Why come to Wake Forest University School of Medicine?

Welcome to Deakin Dialogues, a Wake Forest University School of Medicine production. Here we will be talking about healthcare, health sciences, med school, and more from a students perspective. All conversations are our own and do not reflect the views of the School of Medicine. So hang on to your stethoscope and get ready to listen. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you guys so much for joining. So excited for this kind of first episode of Deakin Dialogues. I'm Jaylin. Again, I'll be kind of trying to host and facilitate the conversation, but really excited to be in communication with y'all and see where we can go in today's conversation. So I love if everybody can go around and just do a quick little introduction just so people know who you are. Dr. Rosemond, I'm going to get us kicked off. Yeah, I'm Darrell Rosenbaum. I'm a proud member of the class of '97 from the Wake Forest University School of Medicine. I am an associate professor in family and community medicine. So I did my residency in family medicine. Came back to Winston-Salem for my fellowship in primary care sports medicine. And I've been a fellowship director, a residency director, and now I'm the senior associate dean for admissions for the MD program. Lots of titles. Very cool. I'm a T.O.M. Okay, my name is Chama Ingena. I am an M3, so I'm going to be the part of the class of 2026. Currently in my clinical year, but I'm really interested in OBGYN, so I'm very excited for that next rotation for me. Cool. My name is Dylan Razzler. I am an M2 here at the Wake Forest University School of Medicine. I am from Long Island, New York, and I'm interested in dermatology. So kind of be a tough road, but hope I can cut it there. But definitely one of those, those die hard. I'm going for time people. Yeah, cool. I believe in that one. I appreciate that. All right. And yeah, like I said, I'm Jalen. I'm also an M2, and I'm interested in family medicine right now. So kind of opposite spectrum I'm still in, but all specialties are important, guys. Don't forget about that. All right. So, yeah, the theme of today's podcast and kind of what we're wanting to get into is just what about the school made you interested in coming in? What do you like about the school of medicine? Yeah, just kind of all those general things and general thoughts. So the first question and whoever kind of wants to answer first can jump in, and then what just bounce around is what made you decide to come to Wake Forest University School of Medicine. And Dr. Rosenbaum, if you want to add on what has made you stay for as long as you have, you can definitely go into that as well. But yeah, anybody can feel free to start. I mean, I can dig it first. You know, when I got to the school of medicine, I felt so at home and so appreciated when I came. I felt like the people that were here knew me, even though they really only saw me an interview and read my application. I went up to numerous different faculty, administration, and they fully like, they're like, wait, what's your name again? Dylan? I remember you like they knew me right away. And I was like, how do these random people know me from a piece of paper and from like, you know, one or two little interview interactions? So I thought, you know, coming in a second look, that was something that stood out for me. Having gone out a few of the like, except as students stays, that was something that I was like, okay, like they really mean business here. Like they are really serious about what they do. And then, you know, having learned more about the school, the faculty and all the administration here are just so much more receptive than you could ever imagine. And I think that was something that really stuck out to me when I was looking at schools was, do I want to feel like a cog in the wheel? Like I'm just, you know, the random fish in the sea. You know, I'm sure people, not just medicine, but another field might feel that way. But I felt like when I came here, I didn't feel like I was just like a random cog in the wheel that I was just that, you know, lonely fish, bruising the sea. I felt like I was actually someone who like, mattered, who they knew, who they cared about. And that's definitely continued to be the case, hasn't been here for, you know, almost two years now. Cool. I would like to echo that as well. I think that that is something that I really appreciated about our school was the fact that we have such a personal connection with a lot of the faculty and staff. I remember after I got accepted, you know, I had thought about coming to Wake Forest University School of Medicine for a while. It was part of the list of schools that I kind of created during my undergrad. And as I did my gap year, but after I got accepted, I received a call from one of our, one of the Dean of Admissions, Dr. Akanola, who is absolutely wonderful. And I remember receiving that call. She knew so much about me, obviously, because she'd read my application. But she took the time to call me specifically because we have a shared ethnicity of being Nigerians. And I just really appreciate her, you know, taking the time to do that to connect with a fellow Nigerian and be like, Hey, you are going to be supported at the school. And I even remember after starting here when we had our white coat ceremony, she met my mom. They talked about Nigerian politics. It was, I was like, I felt like a little kid standing in the corner like mom. And the conversation would be done. But it was like that was an intentional thing on her part of trying to connect with my mother, make her feel at ease that even though I'm a full grown woman, like, but, you know, she's going to have some kind of connection here. She's invited me and another member of my class who's also Nigerian is like, Hey, if you guys are ever missing Nigerian food and you want to come to, you know, like my house, we haven't had the chance yet. We've been so busy. But the fact that that's always been an open invitation. So I think that's something what Dylan mentioned about, you know, the, the importance that you feel like, you know, in the acceptance process and the admission process is echoed all throughout as well. And that's something I think that's really special about our school. And could you say you mentioned that Wakefork University School of Medicine was on your, like, short list kind of of schools that you were looking at as you were applying? Why so? I wasn't on there. Great question. And honestly, I was trying to, I was thinking about this because I have to recognize that when I was making that list, when I was planning on applying, like a lot of what I was thinking about, I was just trying to create a list of schools, right? Like you are trying to think about schools and you don't really know that much about these schools. And I don't know. None of my friends were applying to medical school. I knew one. I knew no one that was interested in medicine. So a lot of what I was gathering was based off of stuff that was online, based off of my pre-health advisor at my university in Charlotte, Queens University of Charlotte. So I had some pretty limited experience and exposure, but I just kept feeling this draw. And it's really hard to explain when, especially in a podcast where you should be able to explain tangible things about a school that is drawing you. But I just kind of felt this draw to our school. And but some of the things that kind of backed that up was I was really interested in research. I knew that our school has a pretty good, you know, like research name. Whenever we were mentioning things even on clinicals being like, oh, that was actually founded here. And I was like, what? There's so many things that I'm like, okay, we did that. That's cool. There's that. And then I was really interested in global health. And I mean, there's something that was a certificate program here at our school. And there were just other things that just kind of felt like a welcoming space, you know, like even though it feels really minuscule and silly, like the fact that we have houses, just felt like an intentional thing to try to help students build community. And I figured that that intentionality would travel into other aspects of our time. I think that, you know, all those little things that else piecing it together really helped in helping me think that, you know, coming here to a university school of medicine would be a good fit for me. And it was corroborated when I was going through the admission process and meeting people. I remember, I still remember our, like the admission thing that we had. Like with Dr. Rizmbaum. And I don't know if you remember Dr. Rizmbaum, but my, my camera phone fell. Do you remember that? It's okay if you don't remember that so many. I thought it judged you at the time. You did. And I thought I was absolutely mortified. I was like, I was like, I know this isn't the interview part. And this is during COVID, right? So all of our stuff was online. But it was, I was just like, I know this isn't the interview part, but like they're going to reject me. And I was like, how dare she? Like she didn't even have her phone set up properly. My phone fell over as I clicked the unmute button to introduce myself. And I remember being like, trying to be so professional, lifting my phone back up being like, I'm so sorry guys. That was just a quick error. And then continue on. And I just remember Dr. Rizmbaum just being, just making like, I don't even remember what joke he made, but you just made a joke and you're done. Like, I don't know what I was expecting. And I thought I was maybe I was expecting him to like, smite down on me or something. I don't know. He was just so relaxed and chill. He just made a joke about it and we moved on. Yeah. So those are just some of the things about our school that kind of drew me in. Very cool. Thanks. I don't know. I don't know. My personal experience is matter that much since they're from before the turn of the century. I don't know if they're still relevant. But, you know, I came down to North Carolina to interview being from Michigan. And I was like, well, let's do a warmer down there. And I'm ready to try something different from home. I wish my reasons were more sophisticated at the time. But once I arrived, it was the same thing even 30 years ago of just that warm feeling on the interview day. And it continued as a student and how accepted I was. I never felt like I was at the bottom of a pyramid or a hierarchy so many great friends colleagues and each step that I've come back. It's felt the same way. So we try to recreate that in the admissions process whether it's the interview Second look tours things like that. You know, we we hopefully give you a little taste of what it's like to really be here every day And that's not a truth. That's kind of hard to fake that warmth and that comfort level So Dr. Ackonola she's obviously much better at it than I am Better cook better Everything but I think we're a pretty good team in that regard and I think we've tried to represent the university You know the the school and the university and And Chima like you were saying you can put spreadsheets together and I've seen it when I advise students going to residency Reddens going to fellowship and applicants, you know looking at medical school And you can have all the pros and cons but in the end it's gonna come down to a feeling right? It's gonna come down to where you feel at home where you feel comfortable where you feel supported where you can relate to folks and See your future and I hope we do Pretty good job of giving a taste of that. Yeah And you mentioned that like that's something that the the school is intentional about or at least in the admissions team What do you think are some of the things you all do to enforce that or reinforce that ethos basically? Well as you may have heard I guess one thing we're kind of famous or infamous for is just that that first session when we meet you It's that I try Boy, I don't I don't want to sit through a PowerPoint presentation I would imagine applicants don't either so and I want to hear from that's the fun part about this job is getting to talk with folks like you And folks chasing their dreams and so exciting it keeps me young which is hard to do So I want to hear from you all and and and and I kind of put myself on the spot You know our applicants are on the spot when it comes to being interviewed and being judged constantly even when their phone tips over So I try and put myself on the spot and I have to react and and we kind of improvise and I based on their answers to some of my silly questions I then relate it to what at the Wake Forest University School of Medicine and the experience here and I hope that conveys a little bit of energy the creativity that we try to incorporate Throughout your entire curriculum whether it's how we teach a class how we expose you to clinical medicine to Experiences in the community. It's it's it's probably overstating things to say I'm giving a taste of that but that's that's part of the Effort and then getting to meet different faculty different students at each stage because you know That's where you're gonna get the real information as opposed to from a suit like me. That's where you're gonna You want to relate to a student that you can see yourself Following in the footsteps of so we try and create so many opportunities to hear from our students and that goes for everything like at Second look our instructions is our We're not gonna tell them we're not gonna lecture on them everything's gonna be based on Student experience student stories Because we want our applicants to envision what that'll be like. Oh that makes total sense and I mean And I think you all kind of got up the same idea that I definitely felt that during my admissions process and just the idea of Yeah, the school really wanting to make you feel like Dylan was saying like you're important like you matter And I think that's something that was important to me. Yeah, just in picking a school because at the end of the day The reality is like medical schools you're all gonna go and get trained to go and take step one and then take step two and then go take your boards and so on And so forth and so I think a lot of your experience depends on the people there and depends on the environment That's created so yeah kudos to you all for making such an Embracing environment at Wake Forest University School of Medicine first to start at and then I think kind of building within that and You guys kind of already got into it a little bit But if exploring more of just so you have this like grand idea right you put the school on your list Because it seemed to check all these boxes and you felt this feel felt this draw you really liked second look Um, and now you're here if you've been here for two to three years I guess two and a half technically because I'm not currently doing things but What has it been like I guys have lived up to those expectations have things uh been what you were hoping them to be I think absolutely I think that if you were gonna ask me now What reasons I would come to Wake Forest University School of Medicine? I think that my list would Not just be what I had when I first decided to come here, but so much more extensive than that You know having actually went and sat through a class here Went through a block and knowing what it's like to interact with the faculty here I just nothing but amazing things to say about all the faculty teachers that we have especially for our main blocks They are the most receptive people to feedback I've ever seen you can literally give them a piece of feedback about like a particular lecture or a particular thing that you did that week And within like the next few days boom was already integrated into the curriculum we're integrated into the lecture series So I feel like having that direct feedback in the receptiveness to students Was something that now that I've been here for a while is something that's so unique I feel like compared to like Know what my friends might have at other schools Which I feel like it's just something that's so unique here like you don't get everywhere else How your voice can like play such a big part in what your own medical experience is like From an academic standpoint. It's something that's just incredibly unique And I think jolin for you and me moving forward one of the coolest things that I'm excited about is the Charlotte campus Yeah, yeah, which I think that when I first applied to the Wake Forest University School medicine Was kind of like on my radar a little bit But now that you're both going there and we've definitely learned a lot more about it Is something that is going to be a great opportunity for both of us that I'm really excited about Yeah, can you say a little bit more about that just like what the Charlotte campus is Yeah, of course Yeah, so the Wake Forest University School medicine has a shortened preclinical curriculum which is a year and a half Followed by around a two and a half year, you know post clinical or clinical rotation kind of era and Essentially we can do our rotations on the Winston-Salem campus Or we can actually go to Charlotte and do that Carolina's Medical Center So we have you know like Dr. Rosenbaum can definitely give the better tagline but like two campuses one mission To one school to camp That's perfect regardless having you know two Individual clinical sites for us to do Rotations that with Winston being a very different campus structure and a very different demographic Patients that you're seeing compared to Charlotte is just an incredibly unique opportunity for students here Yeah, have your expectations been met at the school. Yes. Have they not been met? Yeah, what does that mean? What does that look like for you? Yeah, I think that that is a really interesting question now being in clinicals because you You'll be surprised You look wow, okay, let me let me backtrack. So during your preclinical experience, right? You know you're Getting all this information you're doing all these different things and The end goal you're you have a very clear vision in mind and that's step one But you don't recognize how all these pieces even though they're getting you to step one are preparing for clinicals Which is the ultimate important goal, but it's really easy to lose sight of that when you're in preclinicals Understandably so because you were focused on step one and that is a really big hurdle that you need to pass against the clinicals But now being in clinicals. I'm like wow A lot of stuff that they were doing for us is actually super helpful and I kind of sort of maybe know what I'm doing sometimes Compared to maybe some other students who might not have some of those experiences So one of the things that I would say that now having been at the school of medicine for a little bit one thing that I would be like Okay, this is something that I really appreciate about our school is the ultrasound curriculum And I know that this is probably a change that's happening across you know medical schools around around the US But it's something that has been placed is clearly important here And it has been you know reciprocated in other aspects So for example, I just had my emergency medicine rotation and There were so many they are using ultrasound all the time all the time and several times If you're like okay, you can go on ultrasound, you know, this patient how come to bore you with ultrasound I might not be coming to work without machines, but I know the orientation even though during anatomy We felt like I know it's doing what this ultrasound like What even am I looking at what is this? Yeah, you know, but but the foundation that we've got is super important because it makes us that much more teachable during Like emergency medicine when ultrasound is a mainstay of their practice So to me, I felt like it made me look pretty good to the residents and the attendings who would be like okay Yeah, I don't have to explain every single component of you know operating on ultrasound machine They understand how to like where body surfaces are and how far and generally which probes to you Like that can end up being a really big deal So that's one of the things that I've just gotten more of an appreciation of now And there's other things as well. It's just like some of the aspects of being prepared for clinicals that I during the time I was like What does this even matter? But now I'm like ah yes It doesn't matter and I am better now during clinical rotations for it. Yeah, yeah, I just I sort of thought that The faculty here it's so great how so many of them really understand our preclinical years and that we have to prepare For a step exam, but also give us like the most practical advice as well So like they make it really clear to linearization between, all right, here's what you need to know for X, Y, and Z block. Here's what's going to be on your board exam. Here's what you're going to see more often in clinical practice. Maybe on the board, this is more emphasized, you might not see as much in clinical practice or vice versa, which I think is great. And I think also that some of the faculty here are actually like writers for step. Like I know Dr. Oll who teaches a lot of our bacteriology block out of our microbiology. I think he was a step question writer and also I think Dr. Ellis for the Hiemont block, also wrote questions for a step for a while. So I think it's great having people like that at our campus because they really give you that pre-clinical education that you need for step. But also to you, I'm like you were saying like they give you the practical knowledge for like when you're actually there, doing that ultrasound or doing that rotation. Here's what you're probably going to see in real life more so than just taking a test, which I find to be something that's really useful for me kind of delineating between, all right, I really need to study this stuff for step. But here's what I need to like practically understand for when I'm boots on the ground in a few months in your position, which I find to be something that I really appreciate here. Yeah, it's so interesting like the duality of it where there's just two existing things that both have to happen and kind of having to think about that. I guess for you all like on the faculty side of things, is that what role does that play in just like in the way you look to implement the curriculum or look to kind of, yeah, just have us go through the school knowing that there are those somewhat like competing interests. Yeah, I think what things have come a long way since I was a student and you could say that about a lot of things. So yeah, medical education across the board has figured out what we need to emphasize why you got into this in the first place in addition to the facts. If you can connect those two things, not only are you going to remember things better, you're going to be more excited to study, you're going to then get obviously be able to put it into practice that much easier. So things like a clinical skills course for 18 months where you're adding the exam skills of the history taking right alongside with the facts that are being kind of thrown at you. And then you can see case-based learning here in the Winston-Salem campus called ICREAT. Again, all right, I've got all these facts, but if you throw a problem at me, how do I incorporate those facts in SIFTHROOM because it's way more important to be able to think like a doctor than to remember all that stuff because I can tell you that in 25 years of practicing, I Google some of that stuff. But I need to think like a physician every 15 minutes. So I think that's what we do a really good job and then things like simulated clinics. It's like, okay, at the end of a block, let's have you go in and see some standardized patients in a safe space. And let's put into practice this stuff that you've been learning in a classroom-based setting. So that's, I know that's how our faculty think when coming to put all this together and what's really neat is when you come to your third-year family medicine rotation to see the level that is so consistent with all the students that come through. It's like, oh, I just love it when I have a patient who's a smoker and I don't say anything. And every time a student's going to come out and not only have identified that, but they're going to say, and I've worked through these steps of helping them assess where they are in the quit process and try to move. It's like clockwork every time and the students are so good at that. If another one mentions depression, they're like, oh, they've gone through CIGI caps and boom, standardized approach. And if you put an ultrasound in the hand, they don't like, oh, you know, I'm going to drop that. They can approach it in a confident manner. So it obviously pays off. And then I hear that from alumni and even folks at other schools and other residency programs that say, whatever you guys are doing at the school of medicine there, keep doing it because they're ready for residency when they get here. And some of our students, you then move on and I hear back from them a few months into their intern year and they say, yeah, I was so nervous, but I'd also realized I was ahead of the game when I looked around at some of the colleagues in the same risk. So it's, it's, it's not perfect, but it's always building and growing. And yeah, that's, that's some of the intent that goes into it. And yeah, kind of building on what you're saying in terms of reaching out to like the residency directors at other schools and talking with them. I know, and then you could probably say a lot, but like, for example, our simulated clinic. So we start with clinical skills during our first year and you start with the basics of like, how to take a history, how to introduce yourself. And then you progress as the year goes on and as you learn actual content in the school in terms of systems and pathology and things, then we start progressing to more like hypothesis driven question asking and things like that. And so now a lot of our second year is composed of it. And like in our simulated clinics, it'll just be the chief complaint is a cough and you go in there and we do, for our simulated clinics, we get like 15 minutes to sit and talk with the person and then we come up and have they come up with a differential of like three diagnoses and submit that and try to figure it out. And so you're like pretend being a doctor basically, but it's a bigger challenge than when you start a clinical skills because when we're starting and you learn how to do the history, they just give you a checklist. Right. If you have to ask everybody has their acronyms like who went where, why, how long, what makes it better, what makes it worse, etc, etc. But then once you get into actually like hypothesis driven questions, it's like, maybe it's not necessarily relevant to ask them like, what are there, what are their hobbies, this more important to know like, what's your sexual history or what's this or what's that? And actually having to think about that. So like Dylan and then she only, if you guys want to talk about what is that, like what is that progression been like for you? Because like I know for me, it's a way different wiring and like you were saying, I think that's an emphasis that faculty gives like thinking like a doctor, like it's one thing to sit and know, especially for all of our step in board exams, everything's multiple choice, right? So you're looking through the question and you have a reference of like, all right, it's either going to be, I learned pulmonology, and I also think it up, but you see the sarcoidosis or hypersensitive, you know what I mean? It's like something like that. No, sarcoidosis. You have these given options versus when you sit down in the clinic and somebody's like, yeah, have a cough and it gets worse when I'm moving and I don't know what else to do. You're like, like what's in your brain starts to work. So yeah, Dylan, as we're like starting that practice of kind of hypothesis driven, then Chioma, as you've been able to do that through the two preclinical years and then now in clinical like practice, has it gotten easier? What does that look like? How do you think the school kind of like supports you in figuring that out? Because yeah, that's like the hard part of being a doctor, just having to have all these things and then come up and say, oh, you got pneumonia from probably from stress and I'm going to give you this antibiotic when they just come in saying, I have a cough and my chest hurts a little bit. So yeah. Yeah, so I feel really comfortable where I'm at with all the hypothesis driven questions and really thinking like a doctor. I think it also was helpful for me in the first year that I already had experience talking to patients. I was a medical assistant in my gap year, so I definitely helped that transition. So I feel like I came in to Wake Forest University School of Medicine very comfortable already talking with patients. But not everyone was at the same level of communication with patients. Some people already worked in research or things like that. But the faculty and your clinical skills groups do such a great job of really preparing you and putting you all in the same group to be able to grow together, to get to the same goal of being able to talk to patients, put also things like a doctor. So I feel like in second year now, having gone through, I would say almost half of CISPath or systems in pathology, being able to integrate the knowledge in class into clinical skills has been something that at least my clinical skills coaches have done a great job of really taking that extra step to not just be like, okay, here's questions you should ask or here's your script. But all right, so I'm like, what did you learn in pulmonary biology last week? Let's do a quick little exercise. Let's try to bring those things in to this standardized patient you're going to come into. And like let's really dig into trying to figure out what's going on with them, not just going through your checklist. So I feel like at least my clinical skills coaches do a really good job. Taking us do the extra mile, you know, or on the extra mile, go the extra step, you know, maybe I have, I'm just thinking this has had a year old question on it. And African American female 40 year old patient having some sort of lung condition, soccer andosis. Yeah, you're thinking soccer andosis right away. So you're thinking, you know, what kind of question should I ask this person if I have them as a standardized patient? As opposed to, let's just go through my, you know, old cards checklist and you know, check all the boxes. So I feel like, or I feel as though the integration of that into clinical skills, something that is really emphasized here. And I think honestly, not only just makes you better at, you know, quote unquote, "doctoring" but also like reinforces your knowledge during the block. Yeah. Like having gone through some CS patients this past week or last week rather that had pulmonary conditions. You know, me and Dr. Wadja for me and Dr. Chris, we were talking through like, all right. So now that you talk to that patient, you know, with SP, what do you think is really going on? Like, what questions did you ask? Did you didn't ask that? You know, it could help drive you towards a diagnosis. And that not just like prepared me for talking with patients, but also was like, oh, I probably should like definitely study that for my exam that I have on Friday because that's probably going to be relevant. Yeah. So I think that the integration across different classes has been something that's created. Yeah. Yeah. I think now as a third year, you know, they do all that great work of laying down a foundation during our pre-clinical year. Especially in clinical skills where we're having those exposures with standardized patients with the simulated encounters with trying to think, you know, with hypothesis-driven questions, something that they really start to stress during our second year. I think all of that is super important and builds a great foundation for when you start [BLANK_AUDIO] clinical year. In truth though, when you start your clinical year, your brain just goes blank. Everything you just learned for the past 18 months leaves your brain. But because they've stressed it so much and it started to feel like a second habit, eventually you no longer feel as dumb as you did at the beginning of clinical year. And what you've learned this entire time starts to come back. So it does create a great foundation for when you start clinicals. And that's continued to be supported. So we still have clinical skills during our third year. It's a little different. Like we'll have clinical coaches and we will not work with standardized patients. We'll pick out an actual patient on the ward that we're at. We'll go through and they'll make sure that we are able to, you know, interview the patients and do physical exam maneuvers based off of that specialty that we're currently on. Make sure that we can still have a patient encounter based off of that specialty that we're on. So that's reinforced in that way. But it's also obviously reinforced on the actual rotation that you're on. Right? You are seeing patients, I remember this on family medicine. I feel a family medicine and we're going to see medicine with the ones where this felt the most acute of like, like, yay. Because it's so broad. You have no idea what's going on with this patient. It could be anything where, you know, I really had to think about hypothesis driven questions. Like, you have, it was insane and family medicine clinic. It's like, you really have 15 minutes. Like, like the simulated encounters are simulated for a reason. They're simulating the real world. You know, in which you have 15 minutes to see this patient. So having that practice and having that reinforced during our clinical rotation of, okay, if this patient's, they say that they're coming in for a visit and their conchefe complaints is cough and then you come in and they're like, actually, I'm not really having a cough that went away. Now I have this pain in my big toe and you're like, okay, now I have to think, I came in here thinking that I need to approach cough. That's no longer a problem with them. Do I still need to evaluate that to see if there's still something going on or do it? Can I just focus on their big toe? But also, they have hypertension and they have diabetes and there's all these other things that you need to do for them. So some of those things that is kind of, you just have to learn as you're doing your rotation, hence why we have rotations. But we still have that foundation that has been built during first and second year, which is really, really helpful when you feel like you're floundering. You're like, okay, I can't remember if what other questions I need to ask right now relating to their big toe pain. But I can still at least go through old cards, the acronym that they give us during clinical skills so that we can make sure to ask certain questions about an HPI. I can still go through that acronym and make sure that I at least hit the things that I should get based off of this presentation that they're having, which is a really helpful thing to be able to fall back on. So I'll have to say, yeah, during clinicals, it's a different beast, but they have prepared us, I think, adequately enough that when we get into clinicals, we do not feel like we are floundering, but also there's still very much room for us to grow in the knowledge that we've learned and to kind of fine tune what we've learned about hypothesis-driven questions. And I've surprised myself. And I think residents sometimes when I've seen a patient with cough and I, in my presentation, I've said they're having a non-bloody cough that is pleuritic. They're like, I am now condensing. Instead of just saying, I'm instead of just saying, yeah, they have this cough and it doesn't have this in this and it does have this. I'm starting to synthesize information, not just presenting information to them, but thinking through the information for myself and what do I think is happening, as opposed to just being like a presenter of information to the residents. So that is such a satisfying feeling when you start to get to that place. I'm like, look at me! Look at me, doctorate! So, yeah. That's the best part of my job is I get to meet you all before even in medical school. That's one of the privileges I have and various levels of experience coming in and you're so much more accomplished than I was back in the day. That's where I can never compete against you all. Thank goodness I got in back then. But you know, to then see progress from that first day, I was in the hospital a few years ago and the first, the brand new class was in there and just learning to introduce themselves to a patient. And I think Dr. Akron always grew up one girl passed out because she was so nervous. And that doesn't happen often, but then to see the progression and then you come with us in a third year rotation and, oh, look how far you've come along and then by the time fourth you're hit, some like, you could take care of me and my family and what a satisfying, I guess it's like being a parent or more like a weird uncle. To see you all grow up is that's why a lot of us are in this job and it's so satisfying to be a small part of that growth. Yeah, no, yeah, I feel that. And I'm looking forward to the day of like getting to be there in that third year status because I don't know if it's for you, but like, there's times now when we're thinking through stuff, you run through your kind of basics, right? And then you're like, all right, they don't have a fever, they don't have a headache. What else do I have to do? You're like, pause for a second. And I remember that happened last week during our clinical skills because we did simulated patients and we had, it was one of my classmates was in the room with the patient, but we were all like thinking through it. And so he was going through asking questions, I was like, yeah, I see where he's going with that. And then he just like, stop for a second. And I was like, I feel that. I don't know what I want to ask right now if I was sitting there either. So yeah, but I think the school does a really good job of trying to help us get to that point because yeah, I can't imagine not doing anything like that and then going to third year and then you're just wondering. Yeah, more so than we are already. And we understand that process in third year, that's when you start working those muscles to focus things down and we give you a little more time and try to adapt unless you're with me, then keep it short. Because I like to be on time. But everyone else will be really understanding that you might need in a little extra time as you grow up in medicine. You know, I appreciate like the intention out of the curriculum. I feel like everything seems like it was designed for a specific reason, preparing us for those clinical years, which like at least from our standpoint, as a second year, it's like, feels so nice that what we're doing now seems like it's really going to have a direct impact on how we're feeling on the wars and whatnot. Right. Yeah, and I definitely feel prepared. Even starting with like, because we start with anatomy and physiology. And I think starting with, although like people have their gripes and like, I think in general, across medical schools and anatomy is falling out of favor some like in some sort of capacity. But for me, like to know, this is what, as close to like normal, right, because we get these donated bodies which, thankful for their donations, but sometimes people had COPD or Mthazema, especially being from North Carolina, where a lot of people smoke and things like that. But like to see, oh, this is what like semi-normal lungs look like. Or this is what semi-normal appears. And then even going through our clinical skills classes, where I mean, they have cards, right, because all of the standardised patients are hopefully healthy. So if they have a, if it's like a neurologic thing where they could act out muscle weakness, they do that, but they can't fake rails in their lungs, you know what I mean. So they'll, but you get the practice of hearing what a normal one looks like. So then know when something's abnormal. And I feel like that's something that's reinforced is that the more you know what normal is when something's abnormal, you may not know exactly what it is, but you're like, that's not normal. And then that's like to what you or saying not the rosemba one, when you can recognize that, then you can go to handy dandy Google and go back and work up your differential and all that stuff. So I just feel like that prepares as well. And yeah, I definitely think that the school is really intentional about putting us in that best position. So I feel like we've talked a lot about kind of that idea of integrative thinking and how that applies. But I'm just wondering, and she'll be kind of mentioned another thing that made you interested was the housing structure. So how we're kind of breaking up, not by specialty or anything, but just in the smaller groups that can build connection and build kind of that interrelationist. But are there other things about the school that you feel like are unique or that have like truly defined your experience so far? Or Dr. Rosemond, if you want to talk about things that have changed over the course of time at the school, like in a unique way or in a way that kind of differentiates it, yeah, just wondering about that and how that's like shaped your experience with the school. And if you're already touched on it, that's fine too, but just different aspects related to how you've been able to engage with the school and things like that. One obviously one of the big changes and we touched on on earlier is the Charlotte campus. So I could build on that a little bit and the opportunities it creates, not just for patient type, not just for a place to live, but opportunities for learning, such as you know, there's we have so much when it comes to experiences and just about anything you can think of in Winston-Salem here at the campus here, but not not quite everything. And now we've got a whole Charlotte campus where for example one of the few things we don't have here's in Winston-Salem, this physical medicine and rehabilitation, but there's a department for that in Charlotte. So now we've we've filled the gap and all students at either campus can take advantage of those resources at either place, especially when it comes to fourth year. So you all are going to head down to Charlotte for third year and you're in one campus for for that clinical what we think of as third year or the immersion phase. But then fourth year there's a lot of flexibility to go back and forth between the two campuses and it doesn't count as an external electives. You're getting to even audition for maybe a second residency program in one city and in the other while saving up and then still being Thank you. at some other places to give yourself a broader exposure as well. And then the curriculum, it probably won't benefit you all in this room as much, but starting next year with the first four-year class to arrive, they're going to teach anatomy a little bit differently than it's going to be taught in what's in the sound using more, not using traditional cadaver lab, but 3D models and computerized learning resources. And so that's going to inform both campuses on how what's the best way to do it, take the best practices from both and bring them together over the years. Same thing with the problem-based learning that's going to happen in Charlotte, the case-based delivery or the curriculum whereas in Winston-Salem it's going to continue to be a little more of that mix of didactics and case-based small group learning. But then we'll learn as over the years as to again taking the best practices and incorporating them and benefiting all of our students, Wake Forest University School of Medicine. So that's obviously the biggest change on their eyes and that's happened over the last four years and is really about to accelerate starting next year. Yeah, so building off that doctor was about, I'm curious. I'm sure people who are listening to this might be pre-med students, might be applying the cycle. So from an admissions standpoint, how is that going to look applying to the Winston-Campus versus the Charlotte campus? Can you speak a little bit more about that? Yeah, I know probably a lot of the audiences just been waiting. When are they going to get to the part where they just tell me how to get to the point? Sorry, here we go. Who's the payoff? Yeah. But yeah, some of the logistics is, as mentioned gently before, we are one school two campus. So the admissions process is going to mirror that. It's one application. It's one evaluation. It's one interview. It's one acceptance, hopefully, or weightless, et cetera. And then when you get accepted to the Wake Forest University School of Medicine, then you're going to tell us, where do you think you're going to thrive? We don't know where you're going to, why you all think you're going to do great in Charlotte. We don't know who's going to thrive in a problem-based learning type or curriculum, but maybe somebody else needs the support that they would have in one city versus another and another person would thrive socially in that setting. So we're going to teach them about both campuses, even more than we just introduced them during the admissions process. And then let our accepted applicants give us their preference. We'll try and honor as many of those as we can. And if you don't get that first preference, that first choice initially, I can't say with 100% certainty, but I think that if you hang with us throughout the cycle, we're going to have a standby list. And there's going to be some flux with who's accepted and who holds the spot at either campus. I really think, especially those accepted after the interview season, that they will, if you really want to be in one place, you don't get that first choice initially. If you hang in there, I think the standby list is going to work out because our end goal is getting as many people at the campus where they think they're going to succeed. So I guess I can answer the original question as well. Thank you for expanding on that. I'm not going to the Charlotte campus, so it's interesting to hear what's going to be going on there. So originally, why one of the things that interested me about the School of Medicine was the houses as trivial as it seems. And it's doing pre-clinical on something that I found really fun as you guys can probably are experiencing now as second years is the little house compositions that we had in each of the flocks. My absolute favorite I was looking forward to was the menstrual cup with the endocrine and reproductive flock. Hence why I'm interested in OBGYN. Surprise too, no one. But we had during each of our blocks, during each of our systems pathology blocks, we had like a little competition. And I think that this is a really great way to foster some fun, some healthy competition, especially in our school that is pass-fail. And I'm so thankful that we are pass-fail. I think that alleviates a lot of unnecessary added stressors by helping us focus on truly understanding and processing the information and not feeling like we have to meet this mark of having learned enough for being a good enough medical student. I know that's something as pre-meds carries on into medical school and we'll carry on for the rest of our life because that is the burden that we all hold ourselves accountable to. But having that pass-fail really alleviates some of that burden, but also having this competition that we did added some healthy competition. I was part of Red House, I am still part of Red House. And during my class, especially second year, Red House and Blue House were beefing. Neck and neck for a lot of things. Blue House unfortunately won quite more things than I'm comfortable with, but it's okay. We definitely trash talk a little bit, but it's fine. But it gave us an opportunity, I'm remembering, for example, during our biology block was one of the first places where we had like, okay, we are starting to do more of this house's competition. And this is the Capsid Cup, which is the dopest looking cup. And it's like, think of a bacteria phase or a virus and it's just like a capsule of the virus and it's just like strobe lights. And Dr. Peter is so proud of Peter. So Dr. Peter's walls in this Capsid Cup, strobe lights playing, turns down the music, turns down the lights, music is playing. It's like, are we going to club? Or are we in a lecture hall? So he makes it a whole production to make it fun and engaging because we're learning so much. And if you can, you know, imbued, imbibed. What is imbued? Imbued. Okay, thank you. And just a little bit, just like healthy competition. It just makes it such a fun time. And we do it for all the other clubs. We have the Blood Cup, which is also hard. That's a hard name for a cup. That's a cup obviously being my favorite. And then some little silly ones, like the Peacup, which is when you guys get to renal, you're not there. Yeah, now we have this spit cup. It's called Sputum. Sputum cup. I forgot that's what the pool one is. Yeah. Like these are silly things, but it makes medical school more fun. Like you spend so much time studying, you spend so much time working hard. But when you get to play some like games, when you're reviewing, it's not like you're not learning. Like you're still reviewing information. You're still trying to prepare for your test and ultimately for a step. But when you can make it just a little bit more fun, I think that that really speaks a lot about how the School of Medicine is, right? Because we've talked a lot about that inviting culture and just the attitude of making sure that people feel accepted and known here. And this is just an extension of that of having those little competitions. And if you want to get into it, you can get into it. You can go all the way into it. And you can be beefing with other ounces in perpetuity. [laughter] Still the game's over. So yeah. Yeah. I think that's one of those. Dylan and you have the unique aspects about the school that you think are worthwhile to share or just have stuck out to you during your time. I think honestly the sheer amount of clubs and organizations that we have on campus is something that's really great. And how easy it is to start something if it isn't already here is something that I find to be really rewarding. I know that there's clubs that are more professional in this club that are totally just chill out. Cool. It's like, is it chess club? I think in our class job might have just started a ping pong club. You have ping pong table in the houses here. So there's so many different things you can get involved in for volunteer opportunities to different organizations that are both professional or just like fun. I think there's, I think I remember when I came from my second look. I remember you were speaking on the panel and I feel like you might have talked about gardening or flowering. I feel like it's so cool. We have to go all our gardens. Yeah. And I talk about that. Sure. I remember that on the panel, but now I think we have like a gardening club where people that exchange plans kind of like you to change books telling a book club. That is me. Yeah. That's what I'm trying to do. That's what I was remembering. So there's just so many different things you can get involved in here, which is just so nice. I mean, and I feel like I really taking advantage of getting involved in everything you possibly can get involved in, which is stretching me a little bit thin right now, but I'm managing. And there's just so much to do and get involved in, which is just awesome. Yeah. Yeah. No, I definitely agree. And I think that just building on kind of what you're saying in terms of how easy it is to start organizations, I think is also like what you were saying to like, administer it. And Dr. Rosemary, you're kind of getting at this like administration is always amenable to feedback and to growth and development. Like I remember last year, I worked with Max, so a classmate of ours in the second year class. We were both had experience and undergrad with incarcerated populations and like working with them. And so we reached out to, we have a class called medicine and patients in society, which is basically like medical ethics, social determinants of health classes, where we talk about those different things. And so we reached out to the course director's mentioning, hey, like this is an experience that we had and undergrad, where we think it would be valuable to hear from this patient population, because this is something that may be ignored or may not necessarily do. come up in your regular mind of thought but it affects a lot of people unfortunately especially given the kind of mass and carceral state that is present here in America and so we just brought it up to them as something of like oh maybe we can send out a resource on it or something and they're like oh we know this organization here in Winston-Salem called Project Reentry that works specifically with helping reintegrate people after incarceration that we're gonna reach out to them and see if they'll come speak and it ended up working out together where we end up having a map session on it last year in like February or March but yeah they just like added it to the curriculum where like this is something that we agree is important and we want to implement it and I think that like that's a small example but something that I think is true and prevalent across the school of this just like very responsive very much oh if a student brings a need or a student sees an area that's lacking as long as there's valid reasoning for it and as long as like there's a way forward like I think the school is very supportive of working to trust that in some way so yeah obviously that's been a very wholesome experience a very kind of encouraging experience and it helps you to know I think you get to medical school and at times especially like just depending on where you're at and I think sometimes it's a understandable feeling but you just feel like this is like the way it is you know what I mean like you go here the school is the way it's set up I'm gonna have to take these tests I'm gonna have to take these classes and then like I move on but at at the school at Wake Forest University School of Medicine I just think that it is the way it is and there is there like certain structures in place but that doesn't mean that it has to stay that way and there's always room for like growth and development and so I just think that's something that the school really does a great job of promoting and emphasizing and even like we have the town hall is once a I don't say once a month or once every like two months or so where Dr. Straub comes on and provides an open form to receive feedback and then you know mentioned it earlier but we get those emails every Friday and they always have the at the top it's like you asked and it inserts like a certain thing and yeah we listen you ask we listen and so they like responsive but a lot of those seem like joking and trivial it's also like they did ask like you you're you're a chairman your class asked for access to you world earlier now we have access to you wrote for an extra six months so there's just like that I think that exact like you're like direct example of just response it's something that the school probably really prides itself on and that I think we feel very tangibly as students in a practical way you know I mean I'm just like oh they're working on it or this like ambient kind of mystical thing so yeah yeah I would echo a lot of that because even one that bring up the incarcerated population that is so awesome that that's not integrated into into maps I've seen a patient in the emergency room who came in in handcuffs she's currently at a prison and I was not prepared yeah for a hand handling that encounter you know we've talked about you know different populations and how to approach those but incarcerated populations not something they know we really talked about so I was I was like okay I got to try to figure out how to approach this and I really leaned on the residents but but other things that you know other classes like an R class in preparation for emergency medicine I apologize I'm mentioning that so much it's because that's the rotation I just did so it is at the forefront of my mind but in preparation for that rotation we had a trauma simulation to prepare us for what happens in the trauma bay when you're in the emergency room and a trauma comes in and that can feel experience can feel really really overwhelming because you have no idea what's going on it's like it's crazy the med students is often in the way but you don't know what role that you can you know play in that situation and how you can help and those trauma simulations have really helped us as students to figure out what role we can play what role everyone else is doing so you can figure out okay they're doing all these other things what can I do to support them and we've also did that before we started rotations we had a simulation on like doing advanced cardiac life support and also just like general CPR and what that process is because when you actually have to perform CPR on a patient is terrifying and I have not had the opportunity to do that yet but I know a lot of my classmates had and that process has been difficult but the fact that we've had training on what to do on to immediately go into action and to know that as a medical student the thing that I can do the most to help is immediately start CPR and to be there to release someone else to do CPR really alleviate some of the stress and already incredibly stressful situation so those are things that are more implemented because classes above us were like hey we don't feel like we're being prepared to tackle these situations we think that it would be beneficial to have this as part of our curriculum and then they've implemented that for our class they've been like hey we are doing this because the class above you said that you should have this and we're like thank you because this is going to be really helpful and we'll alleviate a lot and it's the same can be said for your class and we'll continue to happen for the classes that will come after us as we give more feedback to the administration and be like hey this is something that we think that we need or this is something that I think that we could do without you know it's like if it's feasible they will implement that and then the next class will get the benefit from it so I think that's a really healthy you know thought thought process to go through a really healthy way to approach medical school and I'm glad that our school does that we have one little like game that we're gonna end with thanks to Dylan for this little fun game but yeah any other kind of last words on just unique aspects of the school or things that are yet have been important to your experience that you feel like would be really beneficial for somebody who has no idea about the school or is interested in it in some way or even just medical school in general yeah any last words or thoughts before we get into our little fun game I could throw out there getting back to how do I get into med school as I know some of y'all are interested in that and I would just encourage you whether it's this is how we view things here at the school of medicine but it probably applies to others as well as it can be daunting and overwhelming and you feel like you get to check so many different boxes and please so many people in the end do what you're passionate about do what means something to you do what you're excited about throw yourself into it grow learn from it challenge yourself and then tell us about it you don't have to do 14 different things although it helps if you've you know competed in the past Olympics or maybe cured at least the subtropical disease first but really just throw yourself into something grow from it because that's what medicine medical school is you're gonna throw yourself into something become passionate about it and we want to see we want to see a little bit of a track record of that not doing something because someone told you to do it because you're passionate about it because it's going to be sustainable because when you get to Winston-Salem or when you get to Charlotte you're gonna be so passionate about it that maybe you make our city our area better because you got involved and made a difference in it so that being said it never hurts to have some hands on medical so Dylan mentioned you know having some of that coming in that's kind of can be a tiebreaker for a lot of schools including our own is it is nice speaking of sustainable and knowing what you're getting into just that you know that it's not all glamor that sometimes it's dirty and smelly and uncomfortable and so that's always a good thing to maybe as much for you as it is to prove you know prove to yourself as it is to prove to us so just be some of my advice both for our own admissions process but I think it applies to many others as well I also like to add not that I can really add much to that beautiful wrap-up of you know the thought process of getting into medical school but if you do get accepted into more than one school and you have that privilege remember that this is going to be your medical experience right these schools you know saw something in you and they want you want to have you at their school now your decision is whether you think that you will thrive at that school and now medical schools have a lot of similarities there's a lot of things that they're like yeah the school has a same thing that the school has like what are really at what really are the differences but you know encourage you that I would encourage students to really think about you know which schools that they will feel most comfortable in which school that they will really thrive in and don't ignore which school that you feel called to as well I think that that's really really important and consider especially as primeds where we feel like we're just pulled in different directions and we feel like we have no control remember you are the prize and if you get accepted somewhere they also think you're a prize so you know think about that you know leverage that and and hopefully they will hope that you'll come to a Wake Forest University School of Medicine but wherever that is you're the prize wherever you're going and it's going to be the part of the journey to you becoming a physician and that is a beautiful journey. There's just a last bit of advice I can give hard to follow for those out but I would say just speaking from personal experience my best bit of advice would be just breathe I had a long cycle I was Wake Forest University School of Medicine's last interview day of the cycle. I had a really long cycle I had two interviews early on and then I had nothing all the way until March and I thought I wasn't even gonna get into medical school I ended up getting a few interviews right at the end but I think just breathe. The medical school application cycle is one of the toughest things I think you can really go through as a person if you're going to like apply to anything in general, whether that be grad school or business or whatever may be, grad school is really hard to get into. So I think that, you know, just being patient, taking a breath and grounding yourself is the best thing because I feel like I definitely got really upset when it was December and I'm like, "Damn, I haven't gotten to a med school yet. Don't have any interviews right now." But being patient, taking a breath and all on and stuff working out how it should suits my best piece of advice. Nice. Quite wise words of wisdom from the career. Alright, so this last game, it should be fun. I'll give everybody the choice. Dylan came up with it, so it's a random generator. So you can either choose a word or a job and then I'm gonna have a random generator that will tell me something to give you and then you can either tie it to medicine at large to the school specifically if you want and it doesn't have to be, you don't have to give me a whole novel. But you can just say like, "Oh, like let's say for example," I said, "Firefire." Like, "Oh, medicine is kind of like putting out fires and you just like have to worry about adjusting the biggest one before like the house burns down and hopefully if you hit all the little ones then the house will be saved in the personal life." I got to go crazy. That was a wild example. I'm identical. I wanted to bring this in because I remember my interview day, for interview session, you asked us all, "If you weren't in medicine, well, a job would be most want to do." And whatever we said, you would tie that into how that relates to the Wakefars University School Medicine. And that for me was one of the reasons that I came here was that day. The way that you went about everything was so unique. So I thought it'd be a little good paying almsch of that to bring that back and kind of have you do that. That's kind of, though, being in the theme of firefight, I'm sure I'll crash and burn it. Alright, don't insist it was your idea. You want to go first? Yeah, I think I have like a little list or something right? You've got to do jobs. Jobs? Jobs? Jobs? Jobs. Alright, we'll say NASCAR driver. What do you have? Oh, I got to go for NASCAR driver. You know, I'm going to bring it back to, you know, some outside of school involvements, out in Charlotte, there's Charlotte Speedway, which is a huge NASCAR stadium, which is really cool. So if you're totally interracing and driving cars right near the Charlotte campus, like 25 minutes away, is a huge NASCAR stadium. And I also found it recently that you can actually rent cars and drive them on the track. So that could be a cool thing. You're between rotations. You have a week off? That's a great work, don't you? You got to, how much time do you think we have? You got to week off, you know, maybe I want to go down to Charlotte and go drive some cars and, you know, have fun on a NASCAR track. That's the best I got for that one. That is so fun. Alright, you know what I mean? Or, I mean word or profession. Let's do profession. Profession? Alright. What about a food critic/shuff? A food critic or a chef? Let's do like Gordon Ramsay, he's both. Yeah, let's focus more on the chef aspect. Sometimes when you're in the kitchen, you know, you have a menu of things that you got to prepare. You think that you have all the ingredients and you go to prepare something and you don't have a key ingredient that you need. And sometimes that's matter. You don't have a key ingredient that you need and you've just got to improvise. You just got to improvise and try to do the best and not serve an absolutely terrible dish to your patients. And/or customers. So yeah, I would say that that's the best that I could do. I think that was terrible. I like that. You got to make new of what you got. Sometimes you really do. It's not just medicine, it's medical school, it's studying for step, it's rotation. Sometimes you just got to make do with the ingredients that you have in your kitchen and sometimes it's not all the ingredients and you still got to make it there. The standard as test is the recipe and then the real patient is more like, "Well, I don't know about it." Exactly. See, this is why he's the OG of this. He just made that so much better. Alright, there was mom word or profession. Let's go words. Mix it up a little bit. Mix it up. Get a little spicy. Alright. First one I came up with student. I'm not going to give you an S-2. I'll lay up. Guess what the next one is. Fire fire. Pan is related to food. Okay. Soil. Soil. Boy, I could get into something really cheesy about how-- I wouldn't have understood to the levels of saying how the curriculum in this school is like fertile ground, plant young little seedlings. That fell into the lap. That's awesome. But I'm actually going to come back to something more practical. I'm going to build off the plant trading, but Goal or Gardens is something to mention and it's just another example of how clubs mean community, mean connecting, learn, taking care of patients, learning about our patients. It's just something simple, like helping a community garden, our students relieve stress. They build on things that make them human outside of this crazy medical school situation. They meet other people besides med students in the community. They learn, oh, they give back to the community by providing food to those in need. I just think what a neat example. And so they're getting their hands in the dirt literally benefiting themselves, benefiting the community. I don't know. I just think that's what I think of when I hear Soil. Yeah. Perfect. Alright. Well, I think that is all the questions we have. I really appreciate you guys coming on, sharing your perspectives and opinions. Hopefully people enjoyed the lesson. Yeah, with that out of the it for this episode. And again, just thank you all for your time. I appreciate it. Thank you, Janet. Absolutely. Thank you. Alright. That's a wrap. That's a wrap. It's out of the way. If you liked what you heard in today's conversation, please feel free to check out our other episodes available wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast was edited by the Center for Experiential and Applied Learning. If you want more content from the School of Medicine, follow us on Instagram at Wake Forest Met. Thanks for tuning in to Deakin Dialogues and we'll talk more soon. See ya!