's terrible. - Yeah. And, you know, it, I read the review back many years later and he was right. And that was like the crazy part. - Did you read him a note? - No, but I got my revenge. - Oh. (laughing) - And I got to talk to him on the phone. I didn't bring him any game in. - I just gave him a little botulism. What do you mean by revenge? - Oh, like he gave me an amazing review and I got to talk to him and he put us on all these lists and like he, he basically, you know, and I've always wanted to write him a note, you know, and I should, right? Like, yeah, you destroyed me. And then I had to build myself back up. - When you say destroyed, it's my first chef job and he gave me zero stars. - I mean, did you lose the job as your zone? - I left the job eventually. - You left it, but on your own? - I'm on. - So when you say destroyed you, describe what that feels like mentally, and I just want to know like with cooking at the level, in the level you do and the pace you do, I would imagine that it's heavily a mental game as well. Just as sports can be or. And so I wonder with cooking what it's like, how much of it is a mental game, but especially when you talk about being destroyed like that, did it mean that you felt you were no good anymore? - It definitely made me like take a step back and it was embarrassing obviously. And then I like, you know, when we got that review, I had to walk back in the kitchen and look at my team and pump them up for the night and still do that. - What'd you say? - It was, you know, it was hard because they all believed in me. - Yeah. - And I'd let them down essentially, right? They believed in what we were doing. They believed in our food. They believed in that like job and. - But you said when you read it back later that he was right, what were you doing wrong? - I think I was thinking too hard, I was trying too hard. And it was also cooking American food. I don't know how to cook American food. Let's be real, like I just had to accept that. I do not know how to cook American food. And he's right. I didn't, and like that's why. - We've been cooking American food for, I mean. - I had cooked American food, but I don't know how to cook American food. There's no soul. I need a story. - I see. - I need a story. I need a place. I need something that gets me inspired. American food. - Okay, so tell us your Italy story. So from what I've read, from what you've written and what I've heard about you, you just kind of found your soul place in a way when it comes to food. And Italy is that about right? - Yeah. - And you went over there and you just started going to towns and asking for the grandmas to teach you how to cook. - I definitely looked for Nona's, yeah. - You really did that? - Yeah, so this was when you were wearing your career. - There was a couple of different points. And Italy was always my like spot. Where if I was like, I needed to hide from something, I'd go to Italy. If I needed to escape, I'd go to Italy. I was like, I'm gonna go for a week. - You'd go for a week? - Terrible, but I mean, I can get by with words and restaurants and food. - What's so great about Italy? - I'm serious. - No, I'm not gonna answer that. - No, I'm serious about that question. Because you've essentially devoted your life to cooking Italian food. - Essentially, yeah. - But I think there are a lot of people. - Not more. - Not essentially. You've devoted your life to cooking Italian food. - Yeah, so for people who may think of Italian food as a narrower version of through the American prism. - What is so great about Italy and Italian food? Like you love everything about it. - Right, well that's what I want though. I want you to talk to me about-- - I want that espresso in the morning. I want that noise that the espresso makes. And I want the Kornetti that's served on this plate that it's okay to eat if I can pop pastry every morning. (laughing) And I don't gain weight for some reason. I don't know how. I love being on a sit and have pasta and wine at lunch without like someone telling you that's not okay and I also really appreciate that they still believe in using the best products. - Yeah. - Like the guy over there made the mozzarella, the guy over there grew the tomatoes and you made the pizza. Like that to me is why food is so special. - Why did the industrialized food domination not take over Italy the way it did the US? - I mean, don't be fooled, it's definitely has. But there's also still these small pockets of people that still really truly want what that happened. Because it's, you know, they're not looking for money. They don't want to grow. They want to do what they've done their whole lives and just make that special. - Let's just talk about the economics of running a restaurant. It just strikes me as a puzzle that you have to solve exactly right to even have a chance at succeeding. - Agreed. - Yeah. So for people who don't know the industry, what's so hard about it? What are some of the many things you have to kind of figure out financially and else lies? - So if you really dig into the majority of where you're spending money on this food, wine, and labor to purchase all of those things. So we basically control all the spending, right? We have to make sure that we order incorrectly. Spending the right amount of money on food, negotiating is a huge thing. - And you do that yourself? - I do it myself. - Give me a, for instance, what's the latest food negotiation you have? - I needed tuna for Thanksgiving. We're doing this tuna credo that I really enjoyed. And I was really excited about it, but I needed some good tuna for it. - How much tuna were you looking for? - I ate like 40 pounds of tuna. I probably should have had 50. We had a little tight at the end of the day. Thanks to you, I was a little rogue this year. And I basically called every fish prepare we have. I said, "I need 50 pounds of tuna tomorrow. What's your price?" And waited for all of them to get back to me. - Okay. - And then I said, "Okay, can you do this, this, and this?" And I basically went back to the ones I like better than others. - Okay. - One of my favorite things that they texted me, like 11 o'clock at night, why aren't you ordering for me?" And I was like, "Delete." No, thank you. That's not it. You're going emotional. Like, please, I would or two not, like, what is the big deal? So basically then I go back to the guy and say, "I want this. Can you do that for me?" And then, and we do that over the course of the year every day at some point. - Got it. So that's a special order. What about your staple stuff? Like, Chippellini onions, I remember you. - Yeah, we talked about Chippellini. So last year we spent 20, we bought 28,000 pounds of Chippellini. So I went back to every prepare and said, "I bought 28,000 pounds of Chippellini. Do you want my Chippellini business?" And we do that with our bettions crazy. Like, "You want my Chippellini business?" We did it to the Rabbit Farmer too, which I felt a little bit bad about. 6,000 rabbits died so that I could make pasta last year. Like, that's just like, ah. - So you've been building to the Chisiyama moment your whole life. Now you're here. Is it feel, does it feel the way you hoped it would feel? - I still think I'm a cook some days. And I think that's something that's like, you know, yeah, it's crazy that the books are
right there right? How big do you want to be? Because you seem like you might be at the precipice of being a real celebrity chef, which I'm sure to most people from the outside seems awesome, but celebrity is a weird thing, as I'm sure you know. So I'm curious how you think about the size that you would like to be? I don't think about the size. I think about what's next, right? So we're opening another restaurant. We're doing the book, right? If I can touch more people in getting them to cook with their senses and getting them to actually take a minute to pause and reset and like capturing them. So that's what you're after. You're after teaching people to cook with their senses. I'll be honest with you, that fish chowder, I hate to keep bringing it up, I cooked it with all my senses. But you seem appreciative of that you're getting to do the thing you want to do in a way that you want to do it. Yeah, 100%. And that's rare in this world, you know? I mean, I know people who make a lot of money and hate themselves for what they do. I know people who do what they love and can't make it work for them. And you kind of got the golden mean, it seems. I mean, I could use to make more money, but I guess fine. Cheers to you, Hillary. This is a blast, thank you. Hillary's sterling everybody and there's plenty of fish chowder for everybody. So come on. Thank you so much for checking out this audio episode of Better in Person. But remember, this is a video show. And if you want to see it in all its high-deaf glory, go to the Freakonomics YouTube channel. And let us know what you think. Our email is Better in
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[email protected]. And you can see the full credits at the end of every video episode on YouTube. We will be back soon right here with more Freakonomics radio and more Better in Person audio. Until then, take care of yourself. And if you can, someone else too. So how do you squeeze lemon into, let's say, a fish chowder? This way. I thought you do this way, so seeds don't. How do you get seeds? How do you? They have little hats on them back to the hat thing. So we cover each lemon every day. Oh, okay. So that they're like a diaper than a hat. Yeah, like a net, a hair net. Yes, diapers probably not a great restaurant connotation. Thanks again to ChatGPT for sponsoring today's episode of Better in Person. ChatGPT can help teams move from goals to real outcomes, put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Download the new ChatGPT desktop app today.
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