Who’s afraid of gender equality? Inside the latest political battleground

This BBC Podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. How do you update old systems without slowing your business down? It's not about modernization just to modernize. Or move AI from pilot to production. It's not the technology that's failing. It's the use case that you pick. Find out how global leaders are turning enterprise change into real competitive advantage. Do it in a resilient way with speed and effectiveness. Follow resilient edge of business vitality podcast paid and presented by Deloitte. Check out our new episodes wherever you get your podcasts. Moloftriplai Ylpeana esittää. Trippladeis. Usia etuja ja mahtavia tarjoksja, joka päivä. Torstaista sunnuntaihin. Meille on helpa tulla aina aamun varhaisesta ilta myahan. Katsok kaikki tarjokset. Moloftriplai. Istefi. Thanks for downloading the World Tonight podcast for Thursday 12 March. I'm Jane Hill. As Israel says it's launched a new wave of strikes against Iran. It's also told people in a new part of southern Lebanon to leave immediately almost doubling the area under a massive actuation order. We have a special report from inside Lebanon. Here a woman has been jailed for 13 years after a vulnerable teenager she took into her home was held as a slave for 25 years. We'll discuss modern slavery and what more can be done to find and help victims. And the head chef of perhaps the world's most famous restaurant, Nome has resigned and apologized after allegations of physical and verbal abuse. I'll be talking to Angela Hartnett about the pressure cooker environment of a professional kitchen. Israeli strikes are continuing on Tehran tonight, but there's no sign of the regime of the Islamic Republic giving way. Its goal appears clear to throttle as much of the West's oil supply as it can by targeting ships passing through the choke point of the Strait of Hormuz, that narrow waterway that ships carrying 20% of all the world's oil supplies as well as gas from the Persian Gulf have to pass through. The tactic has driven the price of oil back up to more than $100 a barrel. Iran has a new leader, of course, Mosh de Baqamani, but he hasn't actually been seen since the attack that killed his father. A statement purportedly from him was read out on State TV, making the regime's strategy explicit. It's been voiced here by colleagues from BBC Persian. Dear brothers of the armed forces, the demand of the people is to continue this effective defense that is making the enemy regret its actions. The leader of blocking this Strait of Hormuz should definitely be used regarding opening new fronts in which the enemy has little experience and is vulnerable. We have carried out assessments and will be putting them into action in case of the continuation of the war, and they will be carried out taking into account our interests. And speaking to the PM program earlier, Iran's ambassador to the UN in Geneva, Ali Barani, said the regime of the Islamic Republic remained firmly in control of the country. The fact that our country has been able to elect a new leader in this time of war and the time that our country is under attacks, signals the stability in our country and the fact that the political system is working very efficiently. Well, speaking in the last couple of hours, President Trump sounded quite content about the ongoing success of the U.S.-Israeli operation. The situation with Iran is moving along very rapidly. It's doing very well. Our military is unsurpassed. There's never been anything like it. Nobody's ever seen anything like it. And we're doing what has to be done. Should have been done during a 47-year period. Could have been done by a lot of different people that chose not to do it, but they really are a nation of terror and hate. And they're paying a big price right now. Well, nonetheless, the U.S. President is facing growing questions about how he'll bring down the price of fuel for American consumers and has so far managed to avoid being pressed about a U.S. strike early in the campaign that resulted in the death of more than 100 school children. Let's assess the mood in Washington tonight with Julia Manchester, whose White House correspondent at the Hill, she joins me live from DC. Julia, hello, good evening. Thanks for being with us. Good evening. I mean, interesting again to listen to Donald Trump there, sounding fairly bullish, but the Iranians we've heard are sticking to this really defiant response, particularly on that subject of not allowing oil through the Straits of Hormuz. I mean, what's your assessment of whether Donald Trump is actually under some pressure here? Right. Well, the Iranians understand that President Trump is under quite a bit of political pressure here in the United States. In November, we have our midterm elections, which will determine which party controls the House and the Senate. And President Trump has been actively campaigning for Republicans on this issue of affordability. And in his argument in favor of Republicans and affordability, President Trump has said in the past that energy prices are going down. The problem for President Trump now is that he can't necessarily say that. Now, a lot can change between now and November. But going forward, it's going to be tricky for the President. And the messaging about this operation, about what the war is meant to achieve, has the administration yet come up with a clear set of objectives that would allow the President to walk away to say, this is a success. I've achieved what I wanted. Well, the administration says they have come up with objectives and they have laid out what they say are objectives. Those include, you know, annihilating the Iranian Navy, you know, destroying other parts of their military, making sure they cannot ever have access to a nuclear weapon of some kind, ensuring that America's allies in the Middle East are safe and no longer threatened from Iran. The problem is, though, what does that, the US exit strategy look like? And when does President Trump end this war? I mean, he says it's moving along rapidly. But, you know, Americans are continuing to be evacuated, including diplomats from the region. You see the military presence, obviously, increasing and ongoing. You have Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent, for example, saying today that the US is considering joining an international coalition to essentially help escort ships through the straight of Hormuz. So it's very unclear what an exit, if there will be an exit anytime soon and what that exit looks like. Okay, Julia Magister, thank you so much, as ever, for joining us there from Washington, D.C. Well, the ongoing attacks inside Iran have resulted in well over three million Iranians being displaced, according to the UN Refugee Agency. Others are leaving the country altogether. Our correspondent Stan Johnson reports from the city of Van in Southeast Turkey near the border with Iran, speaking to some of those who got out traveling by train from the Iranian capital. The train from Tehran was running late, but its passengers were just relieved to reach Turkey. After a journey of 26 hours, weary families hauled their luggage down onto the icy cold platform of Van station. We saw some bomb in, was very horrible. Mustafa led his wife and kids to safety, leaving Iran behind but still carrying the stress of war. All of Iranian people don't support the war, but the United States and Israel who has into this war. You wanted to stop? Yes, so you can go home. Yes, we have some land for our home, and if ceasefire is going and we will return home. Hussein, an accountant who is heading to Canada, told me he was exhausted from the journey, but the train was his only route over the border after flights were cancelled. I don't believe they can win. I mean, it's a very difficult situation. I hope the war will be ended soon. You see, my country is beautiful country. They are destroying the country. For last reason, I don't know. Many of these passengers are too afraid to talk openly in fear of reprisals if they return to Iran in future, and even being targeted overseas if they don't. This man was one who quietly said he wanted the regime to go, but he wouldn't give his name. People have their normal life. Of course, I go to work, but we have this fear that the explosion would be near us or near the target. But nobody wants bombing continue. Even though those people who do not agree with the regime, I'm not sure that they want their country to be under attack. Their houses, their people, even though they want some changes. We met a science graduate from Canada who was visiting relatives in Iran when she was trapped, first by protests, then the war. We've used a different voice to protect her identity. There are bombs from midnight until the early morning, close to us. There is nothing to warn us, the bombs are coming. There are no facilities to protect people, to save their lives. It's very stressful, but we are really optimistic about the end of the war. There is hope here of a brighter future. And there's also defiance, Hossain said he'd return soon. Iran is my country, I love my country. So you will be back? I will be back certainly. Do you know when? Within two, three weeks, Simon. Even if the war's still going on. Even if the war. I lose the same route going back to my country. Whether that is possible and what sort of country the train heads back to will be determined by the course of this conflict. And Johnson reporting there from the Iran-Turkey border. Well, Israel is tonight dramatically expanding its military operations inside its northern neighbour. It's targeted more sites in Beirut that it says are associated with Hezbollah, the Iranian backed Shia Muslim armed group. And it's issued an unprecedented evacuation warning, telling all residents south of the Zirani River to leave their homes immediately. That is an order which covers hundreds of thousands of people. Of course one of where Adavis has this week spent time with civil defence units in the town of Nabatea, which has come under constant Israeli attack, which is now part of the new evacuation zone. We're just about to leave at the end of the day. And the two more massive explosions. One a strike hit the village here, that's on the edge of Nabatea. And we are right next to the hospital. Another one in that direction over to my south. Now there were some general evacuation warnings issued by the IDF before these airstrikes, but nothing too specific. We are of course in an area north of the southern evacuation zone in Poozba Israel. But such is the intensity and the power of these Israeli airstrikes that many of these areas now are depopulated because the risk of staying here is just too great. We're now in our vehicle following an ambulance through the town of Nabatea to the scene of another airstrike. There have been four in the last 20 minutes. Some of them very loud. We're now with a squad from the civil defence league. They've gone into this building to try and rescue disabled woman. She's on the third or fourth story of this building right next to a building that's taken a big hit and has been completely destroyed. Her windows have been blown in. Masonry has been blown into her building. There's no way she could have stayed here, but it was a monumental effort to get her down the stairs into an ambulance and to relative safety. We've arrived now at the hospital with Intisar, the old woman who was evacuated from the house because she couldn't get herself out. Thankfully she's now getting treatment at the hospital. I was very scared when the strike happened. I've been living in fear and panic and my heart keeps pounding. Your house has been badly damaged by the bombing, this glass, there's stones everywhere. Do you think you'll go back? The glass on my window shattered from the explosion. I've lived in my home for 25 years. Where am I supposed to go? If the situation calms down, I'll go back to my home. It's really really busy here because of all the bombing these whelies are doing in their own nabatier. Down the hall there's a young family, a mother, a two very young children, a teenage nephew I think. They're unhinged, but they had to stay in nabatier because they simply couldn't afford to leave. We didn't leave because we saw on the TV how people are stranded on the roads and sidewalks. I didn't want that for my two kids so I decided to stay and trust in God's will. We were sitting on mattresses on the floor having lunch and watching television when suddenly half the house collapsed. The glass on the windows shattered so we couldn't see a thing. I grabbed my kids and went to hide in a small room until the responders showed up and took us out. It would be absolutely pure out to say that life goes on in despite this. In fact, nabatier is like a ghost town, but at some point the Israeli tax will stop and people will return. For now, some things are happening in the background you may be able to hear the call to prayer. Above it is the omnipresent sound of these wavy droves. We're a Davis for us there in Lebanon. Now coming up a little later on the program, what makes a restaurant great? On Hell's Kitchen. I'm looking for greatness. The pressure to impress Chef Ramsay. Fascinating. Come on. Chef Ramsay expects a lot out of me. Breaks the chefs. You're standing there calling your eyes out. In ways they've never been broken before. Shut it. I'm done. I quit. Don't let them kiss my ass. While working in high-end kitchen certainly isn't for the faint hearted, but when does demanding excellence from your employees turn into bullying and harassment? The resignation of the head chef of one of the world's most famous restaurants has sparked a debate. I'll be talking later to the Michelin star, Chef Angela Hartnett. You might know she trained under Gordon Ramsay. Now, we will turn our attention for the next few minutes to one of our main stories at home today because a vulnerable woman who was kept in slavery for 25 years says she suffered deep and lasting harm. The woman who has a learning disability and isn't being named was kept by 56-year-old Amanda Wixson in her house in Choukisbury in Gloucestershire. She was forced to do domestic chores, given only scraps to eat and wasn't allowed to wash wash. Wixson was jailed today for 13 years. The woman she'd held captive is now in her mid-forties and living with a foster family. Her foster mother has been speaking about the impact of Wixson's crimes. It was really hard even giving her hugs. She didn't want me to hug her. So I used to say to her, "You know, when you're ready, I'll be here for you." And within the week she turned around and started being love him. She called her the witch. She's really scared of her. She's petrified actually. You know, when the court case was going on, she went into a supermarket and bumped into her and she was hysterical. I mean, she was really terrified, petrified. Well, our correspondent Phil Mackie was in court today as Wixson was sentenced. The most important thing that we heard today was really from the victim herself. You know, she wasn't in court. She attended via a video link. A statement was read out on her behalf, as is always the case in the sentence hearings, in which she said that, "For 25 years, I lived in fear, control and abuse. I was treated as though my life, my freedom and my voice did not matter." And both during the trial and again today, we went through what had happened to her over a very long period of time. In fact, she originally, we believe, was taken into the care of Mandy Wixson back in the late 1990s when she was a teenager, as potentially an act of charity to look after her, but it very quickly turned into this awful ordeal that she had to endure for decades, where she effectively became a domestic slave. And she suffered these horrendous physical beatings. She was humiliated, had her hair cut off. She had a teeth knocked out in one of those beatings. She wasn't allowed to seek medical attention. She wasn't allowed to wash. And she was forced to live in this tiny filthy room with no contact with the outside world for probably two decades of that 25 years, effectively lost to the rest of the world until she managed to get a hold of a telephone, called the police who came and rescued her back in 2021. And there is so much that is distressing and shocking about this case, but the sheer duration as well that you mentioned there that no one raised the alarm, no one wondered where she was, that she was forced to live in this way for more than 20 years. And I've been to the house, which is on a fairly busy housing estate and the atscoots of Shakespeare in Gloucestershire. Lots of council houses, privately owned houses, some small blocks of flats as well. People live pretty much on top of each other there, and that makes it even harder to believe that no one noticed that she'd gone. Neighbours said that they knew she lived there a long time ago, but she'd been kept locked away for so long, and Wixson had told them that she'd moved away to Scotland, had gone away completely. They just didn't know she was still there. Now it's probable that family members did, they were very much not able to speak because of threats made to them, but they did try to help when they could. And that's how we believe she managed to get that phone that called for help, but it does beg a belief that nobody knew she was there. And as a result of nobody knowing she was there, nobody went around to check on her. So we know social workers involved or anything like that. She's basically disappeared off the system other than the fact that Wixson, when she first arrived at the house, took it out to the benefits office way back in the 1990s, registered her for benefits, had it paid into her account, and it's thought that over the period of two decades or more managed to steal more than £100,000 of those benefits into her own bank account. And do we know how the victim is fairing today? Well, if you think when the police rescued her, she was Melnaro, she was Bruce, she was dirty, she was living in a filthy, squalid environment, she's been completely removed from society. She was in a terrible state. Today, however, she looked great. She's put on work. She's grown her hair, she was smartly dressed. You could see her on the video link interacting with other people. She's now in the care of her foster family who said that to begin with she really struggled to know what to do when she went outside. She didn't had a cross the road. She didn't know how to wear suitable clothing when the weather was bad. She almost backs away when anybody tried to touch her but things have improved. She's beginning to thrive. She's got a kind of normal family life. So today she had the opportunity to see what happened to her tormentor. Mandy Wickson arrived on bail at court this morning but she left in a police van and she finally got to see her jail for 13 years. Our correspondent Phil Mackie who was in court for sentencing. Well let's speak to Lauren Saunders from the anti-slavery charity Unseen which works with survivors, businesses and government and runs a modern slavery helpline. Lauren, a very good evening to you. So distressing so much of this case. What? We hear the phrase modern slavery. What, how does your charity define it? I mean is what we've heard there is this an extreme case? This is quite a regular occurrence case that we support victims who've been through. Modern slavery is quite an umbrella term. It overrides a number of different types of exploitation from domestic servitude as in this case but there's other forms of sexual exploitation, criminal exploitation, forced labour and as well as organ harvesting and bodily fluid and bodily function harboring are harvesting as well. I mean some of what you say is almost unbelievable to some of us. What makes an individual vulnerable to exploitation? So an exploiter will often find many different forms of vulnerability and will use manipulation and coercion for that vulnerability to keep that person restrained or in a situation of exploitation. Some of those vulnerabilities could include isolation so no peers, connections, family members, financial poverty, maybe a bereavement or a breakup that makes someone emotionally vulnerable, maybe a difficult upbringing, poor family life, physical learning difficulties. There can be really a number of vulnerabilities that exploit as well, manipulate. So how, but I just think people will be listening to this thinking how can I help? What if I have a concern about someone because some people are exploited and they're sent out to work, aren't they? So any of us could be served or helped or be working in a situation where someone is actually exploited. How can we spot that? Yeah, absolutely. I think it's really important for first and foremost is to understand what the signs of exploitation look like. So doing research into kind of identifying it, looking for any signs of isolation, maybe restricted movement, if someone's very fearful, maybe their physical appearance is amount and are sure there might be injuries, they could be living or working in poor conditions, they could be monitored and it's really important that when you do have concerns, you can either raise them to our help line on 08,1121700 or contact the police directly or just looking on our website has lots of information about how to identify what modern slavery is and how it might be interacting with your daily life. Lauren Saunders, thank you so much and let me just give you that phone number again because that is important. The modern slavery help line 08,121 700 08,121 700. Legacy systems, disconnected data, manual processes everywhere. Sound familiar? I'm Ashwin Patil, Special Host of Resilient Edge, a business vitality podcast paid and presented by Deloy. I sat down with leaders from Toyota Motor North America who decided to stop patching and start rebuilding. Chris Jungeredi from Deloy and Jason Ballard from Toyota walked me throughout their transformation. We keep hearing 95% of the pilots fail. My response to that is it's not the technology that's failing it's the use case that you pick. You got a first look at the business process and identify the bottlenecks and the use cases to start with. Is a difference between modernization and transformation? When we first introduced AI in the scenario of the demand and supply planning function where we had the planners stitching together a lot of spreadsheets through some of our early releases of the new product. We immediately saw upwards of 60% productivity gains. We were expecting maybe 20%. What sets them apart? They leveled up. With the drop in manual effort, planners got ours back to do the work that really counts. So how do you scale AI responsibly across a complex global operation from mainframe constraints to real time intelligence? The full conversation reveals how Deloy, AWS and Toyota built a digital data thread connecting forecasting suppliers, production and dealers. Plus what this means for any enterprise ready to transform all of that and more on this special episode of resilient edge, find us wherever you listen to podcasts. And as we've just been hearing a woman from Chukesbury has been jailed today for 13 years for keeping a vulnerable woman as a slave for 25 years. Now the Copenhagen restaurant Nome used to make headlines for all the right reasons being awarded three Michelin stars, taking the top spot in the world's 50 best restaurants on multiple occasions. But today it's founding chef, René Ritzepi, announced he was stepping down after he acknowledged past mistreatment of staff. In a statement on social media, he said an apology wasn't enough and he was taking responsibility for his actions. The New York Times last week reported dozens of former employees saying that Ritzepi had inflicted physical and psychological harm, detailing incidents between 2009 and 2017. Ritzepi spoke today of his bad judgments and his anger. But he's not the first chef known to be bullish in the kitchen. There was Marco Pierre White in the 90s and he trained Gordon Ramsay, whose outbursts were later regularly seen on the TV show Hell's Kitchen. Well Gordon Ramsay known for expecting high standards from those who work under him. But how typical is that sort of behaviour in the pressure cooker atmosphere of a restaurant kitchen? Well let's ask the Michelin star chef Angela Hartnett. She runs Marano and Cafe Marano, along with various other establishments. Angela Hartnett, really good of you to talk to us on the world tonight. I mean I have to ask first, did Gordon Ramsay shout at you? Yes, Gordon did and I think he admitted he shouted at me in the past. But I think even he's admitted he's moved on from that sort of behaviour. And yeah it did happen. But I think as I was saying to you producer earlier on, I think the thing is once you've been shouted at once it feels like water off a duck's back. It's a weird thing in a way. You don't need to hear it again. You just want to get on with the work you're entitled to. And I think these days it's changed in kitchens. I don't think you can function like that anymore. You don't want to be talked to like that anymore and write you so. And it's not behaviour anyone condones any more in kitchens. And I also think generally across other industries, I don't think it was just in catering that was like that. I think you talk about newsrooms, you talk about TV places. That bullying culture just cannot exist. So that's interesting. So you think it is a, well it's a societal shift. I think you're intermating and it's, yeah. And so are you in a situation where, for example, when you're much younger staff simply won't tolerate being shouted at or or or much or worse? Well, I think one, I don't think anyone necessarily needs to, wants to or needs to be shouted at. I think, but you can be firm and I think the thing is now is finding that fine line. You know, because I would, I can only talk for myself in a high pressured environment. You know, you want to make sure that the food's going out exactly as you want it. You want to make sure it's going out on time. And you know, sometimes you need that momentum in your voice to say, come on, let's hurry up. Let's get that going. You know, we've got another 50 covers coming through the door and another 100 after that. We can't be just doing it our own pace. We've got to move a bit. But I don't need to swear about someone to say that and I don't need to be aggressive or bullying. And I think being direct and firm is very different from bullying. And I think, well, you need to also establish a restaurant for my side is understand that's a pressured environment and you need to sort of go with the pace of it. It doesn't mean so I'm picking on you or you're going to have, you know, that's, you know, the worst thing that's going to happen to you in life. You know, that's just a high, you know, a very pressurised environment. So I think you need to understand that you need to sort of work in that environment. You need to understand what you want to do and if that's how you want to handle it. It's interesting because we were obviously all chatting about this in the news earlier and we reflected that the big names that jump out to you are all men and everyone said, you know, I have to ask you whether it's different when a woman is at the head. Do you think some kitchens under women are different or is that a gem? Can I not make it? It's a slight generalisation because I know that's not necessarily okay. And I can also speak for myself. I know at times I've lost it and I've sworn at people and screamed at someone and I'm like, you know, but then I want to be apologise. I do actually that is the difference. I say maybe that is the difference. I will go back and realise that wasn't the right behaviour and I'll call someone back and go, you know, I really didn't mean to shout at you like that, but you've got to understand what you were doing wasn't quite right even though that doesn't excuse that behaviour. And the reason being that's now cost me and the business, you know, couple hundred quid because you're up to comfortable because you were slower or you know what I mean. So, you know, I think it's understanding consequences when things go right because much like anything, there's a rhythm too and you need to know that if one table slower, then that's 10 tables behind that are then slow. And that's not just that one. And margins are tight, aren't they? I mean, there's a tough times for restaurants. At the moment it's very tough. Everything's going up, but it's always been going up. You know, since post covid, we're a great industry, we battle through it and we survive, but it's not easy at the moment. Any of the relief from the government's been taken away now, you know, minimum wage will go up in the next couple of weeks and that puts more costs on the business. I've been in the business now 30 plus years and when I started, it was very much a very basic figure of you'd make 25% profit, which was great these days, your profit margins, you know, if you're making 10% or 5%, you're very lucky. They are just being pulled aside now. That pressure environment really makes it hard for a lot of restaurant tours to deal with. Yeah, of course. Really good that you could come and talk to us. Thanks so much for your time, Angela Hartnett. Thanks for joining us. Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears. I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him. John Gilgurth, playing Mark Antony, as he convinces a Roman crowd to turn against the assassins of Julius Caesar. The speech is a Shakespearean archetype of political oratory and it's power to persuade perhaps fair to say that it's quite rare that a political speech these days has such momentous consequences, but once speech during a House of Commons debate on Tuesday about the possibility of ending jury trials for certain crimes has attracted attention and praise. This is Jeffrey Cox MP. He of the booming voice and highly successful legal career. He delivered an impassioned rebuttal of the government's case for the move. During one passage, he brought to mind the Justice Secretary David Lamy during his days as a backbench MP. He was framed against them and it was this Secretary of State in a different guise who was their champion and their voice and a jury trial is the most potent weapon and instrument against oppression, against injustice. And it serves not just those who are wealthy but those who are poor, not those who have a voice but those who do not. It is 12 members of the jury who will give a hearing to people who have otherwise no hearing. Well, the speech has one applaud it, but how does it compare to the political rhetoric of days gone by, including those classical orators such as Aristotle and Cicero? Well, I've been discussing it all with two experts. Professor Henrietta Fanderblom from the University of Birmingham, a specialist in Roman oratory. And first, Professor Richard Toy from the University of Exeter, whose expertise is in British Parliamentary rhetoric through history. I asked him, first of all, how good he thought Jeffrey Cox's erration was. I mean, I thought it was a good speech. I didn't think it was perhaps the most amazing speech of all time or one that will be sort of quoted in hundreds of years. I think he rather stood out because he was somebody who obviously spoke very confidently. He spoke sincerely. He was talking about an important topic. And I think what I liked about it was that he was genuinely trying to appeal or to persuade MPs who were in the room with him rather than just sort of grandstanding for a larger audience. But I suppose I thought that it's not so amazing that somebody can speak for 20 minutes without notes on a topic on which they're an expert. I think MPs really ought to be able to do that. And it probably just says something about the quality of other rhetoric, including other other parliamentary rhetoric that he actually does stand out. Professor Vanderblam, you study classical oratory. Cicero is a prime example. I mean, did you see echoes of Cicero in what he was saying and how he was delivering? Is that taking it too far? Absolutely. I did see things that you could say Cicero also did, whether he Cox took a leave out of Cicero's book. That's another matter. But what I thought was very striking was that the structure was that of a classical forensic speech by which I mean a court case speech. It had the opening, the exordium. It had what we call the neuratio, which is not narrative, but way layout. What do you present as facts? It had the argumentatio where you put in the proofs of what you are arguing. It had refutation, refutatio. So people coming in or he himself saying you might say. And then in the end, a pereratio, a conclusion where he rounds off by coming back to some of the points he had right at the start, his own personal experience as a backup for what he was doing. So in the structure, he was extremely classical. And I think it must be because he's a barrister and he's trained to think of arguments like that also when he's in the house. And Richard Toid, you referenced earlier that an MP should be able to make a speech in this way. And without notes, do you feel that there is a decline in speech making of this type? Well, I mean, I think it's, you know, for decades or centuries, people have been complaining about a decline in rhetoric, even in Greek or Roman times. They were doing so as well. And so I would be very cautious about saying, you know, everything has got worse. I think nonetheless, there are times when rhetoric has been better where there have been a range of more powerful speakers. But I mean, I suppose that what you've got to think about is it's not a question of necessarily people becoming less good as speakers, but rather the various pressures which are on them, which often compel them to, or it's appear to compel them to speak in ways, which you don't seem very convincing. And these are the pressures of the media, of social media, various ideological pressures to conform to the party line, all things which can create pressures to say things which are, which sort of fitting with what other people want to say or what you think will please other people at least will not get you into trouble, rather than coming out and speaking from the heart. And really, it's unusual, not I think that I'm sure there are plenty of MPs who can speak for 20 minutes without notes. But it is really the topic where there is an opportunity to speak on really a kind of an issue of conscience, I think. Professor van der Blom, how important is Orritry, these sort of speeches in democracy? I mean, he was discussing something fundamental, trial by jury. Absolutely. It matters because through the speech, a politician or any citizen really can convey their perspective through an argument which tries to convince people who are not necessarily in agreement. And this is what our democracy builds on. That kind of democratic debate is important in order to avoid echo chambers or people going into just agreeing with the converted. We need those debates and we need to think about how we can persuade those who are not persuaded. Geoffrey Cox did that in many ways in this speech, but he also called out those who had changed their minds. I mean, very clearly on the secretaries of state, if you go into the speech for that particular passage, he talks about, I remember when and I can hear him now and I know what he would be saying. And in those days, and it was this secretary of state who was their champion and their voice, so he conjures up this image of an earlier Lamy who is now being contrasted with the present Lamy on the front bench. That is not just giving a kind of historical example, which is a classical trope, but it's also a powerful image where people think, okay, here's a contrast. Here is a conflict. And who's side am I on? Am I with the Den Lamy or with the Nau Lamy? And so in that sense, he brings in through classical rhetorical theory that he puts into practice some very powerful arguments there. Henrietta Fanderblum and Richard Toy and that is the world tonight from me, Jane Hill and the team. Good night. Studio direction was by Alanne Bowles and the editor this evening Camilla Mills. We are happy to have you all here.