Why can't we be friends?

(upbeat music) - Welcome to Bar Review, a space where we talk honestly about life and the legal profession. I'm Carrie, and I'm Anika. Welcome to the conversation. Just a quick note before we get started. We are not your lawyers, and this is not legal advice. - And to the extent either of us are employed by the time this airs, this is where we share our personal opinions and not the opinions of anyone else, especially those kind enough to employ us. - And one more time for the people in the back? - We are not your lawyers. This is not legal advice. - Thank you for listening. - We are in business. - Hi, Anika. - Hello. - Okay. - Anika, what generation label would you say the world has put on you and your age group? - Okay. There's not a clear answer to this. - Yeah, but what would you say it is? - Zillennial. - You're a Zillennial. - Yeah, okay. What is a Zillennial? - It's the gap between Gen Z and millennials. It's like 96 to 2000 or something like that. It's the end of the 90s because we can still remember some of the core 90s memories of a millennial kid but grew up with smartphones in the internet from a very young age. I remember 9/11 and I've heard that being the cutoff. - Okay, I think this is cool. So you're a Zillennial, what's an actual age group? I know you're saying 96 to 2000 but I feel like that's a little too mathematically. What is the span of ages that could possibly fit within a Zillennial? - I think it's like 27, 28 to 30 today. - All right, what is the label under your age group younger than your age group? That's coming in now as baby layers. What label would society? - Gen Z, right? Okay, how would you describe Gen Z? (laughing) - I'm so excited for this episode. - I don't know how to do this in a nice way. - You don't have to. - A clear is kind. We're gonna get to so clear tonight. You have no idea how much fun you're about to find to have. I need to get clear. I have questions. You just buckle up, buttercup. How would you describe Gen Z? - Okay, there's a lot of things I admire about Gen Z. - No, I don't want to see that. - There's a lot of things I don't like to do. - No, no, no, no, no. - They go in and they just get to the age. - What's the age? What's the age? Who are they? What's happening in the legal profession? As they are coming to join the ranks. - I feel like the way I would describe it is girl, have you ever had a job before? (laughs) - That's the mind. - Obviously you need to know. I'm very excited for all of this. Okay, my age group, which I'm gonna say is between eight years older than you, maybe to 12 years older than you. - Yeah, I think that's good. - So you use millennials. - Do you use millennials plus or minus a decade? - Yeah, what's squarely into millennials, basically. You are solidly within the millennial. - Well, and then I would argue that there is an elder millennial. - Yeah, I don't know that you're an elder. I think elder millennials are people that just don't want to be a part of Gen X. So they try to claim elder millennials. - I want to be clear that Gen X is the fucking coolest and everybody should, okay, what's that face? Why is Gen X not cool and who is Gen X? But we still have to define millennials. How would you, if you're being brutally honest, don't worry, I won't cry that hard. How would you describe fucking millennials? - Onika, go. - I feel like millennials took therapy a little too hard. (laughs) - Bye. I'm about to introduce you all to my friend Onika. You haven't met her yet, but boy, you've been a meter tonight. - Okay, and what is Gen X? I also just want to be clear that usually we give the caveat that this is the thoughts and opinions of us and not our employers. And tonight, I want to be clear that the caveat is, this is Onika's opinions and thoughts. And I am so excited to just introduce the rest of you to them. I offer nothing here. Go ahead, what is a Gen X? - A Gen X? Thought about therapy, but never actually what? - They are Gen X and millennials at two ends of a spectrum, and neither of them are correct. (laughs) - What do Gen X's get wrong? - They've just shoved it all down in a really unproductive way, but still blame their parents for their problems. - They're aware they have problems. - Yes. - And they're aware that their parents have problems. - Yes. - Which contributed to their problems. - Yes. - And then they've done nothing about it. Once they've made that identification. - Correct. - And how does that show up in the workplace? - I think that just shows up in a lot of festering. I think that they're unhappy about a lot of fundamental things, but haven't done enough therapy, this middle ground that clearly my generation got correct. - Oh, I'm afraid of it. - Clearly. - Again, I just want to be clear, these are the thoughts and opinions of Onika, and you're welcome. I live with these, and these are my favorite things. But there you go. - Jen X. - Just, I don't know. They just haven't gone to enough therapy. They have agency over my own life. And like, - This all happened to them. - Right. - And it continues to happen to them. And it's like, they have played no role in it. - Girl. - They have no role in it. They have no idea how their calendar became such a mess. - No. - They have no idea how they don't have the ability to have control. - They have no idea how they don't have boundaries, because everyone just keeps running over their life. - No, that's actually, I'm pushing back on that. They do have boundaries. Everyone else keeps running over their life. And you're like, yeah, that's right. Or maybe you've never learned how to keep a boundary. - Or you don't have them. Like, and the meanest thing I can say to you is to let you know you don't have them. - Yes, because they think they do. - I have a fun anecdote on this. So there was, when I was in Big Law, I, senior associate, not too far away from making partner at the time. So this is now 11ish years ago. Eight, 10, 11, I don't remember. Exactly, I'm really old. So, anyway, I worked really closely with her. And we definitely did not work well together. And that was very clear from both of our standpoints. If we were to ever have been able to have an honest conversation, which we were culturally not allowed to have, it was just very clear. We are not the same people. This chick is very from the South, very Texas. I am so fucking queen at this point. I haven't put it away yet. And the combo of that never, we're talking, - That's not a winning. - That was never gonna win. We are talking about queens at 2am and Catillion at 2am. It just, there was no bridge. There was nothing more incompatible with Carrie than Catillion at 2am. I was literally not invited to Catillion. And my mom wouldn't have sent me anyway. She was too busy. We'll get into Malaya. - You don't know what's going on. - Spoon to use the table. - I have zero idea to this moment, but people do find it endearing. I know we're having an ADHD rollout tonight. So, to this day and most recently, at a very formal dinner, said to the person I was talking to, which one is your water glass? I don't wanna steal your water. - I'm, what are you doing? - You're doing great. - She's making okay symbols that make us. - Yes, you make. Okay, you now are gonna do it. - Your pointer finger and your thumb, and you put them together to make a circle. You hold the rest of your fingers out straight. One of those makes a lowercase B. - How did you and I ever think? - It is the left hand makes a lowercase B. That's your red plate. The D on your right hand is your right. - That's the dumbest shit I've ever heard. - You wanna know where I learned that? - Cattillians. - Cattillians. - That's what I wanna know. How did we ever figure this fucking out? Like to the level of it clicking. I, anyway, it didn't work with me and her. It just didn't. In a way where it didn't work, but also she loved my work. And I actually loved her standards. So there was a way. You and I figured it out. But with me and her, we were never gonna figure it out. And I really do think it had to have been cultural. 'Cause the hierarchy just never allowed for me to say exact. Like she would say shit to me in the most Cattillian fucking way. And I was like, I don't know what you just said to me. I don't, I'm gonna spend an hour extra of the clients money just trying to figure out what the fuck you just wrote in that email. I don't know what that says. It's just, it's too much. It's too much. Just tell me what you're trying to say. So it didn't work with us to the level too. I went to the emergency room at one point 'cause I had a really serious allergic reaction where I was getting rash hives. And she called me eight million times while I was sitting in that waiting room. And then when I told her where I was, and this was a Sunday, she was annoyed. I had it and let her know sooner. She needed to be in on my fucking hospital, visit, apparently. I had zero privacy or time to myself with her. That's the way we worked. And she didn't work Fridays. So that's how she was awful to work with. 'Cause in theory, she didn't work Fridays, but Homegirl never fucking didn't work Friday. You know what I mean? - Yeah. - So she wasn't happy. All of it was unhappy. She's supposed to have this boundary. - Yeah. - And she can't. She has too much that's being put on her. She's too close to making partner at this major law firm. And whether she likes it or not, she stuck on this case, the case was awful. And she was stuck with me, 'cause she liked my work product. - Yeah. - And I spoke the language of the case. So she loved to have offloaded me. And anyway, her view of me was scathing, but also so complimentary. And never did she say any of that to my face, 'cause she didn't feel comfortable to. 'Cause she was terrified of me, 'cause of how fucking queens I was and how good Tilly when she was. So I just always knew that she was constantly annoyed at me in her very passive aggressive. Ugh, I really wish you had called me and let me know you're in the hospital on a Sunday afternoon when I might randomly have things and I might wanna call you so too, though. (laughs) It was just like, you're toxic. I wanna break up. I wanna break up with you and I can't get rid of you. - So we're talking about what Gen X means. If you're saying, hey, I have a hard stop at five, whatever, it's actually a reasonable time. 435, 530, it is the end of the day, but you're like, hey, I have a hard stop. And they expect you to say why? And if you say, I have a hard stop because I'm a single parent this week and I have daycare pickup. - No, no, you're fucking good. - But just gotta get this out. 'Cause it's like, if you say, well, I don't think you should have to justify. You just say I have a hard stop. But then that generation, I think, always expects a reason. And then if you say, I have a hard stop because I have daycare pickup, 'cause I'm a single parent this week or forever, whatever the circumstance. They're like, okay, that's a justifiable hard stop. If you say, I have a hard stop, 'cause I'm going to a yoga class, that's bullshit to them and you don't work hard enough and you don't take things seriously. And I think that is the difference and also why they're so unhappy because they've never made the space to yoga or dinner or a doctor's appointment are real boundaries I should hold for myself. - Yeah, that's a lot of. - So then they're resentful when other people hold them, hold those boundaries for themselves, right? - And then in person, scarcity. They're operating from scarcity. They have nothing left. They have literally given all of themselves. And I say that with the biggest compliment. There is enough, you have nothing left to give and you refuse to go replenish your cup. - And you try to have no idea why you're thirsty. - Yeah, and I heard it this once in, and this is funny because this is basically my comment about Gen Z. So this is probably a perpetual generational commentary but I was at an event months ago now where the conversation came up about women and work-life balance and I forget the exact context. I think there were recent articles about how women's presence in the workforce is starting to decline as everyone's going back into the office in Balua. And someone made the comment who is a partner at a firm said, "In this gen X." - In that gen X, yeah, she's in that generation. And she was like, "Well, I just really feel the associates and the younger attorneys we have now are afraid to work." Like when a trial comes up or weekend, they're afraid to work. And I really do think it's that quasi-hasing mindset because I came into this profession and I had no weekends and I had no weeknights and I couldn't do all this because I was forced into this working environment. And then you have generations of younger attorneys who are coming in and saying, "I wanna be here but I'm not gonna sacrifice in that way that you did." - Well, and the people that were their people, the community that they really built, those women did at some point have to make a choice. - Yeah, well, in the workforce. - That community's small. The number of women in her position in that that are in a partner and a law firm in that generation are small because yeah, probably, that was actually probably a devastating reality to live over the decade in private practice. They probably came in with a group of half their class was probably women and then they're looking around today and it's them and maybe one other person. Everyone else dropped. You've lost your cousin and in some senses, and I'm not gonna say this is a bien large, but just again, it's culturally in the sort of toxic environments that this setup put women in because it became, we have to compete against each other. - Right, and the reward for persevering through this environment is now you're a partner with a big paycheck. And so I can see how the idea of watching a younger generation. - Not choose that. - Not choose that, but also have paths to achieve the same success you did. Could be really hard to watch because you know all the personal sacrifice. You made that you weren't really happy making in the moment that felt you had to to get where you are. But I really do think that comes back to what we've talked about before. You either put down a ladder or you bring the ladder up and then to put down the ladder mindset is I went through it and that was bullshit and you shouldn't have to go through that. - I do think where the compassion has to come in though is that these women are still wearing their armor. They haven't actually made that realization. There is something really frustrating to be on the outside of it, but there's gotta be something more devastating to be on the inside of it. And just be that alone. - Yeah. - That alone and not be when you get that alone, it's hard to think about throwing a ladder to anybody 'cause you don't remember anybody's there. - Yeah. - Oh. I don't know, that's where maybe a few weeks of therapy would be helpful. - Totally, but they're fine. - They're so fine. - They're fine. You just need to work harder. They're fine. - Correct. - There will be a moment though and it's gonna be a really fucking hard moment and we've gotta make it safe. That's the thing that it, this scene. - I don't know, see, now you're getting-- - Yeah, we'll get there, we'll get there. - You're getting into the millennial that drives me insane. - And that is the transition we needed. Onica on millennials, go, I will keep my fucking mouth shut telling everything wrong with me. - We need to make it safe. - We do need to make it safe, but they're fucking, we do need to make it safe for each other. Go, what's wrong with that? - That sentence. Tell me everything, I don't know, I'm in it. I'm the hurricane in the storm. Me both can see what's wrong with the other one. You tell me what's wrong with me and I'm gonna argue with you about why I'm fine and that's the whole fucking episode. - I think, but don't worry, we're getting you two, baby. - Millennials are just a little too in their feelings. They saw Gen X be repressed and kind of muscle through and I'm fine and they saw that and they were like, they're not fine, so I'm probably not fine. - Okay, they're not fine, but I'm gonna be fine. - But I'm gonna be fine and so. - I'm gonna take all the steps. - And millennials came up, yeah, in this era of therapy, therapy was booming as a concept when millennials were in their late 20s, early 30s, early career professionals. The it shit to do on social media was go to therapy. Right now we got my mom read social media. - No, but it's like the, it was on the blogs. It was on blog spot. You're reading some woman talk about how she rediscovered herself through it, whatever. - This is where there have to be an older millennial. I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I don't know what a blog spot is. - Well, but you do because you're it. You don't know what I'm talking about, but yet you have lived this out. So clearly the information found its way to you. It's like the talking sticks when you're in a circle and it's the, how are we all feeling today and it's the color wheels for emotion so we can all share how we're doing in the safe space and it's okay. I just wanna say that my toddler's feelings corner is adorable and that wheel is awesome and we pick our zones. We sit in our big fluffy chair in our feelings corner and we pick what's over and when we're having a hard time, what I don't see what you're saying. I'm fine, everything's fine. - But then there is something to a bit of resilience, a bit of stoicism, a bit of not having your emotions on your sleeve all the time or ruling your energies. - Okay. - So what you're saying is the world isn't actually safe. Fuck up buttercup. - Basically correct. - Okay, and what, how are we in our way? How are we so hard to work with? - Go ahead, you can do this. Because of that, there's always this need to make everyone feel safe and everyone feel heard and everyone feel respected. I don't know, sometimes you need a little bit of a disrespectful moment or a little bit of blunt honesty or a little bit of, I am your boss, you are working for me. Someone needs to take control of the situation and that's what I think millennials have like therapy to themselves into. Everyone has to be group think, nothing can be centralized. We're best when we work together. If everyone's in charge of it, no one has to be lead, someone has to make decisions. - I, why? Because! - No, but really though, why? - What if we really did just work as a fucking awesome well oil defense team? - And this is where the therapy has gone to, the world doesn't work like that. - But why can't it? because Because we're not in La La land. Because there are all garks and boars and meta and people are mean and evil and people also need direction. Not everyone is interior motivated in the way that you are to just do good and do work and be in shock. People need to be told what to do and give an incentives to do it. Why can't everybody just not be like that? Why can't it just have the capacity? Because we're humans. Okay. That have been constantly at war with each other since the day the sun turned on. We're about to really fucking get into it. I'm going to ask you real questions. What is tangibly working with me? What is the part of it that, you know it? What is the part that you know every single filing night I'm going to do and you wish I wouldn't do it? What's the thing that millennials do? The only thing I'm thinking of that's consistently coming to mind is there was this moment when we were in child together and you were constantly updating us about what you thought jurors thought. And I think that leads into this thing. Trying to be so into the people's emotions or putting so much weight into the way people are acting or how you're perceiving emotions to be displayed is a really important thing to you. So whereas I would see a jury's face and I can interpret how they're feeling but that's fully unreliable. I have no idea who's actually paying attention to who cares about what or who cares about the poker face. Maybe they're laughing because they were thinking about a joke their friends said at drinks last night. Right. You have no idea if they're participating in it. To you, it was critical case changing information that jurors 12 winked when you said that sentence and really didn't matter to pretty much anyone else on the team. It mattered so much to you. Is it a millennial thing or is it a meeting? I think it's both and I think millennialism has just bullied you into a danger zone with it. I think you had a natural perclivity. You are a naturally empathetic emotional heart on your sleeve person and then I think you grew up and came up in an era where that was I don't know if rewarded is the right thing but that faster. Yeah. I think it was okay to stay that way. Yeah. It didn't get beaten out of me. No. Come to our sharing circle. Come to our private liberal arts college in New York City and let's have a discussion about how we all make each other feel safe here. Yeah. Like, yeah, that's totally what I grew up in. Yeah. Okay. And now I am looking for that everywhere. Yeah. And you're surprised when people don't want to be safe. Yes. Yes. Say more. Say everything. I don't need to be safe. This is work. Right, right, right, right, that. But I'm surprised that some people don't want to be safe in a real way. I'm surprised that people want to be violent. Yeah. Well, that is something that I don't have an answer for. I think you just came into this world with this belief system and are never going to be shocked or convinced or diluted out of it that you, and we talked about it. Like, you really think people are good. Yeah. I do. And I think all of history, the weight of human history supports that people are not. I think the world does on a macro level, bend towards justice and humans are good. But on a micro, people can be bad. Well, what does bad mean? They just don't care about anyone but themselves. And they want to be wealthy and they want to be powerful and they will exploit anyone and everyone to get there. Why? Because that's what's important to them. What the fuck though? Right. And this is what I can't. Yeah. Like, this is why this is what the Democrats can't. Well, literally, the Democrats have blue haired themselves into the Republican rise. There's a reason that the youngest generation Gen Alpha that are coming out of high school and early college. So the end of Gen Z and then the next one below it are incredibly more conservative than the baby boomers. I think it really is a reactionary to we had this political movement that you were in the heart of in your generation that was super open and super accepting and everybody comes as they are and everybody does what they want. And everyone has eight different ways to introduce themselves. It went from a place that tried to validate that not everyone fits into a 1950s cookie cutter bubble out to a really far extreme that probably doesn't represent the majority of the actual group, but makes up a majority of the media noise. And so then the reaction to that is people go back to traditional structured principles. A lot of young people are not drawn to conservatism in this religious aspect because of the religion per se they're drawn for the structure and the concept that life has boundaries and principles and duties and things they're supposed to be doing. And I think the free for me, everybody's safe, everybody's welcome, come as you are, be as you are, aspect of the millennial generation is what created that. And so what happens is in the workplace working with that person, there's this immediate sense of insecurity that forces you to have to manage up. You didn't, you came into a space and you were honest. You're having a good conversation, having a good time. And you sounded great. It sounded great. It came across great and you felt great. You were being authentic to who you are. And then the chance of your authenticity going out in the world and someone not liking who your authentic self is caused such a spiral that then you don't even want to put it out there even though when you were in the middle of doing it, it was awesome and it was great. And you loved the way you were portraying yourself. You got so caught up in how someone else was going to perceive you. But then it all falls apart. Yes. So say what that's like in those critical moments when you're really supposed, this is a hierarchical profession, which I'm not sure it should be, but it just still is. But also what I do want this profession to be more of where I think the art lacking is that like the blacksmiths, this is supposed to be an artisan craft. This is supposed to be, I practice, I teach you my skill, you practice, you teach, but that's our pipeline. So what's it like when the person you're supposed to be learning the skill from loses their fucking shit at two o'clock in the morning on the thing you've never done before? I mean, it's just, I think it all stems from a deep fear to say the wrong thing. Yeah. And do the wrong thing. And we could go on for hours about the ways that I think society shaped women to think that and there's so many layers of that. But I really think it comes down to a fear of making a mistake. And what about crippling? What happens if you make a mistake to those women? The world ends. They lose their jobs, they lose their value, they lose everything. And overnight, overnight, it all falls apart. And I think that a lot of them aren't super happy with the balance they've struck. They're in that era, the women in that generation that are managing me right now, at least, your generation, effectively, are in the era we've talked about before. That is really difficult for women in this profession. You are newly into a partnership, newly into a supervisory role, probably have young children, have a spouse, have leadership roles you've taken on, are trying to build a book of business. Like overwhelmed, you don't know how to say no. Don't know how to say no. Everything is just overwhelming and taxing to you. Actually, to the point you just made, saying no could be a mistake. Could be a mistake. Saying no could be a mistake. It could not be a part of this organization could be the thing that ruins your career. Because what if you look back? Fallen out. Yeah. It's fallen out. Versus, I have made so many mistakes. Not a one of them mattered. Did they kind of matter? Yeah, they mattered. But also, almost no mistakes in this profession, even though it feels scary, can't be fixed. Everything's fixable. I have made so many mistakes in this 11 year profession. Not one of them wasn't fixed and totally fine. Did I think in the moment when I made them that this was the end of the world and this was the end of my career and this is where it all goes wrong? Yup. Versus, I've never thought. I've just so much energy I have spent. So much. So much has been wasted versus I will say, I will literally just say to anyone, I'm like, yeah, that was me. All fixed. And I don't panic. When you're managing someone, do you care if they make a mistake or do you care if they own up to the fact that they made a mistake and fix it? The latter. Right. So why would you be in a different position when I- Be in a different position? Yes. Obviously. Obviously. Okay. So, the conclusion, the generation above me is not entitled to a boundary. Correct. Period. That's the choice they've made. That's the martyr hell they've died on. My generation knows about boundaries and knows we should be having them and in theory we have them. But God forbid we make a mistake and we say no to the thing we should have said yes to you. And therefore we've compromised our boundaries because we can't make a mistake. And so, I think the way that I see it be crippling is God forbid I make a mistake that impacts somebody else negatively. Say more. I really think your generation will be. yourself over the clothesline until there's nothing left. You don't care about yourself, but you're terrified to do something that impacts the person next to you negatively in a way that they're then gonna think that you didn't care enough about them to act appropriately. And so then you're bending yourself into a pretzel eight times over to avoid hurting in quotes this person when that isn't helpful. But I am so important that I'd have that much of an impact on somebody. Right. So it's even it's actually even you're saying we don't care, but it's actually super selfish actually. Yeah, it comes back around in a circle. All things are a circle eventually if you do them hard enough. There's a hard benevolent circle coming right back on you. Yeah. Individualistic viewpoint versus someone who's being managed. If you just say to me, sorry, we got to work this weekend. But if you're gonna work this weekend, I'm gonna work this weekend with you. And that changes the whole dynamic and that's fine. And it's fine. Yeah. It's fine. It's so fine. Okay. So wait, I do still want to not show this. The generation above me has made a choice to not have a boundary. And that is how they self-define. So God forbid you don't make the same choice. There you are literally attacking their self-definition if you're saying that you'd like to be where they are in their career, but you'd like to get to that same mountain a different way. Correct. My generation is crippled at the idea that we might hurt your feelings. Correct. Because then you might see us as someone who hurt your feelings. Correct. And God forbid you see us that way. Our entire self-definition is coming from how you see us. And your ability to be this safe opening, welcoming space. Yeah. Because we understand that everybody is approaching the circle in the same way. And that is what we are trying to be. You we all look out for the circle together. Which is obviously the best way of operating. But anyway, now let's talk about your generation. Your generation. I will say for me is the have you guys ever had a job before? Yeah. I think that is a generational cycle that's existed from the time. Yeah. So that I don't think is actually the definition of the generation below you. No. But it is funny that I thought that way about you guys or I was just like holy fucking shit. But also key differences. There is a lot that I take for granted and that they take for granted. Like I don't know what the fuck can't but is. She's looking at me again for the record. What are the words happening in your brain right now? Your face can't show up in the box. What the fuck? How do you not know what that actually why all of your life? Power point. Microsoft power point. That's what I'm saying. And not just Microsoft power point. Dumb. We're from the third grade. We'd have computer class. Well, yeah, me too. How to use power point. Yeah, but how did you make a cute invitation to somebody's party or a banner or I walked to their house ring their doorbell. Ask them if they wanted to come over. No, this is saying call it or even your adult life. If you've ever made a birthday party invitation. One more time. I walked over to my friends house. I knocked on the door. I said, yo, what up? I think I'm going to get a keg on Saturday night. Do you want to do that so provincial? We didn't have phone. The graphics. Instagram. Where are you? What are you saying? I didn't. So, okay, so you're we got to go back to this on my line. Because this is a bridge thing. We're going to figure out this bridge and then we're going to fully just beat you up. Bridge between us. No, I did nothing for social media. You are the reason I have social media. I would easily have never had social media but for this podcast, I think that's just you. I also think a lot of things that you're going to say about my generation are just me. No, I've met some of you now. We are very different. Maybe it's my interpretation of millennials is more from the millennials that I now follow on Instagram who have made their careers as influencers. Name them. I don't love it. I don't know. Give one example. I really can't. Oh, the daily day. She's hilarious. Yeah, you also. But she's not really a good representation. She's a comedian. Yeah. Okay. Oh, AK Prisbee. You don't send me her at all. She is fully my generation. AKP RZY. She's awesome. You would lose your shit if I sent it to you. Okay, see, this is also the different. You know the followers you fought like. Yeah, they're my friends. They're friends. It's fake. Stay more. They're not your friends. They're my friends. They're exploiting you for money. I'm not giving them money. No, but your viewership results in money. What? So really what? People get ads. Okay. So sponsors. You follow an influencer who doesn't add for a Dyson vacuum. You can tell who I follow. Dyson picks them to give them money to do the ad based on the engagement on their profile. But it's not me. But in particular, that is why they engage with people that follow them is to encourage more people to engage with their profile. So the commenting back, the sending messages, the dinner, that's all an engagement metric. No, it's just me speaking for my heart and having something to fucking say. There are some people on the internet. I think I'm in a bubble. I really do believe you think you're in a bubble. I do think I think I'm in a bubble. But I think I'm in a bubble with people that are really talking about. Okay, if you're listening to this, let me know if we're really friends. The saddest thing you've ever seen. No, it's the most millennial thing I've ever seen. The fact that you need your internet friends to validate whether or not they are actually your friends. But that's the millennial way. Right? Isn't that what you're saying? Is it that we would define us? And it's driving you crazy. And why doesn't matter if they're your friends. Exactly. There's someone on the internet. This is the bridge. Who the fuck are you? No. So you guys walked up into our workplace and just literally with your little mean girl eyes that you're giving me right now, you looked just up and down and you were like, no. And we were like, oh, and that's how we started. That is how my generation and your generation started in the workplace. And then the pandemic happened and we weren't friends. We didn't have friends. I think that's real. That's real. So real. So what happened was you guys walked in like, you got your basically you're like, these fucking participants, patient trophies are fucking killing me. And we were like, this bitch is shitting on my participation trophy. And that is fundamental to who we are. I think so. I saw this sign once, you know, like the live left love type graphic science. I don't know where probably not be judge here. If you tried the next thing, I have a new probably in I'm about to offend you so deeply. Yes. I'm so in like home goods or something. And I think about this sometimes when you talk about your. And it says in this, like in this house, our best is good enough. And I'm like, no, in this house, second place is first loser. Like we got to get shit straight. What monster is this place is first loser? Yeah, you didn't win. Better to be third place than second. Okay. So this is the point. So you guys walked in so offensive. The fact that you were able to say in knowing me as well as you do and knowing what we have here. And I can even see it. You can't see it. Y'all at home. But every time on it goes like about to really drop some shit about millennials. She's like, does this? I look at me. It's all this flirty. You can really handle what I'm about. You know, at your core. But y'all walked up and through shit at our core, like it was nothing to you. And then you just went home because you cared about what we said. Yeah. We did. You dicks. We still care about what you say. We think you're cool. And this is the divide. Yes. Your generation thinks you're cool. Our generation thinks you're cool. Why can't we just all be friends? Because we're gonna say things. But can't you just not? No, because that's who we are. I want you to say it though. Can't you just not be so frustrated with us so quickly? No. What? Just try. You've had a decade and too many therapists. This is what I don't get. This is what I see and say. You're all welcome. This is what everyone is. What every person you work with really thinks about you. I just don't understand why it's taking you so long. I understand it's killing you but can't you but it's killing you more. Oh yeah. That's actually what it's okay. Okay. Okay. Actually, know this is this is beautiful. So basically what you're repulsed by should repulse us. Yeah. And you are horrified that we don't recognize how fucking repulsive. Yes. But you are still looking at people that don't know their repulsive repulsed. And that will shock you in the some action. We are not built that way. That is how you guys might be built. You if the more you look at us repulsed, the less we're gonna hang out with you and isolate from you. And then you're never gonna learn the actual skills and you do want them. You don't realize you want them because you're so fucking repulsed by us. And we've got a lot of shit that is repulsive that we're working through slowly. But this is the- No, listen me! We need your help! We need your help to work through it. It only gets better when you say the fucking thing out loud. And you make it safe, which you fucking do. You personally do make it safe. You do. You do. How long do we need to work through it? As long as it fucking takes. But that's unrealistic. To who? We'll get on a program. We're not gonna get on one. We're not gonna get on a program. We've never been on a program. I know because you break up with men for two years. Yes. All of us. All of us. So that you could suffer for two years at your own expense. And I did it once. I did it once. I will own it. I did it. But you do it once. And then you look back and you're like, that was fucking dumb. And then you never do it again. So that's really what's triggering you? Yeah. That you did experience these things. Correct. And they hurt you. And then you look in yourself in the mirror and you're like, I don't want to feel that way again. So I'm gonna change the way I act. Aww. And then you guys just keep looking in the mirror and being like, yeah, this feels right. I should be suffering. Thank you. No, wait, can I give you just one little tweak, maybe? Which I know you're gonna write off into like, oh, she's a millennial. She doesn't know this about herself. But that is our rebellion. It makes no sense to you. It can't because you just didn't grow up in the thing. But we did see the generation above us get really hard. We just talked about that before we got to millennials, right? Yeah. So our rebellion from that is no matter how much you make it a good idea for me to armor up, I'm not doing it. I'm not getting hard like you. So it was so hard that we were like, no, no, no. And this is why my generation is doing it correctly. We wrote off this one. Our generation wrote off the one above us because we were like, mm-hmm. You're too hard. We don't like that. We're repulsed. We keep not being a good friend. You keep selling out your friends. You keep isolating. You keep not choosing Covin. We choose the Covin in the millennial generation. Both do. Do you? We should be. When it works, it works. That's the thing. I do think it's tough to have Covin exist until it's inconvenient. So the reason we'll never learn our lesson, which is what will continuously repulse you and quite frankly, repulse the generation above us. The reason why we will never learn our lesson is because we saw what you describe as the women that embodied the Hillary Clinton type. Yeah. So we saw it and decided that that's what armor had to look like. You were either going to resist turning into that or you were going to have self-respect. There was nothing in between. We didn't have violence or a go. I actually do think that's a huge difference. So this is the transition into millennials. We had Elizabeth Bennett and then we had Katniss. Hunger Games came out after I graduated from college. Every single other character other than this one weird book I read in the sixth grade where she is pretending to be a man. Because that's the way. If you're going to do the thing, you've got to do it the way the men do it. You do it their way or you don't get to play. It's definitely the mindset of what we were given. So it was, okay, if I'm going to play, I have to play their way and I also can't turn into it. So that has translated into finding strength and Covin finding. It makes sense to sell your friend out based on the incentive structure of the thing you're in. But what if you didn't? And the ones who don't, it's forever. The ones who do get isolated and thrown out of the Covin and everybody's repulsed by it. And that's fucked on all sides. I mean, it's fucked on all sides. I get it. I'm repulsed by it when you fuck over the Covin. To me that is, how could you? We're trying to prove our concept out, guys. One also I think literally what you're describing is this need for the group think of reassurance. You find strength in the group. The group of women and you kind of need that group to bolster your own perception of yourself. Your sense of belonging or ability to exist in that space, your place there relies on the existence of these other women that you're calling the Covin to validate for you that there's a space for you here. Correct. Because you can only be what you see and we were figuring it out as we went. We did not see it. We did not know what it looked like. We saw what a version of it looked like and didn't want that for our life. Right. And didn't know another way to carve out. And then wrote books about it that you get to read. Yeah. So who do you have? Who's your literary? What did you get into? When did you get into it? What did you grow up with? So it probably started with Katniss. And how old are you when Katniss comes out? Young. I think we've read Hunger Games as a middle school book. So essentially these books are coming out at the same time that you're reaching the appropriate age anyway. They may be allowed to read them. Yeah. By the time the movie came out, we were all in high school. We all dressed up and went to the premiere. I had memories of standing outside the theater for Hunger Games. But this would be unique to me in some respects of how I read when I was younger. Every book I read was a female main character. I didn't want to read a book about a man. And we didn't even have that option. And they were all these badass assassins, you know. Yeah. But why did you give Violet to me specifically? Because it's an entry way. But me specifically knowing me, feeding Amalennial the lessons she needs to be more, less repulsive to your generation, why did you think I needed that book? Why would you hand that book to Amalennial? Because I think it's a good entry way into the strong female lead. And I think if I threw you off the deep end, you'd be disoriented. And you'd just be like, this is so out of my realm of perception. I can't even suspend my disbelief enough to get into this that a woman would act this way. So I had to bridge you with something that was familiar enough to Katniss, but pushing the boundaries a bit that you were going to be okay. There's a love triangle, toxic boys that the goal is to end up with. Right. And the girl is not that strong of a main character. She feels revolutionary to you, but still is really dependent on the men. The men drive her character development. Yeah. She's not using the men. The men are kind of using her in the story to drive who she becomes. Or at least it's collaborative. It's right. And the part of the development to her is the relationships and is the love story. And there's not a lot of separate from men, violent finding her own power. These are all existing and tantam. My favorite lead female characters, the male love story is a fun accessory. And it does deepen her character in the same way that relationships deepen all of our lives. But she has a very clear sense of self that is wholly independent and developed separately from the men who are there to give her validation. And in fact, are not even validating her because she doesn't need validation from a man. Violet-soringales still needs validation from a man. And so I had to start you there. And we're going to elevate you up. Because millennials need validation from a man, from a man. From a man. And it turns into in the workplace the way that that can look is orbiting. Orbitting. So talk about orbiting. The only way to talk about this is negative because I perceive it as negative, but at the same time, I don't know. Your generation is repulsed by my generation. Yes. The way that my generation is repulsed by the generation before it. And this is why we don't play nicely in the same way. Correct. And I actually don't think less of these women. I fully understand how we got here and why we're doing it. But I just find the whole concept and a lot of it is structural repulsive, which is just this idea that in order to be a woman who made it, who came up in the profession and is successful, you had to latch on to the man that was the rainmaker and follow him around. You weren't allowed to do it yourself. Right. But if he thought you were great, then you were great. If he thought you were good enough to send his work to, then you've made it. And you're in and of his orbit or in his shadow that you become a little bit untouchable, right? No one's going to fire the rainmaker because they bring it on the money. No one's going to fire the rainmaker's left hand because she does all the work. Unless there's a reason for the rainmaker and that's what the left hand is for. If you're being honest. The left hand steps in or the left hand goes with. I do think a lot of those relationships become do or die because. The person that ends up in that orbit is in this position where they're doing all this work that that person's bringing in, but aren't necessarily getting the benefit of developing their own brand and their own expertise and their own client bank. So they're not ever fully independent. They're always in that orbit of that person. And they probably are very well respected and people think highly of them and know that they're good lawyers, but they're just trapped by this brand. So the generation above me is a lot of isolated women that I don't think orbit. No, I don't think they do. But also tend to have the reputation of being difficult. Right, yeah. I mean, they've built 2400 hours a year for 25 years. And do not understand why you are not going to run at their pace. Correct. And are not going to slow down for you. And they probably did absolutely incredible work, but what they sacrificed to get there is just not a path I want to walk. But also they view it as if you're not willing to make those sacrifices. Then you're just not serious about becoming who I am or just becoming worthy of their time, attention, teaching of the craft the way that I'm going to just keep repeating the way the blacksmiths teach the craft. Because frankly, if you aren't someone is willing to work that way, and maybe it's not a woman, at least in my generation, to be a guy. And that for my generation is exactly what happened. We were not fostered necessarily in these relationships. Yeah, there's not a lot of, I actually cannot think of a single example of a woman in your generation that I know in practice whose primary mentor is a woman older than her. Because it just didn't happen. Yeah. And then there's resentment for part of it because we did come in hungry for a cuban. Your criticism of us is we came in hungry for a cuban. So we came in like, we're going to work together and build a pathway that I think you guys actually are achieving. Yeah, I actually think your generation did more for women in the law than the generation above you. We just didn't know what we were doing. And it looked weird. And we couldn't explain it because we didn't, and we just didn't have support above us too. So the way that it ended up translating out is you see a lot of orbiting. Because that's as far as we could perceive ourselves going. So we are in coven with whoever we're orbiting on some level. We are just continuing to seek that validation. We are continuing to end up in these do or die relationships. That is how we found our way to quote unquote have balance. Yeah, harmony as you would rather put it. Yeah, because we probably have developed a working relationship with that person that is really successful. Those people that are orbiting I think really do have great working relationships that have adapted to work well for their life. I mean, all of the women I am thinking of that could arguably fall into that dynamic where their primary mentors are men or just that that's who they came up working with. Have developed successful careers, have families, have navigated their way through this in a way that I think worked really well for them. But I look at and still don't want. I've yet to meet the woman in the law I actually want to be. But there's a reason for that because you are forging your own path now. Because you can you say all the time you can only be what you can see. And that's why I want to go back to these books because we got to orbit. And the difference between the generation above us, even if they have the reputation of not sharing, is that they have a book. And then my generation doesn't have a book. It's an orbit. At the end of the day that book belongs to the center of the universe, you're just orbiting it hoping you get the crumbs. In hoping one day it transfers to you. Because in theory that person is going to retire one day. One day. Yeah. And you've never stopped to think if that's really what you want either. Also you're exhausted. Right. Because you don't have the space to think about it. And also you're so far into it and now have so many things. Daycare bills that are double your mortgage, you know relying on this income that you can't risk it to go off and try to forge this new path. It is a system that is not set up for you. And because. Quite frankly it's the nature of the orbit that is what is it also exhausting. Yeah. You have never been in control of your own time or life or autonomy or the ability to actually say yes or no. So you don't have capacity to think about what you want because you are so tired. Yeah. Okay. And here comes you. Walkin' in. Repulsed by what we built. Where are you going? What is your generation hoping to pave? Where did we leave you and what are you hoping to pick up? And how can we help you get there? My generation, especially me. So I don't know that this is a universal thing to my generation. But just came in with a much stronger sense of self. I really do think that a lot of that in me came from the books I read growing up. That I was reading continuously strong women that did hard things and were successful at it. And were portrayed in ways that felt really have low moments. It's realistic and they have struggles and things don't always work out. But in the arc of these stories, right? They always persevere and it always comes around. There's always a happy ending. That's why I reread some of my favorite fantasy books all the time because I know there's a happy ending and that's a nice escape from the burning hellscape of our lives. But so my favorite fictional character and I will say no spoilers because you still haven't read it is from Throne of Glass, which I started reading. Would you give me for Christmas? Yes, and you need to read. And then the world burned down days after you leave. And literally more because of that. Yeah, I do. And I started reading it in high school and all of the books weren't out. So anyone who's listening to this is read Throne of Glass. Knows that the story gets fundamentally different. The later books that you get, they get so cool. And nearly books are great, but there is this arc that happens with the character that's super impactful. And I got through half of that arc and then the books weren't published. And then I went to college and it just fell off my radar. And then I rediscovered it after law school when I finally got back into reading for fun. And it was a recommended book, honestly from Instagram. I went to buy the whole series and saw that I already owned the first three or four from high school. But anyway, the main character is Salinas Ardocheon. And she is an assassin and obsessed with beautiful gowns and makeup and jewelry. And she has multiple lovers and she doesn't care about what they think about her. She is so her own woman that it is just beautiful to me. And there is a duality in that that I think really did translate into who I am as a professional. She was an assassin and killed men for sport and was renowned around the world for what she was doing. And was obsessed with the most feminine thing she could buy. Femininity was not a detriment, it was a strength. So do you think that your generation is more. Because I do, you guys all know how to do your hair and makeup. I don't know what I am doing. Onika told me about makeup fridges. Every millennial listening to this right now is learning about what a makeup fridges for the first time. Tell them what a makeup fridges. And I used it to put my breast milk in it. Not use it for makeup. It is just a little mini fridge on your counter. It is to hold skin care and not really makeup. For Onika's generation, the thing doesn't have formaldehyde in it. So it won't just live for 20 years in your shoulder. You just shouldn't put formaldehyde on your skin. I don't disagree, but we have never not put formaldehyde. We've never thought about why we can have one bottle of lotion last for 20 years. We squeeze every shmission out of that toothpaste. Yeah, it drives you guys nuts. So, read the run of glass. Yeah, but I think there's this sense of at least the way that's really transformed the way I think about myself and think about my career. And then I think I see in my co-workers too, is that there is no desire to be the Hillary Clinton. And there's also no desire to try to bridge the middle, which I think is what you just described that you came in to do. That's higher to be middle management because we thought the boss would be evil. Literally, we had fired to middle management. And then we got to middle management. We were like, why are we so tired? And it's because middle management sucks. That's your dream. Your dream was to be a middle manager. And that is why your generation's repulsed by us. We've all had that job when we were in high school. And there was just one fucking guy that always took or one chick that always took that job. Way more seriously than everybody else took it. You were that person, I can just tell. But we needed that person to do that. We could only go smoke and blow work off if we knew that person was actually holding it down so that we could be lazy and just come in and out. That is who we are. (laughing) That is what we wanna do. We want one person to keep the fire going while we are smoking outside for a little while. - And this is why group think doesn't work. - Why? Because of what you just described. - But tell me why that can't work. Because the person holding it down is not in your group. - Yeah. - But they self-selected to not be in the group. - But then how are you gonna feel when you're building your Kumbaya circle and someone's not in it? And they're the one doing the work. - Yeah, it's really fucked up. That's why you're repulsed by us. - Yeah, 'cause I've been doing the work. - Yeah, okay. Yeah, man, this is it. So that's what's so fucking frustrating. - Yeah, and I think my generation just came in and was like, no, I wanna be in charge. I wanna be the woman that has the book of business that is super cool and did transformative love. But I also wanna be a mom and a wife and of human being, separate from my career. And I believe I can do both. And I don't think I have to sacrifice either. And I'm just gonna force my way into this. - And how's it going? And how are you doing? And what could we do better to support you as you do it? 'Cause we can only do what we can see. And I think that the same way you learn the craft from us, whether you like it or not, we do have to learn from you that we don't have to be mental managers. - For me, personally, it's the decisiveness. And it's the not being afraid to make a mistake. - We don't need to ask somebody for permission. - Correct. - We don't need to ask somebody if this is good enough. - Correct. - We just need to make fun of you. - Like, you are in the position of deciding if this is good enough. - So decide. - So decide. - Use your skills. You have them. Why don't you know you have them, baby? - Right. How long do you need to look in the mirror before you believe you have the skills? - And also because of the hierarchy, you can't look at somebody who's in a position of quote unquote authority over you and go, (clapping) "Baby, how do you want to move forward?" - Right, you're not allowed. - You never thought you'd make it to the management role that I feel like it just hasn't clicked. You are the one with authority. You don't need someone to tell you you're doing a good job. You decide that for yourself because you are not the one deciding if the people under you are doing a good job. - They can't know unless you decide. - Right, actually. - Yeah. - And they also can't get better unless you tell them what they need to do to get better. - Right. - So either tell them or realize you're doing them and yourself a major disservice and then you actually are not the imposter. - Right. - Right. - Right now that you're so terrified that everyone's gonna think you're the imposter, you are no longer able to do what the job is asking of you to do. - 'Cause sweetheart, you've been here for a decade. I think they would have figured it out. - Right? - Right. - But we've been exhausted. So have a little compassion for us. We've been exhausted. And I think also the compassion that needs to happen for that generation above mine that's not happening is they have isolated. Come with your big kumbaya arms and skills that you have. This is who we need to reach. This person doesn't wanna be so isolated. - They're unhappy isolated. - Yeah, but I think the way that you told the story recently that summarizes this app where the woman followed you back to your office and said, you always make space for yourself at the table. That's the attitude we need. - That woman got penalized. And that's important too. Because that's the example that then gets shown and that's the knocks people in orbit. - Maybe it's the risk that my generation has embraced. And I've talked to people in very different employment environments of my vintage of loyering. And we've all just taken this stance that I will be a good lawyer and I'm gonna give you good work product for the best of my ability. I mean, I'm sure I will make mistakes. But I am also gonna do this in the way that works for me. And you will tell me when that doesn't work for you. And then-- - And our generation-- - I will decide. - Doesn't fucking tell you when it doesn't work for us sometimes. - That's not what I'm getting at. - I know, but I am saying that the combo of that. I know that's not your the point you're making. But what is important for my generation to realize too is if something is not working for you, it's on you to fucking say it. Your generation is waiting to hear it. - Yeah, and but also just there's confidence that is lost of just, this is the way I'm gonna live my life. And I don't care if you tell me that's okay or not. I don't need someone to tell me it's okay because it's my life. - Yeah. - And I think that's the mindset that is different generationally. - Yeah, I do. I agree with that. But the mindset is also from a feedback perspective. If somebody's not telling you how they do something and how they do it well, how are you supposed to hear? If they're just like, oh, you did great. - Yeah. - You're awesome. - I actually did have an instance of this. It wasn't with a woman, but someone asked me to write a motion recently and I wrote it and I didn't have a ton of information as one of those things where I'm just gonna drop it into writing this thing, the other motion, I didn't have to think about the case. But I write this motion. I was kind of like, this doesn't feel like totally right. Send it off. Be like, tell me if I'm off base here and like, I'll rework this. Never hear anything. Day before the filing, I'm like, hey, do you need me to do anything? Do you want me to do a site check? Get the brief back. Holy different brief, right? I clearly did not nail it. - Nail it. - But you were told it was awesome though. - No, I wasn't. It was like, there was no, it was not a good feedback and there was no bad feedback. It was like, it was just like. - Read it and you'll get it. - You'll get the passive aggressive understanding of the situation. - And I don't even, I didn't even take it as passive aggressive. I took it as honestly more when I read the motion. It was just so much more fact intensive that I feel like it was just one of those moments where they were like, the amount of time it will take me to explain to you these things. I'll just write it. That's kind of like the mentality. - Right. - It was fair, but it was just funny to me that it happened, but I have lost no sleep over that entire exchange. I literally thought it was funny and I was like, oh, fuck that one up. - Meanwhile, I still remember some feedback. I got a memo in 2017. - For sure to do. - Yeah. - I can't, I keep thinking about it. - Literally right now, cannot recall a single moment of time, a feedback in my career that I could replay for you. - Oh, I can tell you every single, like, darts to my heart moments. And then I can also tell you, in a better way, I, when I tell you the success stories, you can tell the difference. And when I say success stories, the story I told you about how I didn't do something in a room that someone who was really looking out for me encouraged me to do, I tell you that story differently than the way I tell you about my first annual review. - Yeah. - Those are really different portrayals because I do perceive the good intention part of it, the safety part of it. - Yeah. - I know you're rolling your eyes. - Always roll your eyes at safety. - One else ain't safety, I don't know. - The world's not safe. - I know. - You're gonna be waiting a long time if that's what you need to embrace. - Well, that's the thing. We're not really waiting anymore. I think that we grew up with 9/11 happened and we recognized that that made us unsafe. But then we bought into a lot of fiction about how, oh, just trust, just trust us. We got you. All these white men will get together in a room and we're just gonna keep you all safe. Don't worry about it. But here's your cell phone, here's your this, here's your that. Don't think too much about it. Just, we got it now and we were like, okay. (laughing) Cool, that sounds like nothing could possibly go wrong. - Yeah. - Everything's gonna be fine now. - Okay, great. - This group of men over here that's not letting us in the room. They are gonna solve all the problems we don't have to worry about it. And we were like, all right, cool. We'll just go about our day. (laughing) Your generation was like, what the fuck, guys? No, we don't trust those monsters. And then you think we're speaking the same language, but no, man, we are not. We are not. It requires some bridging. All right. So let's talk about the baby lawyers. What's going on with them? Yeah. I don't know. Yes, you do. Well, I don't actually work to be free. I don't work with a ton of baby lawyers, really. - Not yet. - Not yet. I think in this next class that we'll come in will be the first time that I'm truly supervising. Right now I'm in a more someone you go to for the questions you don't wanna ask a partner, but I'm not directly supervising. So I think I'm gonna shift a little bit in the next round of people coming in. But from what I've seen, my frustration lies in, if you don't know how to do it, that's fine. You're not expected to know how to do everything. I kind of expect you to not know how to do anything. But give it the old college try. - Yes. - Give it a go. - Give it a fucking go. Also, if I have delegated something to you, that means I don't have time to do it. Right. So if I have given you something to do, and then you proceed for the next three hours to send me chat messages, not emails. - Never email. - No chats. - Chat, Zoom chat or Microsoft Teams chats or whatever insert, whatever the large company. I don't have that here. I only work with Godesses here at my, my love for them, they're amazing. Oh my God, I should have just done it myself. Yeah, but I do think so, I have always told last students, there's no point in spinning your wheels for too long, right? Like, you shouldn't. - That's your question. - But yes, like you make a meeting. - Make a meeting. - Make a meeting. - Or send an email, okay, these are the questions I'm running into. Could we chat through this? Try to come at it from a few different angles. Do try to think about it. Don't just hit something and say, I don't know how to do this and immediately ask. Like, Google it for a second, read a few cases, but if you put that little bit of effort in and you're still not understanding it, then I think you can ask. Don't spend four hours on a rabbit hole that's not productive, but spend 30 minutes. - I would say 15. - I would say an hour. I would say a solid hour. You can do an hour. - Because also the law is a thing where you cobble together the understand. - Right. - That is being a lawyer. - You learn to do this. - There isn't a clear answer. You read a bunch of cases and you synthesize and you figure out what you're doing. - Okay, and by the way, let's just pause right there. I know the difference between if you read the case and if you ask chat GPT to tell you what the case said, I'm not sure I'll always know. Technology is moving quickly. I don't want to sound like grandma up in here, but I fucking know. I know, I also know you don't use M-dashes by yourself. I know. - Okay, I do. I gotta defend the M-dash. - I'm not, but for the most part, if I get a memo from you and every other sentence that's an M-dash, then I know you didn't write this. - Yeah. - M-mo. I know you didn't write it at all, but I don't even know anymore if you read it. - Yeah. - And that is where I get really frustrated before you send something to me, you need to have read it over. Let me be very clear what read it over means. Read it over doesn't mean you skimmed it. Read it over might mean for you that you printed it out onto a piece of paper or you converted it to PDF or you just walked away, got a cup of coffee and then really came back and read it. It does not mean that you gave it the quick once over and assumed I get to catch all the mistakes. It is so frustrating. Also, if I take the time to walk you through something, bring a notepad with you. - Yeah. - Write down the fucking shit that is coming out of my mouth 'cause you're not gonna remember it. And I don't expect you to remember it. I expect you to just have the guide map to try to do it for an hour before you come back next time and say, "Hey, I really don't remember how to do that thing." Also, if I take the time to read line instead of direct at it, the red lines are for you to see, to learn. - I don't need to do a red line for my sake. And it's so much easier if I open up a new word document in thing and just I'm rewriting and using pieces and I'm basically using you as the way you use chat GPT. That is the way to think about it. - And I do a fushure to it with repeated red lines. I think if I read line something for you, I'm expecting that you will look at those red lines with a critical eye as you go through them and understand that this is how I want something to be said. And I mean the red lines. I don't want you to clear, you're not declining my red lines. - This is how I'm teaching to you. - This is a teachable moment. - And if you aren't getting it, just tell me that. - Yeah. - Say, this isn't how I learn. And you know what, I'm not gonna do it that way then 'cause I'm spending time doing it in a way that I'm hoping you learn how to do the thing. - And I think it is. - I care about you and I care about developing you and I want you to be good at this and I wanna work well together with you. - And I think it's fair to say to someone after the fact, right? You've done the thing, maybe if you have time during the thing to say, hey, I saw that you red line get this way, could you talk me through why you like it that, right? Because a lot of times in this profession, we do things a certain way. And there is a reason, but we've forgotten that there was a day that we didn't understand that reason. Rather than the things you just take for granted. - 100%. - And so sometimes you just don't recognize that this is something I need to explain to you. I'm assuming that you're just at this level even though you're not. And that's an unfair assumption on my part, but you gotta recognize that and then ask for some clarity. - Okay. But that's probably true throughout generations. And we learn this trade through the slog. Your first year is hard in a way that I think is necessary because that's how you learn. And I don't mean working 400 hour months and insane hours. I mean, being challenged. - Being challenged and having to read a bunch of cases and reading the same case four times over because you just don't understand what's going on and where these holdings they're coming from and why this is so important to this area of law. And I think that's really important because then you keep coming back to those foundational cases throughout your career. And so understanding how courts get to that reasoning, understanding this role in the progeny of decisions is a really essential part of being a lawyer. And I am concerned that AI is gonna skip that. - Well, AI could be a great tool if you use it as a tool to do it. - It just, it can't replace you thinking about it. It can't replace if you wanna start with AI to help you as your assistant in the situation, I don't see a downside to that. Where I see a downside is how did you study this for the exam in law school? I do think there is this thought process that after you reach a certain point in your career, you're done studying. That's never true. There's so much to learn. The way that you absorb the case in law school, however that might have been, that's how you should be reading it at least one time. Right? I mean, for foundational cases-- - One time-- - Yeah, part of what law school taught you how to do was read a case. So you should definitely have that skill. - And there's a reason you were taught how to read a case that way. - No. - It's not just because like, oh, that was a fun law school activity. - Right. - And there's a reason they taught you the different levels of authority and why, yeah. Those things in law school do actually matter. And you're not actually expected to know that. I'm totally cool with the mistakes, but I agree with you that the biggest criticism that I could give this next generation of baby lawyers is, I mean, it's okay to try. - Yeah. - So we've got an isolated group. We've got my generation that's terrified to make a mistake. We've got your generation that you guys are just so mean to us. So mean. Like zero compassion. You just know everything. And you don't need anybody. You've got it, but you'll hang out, why not? And whatever. And then this next one is just they won't try anything. It's, and those are giant stereotypes that permeate though. And it makes it really difficult for us to play in the sandbox together. - Yeah. And those stereotypes that influence recruiting and influence the way that people are thinking about the culture, and the culture, and yeah, they're a real thing. - Yeah. So the first step to healing us to name the problem, right? - Right, Peter. I mean, whenever I'm a millennial, we did it. We named the problem. - Thanks for joining the conversation. You can find Bar Review wherever you get your podcasts. Please subscribe and share. Wanna keep the conversation going? Follow us on social at BarReview LLC. Onnick will see you there, and she'll tell me all about it. Got a question you want us to tackle in a future episode? Send it our way. We try to read every you know. And just a reminder, we are not your lawyer. This is not legal advice, and these opinions are just our own. Cheers.