Who Will Bounce Back From Being Down 0-1, With Marcus Thompson

[MUSIC] Welcome to The We're Gonna WNBA Show. I'm Serious So He and Guys. Guys, if you like good hoops reporting, if you like Bay Area basketball, if you like poetry, you're gonna like Marcus Thompson of the Athletic. He is our guest today. He was at the Valkyries game one victory against the Las Vegas Aces. We will talk about that. We'll of course also talk about Atlanta beating the Liberty. Both Asia Wilson and Rianna Stewart, the players who have defined the finals for the last year are O and one going into game two. I am personally, as somebody who loves greatness. Very, very excited for that. Marcus Thompson is someone who just wrote a book about greatness. It's called Game Changers. It's about the go-to revolutionized basketball. I'm sure you're probably pretty excited for that possibility, for that situation as well. Oh yes, lit. Like, yeah, no, it's, it's, you know, it's really like giving me chills. And you know, I'm old, so it's hard to get chills, right? When you've seen, when you've seen what I've seen, like it takes a lot-- Yeah, when you had to unplug your AirPods and plug them back in to be able to-- Yes, you know what I'm saying, you know? Like watching, like, the real time, like, glow up of Gabby Williams. Like, becoming, like, how often do you get to watch somebody become a star? And it's just like, yo, this is really happening. It's happening in all year, like, she's been that, but, you know, it's the balconies, they're kind of under the radar, they're a new franchise. And the question was always, like, is this going to work in a playoffs, right? Is it going to, is it actually going to work? Like, it's cool, you got 30 wins, you got the number 2C. But, you know, A's just chilling, right? Branister was chilling. You know, the great ones, you got to beat them. Will this work? So, to watch, like, back to back games of, like, Gabby is like, yo, give me the ball. I will make the play. It's just like, yo, this is really happening. It reminds me of 2013, in Denver, when Steph Curry and Clay Thompson were anointed by their coaches. The greatest shooters of all time had to go out, back it up. No, it definitely feels like that. And ball hall, it does feel a bit like Oracle, you got to get to a game. I'm actually going to be a game too. So, I'm very, very excited for that. Word? Yeah, for real. Yeah, yeah. When do you rise? I don't know yet, but I will let you know. Okay, yeah. So, I'm happening very fast. You don't, you don't come to the bay when I'll say it, what's up? I may not pop up and see you in Media Row. Like, of course not. Of course not. Of course not. Not to you, not to you. But truly, so Gabby Williams has been probably after Asia and Stewie, the best performer in this postseason. She's third in postseason scoring. She's shooting the leather off the ball from the three-point line. And she's been important in key moments as well. I think that has also been a big question. It's something that I question. After Dallas won game two on the heels of that incredible Rikia Gumball Wally performance, I think the big question was like, okay. Well, who does Golden State have on the other side to be able to answer that call? And I'm wondering. So, before we get into, I do want to get into this idea of superstars versus strengthen numbers and the idea of the Valkyries being the kind of team that typically thrives in a regular season, but sometimes fizzles out in the postseason. For reasons like trend lines that we've seen forever in the postseason. I definitely want to get into that, but I do have to ask you since you talked about Steph Clay being anointed as the Splash Brothers in 2013. We also had Joe Laker, owner of the Valkyries, telling Kendra Andrews of ESPN, quote this, "Gabby Williams is the best player in the world." Look, if somebody has followed Laker for a while, who knows how he works and is watching this evolution. Like, what did you make of that? Yeah, it just felt like very typical Joe, right? This is the same guy who was like, yeah, I'm standing front of the crowd and say, we're about to raise a banner here. The little crowd was booing him. So it's like, it's just who he is. I think he operates in that world of hyperbole, set the bar really high, claim it, and then go get it. I don't think he actually thinks Gabby is the best player in the world. I think he thinks she's the best player in the world to him, right? And I'm going to say that out loud. So everybody know I'm riding with Gabby, and that's kind of part of the whole golden state way. We love people so much that we leave all your players so much that we're going to say these things about them, and they're going to love it here, that type of thing. It's tough to make that claim, but I understand why you said it. It's really, it's a flex because out of all the people they could have gone for, and that includes Kelsey Plum at the trade deadline. They wanted Gabby, right? They just wanted Gabby. And now to see this, this pan out this way, it's a, it's a flex for the organization, and Joe's not the type of owner to miss that, miss that opportunity to flex, right? Like, yeah, this is what I chose. This is who we, this is who we want it, and look at her. Look how smart we are. Mm-hmm. Wait, so like, I'm, I'm not aware of the end of now. It's, was there the Kelsey Plum thing? Were they close? Were they? They could have been there, and I just think they looked at it and decided we don't, we don't, we don't want to go that route. We like Gabby. I mean, part of the, the thinking is, like, how they have it set up works really well. So, and they believe in it. Even I was like, hey, you're gonna need a Kelsey Plum in the playoffs. Like, you and me, somebody go get you a bucket. Like, that was the thing. And they were like, yeah, nah, we, we're not getting into that sweepstakes because they felt so good about what they had. Even on draft day, you know, you, you, you get a, you get flage a, Johnson, and you're like, yeah, we don't really want that, right? Like, we don't, we don't want the person who kind of has this potential, because they're just looked to be this need. Last year, they lost in game two. They got swept by Minnesota. And there's like game two is close, and it was like, who gets the ball? You got a Veronica Burton. Kayla Thornton was out. She was the all-star. It's just like, who's getting the rock here? You know, Kate Martin. And they went with Chetchy's and Lassini, right? And it was like, all right, she can get the shot. So it's just like the, that's always just been a question. Like, who do you go to? And the NBA playoffs is really about that, even more than the NBA playoffs. Like, it's, it's beasts. Like, it's bosses. Like, okay, this is how it is. Like in the end, it comes down to do you have that player. So the fact that they kind of didn't even really look for opportunities. You know what I heard frequently in response? Like, oh, we just want to see how it goes because next year, you know, once Iliata Rupert gets back, right? Like, we got squat. Like, that was the, that was ideology. And it sounded crazy. But now if you look at it, it's like, you know, you know, defensive stretch big. Like, look, I'm really on a repair head. I just don't know how many, how many basketball people would say we don't need Kelsey Palm. Exactly. We don't need Olympian. Not we good guard best isolation score in the WNBA Kelsey Plum. And look like the question of, okay, who's going to have a rock at the end of the game? This is the animating question of basketball. Yes. Ever since it has become a spectator sport, right? It's a thing that you argue about with your friends. Like, oh, who has it? Do they have the guy? Do they have it? And to your point about the WNBA, in the last 17 years, not one WNBA team without a player, you could easily easily shoe in as a top 10 of all time has won a title. Like, last 17 years, every single title team has either had Asia, Stewie, Candice, Maya, Tamika, Diana, or Elena, Delodon. Some of them were on super. That's a crazy run, by the way. That's a super star. Yeah, that's crazy. This is a super star driven sport. It's a super star driven league. So for this golden state team, no superstar until, you know, superstar in the making, potentially Gabby Williams. Natalie and the Kasi using her depth. Yeah. Closing out with Caitlin Chen. We had an Amanita guy moment using 10 players. That was the wildest thing I've ever seen, by the way. Can you imagine? Look, I don't like making the crossover because I do think it's two different leagues, but it just underscores the uniqueness of what happened. Can you imagine a third string center getting playoff minutes against a legend? Like, it's like, yo, it just does. It would be like the Warriors saying, all right, let's throw it in Chris Bassie. Like, it just, you know what, there are these like key seminal moments in like sports and NBA history where I do remember that being the case. I even think about David Lee being thrown in for like four seven minutes or whatever in game four against the calves and it's just completely taking them out of what they do. I remember like Glenn Big Baby Davis and Nate Robinson winning huge games for the Celtics. I think that this is rare in the W unless there's an injury, you know like of course it's an injury and she came on two weeks ago they signed her September 20th. She just got to so when she brought in like were they like wow like we've been watching this French team a lot so she plays she played she played for the French national team. Was that something did they just scout her off of there and think like okay we should bring her in. I think so I think there was like okay we're gonna need some bodies. They've gone with Latissia me here as like the backup. They use a lot of Kayla Thornton as the small ball five and then for certain matchups you know you get Latissia but I think there's a I think Ohema Neon in the general manager new at some point I'm gonna need some size. I'm gonna need like a real big otherwise you just tear down Kayla who has to guard all of these big so perhaps this was a sign that Latissia hasn't arrived at the point where they feel fully comfortable with her guarding the bigger like she's a great athlete she runs well she's a good shop blocker but if you're looking at a West that has you got to deal with Asia or you got to deal with Asia you probably have to deal with Alia Boston you might have to deal with Atlanta right you might have to deal with John Quill Jones if you're looking at that you know it's like you know you kind of need we need something and I they've thrown her in for minutes but mostly like at the end of the season you can be able to get some run like there is no real loss here or remember when uh coming back from the fever break Natalie arrested the people who played they got a couple games off so no no Gabby no Chetchy no Janelle and now you like you need to play people even like you say you see take got some run so like in that setting but here you are and so the thing is like they don't play keyestokes a lot of minutes right uh she gets a she gets a fair she's a starter she's clearly critical but they'll go small after that so they'll keep her minutes down but in this series it's like who's guarding Asia there's just one option so it's like all right he is going to get a lot of minutes but you got to give her some breaks right and so they go to uh was it i'm a nada i don't want to mess that up how do you say it i'm a nada i'm a nada uh and it's like yeah let's see if you could just buy a few minutes and the size helps man Jackie drives to the whole she like pizzer off the glat like you know hold on oh no what's happening she just immediately she's like fronting Asia Wilson getting layoffs like the size is a huge issue i imagine like Becky Hammond is prepared for everything right but going from a series where they just play they have one day of prep you're not getting ready you're not getting ready for the player who was just they would just they just brought in from the French national team less than three weeks ago that is simply something you are not preparing for like it was just the cool part was you could see like the moment was big at first like there's a couple times where they're driving in dump off as she dropped it and it was like this okay let me get the fool by by the by the second half by the third quarter catching like fingertip post entry passes catch and turn her for the boy like just in like one game you saw like okay let me get all right i'm settled now like feed me the rock it was it was crazy it was wild it was i just had to experience that before it was unique it was a lot of foresight there man Natalie Nicosi her plan she measures them in centuries like this is this is a coach that's just a little bit different man um yes and the rest piece i think there's a lot of foresight there as well with the bakeries first 44 game season that also included a fee-bub break in which they knew that their players were going to be participating overseas i think that you know they were really really mindful of the fact that this was going to be a stretch along stretch run um it's potentially going to be the first w and b finals that actually goes to seven it could have gone to seven last year but we don't need to talk about phoenix um they were not um this could this is this is potentially like the longest stretch of basketball that w and b players have been asked to play um through a single season stretch so of course that's important and they've used their depth all season they've rested players after phoena um Veronica Burton gets a ton of rest in the second half of this game just yeah just sadder just just sadder and it's fine why you wrote about this actually like this how it's this is a team where none of those things really seem to matter because they go through the regular season knowing that oh this might not be my night so like when a key piece like Veronica Burton gets benched in a playoff series it's just par for the course like it's not something it becomes a big story because in that locker room it's not a big story can you imagine this happened like in another setting where team like you like you just benched your starting point guard for the second half like that's the story and as your team is a huge story when it happened with Olivia Miles just just last week that's the story and of course the Martha would have had to done it to Sabrina would have been huge stories once forget about Caitlyn Clark like it's and nope it wasn't a blink it was like okay yeah she's sitting she just and you ask her about it yeah Caitlyn was was hot like that and Veronica's the one who they don't rest like the problem with Veronica is you like she's the one who doesn't get the break typically she's got to play a lot of the minutes and she plays both ends and you know she's always on the floor she's always like physical and so much of the offense is centered on her breaking the paint so like she's like the workhorse who plays all the minutes everyone else Natalie is you can see it now like you like you said she she plant she's planted way ahead there were just moments during the season where you're like you know at some point are you bringing Gabby back in like what is happening like there's four minutes left and she's been sitting the entire fourth quarter it's like is she done is she hurt like those moments have happened all year even the last game of the season where the two seed or the three seed was on the line and they're down against the sparks you know and the sparks are playing like will breeders because it's neka's last game yeah you want to send a legend out and it was like a game and she's sat it was like oh they're just gonna be fine with the three seed and not bring Gabby back and Gabby comes back with like three minutes left it's the biggest shot of the night so we've seen Natalie do this all year and and live it feels like what is happening but like looking at the total pitcher she just kind of knows she could probably tell when her players are tired like she just knows that she has to have time she has to have time and I think she knows she's asking a lot of them this is a number one defense in the WNBA they're scatting report awareness their preparation is higher than just about anybody I've seen in basketball and it takes a lot of effort it takes a lot of effort to clamp down the way that they do so she understands that she's so she's not going to run them out for 40 minutes at a time yeah I wonder I didn't get to talk to Veronica last night but I want to ask like like as a player how hard is that where it's like yes Caitlin's going yeah and they never were really out of control of that game like it just felt like they were just controlled again just how hard is it to really sit and watch that because they've never this this the other thing they've never done this before this is their second playoffs right yeah they've never these players haven't been in the situation before where okay this is my third playoff game of the season and I'm sitting on the bench for the whole second half like how do they how much mental preparation and ideology right has gone into building their mind so that and game one that gets to the fifth of chance you're sitting the second half and you're like still able to lock it in the game yeah I don't know many basketball players who could do that and not be calling over a quarter afterwards and be like this Cody like we're the agents agents putting out the bad signal yeah um one thing I find really interesting as a wrinkle for Natalie is of course um she did the most Asian American thing in game three of the first round uh why every Asian I know sent me to say I've heard that like 10 times well she knows how to appeal to the Bay Area demographic of both like tech tech workers and Asian Americans was straight up in the middle of a stressful work day just collapsing and getting right back up not all in all seriousness so obviously uh you know you wish her the best with her health and like uh you know it's it's good to see that she's she's you know up in atom and doing okay and she made a statement about kind of prioritizing her health and and living with balance and stuff like that um which is also just honestly I will say say another Asian American diaspora through line and more modern one right now. Like ambition versus rest. Like she's never been more fountains, she is representing. She is the tension between those two forces right now is big time representation. And she's right now. And now she's in the biggest moment of her career thus far. Somebody who has her entire philosophy, her entire credo, the way that she's gotten here is by being more hardworking, more prepared than anybody else. She's a five foot one and a half UCLA walk on that in turn her way to this position. Uh, she shouldn't be here if not for her work ethic. And now in this moment where not only is it the biggest moment of her career as a coach, she is going up against the team that she has the most scouting report awareness and knowledge of in the Las Vegas aces. A team that she used to be an assistant coach for, you know, has been key part of the development of a lot of their players. Specifically, Jackie Young who really struggled, um, you know, and I just wonder what it's like to have to in this in this moment where you have so much wealth that you could of knowledge that you could be imparting. And of course, are, um, you have to now take the advice that you've given your players all season. You have to rest. You have to slow down. You have to lean on your assistant coaching staff. You have to do the strength in numbers. You have to trust the process of the rest. Um, it's just such a, like this is somebody talks about emptying the tank. She literally emptied the tank, you know, um, and literally, and now she's like thinking about how to change her into the take got back up. It can't go for real. Like, honestly, obviously, yeah. So what, what then, you know, it's funny. I'm curious how much does she hate having to keep it? Because you know, everybody's like, man, are you okay? How you do it? I bet on that it drives a crazy. She has to answer this a million times. How are you? Are you okay? Are you drinking your water? Are you eating like, yeah, yeah. Okay, are you, are you, did you, did you eat? Is just, it's just I love you. In any, in any, amongst, and anybody evasion here. It's like, that's just, like, that's just three words. You can tell us, but like, I'm fine. I'm fine. I thought it was revealing and probably because she's, like you said, had to take her old medicine that she's like, yeah. She, you know, she basically volunteered that, you know, uh, because the power and land in Tatum, they like alternated bringing a message in the huddles because she was having, you know, she's still feeling the effects, right? Of working herself to the bone to create a champion. So the fact that she was able to say that, right? But outside of that, it was like, like, she's fine. Like, that's the messaging she's fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. Other people, you've been talking to people. She's fine. She's fine. It was clear the message would say she's fine. Yeah, yeah. And like the kind of she's fine that lets you know she's not fine. Right? Where she's like, if you got to keep saying, oh, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. Yeah, it's like when your girlfriend says she's fine. Yes, that you know it's over. Yeah. If I get my wife is like, what's wrong? Oh, no, I'm fine. Oh, man. Here we go. It's over. What did I do? She's talking to you like your age order. So yeah, it's interesting. She, she, I wonder how she manages this because, like you said, this is, I mean, it could be the WBA finals if they, if they win this series. And there's never, they probably never felt more convinced they could win this series than after game one. So interesting to see, does she pace herself and be smart? Or is it like, nah, like they're, I rest in the off season, right? Right. I mean, I don't know. You probably have to do a little bit of both, right? And there's ways, I think, frankly, like if you mean on the people around you, like Golden State also has one of the most filled out steps that we have in, in the WNBA as well. They have a ton of different hires. They have a pretty deep coaching staff. There are probably, this is probably a good learning lesson for her as well. Because like you, you do have to lean on the people around you in moments like this and in order to win as well. Like you got to leave out the mantra, right? And I think, I think it'll be interesting for her. What do you think Joe Masuda told her? Yo, Joe Mas. I have been thinking about that. I haven't been thinking about that. So for anybody who doesn't know, Joe Mozilla, the Boston Celtics head coach has been a huge mentor for Natalie. Noah Dullzell, friend of the show, actually wrote a story about this for espionation when Natalie Nacasi first took the job. Noah also covers a Celtic. So I think she was kind of, you know, it was a good mind meld for her, good, good reporting instinct as well to uncover that. But Nacasi, when she first got this job, now the, the Valkyries and another moment of manifestation, they have a goal to win a title in the first five years of this franchise. That's something that Joe Lake go blade out. It's the first thing he said to Natalie during their like first meeting. He wants to win a title in five years. So Natalie wanted to, was asking herself a question of like, how do I pick the brains of head coaches that have won quickly? Mozilla won a title in his second year as a Celtics coach. Natalie is now in her second year. As, as the Celtics coach, and I think that it's really interesting, like having covered that title, that title Celtics team and also covering this team because there are so many similarities in the ways in which that they use statistics, analytics, and philosophy to try to bridge the gap of not necessarily having that superstar player and trying to neutralize that superstar player. Like, the Valkyries pretty much play Mizzoula ball. They are, I think, dead last no league at three pointers allowed on defense. And I think that they are number one in attempts. So they're trying to win that analytics battle and makes their like top four and offensive rebounds. I think they're top four and like turnovers forced. So what they're trying to do, and they also play the slowest pace in the league. It's what they're trying to do is they're trying to win the possession battle. And also get the best quality of shots as well. And, but also while like playing a conservative offensive style that doesn't risk them giving up a lot of points in transition. Like, I remember during the Celtics finals, Ron, the, like, people would always be pissed. Jason Tatum's taking like these above the break, break threes, right? And with the Valkyries, it's like, they're always kind of taking isolation shots. And at clock, though, they're always going to have floor balance. Like that's a big reason that they play half court basketball. And they don't get too crazy with their execution late in the clock. They want to be able to get back on defense. And Joe was always seen the game as sort of like he was very inspired by Pep Guardiola and soccer. So he kind of sees the floor is like, it's not like offense and defense. Like they both, you mean she Pep Guardiola? You mean man city? Look, I'm not, I'm not a big Pep Guardiola guy. So like, if you want to, if you want to get off any shot, it's, uh, I'll just shots. You still a goat to me. I'm going with it. Hey, winning is ugly. I think that's something that, um, not everybody likes to acknowledge. I'm winning is generally ruthless and ugly. And we actually shouldn't valorize anybody who wins because you kind of have to be the worst. A lot of the times to do it. Um, I think one of those staples of the Missoula ball, too, is the, the valuing of the energy. Like the, the style of play requires you just got to be one of those people who don't stop. Yeah. And they just really like locking on those players. But it's why, you know, they make the choice to be like, yeah, Caitlin Jen. Like we're going to get rid of Kay Martin. We'll take Caitlin Jen, uh, Natalie loves those type of players. Like I will go all day. I will fight you to the death, right? And give me 12 players like that. And I won't, I won't ever complain. I'll be, I'll be in line with the program. Yeah. Like it feels like, it feels like that sense of like, Hey, let me go. Let me, let's watch this movie to get us frothed out of the house before we go play basketball. All right. Like that's, it feels like she's got that in her. Well, think about Caitlin Jen's trajectory. Princeton to Yukon transfer in her final year. She is a third round draft pick. She gets waived multiple times. This is somebody who can't afford to be any any other way. Much like Natalie herself was when she was a player as well. She, there's a ton of players on Golden State that have that ethos. Even Gabby Williams is not somebody that people thought could be a superstar. She was doing things in France that frankly in the WNBA, people weren't thinking that she could do. So I do think this entire team has that same dog and that same resolve and that same perpetual hunger, Veronica Burton, great example as well. Like she's like probably the biggest representation of of that ethos as well. So and that's, you know, that's, that's, that's them being able to develop players. That's them being able to identify the type of people that they want on their team. It's, it's, it's really smart. I'm asking a question. So Asia Wilson single coverage, most of the game against Kia Stokes, of course, which she does make it a little bit difficult. But with Asia, it's always hard because it's like this. Did you make it difficult or did she kind of miss, miss shots? Because first half of the game, Asia couldn't, couldn't miss a shot. Do you think that the Valkyries can win this series continuing to defend it way? They are going single coverage on Asia and just trying to shut everybody else down? I think that's the way they can win it. Because like you said, I mean, this whole idea of let's take away the three and make the race. I just think there's a part of them that are like, we'd rather live with Asia making 20, 20. And then allow, then allow her to spray the ball because we double and and that's Asia show, right? Like, you know, even though it's such a beautiful shot, right? And it looks so easy when it goes in that you could also feel like a bit demoralized. Like you didn't make her work, right? And I think that's why Kia Stokes is so important because who's dealt with that more than Kia Stokes and, you know, so this like it's part of it is going to be having somebody who can just take that on the chin. It's like, all right, yeah, it's going to, she might get a lot of points, it's going to look beautiful. People are going to go crazy talking about how great she is, but if she's just making twos, you can beat that. That's what they have to live with now and that's where the type of player you have because you know, a lot of people don't like it cooked, right? And got to fight. You got to make it work and then put, I remember, I know I keep doing this. I said, I don't like it. But in 2018, where the Houston Rockets game plan was just to go at Steph, and it was like Steph, they decided we're not coming to help. Like, we want him to just go at you every time and you got to take it. He's going to score. He's going to hit some shots. He's going to make some fancy moves. But over the course of seven games, he's not going to up, he's not going to hold up, right? It's that philosophy. I think, because if you start doubling Asia, you activate Jackie Young, Chelsea Gray, and you know, they got plenty, you know, I don't know when Dana Evans is coming back, but she's a problem. You know, Stephanie Talbot makes it back into the series, like she can hit shots. And that's where the ACE is kind of break you. It's like while you're trying to deal with Asia, you have all this other stuff. They they went with the straight up, and you notice, as a result, who they're not playing. This is where it gets tricky, sir. You cannot play Chetchy, and you cannot play Jamel, and you especially can't play them together. If this is how you're going to play, because you can't have two places to attack. You might get away with one, but you can't have two. So what we've seen is Natalie, like, I mean, Janelle won the six woman of the year, six person year award, and those are the two shot makers. There's a tough shot making like clutch players. So you're also like, you're exchanging a philosophy there. Absolutely. I think that they're just saying, like, if Asia scores 40, and the rest of them score 30, we win. Yeah. Right. Like, that's I think. And then the way Asia plays, too, like you just kind of like not, you can't foul or you can't sit there doing a parade to the line, because that's how she gets to three instead of two. But and that's where it's like, OK, put Kia Stokes on her, let her, you know, and that's where the Amana comes in. If she can give you 10 minutes on her, yeah, the philosophy, which is wild to think, I don't know who saw this coming outside of Natalie, but or it may be Gabby who play with her on an Asia team. But it's like, it's insane. I think they stick with it. And if you keep Jackie Young down, if you keep Chelsea great inefficient, that's how you win the series. No matter what Asia does. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think, I think are right. I think they go as Jackie Young goes, and I thought Gabby was great on her, too. Like Gabby just was on her right hand, all game, all game like it was, and you know, Jackie tries to do the step through to get back to the other side, but then you're taking unbalanced shot as well. And she'll make more of those as well. I felt the aces miss shots before we move on to New York versus Atlanta. One more thing. That's a highlight some Asia Wilson stats Wilson in her last four games after playoff losses, the most recent being against Indiana, 36 points, 10 rebounds 11 for 18 with two blocks. Now we go back to last year, 35 points, eight rebounds, five assists, four steals and four blocks, also against Indiana, 25 points, nine rebounds, one assists, five steal to two blocks. Yeah. Winters coming. Yes. Look, it's going to be scary to take a told y'all last time, take the over, take the over on Asia Wilson. Yeah, it's going to be and they just don't have many options either like you're seeing them. They're running actions and then and she'll end up with Gabby behind her and Kayla and you know, sometimes with some of these players, well, you know, what I think they're going to try to do. Yeah. They're going to try to run some more inverted screens like use the guards as screeners. Gabby's going to have to switch. They're going to have her driving. They're going to have her going downhill and they're going to try to force the help to come from the corners, I think. And they, if you leave any of them smaller players behind Asia, like she's torching that she punishes the smaller defender better than anybody in the league. Like she, they're, she is merciless, right? She's not taking, she's not taking a tough shot either. It's like, I'm getting to my spot and I'm shooting over you and you could just see it like Kayla thorns too small and Kayla thore has been a great small ball defensive center. I don't matter. It does. She's a master. She's always a big match, but it doesn't, like she, she just knows she has everything in her bag. She can go faster than you. She can shoot over you. She can post you up and she generally as a series goes on. She starts to figure out like who she should do what against as well, which is why ultimately there are players who make it difficult for her at times, but no one actually solves Asia Wilson. All right. Okay. Well, what, what, what else somebody, like, somebody else going to show up? All right. So Atlanta versus New York, this was the other game that happened on Sunday. Atlanta wins in a huge one. I thought they needed this victory after at least a gray went down and Dewana Bonner had the game. You'll speak of the old heads, man, oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. This has been kind of like, like, you know, it's, it's on. Almost like the story of, of the post season, the story of the season. Like, there are any long term trends here. It's like in a season where it's like, okay, offensive explosion, new guard, scoring guards, all of that, like, rule changes. Okay. Well, Paige is out. Caitlin's out. Olivia's out. It's Asia versus Stewie. Um, the hard knows defensive minded dream team, we're just like bangs with you and out physicals. You wins game one. The number one defense in the WNBA wins game, too. Like, as much as things have changed, you're kind of staying the same. Right. And you know what I, you know who I love for this? I'm, I'm just Jordan Canada. I mean, shout out to the old head, even though like she looks pretty much the same, right? The, like, Jordan Canada's ability to just matriculate defenses, right? Like, it's just, it's, like, if she's going to figure this out, like, I'm going to drown you. Um, like, she's, she's just, she's just relentless that way. The amount of pressure she just puts on your defense, because she's just going to figure out a way. It was, you know, in that style, like when it, when it becomes hard, those ones are grind like that. Like her speed becomes so much more valuable, because everything becomes good like it. She's just so savvy at it. But I also, I loved watching, I was like, look, it's, look at Jordan, manly, nobody talks about Jordan Canada and somehow she decides series, right? So this is going to, I'm curious what Chris DeMarco does to deal with that. Because you could spend all your time trying to stop, you know, making sure Ryan Howard doesn't get going. And obviously, you know, even though she didn't play, I don't know what, what you're saying to resuppose a great, I would say so I want to talk about it a bit, yeah. You know, it's sometimes like the, the what she requires to deal with her rebound is a, is an issue all to itself. She just makes other teams like go into a game like, I have to like, well, they have to go over. They have to. It doesn't matter how what she finishes it, like, the amount of time she got doubles, because she doesn't finish the original shot, she's going to get the rebound. As much more likely to be an end one, it's going to cause problems. You also just don't want to give up second chance. You just don't want to give up. Yes. And she, she weighs on, she weighs on a defense in a way that like, you know, you got to know who to understand the value. I think she ended up with like 17 points. So it was a good offensive game for her. So even though she didn't have the amount of rebounds, like, I'm curious how they respond to that, because they have to, you just have to account for injuries every single time down. But it means you are like, she's a normal, normal player. Like, I think they sag on her. And then it actually allows her to get more momentum going towards the rim and then all the sudden, like, JJ's on skates, whereas I think if you actually guarded her like a regular player, you could also stain your defensive principles as well. Honestly, I just thought that they kind of did a couple of things on defense that I didn't love. And then when I go to the court in Canada, she gets four threes, a lot of that is because of how they're guarding Ryan Howard, like they're putting Sabrina UNESCO and Ryan Howard. And then they're bringing over help. Ryan Howard, I thought, had one of the better five or 20 games that I've ever seen because of her aggressiveness. She had eight assists and eight rebounds as well. But a lot of it was really just like, she's like, well, I'll drive to the nail. You're going to bring the hell. I'll spray it out to Jordan Canada. And they're hoping that Jordan Canada misses and look, that's not a bad mathematical bet. Um, but what ultimately you can't do if you're in New York is you can't get out shot and out produce from the three-point line. That's not how you're going to win this series. Not if you're already going to be given up what you're giving in the paint as well. You have to, you have to win one of those. You have to win one of those. Like it's such a rare game for New York to shoot as well as they did and to still lose. And it's because Atlanta nearly matched their production for the three-point line. So that to me has to change. Like what's Dewey on here? puts Dewey on her and go one-on-one. Those were kind of like the best possessions because then Ryan would just try to create herself and would end up taking some mid-range shompers. But when you're like bringing in the help, she's a great passer. She's going to spray it out to the shooters. And Atlanta, like Golden State, they love getting offensive rebounds and they love shooting threes. They love it and they love getting out. They love going and that's where the speed of Jordan comes in. I'm curious. Do you think I was watching that game thinking I could really use bit Nigelini right now? Yeah, of course. Of course. Well, they need someone who's physical. They need someone who's going to get just 16 game. Sorry. What is it? What is it? What is the WV version? It's three, no two, three, and four. So what is that? A nine game player. You're a nine game player. Yeah, you need your nine game player. She's a nine game player. Yeah. Yeah. Don't want to watch like the one of honor is a nine game player. That's where you go. Yeah. You go get somebody who will help you get nine wins in the playoffs. And one of like, I mean, that's a part of the the the the moxie of playoffs start them, right? Like just sometimes it's just willingness. And the one upon her ain't been scared. You know what I'm saying? It's the third grade, right? For sure. There's a shot. She she's not she's not shy about anything. She took 18 shots. And she was not shy about taking it at Brianna Stewart. A lot of people these days they get within Brianna Stewart's radius. They don't even want to shoot the basketball. She didn't care. She's not passing up shots against Brianna Stewart. It's it's part of two like the the the the quadri of New York is I mean, they've been in Brianna. Save us for so long. That like, I do they know what to do when Brianna's like, okay, you know, 13 shots, 19 points. Like for most people, that's like a good night, but yeah, that they've just been it. I mean, even like Team USA is like, everybody's like, hey, Brianna Stewart, you got it. Like do they have I mean, I guess she's only got to do it three times. So that's where you like, okay, it was there like, you know, Atlanta got it. But well, they need to get her going. Like you can't rely on her as much as you do. And then also not really get her going as well. Like they just the ball didn't find her enough. Like that has to be a big adjustment for them in game. Can she get it when she didn't go play for Natalie? She just want can you get a day off? She's watching she watched she did that. Then watch Veronica sit in the second half. Straight up. Oh my god. She did play 40 minutes though. But yeah, if you're going to play her 40 minute, 13 shots is just right. It's not enough. It's not enough shots. It's not enough. And look, look, as far as defensive combinations go on Brianna Stewart, I'd say Angel Reece, Nas Hillmute and Brian Howard is probably it's pretty much like what you'd want against someone like Brianna Stewart. So it's not going to be easy. But Serena said it after the game. She's like, you know, like, I don't like care how much I score in a loss. Like I need to get these guys going. So I do think that's something that we're immediately thinking about after the game. I want to tell people Angel Reece. Well, I love Nas Hill. Yeah, you know, I love, I love Nas Hill. That is your jam. You know, that's like a type of player. Yes. That is my type of player. Like I love Nas Hillman. Angel Reece, I am fascinated by what it is that activates for her in big games. Like going back to high school, going back to college, the fact that she's playing in the second round of the postseason in her first ever postseason, like appearance and she looks this ready. She looks this poised. She looks this aggressive. She had four steals in this game. Her just like getting into the passing lanes, her getting out in transition, her and the want to bond her together as well. Like when you have that size and size and their switchability, that combination has been great for Atlanta in the four time that it's been together. But like just, I don't know, like it's just, I'm just like, what reservoir are she reaching into right now? And how is she, you know, this combination of like, yes, she's a young player. She should be excited. She should have the motor, but the fact that she's also just kind of had the resolve in the big moments has been super impressive to me. And three three steals to right for her. I remember that four. One of three blocks was it four steals and three blocks is just, you know, the part about, you know, the the the oxymoron that is Angel Reece is that she's so so glamour. But she is in just the ultimate gamer. Yeah. Like and what she does is really the stuff that matters in big games, right? Like, you know, and we've we've heard these same like talks and, you know, the little things and, you know, you know, any given Sunday, right? We fight for that edge. It's all about these like kind of intangibles will. And the thing about Angel is while I really think she's got to fix her shot like near the basket and in her form and her technique, all the other stuff is everything you'd want in the winter. Yeah, even at like LSU like just the mindset of somebody who wants to go get the ball. Like, there's not a single coach who doesn't teach that. The way she is hyper aware on rotations and how and how she times herself on blocks. Like, this is somebody who is just there's a switch that's like, oh, we're playing ball now, right? It's almost like, yeah, I know you saw me at the Met Gala and I was hot. But are we hooping? Are we hooping hooping? All right, let's go. And there's like a very Baltimore bread kind of gamer there. Like, all right, let's let's go. You know, I'm about to tie my hair up. I'm about to take my earrings off. And we're about to slap the floor and play. That stuff really shines and in moments like, I just want to win. And you know, the players like Dremont Green get a lot of credit for that type of stuff, right? Derek White, you know, these players who sometimes their impact, their overall impact gets lost because they just do all the other stuff. I mean, just something to simple, you know, playoff time comes. Who's not really, who's not within the fight through screens as the team is going to like show you the team is going to lose by the players who die on screens. Like that's just going to happen. Angels got that. She's, she's got it, man. She's got that let's play. It's time to win edge to her. So I might be a rebound. It might be a stop. It might be a bucket. You look her. She was on point with her offense. Like, it was like, okay, smart shots. She wasn't just throwing it. She wasn't flailing. She wasn't trying to draw files. It was under control. It's, it's amazing for somebody to be that glamorous to also have that switch to be like, yeah, let's get, let's get down a dirt. Just play. You feel me. Yeah. It's like, let's go. Y'all ready to play. Let's go. Yeah. Let's just take some of this again. How are you? Yeah, it is. It is. It is. I think also like her anticipation of what New York was going to do was really impressive as well. Like they come off, they came off this series against the Minnesota links where the back court pressure, the ball pressure dealing with his like Courtney Williams and Olivia Miles was on one leg. And the FISA Collier is like 80% of herself. Now you're dealing with Ryan Howard Jordan, Canada and Angel Reese. Like, you just have to be ready for that in a different way than they have and turn like turnovers are a huge story in the Mystic series. And I think they're a huge story in this one as well. New York can see it's 32 points off of turnovers. This is what Atlanta does. They don't really like to run their half court offense. If they can afford not to, they won't do it. You know, like they've they've been better. They much rather run. Like they've been better at that with Duana Bonner. But like that's their weakness, right? So if you can actually just like execute your offense on a higher level, I think you can flip the tenor of this series a little bit going like and try to actually steal a game in Atlanta. But if you don't run your offense, then they're going to just continue to get those deflections. They're going to just shove the ball down your throat in the paint in transition. And it's going to be a long night. Yeah, I watched them oddly enough. I thought that would be the the foil for them against I think for the vouchers against them. It's the team that guards a three point line. Take very patient on offense, right? And harps about not turning it all over the end. They have a hard time against teams to do that. Then I was like, how come this team is having such a hard time with with the vouchers with all these athletes, but they they just feed off your mistakes. I mean, I mean, just look at the athleticism they have, right? Like it's they're ready to go. Yeah. And I don't know New York gets fed up pretty easily. They just you can just speed them up, right? And it becomes like, all right, Brianna, get the ball to Brianna and save it. I don't know. I wonder if they can solve this problem of just being cool. Like, all right. Yeah. Sometimes it was like, hey, I got the rock. Calm down. I want to see that. But Sabrina should be able to do that. Sabrina is a champion, right? Sabrina should be able to do that. I do think she had some moments. - No, she's good, she know how to do it. She can do this. The end result just ended up in being a lot of shots. I think Atlanta preferred that. And that was the thing, like she said, I gotta get, like sometimes if she takes 20 shots, they might be good shots, but it's so much better for Atlanta that she takes shots than for Brianna to get open. 'Cause they have answers for how to guard Sabrina. - Mm-hmm. - The answers to where she's doing is just-- - If Lish doesn't play, then it makes it a little bit harder, certainly. Then you kind of have to choose between Pauline and Sabrina and Pauline. They could really, like either of those players, they could really get going. They started the game running a play for Pauline, so I thought they would do that a lot more. They got her going down, you know, and then we just didn't really see much from her for the rest of the game. You want me advice for your boy CD? - I'll call Steve Kerr. You see, that's what he should have, no. (laughing) See if we're, can they sign, but nod your back and they, so she's out. Can they go get us? - No, I wouldn't, I can't do that. I do wonder what, just watching it, I was thinking maybe invert it, put, put, let's do it at some point, put her at point more. I think at Lionel just switched that. - I think they will too. - Yeah. - And it still gives Stewie the ball. - Yeah. - And now she gets to get a feel for it. I also thought watching this, that this was definitely a field game. I think the Liberty were a little bit fine with-- - You can't have field games. Like, why do we have to use the NBA playoffs? - I think you just can't. - You have to win. - You got to fight. I mean, but if you lose on the road in the openers, like, all right, let's, it just felt like they weren't doing things to change it, right? It just felt like there's some, like there's a third quarter. I think the runs were happening and they just, they just kind of like, oh, we'll figure it out. I think where they were minus 17 and in the third quarter. So I do feel like, and then this is also-- - Well, their quarter, they gave up like, what, six deals in a row or something? - Yes, and saying, and I look, they have an NBA coach. They have an NBA coach, who-- - This is what you do, who? You feel, right? It's like, all right, let's see what they got. Now let's hit the, you have an-- - You have a coach-- - It's a different league. - I know. - It's a different league. - So it's first playoffs, it is. If they win game two, then it's genius. Right, you got away with it, you got the split. - You got what you needed. - Yeah, you got it. - Now you don't win. - You're in trouble, because the old two, in a five game series is-- - Big time trouble, if they don't win. - That's tough, that's tough. So I do think there was a part of them. That's like, we feel like we could win, but let's not-- - For sure. - The requisite urgency didn't feel like it was there. - Yeah, I feel you. All right, Marcus, you wrote-- I mean, you were a writer of books. You have written many a great book. I have stolen from much of much writing. - You're writing. - You know, you cannot steal. You're too good. - You probably steal everything. - Fast and loose with the word steal, right? It was a great quote. It's like, good writers, borough, great writers steal, outright. - Absolutely. - That's a good question. - But you have written another book. It's about the goats who have revolutionized basketball. It also includes chapters. It includes chapters about players in the NBA. And the WNBA. But it also includes chapters about Caitlin Clark and Candace Parker. Am I missing another WNBA player in here? - Am I a Moore's in here? - My Moore. - Cheryl Miller. - Cheryl Miller. - Is that it? That might be it. I don't remember. I wrote it a while ago. - It just came out. It just came out. You're supposed to be like in the throes of promoting this. I won't lie. I've been very busy with the playoffs. I was only able to read the introduction, which made me really excited. I think the concept that you have of looking at greatness through a staircase of players building on each other as opposed to comparing them, outright, is very interesting. But I was wondering, has that theme come up for you at all while watching this post season? - It has actually, it makes me think about the people I've hit in list, who didn't make the cut. And it's like, ooh. But, one of the toughest people who didn't make the cut was Aja Wilson. And mostly because I think she probably should have been, I have these anomalies. These kind of one-offs, the people who don't. Who they would have changed the game, except they're just not replicable, like Shaquille O'Neal. - Right, yeah. - Just like there won't be another shack. But you start to see, the other part that comes up is, I mean, just being transparent basketball is such a global sport. And it's all written from an American perspective. You know, so it's just like, jeez. What are we not knowing based on a global game in a presentation of basketball that's so NBA, WNBA-centric? But the idea of watching these abilities, like players like Olivia Miles and the quote unquote struggles, maybe think about how this is the road for every one of them, all of the great ones. Magic was tragic Johnson, right? Like, you know, Steph Blue was really one Lee. And you're like, wow, Olivia in her rookie year became an MVP candidate and then flamed out in the playoffs. Like, this is the start of the story, right? There's gonna be really like a comeback now and it's already happening. So that was interesting to think about like, because part of what I wanted to do with this book is number one to get away from the just tired goat debate where we just constantly talking about who's the best and the conversation is so old that the answers now is just to integrate pre-missions. It's just like, oh man, Jordan played against plumbers. It's like, this is where we are. We're really talking about this. - You know, I just feel like there's also the strings that plumbers keep catching in all of this is something that we don't talk about. Plumbing is gonna be only viable profession 30 years from now. And this is how we talk about that. - Plumbing is an honorable profession. - It's a look for the profession. - Yeah. - And it's not going anywhere. It's not going anywhere. - Like plumbers, there I say the plumbers of outlasted, the sky hooks, they've outlasted anything. - Jordan will do. - We've had plumbers since before the three-point line. We've had plumbers since before and after hand checking. I'm just like, can we put some respect on it? - We have plumbers way before that. - Before the invention of basketball. - Plumbing, yeah. - It might be the second oldest profession in the world, perhaps. - As long as there's been exclamation. - Yeah, exclamation was a better way to put it, yeah. - No, you're about to get in your bag, I'm bad. I wish I didn't preempt that with a word. You would've lit it. - Well, I do want to give you some cover for not having Asia in this because this is a book about players who revolutionized basketball. And I think if anything, Asia, Asia is like a, is a symbol of basketball orthodoxy. - Absolutely. - She knows everything you're supposed to do in basketball at the four positions, just better than everybody else. - That was literally the argument. It's like, I can't say she changed the game. - She's just the master of the game that we know. - She's just the master of it, right? So it's just like watching Asian, it's like, the bag pedal, it's like top five coolest ever. - Mm-hmm. - You know, like, it's like, it's cold in Asian, it's the Wayne Wade, but it's like, you cannot, like the back, how do you master a back pedal, bruh? Like, that's where she's at another level. Where in here, you know, lefty, sweet jumper, and then, bruh, I just want the back pedal. - No, she's, I'm about ready to call her to go. It's gonna be tough. - No, she, maybe she should be like the solo subject for your next book. - Oh, I'm with that. - I would agree to the fuck out of that, yeah. Asian make a great book, one question. She's just so good. It's just, it's a sad, it is. It really is a treat to be able to watch this live, especially, I never thought I would be here from like a growing up watching a woman's basketball. - Oh man, okay. - I never thought I would be here. - All right. - What? - I thought you were gonna, I really didn't think I was gonna be here right now. - Oh, you see. - You're like, whoa, you're like minute 59, Marcus. It's a crazy book, I dropped it. - No, I didn't think I'd be like covering the best women's basketball players at this. - She's like, you're gonna drop the bombshell confession. - Oh my god. - The more he's types and memoirties. I'm sorry I'm sorry go on. No, no, no, we're good. Let's just leave it at that tease. You know, I didn't know if I would be here. Mm-hmm. And on the next episode of The Bringer WBH show. Marcus, I'm so happy you're here. And I'm so happy you were here recording this podcast with us. Truly appreciate you. So excited to see you in the Bay. So excited to experience Valca Tres, can't wait. Truly, this job is the fucking best. This is probably also the best. I'm thrilled that, you know, we're just we're just getting to talk some lovely hoop right now. Where can people buy your book? I would say anywhere you buy books, but co-find a local bookstore. That's what I want to ask. Go find a nice independent shop and support your local bookstore. And they probably have a couple, but order five, you know, give them out. Yeah. Give them to your friends. Also, don't don't don't you come out here. I'm telling you, if the first time I see you is on Media Road, you have a problem. But what if it's like shoot around? It's the first time I see you. Why does shoot around? Does anybody shoot around? I think they're might get shoot around. But yes, I once once my travel and everything is finalized, I will let you know and we will figure something out. Because I need some of that. You got to guess the count. So I need someone. Yeah, no, for sure. We're like when expenses meal on the ringer. You know, we can get it. Ben Cruz can join us. Ben, yeah, I forgot. I don't see Ben while he's out here. We been like, well, well, there's probably like 15 minutes from me right now. I never heard it. It's crazy. Well, I think we have actual text message evidence of him reaching out to you and you're potentially big timing him. So I think I think that might have made it exactly what happened. But it's okay. The big time you're big time. You can't help it. I can't. Well, thank you. Thank you for your understanding. Yeah, it's far. It's lonely on the top. And my life. Yes, it's hard. It's really hard. You know, I don't think I will be here. Okay. Marcus, thank you so much. I appreciate you. We'll be back after the next slate of Game 2s. Thank you to Victoria Valencia, the go for stepping up and producing this one. They couldn't keep us away from each other. It had had to had to bring the duo back or the postseason. Thank you just to find Anderson. As always, and thank you to Ben Cruz, our guy. And you all take care. Be safe. Touch grass. All that stuff.