Why Am I Attracted to Toxic People?

Why am I attracted to toxic people? Let's talk about it. (upbeat music) - Hey, what's up guys? Welcome to the Moral Revolution podcast. My name is Daniel Madri. - My name is Ellis Madri. - And you are joining us live from our living room in Redding, California. - You say this every time, but it's so fun in me because by the time they hear it, it's not live. - But we're alive. - Well, while we are alive in Praise God. - That's right. - Our small dog of youth is alive. - Yep, she's at our feet right now. - Our team is alive. - They are also in the room. - Let's go. - Let's get things happening today. - It is, a lot of good things happening. And I actually think that we have a fantastic question that we're answering here on the podcast today. - 100%. - All right, that question is, why am I attracted to toxic people? Now, why are you laughing out the game? - Shots fired, chill out babe. - That's right, that's right. - People are gonna feel the weight of this one. - We're going for it today. Here's the deal. I think we see it all the time. You would expect that people in Christian spaces aren't attracted to toxic people, right? - No. - Right, no, I've been going to church my whole life. I can't be attracted to toxic people. - No, and yet here we are. We have some personal stories about this. We have some friends in our lives who are habitually attracted to toxic people. - Babe, those friends are listening. If our friends are listening, we're not talking about you. We're talking about our other friend that we both know who we're talking about. - Oh my goodness. - Okay, here's the deal. Here is the goal of this podcast. If you clicked on this podcast because you saw the title and you're like, "Yep, that is a conversation that I need in my life." We want to give you some things to chew on. Maybe we're gonna highlight why you are attracted to toxic people. And hopefully how you can break the cycle. - Yeah, and we've got a second goal for the podcast as well. Maybe you are not the one who is attracted to toxic people, but you have friends who are or you've dated someone who is. This episode is for you. It's gonna give you insight on how to support those around you. - When we say you've dated someone who's attracted to toxic people, does that make you a toxic person? - Let's go back to goal number one. We want to give you some things to chew on about why you may be attracted to toxic people. - That's right. All right, okay, so right out the gate, I think it's important that we define what is toxic. - Yeah, exactly. And one of the things that we want to, before we go into the definition, one of the things we want to talk about is there's a difference between toxic and between normal, I'm a flawed human, I'm growing in my capacity for relationships. So if you hear some of these toxic definitions, don't immediately think like, oh no, like shots fired, they're calling me out. I am toxic, I'm always the problem. No, no, no, no. There is redemption laced all throughout this podcast. So babe, let's go ahead, tell them, how are we defining toxic? - Totally. - So toxic would be anything that involves manipulation, control, selfishness, emotional unavailability, et cetera. And I think it's also important to say that when something is truly toxic, there is no teachability or repentance. There might be talk of change, but there's not actions to back it up. - Yeah, and I would have to say, I want to come on the back side of that and say if you feel like maybe you do have some of these toxic traits and might identify as toxic, I want to say that the future is in your hands. There is hope for you. So I don't want you to read this and be like, oh no, I'm never gonna change. Like I'm stuck in a toxic pattern. No, there is certainly hope for you. But you have to want it. And I think the first thing is honesty. - That's right. - You have to be honest with yourself. You have to find yourself in this list, identify that this is me, and then work towards help and bring in some outside people. So I want to make that disclaimer. - Absolutely. And like Daniel said earlier, there's a difference between toxicity and a normal flaw that any relationship is gonna have to work through. Because newsflash relationships take a lot of work. - Yeah, they're not easy. So why don't we go into some common red flags of toxic people just so we make it really clear what it is that we're evaluating. - Yeah, and for those of you guys listening, we've actually identified six common red flags in toxic people. So as we're going through this list, we want to just remind you that these are patterns of behavior that consistently harm or manipulate others. And they're usually signs of a deeper issue that needs to be addressed. So number one, the first red flag that we want to talk about, the first red flag in toxic people is manipulation. - That's right. So toxic people will often use manipulation to control or influence others. And typically it's for their own benefit. - Right. - That may look like twisting your words to put words in your mouth using guilt to control or I see this relatively frequently in toxic relationships if they withhold affection to get what they want. So this could be someone goes quiet. Or I'm gonna ice them for a bit and just go quiet until they're begging for me to come back. - Let me say this, the scariest thing about manipulation is this is such a character trait of the enemy. - Go ahead. - The enemy, I mean, the enemy, the bedrock of Satan is manipulation, manipulating Adam and Eve, deceiving Adam and Eve, deceiving us with the idea of the promise of, oh, if you take this, it will bring you this, knowing that it shows up empty every time. And so I think if that is the essence of the way you approach relationships, I would be very concerned. - Absolutely. - I would take a big step back, a big pause and really seek healing in this area and be like, why am I like this? - Totally. - Why do I feel the need to manipulate? - And a lot of times when you're in the midst of a relationship and you say you encounter conflict, you know the moments that you're going toxic. - Yeah. - You know, like, unless you're just lying to you, you know, we do, we for sure know those moments. - Unless you're just lying to yourself, which is common. You'll know when you're playing it a little cold so that someone else comes in a little hotter. You know when you're playing games. - Yeah, for sure, for sure you are. Well, let's go on. Maybe we'll circle back to that a little bit later. - I love it. Common, the next common red flag in a toxic person. Number two is. - Yep, lack of accountability. - Yep, a toxic person is going to refuse to take responsibility for their actions. They're going to blame others. They're going to blame their circumstances. They're basically going to do whatever they can to avoid responsibility. - Right, and I think that if, you know, if being, if you're in a relationship and it's a healthy relationship, you should be able to lovingly confront one another. Hey, when you did this, it made me feel like that. Let's talk about it. This is not me attacking you. This is not me saying you're not good enough. This is not me saying I want to break up with you. This is just me letting you into my processing of when you do this, it made me feel like that. If you start a conversation like that and there is immediate pushback, that's a red flag. - Definitely. - If they cannot own up to the idea that maybe they were the calls of some hurt in your life and it was unjust, that's a huge red flag of maybe they're not willing to take accountability. - That's right, and this is what this sounds like. That's just how I am. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's a soft play version of it. - Yeah, sure, it's a soft play version or accusing someone to be being too sensitive when they do bring something. - When I think the other thing is, yeah, and what you're doing at that point is you're saying, no, I'm not the problem, you're the problem. When the reality is in relationships, we are both the problem. Like neither one of us are perfect. Now, in certain situations, obviously someone could be the inciting problem. - Definitely. - But what I'm not doing in this conversation is saying, I'm perfect, you're not, you're the problem. - That's right. - You know what I mean? - Yeah. - I think the other thing is if they're unwilling to have someone speak into their life who's a third party in an elevated position, like a mentor, a pastor, a leader in their life. I think anyone who's rejecting mentorship or leadership, that is like icing on the cake for how red this flag is. - I tell you what, I was talking to a team member of ours recently and she was saying that she came to realize what she is looking ultimately for in a partner is someone who's teachable. - Yeah, that's huge. - She was like, if someone can be teachable and submitted then they're trustworthy. - Right, exactly. - And so that would be the exact opposite of, (laughing) accountability. - Taking accountability. - That's it. Okay, number three, a toxic person might display extreme jealousy, try to control you in regards to who you're spending time with, what you wear, how you behave, et cetera. - Can I tell a funny story? - I'm terrified, but sure. - Like, let me tell you this, first off, I've come a long way. I think what you just said about teachability was my opt out, 'cause I certainly had some toxic traits. I was certainly attracted to toxicity, but one of the things is I was very teachable. So anyway, anytime I found a better way, I was very willing to submit to the process, own my mistakes, and grow through it. And I really think I speak for both of us when I say, I love our relationship. Like I love how we've been able to navigate, health and become better and better together. My story, I was dating this girl. I was kind of like in the music scene, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, I was just kind of almost more of a scene kid, and I was dating this girl who was a little preppier. I didn't want to, the things that I did for Christmas, I got her an emo girl starter kit and I went to hot topic and I got her like these black skinny jeans like a kiss like band t-shirt all this like like some vans I got her like all of this stuff. Why was I doing a jealousy and control. You know I'm trying to shape you into the person that I think you should be not the person that you are. Listen that was years ago I've grown so much. And I'm here to report that you have never once drug me into hot topic. But you know what I have done I have taken her to the vinyl section of many stores and like babe can I please get this vinyl. Oh my goodness. Do you need to cut that from the podcast? Absolutely not. Using credibility. No that's staying here's the deal. I think I think it's important to just stop and say right now that we are not people who have always had everything figured out. In fact I don't know that we have everything figured out today. Yeah exactly. But we have definitely experienced growth in areas of our relationship. Oh for sure and God has done so much in both of our lives. So this this is nothing but a story of redemption. That's right. Okay well lack of accountability jealousy and control. Do you want to go for number four? Yeah number four emotional abuse. You know this can really look like you know belittling the other person making making making you feel inferior putting you down subtly. You know a lot of people who deal with this they they would say something like I just joke a lot I just joke a lot. And you know what there's certainly people who do joke a lot. But I think there's I think you can feel if there's an undertone of I want to make me feel bigger than you. Yeah I want to establish dominance in this relationship. Right. And I certainly think that that's that's emotional abuse. Definitely. Number five would be love bombing. Yes. Love bomb. We don't we love a good love bomb. We love a good love bomb. No we don't love a good love bomb. We're not talking about honeymoon night love bomb. No we're not. So here's the deal at the beginning of a relationship a toxic person may overwhelm you with attention with gifts. And this creates an emotional dependence very quickly. But it also has the ability to fade as they begin to control and manipulate. Right. I want to actually give a small resource plug. Okay. Donald Miller, Christian Memoirist. Now now honestly he's a business guy. But he wrote a lot of Christian memoirs and he wrote a book called Scary Close. And he identified, wait a second. This he was a love bomber. He would he would form really fast relationships. He was super charming, overwhelmed them with like all this stuff. Make them dependent on him. And then he would immediately lose interest. And so I think that if you're if love bombing like struck a quarter in your life, I would maybe check out the book Scary Close by Donald Miller. It's a really good read. Yep. I love that. Number six. Disrespecting boundaries. Yeah. So toxic people do not respect personal, emotional or physical boundaries. If you're in a relationship with someone and you've had maybe you've had clear conversations and you're like these are my boundaries. And somehow that person finds a way to regularly go past the line to regularly violate the boundaries. There is more likely than not the chance that they are a toxic person. Yeah. And I also want to say that there's a difference between obviously whenever you get into a relationship, the pool for physical closeness is going to be there. I think there's a difference between we are fighting for purity and I'm fighting you to keep your hands off me. Yeah. It's because like one of them says we're in this together. This is difficult. We're going to work around this and figure out how we can stay pure. We're going to bring in accountability. We're going to talk about when we've made mistakes. Oh, sure. And then there's other people who it's like no one person is resolved in the boundaries and the other person is like I think my goal here is to just where you are. You know what I mean? And get my way. Yeah. Exactly. That would be the goal. I want to get my way. Yeah. It is a red flag nation. So those would be the six common red flags that you see in toxic people. I think it's important that we contrast this with just some normal flaws that every relationship could work through using good communication. Yeah. And I just want to run through those six one last time because I know we kind of talked through them. So it's number one manipulation. Number two, lack of accountability. Number three, jealousy and control. Number four, emotional abuse. Number five, love bombing and number six, disrespecting boundary. Hey, what's up guys? I want to interrupt real quick to tell you a little bit about date well date well as an online coaching program by moral revolution designed to help men and women build healthier relationships with a clear guided dating path, a supportive community and short focused videos answering common dating questions. You'll get practical advice and activation challenges that will encourage real growth. It's all about getting healthy, gaining clarity and stepping into dating with purpose and confidence. The program follows a simple three step process to help you break free from old patterns, understand yourself better and navigate dating with a new level of insight. You'll also become a part of a community of people who are walking a similar journey ready to encourage and support you as you move forward in your daily life. If you're ready to gain clarity and take a fresh approach to relationships, visit www.letstatewell.com to find out more back to the show. That's right. Okay, so what are the what are the just normal flaws that would be normal to go? I think number one and probably the most common is miscommunication. That's right. Here's the deal. Everyone. Everyone. In every relationship. All of them. That is that's going to exist for any amount of time. We just got started. We're in it for 70 years. That's right. Everyone is going to at some point misunderstand someone. They're going to communicate poorly. Their point is not going to get across maybe with the nicest tone or ex-poyancy. That does. It can lead to arguments. It can lead to conflict. But the reality is is miscommunication or communication in general can be worked on. Yeah, and it also doesn't have to spiral because what you'll see is sometimes something can start as a miscommunication and then spirals into a red flag. Miscommunication is like the gateway for what could turn into a red flag, but it doesn't have to be. That's right. And so I mean, like even yesterday, Ellison and I had a miscommunication, we're pretty clear communicators. We're pretty like we're honest and clear with one another. Yesterday we had a miscommunication. I was on Zillow. Yeah. And I saw this house and I was like, "Hey, there's this three bedroom, two bathroom house for like a million bucks." And she was like, "I just had no context." I was like, "Where? Why are we looking at Zillow? I'm confused." And I probably had a tone when I came back, came back as I just didn't understand. And she asked like, and maybe I was even more clear on the podcast because I was just mumbling, but she asked like some clarifying question and I was like, "What do you mean?" And so we got into this thing. I was basically just saying, "I love it when three two homes value for a lot because that means all of the three two homes are getting more valuable." I was like, "This is good." House values are good. We had not been talking about it. This was out of the blue. And here I am just confused. Where did this come from? What are we talking about? And that could have spiraled pretty quickly. We didn't spiral into a flag. We talked about it. Honestly, we prayed about it. We were like, we need to pray. We've been we've been snipping today. Yeah. We did have a we had a few back and forths yesterday that culminated in our Zillow misunderstanding. Right. Okay. Number two, a normal, a normal flaw in a relationship would be. Yeah. Yeah. Different conflict styles. That's right. This is super calm. I actually have to say this before we dive into it, whatever your style is, and we'll talk about it here in a second, whoever you marry, they're going to be the opposite. Like they're never the same. I don't think it's you're allowed to do that. I think every relationship is supposed to be opposite with the conflict style. That's supposed to be. I think that's how they supposed to they make relationships these days. Yeah. You know, the reality is maybe you're a person who prefers to just not let anything simmer. I want to talk about it right now. I want to fix it. I don't I don't want to let this sit at all. Let's take it head on. And you know what? There's other people who are like, I need a I need a minute. Yeah. I need to process that was so emotionally heavy for me that I need to step away. Exactly. And those difference and conflict styles can feel like a crisis. Right. When you are in the middle of conflict in a relationship. And the reality is is the longer a relationship goes on, the more you learn each other, the more that you come to value the person that you're in a relationship with and how they process the world, you can begin to make space for each other's conflict styles and try and meet in the middle. Right. And let me tell you what the multiplier on top of this is insecurity. If you're insecure, what you are looking for constantly is stability. Stability is good. But stability as an answer for insecurity is just a bandaid on a wound. Because we're allowed to have different conflict, different conflict styles and be sure to subscribe to our channel. secure to know that, hey, if Ellis needs to go and think about this, I can be secure that just because she's going to think about it doesn't mean our relationship is going with her. But insecure people are like, I have to fix this right now or I'm not okay. And so I think maturity and security says, you know what, you can do your thing. I'm gonna, I'm actually gonna, you know, go do my thing. We can come back, we can talk about it. As long as there is a moment for reconciliation, for comfort, conflict resolution, bringing things to the table and really like reaching a point where you can move forward. Also, it shouldn't take multiple days. It's not like, hey, circle back on Friday. We'll see if we're still good. No, definitely not. Okay, number three, just a normal flaw in a relationship, not necessarily a toxic trait. Personal habits that annoy you. You want to, you want to go into that way? I actually have nothing to say. I'm probably the least particular person I know. That's a lie. That's absolutely a lie. Yeah, personal habits that annoy you, which I actually, once again, I, you know, I don't want this to be just a all about us thing, but I celebrate this because Ellis and I have different lifestyles the way that the way that we were when we were single. And we've come together and really have compromised on these things. In the beginning, it feels really heavy. You know, and this can, this can be in dating relationships too. I know we're taking it from a marriage perspective. Once again, marriage is also a multiplier because people's habits don't really annoy you as much if you're going to your own home and sleeping that night. Right. But yeah, I think everyone has habits that are that are going to irritate their partner. We're talking about leaving dishes out, for giving, for getting detects back by the way. Wow, it seems like you were really just taking shots at me when you took these notes, huh? But yeah, we all have, we all have the way we do things. And I think one of the beauties of being in relationships is redefining what our habits are and making compromise. I think where this could get toxic is where it's like, oh no, my habit is like religion. You know, it is like law. It is like Jesus stacks the dishes like this. Yeah, in our marriage, Daniel realized pretty quickly that I am probably not going to get the dishes stacked the exact right way. But for us, it's a win if I get them in the dishwasher and he is more than, uh, more than I'm happy to arrange them. To go back and rearrange it. I like optimize the dishes. Everyone knows you got to optimize your dishes. If you're not optimizing your dishes, your wasting water, we live in California. We don't have enough water to waste. We can't be running the dishwasher twice a day because we stack them like Neanderthals or something. I'm joking. Okay, continue number four. Number four would be emotional baggage. So a lot of people come into relationships with their entire lives and experiences. And they bring them just pack them on up and they bring them to the table. And emotional baggage isn't always a red flag. Now if someone has undelt with issues that are leading to toxicity, that would be the red flag. Right. What's in these are gateways. Yes. Any of these can lead to red flags. That's right. But with healthy communication, you could work through a lot of these. And then number five, the fifth thing that's just just normal in a relationship. Occasional mood swings. And note that we said the word occasional. Right. This is not every day. Right. This is not I'm going to punish you with how I'm feeling. This is you know what I had an off day. Yeah. And yeah, I'm going to I'm going to work on communicating through you know what? And I'm going to shout out Ellis real quick. You know, because she doesn't have mood swings very often. She's a pretty steady eddy even keel girl. And I you know what? And I appreciate it. Some will call you a unicorn. I think that's offensive. You're more than a mystical animal. Oh my gosh. Thank you. Yeah. So me however, I do have some mood swings. Daniel had some mood swings. And it has it has improved. Here's the deal. These I don't know what you meant by that. I'm playing these are the occasional things that you would experience in a normal relationship. Right. Not necessarily toxic traits. And so I think it's important that we laid the foundation between this is toxic. This isn't necessarily toxic. But is a gateway to toxic. But is a gateway to toxicity. That's right. And so you know, we've spent a good portion of time so far talking specifically about toxic people. But the title of the episode isn't necessarily about the toxic people. Yeah. It's about those who are attracted to toxic people. Right. Why? Especially after you listen to this list of traits about a toxic person. This is what a toxic person does. Etc. Why are we still attracted to people like this? Yeah. Well, I think one of the reasons can be psychological and emotional factors because you know, so much can just be traced back to your family of origin. You know, God's design was for you to be raised in a stable home environment with a mom and dad that loved God. They loved each other. They loved you. They had healthy conflict resolution. They were good communicators. And that through that family, you would develop a healthy attachment from the time you were born and through your most foreign old years. Yep. You know, the reality is is when you are raised in a family that is according to God's design, your brain is wired for connection. Right. According to God's design. But the opposite can be said as well. If you're raised in a family that has that has any of these traits that we talked about or it's just like unstable or has bad conflict resolution or there's a ton of yelling. If there's a ton of icing. Yeah. If there's a ton of just chaos in general. Right. If you have parents who had, you know, some pretty severe character flaws. Right. Um, you know, broken, broken families. Broken families. Lended families. A lot of times those say, well, and not all blended families. Not all blended families, but it could be. Certainly. Um, but those types of environments are wouldn't necessarily be what God had intended from the beginning. Right. And can wire you as someone who is being raised in his learning relationship in those environments. Can wire you for chaos rather than for peace. Right. And it reminds me of, Ellis and I were talking the other day about these babies who, and this is kind of off the beaten path, but it'll, it'll make sense. These babies who, who, whenever their mother is pregnant, they're very addicted to drugs. Whenever these babies are born, they actually have a certain co-dependency to those same drugs. So in the, you know, in the, the stage early stages of their life, they have to be weaned off of them. Yeah. They'll go through withdrawals. Yeah. Because the babies will go through withdrawals. That doesn't mean that those kids can't grow up to be healthy and non-drug dependent, but in a, in a, in a, maybe a less severe case, that's how some of us are with relationships. Maybe because there was some chaos in our home, we kind of, we kind of are attuned to that. That actually feels comfortable. It feels safe. It's the, what do they call it? It's like the crazy I know, you know what I mean? And so there's a, there's a sense of comfort that can come from that. That's right. And so a lot of times this looks like if you, if you have some past trauma in your life, that you haven't necessarily walked through healing for, if you've experienced unmet emotional needs that you're not sure how to really get met. If you have undelt with insecurities, any of these things have the potential to rewire our brains for chaos rather than for peace. It actually wires us to look for toxic rather than healthy. Right. Right. For sure. And actually this is something that I know we kind of alluded to it earlier and largely it was joking. But this is something that, that I dealt with is I was, I was attracted to toxic people. And as Ellis and I and really kind of processing this with our team, we're talking about it. I just started, um, I started trying to process out loud. Why I did the things that I did or why I was attracted to the people I was attracted to. And then ultimately I ended up with Ellis and Ellis is very healthy. I would say relatively healthy. She comes from a very stable family. My family was also stable. But you know, here's the truth. I mean, my dad was was orphaned as a child. So he didn't know how to maybe father in the most connected way. He was there, which I appreciate. I did the best that he could do with what he had. And I think that your story is, you know, exhibit a of someone who was raised in a home with two loving parents. Right. And even in that dynamic, you experienced some disconnection that wired you for chaos. Right. Exactly. Um, and so one of the things that I realized is that toxic felt safe for me because at the end of the day, I knew it had no longevity. It's like if, if I knew that a relationship ultimately wouldn't work out, it felt like my guard could be down. But what was interesting is I would experience these emotional highs. while being in relationship with people who I knew could never love me back. It's like my taste was attuned for always striving for something that was impossible to achieve rather than settling into something where we can grow a sequoia tree together over years of just taking care of our hearts and our relationships. And so, you know, I think that that's what I realize, is I realize it's easy to be vulnerable with someone who I know there's no future here or this is safe because it has no future. And, you know, what's interesting is that, and if you jive with that, if that makes sensing your brain, I kind of want to share with you a little bit of my experience at the beginning of LSNI's relationship because on paper, I knew that Ellis was everything and more. Not just you check the boxes, it's like you check all the boxes and then you scribbled in the blank and wrote in the margins and it just like made complete sense. The other thing is our community looked at us and it made complete sense. You know, the leaders in our life, everything in our life pointed towards, "Hey, this is a great, very potentially God-ordained relationship where you guys would work so well together and it was difficult for me because she was so stable." - Yeah, I also think it's interesting, you know, when you're in relationships with toxic people, the highs are very high and the lows are very low. And your heart, your mind, your nervous system, I mean, every part of you is wired to crave the high highs and even the low lows evoke, you know, evoke something. - It's where we write our best songs. It's like, baby, we've got a banger coming up right here. - That's right. And you almost, because you're wired for it, you can kind of get addicted to those high highs and the low lows. - It's kind of like I say, baby, people don't go to Disney World for the T-Cups. We want the roller coasters. - That's it. And so when you're looking for the roller coaster, stability almost seems scarier than anything else. And I think in our case, we had to make some decisions to move forward on wisdom, on logic, because of why is council? Sure, we had moments of like, "I love you, I'm elated, I know that this is special." But that reservation in your heart, because it wasn't volatile, really was more terrifying than if it was volatile. - I also had moments where it's like, "I want to run." - Yeah. - I don't want to be here right now, 'cause it's so scary. - Right. - And it doesn't feel comfortable. - Yeah. - Which I think, you know, in my earlier years, I might have chalked that up to, "Oh, I don't have peace." And sometimes I didn't, I feel like God was really clear with me at times on who I should or should date. But I think that, you know, I had to transcend my nervous system and go into wisdom. And the other thing is, if you're 20, don't take this to the bank and marry someone, I had done my due diligence. - That's right, didn't know what's, didn't know what's 33 when we got married. - Yeah, I was 33 when we got married. So I had been single a long time. I had been single a long time, long enough to look at myself and have an honest evaluation of, "Oh, I see the pattern. Okay, how are we gonna fix this? How are we gonna own up to it?" And at the end of the day, we did it afraid and I'm so glad that we did, because almost three years later, what we have is so special. And I think that we're gonna be able to really maybe help a lot of people who are experiencing this and maybe have prolonged singleness due to fear. - That's good. Well, why don't we-- - Or toxic attraction. - Yeah. Well, I think it would be good if we pivoted the conversation a little bit and talked about some examples that we see in scripture of times that people were attracted to toxic people and where that led. - Right, I think the first one that we can see and talk about is we've got Samson and Delilah. If you look, and this is in Judges chapter 16, we know that Samson was called by God. So by the way, you can't say, "Oh, just because I'm called by God "doesn't mean I'm toxic," because that's not true. Or you're wired for toxicity. Because we see that-- - Literally from births. - Yeah. - I mean, he was called by God from the beginning. - Yeah, Samson was certainly wired for chaos that we don't know why. I mean, he seems to have a good family of origin. But, you know, I think the enemy has ways of sneaking in and creating that appetite for chaos inside of us. But you can't say that Samson wasn't toxic because every red flag was available in their relationship. - You can't say that Delilah was talked. Samson was attracted to-- - Yeah, exactly. Delilah was toxic because she's like, "Hey, it's not that I want to betray your big. " Number one, she pressured him. She's like, "I want you to tell me the secret to your strength." And he had a boundary. - Yeah. - And one of his boundaries where I'm not going to tell anyone. You see him compromising on his boundaries. The second thing that you see is whenever-- whenever he was manipulative because she would, you know, essentially ask, "Hey, would you tell me?" And he would lie to her. He would straight up be like, "Oh yeah, man. "Like if you do X, Y, and Z, like all of you is all my strength." But then she was pouty. - Yeah. - So she was-- So there's toxicity on both sides. - Totally. - I don't think we can just double down on Delilah. I think we have to look at the relationship as a whole, which was probably why there was just some psycho-elation in their emotions. - Yep. - I'm sure they were riding on a roller coaster, for sure. Here's a deal. You know, not only Samson, but I think we see someone who's attracted to toxicity in King Solomon. - Oh yeah. - Because-- And let's talk about that. King Solomon is the son of King David. - Right. - I mean, his father is literally the man after God's own heart. Now, King David had his own issues. We can see through Scripture. He was, you know, passive when it came to his family life. Solomon's mother was Bathsheba. - You can't-- - You're compromising with the sexuality. - That's very true. And at the same time, Solomon was a man of God. - Right. - He was the wisest man who ever lived. And at some point, we start to see moments of compromise. - What I think is really cool about this is I think that the Lord was certainly speaking into Solomon's character much before it was actually an issue. Because Solomon is the writer of the book of Proverbs. And Proverbs 423 says, "Guard your heart above all else for it determines the course of your life." And it's interesting that the Lord was divinely speaking wisdom that Solomon would need to navigate his life of calling and royalty. And I think Solomon had a lack of awareness, maybe that this is something I need to receive into my heart rather than I'm going to write this into a best-selling book and, you know, build temples and all the things that he accomplished. - It's very true. I mean, you know, Scripture talks about in First Kings when it discusses Solomon and his many wives and his hundreds of concubines that he did not follow the Lord completely. - Right. - No, it doesn't. That's literally what says. It says he did not follow the Lord completely-- - As his father David. - As his father David had done. And it's absolutely wild because it doesn't say that Solomon didn't follow the Lord. It said that he didn't follow the Lord completely. - And that is such a key when it comes to why are we attracted to toxicity? - Right, exactly. - Well, maybe there's areas of your heart that you have held back from the Lord. - You left unguarded. You allowed the enemy to deceive you. You allowed bitterness to creep in. You allowed unforgiveness to creep in and undelt with. Your heart went unguarded. - Right, exactly. - And therefore you couldn't give it to God completely. - Yeah. So you're right. But I think we just need to learn to find our identity in Christ. And you know, I think what we see is when we have a high value for ourselves, we're not going to compromise in what we're looking for in a relationship. - That's so true because you'll find that people who have high self-esteem are not even going to entertain the games and the, you know, the unhealthy patterns that happen in relationships. So let's talk about this. How do we break the cycle? - Yeah, well, we're going to start with some practical steps. I think number one, I'm going to say this, my mentor, probably the most powerful thing that my mentor ever taught me. As he said, the hardest thing for people to do is to be honest with themselves. And you think, oh, no, that's not me. I'm honest with myself. No, you're not. You lie to yourself. We all lie to ourselves. But I think a mature, a mature believer in Christ can be like, the first thing that we want to do is we want to recognize and acknowledge the toxic patterns that we might have. And we just want to own them. - That we might have or that we might even be attracted to. - True. - Yeah. - Honestly, very true. - Exactly. If you are attracted to someone who is toxic, it is a flag waving that's saying, there's something fractured inside of me that is willing to settle for something that is toxic. - Right, it's something that certainly needs to be addressed. - That's right, and how can I bring that to the surface? I would also say that seeking counsel from trusted mentors, pastors, Christian counselors, etc. People who are going to tell you the truth, who are going to help you bring those patterns to the surface, receive healing for, you know, when did this pattern start? What was the first time you felt this way? What led you down this road? Let's get healing from that first moment so that we could start bringing healing into the pattern overall. - Right, and I think something that I did is, whenever Ellis and I started dating and I recognized, this is right, but this is difficult. I very much took action. I did. I got a Christian counselor. I started seeing him weekly. At some point, I enrolled in on-site week-long therapy program. - He went to therapy camp? - Yeah, I called it therapy camp. And then I had a group text with my group that I went through with that, which was, it was incredible. It was five or six days, absolutely no phone, no connection to the outside world, alone with your group to process the things in your life. And I came out the other side of that, incrementally better. Now I'll say this, nothing is your savior except for Jesus. So I cannot do my counselor and say, "Hey, thanks for what you've done. I cannot do my on-site experience and say that. I cannot do some of the books that were breakthrough, some of the messages that I listened to. But at the end of the day, I really partnered with the Lord and exhausted the resources available to claw my way out of my attraction to toxicity." - I also think it would be really helpful for someone who is attracted to toxicity. To sit alone with the Lord, like Daniel said, he left his phone for a week, but just leave your phone in another room. - Right, truly. - Sit by yourself with the Lord. - It's a lot of processing that needs to happen. - That's right. And ask why? What in me is attracted to someone who is toxic or has toxic behaviors? - Right. - And what is it about me that is attracted to them? And how can I move forward, setting healthy boundaries? - And let the Lord speak to you, because everyone's journey is going to be different. - Yeah. - The next thing that you should do is you should set healthy boundaries to protect your emotional and spiritual health. You need to recognize that, hey, if I do this, it leads to that. You need to put up a boundary that says, well, I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to go there. I'm not going to, you know, maybe it's even, I'm not going to talk to this person. - I'm not going to entertain this. - Yeah, of course. And it could be so many things, so many things that you can put boundaries around that really are just going to make, it's going to position you for healing. - That's right. - And I think at the end of the day, this is, you're really an explorer. And you're exploring, you're charting a new way forward for emotional health in your life. And I think about whenever Lewis and Clark found the West, you know what I mean? And they went through all the treks and trails and everything to discover the, you know, the Pacific coast. But no one would have taken their exact journey. The other explorers didn't take their journey. And so I think we're all on this journey to find the proverbial Pacific coast, which is an emotional health, a matured appetite for stability and godliness. And really being able to refine our old taste and toxicity into something that you can build a future with. - Yeah, I also want to take a moment to speak to the people who are like, you know what, I'm not attracted to toxic people, but I have dated people who are attracted to toxic people or I have friends in my life who are attracted to toxic people. And I just don't understand. - Send them the podcast, baby. (laughing) Let's do it. - Yeah, I just don't understand why they keep dating people who are so obviously bad for them. - Right. - Yeah, I think, you know, if you're in that situation where it's your friends, if it is a relationship that has good relational equity and you can be honest, I would say it's your responsibility as a friend to be honest, not to degrade the person that they're in a relationship with, not to just trash them, but to say, hey, I've noticed some things, I'm a little concerned and how can I be a good friend to you in this area? I would say that if you are dating someone who is attracted to toxic people, that's a bit of a different situation, which obviously, you know, Daniel and I have shared a little bit of our story on today's episode where I was in a situation where I was dating someone who had previously been attracted to toxic people and who was having a difficult time - Acclimating to our relationship because it was healthy. - Right. - And I would say this, I knew that I could keep putting one foot in front of the other in our relationship as long as he was working toward health. - And I was also in the season, I would say it was a pretty good communicator as scary as it was to be like, hey, I'm feeling this, I'm not going anywhere, I'm not running, I'm not doing this, but I do wanna let you know that I'm feeling, I'm feeling some anxiety right now. - That's right. And conversely, if he had not been in a place to take accountability for his own, his own patterns, his own thought processes and just the things that were holding him back in our relationship, if he was continuing to just allow those things to hold him back and never able to move forward, then it would have been time for me to say, you know what, it seems like you are gonna have to do the next part of this journey with you and the Lord because I'm not your savior. - Right. - As healthy as I am, I cannot save you, only Jesus can do that. - Right. Well, we thank God that he let us on this pattern, we now have a beautiful marriage. And I really, I think I say that with all honesty, I'm really excited. I'm grateful for what we've built. I'm excited for what we're building. I'm very grateful that God has done so much healing in my life and I know it's only made you and us stronger. So I wanna encourage you, healing is possible. No matter where you find yourself today, there's always hope for a better tomorrow. If you've been in an extended season of singleness and you are maybe have found yourself attracted to toxic people, your taste can change. There can be healing and you can find something beautiful in what might be considered the mundane. Like I said, might be considered because stable people are not gonna have the same allure necessarily that others will. So. - When that's your taste. - Right, when that's your taste. Exactly. - I also wanna speak to the person who's listening to this and you're like, you know what, I'm not just attracted to toxic people, I am the toxic person. Like I have these tendencies and I want you to know that there is absolutely nothing that's too hard for God. There is nothing that he can't heal. There's nothing that he can't resurrect. There's nothing that he can't bring wholeness and health into if you surrender that to him. And so we're gonna close today's episode, just in prayer for people who are experiencing attraction to toxic people who have realized the list of this podcast, they are toxic people. - Yeah. - And move forward. So, babe, do you wanna close this in prayer? - Yeah, I would love to pray. Dear Heavenly Father, we thank you so much for this day. God, I just ask that you would step into each and every single person's relationships and you would just shine light on any areas that might need healing. God, if there are areas where maybe we've displayed some toxicity, God, I pray that you would lead us into a place of health. God, I pray that you would position mentors and counselors and pastors and friends around us who can just rally around our desire for healthy relationships. And God, that we would find you to be faithful in that process. Father, God, I pray that as we're in our process of healing, God, that we would recognize that you are with us, that we're not alone in this process and that your plan for us is so great. And God, I just pray that for those who are on the back half of their healing journey, God, I pray that you would begin introducing healthy relationships into their life. God, I just pray that you would begin making connections where people have felt maybe a little hopeless in their dating life. And God, I pray that maybe people who are journeying out of an attraction to toxicity would be open to giving new relationships time that as they're in their process of acquiring a taste for health. God, I pray that they would be, they would not just shut out relationships that don't immediately have the electric pool behind it. But God, they would see, hey, maybe can I grow my teeth? for the finer things of life and that stability and health. And so Father God, I just pray that we would partner with you today in our relationships. We would grow in health and we would see so many beautiful families as a result of this new direction we're taking. We love you and we thank you in Jesus name, amen. - Amen, awesome guys. Well, we love you guys and we'll catch you on the next episode. - See you next time.