Speaker 1There was a transition from a new national account manager to the next national account manager. And this executive at Verizon asked an incredible question. So they were doing the handoff. And the executive looked at the new person and said, why don't we start this meeting by you telling me what you know about us? Holy smokes. Guys, it was a disaster. I mean, it was a great teaching moment. It was a disaster. And forevermore in that company, they used that thinking of at any point in time, if a customer asked me, before we get started, why don't you just tell me what you know about me or what you know about my company?
Speaker 2Welcome to the Revenue Builders Podcast, a weekly show featuring B2B sales leaders and executives. Hosted by five-time CRO John McMahon and Force Management co-founder John Kaplan, the show takes guests in the barrel, behind the scenes with the people who've been there, done that, and seen the results. Revenue Builders covers best practices for scaling and growing your business while sharing the pitfalls to avoid.
Speaker 3Today, we're joined by Matt Firmino, who's the Chief Revenue Officer at Fable Security. It's an innovative cybersecurity company using AI and behavioral science to help organizations. Matt has a lot of experience in enterprise software sales leadership. He's held senior leadership positions at Astronomer, Starburst, and Cyber Reason. Throughout Matt's career, he's built and led high-performing sales organization. He's particularly passionate about recruiting, developing, and coaching great sales talent. So today, we're going to dig into some of the most important challenges, and we're going to start by focusing on some of the most important ones. We'll discuss how AI, if used incorrectly, could actually make salespeople less effective than more productive. We'll also explore why characteristics that make someone successful at a startup could be very different from those characteristics required at a large enterprise software company. We'll also talk about the importance of creating a development culture and why great managers coach rather than simply tell. So Matt has some stories. I hope you have a strong perspective on these subjects. I'm looking forward to digging into them. Hey, Matt, welcome to Revenue Builders. So, hey, Matt, good to see you again. Hope you're staying strong. You're getting some workouts in? Yeah, I'm trying, I'm trying.
Speaker 4Not the weight I used to throw around, not like Cap, but the glory muscles. I can lift
Speaker 1weight off my chest. Johnny just wants me to lift my own body weight. I can lift my own body weight with, you know, pull ups and stuff like that.
Speaker 3True test of strength, true test of strength, Matt. It is, it is all you need. Yeah. Hey, Matt. So what's on everybody's mind is AI, you know, so and you've expressed some concerns to me when we spoke earlier that AI could actually probably hurt the development or the effectiveness of, you know, enterprise sellers. Can you talk a little bit about what you see? What are some of your concerns are?
Speaker 4Yeah, I mean, I look, I think AI can do a lot of great things for the go to market team. But in particular, I see very often, instead of it being an accelerant for the preparation, it's people are using it to sort of replace their understanding. And they're not going through the process of actually doing the research and figuring out what these companies do. So, you know, an example is I do a lot of research. I do a lot of, you know, we do PG Tuesdays here with the team and we come and I see these great prep docs, I see these great value pyramids, I see these great plans for who they're going to call and why. And I'll simply ask them, you know, what does this company do? And a lot of times you'd be surprised they don't even, you know, they haven't even gone through the process of just understanding how this company makes money, what products are growing the fastest, where's their, you know, big revenue drive. Or what are the crown jewels, you know, are they a profitability company or a growth company? So they, you know, it goes from people that are, I think, AEs that are having insight when they come into these meetings versus people that just have information. And you know, this, I think this whole podcast is about being audible ready. And I think if you're going to go into a meeting at some point, you're going to actually have to talk to someone, not read, you know, your, your prep doc know what you're doing and you get the wrong person. You're going to, you're going to get relegated to who you sound like really quickly, or you're
Speaker 3going to get thrown out of the room. So you really kind of talking a little bit about critical thinking, right? You know, it's more than just, you know, having AI print out what the customer does, but can you truly understand and gain insights from what the, the LLM tells you about the customer's business so you can walk into the customer and have a compelling point of view is that's what I hear you saying.
Speaker 4Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, that's a great point. I think that's a great point. Yeah. Yeah. Especially if you're with an executive, it's going to be pretty hard to stay relevant in that conversation. So, you know, I think it's just something.
Speaker 3How do you, as a sales leader, like you said, you go into these meetings and you can see these great documents that they produce, but how do you quickly assess whether or not they have a critical understanding of what the customer actually, what that business actually does and where some of the potential pains are that your product solves?
Speaker 4Yeah, I think it starts with, like I said, asking a bunch of basic questions to see if they even understand. Like, what will you ask? Tell me what you'll ask them. Yeah. I'll ask them, you know, tell me, you know, what, what part of the business drives the most revenue? What, what business unit, you know, drives the most revenue, what product line, what's the fastest growing part of the business, right? Cause I want to see where are they investing in? How do they grow in general? Do they grow through M&A? Do they grow, you know, through new product introduction? Are they profitability focused? Are they, you know, are they revenue focused? These are, are they growth focused? I should say like understanding that even can start to help you figure out how do I want to frame some questions? And then I'll start going through, you know, when they go through their hypothesis, they go through their people. I'll just start asking, you know, so what? And it's really just without being a jerk about it, you could pretty much, so what, who cares your way to, you know, poking a lot of holes in people's hypotheses pretty quickly. And then you just got to start to role play with people. You just got to start to put them in the position of, all right, hey, now for us, we sell to a lot of security leaders. I'm the CISO. I run the SOC. Here you go. We're on the phone. Tell me what's going to happen because after that first statement, I'm going to start asking questions and you can't necessarily script where that goes, but your preparation can make you comfortable to go in any direction and bring you back to the value prop that we solve.
Speaker 3So then the next time they show up with you? Have you seen them take it further where they do have actual insights into the customer's business where they think they can start the conversation and then lead the conversation to where they want to take the conversation?
Speaker 4Yeah, I think after a few of those sessions, they tend to know where I'm going to go ahead of time, which is really what I want. So they start to come in prepared and you can definitely see them now, especially for what we do. We sell a very disruptive product in a market that's been sold historically one way. So if you if you come in and just let the buyer think of you the way the old processes have been done, you're you're cooked. So you really have to come in with a strong hypothesis. So we'll just go test that a bunch of times and they'll start to come in with with better preparation. there's always, there's never a perfect prep meeting. And, you know, like Tyson always says, you have, you know, you can have a great plan until you get punched in the face. Right. So, but the more, you know, and the more you've internalized, then, you know, you're, you can at least come back to what you need to really quickly. And I think what I've seen probably most is that there's a lot of subconscious discovery that happens where they, without this preparation, I don't think the reps realize it, but they're taking discovery just to a place that they're comfortable with. And they're missing actually bigger parts of more high impact pain because they're not comfortable. Even though we solve this problem, they don't really know it. They don't know the business problem. So they sort of unconsciously stare away from it. So I've seen that get a little bit better where they're comfortable going to maybe more depths, knowing they can kind of bring it back to where they need to go.
Speaker 3That's interesting. And why were they scared of going to that place where you know you can really solve big problems? Why were they a little hesitant to go there?
Speaker 4Yeah, I think it's, you know, some of it is probably enablement on our side to make sure that, you know, they're comfortable with the more complex
Speaker 3problems that we solve. I see what you're touching on, right? If a rep is not developed, if they don't really understand the product and they don't understand the pain of the customer and the differentiators, so they're not comfortable talking about it, then they definitely shy away that's whether it's ai or not ai yep yep reps will shy away from stuff that they don't fully understand they just won't talk about it because they don't want to get embarrassed
Speaker 1exactly exactly i think one of the things that reps we all do we hesitate to tell somebody or ask somebody about negative things so in the industry it's called negative consequences and what we what we find a lot is that people don't you know people aren't comfortable with telling somebody that they suck and so it's a mindset that around discovery and here's where i think ai is very powerful because you can ask as a thought partner i i like to talk about ai as a thought partner not as replacing my thoughts but as a thought partner you know we started this with like you know what are you asking them to do i i like to ask about you know when you say what do they do i like to say hey explain it to me like i'm a sixth grader that's actually one of my prompts explain to me what this customer does as if i'm a sixth grader and i'm like hey explain to me what this customer does as if i'm a sixth grader explain to me what this customer does as if i'm a sixth grader what are the things that they do what are the things that they do what are the things that they do really really well what are the things they really really well what are the things they really really well what are the things they struggling with so what if they struggling with so what if they struggling with so what if they can't do this or can't do that in their can't do this or can't do that in their can't do this or can't do that in their industry why is that a bad thing and industry why is that a bad thing and industry why is that a bad thing and you'll see that the thought partner you'll see that the thought partner you'll see that the thought partner is so comfortable in giving me these is so comfortable in giving me these is so comfortable in giving me these answers it's almost like a good practice answers it's almost like a good practice answers it's almost like a good practice because the thought partner says well because the thought partner says well because the thought partner says well the connection between that the connection between that the connection between that problem problem problem and that outcome for the customers and that outcome for the customers and that outcome for the customers typically around this typically around this typically around this i think that's the number one reason why i think that's the number one reason why i think that's the number one reason why people hesitate is they don't know how a people hesitate is they don't know how a people hesitate is they don't know how a customer is going to customer is going to customer is going to take it well in the enablement piece take it well in the enablement piece take it well in the enablement piece that you guys are talking about that you guys are talking about that you guys are talking about whether you ask the question or not whether you ask the question or not whether you ask the question or not they're struggling and the vast majority they're struggling and the vast majority they're struggling and the vast majority of people struggle in that area and of people struggle in that area and of people struggle in that area and that's where i think ai that's where i think ai that's where i think ai is powerful also where you're going to
Speaker 3is powerful also where you're going to is powerful also where you're going to get your sales managers to be get your sales managers to be get your sales managers to be comfortable is really what you're comfortable is really what you're comfortable is really what you're saying saying saying right oh yeah yeah but even though are right oh yeah yeah but even though are right oh yeah yeah but even though are your sales leaders comfortable but even
Speaker 1your sales leaders comfortable but even your sales leaders comfortable but even the reps like johnny okay so you i like the reps like johnny okay so you i like the reps like johnny okay so you i like what you're saying because we talked what you're saying because we talked what you're saying because we talked about two things we talked about the about two things we talked about the about two things we talked about the impact of the reps and then we talked impact of the reps and then we talked impact of the reps and then we talked about like impact to the managers like about like impact to the managers like about like impact to the managers like the challenge i see the challenge i see the challenge i see is like rev ops has to be really really is like rev ops has to be really really is like rev ops has to be really really good at the cadence good at the cadence good at the cadence like what is matt going to expect like like what is matt going to expect like like what is matt going to expect like when i get when i get when i get with reps and i'm doing a deal review with reps and i'm doing a deal review with reps and i'm doing a deal review i'm looking at i want to know the origin i'm looking at i want to know the origin i'm looking at i want to know the origin of the deal of the deal of the deal i always ask internally here at force i always ask internally here at force i always ask internally here at force management give me the origin of the management give me the origin of the management give me the origin of the deal i want to know how we got involved deal i want to know how we got involved deal i want to know how we got involved in this in this in this with this customer experience so they with this customer experience so they with this customer experience so they know know know and i'm going to be coming talking about and i'm going to be coming talking about and i'm going to be coming talking about that i want to know the biggest that i want to know the biggest that i want to know the biggest business issue facing the customer business issue facing the customer business issue facing the customer and i want to know how we're influencing and i want to know how we're influencing and i want to know how we're influencing their decision criteria with our their decision criteria with our their decision criteria with our differentiation differentiation differentiation i want to know a lot more but these i want to know a lot more but these i want to know a lot more but these three three three are the minimum expectation that we are the minimum expectation that we are the minimum expectation that we start a review with start a review with start a review with and so like matt i was going to ask you and so like matt i was going to ask you and so like matt i was going to ask you with all these things that you how do with all these things that you how do with all these things that you how do you precondition the sales organization you precondition the sales organization you precondition the sales organization with the minimum expectation of what with the minimum expectation of what with the minimum expectation of what you're going to be asking them you're going to be asking them you're going to be asking them and you know how does that and you know how does that and you know how does that how is that helped or or uh how is that helped or or uh how is that helped or or uh hindered hindered hindered by ai
Speaker 4yeah i think you you make a great point yeah i think you you make a great point yeah i think you you make a great point cap that's that's i think the superpower cap that's that's i think the superpower cap that's that's i think the superpower of ai when it comes to go to market and of ai when it comes to go to market and of ai when it comes to go to market and to sellers so we've we actually have a to sellers so we've we actually have a to sellers so we've we actually have a pretty mature pretty mature pretty mature um you know go to market team that does um you know go to market team that does um you know go to market team that does a lot with ai and so we have a lot of ai a lot with ai and so we have a lot of ai a lot with ai and so we have a lot of ai role plays a lot of prompts a lot of the role plays a lot of the role plays a lot of the persona tied to real high impact time persona tied to real high impact time persona tied to real high impact time based pain based pain based pain and then tie that to ideally a number of and then tie that to ideally a number of and then tie that to ideally a number of uh unique differentiators that we have uh unique differentiators that we have uh unique differentiators that we have so we can set the traps to not just tell so we can set the traps to not just tell so we can set the traps to not just tell them hey you need these features but them hey you need these features but them hey you need these features but get them to come to their own conclusion get them to come to their own conclusion get them to come to their own conclusion oh yeah actually you know what we really oh yeah actually you know what we really oh yeah actually you know what we really need we need this and this oh it's need we need this and this oh it's need we need this and this oh it's interesting you say that that's you interesting you say that that's you interesting you say that that's you know we solve this problem that way so know we solve this problem that way so know we solve this problem that way so there's a lot that you can do there i there's a lot that you can do there i there's a lot that you can do there i think to enable think to enable think to enable and then i think john to your point and then i think john to your point and then i think john to your point you really got to make sure that that you really got to make sure that that you really got to make sure that that the front lines the front lines the front lines know how to to take that know how to to take that from you know preparation into the from you know preparation into the from you know preparation into the actual deal reviews into the you know actual deal reviews into the you know actual deal reviews into the you know forecast calls into the in the meetings forecast calls into the in the meetings forecast calls into the in the meetings with them by the way because with them by the way because with them by the way because you know they should they should be you know they should they should be you know they should they should be leading from the front and being in leading from the front and being in leading from the front and being in those meetings too and modeling a lot of those meetings too and modeling a lot of those meetings too and modeling a lot of this behavior yeah but a lot of times
Speaker 3this behavior yeah but a lot of times this behavior yeah but a lot of times those first line second line leaders those first line second line leaders they've never done this on their own you they've never done this on their own you they've never done this on their own you know know know yep yep yeah it's true they might not yep yep yeah it's true they might not yep yep yeah it's true they might not have ever done research or they did a have ever done research or they did a have ever done research or they did a little bit of research but now you're little bit of research but now you're little bit of research but now you're asking them to do research with with ai asking them to do research with with ai asking them to do research with with ai and now you should be able to gain and now you should be able to gain and now you should be able to gain really deep insights about that customer really deep insights about that customer really deep insights about that customer and where you want to take the and where you want to take the and where you want to take the conversation
Speaker 1conversation conversation yeah and i think the coaching johnny yeah and i think the coaching johnny yeah and i think the coaching johnny that's got to take place at the that's got to take place at the that's got to take place at the frontline level frontline level frontline level is that with access with the information is that with access with the information is that with access with the information we've never been we've never been we've never been in a situation in our lives with in a situation in our lives with in a situation in our lives with technology to have better access to technology to have better access to technology to have better access to information it's just incredible the use information it's just incredible the use information it's just incredible the use of that information of that information of that information we often talk about on the podcast we often talk about on the podcast we often talk about on the podcast johnny johnny johnny use that information to be interested use that information to be interested use that information to be interested versus interesting versus interesting versus interesting what i find in this ai era that we're in what i find in this ai era that we're in what i find in this ai era that we're in there are so we're access to so much there are so we're access to so much there are so we're access to so much information information information that we almost get people like in a that we almost get people like in a that we almost get people like in a court of law court of law court of law saying i read this and this is what you saying i read this and this is what you saying i read this and this is what you said and this and so therefore i have said and this and so therefore i have said and this and so therefore i have this conclusion this conclusion this conclusion and they're trying to impress the and they're trying to impress the and they're trying to impress the customer customer customer about they're trying to be interesting to about they're trying to be interesting to about they're trying to be interesting to the customer the customer the customer about what we know about your about what we know about your about what we know about your organization organization organization versus using that information to be versus using that information to be versus using that information to be audible ready audible ready audible ready to look for nuances to what's different to look for nuances to what's different to look for nuances to what's different about what this customer's saying than about what this customer's saying than what i observed what i observed what i observed in in in my preparation my preparation my preparation it's really really important i see some it's really really important i see some it's really really important i see some reps that do such a great job in reps that do such a great job in reps that do such a great job in discovery discovery discovery but they utilize that discovery to tell but they utilize that discovery to tell but they utilize that discovery to tell the customer what they've learned
Speaker 4the customer what they've learned the customer what they've learned yeah i think it's really dangerous there yeah i think it's really dangerous there yeah i think it's really dangerous there because because because the thing is i i've been saying this the thing is i i've been saying this the thing is i i've been saying this a lot lately but it's almost like it's a lot lately but it's it's almost like it's a lot lately but it's it's almost like it's creating a new seller deficit creating a new seller deficit creating a new seller deficit disorder disorder disorder where you sound like you know my where you sound like you know my where you sound like you know my business but you actually don't but you business but you actually don't but you business but you actually don't but you sound like it because sound like it because sound like it because you know you've got the research and you know you've got the research and you know you've got the research and then you sound like everyone else then you sound like everyone else then you sound like everyone else because everyone else has that same because everyone else has that same because everyone else has that same access to those same prompts access to those same prompts access to those same prompts yes yes yes 50 reps have come in and said the same 50 reps have come in and said the same 50 reps have come in and said the same thing to me so you know how do you
Speaker 3thing to me so you know how do you thing to me so you know how do you differentiate there if you were going to differentiate there if you were going to differentiate there if you were going to go back and be a sales rep yourself go back and be a sales rep yourself go back and be a sales rep yourself right now let's you use that and you right now let's you use that and you right now let's you use that and you wanted to differentiate yourself from wanted to differentiate yourself from wanted to differentiate yourself from the average salesperson through the use the average salesperson through the use the average salesperson through the use of some of the ai tools of some of the ai tools of some of the ai tools what what would you do i mean i do a lot
Speaker 4what what would you do i mean i do a lot what what would you do i mean i do a lot of what we talked about i would use it of what we talked about i would use it of what we talked about i would use it really to to get much deeper knowledge really to to get much deeper knowledge really to to get much deeper knowledge and then i would try to test as many and then i would try to test as many and then i would try to test as many uh hypotheses to as many different uh hypotheses to as many different uh hypotheses to as many different people as possible to get a lot of people as possible to get a lot of people as possible to get a lot of different information different information different information because i think if you're if you're just because i think if you're if you're just because i think if you're if you're just coming in like talking like everyone coming in like talking like everyone coming in like talking like everyone else with the same research else with the same research else with the same research you're gonna you know you're basically you're gonna you know you're basically you're gonna you know you're basically gonna fall into what we just talked gonna fall into what we just talked gonna fall into what we just talked about so you have to be about so you have to be about so you have to be to cap's point extremely curious to cap's point extremely curious to cap's point extremely curious and you know i think you just really and you know i think you just really and you know i think you just really need to focus on need to focus on need to focus on why does this person need to do anything why does this person need to do anything why does this person need to do anything at all forget about you know my company at all forget about you know my company at all forget about you know my company or anything else why would they solve or anything else why would they solve or anything else why would they solve spend any time or money to solve a spend any time or money to solve a spend any time or money to solve a problem that i think that that we solve problem that i think that that we solve problem that i think that that we solve and then how do we tie to that and then and then how do we tie to that and then and then how do we tie to that and then how does my research how does my research how does my research you know support that and then how can you know support that and then how can you know support that and then how can i go ask questions in a differentiated i go ask questions in a differentiated i go ask questions in a differentiated way way way that shows that we're sort of business that shows that we're sort of business that shows that we're sort of business equals equals equals and that i actually understand their and that i actually understand their and that i actually understand their business not just i can you know read business not just i can you know read business not just i can you know read the the clip notes so i think i think the the clip notes so i think i think
Speaker 3the the clip notes so i think i think that's where it comes out when you said that's where it comes out when you said that's where it comes out when you said the last piece is the piece for me that the last piece is the piece for me that the last piece is the piece for me that it comes out and and you differentiate it comes out and and you differentiate it comes out and and you differentiate yourself it's by asking yourself it's by asking yourself it's by asking not telling them how what you already know not telling them how what you already know not telling them how what you already know that all the other guys are that all the other guys are that all the other guys are telling them it's by asking these deep telling them it's by asking these deep telling them it's by asking these deep insightful questions where they think insightful questions where they think insightful questions where they think wow wow wow this person not only did the research this person not only did the research this person not only did the research that all the other reps did that all the other reps did that all the other reps did but the questions they're asking are so but the questions they're asking are so deep and insightful it's got me really deep and insightful it's got me really deep and insightful it's got me really thinking that i'm dealing with the thinking that i'm dealing with the thinking that i'm dealing with the differentiated salesperson differentiated salesperson differentiated salesperson and then the other thing too is like and then the other thing too is like and then the other thing too is like what cap always says is what cap always says is what cap always says is hopefully i say this the right way cap hopefully i say this the right way cap hopefully i say this the right way cap is people don't care how much you know is people don't care how much you know is people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care until they know how much you care until they know how much you care yeah and just because you know a lot yeah and just because you know a lot yeah and just because you know a lot about the company doesn't mean that you about the company doesn't mean that you about the company doesn't mean that you actually care about their problem and actually care about their problem and actually care about their problem and how you're going to solve it how you're going to solve it how you're going to solve it because you haven't differentiated because you haven't differentiated because you haven't differentiated yourself
Speaker 4yourself yourself yeah yeah i mean i think that that part yeah yeah i mean i think that that part yeah yeah i mean i think that that part is key i know is key i know is key i know yeah keith butler who i worked for a long yeah keith butler who i worked for a long yeah keith butler who i worked for a long time ago is big on intent and he used time ago is big on intent and he used to always say intent trumps technique 10 to always say intent trumps technique 10 to always say intent trumps technique 10 out of 10 times out of 10 times out of 10 times and i think if if people believe that you and i think if if people believe that you and i think if if people believe that you care about the problem and you have the care about the problem and you have the care about the problem and you have the right intent really just to to help them right intent really just to to help them right intent really just to to help them ideally solve a high impact problem you ideally solve a high impact problem you ideally solve a high impact problem you know how you get there and some of the know how you get there and some of the know how you get there and some of the questions like they'll give you a little questions like they'll give you a little questions like they'll give you a little leeway there now ideally you're good at leeway there now ideally you're good at leeway there now ideally you're good at that too that too that too but if you are and they really truly but if you are and they really truly but if you are and they really truly believe you're trying to help them then believe you're trying to help them then believe you're trying to help them then usually you're you're in a pretty good usually you're you're in a pretty good
Speaker 1usually you're you're in a pretty good spot you said in the beginning Matt, that I like is that like the seller deficit disorder, you know, the definition that is a customer in the surveys, they found that buyers did not believe for the most part that sellers understood their business and they didn't think that sellers listened very well. So let's talk about AI to overcome that seller deficit disorder is incredible. And you started the conversation with, and this one is horrifying to me, and sometimes it happens to me when I'm getting ready to make a call and I just ask myself, do I understand what this company actually does? Oh, I know I got medic. I know I got attached to the biggest business issue. I can blow them away with what we've done in the marketplace. What I love, what you said is if you can't answer before you get on a call with a customer, what that customer does in simple terms, and then get curious about, okay, so how do they make money? And what are their biggest challenges to making money right now? Like simple things like that, I think gets you into seller deficit disorder. I remember. I remember one of my favorite stories happened with a customer that I was working with, you know, probably 20 years ago. And I think it was at Verizon. And there was a transition from a new national account manager to the next national account manager. And the executive looked at the new person and said, why don't we start this new business? And I said, why don't we start this new business? And they said, why don't we start this new business? And I said, why don't we start by you telling me what you know about us? Holy smokes. It was, I mean, it was a great teaching moment. It was a disaster. And forevermore in that company, they use that thinking of at any point in time, if a customer asks me, before we get started, why don't you just tell me what you know about me or what you know about my company? That's a minimum requirement now. It's always been, I've always thought it's always been, but now there is no excuse.
Speaker 4Yeah. Yeah. I've got a similar story I use a lot with the team. And I always go back to, you know, back in the PTC days, one of the first questions we would always ask is, you know, are you a growth company or a profitability company? Because at some point you have to make a decision on, you know, yeah, you want to do both, but at some point a question will come, we can do this and it'll hurt our profitability or we'll do this and it'll hurt our growth. And you have to figure out like, they're going to make, and I was working with a gaming company and we had, we had the chance to, a competitor, they were spending tens of millions of dollars and we could have saved them for the similar performance, you know, probably 50% of the cost. And the guy said, look, you got to realize we're a high growth company. We're in growth mode. No one's asking me to save money. I don't care about saving money and your competitor, all of our products that drive revenue are built on your competitor's product. So I don't care about saving money when maybe later on, you know, in four or five years when I do great, but you know, it just, you have to align what you do to the, you know, the pain and the way that the company is, you know, is building.
Speaker 1Let me ask a question to you guys. We talk about AI and we're always talking about discovery and we're always talking about preparation. I'm finding great examples of how people are utilizing AI To capture information from the conversations themselves. What are you doing there, Matt? Like, for example, in this situation that you just said where somebody says, well, I'm not interested in, you know, your dialogue is about saving expenses. Yes, but I don't really need you to do that. We're a growth company. We need to do that. Well, I would want to capture that somehow in the moment, learn, develop from it. What did we say next? What did they say? Like, we talk a lot about AI and discovery. How are you utilizing AI and actual call execution and customer, you know, customer engagement? How are you using it there?
Speaker 4Yeah, I think we're doing a couple of different things. The first thing is just, you know, we're a Series A company, so we're looking for as much signal as possible. So every meeting, good, bad, and in the middle is valuable for us. So we take a lot of that information. We go enrich and really hone in on our ICP and, you know, continue to refine that. So, you know, every good, bad conversation all goes into, all right, hey, is this a market? Is this a vertical? Is this a use case? Is this a persona that, you know, is a good fit for us? Because it might be the right, you know, vertical and company, but wrong persona. It might be completely wrong, you know, vertical, and we're going after something that doesn't really care about the problem we solve. So I think 30%. There's a lot that we do there to go continue refining that piece. And then I think a lot of it comes down to objection handling, messaging, positioning. How do we go? We've got a few of common objections that we're hearing. How are we going? And how is that changing over time? How is our product development changing to meet? Are those things that are tied to, like, the core principles of what the company wants to be? Or are those a bunch of science? So we can start to figure out, all right, hey, we know we can address this. It's coming, you know, down the road. Here's how we're going to handle that for now. And here's how it's going to change in a quarter. So there's a lot of it that goes into how we position and message for sure.
Speaker 1I think, again, greatest time to be alive. When I think about a frontline sales manager, I have the ability to listen and participate with a seller. Like never before in my lifetime. Not only that, I have the ability to understand intent. I have the ability to understand body language. I have the ability. It's just, it's so incredible. Yes, AI can get the signals. And I don't want to discount that. It's amazing what companies can get. I love that. And it's amazing. And it's amazing. The common objections. And it's amazing, you know, whether it's a fit for our ICP, which is arguably, you know, we should know that before the discovery. I think we're able to do that before in the discovery stage. But I've actually been giving feedback like, you're just not that likable. And, you know, so in an AI world, if I would be thinking that the feedback that I would be giving would be, that I was able to observe and able to listen to. I could tell when somebody was uncomfortable because they changed their speech pattern. They started to go really surface level versus being curious. And I just think, I don't know about you, Matt. I don't know how you do it with your leaders. Do you have call recording? Do you have, you know, do you expect your leaders to listen to it? Do they coach and develop? What are you finding there? What era are you in now with your team?
Speaker 4Yeah, yeah, yeah. We do a lot of that. And it actually, I mean, that ties into what, you know, Fable does as a company. We're a behavior change platform. We do it on the customer side to change risky behavior. But we do the same thing. It's very, very similar and a lot of parallels to enablement for the sales teams. So, yeah, we listen to a lot of phone calls or a lot of, we use Gong here. We've got a bunch of different tools. We've got a bunch of different tools that are getting signals. The reps and leaders, the leaders are doing, you know, at least 10 calls a week. We come back. We put together sort of a hit list every week to go and do enablement on. We do a couple of, we'll cut up some calls, get all the team together, you know, show people, hey, here's how, you know, maybe I would have answered that. Here's a really good response to this. Here's where maybe we could do better. Do that in individual one-on-ones. Do that in team settings. We do a lot of enablement. For a company our size, we, you know, we spend a lot of time on enablement, actually heading to Denver tomorrow to do that. We do it a lot with the SDRs. We know it changes also a lot how we're going to market. So, you know, very, very, we're seeing tons of phone as like the number one way to get people on, you know, to get opportunities versus, you know, I think people were sort of shying away from the phone. little bit. Now it's almost on a complete one 80 where by far and away the highest number of meetings we book is direct phone calls. Then it's in-person meetings. I think a lot of companies aren't doing the in-person meetings as much. So all that data goes into how are we targeting these customers, specifically what modality is it, phone call, LinkedIn. It's always all the above, but where we focus more time. But yeah, the team knows I'm on the East Coast. I've got leaders and reps all over the, but, but yeah, I'm usually 5:00 AM. I'm starting my day, listening to some, some God, on calls either on a doing a workout or something and I'm I'm starting to give the feedback and they start to see it and then next thing you know the the leaders are doing it now we see the reps are really starting to to do a lot of of self-coaching too which is I think the the place you really want to be is where they want to do this not because they know we're looking at it but because they actually want to get better
Speaker 1for me the more access to technology that I have the more I'm actually able to explain the art of selling so we got the science down we're using AI for the science it's the art for me that really gets highlighted in the technology or what do you
Speaker 3call an art
Speaker 1Johnny well for me like I will see a I will see opportunities of basic things like listening versus telling I will see things like just being likable somebody will say something that's a little awkward and some people have the ability to say hey man I feel like I'm asking you about stuff that you don't want to answer or and the technology does not typically it records it but it doesn't know how to signal that empathy curiosity these are I think the era that we're in with AI it highlights the AI highlights where the art and the science come together and the best leaders that I've seen are the ones that are using it like game film and bringing people back to that moment you know why you hesitated you know why you didn't handle that objection I know you heard it because we all heard it in the but why didn't you do it and there is well I wasn't that confident I wasn't that and AI is just not going to be able to AI is going to be able to record it but it's my ability now to be able to record it but it's my ability now to utilize the AI to bring the science excuse me to bring the art and the science together that's what I
Speaker 4meant by it Johnny yeah I've got an example we we have we had our we have a rep here and uh really smart doing really well and he was in a meeting and he was he was trying to get his champion to to understand really to buy into our process and you know I was listening to the call and he's like you know I asked some of the right questions and and I think the the key cap like you're saying he asked the questions the right way as far as like the words were right but he just sounded like a jerk like anyone that I would want to spend any time with and I yes likable whether you're likable or not yes yeah you're his his tone I said man you're you're you're really great at what you do but your tone just makes it seem like you don't you know give a crap about anybody so you're not going to get a lot of Champions you're not going to get a lot of buy-in no matter what you're selling and you know to his credit he's taking a lot of that feedback or you know people that go in very very stiff and robotic right again like they might have they're saying the right words but you know it's not you can tell they haven't really internalized it those are you know those are some things that I think are yeah sometimes
Speaker 3in those things Matt it could be that they're insecure that they're not so confident um and I think overall what you guys have been talking about is interpersonal skills right yes I mean for me I always I always thought that one of my greatest weapons was just my intuition just going in a room and looking at people's eyes right and figuring out their body language and their facial tells all that stuff I was just so keen on that and I kind of wonder these days about you know the younger generation because they're always on their phone right so whether you go to the gym you go no matter where you go they're always staring at their phone they're not staring at people and the people's body language and a reaction that other people give to them they'll even they'll even ask a question I look at their phone instead of looking at how this person's reacting and what their their facial tells are you know that's so key to me in selling yeah I mean I know it's really hard over Zoom right you can always do that if you're really keen on you got a great intuition and understand body language and facial tells and all that stuff in person but over Zoom it's even more it's even more difficult and it's over Zoom it's even harder to understand the the dynamics in the room in the Zoom room right it's
Speaker 4hard yeah I've got one of one of the the best sellers we have here and you can see I go to a lot of networking events with them and we're doing a lot and I can see just when he's talking to people in a room I could see the other person just mirroring his body moving the way he's moving I'll be next to him he's talking about you know his uh you know church group on Sunday with one group the next person he's talking about going to the casino here like he can just you know he's a chameleon and and everybody loves him and he's he's just super charismatic and great with people and you know he's smarter than your average bear too so he's he's got the IQ but the EQ is really off the charts uh and he's you know he's been a performer at multiple places with
Speaker 1us now I love that one one caution I'll set out to like leaders out there listening if you're coaching and developing people there's a difference between style and content and I always am careful I have a pretty particular style let's say I'm just I'm older I'm more confident I'm direct uh I interject um warmth with humor whatever that's my style the content is being interested versus interesting the content is outside in thinking make it make it all about the customer and earn the right to make it all about you like that's where those worlds come together and if you understand somebody's style I you know I remember being in athletics and I'd watch film and they couldn't say the guy that got drafted you know that played in front of me played for the Atlanta Falcons for 15 years they didn't the best coaches didn't say do it like John Rady do it like him what they said was they were trying to figure out what I was working with how to be me and to be successful to get an outcome and again I'm so excited about where we are with technology I can be so productive and I'm not only saying that I have to be you know gone calls or what have you I can put my phone down ask a customer I'm going to everybody's recording everything I can be face to face with a customer and I can put I'm going to say I'm just to capture to make sure that I capture everything we say you can tell me if you want me to turn it off or what have you but I want to just capture everything so I can listen to you Mr Mrs customer I don't accept that we can't get this information that we're not on a gong call or Zoom or what have you but I want to encourage leaders don't analyze game film and say this is how I would have done I would have said this when they said that why did you say this when they said that because there's a story there on what somebody's comfort level was what and this is again the art and the science of leading I think what what technology can do the bad side of what technology can do on a leadership perspective is start treating everybody the same you guys are all this is you're all handling the objections this way we're going to do development on this and doing we have all the data we need to know exactly who's doing what when and how there's a layer
Speaker 3lower than it everything you're saying it's a hundred percent right on but there's a layer that's lower than it that I've seen go wrong in sales is where people are not themselves they yes you know you you're hanging out with Matt and Cap you know outside the building and they're acting one way and talking one way and you love them for who they are and then we're all different and then we go into this room with other people and all of a sudden you're like who is that guy what happened to Matt and Cap why are they acting so different than who they really are and people have the like in in intuition that can stop on when somebody's not authenticity so it doesn't matter just be yourself you know and I've seen so many times in companies where there's one really good salesperson and one really good leader and everybody else is trying to copy their style dude that's not you and it doesn't come off well it's not authentic it's not real and it's okay to just be yourself it's okay to have role models but it's okay to take pieces of everybody of what they might say say it the way you want to say it may be great to take pieces of how someone does it the skill that they have but you can do it in your own way right make it yours be yourself I hate it when people are just not authentic it just doesn't come off right especially in sales yeah
Speaker 4that's a big one I think it happens a lot to to first time first line leaders like that's probably one of the bigger traps where they they tend to you know try to emulate the person either that promoted them or the CRO there and you know they have this imposter syndrome for a while I'd say I mean I could certainly speak for myself where you know that uh you try to be a little bit different and you know you're you're people know right like you're the same guy they were just with last week when you were a rep and peers and now you know all of a sudden you get promoted and you're a totally different person and you've learned all these new things and you act this different way it's just not
Speaker 1reality yeah I think it's also important to be coachable and adaptable we talk about this a lot on this podcast a lot yes and I had to think about the hesitation of people like why don't if you have a choice like in my company for a while we said people could click the record or not record and after that I was like why why are we doing that like based upon how somebody was thinking about whether they'd be comfortable on this call or not and I realized the reason why it was different for me was I just grew up in a background I played a sport that everything was filmed even practice and so you want to talk about you have to be comfortable some people like oh I don't like the sound of my own voice well what about I don't like the way that I freaking stretch versus the way everybody else does everybody else is stretching because they're videoing everything and I think if you just get into that and then it's how it's used then it's how that information is used if you're using it to build me up and to help me win to identify meet me wherever I am don't try to tell me what I'm not doing versus what John Rady is doing hey Cap this is your superpower here that's your move you got to do it here I don't know what you're doing I don't know what you're doing I think it's just very very powerful so in the day and age that we're in if you're not coachable and if you're not adaptable and if you're not comfortable seeing yourself in action I don't think sales is I don't think sales is the game for you because that's I think that's
Speaker 3I think it's just very very powerful so in the day and age that we're in if you're not adaptable and if you're not adaptable and if you're not adaptable and if you're not comfortable seeing yourself in action I don't think sales is I don't think sales is the game for you because that's I don't think sales is the game for you because that's I don't think sales is I don't think sales is the game for you because that's I don't think sales is I don't think it's
Speaker 4I don't think sales is I don't think sales is the game for you because that's I don't think sales is the game for you because that's I don't think sales is the game for you because that's I don't think sales is the game for you because that's I don't think sales is the game for you because that's I don't think sales is the game for you because that's I don't think sales is the game for you. I think sales is I don't think sales is the game for you because that's I don't think sales is the game for you.
Speaker 3I'd rather that you fail quickly, and I can help you, you know, fix that and go and move on. Right. And I
Speaker 1love what you said about, you know, the leader's responsibility is to also be vulnerable. I think everybody listening right now if you do a call today with a rep, and you have a part in the call, I would begin the feedback, and that's something that gets missed like people pop off zoom calls or whatever it's like the old days of checking your phone. Coming out of a going into a car and checking your phone when they're taking you to the airport and not doing a debrief. But I would do this immediately. Ask the people that you're on the call with. If you had a part in it. I would always ask, Hey, give me some feedback three things you liked about what I did, and three things that you would do differently. And if you start getting that in place, because I'm going to do it with them. If you start getting that in place, it just sets the tone. Like, I don't want to say like, use it inappropriately, like a safe space or whatever. But like, it's, we've created space for people to be able to give feedback. And I think when leaders do that, it's amazing when they act like they don't, they didn't make any mistakes. It's just, it's a disaster.
Speaker 3On the flip side, when I'm, you know, if you listen into a rep, like in a call, and you come out of the call. I don't tell them anything. Yeah. And in the beginning, I say, how do you think it went? Yes. And then follow up with, where do you think you could have done better? And where do you, you know, better, right? What I'm surprised, I'm not surprised at it anymore. But the best sales reps are so critical of themselves, that after you ask that question, they spill out like 10 things that they think they did wrong. And you're like, wait a second, don't be so hard on yourself, you know? Here's one thing I think we could improve on. And the other nine, I don't think they actually matter that much, you know, and then that comes to me that comes across a lot better for the rep, because they're like, they brought up what they did wrong themselves. I didn't bring it up, because they're so critical of themselves. And now I get to help them with the one thing that I think I can, first of all, I could help them with, right, because maybe I have that skill, or I have that knowledge, and then it turns out to be, Yeah, we talk a lot about coaching versus telling.
Speaker 4And, you know, this is something I really had to learn early in my sales careers, or my sales leadership careers. You know, you could just tell someone the answer, because you've seen it a million times, nobody's getting a fastball by you. But they don't really, people, first of all, don't really love being told things, right? If you can ask a bunch of questions, people rarely argue with their own conclusions. So if they say, hey, you know what, I really think I could have done this better. Or, hey, you know what, I actually, I think I need a little bit more pipeline, I don't have enough coverage. Like, they know that. If I came in and just said, hey, you don't have enough pipeline. Yeah, I know. But if it's, you ask a bunch of questions, you get them to realize, you know what, I actually, I need some more pipeline so I can have the right coverage, so I can go have success this quarter and next. Yeah, it's interesting. I was looking at that, too. Okay, let's, you know, let's kind of dig into that. That's a very different level of, you know, of engagement you're going to get from them versus, you know, just yelling at the scoreboard.
Speaker 1And prioritizing some of this stuff that you guys are, that you guys are talking about. I mean, I think the technology, we started this conversation talking about AI and how it's impacting us in positive and challenging ways. What I've noticed is my ability to hold on, hone in on the priorities is way better than it used to be. So I can take coaching sessions that I'm doing with sellers, and I can look for similarities. I can look for differences. I can look for top three things that I'm, that I am seeing and utilize those and be, and be prepared for those conversations. What's the, I mean, my coaching sessions are completely different than they used to be. I would scatter and scavenge for what did we talk about last time? And, you know, because you have so many people you're doing it with. And my ability to be prepared as a leader to serve that individual in that moment is so much greater now than it ever has been. And to be relevant and to be purposeful and these are the, and to follow up. This is what we talked about last time. And this is what we need to do now. And we're still seeing these things. You're doing great on those things. We're still seeing these things. And again, as a thought partner, not to replace me, but to make me more available and present for the men and women that you coach and lead is it's, it's a really incredible time.
Speaker 4Yeah. It adds a ton to the ability to build both personalized development plans, because again, everybody's not the same where they are, what they need and where, what development can I do? That's like the one to many that everybody needs that like is appropriate for that versus, Hey, this person needs, you know, pipe progression, you know, development. This is really where they're struggling. This person needs kind of, you know, land in first meetings, upfront messaging. You can build both and you can do it a lot faster than, you know, the way that we used to do it, combing through, you know, a bunch of detail. And yeah, it was, it was, and you can be prepared to Matt.
Speaker 1So like you'll have to do it. have a day of like one-on-ones and we're rolling into these going hey how you doing what'd you do this weekend and we're it takes us a while to get started and blah blah blah well we got an agenda i know the three things that i got to talk to matt about and it's all stuff that we used to and honestly it's all stuff that kind of fell by the wayside because we were rolling into these coaching sessions or these development sessions or the whatever and we were kind of getting grounded in the moment versus being prepared and there's no excuse today with the technology that's available to meet people where they are and to show up prepared if you sent me something i've read it and digested it you're not educating me on the calls you're not we're not going back and rehashing oh what what account was that i mean we just have the we have the ability to just be the best versions of ourselves i'm not saying it's utopia but if you put in the effort man you can get some great productivity results
Speaker 4yeah i can't imagine trying to do the job that i have now even you know a few years ago i mean i think my career is sort of coming at a time where like if if i had to do what i am trying to do now and be as productive four or five years ago i mean there just aren't enough hours in the day and i mean there are barely enough hours in the day as it is today but but i can get more done and it's uh yeah it's it's definitely a step function ahead of where it used to
Speaker 1be it's funny i see the the areas are my ability to connect with the individuals customers and with individuals that i work with far superior than any time in the past because i'm prepared and i i i just think it's uh you know it's funny the more technology you use the more science you use the more art gets solidified if that makes sense yeah it does i think it's pretty powerful
Speaker 4i think i think that's why adaptability like you mentioned before is so critical like you know there's always these jumps in the way you know leaders lead and the way technology is sold i always think of you know what we did at ptc versus you know then a bunch of the startups came in and you know were disrupting and then there were you know the clouds changed the way people sold and consumption models and then like there's always something changing and there's always something to adapt to this is to me just the next thing to go adapt to and if you don't you're uh yeah you're gonna be you gotta be toast
Speaker 3talk a little bit more about developing people why do you think so many companies actually spend a lot of time trying to recruit top talent and then they don't really spend a lot of time developing their people why is
Speaker 4that yeah i think you know for me that it's you know recruiting is obviously the number one thing that that we do and the people are the most important thing i think you know people tend to they tend to to try to recruit these people and then just sort of leave them alone saying hey these are we'll give them some initial enablement yeah learn the product but then you know let them go which is the exact opposite of what every a player really wants right like they want to go and continue to be developed and you know whether it's to get to a next role or just to to get better at their craft they just have that growth mindset in in every aspect of life right really not even just just work and i think if you don't do that you know that's the fastest way to to lose them but i think it's it comes down to a lot of companies i don't think are very intentional about development maybe like a little bit of first onboarding but you know really after that it it becomes it becomes people being managed like they're bits and bytes and and you know it's just it's just not the case yeah
Speaker 3it's awful and the thing that can keep people out of company is development i mean as times change and if you have a manager in a company that's constantly developing you so you're constantly learning i think most people are going to stay there even if the money's a little bit better someplace else because they're like well where am i going to get this type of development yeah where am i going to get this type of development yeah where am i going to get this type where am i going to find a manager like this that really cares about my development because eventually you'll get developed to the point where you know you could do the leader's job and then you'll you'll go someplace else anyway but up until that point why just jump into a company where you're just making money but over the course of five ten years you never really developed any skills you just keep jumping from one one one shiny object company to the next shiny object company and lots of people do it and you know they they don't really have any skills they were selling lightning in a bottle for five different companies two years each and then they jump to the next one and ten years later they have no real skills yes i mean there's a lot
Speaker 4of i mean there's always that happening but it seems to be maybe even more pronounced now but there's i don't see i really want to find people that are optimizing for development optimizing for those transferable skills you know that's the thing that that stays with you like you said i don't i've only stayed in the same industry i've only stayed in the same industry i've only stayed in the same industry once i don't really care about being sort of a rolodex seller in any way shape or form if there's a big high impact outcome there is value there there's a differentiated product like all right i know we can go sell those things in a big market and i think if you have all those skills you can transfer that from data to cyber to devops to you know you name it um i think it just opens up a whole world of opportunity for you
Speaker 1great interviewing question too johnny is great interviewing question too johnny is like i when i look at somebody's career progression i always ask tell me what did you learn at ptc what did you learn there what did you learn at xerox what did you learn at xyz and i like to understand if people can identify what they learned and it also tells me why they moved but what somebody learned because we are programmed as humans a rolling stone and a rock stone gathers no moss so that is translated in every language around the world it's been around for however long it's been around it's historical it's egypt old and people got to feel like they're moving forward no matter what and we're all built that way so great interview question when you're going through somebody's you know career progression ask them what they learned and if they can't talk about what they learned then they're probably not going to be able to do it they're probably not built that way and if you're a company that offers a lot of development a lot of coaching there you know you might you might have a mismatch there if you're listening right now and you're interviewing for something and you can't talk about what you learned at each job you're at risk yeah i ask my leaders
Speaker 4a lot to make sure that when they think about recruiting where someone will be in a year matters a lot more to me than where they are today right if they have that like someone that's going to be a lot better a year from now because they're so coachable they're so adaptable they want to they want to get better they're going to go implement and i think coachability is an interesting one too because there's a lot of people that i think mistake someone willing to take feedback versus someone who's coachable because they're not the same things like there's a lot of people that are willing to to take the coaching and the feedback they just can't implement it and if you can't implement it like and you keep making the same mistakes it's just a you know unfortunately it's a person who's really willing to to be coached but just can't can't implement those things and maybe they can find that in in something different um but yeah i think that part is is critical that's where
Speaker 3like drive or fear of failure whatever it is that motivates you to get through to learn new skills and that's the hard part for all of us right i mean we have to step up and look in the mirror and say hey i'm gonna have to adapt otherwise they'll find somebody else that will adapt yep so i mean that's what always drove me i'd say like especially when it was like really hard decisions or really hard things i had to do for the first time i'd think well if i don't do it they'll find somebody else that'll do it so come on man step up let's go and then you do it you realize it was never as bad as you thought it was in your mind it's like the old mark twain saying where you know i died a thousand deaths in my life you know all in my mind right we always make things so much worse than they really are but yeah you have to be able to adapt especially in this world i can't believe how many startups i've been in where one year i'm looking at somebody thinking that dude is so good and he's got some skills that i just don't have right now so i'm going to try to get those skills two years later is the company's a different company i look at that person and go he's a dinosaur he hasn't changed and those skills that he had they were great at that time they know longer applicable it's a different company you need different skills different knowledge to go off and pull this pull the sale off it's it's amazing what happens yeah i don't know why some people just don't change just on the job they get comfortable and then they don't for many different reasons don't want to adapt yes i i see
Speaker 4it i mean you see a lot like you just mentioned right there's a lot of times that year one year two in an early company the top rep that can't get out of their own by by year three and you know i think there's a lot that goes into but one thing that i i find pretty common is it just that changing just, it just doesn't give them energy. Like they, they could do it. They're smart enough. They're capable. It just, it drains energy versus gives them energy. And that, you know, adaptability is the critical piece, right? Like we used to say at PTC that it stood for prepare to change, right? That was, you had to be ready at all times. And if you didn't love that, then, you know, it was probably going to be a difficult spot. I think if you really embrace that and you like, you know, you're a lifelong learner. And like I said, in, in sort of all aspects of life, I ask people all the time, what's the last thing you learned, you know, just for fun or outside of work. Cause if they're not doing that, then they're probably not going to do a lot of development and self-learning in the company either.
Speaker 1Man, there's some golden nuggets in the last 10 or 15 minutes of the conversation that you guys are having on that anybody listening to this podcast, whether you're interviewing or whether you're, you're the interviewee or the interviewer being prepared and audible, ready to talk about your experiences with what you guys just talked about is really, really important. And I sit on a lot of interviews and a lot of this stuff isn't talked about. So you really, if we're saying that coachability and adaptability are really, really critical to being successful and you're interviewing somebody or you're going to, or you're going to be interviewed and those topics aren't coming up, you're going to, you're going to be making some recruiting mistakes guaranteed. But like Matt said,
Speaker 3it all goes back to characteristics, right? Yeah. You have to truly interview for the characteristics first, because that's truly kind of determines whether or not they're going to have the persistence, the heart, the desire, the fire, the fear of failure to go ahead and, and, and, and adapt. And then many other characteristics that you need to learn skills and gain knowledge over time also. So. Exactly. Anything else is a
Speaker 4skill that we can, we can develop you on. If you don't have the characteristics, it's going to be tough.
Speaker 3Right. And there's some of those interviews where you say, so what's the risk? Well, what do you mean the risk? Well, the guy didn't match the ideal candidate profile a hundred percent, did they? No. Okay. So what are they missing? And then they tell you what they're missing. And then they say, you know, but we could change him. I'm like, no, you can't. Their mom's dad couldn't change it by the time they're 20. You're not going to change them. Yeah. Not going to happen.
Speaker 1If you're trying to put in them what God left out, good luck. Yeah. Good session, Matt.
Speaker 3Well done, Matty.
Speaker 1That was a quick hour.
Speaker 3I know. Yeah, it was. It was. This was great. Yeah. Thanks for joining us. We can have you back again. That was a good discussion.
Speaker 4Yeah. Anytime. No, I love like the podcast is, I think changed a lot of sales leaders and sales reps lives, to be honest. I mean, back to talking about like, you know, this time and day and age with AI. It's also the exposure I think that we have as leaders to, you know, folks like yourselves and the people that you interview and just this, there's so much information you could go suck in. But I think what you guys are second to none when it comes to that in this world. So appreciate everything you do.
Speaker 3Thanks, Mat. Really appreciate it. Matt Firmino, John Kaplan. Thanks a lot. Thanks to everyone for listening to another episode of the Revenue Builders podcast.
Speaker 2Thanks for listening to today's episode. If you enjoy the content, please subscribe, rate and review the show to help us reach more people. This show is brought to you by Force Management, where we help companies improve sales performance, executing the growth strategy at the forcemanagement.com for more information.
PodcastTranscript AI