White Supremacy in Social Work – Charla Cannon Yearwood, LSW and Laura Hoge, LCSW

(upbeat music) - Welcome to Do In The Work, Frontline Stories of Social Change. Where we bring you stories of real people who are working to address real issues. I am your host, Shimon Cohen. (upbeat music) In this episode, I talk with Sharla Cannon Yearwood and Laura Hogue, two members of SW CARES, Social Work Coalition for Anti-Racist Educators. Sharla is a clinical assistant professor of field at Indiana University School of Social Work. Laura is a psychotherapist, community organizer, activist, and has been an adjunct professor at multiple universities. Sharla and Laura talk about SW CARES mission to dismantle white supremacy and social work education and why this mission is needed. They explain what they mean by white supremacy and social work and provide historical and current examples ranging from leaving out black and other social work leaders of color from history to practices that do more harm than good to communities of color, to how boundaries and other ethics often seem to be designed by white social workers for white social workers. There is so much covered in this episode and is just the start of these explicit conversations on the podcast. I hope this conversation inspires you to action. Hey Sharla, hey Laura, thanks so much for coming on the podcast and let's just jump right into this 'cause this is a huge topic. It could be a whole podcast in and of itself could be dedicated to this topic or a series or whatever, but let's just jump right in and start with talking about what do you mean when you talk about white supremacy in social work? That's a big question, Sharla, you want to try and take that one? - So I would say what we mean is white supremacy is a part of culture as a whole. Not just American culture really at this point it's the world's culture just like patriarchy. It is a belief system and is a part of every aspect of our life and that includes social work and we want to make sure to look at and consider how white supremacy is influencing social work not just every other system that exists. - Right, and I think the only thing I would add to that and I don't, is just that not only how it exists in practice but how it exists in how we educate practitioners, right? And so we are a group of people that came together just with a common shared interest and general frustration about how we're seeing our field in many ways acting outside of our purpose and values. And what can we do as a group to influence our field in a way that then trickles out into the way we practice from education all the way into the field? - To build on that, what we see is that social work is really good at addressing the ways that white supremacy influences and impacts other systems. How it impacts our political system, how it impacts our justice system but we're not always looking at how does it impact our own profession and the work that we're doing. And so we really wanted to make sure to put an emphasis and focus on ourselves, take the time to actually assess the work that we're doing and look at ways that we can change how we practice, how we teach and how we're preparing social workers so that we can actually dismantle the system. - Yeah, and just to put out there as well that when the term white supremacy gets talked about, I think for most people, the first thing that comes to mind are racist white nationalists, the KKK, neo-Nazi. So that's clearly not what's being talked about here. - No, that's not what we're talking about in social work. What we're talking about begins with the social work history of how our profession was found. Recognizing and understanding the impact that social work had in Indian removal acts in indigenous children being taken from their families and reeducated in boarding schools, that is the beginning of our child welfare system. And if we're not learning about that and recognizing that, we can misunderstand the ways that our profession interacts with those communities and those cultures. And so we want to, again, look at analyzing, assessing, understand how we have been complicit in white supremacy, how we remain complicit and look to change the way we're doing things. - Right, and also when we talk about systems, I guess for me as a white person showing up in a field that's dominated by white women, I think where the work becomes complicated and really essential is in how do we sort of look inward to our own internal system and how does racism show up in our life? Like we are not trying to dismantle racism and other weaving me like white women. Like how can we learn to dismantle it in ourselves and sort of understand that that's an ongoing process and the absence of that commitment leads to perpetuating white supremacy wherever we're placed in the field. We become more aligned with oppressive systems if we're not really examining the way the systems manifest in us without our consent, right? And that work has to really be intentional and it's often uncomfortable, which I think leads to an obstacle to that work. But if we're not doing that work, then our actions tend to be out of line with our values and we see that, and we have social workers right now that work in the criminal justice system, that work in adoption and, you know, we've been separating families for a very long time if this isn't new at the border, right? And so how has our idea of being helpful and of service, how have we missed the way we really caused harm in, you know, masquerading as help? - I think that if we can get folks to begin to understand that this is not a judgment, but it is an analysis and a building of understanding so that we can enact change and do something different. To recognize that there's white supremacy influencing social workers, not to say that social workers bad, social workers are bad, but they're not doing good work. But it is saying that this is part of the air that we breathe and if we want to dismantle these systems, if we want to actually support the communities that are marginalized, then we need to be looking at our own practice and having some uncomfortable conversations. - Yeah. - Yeah, and I want to get into some, you know, kind of like tangible things people can do, but before we get to that, you know, I kind of, I do want to go back to some of the history here. And if you could talk about, you know, some other ways that social work has been historically, you know, come at the work from a white supremacist model and also talk about some of the historical challenges to white supremacy because whenever there's white supremacy, there's resistance to white supremacy. And we got to talk about that too. - I mean, what comes up for me is, I mean, the fact that my students didn't know who I to be well was until I told them is a tragedy, right? I mean, we celebrate Jane Adams as the mother of social work. And I think that, you know, there was a lot of good work that has been done, but we also haven't really critically, I mean, in the institutions I have taught at, critically sort of examined the impact of marginalizing black women and the suffrage movement, right? And, you know, how do we have these conversations? Like Charlotte said, without sort of taking a broad brush, dismantling the field. Like it's being able to challenge ourselves and lean into the discomfort and the messiness of like, I'm not sure how to move forward because we need to do that in order to embrace a very intentional and effective education process and an effective work really in the field. - When I look at social work history and how it's often taught and how we often talk about like Jane Adams as kind of creating and leading this profession, I think we're missing out on the social justice movements aspect of our profession. And we are defining our profession in really loose ways. Is it based on degree that defines you as a social worker or not a social worker? And if so, then what privileges and rights come with that and how's that, you know, a part of this messiness of white supremacy? But we're not talking about the founding of the Urban League. And the Urban League is found around the same time with a leadership that graduated from Columbia with what became the social work program. So it exists the history exists of non-white people, black people being a part of the founding and creation of social work and the direction that's gone. But it's not what we are teaching in our classrooms when we talk about the history of social work. And you know, I think that there's some understanding that when we don't highlight the impact in the contributions of black people, of non-white people in these spaces, we are teaching a lesson of who owns it, who's responsible for it. it and who is the savior and who is being taken care of. And there's a lot of saviorism and those kind of ideas that are very entrenched in social practice. And so again, that's just part of what we want to address and why we think it's so important that we develop a history that is rich and shows the diversity of our profession. I'm just going to put something out there that I've been thinking about. Is it just me or like what is up with the term pioneer? I don't think I heard that. Well, social, I've heard of like social or pioneers, I guess. Yeah. And the word pioneer gives me thoughts and feelings. Yeah, I can have a reaction. Yeah. I mean, I will say like, you know, I can only speak to the institutions that I've been teaching and I do think it's definitely a widespread problem. I've heard it. This talked about quite a bit, but I do think that there are institutions that are addressing this, especially use. And I think that there's some really good work coming out of Texas. And I think that, you know, I do want to sort of acknowledge that there is there is a movement to to address these these things. And I don't want to erase that work. Absolutely. That actually speaks to me of another challenge within social work that perpetuates the white supremacy. And that is in publications and whose voice is the loudest in telling our story. I think that there are a lot of social workers of color. Black and Latina, Latina, Latinx faculty who are doing research who are developing work around the history of social work around the around best practices working with non-white communities. And that that material is not distributed the same way because of the entrenchment of white supremacy within our profession. You know, there's lots of work on what white supremacy culture is and written word and certain types of research, certain practices. And we maintain that. And that's how we distribute what is so short, what is our history. And so that's another, again, another piece that we need to challenge and address that we can get to a place where we are a profession actually living out its core values and the code of ethics. So let's talk about SW cares and how you all came to be and what kind of work you're doing. Yeah. So I mean, I think I came out, I can I joined the group a little bit later. I'm not sure if we joined around the same time Charlotte, but essentially we're, yeah, we're, you know, a bunch of folks who just are really interested in addressing the racism that we see in our white supremacy culture that we see in our institutions and, you know, our roles as gatekeepers wanting to be really intentional there. And so the coalition was built, you know, just through a mutual shared interest. I think we all share a very similar view of wanting to be multidisciplinary and like sort of understanding our impact, the impact our field has had on other fields and on, you know, understanding, you know, amplifying voices of first, you know, first person experiences. And just in any way helped support our profession from like a strength space perspective of how did, how can we do this work? How can we sort of dig in together and link up and understand how to move forward with, with an awareness that the work is going to be uncomfortable and somewhat messy, but also a commitment to sort of making sure that the impact that our profession has is in line with, you know, who we say we are and who we really want to be. So, you know, we're a relatively new organization. I think we're still kind of figuring out how to best, how to best show up. But I think that that would sort of speak to our values. I mean, you can see more about our mission and values if you went to our website, which is SWcares.org. So it's a little bit, it's much more explicitly spelled out who we want to be and how we want to support institutions and practitioners. Yeah, we all, it began with a couple of faculty members who had an interest in addressing and looking to study and understand the ways that wise supremacy shows up in social work and wanting to build on anti-racism skills. And then from there relationships have been forged with others who are like-minded and we continue to look to grow, but we also want to be really intentional about understanding what our purpose and goals are. Right now, we're looking to develop trainings, put together workshops, create publications, share publications, get information out to to educators so that they have the skills and tools to be able to help foster conversations around how wise supremacy influences our profession. Both for their research, for our professional understanding and for students growth and learning. So I'm really hoping that, you know, this episode can serve as a training tool, a teaching tool. And, you know, I think one way to do that is to just get into some of the ways, as you say, that white supremacy shows up in social work. You know, if we can just, if you could just go through some concrete examples so that people, you know, listen into the podcast, can start to learn from that. I will say that some of the ways that white supremacy shows up in social work, to begin, we often talk about issues in silos. We will talk about clinical practice, we will talk about macro practice, we will talk about criminal justice, we will talk about schools, and then we will talk about diversity and inclusion separately. And what we want to get to a place of is understanding that white supremacy is again part of the air that we breathe. And it is influenced in a part, it influences every part of our practice, no matter where, where we're practicing. And so when you understand the issues of every practice area, you can see that there's elements of white supremacy, a part of the challenges that they're facing. And we're not always on the forefront of addressing those. So in schools, when there is a high suspension rate for black and brown students, how are school social workers actively addressing and looking to impact and influence training and education for teachers so that they are not, so that they understand and recognize their biases, and so that we can create healthy, safe school environments for students. Many of the clinical practices that we use were created by and for white males, and we are using them and pathologizing communities of color with this material. We focus on individualism, we're talking about self-care versus community care. These are all examples of how we as social workers say we're addressing issues, but aren't necessarily touching the messy parts. An easy example is what's happening at the border, there are social workers who are a part of removing children from families. And I understand that they're probably reconciling in their mind that otherwise these children will be in cages, where else are they going to go. So I'm placing them in a foster care home, I'm trying to find them the best placement, they are feeling like they're in the trenches doing their work, but how much pushback are they giving to the fact that this is a disgusting and disturbing process that operates outside of our code of ethics. And how are we as a profession holding those social workers accountable in those spaces or supporting those social workers in those spaces so that we can dismantle the white supremacy that exists at the border or in school's clinical practice. I mean for me what it really comes down to is if we're not, if we're only focused on needs assessments, right, if we're only focused on filling or on filling needs or meeting needs, and we're not focused on closing the gap that you know if we're focused on filling gaps, right, we're not focused on closing gaps. We are we become like exploitive, right, we are making a living off of the pain caused by an oppressive system without really challenging the power that caused that pain to begin with. So you know what I have done in some of my classes and this has been pretty interesting is I have challenged people you know part of the curriculum is that we have to do these needs assessments and I don't allow them without an analysis of power. So if if there's any kind of assignment that I give my students, I'm always asking them to look at it from two different levels, right, like we do want to meet people's needs, right, people need housing, people need food, people need, you know, all of these people sometimes need need foster care, right, but how are we dismantling the power that's causing those needs to begin with? How are we looking at policies that are leading families in poverty and how does that impact their children, their rights being terminated, right? How are we looking at the fact that there's policies now that are going to be taking away access to food for families that are poor, right? Like we need to be looking at who benefits from the needs that are that exist because if we're not doing that work, how are we going to Before we not aligned with oppressive systems, right? And I get it, I mean, I get that it feels right, like it's intuitive to say, okay, like I want to be working in helping to make sure that these children are being fed. Like I get that, like absolutely. But if that's all we're doing, then we're not really creating, helping to create sustainable change. And that's not really very empowering. In fact, it's quite infantilizing. And I know that that's not our intention, but it ends up being the impact. A great quote that I heard that speaks to this for me is, we can't program our way out of poverty. We can't just put, after school programs in a community and all of a sudden, there's not going to be poverty that exists. We really have to understand the powers and the systems that make that community impoverished. And sometimes, although we talk, we do a really good job in social work of talking about understanding the system that leads to this community being impoverished. We don't necessarily put that understanding into practice, especially beyond school and education. And so your work begins to be focused on creating a new workshop, getting new volunteers, putting a new activity in place for this community. And really it's just mandating and creating jobs for privileged folks who already have education and access to the resources and aren't part of the community that you're then serving. So we need to be looking at what is creating the need for after school programs to be rolled out in one community over the other and how are we being complicit or aiding into that system when we are part of community groups that offer funding, yes, but they also give the rich and powerful in your city a pat on the back to feel like they're actually addressing issues that they're creating. You just need to be a little bit more intentional and not afraid to disrupt the system, right? You know, when you're talking about people who are not part of the communities, there's also in terms of social work students and social workers who come from the very communities that they are going to go back and work in a lot of my students. And you know, what can happen is that they get trained in such a way that they feel torn between their community and now this professional way of having to be. And I was wondering if you had some thoughts about that. You know, as Charlotte was talking what I was thinking about is also just how, yeah, we also make higher education very inaccessible to communities that tend to be more marginalized, right? I mean, I think about what's required for me as a, I'm a psychotherapist so that as a clinician on top of go, if I were to go to school full time, which I wasn't really able to do, I would also have to do an internship. And if I was also feeding a family, like there's no way that I could have done that, right? And so we make it almost impossible for people with lived experience to really be able, you know, to get that title protection, right? And so then how does, how does lived experience really become a part of the conversation? If it's not really intentionally created, it's not always present. And so I do think, you know, when I think about my students who are mostly black and brown, you know, there is that, that experience that you're describing, that's what I've, you know, that's certainly been vocalized in some of my classes. And it's just like, you know, it becomes, usually it's in the context of conversations about ethical dilemmas, right? Because it's like, okay, but like my pastor actually knows way better how to make a connection and has buy in in this community doesn't have title protection. So, you know, what should be making a living probably does it better than half of the people, you know, other students in class, right, please, so. And so it does become a bit of an ethical dilemma does because to practice really in the best entrances of the community becomes, it comes into conflict with what we would consider to be, you know, standards of practice, I guess. Absolutely. Laura and I had a conversation earlier today where I was talking to her about ethical dilemmas that I felt based as a black woman in social work and that my instinctual way to relate to connect to community would not fly with some of our colleagues. They would see it as poor boundaries. It would be examples of ethical dilemmas, but it just, it wouldn't be acceptable, but it is the only way that I can build the relationships necessary to do the work. And it also is culturally intuitive to me and to the people who I'm serving. So that's another area where that white supremacy creeps into our practice those, I would say that some ways that we interpret and talk about the code of ethics is from a perspective and point of view that the client and the social worker on two different planes, they're from two different communities, they're not connected and that there shouldn't be an overlap and that there isn't one that naturally exists. And that in of itself is problematic, we should, if we do or it's totally fine to be a part of the neighborhood, I use an example in my class this sometimes of living in a neighborhood where I also will get a community center in that neighborhood and the neighborhood kid wants to cut my grass, is he a client, is he my neighbor, where do these lines cross am I paying a client to do a service for me, that can, that's part of community and it's a beautiful thing, it's a good thing, it's a cultural thing and social work can give the message that that's not okay, that's one of the ways that white supremacy shows up in our profession. Yeah, I mean, I know from my experience as a white man doing cross cultural work a lot of the ways that, especially when I was going into people's homes, if I didn't eat the food that they offered me, there was no way they were signing up their kids to come hang out at our youth program, like it was not going to happen. So I ate the food, like, I mean, oh my god, like, you know, the world ended in, you know, some textbooks somewhere. Yeah, absolutely. The other thing I wanted to talk about is the deficit way of looking at things that, you know, that I think is connected to white supremacy and perfectionism, but this, you know, you brought up pathologizing communities of color and there's a way that, you know, our education, our social work education looks at communities of color, communities and poverty from everything that's wrong, rather than everything that's going well, and it happens with our students, too, the way certain students are looked at as well through a deficit lens. One of the things that we talk about in SW cares is that oftentimes programs, social programs have a course on diversity, have a course on marginalized identities and they, we don't have a course on white people. We don't have anything where we're studying and understanding white people, the way that white people operate, what the way white people influence the world and culture, challenges of that, we don't, we don't talk about that. And by not talking about that, we are making white normal and everything that is covered in diversity class, them, those diversity, the issue. And that in and of itself is a strong message to our students that they have special needs. These marginalized people is black, brown, queer, women, they are special. And we have to treat them special, we need to do things special for them, but never anything about whiteness or how white needs to be treated care for, addressed, anything. And so we want to balance out the conversation and address whiteness head on as a culture, as an identity, and what whiteness needs because that speaks to how we begin to pathologize marginalized communities because it's them that have an issue, but we're never talking about things that are quote, quote, normal for white folks, that doesn't, that's not necessarily normal for everyone, but we will say, but they do this when talking about black or brown folks. And it's, it's perpetuating white supremacy, it's saying that they're different, they need, they need special treatment, they need to be cared for differently. differently, you're going to school to learn how to do for black and brown people, and it's not needed, it's not necessary, and again, we talk about these things theoretically, really well, but the LGBTQ community does not need something to be great and to grow. The straight community needs to get off their necks and move out the way, and just the same, black and brown people, black and brown communities don't need a fix so that they can thrive and do well. They need white people to move the guy out of the way and stop oppressing them. But we're not talking about that, we're just talking about how we can save and feel good about giving little tokens of whatever to these communities versus how we can get out of the way so that those communities can actually be as great as they are. I mean, I think also it doesn't always show up as a deficit too, right? You see communities that are seen as other or them being exoticized as well, right? And so I think when you say deficit, I'm very much in line with what Charlotte is saying and that it's more sort of like normal and them, right? What is white being seen as sort of the default and everything else, something else that needs to be assimilated in a lot of ways, right? And I'm glad you mentioned queer folk and trans people and it's not lost on me in this conversation that I have in my master's degree program, I had to sort of create my own specialty, I specialize in LGBTQ issues, quote, unquote, right? So, you know, in order to really, you know, have a specialty, I had to learn about those people, quote, unquote, of which I'm apart. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I will speak to my own experience in my MSW program. I only heard my community talked about in a deficit language, even when the theories and everything that we talked about were, let's talk about things using a streets-based approach. It still was a condescending idea of, look, they have strong families, like why wouldn't they have strong families, it was uncomfortable, is this appointing, it's frustrating, because when you read the code of ethics, when you read the values of our profession, we know this stuff on paper so well. We understand theoretically that we should be straight-space, that it is not a deficit of marginalized communities, but that it is others who oppress, we understand systems. But we don't practice in a way that shows that understanding, and we don't assess our own profession in our own teaching in a way that shows that understanding. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think, you know, back to what you had said earlier in terms of like who gets to be considered a social worker, you know, as you're talking, I'm thinking about community activists, you know, going way back like the Black Panther Party, and how they created the free breakfast programs that are now in every school, you know, that the government took, adopted that, but at the same time, destroyed them. Yeah. They had, you know, sickle cell anemia clinics in the street, healthcare, in the community, I've never heard of them being talked about as social workers. Right. And that, that history, those conversations are, again, part of what's missing from our curriculum, social work students come from everywhere with all kinds of backgrounds. And so we don't know that they know that information already, and that just needs to be a part of the way that we shape everyone's understanding of who we are as a profession. Yeah. Um, you know, as we're kind of wrapping things up here, I just want to give, you know, give you another opportunity to just kind of put out there whatever you want to put out there about this topic, SWKers, the work you're doing, this is your platform. Sure. I mean, I think, you know, one, there are a few things that have been sort of rattling around as we're talking, but one, one point that I think that is important to make is that we, we, we don't, our organization isn't acting from like a position of scarcity, right? Like we are trying to build coalitions, we are not trying to sort of build ourselves as some sort of like all knowing, you know, um, organization, right? And so, you know, we're all about shared power, we're all about collaboration, we're all about feedback, right? Um, you know, one thing that I think that we prioritize is that is, is just a, a desire to have difficult conversations, right? And a desire to talk openly about sort of the messiness of that and help one another to lean into that discomfort and, and embrace this, you know, and see this, see this work as radical, right? See that discomfort as radical. So I was talking to a colleague earlier and he, you know, that was something that he had said is like, you know, we have to be able to reframe that as a radical act. And I, and I do think our field is positioned to do that work, you know, we have a few, you know, a few, we've got some emotions to kind of get past for sure, but I, I do, I do really believe in our field. I believe that we are, we are able to really roll up our sleeves and dig in together. And that's really what we're hoping to do. Yes. I would agree. Social work cares is looking to address the way that white supremacy is woven throughout our profession. Not looking to fault anyone or say that anyone is practicing appropriately. We're just looking to push our profession and the way that we educate to the next level and live up to the values and ideas that are sort of ethics outline. We are not all knowing at all. We really want to gather information that other people already have in the place where people can get that shared information, but we can help distribute it and hold our profession accountable as a collective. Including ourselves, right? Absolutely. Another big thing is that we need to have an understanding that social work is made up of majority white women. And there is a specific way that racism shows up and is perpetrated by white women. And we need to be honest about that, address that, face that, and fix it. Because it is harming and hurting the communities that we say that we want to serve in ways that would look different if we were a profession led by white men. And I don't think that that is seen, talked about, or addressed head on in the ways that it needs to be. We are really comfortable with talking about patriarchy, we are really comfortable. We're growing and are comfortable talking about LGBTQ issues. All things that still affect black folks, all think that still affect other people of color groups. But we aren't as comfortable with saying racism is a part of our profession. And that is because the white women who are the overwhelming majority in our profession don't want to address that elephant in the room because that needs addressing themselves. And we want to, as a group, be really explicit in saying that we know that that is part of the issue. We're going to walk people through and work on that as a group. But it has to be something that everyone is willing to face in their dress. I'm trying to decide if I should ask a follow-up to that. Just leave it because that was the doorknob fig at the end of a session where it's like that could be a whole discussion in and of itself. It needs to be. Well, I mean, why don't we talk about it? Is the right question, what are some of the ways that it shows up? Where's the next, where do we go with that conversation? I would really challenge everyone but especially white folks to build an understanding of their own culture. We are immersed in white culture, but I don't think we have an understanding of white culture. The history of whiteness, how whiteness portrays itself, expresses itself, influences our everyday lives, and when we do that, we can see and understand that whiteness, I mean, though whiteness positively privileges white women, just like it does white men. No white women do not have access to the same privileges that white men do, but they do have access to privileges that black men do. And we need to be honest about that, recognize that, and look to understand how it's still influencing our profession. the way that they're, I don't know. don't want to speak to what I know there's lots of research and other folks who are really strong experts in discussing the ways that white supremacy shows up. From white women, there's lots of articles and materials out there. You can find many of them on our social support cares website. But there are ways that white women perpetuate white supremacy and that's you know from Emmett Till to stories today of you know a kid who accidentally brushes up against a white woman's butt in a gas station. There are ways that white women perpetuate any barbecue veggie all these things. There's ways that white women specifically perpetuate white supremacy and that is still apparent in social work and we need to be honest about that and look to address that specific way that it shows up and not just talk about talk about white supremacy talk about racism but get to walk away from the table with yeah that's what those people do. That's real thank you both so much for taking the time to come on here you know I don't think there's necessarily a good way to end this conversation I think that this is a start and I'm not saying like this is the start there's been many conversations about this but this is the first like totally explicit conversation on the podcast about this there's definitely other episodes where white supremacy and racism have been discussed but this you know I hope that this conversation sparks and inspires people um social workers students educators to really educate ourselves more about this and take action you know and have difficult conversations I'm going to link the um you know the social workers website and the show notes so people can access that and you know just thank you both again and thanks for doing the work and the community. Well thank you I really appreciate you letting us tell you a little bit about what we're doing and for you contributing in so many ways to similar work. Absolutely this was nerve-wracking from that we did it yeah I know hoping hoping um hoping we give people to think uh yeah but I'll open to getting feedback and learning myself so thanks yeah thank you for listening to doing the work front line stories of social change I hope you enjoyed the podcast please follow on Twitter and leave positive reviews on iTunes if you're interested in being a guest or know someone who's doing great work please get in touch and thank you for doing real work to make this world a better place.