Who Should Get Producer Credit? w/ Grant Heslov

For over 35 years Todd Garner has overseen blockbuster films like Conair, Anchor Management, Triple X, 13 Going on 30 and the Mortal Kombat franchise. Why are they letting you make these movies? Join Todd as he shares tips and stories from the front lines of producing in Hollywood. I'm Adam Sandler. I'm Rebel Wilson. This is Jeff Broke. I'm Kaley Quoco. I'm Eli Roth. This is Molly Ways. Hey it's Ed Helms. This is Shay Mitchell. Everybody this is Kevin James and this is the producer's guide. The producer's guide. The producer's guide with Todd Garner. Todd Garner. Todd Garner. Todd Garner. Todd Garner. What a combination. Welcome to the producer's guide podcast on your host, Todd Garner. Today we have a truly exceptional guest. His name is Grant Hezlov. He's a multi-talented force in the entertainment industry. Grant is the producer, writer, director, and actor known for his remarkable collaborations with George Clooney at Smokehouse Pictures. With four Academy Award nominations to his name, he won an Oscar for Best Picture for the film Argo, and earned nominations for the Ides of March and Good Night and Good Luck, the latter which he co-wrote with Clooney. Grant's impressive producing credits span a diverse range of films, including The Boys in the Boat, Ticket to Paradise, The Midnight Sun, and The Tender Bar. He currently serves as executive producer and director of the Showtime Series, The Agency, and has also made his mark on television with projects like Catch 22 and Trial by Media. Most recently, Grant and George co-wrote and produced the Broadway adaptation of Good Night and Good Luck, earning five Tony nominations and making history as the first Broadway play to be broadcast live on television. Join us as we deep dive into Grant's fascinating journey through Hollywood and explore the artist storytelling in both film, television, and theater. Enjoy. All right, I'm here with Grant Hezloff. Hello, sir. How are you today? I'm doing great. How about you? Excellent. I've been wanting to talk to you for quite a while, because I've been a fan for years and have dredges for even longer, because I've known George longer. And I wanted to get your kind of opinion and point of view on the business today and the world of producing as well. But before we do that, I wanted to talk briefly about your history and kind of how you came about becoming a producer. I know you met George in acting class, because you were an actor before. Yep. So start with growing up in the pellet verties and kind of what inspired you to get into the business. Well, I always wanted to be an actor, so from a very young age, with no real designs on anything other than that. I mean, that's all. And I didn't know, you know, like most people, unless you grew up in the business, I didn't know anything about it. I didn't know how hard it was. I didn't know. I didn't really know anything. I just was kind of this dumb fucking kid who just was like, I'm going to be an actor. And you were just far enough away in pellet verties to believe, hey, I could do it. I mean, yeah, I was. And so when I was in high school, I started taking like a professional acting classes. And I would drive in after school and drive into town. And I have to do rehearsals and, you know, like normal acting class stuff. And then I went to USC and studied theater, you know, studied acting. And it was when I was a freshman, my freshman summer, that I met George in this same acting school or class. It was an old famous acting teacher's name was Milton Kutscelis. That's right. That's where we met. And then I became an actor, you know, and I acted for a long time and did that whole thing. But along the way, I started getting interested in how things were made. And I would be on set. I just found it kind of fascinating. What everybody did. All these, if there's so many people involved in making a film or a television show. And I would just, you know, usually make a friend here or there or the DP or the first AD or whoever. And I just would observe and pick their brain and could have been a writer. It could have been a producer. I started to feel like, well, this might be something I'd like to try. And I did a couple like little PA gigs, like literally like my job on one commercial. Not Pepsi commercial. I'll never forget. My job for three days was to turn a fan on and to turn the fan off. I've been there, man. I PA, I PA as well. One of my first PA jobs was to bring all the equipment from the top of the parking lot or of Leo Creo down to the beach and back. And I remember walking up about stair 7,987 at the end of the day after the actors had wrapped going, I don't want to do this. I don't want to be the last person on set. Flapping a 5K up 600 stairs. I need to figure out what else I want to do. Do you remember the thing, the movie or the television show that got you into acting that got you hooked? I don't, but I was an obsessive television watcher as a kid. And I grew up in the Norman Lear era. And so, you know, all the family and Jefferson's and all those shows. But I just was, I think I just, I think I just was start for attention really is what it was. And so you, you act for a while and then do you become a director of development at one of Georgia's first companies with Robert Newman? Was that what it was? How did you make the jump? So what happened was I started just noodling around writing and I wrote, I wrote a little short film. It was a long short film, I think it was about half an hour. I based it on an experience that I had auditioning for Woody Allen. It was a crazy story. And so I wrote this, this short and I got all my friends to be in it. So George was in it and Jennifer Aniston taped on event and Richard Kine and Pam Adlon. And all I just, you know, I just said, hey, where you come? And so I made that film. I wrote it. I directed it. I produced it. I did, you know, did the whole thing. And it garnered a lot of attention. And I ended up, you know, signing with CAA as an agent. And I loved it. I loved making it. I loved everything about it. And so I just was kind of like trying to go at it. And then we hit that, that big writer's strike. So I guess that would have been what, like 24 years ago, 23 years ago, 2008. And I had my second kid on the way. And I was like, fuck what am I, what am I going to do, I do. And at that time, George and Soderbergh had formed their partnership. And I was talking with George and we've been friends for so long and I just was, I just said, look, is there a place for me to come work for you guys? And he's like, well, let me see. And he said, you know, there's, you can come in and you have to kind of start at the bottom of the thing and that it done. I think he was, you know, he was used to people asking and I think a lot of people, like show up, but then they kind of flake. But anyway, so we started working together and it was great. We made a few TV shows in that sort of incarnation. And then at a certain point, we sat down and wrote, goodnight and good luck. And then that kind of was, that kind of where the real partnership started. I go back, not as far as you with George, but I go back right to the beginning of ER where I met him. I just, he's such an amazing person. What were you doing then? I think I was a VP. I may have even been a direct, I was a VP for sure VP at Disney at touchdown. And I just thought he was amazing. I just thought he was an incredible actor. I met him really believed in him very quickly thereafter. The entire universe believed in him. But I attached him to a movie called Nothing to Lose as an actor. And he read the script and he's like, oh, that's just a good idea that I could see myself doing this. Tim Robbins and Martin Lawrence ended up doing it. It's about a guy who's having the worst day of his life and he's car jacked and he just takes the car jacker hostage to kind of fix his life. It's like a comedic collateral. And he was so smart about the script. His notes were so good. I was blown away. Everything he said was amazing. And then he said, there's this young comedian I saw named Chris Tucker. We should get him. So I went and got Chris Tucker and we were all locked in for a few months. And the script has never got there. And he became George Clooney and Chris Tucker went off and did rush hour and it just became like kind of unraveled. But that began our friendship. And I just was I was so blown away by how smart he was. And so instantly knew that acting was one piece of what he was going to do but that he was so smart about the business and about script and about story that I was like this guy can do anything and sure enough he then goes off and creates this huge career as a producer and writer and as a director. And he's just such a giving amazing person because in my conversations with him, he the thing and correct me fine wrong. What I sensed is the thing that he did not like the most was being at the mercy of someone else. And he wanted to try to take as much control over his own destiny and his own path and his own taste as he could. And he would talk he would talk a lot about like losing out roles to other actors of the time and just being like what's the difference? It's like a coin flip between me and him. You know it could have been him could have been me and I know that he in Rob Lowe like went after a lot of the same roles could have been Rob Lowe could have been me you know like and he talks about that and I was like oh okay I can see that you really have a clear vision of the business clear vision of your own path. So I could see wanting to be a producer and and him following that path and of course he did. I think the big turning point for him and he he said this many times it was when he did Batman and Robin and I think he just you know he just felt like he was part of something he didn't have the control. And you know the movie is not it's not a good movie and you know he knew it wasn't a good movie but he wears out as a badge of honor. I think that that was the catalyst to say never again will I be in that position. Well here's my George here's my George Clooney Batman story so I was having a really hard time another executive had taking credit for like something that I did and I was really passed over and pissed off and having a really really hard day. And I called him you picked right up and I was talking to him about it I'm like man this business is hard I'm like it's hard I'm working my ass off and I'm not getting any credit and he he was really talking me off the ledge and talking about his career and how many roles he had gone up for and not gotten and now he's sitting there and he's Batman this is during the filming of Batman and I was like you really took probably 45 minutes to really like care and talk to me and really was like really open and sincere about it. And it really helped me a lot and at the end he's talking and I hear somebody go hey George we got to go man we got to go and I go and I hear go and I go. Are you wearing the Batman suit right now because I am I go that is the best fucking story ever. Batman just literally talk me up in the suit like that's just the kind of duty is he's like on set sob buddy needed help and he just stepped right in man. And it's just like incredible and and that he's lived his life that way I just saw the latest movie the Netflix movie Jay Kelly and it's it's him is such an amazing actor and it's like you just go wow that is like your whole career has been really just like being a movie sorry it's like pretty incredible. So you sort of looking at all the jobs and thinking like that's cool I want to know what everybody does specifically I get writing because that's an extension of being a great actor and being a creative what specifically attracted you to producing. Well I had done some producing a theater when I was younger and though they're different there are a lot of you know there are a lot of similarities as you know you know producing is just it's just like literally rolling your sleeves up and just doing. Whatever it takes whatever it is you know oh shit we ran to this theater doesn't have air conditioning we're doing a show in summer Los Angeles we got to get air conditioning how do we do that who do I call how do I pay for it that's a. Little miniscule thing of what you know you and I have to do every day when you're producing a film there much much bigger problems like oh he's not showing up or he's it's this it's that or we lost. The cameraman could be it could be a million different so I had some of those skills I felt and then when we did good night and good luck kind of I just said well I'll just produce it you know I'd never produced a movie before so that was the first thing I produced if you look at the credits I I have the soul producer credits the only time I've ever had a soul. I know it's crazy and so I you know that that was again just learning learning on the job and I love I loved it I love the idea of you know you see a movie in your head and you start to put these pieces together and you start to put the cast together and the sets and the designers and all of it and you're making a movie and there's just nothing there's no better thing to do I don't think for me for me look George is one of the most powerful actors in Hollywood. And has this had this huge career and nobody is more powerful you know and a tour director is more powerful than number one on the call sheet but most people in the crew. An entire process quite frankly are not more powerful than number one and you're an incredible writer what is the North star for you and George when you guys produce something because you're both such great guys and you guys have been friends forever and you're just such down to earth. People you don't need to you don't need it you could hire somebody and they'll listen to everything you say and you you could work less and still do still have your creative vision and George will get whatever he wants because he's number one and you could write it and direct it and you guys could run the whole thing but what is it about owning a production company and having a name like smokehouse on it and the collaboration and and just bringing everybody together what's your North star smokehouse what you just said you said ownership but it's having ownership of the stuff that you make. I mean honestly we could we could produce a ton more movies you know put our names on shit and just but we we always say look if we can't work on it like if we can't physically be there to the extent that George can be there and but if we can't be there if we can't you know be in the edit if we can't do the things that really you know help to make a movie then we don't want to have our name on it. I think we both just like to work you know we both we both came up you know as struggling actors I mean with the thing that people forget about George is it yeah he he finally hit it but he had many years you know he was sleeping on my couch you know he tells the story and it's a true one that when we were younger I was probably in my early 20s I lent him a hundred bucks so he could get new headshots and you know he was working on jobs I was working on jobs I was parking cars he was doing this and that so he and he came to his family. And he came to his fame later now in the scheme of things you know he wasn't old but in the in the cycle of our business you know he'd done I don't know how many 10 pilots and you know been on three or four shows and you know all that stuff and so those were by the way those were the exact stories he was telling me over the 45 men a phone call exactly all of those stories you just said about how how passed over he was and how hard he worked. And he really inspired me to stay with it so I I completely don't know and understand on that and it was you know it was a weird thing for me because why I made the commitment that now that I was going to full time work as a you know development person really at the start and I didn't even really know what a development person was to be quite honest you know I didn't know shit because I got the one thing you don't learn as an actor as you don't learn that part of the business right so it was kind of travel I remember some lonely days those first days literally just like picking up a phone and Cole calling agents and saying hey my name is Grant has to love I'm working for George Clooney and Steven Soderbergh and I don't know if you have any material but we're just look always you know we had our mandates and the kind of shit we were looking for and stuff and but the irony is that as soon as I did this then I got an offer to do a big movie as an actor I started getting these all these offers to to work and so I really did have to make that choice and I agonize over it but at the end of that I'm pretty sure I made the right decision yeah I would say so well you you're in my paths crossed although not physically because you worked on enemy of the state and I was at Disney at the time that that movie was made and so like it's just hey if you if you hang in there long enough and the greatest part one of the shining lights of my career was the Cohen brothers walked into my office and said hey we've been passed on all over town which is why they're coming to Disney at the end and they said we want to do a white trash homers Odyssey and I'm like say less I'm in yeah and they said well the the name of it is a brother right down and I said oh from Sullivan's travels they're like you're the only executive that knew that reference I'm like I'm in I called Joe Roth and he's like we're in and George was starring and we the foggy bottom boys were like on the number top 10s down track for like 60 weeks and he talks about that all the time because you'll you probably know this story you know his character sings you know in the film and so he they sent him the Jolene's and sent him music and he was you know rehearsing and learning the songs and stuff and you know I think everybody thinks because his aunt is Rosemary Clooney's probably and he's got and he's got some some pipes and he started to sing the song and the guys were like whoa wait this isn't going to work and so the number net was like hey I think we get fixed so they got somebody else to do it right so cut to now this album is the this huge hit album and you know Tim Blake Nelson he sings a song in the in the thing and he's on the album and so he ends up making like millions of dollars in royalties from that album and you know George didn't make shit on that movie like he got paid like scale and you know I'm sure in in now he's probably made a little bit of money on it but like those guys in T-Boom Burnett they made all the money. Well I'll tell you how my my old brother's story other than just the pure joy of working on it and going to we shot it in LA and on the universe a lot and the old old ways and just the pure joy of working on it T-Boom Burnett his kids went to the same elementary school as my kids and for six years he would see me and go give me the nod like thank you brother yeah and then the other the other story was we when my daughter was born we we had had a difficult time of it and I was very tense and scary and I was freaking out and it was in the delivery room and it was a C-section so I was just so scared and I'm just just so emotional and I stuff and listen and I go is this the soundtrack to O'Brother right down they're like yeah and they're like cranking it up and everyone's dancing and I was like this is so much hard like this is so weird you can't get away from it I love that film I love I love the co-embrothers and and after I was working with George and Stephen I got a call from their casting person to say hey would you want to come do I had audition for them a couple times before and I never got it but they asked me to come do this short they were doing a short film for like the an anniversary for the can film festival they were going to show these shorts by all these great directors and so I did this short film with Josh Rollin and so I finally got to I finally got to work with those guys and it was it was exactly as George described working with them one take two takes yep we got to move it on yeah so you mentioned before that you've only been a single producer one time in your career so insane to me and so let's talk a bit about two things let's talk about credits and let's talk about fees the world would think you guys are so powerful and could do whatever you want but two things that affect career producers and what's interesting is I think a lot of people don't understand like I think a lot of people think producers united we don't want to share credits with actors we don't want to share credits with producers we just want it to be me and grand we nobody else and it's that's not true we just want people to do the fucking job we want people to come up come on set or come into the process and do the work as a producer which I know George Clooney does like I saw him do it just as an actor I nothing to lose I know that he is there and he looks at every script and daily is in marketing and is on set making sure it's a safe workplace et cetera said all the things we do yeah so there is that misnomer but I'm saying as producers who like do the job big P producers forget about high fends career producers whatever the two things that affect producers that do the job are one people take our fees and two people take our credits yeah you would think that George Clooney and Grant has love don't have that problem you guys have made a lot of a lot of movies and I'm sure some people you have graciously let in and said yeah you're doing the work come on do this with us but I'm sure there's been times where you've either been asked or manipulated or forced to take lower fees to have someone else take your fees to get your movie made or maybe some credits on some independent thing or something that you had to be but had to swallow walk me through just your general take and have to be specific George and I'll take of those two issues in our business today that are that are facing producers it's an interesting system and if you don't work and it's hard to quite understand you know it literally does take a village mostly not always but mostly to make a movie right and so you know I might be a producer and I like this material but this person's been working on that material for a long time and this actor had developed there's a lot of history with a lot of this stuff and so it has to get resolved and George and I are both of the opinion that you know as long as somebody is adding value we know that there are these criteria you know because I'm a member of the PGA as well and we know that you know the PGA is the arbiter of these things that you have to do in order to qualify if your film gets nominated for an academy work right that's kind of yeah to get the mark to get the mark putting all that aside just adding value if somebody is doing that then I do think they I think they do deserve a producer credit and I think they deserve a fee based on we say quotes but based on the work they've done in the past they should get a bump but oftentimes what happens is they want they want path where they want you know one of there's three or four entities all of a sudden you know it's it can get a little crazy we we have been in the position ourselves or and I've been in the position I did this it's just happened on we did this film called ticket to paradise with George and Julia and we came on as producers and I worked on it I mean I was during the it was during the pandemic I mean that's Luda Australia I quarantine for two weeks I did the whole thing and I worked but at the end of the day I felt like I really didn't produce the movie in the way that was up to my well not my standard but they had you know Tim Tim Bevan in our phone they're they're great producers so I I took an executive producer credit and so did George and we've done that several we did that on just did that in another film recently I can't remember what it was and I think it's you know it's probably easier for us to do it because I don't really give a shit about the credits at this point the only thing I give a shit about is if I do the work and I have to share it with people that didn't do the work I agree and God bless you for taking the EP credit because the thing is we have to make that credit more valuable and more defined so people feel like it's it's a worthy worthy credit Well I did and I think so I think that as you as you make the producer credit more valuable because if it's more meaningful it's more valuable and you have to do the same thing with the executive producer credit it can't just be the studio saying well fuck it we're not going to give him any money but we'll throw him an executive producer credit it should have some some meaning attached to it so that you feel the people feel good about it and they feel you know and I I know that we've talked about offline we've talked about the idea that executive producers should they be able to participate in the academy should they be able to the biggest thing that we deal with and it's just so fucking annoying is that you know you tell people your producer and they ask you what do you do what does that mean every time you have to you have to explain it and and it's a little demoralizing yeah I mean I started the reboot of this podcast going through it for an hour explaining what producers do and you know and it's it's still it's still a question there was an article in variety as of this recording it was today and we we explain what we do and we have a producer's checklist that we give to anybody who wants to come and be our partners as a producer what we expect them to do and what's interesting is even the people that are asking for the credit don't know what the job is so that's so interesting to me is that somebody says I want to be a producer with you and you go well do you know what that means like no I just you know I want to be the boss and have that credit and just you know I want to have control which they don't realize that we actually probably don't have as much control as they think we do but when you show them the list of all the things we expect them to do they they go great I want to do that or they go holy shit I'm not doing that that's the thing with actors and there are some actors you know my partners one of them and there are many others you know that do do that do do that job and they do do that work and they do deserve that credit you know I worked with Ben Affleck he's you know he's every bit a producer oh for sure I have no problem with actors that are doing it we should probably talk about managers I have a hard time with that one you know I have a hard time if you just because you represent somebody's material doesn't mean that you should be a producer on a movie what's interesting about that and the complicated part about it and I have a lot of really good friends that are managers and I'm I'm not even saying that managers can't be producers they can again if they're willing to do the work on the movie then great the tricky thing is if you really look at what managers what they tell you they're going to do like what they're selling I don't know I've never when they sign you whatever that's called you know they kind of tell you what a manager does and so much of that signing of that explanation overlaps into what we do you know they develop material they find material they package material as your manager I'll do that for you well and and you know we'll make sure that your travel is good and we'll make sure that you're on set you feel comfortable or make sure that you're marketing well all the things the manager does by the way by us the producer he would say oh my developed material make sure the actors on traveling is okay make sure the actor feel safe make sure that the movie is done right make sure the marketing to make sure I deliver the movie but the but the weird part is and I don't know if you feel this because you're actually kind of straddle both sides is there is this feeling and maybe it does happen in the business more than I know because I don't I try to make sure it doesn't happen on my movies but I guess there is a feeling of a little bit of mistrust of you know the actor is kind of just going to like I guess how George felt on Batman right no one's fault it just is what it was that you feel like you're not really included you kind of just hold where to stand and you kind of want to be involved more but a good a good producer should make the actor their partner they should feel safe and feel able to do their best work and so I don't know if in the last 15 20 years like that became more apparent or if agents just said hey man you need to be a producer to control your undust anymore even if it's not something you necessarily a wanted to do or be have a propensity to do very well and so I think managers it's easy for managers then to tell their clients like I'll be there to just make sure that your interests are upheld with may or may not be the best thing for the movie quite frankly I never came at it from that angle and it's really interesting it's a very interesting observation and I think that there are managers that do just that you know that don't produce yeah I am by the way do it great and have for me as a producer my whole reason for living is making sure that the movie is the best movie it possibly can be or the television show is the best thing to do that's my north star as I'm just focused on trying to make it the best it can be yes if the if the actor isn't in line with that and the actor isn't being protected and the actor isn't being listened to the actor isn't being taken seriously I doubt we're going to get the best movie or the best product you know I know I'm not I don't know I hear to treat anybody like children and tell them what to do they should all be listen to and heard and it's just going to make the thing better as a manager I would think you could do a better job by not being polluted in that way and just being like grant I'm here for you I'm going to make sure call me if you need me I'll come to that set yell at everybody so I I would think that would make you a better manager quite frankly yeah I don't I don't disagree with that and but you know oftentimes you know we we don't have a choice because if you want that piece of material or you want that actor or you want whatever you know so you have to make the decision whether you're going to you know make the movie or not sometimes based on that so it puts us in a kind of a shitty position I think I don't think I've ever worked with the manager that got a producer credit that was very active in fact I don't even know if I have worked with it I don't know if I ever have done with a manager now that I think of it I think maybe we've always put the cabosh the advantage you guys have and again it was like George saying hey I met this guy named Chris Tucker I think he's amazing let me call him when he called him that's him he has advantage you guys have is that George to make that call actor to actor and it takes out a bunch of different layers as opposed to ushmux who have to go through everybody I find it's less about actors I find it's more about writers I think that writing and writers you know they are the unsung heroes that they're unsung you know good writers are well paid and they do great but what I mean is that in the public it's in the public's eye you know they really are behind the scenes they're never out front with exceptions obviously and they really you know because you just can't as you know this better than I do you can't make a good movie without a good script it's impossible you can make a right you might you can get lucky sometimes but you can't make a you can't make a great movie it's hard and as particularly nowadays because now you know you don't have time to get to the set and spend half a day rewriting and working scene and you know it's the economics are just so different I kind of dream about you know making the films in the 60s and 70s and what that must have been like and going off to make I don't know apocalypse now or something and it's just every day was an adventure you can go on days over over over schedule well here's what I would say about that you know look I sympathize because I'm a realist I've been doing this for 35 years like I've seen I've seen all sides of it and I've been on the studio side too so I completely sympathize with writers and their their plight because a lot of times they'll submit a script to a bunch of producers producer A studio B they make the highest bid and you're partnered with this producer and that's your that's your partner for the rest of the time and I can see that a lot of times writers are replaced and the movies are rewritten then it goes from one thing becomes something else and it's just like your name's on it and it's shit and you're you're not proud of it I get it I sympathize with that so I sympathize also then with them wanting somebody in their corner throughout the whole process right so a manager can say like hey I'm going to be there to make sure that your words get to the screen in a way that you're going to be proud of I sympathize with that I completely understand that I don't know necessarily that a producer credit is the right reward for that I believe that be more mindful of the people you partner with we have 300 people in our group that are fucking awesome right like if you know if you have a script that feels like a you know a grant has a lot of joint, joint, joint forces with you and let you nurture this thing because you're going to take it across the finish line so like I understand the idea of a manager producer I just think the producer credit is the wrong credit because that's a job and I think it's just because we're not in a union and it's the only credit they could give for that job it's like when somebody gives money when somebody gives money it's like there's no credit it just says investor which I was like I'm thinking like why not like I'd be cool if you're an investor and you're like I'm invested in this movie but it's all kind of lumped into quote-unquote producing so whether you're an investor or a manager that's defending your client's rights either as an actor director or writer or you know an actor that just wants the credit or whatever it's all lumped into this bucket and that's what I just want to be clear with everybody listening to this that's what we're really railing against it's not like we're just you know fuck managers, fuck actors, fuck it no not at all we're really just saying doesn't quite make sense that our credit is the one that's the catch-all for everything you know yeah and look I get it if I was a manager that I would I would be going for that too because it's you know it's the only you know managers do turn into great producers they become you know they leave management and they produce quite frankly if a manager wanted to produce on a movie that we were on and they were you know willing and able to do the things you know but you know the other part of that and that's what's tricky is like you know not everybody can produce and not just because you know not and I'm always thinking okay what's going to be the best thing for the film oftentimes it's the best thing for the film is not to have five producers five people five opinions five you know every meeting every you know it just it doesn't always it doesn't always work I had Stephen Fellows on and my podcast he's a researcher and he's proven without a shout of adult the more producers you have the less profitable the movies are and the quality is not as good it's also just it's it's it's it's logical you know it's I can't get four people decide where to go to dinner you try to get four people decide what that scene should be or what that actor is or what this motivation it's I would also say it's the same problem with green light today there's so many people in the room trying to agree on what movie to make it's like it has to just be quote unquote undeniable and nine times out of ten the undeniable thing is really the easily most easily marketed thing well you know and so if that doesn't that's so me it's going to be the best thing and so I agree with you I think that having like a lot of voices whether they're called producers or not in the in the room is not always necessarily the best thing but just in this green light because you brought this up just you and I both know that and because you did this job it's a fucking crap shoot I mean you know there are every there there's a movie you're like how did that movie ever get made shit ton of my because somebody just somebody had the nuts to make it yeah imagine play it is a gamble every movie it is a gamble even if movies they think are bulletproof it's got big IP big time actor a big time director and a big time writer it still can fail and so if if if you believe the deep theory that this is a gamble imagine going to Vegas and having a row of numbers and you have to bet you have to bet 12 times a year and if you're one guy or a woman who is a gambler and have learned and gambled for by the time you get that job 20 years you're going to say I'm going to go with this I'm going to go with seven I'm going to think and pump up and it's going to some are going to happen and some are not that's the way it is now imagine trying to bet on those 12 numbers and go okay Larry what do you think and Susan and Peter okay no you want 12 I went three I want five it's insane it's that's what's mashing everything down and slowing everything up and coming up the works and then it trickles all the way down to these poor executives that are like we're only going to do seven black now sorry we're only doing seven blacks so if you just bring us seven black and you're like I don't even know what seven black is I don't know if this is a bring you seven black so it's and you just and you extrapolate that out to producing and if everybody truly has the same an equal voice in the same voice it can be very convoluted it can be it can be tough so you know we try to you know we try to keep the number of producers down I mean that's the advantage of developing your own material obviously if you can control your own material then you can call shots yeah and and and that becomes harder because the studios are wanting less and less originals and less and less specific voices and more movies that all appeal to quote unquote everyone or quadrants and that little thing and it's interesting because I saw you and I saw George the other night at the jkelly screening we were chatting and I and that's a Netflix movie and there's so much talk about theatrical and so much talk about saving theatrical and everything has to be theatrical that's also not what we're saying something something should be theatrical and something should there's there's places for all of it it's just about finding the right home that believes in your material that you feel will give it the best audience and that movie it was great to see it on a big screen in 70 million I saw it a millimeter I saw it at the academy it was great but a lot of people are going to see it on Netflix and that's great too yeah I mean look if I had my my wishes and my dreams you know we'd be having more films and theaters and people would be lining up around blocks and just not the reality of what's going on you know since you know since COVID it's just it's been a battle I do think if a movie is good people will go see it in the theater like if and if there's a reason to go see it in the theater but it's harder you know it's harder to get people out of out of their homes and they're great they're great TVs and systems and all that stuff and it's expensive and you know so you got to really give them a reason and George specifically but you also because you're his partner have a different issue that you guys are dealing with I would I would guess I mean you you guys might be humble and say this isn't true but in my opinion anything George Clooney wanted to do as an actor he can get made and so therefore the thing he and you have to protect is not fucking up like not not damaging that not damaging that power that you know people want to see you giving them the quality of product people have come to expect from smokehouse and so it's so you guys are deciding for yourselves is this worthy of us doing as you said you know you could do a lot more movies and you could and then there's also something I wanted to go back to when you said we like to work yeah but you guys like to tell stories and that is your work and that is your work so so you guys are in a unique position because you guys are looking at it from a career perspective of like okay I'm doing this next one what is it what what is this ad what it who is the audience we know so what are those questions you guys are asking yourselves before you guys commit commit to a project because it is it is slightly different it's two things one is the stuff that George and I make as partners in smokehouse that he's not in and then the other the other part of the equation is stuff that he's going to be in but I would think that both of those conversations are similar they're not they're not so similar because okay walk me through both with respect to him first of all you know now that he's got kids and the wife he's not working nearly as much so he wants to do one one big maybe one big project a year and then maybe one smaller one depending on the schedule so or two smaller ones or one small whatever that is right so it's even trickier because you really want to you know it's got to be something that you that you love and generally you want to do something that you haven't done before you know so that's we're always we're always people like what do you know what are you looking for smaller and smaller every year yeah I don't know what we're looking for I know when I read a great movie when I read a great script I know it you know I know this is great now sometimes I read great ones and it's the part in it for George's either not good or it's not right or it's he's done it before and then some of it just depends on mood right like what mood are you in yeah to get him as an actor to get him out of the fence and away from his children is a big ask and also like I said to continue his stellar career and to make sure that he's doing something he hasn't done before but also you're hamstrung by what the studio's making so it's like those things are filtering out things as well not the movie the next movie we're doing that he's acting and it's not we know there's no studio we just got independent money and we'll make it and then we'll sell it after we need you to keep doing that it's a beautiful film it's a heart-wrenching love story it's you know George and Annette Benning and it's going to be it's going to be amazing Paul White's directing it and he wrote a terrific script and you know you read it and you're like oh I get while you're doing this we all do this right you think about like okay you know you're in your 80s and you've got your family around you and you're thinking about your legacy you're thinking about what you did and what your life is and the choices that you made and you know I want those choices to at least have been not if the film was good or bad because you know as we know it can go sideways at any point it's so fucking hard to make a good film it really is I mean it really is hard to like when I see a good film I'm just I just want to stand up and clap for the people that made it because I know how difficult it is you know it's unlike really any art form except for you know except people that's a very different kind of thing you know this is creating something out of whole cloth creating these stories out of whole cloth and it's not just the director you know I mean obviously the director is the single probably most important creative force behind a film but you know the produce without that right producer without that chemistry without the right script without the right actors you know without the it's it's unbelievable that good films get made I want to look back and at least know that we were taking stabs you know what I mean that we weren't just going yeah let's just do this one this one will make some money and you know won't be very hard with you thinking as the producer as well as producers yes that's what I'm talking about as a producer you know I mean look this this was the theater you know we decided to turn goodnight and good luck into a play and you know everybody's like why would you do that why would you you know and then you know we did it and it was it was it was you know it was probably among the five top creative experiences of both of our lives I mean it was just it was it was it was amazing and um uh and scary and you know which is probably also part of the fun and being scared to do something again because absolutely everything is scary but when you're really putting yourself in that position it's even more satisfying yeah I've got a couple of great people that work for us in development and you know and they'll they bring me stuff you know I read it and mostly I'm like this is good but not for us and then once in a while you read it and you're like this is fucking great you know this is really interesting and then and then the fun begins what's your favorite part of the process I love uh I love uh shooting I think I like shooting I like all the the problems of shooting you know even when it goes well there's just the I love that camp like feeling I like being with everybody and you know seeing these scenes made and working out problems you know with on a scene or the script or the actors or you know the caterer when you know whatever it is I just like I enjoy that I like the edit I really enjoy the edit I think that's so much so much of the film is made there yeah and um really I I think it's fun it's a and if you're working with the director that's very collaborative it's just a fun yeah it's a fun process and you can work with some that aren't so collaborative and it can be a nightmare how to couple of those yeah it's tough what advice would you give young Grant has love now because we're facing a lot of challenges in our business and a lot of people are super negative and saying hey don't bother which infuriates me because we need young Grant has love and young George Clooney too want to be in this business to change it like you guys have so what advice would you give to these to these young people that are either in our business as assistance or young development executives or students trying at USC that want to run across over I'd say have you ever considered medical school? Grant no you have to be with me you have to help this is what I will say is what I've been saying ever since I've been on any kind of panel or asked this question I would say ask yourself like is there something else that you'd rather do than this and if the answer is yes then I think you should go do that but if the answer is no then you should go for it because it's the brass ring you know if you want to go for the brass ring and if you have success even if you have moderate success it can be a great life and a great career and there are many things to do in this career you know it's not just producing and directing and writing there's a whole host of things I don't know if you know that George and I we started this school it's been about sort of a third or fourth year and it's a charter school in LA unified and it's a school for kids who want to get want to be get in the film business but it's only below the line oh stuff and so we work with all the guilds and they get training it's amazing they get internships and they have to decide by the time they're a junior what path they want to take so they can make editor make up visual effects and it serves mostly underserved kids so it's mostly you know background Asian you know kids who just you know who aren't our kids you know our kids have an in but a lot of people don't so and as you know part of what we try to do is try we're trying to bring diversity into our business and have it for a long time rightfully so probably and so we just feel like let's start like that's how you get in the track what is the name of it what is the name of the school it's called the Roy Bull school of film and television and we set up another one in New York they're taking our curriculum and so we're going to do it in Nashville and so it's great you know it's just it's really great so I might thank you so much for doing us it means so so much to me and to the business that's my pleasure well I always like to end with with this final question and you this should be interesting from you best memory onset I don't know if it was on a set okay when we wrote you know we wrote goodnight and good luck originally we wrote it for George to play Muro and once we'd written it we realized we had the weight on his show you know Muro always felt like he had the world the weight on his show he just always felt like that and we thought about Davis Trutheran and thought he would be amazing so we flew to New York we took him out to the lunch and we met him and he had like he had a big hair really long had a really long beard and he was working on a part and but we talked about it and he said yeah I would you know I would love to do this but once to finally get to the place we were ready to start shooting he shows up and he still looks like this he still got the beard and I'm like you know we got a shave and we got to see what he fucking looks like we got to do a test goes in does the test comes out we have a set we have the set we have the new set and he sends their Bob Ellswood is shooting the test he lights a match lights a cigarette and he starts doing this monologue and it was just like he was morrow and I just looked forward we looked at each other and we started like like punching each other and it was just like it was just magical I love that well it's because you love to tell stories man and you tell them very very well and your part you're a great person so humble and down to earth and amazing and so is your partner all the continued success I appreciate it and I can say the same about you as well and thanks for having me on thanks for tuning in for this episode of the producer's guide if you're a fan of this podcast make sure to rate, review, subscribe and share with your friends and family and if you've got any questions about producing send me a DM on X a Todd_Garner I want to thank my producer Tom Todd_Garner