You're listening to the Dave Gerard show. Hey it's me Dave, that's me, I'm Dave. Before we get into today's episode, I want to give a quick shout out to our friends at Webflow who are sponsoring this episode. Webflow is the agentic web marketing platform for high performing brands. Their platform lets you build fully custom websites that rank in AI search and make your website your biggest growth engine without being dependent on a developer. I know that because we use Webflow at exit five, no developers here. This episode is part of a three part AEO series that we're doing with Webflow over the next few weeks. I've been having a bunch of conversations with practitioners who are deep in the weeds on AI SEO and web optimization. We talk about what's working, what's changing. With real examples, you can go and apply to your job right now in marketing. Webflow also put together this free AEO assessment. You can check it out after this episode. We'll link to it in the notes here. AI is changing how buyers discover and evaluate your brand and this resource will tell you exactly where you stand. You'll get a personalized score showing how your site performs in AI search today. Visibility into how likely your brand is to be cited by answer engines. You're going to break down across your content, technical foundations, authority and how to measure where you show up so you know where to focus. We'll put the link in the notes here. Thanks again for Webflow to create this series with us all about AEO, one of the hottest topics we've had in marketing, a big appetite for it. I know this is going to be a great interview. Let's get into this episode. Everyone's trying to figure out what actually matters when it comes to AI and search in marketing right now. My guest today has your back for Becca Bussk. Runs Cavalific, a Webflow focus agency in Denmark. That's been doing branding, design and web for 11 years. And AEO is the thing she's talking about with clients every single day right now and she came on the podcast to break down exactly what's working. We cover 10 specific things you need to check on your site for content quality right now. The technical side, we talk about content strategy, we talk about authority. This PR come back in this world, Reddit, G2 linked in to social signals matter in AI search. We've been talking, thinking and hearing about AEO and aren't sure what to actually do about it. This episode is for you. Enjoy my conversation with Rebecca. Is this true? You started as a consultant and now you do own the company? Yeah, I did. Okay. So I want to ask you about, we were talking about Louisville being a D1 athlete, but now I got so many we're going to get back there. So I want to talk about that. How did you go from working at the company to owning the company? Well, honestly, it was quite a mix of timing, trust, maybe a little bit of craziness to be completely honest. Because if he was at a very difficult place at the time, I started and there was a lot of debt, very little money in the bank and some people are ready to kind of move on. So it was not that the polished, perfect opportunity from the outside that most people I will expect when you see, oh, I became a partner in an agency, but I saw something in it and I saw a team that had a real talent and I was really lucky. I got the opportunity and the owners trusted me enough to let me sit there. But I also think you have to be a bit naive to trust them brave to say yes to this kind of opportunity because there's absolutely no guarantee it would work. I think they had about like $320,000 in debt when I started. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. And we were an agency of about 10 people at the time. So if you do the math, that's a lot of money that you have to pay back to the government. I really believe that I could, yeah, change things and if I've been on the other side and I know what I hated when I work with agency. So I know all the things I wanted to do differently. What did you hate? What did I not hate? No, I'm just kidding. Often it's like the agency's just make things too complicated. Well, I'm saying it because everyone, everyone who listen to this podcast is works in marketing and so either they work in an agency, they've hired an agency. So like this is the audience to like vent vent about those things, you know? So when I was sitting on the other side, I felt like all the agencies that we were speaking to always had to overcomplicate the most basic things because you know, they've got to be the experts. They want to make sure that they sound like the ones knowing more than you, but instead of just explaining it in the basic terms. So we kind of like an eye-hide and eyesight, I think you would say, then they just tried to sell me stuff that I didn't need. I also hated when agencies just disappear after launch. It's like we're best friends. I can't wait to jump and then check in every single morning. You have to stand up. And then the second we go live, of course, the worst experience, right? Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, or like you build a relationship with the, it feels good. Like the founder, the big name who runs the agency, you know, they sell you on the deal and then you get passed down to some super junior person, which is not a bad thing. I've just always wondered how you, how you manage that. You took over running this agency. Where did you get your appetite and desire for marketing? You know, I always say, so my little line is like nobody went to school for B2B marketing. And you're like the perfect example of that went to Louisville. You know, got an MBA, was not specific to marketing, you know, D1 athlete. Here you are running an agency today. Like how did you, how did you get here? It's also to be operating and operating an agency means you have to be a thought leader. You have to have opinions. You have to have strong thoughts on what companies should be doing and where marketing is going. Where did you build that base of marketing knowledge? That's really good question, Dave. And thank you. I do this for a living. I appreciate that. I don't know if I have like a, I don't know why I ended up here. So like if I just track back and look into what kind of actions happened was when I was this school in Louisville, I always knew that I wanted to go into economics of finance. I really like when things are tangible. When you kind of have a foundation, you, you trust the process, you know, there are certain rules you got to follow and then you always know that you end up at the right place. And it went really well. I thought I was going to end up at Wall Street. Maybe I would buy in stocks, options, puts, you know, great time. Lots of do it for a living as a hobby. And then I took my MBA and during my MBA, I met up with a professor, Dr. Barroni. He was getting a shout out here. And in his marketing class during my MBA, like my job dropped because at this point for like 25 years, I believe that marketing was sales and graphic design. Why and how I do not know, but I was absolutely convinced that all markets years were doing is making commercials, making these graphics that you see, flyers, et cetera. And I just, I've been learning about bubble. Yes. And I never, I never realized that there was more to it. And then he suddenly just starts the first lecture and talks about like buyer behavior and all the analytics behind it and how consumers are being almost manipulated based on what you're showing or telling them. And I was like, I love this. Not manipulating people. I want to manipulate, I can't wait to manipulate consumers. But I was like, this is incredible. And then after class, I kicked you nuts. I was that kind of student that just waited for everyone to walk out the classroom. And I was like, this is going to sound crazy. But like you just gave me like a jaw dropping moment, 25 years too late. And now I'm here. I have a perfect finance and economics degree. And I want to change my direction. So how do I start? That background makes you an interesting marketer. I think if you're grounded in finance and analytics and economics, it's a really nice pairing for the creative side of things in marketing, actually. Yeah. Yeah. And I think then he was like, you know what? There are some basic things you need to learn and understand. You learn that in my course. But he says, show up in my office tomorrow. And then I have some research stuff I'm working on. And I would gladly include you in doing all the slave work because that's what professors love to do with their students. That's why you're a research assistant. And I just learned so much. And I love it. Like I love every part of it. And I was like, I need to change my full direction of what I'm doing because this is what my hardest being calling for. I just didn't know it existed. Okay. So you did a couple other things after that. But now the last four years you've been running this agency. How do I say the name of it? Think about like the word quality. And then you just say, "qualific." Qualific. Okay. Perfect. Yeah. Is that what that name means? No. It actually comes from qualifications. So you think it's short now and Danish? Qualific. Yes. Okay. So we didn't start as an agency. It started as a network of young talents like Auditech, young talents to 17-year-olds starting at this hub for people trying to convince others that the 17-year-olds smart kids can also do marketing and code your next app. You don't have to have a degree in data science or anything else. You just got to have the right talents. Okay. The reason that you're here is because we're going to talk about everyone's favorite topic right now, which is AEO. Yes. I love it. We've done a bunch of content on this topic, but I just want to hear in your voice to the marketers that are listening to this podcast. This is AEO is something that you're talking about every single day with clients. You have deep working knowledge across like technical side of this, the content side of this quality, learning about authority, and your agency does branding design in web. What matters right now? What do we know in your words? What do we know about AEO as of we're recording this?
It's called July 2026. What's the state of the world? What matters? What's changing? What do we know? What's important? Well, AEO has changed quite significantly how it is we're finding the answers to product, the companies that we need to engage with. It has significantly changed. An example for myself, I'm renovating my apartment right now, right? And usually I would go down to the store and figure out what kind of ladder I would buy or something like that. And I would Google, I'll figure out on Google what I wanted to buy. And I've actually been googling this multilateral kind of figuring out should I buy one that can extend how big should the platform be all these different things. But it's not really answering what I need because I don't do renovations like this is new for me. So I go to an LLM, I go to chat to BIT or CLAW. In this example, I actually want to chat to BIT specifically. And I'm like, I have a 3.2 meter ceiling at my apartment. We have meters in Denmark. I need kind of a. Yeah. Thank you for. Actually, so I play a lot of golf and I don't know if you know about golf at all, but you have this like a rangefinder which tells you how far you're supposed to hit it. And my rangefinder is supposed to be in yards, but it was stuck on meters. I didn't know how to get it off. So I had to use chat to BIT and get the conversion. I'm like, it's with 78, but 78 meters to yards. Yeah. But anyway, so I'm trying to figure out what kind of ladder to buy. And Google products is showing me hundreds of products. And we're talking about the biggest Danish brands, like the biggest Danish retailers selling this. So think about best buy and stuff in the US for electronics and stuff. That's what we're talking about. But then I go to the LLM to chat to BIT and I explain my situation. And only two ladder show up. Two ladders. I've just seen hundreds of different ladders in Google, but only two showed up in AI search. I ended up buying one of those two, not any of the 200 others that I found that looked and much better matched me because it didn't answer whether or not it was fitting my needs. But the LLM could say these two specifically has optimized the product on their site and it's fitting your needs. So basically as consumers right now, the way we are finding answers on buying products, we used to have to do all kind of the research ourselves, clicking through 20 different pages, reading all the product specs, kind of doing our own sheet probabilities to figure out which one matches my needs. What is the cost? Now the LLM is doing that for us. Like AI search is changing completely how we are buying, both in B2B and B2C. Yeah, and even you know, you mentioned chat to BT or Claude. I've noticed that recently. So like if I'm on my phone, I'm doing a Google search in Chrome. I can't even remember the last time I went to the traditional search page because now you get that context in the AI overview and then if you click like more or whatever, you can just chat back. And I was talking to my wife the other day about this. It's like the whole way you find information is changing because you used to be search, scroll, see what's kind of you know, on page one, maybe go to page two, see what's there. Now I'm just like having this conversational interface for all of this and I'm like, man, this is going to totally change how people think about their websites, how people think about traffic, how people think about the metrics here. You have some advice about how to show up in AEO search. And so I have our little prep doc that our team gave me here, but this is really interesting. You're the first person I've seen say this is topic, the first topic that we have is you said, don't write AEO content with AI. This is your most vocal and controversial position and you lead within and a lot of your LinkedIn content. Can you tell me about this? So don't actually use AI to write the AEO content. Yeah. So the reason I'm saying that is because AI and AI, like just basically the LLMS is basing their answers on content that's already out there. And if you want to be cited, you should not sound like the 2000 other sites that are out there. You need to provide something that's unique. So you need to go inside of your own business and figure out do you have some data, do you have some some specs, do you have research, do you have expert knowledge that you can add to the conversations that will separate yourselves. And I've seen way too many tries to do the cake log. Can you please write me a blog post about why they should pick my ABC and my B2B software is the best for this industry. Please write me a blog post. It is so generic. It's so vague. You can easily see when it's AI content because it's just missing that piece that's making you go, oh, wow, it's making you like stand up. Yeah, the soul. It's all those little like choppy little sentences. I can't I don't have a good word for it, but I just have that feeling. Yeah, but it's like they're over explaining the basics, right? So it's like you have no really samples. You have no name customers, no cases, no trade-offs, no numbers. You're like, it's basically just giving you that beating around the bush talk and you're like, it all sounds really good. But do you actually tell me anything that I could use for anything? And I am extremely tired of seeing the mass production of content you're seeing right now, even on LinkedIn. Do you see like 1200 posts about the same update to flawed code word? I know that gets so many comments like on my posts about just people using AI to like write comments on my posts. And I instantly know it just makes it gives you a certain feeling. So it's interesting because we kind of flock to these tools early on to write content. But now it's like if everyone has access to these tools and everyone is writing their newsletters or their blogs or their social posts with AI, we're missing the fundamental ingredient and marketing, which is like how do you stand out and be different? Yeah, and it's going to cost the brain so much trust. So all the content market tiers and all the CMOs out there, if you have a student helper right now just mass producing a lot of blogs because you think you're going to show of an AEO, it is going to make your brain sound like everyone else and it's actually going to hurt you in the long run. So please make sure that you add something valuable inside of it. I'm not saying that you cannot use AI to actually rewrite all the great content you have. It has great stuff you can use it for, but not to make original content. So how would you think about maybe let's go like one level up. How would you think about a content strategy right now for a business then like what do you need to be thinking about what role should content serve in the business today and then how do you go and create which content should you create should you have a blog is the landing pages as it articles is some type of website structure just any thoughts on the overall content strategy that works right now. Yeah, so I think the most important thing right now is that the one question you should not be asking yourself is what blog post should be right or what page should be right. The questions you should be asking yourself right now is what do buyers ask the sales before they buy like when they talk to you sales team when they book a demo what do customers misunderstand about your category like what objections comes up again again and sales calls. What do we explain on calls that's not written anywhere on the website. I want you to go inside and talk to kind of your team the express and the team and then after that you're going to say okay all these great questions we just asked are they being answered by us or are competitors right now. And if none you have a golden opportunity to be cited literally tomorrow if you go and write that content. The content matters a lot and it's always have but you need to ask some questions that makes it unique. So is it more like bottom of the is it more like middle you need more middle and bottom of the funnel content now or is it that you need to have more the things you should be creating should be more unique than just you remember the like the five or 10 years ago it was like if you sold a CRM you would make a bunch of content that was kind of like what is sales what is a CRM and you would do that play am I understanding that right. Yeah so the way we think about it here at Califit because we do a lot of AO is we kind of divided into three different categories. So you have the foundational prompts so the foundational prompts are kind of what is the CRM what is a yo what is web flow for us specifically that we're looking into it's ranking on then you have the core ones that it's like I need to find a webflow agency what kind of skills should I be looking for what kind of case should I be looking for and then you have the must win ones that's I want to hire a webflow agency who should I hire. So you need to figure out in your strategy which one of the three prompt strategies that you're kind of going for and that's of course up to you the strategies that you company together with your agency or internally to figure out what is it right now that you're not ranking on that you feel like you should be ranking on because usually people still go through the funnel because they're asking different questions. For example you're asking the question I think that I need a new website what kind of indications should I be looking at if my my current website is outdated or not performing. So they're asking the questions and so suddenly they realize oh shoot maybe I do need a new platform because I can't grow on this one and then you move from foundational to core to must win. You mentioned not thinking about the blog so I think there was a good like those are good answers on like the how to rethink the prompts but people often want to know where to should the content live today like the blog still have a place so to just be you right do not need a blog and you just need 10 core articles on the site that act and answer those questions. How would you guide someone on because when we talk about content people this can mean anything it could be you should have a podcast you should have a newsletter you should have a blog you should have articles on your website for the sake of showing up in AI search do you have any strong opinions on
on how you should be executing on this content? - I personally do not have a strong opinion whether or not it should be a landing page, a product page or a block page. I think the most important thing is kind of how you're structuring it on your site. So there's kind of some common rules that you have to follow no matter what page it's placed on. I am not a machine learning expert, but the testing we have done ourselves have shown that it did not matter whether or not it wasn't a service page or in a block page, content is content and if you're answering direct questions wherever you are it makes sense. So I think we have to think about the human perspective on it too because humans are landing on your page and what feels natural for them. So don't just optimize for AI search because if you're suddenly gonna have some kind of block post-feeling narrative on your product page for your B2B clients, they're gonna be like, what just happened here because this is a really bad use of experience. - You mentioned earlier when you were in college like thinking about you got interested in the brand and the storytelling and the narrative and it's like, I think we forget that the goal is not just to optimize for AI, but okay, I might use AI to find, in your ladder example, you might use AI to find you the two ladders, but then when you actually click on the site, what if one of those ladder companies had like a really cool brand and it was really interesting and had a real story, it's like, it's this one two punch where making sure your content is discoverable for the robots and then it's the human who's gonna make the buying decision, you need to win them over maybe more emotionally than you would with the AI. So do you wanna talk about technical, do we talk about what matters technically here? I think we have a good primer on philosophy on content strategy and the types of questions, like think backwards from the questions people would be asking, but should we talk about the technical side of AEO? - Yeah, no, a quality is super important because if you have the perfect content strategy and you have the perfect market tiers asking to write questions internally, but your site is not crawlable, you're still not gonna show up, so all that time would be wasted. So it's super important to make sure you do the audit on your site, that is crawlable, that all these AI engines can actually run through reading the content and the way it should be read because otherwise it wouldn't be cited either. So I think that's super important. Some of the things about crawlability and I'm sure that you talked about this previously on the PUT test too, but schema markups is a great way to make sure that the AI engines is reading the content and the way you want it to read your content. So that's kind of the biggest difference that you're basically giving it the recipe to say, this is the date, this is the title, this is et cetera. Where we as humans, we can identify that when we scroll, but these engines are not scrolling the page as humans do. So I think it's just super important for market tiers out there to go back and actually double check. Go to your Google search console and put the URL in on the page that you're actually not sure, is it actually showing up? Is it being indexed right now? Just go and copy paste them. You don't need a developer to do that. So if you're in doubt about any of the pages, do it. 'Cause we see a lot of the same things happening with kind of the crawlability issues, like it's bad read our ricks or it's four, four pages, orphan pages, all these things that are kind of hurting the strategy. It's kind of, it's still SEO. It's basically the same things you have to follow. - Okay, so schema markup is, we have this in our, schema markup is the structured meaning you add to a page. It tells search engines and AI systems what the content is, who it's from and how different pieces of information relate to each other. So if I just write an article and publish it to my site, I'm not gonna automatically have this, you need to add this schema markup there separately. - Yes, exactly. So most website builders don't have it built in. As you mentioned in the beginning, we have a web flow agency specifically. That's our platform tool of choice. And what I'd really like in there is as a market tier when you go in and you add me at a time, you meet a description all the content. They actually have this JSON, L.D. script place where you can just generate with AI the schema markup. So you don't need to be a developer to actually do it because I think one thing that's been holding market tiers back is that most people don't know how to write a schema markup. But things to AI, they can pretty much help us generate the content for us. And then you go to schema.art and then you validate that it's the right schema that you put in. - Okay, I'm listening to Rebecca on the podcast. Yeah, we have a bunch of content. Oh my gosh, I actually don't know the technical side of this. What's like a checklist of things that I should do after this podcast to go and make sure that my website content has? - Yeah, first I would say go and check whether your key page is a being indexed and you can do that on your Google search console. Afterwards, I would go and check if your page has the meta titles, the meta descriptions. Then I'll go and make sure that your pettings are clear. I will add the internal linking between related pages because that's also helping engines to kind of understand how the content is structured on your site. I would create FAQ sections where it's relevant. It's still important to have it, whether you have it on a specific FAQ or you have it up and then add the FAQ schema to it because then you're telling these AI engines, here is a question that's often being asked. Here is the answer to that question. So if someone is asking this question as a prompt, you can pull this answer for them. I think that's something you can do immediately. And then just go and use Google's rich results test for the schema validation. Go and check these basic things to begin with. I think that would be amazing. - Do the web flow and others, do they have these things built in now? 'Cause it's like, if I don't wanna, why go do this manually? Aren't I gonna have a hosting platform that's gonna just make me smart and ask all these questions for me? - What I love about web flow is they're really thinking AI first now, 'cause they know they're not gonna be competitive against other platforms if they're not gonna make sure they stay a step ahead. So web flow launched this AO tool not too far ago where you can actually have this overview that's showing you do you have pages that are missing to meet a title or the meet a description. Or if you have prompts that you know that you wanna rank for it on your page, you can write it into the tool directly in the platform and it will actually tell you how they're ranking and what you can do to improve it. So all this is already included in the platform itself. And then as I talked about earlier, the schema markup is probably one of the things that's making most markets years go, oh no, now I'm gonna be in the back like at my developers asking them to implement this and the 200 pages we have on our site if we don't have it already. Having that little JSON LD box that the web flow have on all the pages where you can just generate a schema markup with AI is just magic. So yeah, I think that's just beautiful because a lot of people again going back to me talking about what I hate with agencies is that I have to ask agencies to go to every single page and make an update for me. Like just imagine how expensive it is if you go to an agency and say, hey, do you wanna go through 200 pages for me and validate if it have schema markup and if not, do you wanna go do it? And just imagine if it's like $150 an hour, right? That's expensive. So now market tiers, communication, content, strategies, they can go and do this themselves directly to the platform. Just love it. Could you do all of this with like a homegrown site? Could you just build something with AI and agents that can just kind of always do this for you, cloud code, generate, you know, here are the things people are searching for generate 100 pages, you know, update them, have all the right markup and everything on it. Is that possible? Dave, you're going back to my yacht earlier. We talked about. - Does I gave you a layup? I don't know what the rowing, I don't know what the rowing analogy is here, but I gave you a layup because that's, yes, I'm asking that because that's how we feel, right? That's how marketers feel like we listen to this podcast. If I go to LinkedIn, I'm like, oh my God, I'm so dumb. I'm not using and I'm texting Dan. I'm like, we need to vibe code our whole website and we're gonna just have cloud code dynamically create a thousand pages for us. That's, so it's possible, but it's not gonna work. What's your reaction to that? - It's not gonna have those real example. It's gonna be vague. It's just gonna be too generic. It's not gonna add any value and it's not gonna be cited. So one, of course, you gotta make sure if you do this homegrown that you make sure that it's actually probable in index, but after that, you're not gonna get cited if you're not adding thing new. They can already cite someone saying, what is a CRM? They can already cite someone that's saying, what is AEO? What they cannot cite if you're saying, I'm considering implementing an AEO strategy, come up with some examples of how others have done this. If you have written a original content saying how you have implemented an AEO strategy on a client or on your own brand and you actually share some of those results, I almost want to and I need to be careful in a podcast, guarantee you that you will show up. And I did this test myself not too long ago and it did work. If you're providing some real original content, AI will cite you. And of course, it has to be truth and you have to have some authority that validates it. - So it's like why you're making the case for, it's almost like there's narrative. You can automate everything, you can have Cloud Code do all this up, but what you're saying is like, yeah, sure, the robots will read that, but it's actually not gonna be the thing that stands out and actually drives conversions for you. And so you don't want to create a thousand pages because you need to have a human in there actually making it unique. - Exactly, but I do want to say one thing. So please quote me on this because you can use AI as the editor or the researcher or the structure assistant. - Right, yeah, you're not saying don't use AI. - Exactly. - Okay, so where does AI fit in that workflow? Then it's your researcher, it's your editor, it's not the. - Exactly. So you can do some research saying, Hey, I do need you.
need some authority for this article that's outside of my own brain. So can you please go out and see if there's any big like Gartner or someone that has done any research on AEO where there is some great stats that I can also reference in my own where you also cite them. Do some research there. But you need to add something then and say with my clients or with my brand what we achieved was this. And it might be so much different or so similar to what Gartner said before. So whoever you want to reference. And then you add something to it where the illolim is going to say, mm, yummy. I love this. I'm going to show it next time someone is going to prompt this. I like this. Okay. We have 10 things at all. Everyone listening to this needs to check on their content quality right now according to my new friend Rebecca. I will I will tell you the thing then you can explain the what in the why. So number one is improve readability. Yes. So for readability, think about when you're going to read content, make it easy to understand, do not use kind of a cabal error that normal people wouldn't understand because humans wants to read something that's easily digestible. Ingen's wants something that's easily digestible to adding fancy bus words, saying utilize instead of use. It's not going to make you look better. It's actually going to make it harder for the machines to understand content. Add clear definitions. Make it very clear what it is that you're talking about. You cannot just make assumptions that the readers already know what it is. So if I'm saying, oh, a yo, my a yo strategy blah, blah, blah, did this explain what an a yo strategy is because a lot of people is probably going to be what the hell is that? Use Q and a sections. So make sure you just answer the prompts, the questions. So you don't have to have an FAQ to do that. rewrite the titles to be the questions. Why should I implement an a yo strategy? Why should I write content that will be cited by AI search? And then you answer it in the content underneath. I really like this. I just like the idea of like the Q and a and the FAQ. I think it's a good frame for thinking about what questions should your site answer? First, a lot of times we kind of just go and make the website. I like when we think about like for right now, we're working on the website for that, that we have this page up for our event, which is drive x if five.com slash drive. And at the bottom, we have FAQs, but that's only because over time, we've learned all the things people ask about this event, which is like, you know, which hotels are nearby? How far is it from the airport? Is there, you know, food, the dietary restrictions? You know, all those questions is what actually makes it unique. And so I like going back to that. Move the main answer up. I like this one. Put the key point or definition in the first paragraph. This is like, because we all have no attention span today. And so you better give me the answer immediately. Yes. I literally have a rule of four that I really want to dive into. And that is rule of four. It's like crazy because AI likes to say rule of three. So I'm breaking this structure. I like rule of three. But yeah, rule of four because the rule of three is, you know, stop, stop. I don't know what it is. And you know, in the States, you know, it's like stop, drop and roll. Are you called 911? It's three, but we'll go with your rule of four. It's okay. So going back to the main answers near the top, I have a rule of four. Answer first, explain second, prove third and expand fourth. Follow this on your page because that is how the ill-elim AI wants to skim the side. Yeah. So you're like, Hey, I'm going to, okay, great. I answered your question. I'm going to tell you all the why in a second. But first, let me answer your question. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah. It's like, if I'm cooking, I would go Google like, what's the time and temperature in the oven for salmon? And I got a scroll down like, you know, some blog on food network, four pages just to find that. It's like, what's great about the AI overview is it's going to tell me that right away. Mm-hmm. Add dates and add author and source attribution. Why does that matter? It's super important because ill-elim's do not want to side all content. So you might have some really great content from 2013. That's still worth gold. You know, we all have a favorite marketing book or sales book that's like, ages old, but they still publish a new version where there is a new data. This thing goes for like having content on your side. You have to have some kind of visible published date or last updated date. Because the ill-elim wants to make sure that the content has actually been reviewed or changed because it takes the most fresh content and the most relevant content. So that's why add key takeaways and long pages with a short summary of the main point. So similar to how you'd answer it up front after you blah, a lot of content on the page. You need to like, you know, tie a bow on it. Yes. And I think what I usually do, and of course, I can't ask, flawed and chat to you. How do you exactly go and find it? I believe in my hypothesis is that in the beginning of your page, you need to have the key takeaways or like a TLDR too long didn't read. Imagine again, the short attention span. You need to summarize all the content that's coming beneath. What are we actually going to cover here and what are the key takeaways? Because if the engine decides that this is actually really important, it is going to skip through the rest of the page. But within the first 30% is usually what I say. If it's not getting all the nice stuff within the first 30%, it's going to leave your site and find the answer somewhere else. But then in the end, I also still want to say put a summary because some people then scroll all the last part of it and then give them the summary that is separate from the key takeaways. And then you just covered both ways. But again, that's my own. I do not have anything to back that up, but I feel like it seems to work with the clients we've done it with. Yeah, it's like good, good writing. You kind of recap what you've done. I also think it's consumer behavior to open up something, scroll to the bottom of it to kind of see the ending. Yeah, exactly. Go to the last page of the book. Use proof and examples, replace your vague claims with numbers, cases, quotes or specific details. I think you covered this earlier, but this is the stuff that AI just isn't going to know. It's like leaving this for placeholders for you to come in and actually put in specific examples. Yeah, just think about how often you've seen on a page like we build websites or we design good experiences. If you change that out to say we rebuild websites with 800 plus pages for this client and improve 170% demo bookings, bam, then you just got something that I'll just things is really yummy. And they want to quote you on. But everyone says they build websites. Your college professor would be proud of that. I think one of the consumer psychology lessons that I learned is like to have real numbers and be specific. And that's what makes it real and we're more likely to believe 100. Like if you say I have 100, here's 100 B2B marketing examples. That's OK. I actually like here's 93 B2B marketing examples. I like that one better because it's more specific. Two more, which is number, this one is strengthened internal links. What does that mean? So basically make sure just like you've done with SEO all the time that you add the links from the key pages to the relevant service pages, block posts, case studies, etc. Both for the humans reading it, but also for the LLM skimming your site to make sure that if you're referencing a case or a case study or product or testimonial, you're linking to that case study or that testimonial because most likely the LLM will go and verify whatever claim you're making to make sure it's actually backed up, either in the client side or the brain side. And the last one, which I think you you hit on already is use the right schema, match the schema to the page types, such as organization, article, product service, FAQ or breadcrum. Exactly. OK, let's talk about the last topic, which we haven't covered yet, which is really interesting to me because I started my career in PR and content. So authority, what others say about you. Obviously you can say a lot about yourself, but authority from others is, you know, when other people say that you have the authority matters. I came up in like the V one of this where the biggest thing you could get as a startup was to get a backlink from a domain authority, you know, that can from a strong domain. What matters today? I think you talk about Reddit and G2 and these other sites or, you know, getting PR and backlinks, but let's just spend a couple of minutes before we wrap up talking about what matters from an authority standpoint. Is there like a PR play here? How does this work? I think one matters a lot is whether or not you're getting confirmation outside of your own little bubble that you're living in like our other people talking about your customers, validating your claims are trusted side linking to you. Are real people actually connected to the company? Do you have employees linked on your your webpage and they're actually showing up and LinkedIn as well, where they're claiming that they're working there. Do you have examples that are specific enough to to believe? So there's a lot of things to it because smaller businesses cannot just show up on these big brains and high authority websites, but you might have been receiving an award for something unique in your specific industry, right? And that award someone else have given you and of course there's a lot of awards out there that's just a scam, but there's also a war awards that's very much validated. And if you can then say we actually received this award from this place where we were up against these people and this is why we wanted then you're suddenly making a really claim about something others have said or done and hopefully they've also posted about it. Are there somewhere that the AI can verify this? And if so, it will be cited if no one else has any content like that. Do you think PR this PR have like a resurgence with AI? How do you think about PR today and getting other people to talk about you? I think PR is making a comeback, but a big bud. It has to feel natural and offensive. So that's why I also mentioned Reddit. Like Reddit is such an authentic place for people to share their opinions and all that. And I know Webflux.
actually did an experiment where they tried to go in and see if can you actually change the behavior of what people are thinking if you answer the questions. And I think they did it together with graphite if I'm if I'm not incorrect. Anyway, I remember the conclusion being you cannot go and just post a bunch of places that oh, Webflow is the greatest platform is this and that. But if the Webflow reps actually went in and replied to real questions and problem solving and making sure guiding people of validated solutions, they actually started getting a lot more authority. So I think it has to be authentic too. You can't start the conversation yourself, but you certainly could go and answer it. And if you give a valuable answer that works, it's like what works inside of our community. If you started a thread and you were like, hey, I own this agency, here's what we do. But if you went into if you went into a post and you added value in the comments, that's a that's a great way to do it. What about LinkedIn? Like you're you're writing on LinkedIn. I'm writing on LinkedIn. Is there any research or data or info like does do the LLMs take any social signals? Is that possible? My honest answer is I'm not sure. But so far with all the AEO strategies and testing and clients we've worked with, I've actually never seen any social proof coming up. Like I've never seen LinkedIn being one of the sources to any of the things being cited. So my God feeling is saying I don't think so yet, but I actually don't know. Yeah, because I feel like LinkedIn is kind of LinkedIn is closed. Like for some reason they you know, they've never been able to to scrape that. And then the other thing that's interesting for me on the PR side is like the media landscape has has shifted. There's not a lot as there's not as many like traditional publications, but I'm wondering if the influencers say are people that have LinkedIn followers or who write on substack or people who have podcasts. It's it'll be interesting to to understand if and if you're listening to this and you have any data on that email email is
[email protected]. Just I'm just curious. Okay, Rebecca, thank you for coming on the pod. Good job. Thanks for coming out and chatting about AEO. I hope people feel like they got a little bit smarter. I'll give you the mic one last time if you feel like there's something I should have asked you or we should have covered before we wrap. No, I think it's been a huge pleasure being on here, but I really hope all the markets you start there is kind of following the same things you can go and do yourself right now. You do not have to rely on an agency or developer to go and fix this stuff that will make your site good site. You website being cited by AEO. That's kind of a look at that. That's a marketing lesson right there. Agency owner saying you don't need to rely on us to go and do this. That's how you win trust and credibility, right? Yeah. All right. Good job, Rebecca. I'll see you soon. Appreciate you coming on on the podcast. Fine, Rebecca on LinkedIn Center of Message. Connect with our teller. You heard about her on my podcast that always makes me happy. Thanks for having me, Dave. Hey, thanks for listening to this podcast. If you liked this episode, you know what? I'm not even going to ask you to subscribe and leave a review because I don't really care about that. I have something better for you. So we've built the number one private community for B2B marketers at exit five and you can go and check that out. Instead of leaving a rating or review, go check it out right now on our website exit five dot com. Our mission at exit five is to help you grow your career in B2B marketing. There's no better place to do that than with us at exit five. There's nearly 5,000 members now in our community. People are in there posting every day asking questions about things like marketing, planning, ideas, inspiration, asking questions and getting feedback from your peers, building your own network of marketers who are doing the same thing you are so you can have a peer group or maybe just venting about your boss when you need to get in there and get something off your chest. It's 100% free to join for seven days so you can go and check it out risk-free and then there's a small annual fee to pay if you want to become a member for the year. Go check it out, learn more exit five dot com and I will see you over there in the community. [BLANK_AUDIO]
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