Why Being Right Is Costing You Trust | A Bit of Optimism: Feelings at Work | PART 4

I think an apology is the highest form of accountability. I teach a lot of workshops, and I decided to teach one on apologizing. We had a photographer that day, he was just supposed to be taking pictures of the workshop. I say something like, "Oh, does anyone have anything they want to say?" And he raises his hand and he's like, "I had no idea, no idea that I needed to learn how to apologize." But apologies are the tip of an iceberg that I just, I didn't know how big this iceberg was. And I really think this is going to change my whole marriage. It's one of these things that almost no one thinks that they need to work on. I think we all think we know how to do it. Yeah. Because we've done it. Okay, hot take. If you want a really quick and easy way to make my blood boil, the next time I sincerely share how I feel because of something you said or did, say, "I'm sorry you feel that way." This is on the top of my list of non-apologies or deflections that so many people offer when confronted with negative impact from their words or actions. No one wants to look dumb or bad or wrong. No one wants to be told that we did something that caused pain to someone or did damage it work. And so we point fingers, offer excuses, and use words that take the spotlight off us. So let's start with our first accountability lesson. Let's all admit we have done one or all of these things. And that's okay. There are some very simple ways we can get comfortable with accountability and know how to express it in ways that strengthen's trust. Instead of taking a summer hiatus, we're presenting a special five episode series of a bit of optimism. To go deep on human skills, those things that help us connect, collaborate, and succeed in any human relationship. That's why I invited Alex Simon, founder of LifeShop, where she teaches emotional intelligence to join me. And over these five episodes, we will tackle some of the messier human interactions, like having hard conversations, people pleasing, listening, and giving feedback. And this one, taking accountability. Now, when you hear accountability, you may be thinking KPIs or scorecards. That's not what I'm talking about. This is about knowing how to confidently own it when we mess up. There are three big ideas we're going to explore in this episode. First, there's a reason our apologies don't land. And it's not because our intent was off or the other person is unreasonable. It's because a lot of us are running software we installed when we were five years old. And we never updated. We discuss why accountability is so hard and how to reprogram our approach. Next, if you've ever sat in a meeting and watched someone present your idea as theirs, and then watched as that same person dodged responsibility when things went sideways, you're about to understand why. We uncover why taking credit and blame actually come from the same place deep inside our psyche and how we can resolve it. And finally, we're going to talk about what a real apology actually does, not just for the person receiving it, but for the person giving it. And something happens in the middle of that discussion that I did not expect. And it changed the way I feel about saying sorry. And I'll add just one more thing. This episode actually comes with a warning. That by the end, you may have the urge to call someone about that thing that you've been trying to avoid owning up to. And if you enjoy this episode, also please remember to subscribe. This is a bit of optimism. Let's talk about a very difficult topic. A sensitive topic, dare I say. Okay. Especially when it comes to something like saying sorry, it's amazing how people don't know how to do it. Yes. And how not knowing how to apologize or doing it in a way that you think is self-preserving actually can inflame a situation at worst and at best a damaged trust. I really agree. And for me, the apology is kind of how I got started on all of this in my life. I did not know this. Yeah. Saying sorry is your origin story? It's origin story. Okay. Because when I was growing up, I had a parent who I will not name which parent. Just in case they both listen to this. I'm going to guess it's either your mom or your dad but we won't say which one. One of my parents really struggled to take a kind of ability. And they pretty much didn't apologize for anything my whole life, which is tricky because parents make mistakes as they are human. And so I've been really sensitive to apologies my whole life. I used to have an apology formula and my sister and I were in we would get in fights out there. You have to apologize in this way and she would say this is too rigid. And it probably was too rigid but I've always taken apologies really, really seriously. And maybe four years ago, I got in a fight with my boyfriend at the time. And he said a classic apology, which is, I'm sorry that you feel that way. I had explained to him the rigid formula of apologizing. Many times. And he said it and I just kind of lost it. And at the beginning I was angry because I felt like, oh, you know, you haven't listened to this thing that I have said is important to me. And then I also felt a lot of compassion. I mean, I thought you had a apologize, but no one generally teaches people how to apologize. And so we expect that other people know how to take kind of ability. For things, we expect that people know how to repair and how to move on and how to actually reconnect after things have gone south. But like really it's like that no one teaches. It's so complex emotionally. And when somebody says, I'm sorry you feel that way. Instantly, like there's a little switch that makes me into a bit of an asshole. Yeah. And I know what's happened because it happened multiple times, because many people say, I'm sorry you feel that way. And my stock instant response is you cannot apologize for how I feel. You can only apologize for the thing that you did that made me feel this way. And this is what people don't understand when they're the ones who have to do the apologizing. It's catharsis for the person who's being apologized to. I had a fight with a friend, in an argument, I was sensitive about something. I don't know what. And. And so for sure. Something. Something. And I said, you know, this thing that you did, you know, made it upset me. You know? And she goes, well, it shouldn't. I'm like, but it did. You know, she goes, well, I didn't mean it. I'm like, I know you didn't. But I still feel this way because you did that. And she goes, well, I shouldn't have to apologize. And I'm like, but you did that. And I feel this way. And we're talking about accountability. And she just couldn't go there. She absolutely refused. And it's getting more and more heated. She's getting frustrated. I'm getting frustrated. And I said, I can make this stop immediately if you want this to stop immediately. She goes, yes, I would like this to stop immediately. Like I said, it's very simple. Just copy what I'm going to tell you. Just say, I'm sorry. She says, I'm sorry. I said, thank you. I'm good. And this is what I find amazing, which is when somebody gives a heartfelt sorry. Because it's really hard to say I'm sorry. It's so hard. It's very hard to say, right? And I was fine. I literally, all of this stress, all attention, went away even telling her what to say to me that she would say it. The catharsis worked. And I was good and the whole thing diffused. And it was a lesson for her. She was, I never realized that I thought the apology was me sort of admitting that I'm at fault. And I'm like, no, it's just taking accountability for the peace. And this is one of the great lessons I've learned about saying, sorry, which is saying you're sorry doesn't mean you're wrong. All it means is you take accountability for the thing that you said or did. That's all it means. And my analogy that I'd love to use, if you're at the airport and you're walking through the airport with your wheelie bag, your wheelie bag accidentally rolls over someone's foot. You turn to look at them, they look at you, and you say, what? And they go, say sorry. Like, no, you ran out of my foot. I didn't mean to. That's a really quick analogy, yeah. But we always say sorry. Do you know why we say sorry? Because it's our wheelie bag. Yes, we did not intend to run over someone's foot. But it is our wheelie bag. And so when you run over someone's foot, you immediately turn around and say, I'm so sorry and they're like, don't worry about it. Yeah. Right? That's how accountability works, which is even if you didn't intend it, it's still your words, it's still your actions, it's still your wheelie bag, just take accountability for those things and we're good. Nobody's looking for right or wrong. We're looking for accountability for words or actions. That's all it means. So apologies are one part of accountability. Let's talk about credit. Okay. There are people who take credit for everything. They think it helps make them look good and make them impressive. And I've seen this happen. I was literally in a meeting where there was a discussion and let's say person B had an amazing idea in the meeting. Okay? We all agreed that was an amazing idea. We then went to the second meeting and then the second meeting. Person A was like, so I had this idea. Yeah. And I'm looking at person B and we're like, WTF. Right? We're like, first of all, not that person's idea. Like, I heard you say it. And second of all, at best or at worst rather, just say we had an idea because we were all in the room. But like, I listened to this person go, I had an idea. And then tells everybody the idea and I was like, that's a great idea. It was an amazing thing to which this person take excessive and too much amount of credit and not very good at sharing it and the accumulation of it. It was a flag and I started paying attention. I didn't say anything. I just started paying attention. And then I also noticed something that I think goes along with people who take too much credit is when things go wrong, it's never their fault. And I think blame and not knowing how to take credit properly are bedfellows. And the reason is because I think the root of both of them is the same. It's like a diffusing responsibility into someone else when things go south and when things go right, you're taking it all on your feet. Right. And I think they're born out of the same thing, which is insecurity. blame is the opposite of accountability and it is pointing to anything other than yourself for why something went badly. You can blame another person, you can blame circumstances, you can blame the weather, you can blame whatever you want. Those things often show up in bad apologies. I'm sorry I was late, but there was traffic. True. (laughing) Right? And I know why people do it. It's because it has the appearance of accountability, but it sort of waters it down a little bit. It's different than I'm sorry I was late. Oh, the traffic. You can still get it in there, but you're not, both. No, this is the minute you say the word but. Like literally, it negates the thing that lets, that's actually what the word but does. It negates everything that came before it. I'm sorry, but you started it. Yeah. I'm sorry, but I wouldn't have said that if you didn't say that first. And I feel like this is so the water that we're swimming in that we don't even notice that this is our first reaction. Like something happens, and at least for me, my first reaction is to find someone to blame in my head. And I have to actively stop myself from doing that. By the way, I think that's normal. I think it's super normal. I think we all do. Because it doesn't feel good to be wrong or hurt someone or make a bad decision or whatever it is. It doesn't feel good. It's much easier to blame the weather, to blame another person. And I just think it's the culture that we're in. And so we live in a very blame-forward culture, which is just tragic, but it's also part of our, and it's part of our experience. And it's equally unhealthy to always blame yourself. But because sometimes it is other things. I'll tell you my favorite accountability story. You see this a lot in people in finance. I wonder why? That when everything goes right, like when they make tons of money and they're like, 20% portfolio growth, wow, wow, wow. It's because they're geniuses. I achieve 20% growth, right? But if the portfolio loses 20%, it's always the market conditions. And the market conditions, of course. It's always the market conditions. The portfolio lost 20% this year, but it's easy to understand if you understand the conditions of the market this season. The funny thing is I don't mind either logic, but you can't mix your logics, right? You can either be the genius, I'm fine with that, but then when things go down, then you're the idiot. That would be correct, that would be linear logic. Or you can either be the luckiest bastard in the world 'cause it's going up. And just really unlucky 'cause it went down, right? You can't mix your logics. (laughing) But what it is is I like to take credit and I don't like to take responsibility. So Alex, we've talked a little bit about blame, saying sorry, credit. What is the root? What is getting in the way of why people do blame? Why people can't say sorry, don't know how to apologize and don't know how to effectively take credit or give credit? - Yeah, it's so unbelievably hard. First of all, I think we don't really know, we're never really taught how and we're not really modeled how because of this culture that we're in. - So one of skills. - Yeah, one of skills. I think when we're kids, you're taught like, I'm sorry, I was like, thank you. It's like, take this thing, say thank you. It's like, you mess this up, say, say, sorry, say, sorry. And they're like, I'm sorry. And that's kind of a complete sentence. It's then as adults, we both, that's the problem. We're saying I'm sorry all the time with the wheelie bag. But then when it actually comes down to it, we don't know how do I actually take responsibility for something? - I think when people take accountability, they think it's a sign of weakness. I think they confuse taking accountability and being wrong. - Yeah, and we have such an intense fear of being wrong. - Nobody wants to be wrong. - Yeah, although I think just on the subject of being wrong, just like we've talked about everything else, just like getting constructive feedback at the beginning is really uncomfortable, but then once you get used to it, you kind of crave it. I think that ability to be wrong is also something that you can kind of, in an awesome way, build the muscle of. And then all of a sudden, you want to be learning and be figuring out, okay, where am I wrong? How can I be updating my perspective on something? - And this goes back to that funny skill, which I don't think people know how to be wrong. - Yeah. - Most people think of wrong as empirical, like it's a math formula, right? That here's the answer. You either are right or you are wrong. It is empirical, right? But in many things, that's sometimes true. Sometimes it is empirical, you know, and there is right and wrong. But very often it's subjective. And so when I say people don't know how to be wrong, I'll give you an example. I made a call, it was the wrong call, and it had a negative impact on the company, the team, the revenue, whatever, right? And everybody knows it, 'cause I made the decision. And I could say, well, that was the best, you know, like I could sort of like go around it and be like, well, I was I supposed to know, or I'm just trying to do the best I can, right? Which are all deflections of accountability. And so let's say I'm like, all right, I'm gonna take accountability, and I'm gonna admit that I was wrong, right? There's a couple ways to do it and people get it wrong. When we say, this is what people think, right? Hey, that decision, I was wrong. And I should have asked for more advice. I was too quick, and yeah, I'm sorry, I was wrong. And that's what most people think when they talk about admitting you're wrong. They think that tone of voice, which is de fetist, it's weak, it's humiliating when you have a growth mindset and you recognize that you have inherent value and that sometimes you make mistakes, saying you're wrong can come out completely differently. For example, so that decision, I was completely wrong. I should have asked for more advice. I made the decision too quickly, and yep, I-- - And here's what I learned from that. - And I completely made the wrong decision. And owning the accountability versus fearing the accountability, that is what makes people follow you. It's not that you get things right, and this is what people get wrong, which is they think that if I get everything right, I'm a credible leader. If I get everything right, people will follow me and trust me, incorrect, 'cause everybody knows that you're not perfect and nobody is, and everybody knows when you made a mistake, like everybody knows, and owning it, the confidence to own it is what makes somebody wanna follow you, that makes you build trust, and it's not humiliating. - Yeah. - It is a growth mindset and sets an incredible tone for any team whether you're the leader or not. - We think that we need to be strong in this kind of like puffed up chest, like I'm not making mistakes way, when actually that's actually a really brittle sign of strength. And true strength is what I'm hearing from what you're saying, is being able to admit, oh, this thing, didn't get it right, this is what I learned, we're still okay. - You're making a nuanced observation that I think is worth just underlining for just a second, which is people puff up and act strong to promote themselves or their position, whatever it is, and project confidence, and they think projecting confidence is being bombastic and giving excuses and proving that I'm infallible, right? But what they're recognizing is that is false confidence. It is theatrical confidence, the kind of confidence you play when you're playing that character. True confidence, it is better posture and holding up. And it visually looks the same, but for the fact that true confidence is the ability to admit fallibility with confidence. - Superficially they look very similar, which is why I think people opt for one and not the other. And the puffing up is easier, and the other one is more difficult, because the irony is they think it comes with risk and it actually doesn't. - I love the focus on how it gives catharsis to the person receiving the apology. I also personally think it gives catharsis to the person giving the apology. Like for me, I've noticed when I'm at something up, it's still my first instinct to be defensive, to kind of steal myself off, to try to figure out why this thing wasn't my fault. Those are still my instincts. And then the second I'm able to eek out, I'm sorry, even if at the beginning, I'm kind of saying it through a gritted teeth. I feel like it opens the door for me to actually express my feeling, which often is like genuine remorse, that I'm kind of protecting myself from a lot of the time. But like once I say the words, then something gets relieved in my system. There's also catharsis for me. And then it opens the door of like, oh, what are the things that I can take accountability for? It does relieve tension, right? Have you go back to the Wheeliebag example, right? If failure to say, sorry, that will escalate. Yeah. Saying sorry, de-escalates. Yeah, it connects also, I feel like. And for me, I think often I don't want to apologize first, not because I don't feel bad and because I can't see the part that I can own, but because I have a fear almost that if I apologize first, if I take responsibility for my peace first, that means somehow that I will have lost the fight and I will be wrong. And then I will lose, I'll basically be forfeiting the opportunity for them to recognize how they also hurt me or how their actions also impacted me. What's so interesting about knowing how to apologize is it models behavior, right? That when one person does it and does it effectively, it very often, I'd say more often than not, creates an environment for the other person to just take a deep breath, let the stress go down and also take accountability. And very often we think that if you say, first you're sorry first, it means the admission of guilt or that you're wrong or that you caused it, it doesn't. It just means you're the first person to take accountability for your share and whatever happened. Maybe they did start something, but your reaction wasn't great. You can say sorry for that, which creates the conditions for everybody to take accountability. If we go back to what a leader is, we call you leader, not because you are at the top of the organization, we call you leader because you went first, you literally led the way. And so I would argue that anybody who chooses to lead a leadership lifestyle will model behavior whether they have position of rank or authority or not. And by leading the way and saying the taking accountability for whatever your part is, even if it was the second part, you're creating a safe space for somebody who struggles with apologies to then say sorry. And it almost always works. I have a horrible one where it didn't, where somebody really did wrong me and they really were out of line. My reaction, my initial reaction wasn't great, but. After that, it was just very difficult situation that created massive amounts of tension. And I could never get an apology or an accountability for this person. The relationship was destroyed. And so I decided in an effort to repair the relationship that I would go first. And so I met up with this person and I said, "You know, we both know what happened. I just want to say that I'm sorry for the way I reacted. It's not the way I like to show up and I'm sorry that I spoke to you that way." And he looked me in. Good. No. Yeah. He didn't say anything about it? It's nothing. He just stared at me. And I know going in that taking accountability, you should never expect it, right? Like you should never do it for that reason. You take accountability because it's, you know, the other person would be like, "I'm sorry I put my foot in front of your bag." You know? Yeah. Like you don't do it for the other person. It's not to instigate something. It should be genuine. And maybe that's my mistake. Maybe I did do it with the hope that it would pave the way for him. Was I thinking? Yeah. Yeah. And maybe there was some sort of, "Well, I'll be the leader. I'll be the good one here and let's see what happens." Right? But I gave the benefit of the doubt, right? And maybe that was my mistake. And I apologized to my share and he literally just looked at me and he went, "Okay, good." And I was like, "That's it." I was like, "Mm?" You know? He's like, "What?" I was like, "Is there anything you want to add?" He's like, "No." Really? Yeah. Needless to say, that was the last time I ever saw him. No. Yeah. I got up and walked away. This is clearly somebody I can't do business with because there is an absolute refusal to share in the accountability for the situation that has been created. How can I ever work with this person ever again? I literally got up and walked away. I said, "All right, I think we're done then." I'm sorry, I went this way and I walked away. And I think that's the only time I've ever done that in my life just got up and walked away because it had literally reached a point where there was nothing I could do. It was over. It gave what in retrospect, my mistake was maybe I was being self-righteous by thinking, "I'll be the good one and take the apology first." I was scraping the barrel to look for something that I didn't run. Like this one maybe never. So there's one thing that I said. But I had hoped that creating the environment. But I think what had happened there is the relationship was already over. And I'm like, "What am I doing?" And maybe I did it for my own for me. Like I needed to exercise the demons and get the narrative stopped rolling around in my head. And in this case, maybe I said the sorry more for me than for the situation. And I also think that that makes sense. Sometimes you need to own all of your parts as much as you can. That way you could know it well at least I did everything. And I do. I think it did exercise a lot of demons for me because I'm like, I owned my part of it and I'm good. And there's relief in that, I think. But now what I think is really interesting and this is what I'm learning in this conversation is we're having it is if you need to apologize for yourself, for your own catharsis because we said yes, the person you apologize to gets catharsis. But the person who gives the apology can find catharsis too. It did allow me to stop the narrative swirling around in my head and the anger and the blame that was swirling around in my head. Like he did this to me and like sleepless nights and all of this stuff. And me just sort of owning my little bit and doing the right thing and putting it on the table and allowing that person. I actually was I was okay. And that's even as you were telling the story, I was thinking about however many years of past since this happened. Like for me, when I when I know that I did something that I regret doing and I don't take accountability for it, the way that that like continues to fester in my being is so shitty. Because you know, because you know and then you both know that you didn't and then you also are in a place of really intense cognitive dissonance because you're also trying to try to convince yourself that it's not your fault and it's someone else's fault, but then on a deeper level, you kind of know. I still have things that I have. I don't think I've fully taken accountability for and like that's a really painful thing. It's like trying to convince myself of a narrative that like a different part of me knows that I don't believe. And I think the owning of it is the catharsis also for yourself. And the pain on credit and blame I want to put in is I think as I said, they are, they're bedfellows. And we've talked about negative examples. We blame too much people who take credit too much. It's hard to trust them, especially when you start to figure it out. One of the best leaders I know, he's a leader that I admire. I try to model myself after he is astonishing. And I talk about this all the time. That's just one of the really shitty things about being a leader and the choice to live the leadership lifestyle. One of the really uncomfortable things is you have to give away all the credit and take all the blame. Like when things go wrong, it's on you because you're the leader and when things go right, it's because everybody else, right? That's just how it works. And I've seen it modeled by this guy I know who is astonishing. And if you pay him any compliment, it's amazing what you accomplished. He'll be like, it was, it was my team. It was them. I played a bit role. And I'm like, no man, you, you, you, it's like, yeah, I mean, sure, but you've got to see this team I've got there. It is genuine. It is 100% genuine. He oozes with gratitude for the people who sacrifice to serve him. And then I've seen the opposite when things go sideways. He goes, the buck stops here. The buck stops here. Maybe I should have intervened more. Maybe I should have checked in more often. Maybe I should have given better direction. But at the end of the day, the reason went wrong. If you want to look for somebody to blame you, blame me. And the result is he has credibility through the roof. People will die for him. You know, people will change career paths to be with him. And everybody from very senior people to the most junior people worship him. He is so respected. And he's so humble the way he goes through life. And the reason he wreaks of humility, just a quick aside, my favorite definition of humility is by Bob Gailer, who's the former chief master sergeant of the Air Force. He said, don't confuse humility with meekness. He said humility is being open to the ideas of others, which I love. And it's not aw, shucks. That's not, that's meekness. humility is like, that's a great idea. Your idea is better than mine. And the ability to give credit is humble. And this leader, he's insanely senior and insanely powerful. And he goes through life with deep unfettered gratitude to those who give and work hard. He goes through life accepting that it's on his shoulders. And he also maintains high standards. So when somebody screws up, he will tell you. And something goes horribly wrong and someone's irresponsible, he will tell you. So I don't want people to confuse that giving credit and taking blame means that you let go standards. He does not. And it's an amazing thing to witness. It sounds incredible. Yeah, it sounds really inspiring. And it also sounds like it has like a cascading effect. He makes everybody want to be a better leader around him. And it creates conditions of everybody to give credit and take blame. He's surrounded by people like, no boss, I did that. He's like, I should have been there to help you more. He's like, no, no, I didn't. Boss, no, I'll fix it, boss. I believe that is the paradox of accountability though. It's like when someone takes their part of accountability, it feels like you're going to lose, but then actually it inspires other people to take accountability for their part too. When it's done genuinely and not work. And it makes for a great team because everybody takes accountability. And it is ideally by the leader. And I also think we're talking about it as if it's very simple, but I find it so hard. No, no, it's very very hard. Like any professional, like a professional baseball player makes it look easy. That's one of the arts of being great at what you do is you make it look easy. But it's so, all of these things are so simple, but not easy. Okay, let's talk about apologies. Okay, I'll start. Because that's the elephant in the room that really is normal. How do we actually do it? How does one actually apologize? Okay, let us hear, please share your rigid apology formula. The first thing that I think about is recognition of what happened in a specific way. This means maybe the most important thing is often when we apologize. For me, just saying the words, I'm sorry, it doesn't do anything. The things we know don't work. I'm sorry, just for me, I'm sorry, period doesn't really do that much. It feels like a script. I'm sorry, but we talked about this. That negates it. I'm sorry that you feel that way. These are like the three, like definitely don'ts. I think the alternative is to recognize both what happened and also the impact of the other person. And so this avoids the vague, like, I'm sorry. You know, they're like, I'm sorry that you're hurt or you're like, there's this kind of like these big statements that don't for me don't actually land with anything. It's like, well, what are you sorry for? There are more attempts to try and fight or in the tension rather than take actual accountability. When it comes to recognizing what specificity, I'm like, I like to recognize, okay, literally what did I do? And what is the impact that it had? For example, I'm really sorry that I canceled last minute and I imagine that it made you feel like you were in a priority and I really want to own that that is how it could have impacted you. And so it's not just like, I'm sorry for what happened. That's another one that I think is a big don't or I'm sorry, I'm sorry for what I did. It's like, okay, well, what did you do? What did you do? And have you taken the time to empathetically imagine how did that make me feel? And that to me, those two prongs of like recognition of what happened, of my piece of what happened and also the impact that it had on me, that's a really beautiful combination. I a hundred percent agree. I a hundred percent agree that the apology should be specific. I'm sorry that things happened. Yeah. Okay. I'm sorry I showed up late to your party. I'm sorry I dropped the ball on the project that you assigned to me. Those are great. Those are specific. I'm sorry I didn't communicate sooner when things went wrong and then things got out of hand. And when you talk about impact, it doesn't necessarily have to be feelings like, and I know I let my team down. Right? Then I completely agree with the apology. I think that is very effective and very powerful. effect evil. saying it hypothetically now, I'm like, that's a good apology. I also thought that was like wrong. Thank you. I don't really care. Thank you, I feel better. And to know it, it's okay. We will get through it and we won't let it happen again. Where it goes sideways, which is you have to actually know what you did and you actually have to know what the implications were. Because I've had somebody guess and they guessed wrong. The actual impact. I can't believe you missed the deadline. Well, I mean, what do you mean I missed the deadline? Do you have any idea the impact that had on everybody else? Well, what impact did it have on us? They were waiting for you and you just disappeared and turned off your email and didn't answer your phone and we didn't know what the hell was going on. And now we're all waiting for this thing from you. Well, I'm sorry. You know, that's not going to work. It's like, oh my God, I didn't realize. I am so sorry that I was unavailable when you were relying on me and that I let the team down. No, and the idea of guessing is not an apology. It devalues the formula we're giving. I agree and I think it depends on how you guess. I think guessing is really important as long as you leave space to be corrected. And so when I guess, I guess about how the impact that it had on someone and then I kind of ended on a question mark to be like, is that right? Let's finish your scenario. You said, I apologize for showing up late. I imagine that it made you feel like you weren't being prioritized and your time was being wasted. No, that's not it at all, I would say. And then I'd be like, oh, okay. That's not it at all. Because now I'm recognizing for the wrong thing. I'm like, no, it's not that. It's this thing. It's not that. It's that I was so excited for all my friends to meet you and then you just didn't show up and it was humiliating. Yeah. And so then it's like, okay, cool. Now I have the information I need. If I take my ego out of it and it's not like, oh, I need to know exactly what I'm guessing and what the other person is feeling. But I'm more like on a curiosity mission so I can understand where the person is coming from. So what we are saying, what we talk about in our hard conversations episode of like hard conversations are a chance for us to mutually understand. So if I make a guess and it's wrong, great. Now I have the information that actually you need, which is, oh, you're excited. You want me to be there because I'm important to you. So it's not you feeling deprioritized by me. It's that you want to, whatever, increase our connection by introducing me to your friends or whatever. So let's summarize, a good apology is not, I'm sorry, but it's not whatever, I'm sorry, are you? I'm sorry that happened. Yeah, it's not, I'm sorry that you feel that way. I'm sorry, oh my God, the worst. I'm sorry you feel that way. None of those are actual apologies. They're old deflections or diffusions, right? A real apology is specific based on words said or actions performed or not, not said or not performed. And a recognition of what happened. Yeah, the impact that I have on that. The recognition of the impact. That's a good apology. And that the impact can be different from my intentions. Like I didn't intend for my wheelie bag to run over your foot. Yeah, but it did. But it did. But the reason I'm okay with the, I'm sorry is because I think the specificity is sometimes understood in the situation. And I'll use my wheelie bag example again. When I run over someone's foot with my wheelie bag and turn around and I say, I'm so sorry, it is very clear that I am apologizing for my bag running over their foot. I don't have to say, I am so sorry that my bag ran over your foot. That must really hurt your toes. It's a little much. Yes. When I was fighting with my friend, it was very clear what we were fighting about and it was very clear the impact that it had. It was a wheelie bag situation. Like there was no room for uncertainty. And maybe that works for you. For me, it wouldn't. So if somebody runs over your foot with a wheelie bag. No, no, no. In obvious, Logan's scenario is obviously that. But in emotionally complex scenarios, for me, the specificity is what brings the catharsis. Okay. One of my favorite tricks for accountability is to practice like a micro accountability. I'm sorry. Because sometimes apologies don't need to be this big thing. We don't need to wait until things escalate and accumulate. And so if we just say something small that we regret, you can just own it in the moment. Like, actually, sorry, that came out wrong. I would actually meant is this thing. And what that does is it kind of stops the defensiveness from accumulating, which then makes it harder. Right. So, right. I misspoke and saying, I'm sorry, I misspoke. That's really interesting because it'll, again, it's accountability for the misstatement. We all make misstatements, but apologizing for the misstatement rather than brushing over it or just acknowledging it allows for the person on the receiving end to get past that misstatement and actually let it go quicker. Rather than accumulating on both sides. The accumulating defensiveness on one side and resentment on the other side. And rather than denying that it was a misstatement, trying to double down on the misstatement, just apologize and move on. Yeah. So I think micro-politicality, micro-appare is a really good one. What I think is so interesting about this conversation, kind of like what we've talked about in other episodes about giving compliments or giving feedback, which is you kind of have to learn a little bit about how somebody wants their apology. Like, you have to check in. My standard is a little different than you. Yes, totally. And yours is higher than mine. You must be higher than mine. I'm okay with the apologies as long as it's obvious what's being apologized for and very often it is. I think time has a component. You know, like in a situation, I think it's pretty obvious, but if the situation is drawn out over the course of days or weeks, then I think you need to make reference to what has happened. Yeah, I'll share a personal story of a recent time that I had a really hard time apologizing. I was in a fight with someone who I was dating and I did something that was clearly a mistake but also really impacted him. And he was very hurt. And I was really focused on how it was a mistake. How obviously I didn't mean to hurt him because I know that my intentions are good and I'm often in the trap that I've discussed before, which is, oh, I know my intentions are good. Therefore, if it's clashing with how it's impacting you in a bad way, I'm like, well, how is that possible? My intentions are good. I never want to hurt anyone. But he was clearly very hurt and I was being defensive. I was like, justifying my position rather than just acknowledging his pain and expressing that the thing that was true to me, which is that I was very sorry that I made this mistake. So I was being defensive, being defensive and he was just like, why can't you just say you're sorry? So in a similar situation, like, gave me the script that I'm sorry. And so I took it and I said, okay, I'm sorry. And at the beginning, the first, I said it and I like, didn't really mean it. I would say like, I was saying the words, but I was still, I know, but I was saying the words. It's so hard. Why is it so hard? And I was saying the words more and I like, I want this to be over and like, you're making me say this thing. Which is much akin to, I'm sorry, you feel that way. Yes. I mean, it's the same, same family. And I said it and I like clearly forced it out, clearly didn't mean it. But then he took it like it was real and he was like, thank you. Thank you so much. It really hurt. And then when he said that, I looked at him, a person who I love and I was like, wow, I really hurt him. I do feel sorry. So the actual remorse came after you got the response. Yeah. Very interesting. And a few minutes passed, we were kind of like an awkward silence. We were kind of just sitting there. And the wave of realization just started hitting me of like, okay, why am I defending myself that I didn't wake up early to go to this thing that I know really mattered to him? Why am I so invested in making sure that he knows that I didn't do it on purpose? Like the reality is that I didn't go to this thing. He matters to me. It matters to him. And so then after a few minutes, I said, wait, actually I am really sorry. Beautiful. And I elaborated my apology and I owned both what happened and the impact. And then he softened even more. And then, oh, this is so good. And then a few minutes passed and we kind of got over it. He forgave me. It was over. And then half an hour later, it hit me even more. Like, wow, I really wish I didn't do this thing. And on an even deeper level, and I could apologize again. Even though the conversation was over, everything was done. The third apology definitely wasn't necessary, but I was able to find genuine regret. Here's the very, very, very, very important insight that you are revealing. What is it? No, no, it's so important. It's so important. Which is the point of an effective apology is it does, in fact, relieve tension. That's what it actually does. And if somebody gives a false apology, I'm sorry, or I'm sorry, but, or I'm sorry, hurt your feelings. They will walk away from that situation. I'm talking about the apologizer. Will walk away from the situation. Still angry, still seething, still having some twisted narrative about the other person in their brain, which means they have not apologized or taken accountability sufficiently to relieve their own guilt. And my point is the body knows. The body knows. Even when you gave a forced apology, even if he believed it, your body, you knew that you actually had more. And so the value of an effective apology allows the apologizer to also let go of the hurt and the tension and the guilt. And it's not just a gift to the other person, it is a gift to you. And sometimes it goes back to my scenario of me apologizing, maybe I was being self-righteous, but no, I'm thinking like when somebody goes through alcoholics anonymous, one of the first things they have to do is they have to make amends. And they literally make a list of all the people they've wronged. And they just start calling people. I had a friend call me, a friend I hadn't talked to in years, like an old friend from another time, nothing happened. We just fell out of touch. Out of the blue calls me and just says, "Hey, I know I haven't talked in a while. I just want to apologize for that time you lent me that thing and I broke it and gave it back to you and denied that I broke it," which is exactly what I wanted. I'm like, "Wait, I gave you this to you and I broke it. Why is it broken? I didn't do it." I'm like, "Okay." "Years later." I'm over it. You know? "Years later calls me and apologizes. It wasn't for me. The reason alcoholics have to make amends." is for them. Yeah. Because they carry the guilt. Yeah, it's like a microplastics in your soul. It's like microplastics in your soul. And so here's what we're advocating. The apology is as much for you as it is for the other person and the situation. Yeah. That you will let go of your own anger, your own narrative. Because only when you gave the false apology, did your brain be like, "Whoa, no, that you were harboring until you actually made a real apology, then you could relax." And I find that absolutely beautiful. And so there wasn't a self-righteousness when I apologized. I just needed to get it out. Yeah. I need to alleviate my tension for the part that I got wrong. And even if he was incapable, that's on him. And the cost was the relationship. Was the relationship? And that's the cost. And that's tragic. And sometimes something horrible happens. Some mistakes are made and we can't take them back. And the only thing we can do is take accountability. And in that case, that's a gift that we give other people. And that's sometimes the only thing we can do. There's one glaring hole that we haven't talked about. What is it? We have been spending all of our time talking about the person who's doing the apologizing. But what about the person who's being apologized to? They play a role as well. And so we've talked about how to give an apology. But do people know how to receive one? Also so hard. Also so hard. I think sometimes when somebody gives a genuine heartfelt honest good apology, and the other person fails to receive it or receives it, brushes it aside and starts attacking. Yeah. And says like, "Thank you." Because you do that all the time to me. And I'm just, I kind of have this, and like, never let that happen again. How dare you? It's like there's a point at which when an apology is good and heartfelt, you have to receive it. And rejecting the apology over and over and over again, I think is as irresponsible as failing to apologize. I agree. It's a tender thing when someone comes to you and says, "It actually takes responsibility for something." I sometimes have the instinct to do exactly what we're saying, like to twist the knife, to be like, "And these other things that you did wrong." And this is said, no, no, no, no. I think it's very normal. And it's almost like when someone takes responsibility for their part, we want to show them the whole tsunami of all the things that they're also not taking responsibility before we want to be even more right. But I think that we need to let that instinct go in the moment. Let's bring it back to work, right? I'm so sorry. I missed the deadline. And I'm so sorry I didn't communicate. And I know I let the team down. Okay? And then the person receiving that apology goes, "Yeah, you do this to us all the time. There's no reason to twist the knife." They are genuinely trying to take accountability. And the correct response is, "Thank you. I hear you. Let us work together. I will help you if you need it to ensure that this doesn't happen again in the future." Yeah. Because I know it hurts you. And I know I can hear the pain. And we will work together to ensure this doesn't happen again. Okay? Yeah. And the other person, yes. Okay. So to be future-oriented, when you're in the receiving end of the apology, I know what happened in the past as what they're apologizing for. But the minute you recognize the apology, the apologizer is genuinely trying. Yeah. And genuinely heartfelt. You have to change the lenses on your glasses to go from the rear of your mirror to the windshield. I agree. You have to start looking forward. I agree. And that also brings us to the next part of it, a good apology, which is what do you do about repair. And to me, an apology is half taking responsibility for what happened. And it's also taking responsibility for what you'll do differently next time. And so I think it's not just that I'm sorry. Yes. Is what happened. And it also involves a- and this is what I've learned from it. This is how things will be different. And not just saying those things and checking the box of saying them, but actually following through. If you get really good at apologizing, it may disincentivise you'd actually fix things. Yeah. Because you're so good at apologizing and just making the tensions go away and making people feel seen and heard. But at the end of the day, if all you do is repeat behavior and just keep apologizing, at some point, though the apologies are good and heartfelt, at some point people will just stop trusting you. Because an apology is like college commencement. It's not the end of something. It's the beginning of something. You know? I'm going to talk- we're not talking about little apologies, right? If there's something systemic or something behavioral or something, you know, that you've got to work on fixing whatever. And I'll use my example. I'm sorry, I missed the deadline and I didn't communicate. And then somebody says, okay, so let's work together to fix that. And you make no attempts to schedule things or ask for help. And it just keeps repeating and repeating. We always say this at work, which is you can't fire somebody for performance issues and you can't fire somebody for behavioral issues. You can fire people if they're uncouchable. Because if you have performance or behavioral issues, I can coach you through either of those things. I can help you. But if you prove yourself to be uncouchable, in other words, there is no growth, then there's no place for you on this team because I can't fix the performance or the behavior and I can't work with you. You won't fix the performance or the behavior and I can't help you. And so I think the same goes here, which is I accept the apology, but now I need growth. Even if the growth is bumpy and stumbling, the momentum has to be forwards. And if you fail to commit to growth and repair for whatever has happened, especially if it's repetitive behavior, I think somebody really does put their job at risk. And the irony here is taking accountability is not what gets you fired. It's failure to repair or ask for help and grow that risks you getting fired. It needs to be paired with the behavioral change. Otherwise, it's just words. Even if they're really, really, really true and honest in the moment. Yeah. Like I do believe that some people feel tremendous guilt and truly do say sorry in that moment. I agree. But then forget and let go and don't make the changes necessary to be made. Yeah. I've seen it happen and sadly, I think we've all done it too. We've all done it. I definitely apologize and like, okay, well, that's done. And see you. Great job. I have a real life scenario where I, and I know the reasons, it's somewhat related to ADHD, but I take accountability. And that's a hard one where I genuinely struggle with remembering things that are important to people. I let people down and I feel bad when it happens and I genuinely want to repair it and I heartfelt say I do and it happens again and again and again. And I cannot say it's not me at the ADHD because it's still me. And this became so difficult and I started to lose credibility because I wasn't doing the work as they saw it, especially when it's easy for them and hard for me. Yeah. And that's the hard one. Why can't you just? I'm like, I wish I could just. But I can't just, right? The huge thing that was a huge gift to me, I stopped putting the entire burden of the repair on my own shoulders because I was failing over and over and over again, hurting relationships and hurting myself that I started to ask for help. And I used to, and then I just said, I know this is easy for you and I need you to understand this is hard for me. And I genuinely want to do it right and I fail every time I need your help. I need to be patient with me. I need you to point it out before it happens. And if you see that I'm slipping, give me a little grace and understand that I'm trying and like be my partner in this repair because I can, don't be testing me because I'm going to let you down over and over again. I'm going to let myself down over and over because I need to learn from you and with you. Can you help me build a structure? What would that structure look like? If you see a hint, can you tell me before it gets to the point, as opposed to waiting to see I'm going to succeed or fail this time? Yeah. And I think that is extremely true at work. They struggle with deadlines. Like instead of just waiting for them to succeed or fail again and prove us right or wrong, like we sit down with them and work out a system to help them. And I've seen it happen that when that happens, that person will outperform just out of the gratitude that someone took time to help them with this thing that they're struggling with. The other thing that I really love with repair is this is just a little thing that I like to do is when I'm sorry and you know, I apologize, I recognize it in the impact. We figure out what is the path forward. It's something that I like to do and top of making sure that I'm doing the behavioral change that is needed in the moment is find a small way to make it up to someone. I find cupcakes work very well. Yes, cupcakes or other don't know. That's good. We know what that does. It reinforces the heart feltness of the apology. Yeah. I think that's very, very nice. I think that's good. Even a little note going, I just wanted to say sorry, I think you're great. Yeah. And I'll tell you the biology of that. Well, it's not really the biology, the anthropology of that, which is money is a redeemable commodity. We spend money, we make money, whatever, we waste money, we make more money, right? But time and effort are non-redeamable commodities. We all have a fixed amount of time and you can't get effort back. And so when someone gives you time or effort, it feels richer than someone giving you money. I love that. I've never thought about those terms. And so for example, like you're moving house and one friend says, you know what, I want to help you. I'm going to pay for the moving van. Here's $5,000 and you're like, amazing. Thank you. And another friend says, you know what, I'm going to come over. I'm going to help you pack all the boxes. I'm going to ride in the van with you. I'm going to get to your new house. I'm going to help you unload and unpack all the boxes. Amazing. Both friends call you the same day and go, I need a favor. You help the one who helped you with the time and effort. Not the one who gave you money. Even though you're super grateful for the money, at the end of the day, time and energy, time and effort are just more valuable. And people always say that, you know, when you have a meeting, it's like, hey, thank you for your time. Boy, thank you for your time for this meeting. No, thank you for your time. I know you're busy. Like, it's really mean something. And so going out of your way slightly, taking a few minutes to write a note, that is often worth more than large sort of displays or hefty words even sometimes. Yeah, it's a different student. It's the showing versus telling. Like, I can tell you I'm sorry and that matters a lot, clearly to me. And to your point about how we can ask people how they want to be apologized to, we can also ask them what repair would look like. What would feel good to you going to work? What do I need to do to prevent this happening? Yeah, what do I need to do? What do we need to do? Right. And I think so I teach a lot of workshops and I decided to teach one on apologizing. Did anybody show up like an apology? That doesn't happen. I'm really sorry. I'm late for the workshop when I apologize. - I just was just pleasing that one happens. And for procrastination, for procrastination, no one signed up for it. And I was like, "Huh, this is weird." And then day of 20 people signed up. - Really is it? - Oh my God, okay, true to point. - That's really funny. - Yes. And when I taught how to apologize, normally my workshops are pretty much always sold out. And very few people signed up for how to apologize. And I was a little bit surprised. And we get there, we had a smaller group, which is nice. We had a photographer that day. And so he was like not really in the workshop, he was just supposed to be taking pictures of the workshop. And then around halfway through, I say something like, "Oh, does anyone have anything they want to say?" And he raises his hand and he's like, "I had no idea that I needed to learn how to apologize." But apologies are the tip of an iceberg that I didn't know how big this iceberg was. And I really think this is gonna change my whole marriage. And he just goes on and on and on and on. And so I think it's one of these things that almost no one thinks that they need to work on. Because we genuinely believe that we are right. I love people around. And they should be apologizing. - And I think we all think we know how to do it. - Yeah. - Because we've done it. Even if we did it in effectively. - This was an episode about broadly about accountability. Where we talked about blame, we talked about how to take and give credit. And we talked a lot about apologizing. - What not to do. - And what not to do. And how an apology is cathartic, obviously for the receiver, but deeply cathartic for the giver. It relieves tension when it is real and authentic. And it is an opportunity for greater teamwork. It is an opportunity for greater cooperation. And how simple, right? Though complex, how simple that learning how to apologize and take accountability in the right way is a gateway for trust, engagement, and vastly better performance inside an organization. It's amazing to me how this little idea, I mean, when we first said it was like, can we do a whole episode on apologizing? Like, we can figure that in 10 minutes. We're done. And like we've talked for over an hour about this. I mean, there's a bit of a bait and switch. We have to acknowledge, which is we called this episode accountability because people will click on that. But if you say, how to apologize, nobody's gonna click on it. So for those who are listening, sorry, not sorry. (laughing) - Sorry, I got it. A bit of optimism is a production of the optimism company, lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbenius, Phoebe Bradford, and Devon Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts, and if you want even more cool stuff, visit SimonCenig.com. Thanks for listening. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other.