Where Is The Line For AI in Game Development?

[MUSIC] It makes sense that Donkey Kong fuels his bananza mode with banan energy, but he generates banan energy primarily by collecting gold. Huh. Welcome to Triple Click where we bring the games to you. This week we're opening the mailbag to tackle your questions about fan casting, Jason's new book, AI Tools in Game Development, our favorite made up video game words, and so much more. Stick around. I'm Kirk Hamilton. I'm Maddie Myers. And I'm Jason Shire. Hello. Hello. We're back for another episode. And it's question time. You guys ready for some questions? I love questions. I am ready for some questions. And for the first question, you might be wondering, can you support Triple Click in some way? That is the third question. That has always been. Yeah, that's always been my third question. Yeah. Yes, it's the most burning question of all. Burning at the hottest temperature. How could you possibly support Triple Click if you wanted to? And the answer to that is, well, you could become a member. That's one way. Become a member of Maximum Fun. We are a 100% listener supported show. We make this show purely with all of your support. So MaximumFun.org/join. That lets you become a member of our network. Support Maximum Fun. Support Triple Click and get access to monthly bonus episodes that we put out. There's a ton of them now because we've been around for a long time. You could also buy some merch. That's another way to support us. And there is a bunch of new merch and a bunch of new designs in the Maximum Fun store. There's a link for that in the show notes. I know some folks have been ordering things. We've gotten some requests that we're going to fulfill, actually. Someone requested a desk pad or a mouse pad. And we can do that. So that's going to be in the store at some point. Maybe by the time you're hearing this, that'll be added to the store. So there's a bunch of great designs. Some of the designs we had at our live show. We'll be adding some more later this year too. So we're beefing up the Triple Click merch situation. So by all means, go buy some merch. That also supports us. So yeah, there's two ways that you can support Triple Click. And thank you so much to everyone who does so. Because really, you're the reason we make this show. You're the reason we're able to keep this thing going. So thanks so much to all of the Maximum Fun Members out there listening. And all right, let's get into some more questions. We've answered the first most important question. Jason, why don't you take us away for some additional questions? Yeah, this week we are answering some of your questions. As always, these are our questions that are coming straight to our inbox at [email protected]. So that's where you can mail us your own questions. And as always, keep them short, keep them interesting. Don't ask questions that people have asked before, etc, etc. You guys know the rules. Let's get into it. Maddie, why don't you read this first one? Sure. So this one's from Elias, who writes, "A question occurred to me while listening to your recent episode on Donkey Kong, Bonanza. What is the ideal skill level of a game reviewer? Maddie talked about how she's directionally challenged and how that made her appreciate some of the map features in the game. If Maddie had been a quote unquote "better gamer," that might not have occurred to her. And that sense her quote "lack of ability." I feel like I got to include the scare quotes here because I do understand what Elias is getting at. Quote "lack of ability" in this particular area enabled her to better assess the game. In a way, the better of a gameplayer you become, the less your experience of playing the game resembles an ordinary person's experience with the same game. Does that ever affect your ability to review a game? The ideal reviewer is just as bad as Maddie is. That's right. What Elias is trying to say. That's why I'm the ideal reviewer. Is because of how bad I am. I had kind of everything. Because I feel like it's worth noting. I'm also directionally challenged in real life. I wasn't just talking about video games when I said that. I met across the board like. It is a funny question. There could be some ideal reviewer that's like a median gamer. That's the closest to the maximum number of people. They're just okay at every single thing. By and large, gamers reviewers are very far from the median. They're usually people who play a whole lot of video games and are very good at them. These days, it's usually, you know, whoever's going to review the next from soft game is someone who's played every one of those games in a million times. And you know, then complains about how the new one is too easy and you have to kind of figure out what that means. But of course, that's not actually the ideal gamer reviewer. The ideal gamer reviewer is someone who can very clearly articulate how they experience the game in a way that people will understand. However, similar or differently, they may play games themselves. Mm-hmm. It's a challenge, though. When I was still assigning people to review games at Polygon, I would try to do it every which way. Like, sometimes I'd have a review by somebody who's like, "I've played every game in the series." And I'm an expert on this, but other times it would be fun to tap in somebody who had no familiarity and would just be like, "Here's my take on this, and I'm a total newcomer to this." And it did or didn't welcome me. It's also good to do that, I think, as an editor. If the game is marketing itself as being really friendly to somebody who's a newcomer, in that case, you can have an actual newcomer try it and find out if that's true. But I don't think it is better or worse. I feel like that's part of why I tried to mix it up is because I don't think there is one true answer to this. And ideally, you have a review section that shows that a whole lot of different people play games. And they might not all have the same experience with it. The, I think that the kind of the deeper issue here is that there's always this tension in a review between recommendation and the kind of product review aspect of it and the critique and cultural criticism and the question of, like, where does this game fit in society? And what does it mean artistically? And what is the experience of playing it like? And sometimes you can blend the two or take aspects of both for a strong review that tries to do both at once. But oftentimes reviews, as we think of them, the ones that come out right before the game comes out that have a score on them that are aggregated on Metacritic, those tend to be more product-reviewing. And it's more, it's helpful if you're looking for more of a product review. It's helpful to have a review from someone who is familiar with the genre because they'll be able to offer a lot more context and kind of put it in perspective. If I want to know how old and ring is, I probably want to read a review from someone who has played Dark Souls games before, whether or not they're graded at them, they have to have a passing familiarity. Otherwise, there's not enough context for me to really know if I'll appreciate the game if someone is like, "This is my first one ever." Unless it's also my first one ever, I guess, but still. I think generally, familiarity is more helpful for that lens of it. But from a cultural criticism and kind of like an artistic point of view, I think it can be helpful to look at it from both perspectives or at least they can both provide a fresh take. It just might not be as useful if you're wondering about the new 3D Mario and the reviewer has never played a 3D platformer before to know whether or not you should get it. Yeah, I don't know. I'm sure there's someone out there. They're 10 years old and they're an amazing writer. And it's the most greatest reviews. So yeah, I don't know. I think it's kind of like, it depends what you're looking for in a review, I suppose. Or put it another way. I think there are some reviews that are more, you get more out of when you read them before you play a game. And there's some that you get more out of when you read them after you play a game. And the ones that are kind of like post-playing, I think it can be really cool. And interesting to read something from like someone who has no familiarity or is terrible at a game to read what it was like for them. You know, this is a thought that's going to sound like I'm making a joke, but I'm not, but an actual, like a really great way to understand a game is to listen to three people talk about it. Where one person is maybe incredibly familiar with that style of game. Maybe one person is say quote unquote, directionally challenged and like struggles with some certain part of it. Another person is new to it, but is open to the experience and asks questions of the veteran. That is actually a really fantastic format that circumvents just the problem that you were laying out. Wow, so true. Wow. So this is something that I think podcasts do really well, the kind of conversational group review as well, because it takes something that on a website would involve two different things and combines them into one thing. And I think if you think of, I don't know why it has to be one thing, but talking about a game review, the idea is oh wait, it needs to be one thing. Where ideally on a website, you have a review that's like kind of a short thing from someone who really knows what they're talking about. And just is like yeah, this one's a good one. Or it has this problem or whatever. Like they lay out the product recommendation. And then you have an essay from another person who's like a creative interesting writer who isn't as familiar with it and takes a different angle on it. Like it's two separate things and they work really well as two separate things. But it is nice to kind of blend them together and you can actually get that because on a podcast or something like this because you have multiple perspectives so you can include all of them at once. That's actually very helpful I think. Except it doesn't really work for us because we're all amazing at video games. Right, yeah. Right, yeah. All the different things. We all like the same kind of games. And also we all agree every time. Yes, we have very identical faces and totally agree about it is true. Okay, here's the next question. This is from Andy. Andy says, "What is the funniest made up video game word and why?" This question is brought to you by Benana Energy. Benana Energy. Benana Energy. How do you say it Benana Energy? It's not Benana Energy. I think Benana Energy would be fun. It's Benana Energy. Benana Energy. Benana Energy is funny. Okay, I'm verifying my opinion. They're both very funny. I've got one. Transfarring. Very good. Just as explain the context of that because people are not really happy with the layer. I'm going to do my best. This was a Konami thing. I believe I hate Okajima thing. During a Konami press conference, the idea was transferring your save between. Was it piecewalker on PSP and. Anyways, it was like two different Metal Gear games. The idea of basically what we now think of as just Cloud saves or being able to access, I suppose it's a little more complicated since it's accessing the save from one game and another game and then having the data move between them, but it is a concept that is now widespread and I think it's just thought of as Cloud saves. But at the time they introduced it as this new, fangled idea called Transfarring, which I think is like what, it's a portmanteau of transferring and what-- Yeah, that's really my question. Maybe. So it was being pronounced Transfarring then? Transfarring, but it's got two R's. Anyhow, it's a very funny word. It became a meme immediately. I remember seeing it for years without knowing what it was because I hadn't watched the press conference. I knew it was Kojima related and had something to do with Cloud saves, but I just feel I have to mention it. Let's get in response to this question. Maddie, do you have one? God, I was trying to decide what from Destiny or Destiny 2 I wanted to choose, and it's almost impossible. That entire series is just full of these. I don't know. They're also amazing. I really can't even imagine where to begin. I was looking at some of the-- I mean, I also do find the fact that the word shaders is overused in video games is pretty funny, though. Just the fact that we all have to talk about shaders all the time. I like that. I never thought about shaders before I started playing PC games. And now I think about shaders all the time. Why do they take so long to load? I don't know. I'm always loading shaders now. It's all I'm ever doing. I'm loading shaders. I'm shading my weapon. My weapon is shading. It's being shaded right now. And that's what I'm doing. I don't know. What if I could choose it? TMI. OK, I got a couple. One is Day Life from the video game title Various Day Life, which is a game like Sparion X. Oh, sure. What is Day Life? What does that mean? Day Life-- it's never explained in the game as far as I know. But you just know it. Day Life. It's your day to day life. It's just-- And Various Day Life means the days are different. Your day life's are different every single day. Do they just really say Day Life? I have no idea. I've never played that game. The other one is immersive, which is just a made up of pufferies. That's what video games that has zero meaning. Like visceral, visceral. Artists invented. Just invented for-- Oh my god. This is like a game reviewer word is immersive, really. Yeah, immersive. It's so immersive. This game is so immersive. By the way, Jason, you've cursed me with bombastic. I see it misuse everywhere now. It's upsetting. I feel like we're losing that battle. Just by the way. Oh yeah, we've been losing that battle for years. It's been using-- I do see it correctly used occasionally. I do see it. But it's very happening. It feels like we're losing ground. I'm just noting it. It's correctly used in the New York Times and video game websites. It's misused every single day. And actually, my one more thing. The book I was reading was-- It's coming out in movie criticism too. It's happening. It's everywhere now. Oh god. Yeah, I mean, it's just-- yeah, it's embarrassing. People see bombastic and they're like, oh, it's explosive without actually knowing what that word means. Kirk, what's the next question? All right, this next question comes from Ivan, who writes, "Hello, Jason Kirk and Maddie, with Hollywood obsessed with tech-focused biopics. Biopics? It's biopics, right? That's what I was saying. Biopics? Oh, sorry. Acceptable. I think when I-- I think there was a time where in my head I pronounced biopics. Oh, people-- there were people out there saying biopic. Now, do I agree with them? No. But it's a biopic. It's a biopic. It's-- I agree. I'm glad all three of us agree on this. It's biopic. Ivan's question, how do you pronounce biopics? It sounds like those people are getting biopic about biopics. Oh, I know. So Ivan writes, "With Hollywood, so biopically obsessed with tech-focused biopics, who would you cast in the lead roles of a play-nice movie? And who would direct the film? Fantastic question. Jason, I'm sure that you have fan-casted and fan-crued the adaptation of your best-selling book. And I'm curious what you think. Yeah, play-nices, of course. My new book about the rise, Fall in Feature, Blizzard Entertainment. I think for the purposes of this discussion, we can just limit it to the three key characters in the book, which I'll say in a second. Yeah, here's what I'm thinking. I think my ideal director would be David Fincher, director of the social network. Yeah. I agree. Be adapted by Aaron Sorkin. And Aaron Sorkin writes it. And my three main characters are Alan Adham, the one of the two founders of Blizzard, Rami Malek, played by Rami Malek. That's what I was going to say. I was-- I thought of Rami Malek heading into this. I was like, Rami Malek, perfect. I saw him in my mind when I was reading the book, and I was fan-casting the book. That's a good one. It's a good one. You could nail it. Because it's a very cinematic book, parentheses complimentary. Thank you. Mike Mourheim, the other co-founder of Blizzard, Jesse Eisner. Mm-hmm. Do you think he's old enough? I mean, I guess we need everyone to be kind of Rami Malek's age so that we're like in the right zone. Well, it depends when the book takes place, but it would be over the course of a few decades. Exactly. So we're going to also age them up using all the cool technology that they have now. Yeah. Also Mourheim in the 90s when Blizzard has started, he had this nice two-fro. Cauted. That would be perfect for Jesse Eisner. And here's my most inspired casting choice. You guys ready for this? This is amazing. You're going to love this. Bobby Codic is played by John Loveitz. I thought you were going to say-- So we're going to be playing Bobby Codic on. John Loveitz. Think about it. Just think about it. Just like Google their pictures, that I saw. I think about the boys similar profile. They have-- Because you know Bobby Codic, pretty good actor. Pretty good. That's true. He can play himself. Could play himself. I don't think that would work so well on the buy-out. Yeah. Might be challenging getting him on board for it. Don't want him to play himself. No. John Loveitz is a good choice. It's hard to think of somebody else now that he said that. Is love that's acting? Is he like-- I'm going to be sorely doing anything anymore. Or are you really doing anything lately? Yeah, I don't know. He's going to come out of retirement just to do this. I bet I could come back to that. I could see it. Well, I would see that movie for sure. Yeah, that would be amazing. Do you guys have answers? Or should we move to the next one? Oh, no, I can't be so much-- I came in with Romney Melican. That's all I had. But I'm glad we agree. OK. All right. Let's get to the next question. Maddie, when I read this next one. Sure. This one's from Zeno, who writes, "I just finished listening to Jason's three books on the video game industry, and they've sold they crushed any lingering aspiration I had to ship from UX design of apps and websites to game design parentheses LOL. UX pays the bills. But for the eight years in this career, I failed to find satisfaction, which I've come to learn as crucial for my silly little brain. With a second burnout looming, I want to know, do you have any advice on finding work that makes one happy? How might I balance the search for satisfaction with the need to maintain financial stability for my expensive equine son? Is that like a metaphor? Right. We spent a minute pondering this. So I think we did get a little sidetracked on the expensive equine son. And we're assuming that this is a horse-- Yes. --of a horse. Zeno, do you have a horse? If you had a son who was really into horses and that was an expensive hobby, that would be true. But I believe you would then use a question for your son's interest. Right. OK. So with that said, let's try and-- That's right. It's an interesting question. And it's a really interesting question, because this is something every single person on this planet has to think about at some point in their life. Especially millennials. And also, yeah, it is a very millennial thing, because a lot of millennials-- I don't really know how Gen Z are growing. If Gen Z are growing up with the same thing in green in them, but a lot of them are all just vaping lead-- --and show losing their minds and becoming Trump conservative. I don't know if this carried forward. But millennials, a lot of us-- probably most of us grew up being told you should major in whatever you are passionate about. And you should want to do what you're passionate about, because a lot of us grew up raised by baby boomers, a lot of whom were in positions where they had to take whatever jobs were available. And maybe they found them soulless and crushing and they wanted their kids to go and pursue passionate careers. And a lot of millennials wound up majoring in the arts and humanities and theater and film. And that did not-- Great. --that did not steal a lot of them super well. Maybe some of us-- I mean, including the three of us, we're lucky enough to have jobs that are creatively satisfying and allow us to do interesting things that we care about. But a lot of other people had to make sacrifices and compromises and give up on those dreams. A lot of people I know certainly did. And sometimes like having to make a choice for the bigger paycheck over the creative satisfaction is necessary and also allows you to be satisfied in other parts of your life. So yeah, it's a really interesting question that doesn't really have one answer. Well, I have something I can recommend at least, which is an exercise that I invented for myself like 12 years ago when the Phoenix went out of business. And I was on existential journey for what I would do next. And something I did was I made a list of everything I really liked to do work-wise, just like basic things, like managing people or writing, that kind of bliss. And then I made a list of things I think I'm good at. And those two things are not the same. There are work tasks that you like to do and there are work tasks that you are good at. And then I tried to find the overlap between those two things. There weren't, there were things that I think I'm good at that I don't really like to do. And it was an interesting exercise to divide up those two categories of work tasks and be like, okay, I'm actually good at a lot of stuff, but do I enjoy doing that enough to have that be my entire job? Maybe it could be some percentage of what I do. And that was a good starting point. It's a great day. It's also funny to go back and look at that list because it's changed a lot. Like every few years I feel like I've looked at it as like a joke with myself just to be like, "Oh, it's funny what I thought I didn't like and what I thought I wasn't good at at this specific era in my life." Because you learn a lot and sometimes in my case I learned I liked things that I didn't like at that time because I tried them in a different workplace and they were totally different there. And also what I'm good at and what I'm not good at, that also changes over time as well. But I think it's a good preliminary exercise for yourself to just be like, "What do I like and also what am I good at?" And where's the overlap? Yeah, I think that's a great exercise. That'll get you a lot of helpful answers and perspective on sort of what you do and what you like doing. I'm trying to think what advice I would give here. It's helpful that Zeno is not in school or trying to figure out what to major in. To your points, Jason, about majoring in what you love. Of course I majored in music. I always love music. That worked out. You can choose a thing that you really like doing and then keep doing it. But it didn't work out in the way of, you know, I majored in jazz saxophone performance. And now I'm Michael Brecker over here at Jazz saxophonists and that's how I make a living. It worked out in a much more broad sense and in a way that I use all of the stuff that I learned in school now in what I'm doing and I've found success with that. But it required a kind of different philosophy. And I think that maybe that would be a helpful thing for Zeno to keep in mind. It kind of dovetails with what you're saying, Maddie. The advice I got from this really amazing saxophone, it's named David Leedman. He's like a old school just jazz master at a room to the airport when I was in high school because he was the guest at our jazz festival in Bloomington, Indiana. And we talked about all kinds of stuff. It was pretty cool. And the big piece of advice he gave me was that you got to, you got to just put stuff in your bag. I want to calling this the bag theory. This is something my dad really loved. The bag theory of advice, which is he was talking as a saxophonist, but as a jazz musician also. And also as a writer because David Leedman is a really great writer and he's written some really cool nonfiction books or sort of almost philosophical texts. He's just a very smart writer. And I kind of asked him about that. I said, well, you know, I like to write too. How do you think about yourself as a writer in addition to being a saxophone player? And he said, well, I kind of take all the things that I like to do and that I'm good at. So writing saxophone, he says, you know, maybe you're really good at doubling, you're really good at flute and clarinet. You put it all on your bag. And then over time, your bag kind of fills up with stuff. And as long as you keep thinking of everything as like the kind of totality of the things that you like to do, the things in the bag will start to kind of play off of one another. So Zeno mentions their expensive equine son. And that makes me think, I mean, having a horse and riding horses, if that is in fact, what you're referring to there. But let's just say that it is. It could be anything. That is like a hobby. That's a really cool thing that you're doing. But that's really involved in, it's a whole world. And there are so many different ways you could go in the world of like equestrian interests and horse ownership that might be interesting that could fit in with UX design and some of the other things that you've learned. And I think it can be helpful to just think very broadly about your skills and your interests to do the exercise that Maddie that you're laying out and to put all of those things together. And to see how they might inform one another and to try not to think too narrowly. Because for me, for example, I am not a jazz saxophonist. I use all of that along with the writing that I like to do, that I turned into a job at Kotaku, that then led to podcasting and led to all these different things that like all feet off of one another. And I think that wound up being a kind of a unique skill set, or at least a distinctive one, which is also going to be very helpful, especially in our kind of AI dominated future when it comes to actually making money and having worth it you're doing. So that's just something to think about. Is that like bag theory as a complement to Maddie's approach of listing out the things you like to do and the things that you're good at? I remember you mentioning that bag theory before when we talked. I think that someone asked us once a while back like how to get into games journalism or something like that. And it was kind of a similar thing. Yeah, I talk about it a lot. It's one of my big theories, one of my go-to's. I think, yeah, I think those are good points from both of you. One thing I'll add though in Maddie, you have to tell me if you found this over the course of your career. But one thing I'll add is that I think if you're good at something, you tend to grow on you. You tend to wind up liking it, even if you don't think you will at first when you're kind of sorting out like, what am I like doing? What am I good at? Because if you're good at something, you will be able to find satisfaction in it most likely. I don't know unless it's like you're really good at killing people or something. It's like we're really going to make this up. I found the I-Worn such an excellent assess. Well, hey man, I mean, everyone's got to make their nuts somehow. Yeah, it can. It depends on what it is, but I know where you're going with this. But I just, I think that like that to me is a lot more important if you're trying to build a career and have it be sustainable and hopefully lucrative and tenable over the course of 30 years or whatever is that it has to be something you're good at. Because if you just like it, you are not going to, yeah, it's really just not enough. And you may not find success. This is why it has to be a Venn diagram. Yeah, I think it's, well, no, but I'm saying I don't think it does because I think that like you can, if you pursue something that you're good at, I think you can grow to like it because you will like what it becomes for you and what it gets you and what like, like even if you don't find a ton of personal satisfaction in like being the best spreadsheet maker at the office. I think you can get a lot out of that because the more you do it, you might get compliments. You might like rise up the career ladder. You might get promoted quicker than your peers because you're better at them than doing it. I think you can grow to like that because you're so good at it. So I don't know. I mean, it's also good. Okay, here's a good example of this. There's an NBA player named Nicola Yokic and he is generally considered the best NBA player and the best possible player in the world right now. He also appears to you from all accounts. Hate basketball. He appears to not enjoy it at all, but he's so good at it that he's used it to make hundreds of millions of dollars and like won a championship and it's just like the best player in the world. And it's so funny. There's like footage of him like raising horses and racing horses as hilarious as it is as Quentin and I was in his for this. And he's like so happy. And then there's footage of him winning an NBA title and he like barely cracks a smile. But he has used that as a career to make hundreds of millions of dollars. And I'm sure he gets a lot of satisfaction out of it despite not like maybe not enjoying it quite as much as he enjoys his horse breeding hobby. And now he has so much money that he can race horses and maybe retire in a couple of years to go play with horses all day. So even if you're thinking of it as like if I'm good at something, maybe I can make more money and therefore enjoy my hobbies a lot more. I think that's the most important. Like I think the most important thing when trying to find a career and trying to find a way to get by in the world is what you're good at rather than what you like necessarily. Because what you're good at will, especially with something specialized or something that not everybody is good at, that will take you a lot further and therefore make you a lot more satisfied in the long run than just trying to pursue what you're what you like. There's a lot of crossover. I mean like you said, if you like doing something, you'll probably practice it and get better at it. You know, I mean, that's also true. Yeah. Yeah. And if you're really good at something like you said, a lot of satisfaction just being skilled. Yeah. They overlap. Yeah. I mean, it's all it's all interrelated. I mean, I, I will just say I think it depends on why you don't like the thing. Like if you, that might be worth listing out to if you're like, these are the things about my job that I really dislike. Like dive into why you just like them because it might be, oh, because I really don't like the company culture, people, whatever it is. And that's fixable. Like, that's just one example. So I feel like this is part of the exercise is a little deeper than I make it sound. Like it's, it's like a free writing exercise. Like really think about what you like and dislike about what you're doing now and also what you're good at and bad at and why and do you want to get better at those things. I think I may have even made a list of like things I was neutral on. It's been a while since I opened this document. I've been thinking about it a lot lately for obvious reasons. But regardless, I feel like as long as you just figure out what compromise you're willing to strike because every job is going to include some stuff you don't like. I mean, that goes without saying, right? But I'm going to say it anyway, there's always going to be parts that you don't like no matter what you do. The idea is just to have those not be such a high percentage that you can't freaking stand it. One of the things I'll say is that UX design, I think, is so widely applicable to so many different like careers that I think you could definitely take take around. All right, let's get to the next question. I'll read this one. This is also from Zeno. I'm going to send in two good questions and we wanted to get them up. Dear triple click, I've decided to write a book, a biography about my dad who played drums at Woodstock didn't quite get famous and survived to tell the tale. It'll be about disability, addiction and recovery, toxic masculinity and how an old dude ended up expanding his inner world for the sake of his non-binary kid. That's me. I think it could be compelling and I need to get started before it's too late. My pop is 76. So any advice from three writers and producers of media and how I should start this, where do I begin with research? What are my first steps? Man, so this is a very timely question because I just put out an episode of Strong Songs about my dad who died last year, who was a drummer. These Strong Songs episodes is very special to me. I'm very proud of it and happy with it. It is about his old band that he played within the 60s when he was in school and it was a really emotional and rewarding and intense experience making it and I'm super glad that it exists in his out in the world. Make sure you link it in the show notes for people. I'll link it in the show notes and Zeno, I'd recommend listening to it. It's sad but it could give you some ideas because there's a lot of. similarity with the story that you're telling. For the book writing, I guess I would defer to Jason for just like basic book writing tips, so maybe we can get to that in a second, but a couple of thoughts having just done something like this. One is that if you're into it, I mean, you could make an audio version of this. I only mention it because music is a part of this. And if you have any recordings of your dad, that could be a really interesting way in. It was for me. I don't actually have a lot of recordings of my dad talking or videos, and as it turns out, this recording that he made of his band in the '60s, it's like the longest, contiguous recording of him that I have audio recording that is. It's great though that your dad is still alive, so of course you can still interview him, which is terrific. You're starting this at the right time. I certainly wish I had been able to do that with my dad. So one piece of advice I would give in terms of where to start is if any of his former bandmates are still alive, you could start by talking to them. I spoke with two guys from my dad's band who reached out after he died and kind of became the germ of this. I always knew I wanted to make an episode about him, but when I heard from them, I was like, oh man, these guys are still alive, they're still around, they're engaged, they were friends with my dad, his whole life, and they played in this band with him. So I just want to talk to them right now. And I got on Zoom with them and recorded it, and we had this great conversation. And then they of course are in the episode that I made. And I think talking to his band might give you some good stuff to work with from the start. If you're listening to any recordings of him, you're talking to them, you're kind of getting this picture outside of talking to him because he's your dad. And when you talk to him, that's going to be a very familiar dynamic. And he's someone that you've just been talking with your whole life and have this whole rapport with. When you talk to them, you'll get a perspective on him that you don't always get. So it almost suggests talking to them separately from him. And then maybe talk to him and then maybe talk to them altogether. But I think that that thinking of it that way and maybe starting with them would be a good place to start. So that's just some broad thoughts having just done something very similar to this. Yeah, I can see to the book rating aspect of it. So two kind of big topics I would hit. One is first of all, try to figure out how you want to publish this. Do you want to have this be a traditionally published book ideally and have it be published by a publisher and put in booksters and stuff? Or do you want to self publish it? If you want to self publish it, there's really no barriers for doing that. You just write it and then you go through a service like through Amazon creates or something and then you publish it. If you want to traditionally publish, you need to go through a lot of hoops and you need to find an agent and talk to them about whether this is a viable memory or autobiography or however you want to frame it in the market and figure out how to outline it and so on and so forth. And then the next step I would take once you kind of answer that question is when you're actually trying to figure out where to start with research and writing it, is I would try to figure out what are the questions that I want to answer in this book. And then who are the people I go talk to to answer those questions? And your dad's old bandmates are a perfect starting point for that, but also if you want to dive into disability and addiction and recovery, maybe you want to talk to experts surrounding those. Maybe you want to answer some questions about how your dad's personal experience intersected with other woodstock musicians or other musicians who maybe made it to a certain level of success but didn't take it the next level. Maybe you want to find other people like that. So that's how you can kind of start branching out in terms of the researching and writing stage. I'd also recommend doing a lot of research before you even start thinking about writing because the research can so drastically change the way you want to tell this story. Yeah, like reading other books probably, right? Like other books about either woodstock musicians or other people who played during this time period would even tell you, especially if you don't like them, you can feel like, well, this is how I want to structure my book. That can be very instructive. Yeah, and this kind of story where it's not going to be a story about Jimmy Hendrix, someone super famous who played it with stock. So it's not inherently got that hook. But instead, it's about a normal person who just, you know, almost made it like you described. And yeah, I would say, I guess one last thought is that because this is about your dad, because this is something that you'll always have, even if this doesn't become anything, if you start on it, or you don't find a publisher for it, doing the work is so good, I'm really just glad to hear that you're doing this. And so I just want to really encourage you to follow through and do it. You know, I say this with the full weight of someone whose dad died unexpectedly. And who thought I would be able to talk to him at some point. And then now I can't. And I think that just once your parents are in their 70s, I know it's like hard to think about, but there will come a day when you can't talk to them anymore. And so like just doing this, talking to him, writing the book, doing the work, like it'll feel so good, and you'll be so glad that you did it. So I just want to throw that out there, like just as an end unto itself, this is a terrific thing that you're thinking about doing. And I really hope that you do it. OK, next question, Kirk, you want to read this next one? Yes, this question comes from Marcus who writes, hey, Jason Kirk and Maddie, there's a lot of debate about generative AI and game development right now, particularly the use of AI to create art, audio, and copy by which Marcus means writing scripts. It seems that there's less controversy when it comes to using AI to write source code. Lacey, lately I've seen this in some of the big game jams, where AI-generated art is forbidden, but AI code is supported. That's very interesting, Marcus. Marcus concludes, where do you think the line is when it comes to using AI and game development? And why do you think people are more concerned about some applications of AI than others? PS, have you thought about organizing a triple-click game jam? I think-- Let's do the PS first. We haven't, but that would probably be cool. I think we could just say that. Probably be neat. Yeah, we hadn't thought about that. Yeah, I think there's a-- in our discord, I think there's a game dev chat channel. So if people wanted to organize-- I don't know if the three of us are going to be doing that in time soon-- but if people wanted to organize something like there, that would be a good place. As far as this question, I do think it's worth noting here that the big difference between AI generated, art and audio, and copy versus source code, is that source code is not visible to the player. And there's a big difference between stuff that is seen by the player and stuff that isn't. And oftentimes, it's noticeable when it's seen by the player. This is all very relevant because I just played it through the campaign of this game called Stormgate, which is a successor to Starcraft 2, made by a bunch of ex-blizzard people. And they used AI for these kind of portrait animations, making the kind of that little portrait that you see before missions, making it move around. They used AI to do that. And it is so uncanny that it's a little off-putting when you watch it. It has that AI look. It feels like something is off when you're watching it. And I asked Tim Morton, who's the producer of that game, co-founder of the studio. He said that basically it was a choice between using AI or not having it all. And so they wound up choosing AI. But it is interesting to see that. And thinking of that on a broader scale, it would certainly be noticeable and off-putting from a player's point of view. Whereas if AI is used to write code, the player probably isn't even going to notice it. So that to me seems like the biggest difference from a player point of view. Yeah. I'm thinking of a few differences. I mean, also the AI art, AI music-- and when I say AI, I mean gender and the AI-- is all more clearly or at least more-- like people are more familiar with the fact that those models are using stolen art. And so there's the fact that when you're looking at a piece of a generative AI art, it is likely that you're looking at art that was created via someone else's art that was taken without permission or music or writing. And it's interesting partly because I don't know how like co-pilot or code writing AI works. You know, a lot of these AI models, though, were trained on just these vast amounts of data. And a lot of it was taken without permission, even if it's just writing code. So I don't fully know how that works. But maybe that actually illustrates the point that I don't know how that works. So writing code, I'm like, sure, I don't know. But when I see "Stable Division Art" or something, and it's just very clearly taken from something else, or when I hear God, when I hear that "Suno Music," where they're just fully reverse engineered a "Maria Carey" song or whatever. Like, it's just very evident to me that there's been this transgression, and I don't like that. So maybe that's part of it. Well, let me speak to that for a second. I think that's a good point. And actually, you can take that a little bit further. Not only is-- so when you're using Genai, Ida, make art or music, you are straight up stealing from other people because an AI cannot create art or music on its own. It is physically incapable of doing that as a computer program. So if you tell AI, draw a person. It is taking ideas from all over the internet, all over whatever its data set is, and using that to channel some sort of like person-shaped thing, or same as music. You say, create a song. And it is taking things from the internet and using that to create a song. Whereas if you use an AI to say, hey, we have a one and one and need them to make two. It is just following a rule set for that and saying one plus one equals two. And that is a little bit more equivalent or from a code perspective. If you want AI to say, hey, I have person this little sprite here that needs to get over there, and it is writing the code for that, it can do that by just following the rules of C++ or Python or whatever, and writing a code based on those rules without having to take from any human creation. Because all I need is the rules of the programming language to be able to do that. So we're talking about art versus kind of like-- But an interesting difference. So like ChatchyBT does all of these things, for example. And it was trained on data taken without permission. Oh, yeah. But at the same time, it can also do those basic calculations. So the question is sort of, well, you're using this one tool. that is definitely cross ethical boundaries that a lot of people aren't happy with it. I certainly am not. And like you're using it to do things that don't obviously demonstrate that transgression. And I think that's kind of where some of what Marcus is asking about is like, "So people seem upset about this one type of AI, art, or music, but they don't get as upset about this other thing, or was it a game jam, where they made a rule. You can't use it for this, but you can use it for this, which is like a kind of interesting and tension and something that people are trying to reconcile at the moment." Well, let me kind of frame it in my own, in terms of my own work, right? Like I don't really use AI very much. I've been playing around a little bit with Chatch, ABC recently to see what it could do for me. I haven't found it super useful, but I've thought of a couple ways where maybe it could be useful. And so here's kind of the two extreme examples. One is if I told AI, write a chapter of a book for me. I don't think anyone would be pleased with that. I think no, everyone would boycott me, people would never read the book. It would just be a disaster. And it would come out like garbage. But if I said to AI, hey, make a spreadsheet out of this research that I have accumulated or make a spreadsheet out of the people I have reached out to so far, so I can easily reference all of the sources that I've tracked down, all the people I've interviewed for this story or for this book. Would anyone care if I did that? Like that is a functional tool that is essentially-- Would anyone know if you did that? I think it's related questions. Well, but even, let's say they didn't know. Let's say they didn't know. Would anyone care if I used AI as like a time-saving version of Excel or if I used AI to like take my data and organize, take my notes for a research project and like put them in chronological order or something like that. If that was possible, I don't know if that's how realistic that is. But as a tool for efficiency or a better example, actually, I do use AI for this. We have a Bloomberg tool that takes audio files and then uses LLMs to transcribe them into text files. And they're pretty good. I usually listen to the audio while I'm reading over it just to make sure it hasn't made any typos or stuff. But it's not making things up. It's just like straight up transcribing. That's a perfect example of AI being very useful for our work in terms of efficiency. And that, I mean, maybe in its dataset, it's still stealing from people, but it's not creating things. And I think the difference between AI being used as a tool and used to create things is a pretty profound difference. In programming, it's a little bit more squishy because there's a lot of programming that gets, especially when it gets more advanced or you could approach things in a lot of different ways. And so it's not like if you were trying to get from point A to point B, a lot of times in programming, you could do that in like a million different possible routes. So AI having to pick one, it might not go well for you guys. So it gets a little more complicated in there. And so I'm not saying that my examples are a good one-to-one for programming necessarily. But I do think that there are some significant ethical differences between using AI to make you more productive, make you more efficient in a non-creative way versus doing it in a creative way, doing it in artistic way. Yeah. I mean, I think one of the problems I have with AI is that it talks to me like it's pretended to be a person. But that's not really what the question's about. I'm super agree with that though for what it's like. I'm really against that. When it is like great idea, let me do that. I honestly do that. Definitely do that. An actual ethical issue. But regardless, to get to the coding part, I read a pretty good-- I mean, I can't call it an article because it's a compilation of other people's essays essentially. But Brian Merchant, who writes Blood in the Machine, it's a blog. It's an AI skeptic blog just to like mention his-- Also a good buck Blood in the Machine. Yes, also a book of his. He was a recently featured on Hard Fork as an AI skeptic. If people are familiar with that podcast and it's politics, they kind of know Brian. And I know him as one of their skeptics. And they featured him online. He was on Triple Click. That's right. Yes. So people might remember Casey from when he was on our show. There's a lot of overlap in that world. So anyway, Brian Merchant did a story. He's a journalist. And he did a story whereby a lot of tech workers who use AI to code have just submitted testimonials about how that's going for their jobs. And a lot of testimonials were pretty concerning to me. I admittedly, I'm not an expert in this. So this is truly just me reading these testimonials from a self-described AI skeptic and forming my own conclusions. And-- but they did worry me because some of them were from people who were saying that the AI written code was pretty poorly done. And yet they were being pressured to code a whole lot faster than they used to be because their bosses are saying, well, this is going to make it work a lot faster. So now your deadlines are way shorter. And we're expecting everybody to operate in this way now. And folks don't have time to edit the code. And that concerns me. I-- so I think it is maybe worth reading some of the testimonials if you're somebody listening and you're curious about how that's going in some of the areas of the tech sector where people are trying to implement AI. I do think that it's being implemented as a cost-cutting measure pretty often. And sometimes-- Oh, I mean, as a personnel replacing measure, like a huge cost-cutting measure in that way. So I'm not worried about it in the context of something like a game jam, where it's being used to write code for a character to walk across the screen or whatever. That's not really what I'm talking about here. But I do worry about it becoming a huge force in game dev in the same way that I worry about it becoming a huge force in any technology whereby it could result in sloppy code because human beings still actually need to work on some of these things to make them good. There's also the-- there's a different way of using AI that I think exists outside of how people usually think of this question where, you know, in Marcus' framing, it's typically-- we're thinking of someone having an AI do art, you know, create art or write the script for the game where also, you can just talk to ChatchyPT and have it give you advice or tell you how to do something in some application you're using. Like, it can just be a kind of a help guide or a little helper as you're working. And I would imagine that a lot of people have used it. I've certainly experimented with that. And it can be very helpful. And I think if you're using a lot of different technical tools, it's basically-- it's over there-- it's like the most environmentally costly FAQ. It's like this thing that is-- I mean, obviously, it's more useful than an FAQ. It's giving you the answers really quickly. But I think that is an invisible use of AI that I would just guess is a lot more prevalent than people think because a lot of people don't talk about it because it's still very controversial and because, as we've seen, when a video game comes out and is on Steam, this happened with the altars, if you remember that game. It was revealed that that game had some AI art in it that wasn't initially revealed when it came out. And there was a big controversy. People got super mad. I think they got some review bombing. Is it play-solder, play-solder, text, or something? Yeah, it was pretty minor, but it was generative AI. And it hadn't been-- there was no transparency around it when it first came out, which now I believe on Steam games with AI assets that is disclosed in somewhere on the store page. So they added it. So anyways, point B-- it's a very controversial thing. And I get the feeling that as AI just works its way into everything, that there are a lot of people out there who are just using it as this kind of helper that isn't doing the work for you, but it's just there as you're doing the work. And then Maddie, as you say, as that makes people more productive and working-- they're able to do more. We're seeing this very negative side effect. We're from the top. There's then a demand for more work. And of course, the future where AI does everything and we can all just chill is totally not currently with where the trajectory is. So we said it's not happening. It's going the other way, where it's like, oh, well, now it can do so much more. So you need to do so much more. And so every job is just going to become even more demanding. And that is a very negative outcome considering the possibilities. Yeah, just having the experience of typed in some question on chat.gpt for research purposes and seeing the number of mistakes it makes and things it totally makes up, it does seem very problematic when you're trying to use it to write good, efficient code that will create a function for you. So yeah, it's hard to imagine working at scale. It's also telling, I think, and it's interesting. It makes me a little more optimistic about the future that there's always this promise that these alums are getting so much better. Gen/AI is improving so much more every day. But the hallucination problem still has not gone away and is still massive and still just like, they're unable to fix that despite the fact that these tools are getting better and more powerful and what you ask them to do, they're still just making things up constantly, which I say it makes me optimistic because it makes me feel like it's never actually going to buy the replace a lot of these jobs even if companies wanted to or trying to force it down. People's threats eventually they will get to the point when they realize, oh, OK, this is not actually a viable replacement for most jobs. But yeah, there are a lot of fields where I think people are being encouraged to use AI and experiment with it, including my company. We have AI tools that we're encouraged to experiment with. And just like, they're very limited in how they can help. Like I mentioned before, I found a couple of places where they can create things that are helpful for me, but it's very limited. And I think with code, it's going to turn out to be pretty-- the scope is going to turn out to be pretty narrow and what they can actually do in terms of replacing workers. That said, I mean, I think that like, to get at Marcus's original question, I think that ultimately people are going to be judging these games more based on the front end, what they can see and what they can feel and what they can read than what's on the back end. And so it's a lot easier to get away with doing back end stuff using AI than it is with front end stuff. I think concept art is something that a lot of-- you're gonna see a lot of AI replacing concept artists. And, uh, that ethics of that are a different question than the practical viability of that But that seems like an area that that is is if it's not already it's certainly Or like placeholder art for presentations like PowerPoint decks that will never be seen by the world But are used a lot internally a game companies that sort of thing is again like I can see a lot of companies using a high for that in an attempt to save time and Because it's on the back end and players will never see it even that placeholder stuff I mean a lot of placeholder stuff like is meant to never been seen by players, but it will But yeah, I mean, I think people in general will just be more concerned about what they can see than what they can Okay, let's take a break and then we'll come back with one more thing. Thanks to everyone who sent in questions. Yeah, thanks Hello, I'm John Lutrubbots, and I would love for you to give my podcast, "Sounty with John Lutrubbots a try" It's basically a parody of every type of podcast imaginable made up with loads of brilliant comedians It was named the best scripted sketch show by the BBC audio drama awards was a finalist for best comedy podcast at the New York radio festival And it has just been nominated for best comedy at the British podcast awards Surely if there are three things you can trust that the BBC New York and Britain So give "Sounty with John Lutrubbots a go today" available from Maximum Fun in all the best podcast apps Hi, I'm Alexis and I'm Ella and we're the host of Comfort Creatures We could spend the next 28 seconds telling you why you should listen But instead his what our listeners have said about our show because really they do know best the show is filled with stories and poems and Science and friendship and laughter and tears sometimes But tears are from your heart being so filled up with love a cozy show about enthusiasm for animals of all kinds Real and unreal if you greet the dog before the person walking them or wander around the party looking for the host cat This podcast is for you so come for the comfort and stay for Alexis's wild story about waking up to her cat Giving birth on top of her. So if that sounds like your cup of tea or coffee Ella We're not all brits. Join us every Thursday at MaximumFun.org And we are back Kirk Maddie at his time for one more thing Maddie start us off Well, I'm reading a book that I think is pretty good It's by this woman named Sophie Lewis and She has been doing the rounds advertising her book and I saw a video of her talking about it and I was thoroughly charmed And I was like I want to check out this book. It's called enemy feminism's and in the clip She was talking about turfs who are trans exclusionary radical feminists people probably know JK Rowling is one And she was just kind of talking about how as feminists like we can't just ignore that these people like you know say their feminists and She talks at the very beginning of the book and in a lot of clips about the book about how you know if you're a feminist you're like oh Well, those are their people. They're not real feminists Not like me like the no true Scotsman theory and her ethos in the book is essentially like no I don't think we can say that and there's also like a really strong history of white supremacist feminism Especially in the suffragett movement we're going way back and that's how the book begins I'm only on chapter three, but I'm really digging it So I feel comfortable recommending it and I've learned a lot It's been many years since I was in college and there's a lot of just historical stuff in here That's new and has been discovered since I was reading anything about this sort of thing And I'll share a fun fact just as sort of like a little Recommendation for the book that I had didn't know because this is recent scholarship So you two are probably familiar with sojourner truths anti-women speech I learned about it in middle school. I think most people learn about it in middle school I did not know until I read this book because this is pretty recent scholarship that She not only never said that Truth didn't have that accent at all. She didn't have a southern accent. She didn't say ain't She didn't speak that way and that entire speech was written by a white lady Later on who was kind of transcribing it from memory, but historians think probably she did that because She thought the speech would be more marketable that way and more easily understood as like a strengthening of Sojourner Truth's message and it's unclear whether or sojourner truth knew that and was okay with it But regardless. I just thought that was really interesting and was kind of speaking to some of the early kind of suffragette movements and women's movements in the books whereby White women were very much at the foreground of those movements and really simplified the messages of the women of color that were Just sidelined obviously for many years didn't get the vote until way way way later in our country's history So anyway, it's an interesting book and it's written in a very conversational tone It's not like a big academic text that's gonna overwhelm you. It's it's funny. It's got jokes And it's also got some cool historical tidbits That includes stuff like that that was discovered in like the past 10 years about history We think we all know so anyway. It's called enemy feminism's this was really hard for me to google I forgot the name of the book and That name that's a great name enemy feminism's just fun. It's very hard to say I was googling like bad feminism Evil feminism. It was not coming up eventually. I just read an article where somebody else mentioned the book And I was like thank god. I can find this book again. So yeah, that's what it's called enemy feminism's nice Uh Kirk what's your other thing? My one more thing is another Brandon Sanderson a door stopper This is a book called the words of radiance that I am nearing the end of And is the second book in his storm light archive which I believe is his best known and most celebrated Series this is a epic fantasy series. They are five Books in my phone thinks I'm talking to it because I was talking about a S E R I E S when I said my god miss heard this is like technology is great It was years ago your lexick kept going off in the middle of our show you kept like I don't know if it was because he's So anyways, this is a um a sanderson fantasy world. He's five books in it's gonna be ten books long each book is really worth it. It's fantastic He is yeah, he is a very prolific writer I've talked about him in the past that I've sort of been reading his stuff over the past. I don't know year and change And actually I'll mention up top speaking of him since I know a lot of our listeners really like him One of our listeners named Graham reached out to see if I would go on his Brandon Sanderson podcast Just called a green of sanderson. Oh my god. They're reading all those sanderson's books And I went on to talk about the emperor's soul which is a short story of his that I read just for this podcast That's very good or I guess a novella more than a short story Though a sanderson novella can be still quite long because he's very he can really write I really liked the emperor's soul so I'll just shout that out I'll put we'll put a link for it in the show notes since it's a branded sanderson podcast And and if you want to hear people talking about Brandon Sanderson go check it out So words of radiance book two of the stormlight archives the first one is called the Way of Kings I read that as well and I thought it was pretty good But I wasn't crazy about it just because it's very slow paced There's one character who is very exciting and another character who not a lot was happening with her and I was like man Every time we're reading about her I want to be reading about the other guy And that's never a great feeling in one of these books. It's like in some of the um Song of ice and fire books where you're reading about Tyrion and you're so into it And then they cut to like son or something you're like oh man. I just can we go back to Tyrion? It's that it's a familiar feeling so that was happening in that book And it just really takes its time that first book. It's establishing though this incredibly complex and large world that he's built for this series Um, but I was I really liked it in the end. I mean it's he he knows how to write a book. That's just a page turner But it wasn't until words of radiance the second book that I was really like okay, man. This rules words of radiance is awesome and very much worth Reading way of kings so that you can fully enjoy words of radiance it kicks ass Um, I'm near the end of it and have just been super into it Uh, I'll explain a little about this world. So sanderson's thing is or his great skill is that he can imagine these wonderfully complex worlds and magic systems and really interesting Just kind of fictional mechanisms, I guess that he he builds these wonderful contraptions that he then puts his stories through And I actually talked about this on that uh sanderson podcast that he is he is smart about borrowing narrative structures that are familiar And then putting them into these mechanisms that he's built mistborn for example The first mistborn book really feels like the matrix at times it has all of these echoes of the matrix But I think that's actually a great strength because he's introducing this really complicated magic system and all this other stuff this big world with all these proper nouns He is a proper noun freak chase and he just there everywhere He's book opens with like four maps. I know. I know. I know. I've tried to read some of this like said residue It's a lot and when you start. Can I just stop you for one second um, yeah The matrix framework is also hero's journey, which is like the ultimate justive Campbell like the monolith this idea that is gone from everything the Star Wars to like yes And to be clear yes yes yes yes, but I'm when I say that it echoes the matrix I don't mean that it's just the hero's journey I mean that it is like the setup of the world this like omnipresent unstoppable entity overseeing everything There are these guards in mistborn who who are like exactly agents and the whole time all of the mistwalkers are like She's learning her powers and it's like you never fight one of those guys like they will just destroy you because they're so powerful And then there's like the scene at the end where like one mistwalker like stops and like and it's like this fight, like it really feels like the Matrix in that way. - Got it. - Like these narrative beats that match the Matrix. But that's fine, 'cause like the Matrix rocks and Mistborn also rocks. What I would say about Mistborn to compare it a little bit to Words of Radiance is that Mistborn blows it all out in the first book. The first Mistborn is great, and I believe that he did not intend to make it into a trilogy. And then he had more ideas and he kept going. And it kind of feels that way. So the second to Mistborn books, which I read, they're fine. They have their moments, but it really feels like kind of actually like the next two Matrix movies. - So many things where you're like-- - I have more ideas. - The first one was really awesome. And like, I don't know, I mean, I'm fine with being with these characters some more, but this is kind of undermining a little bit of what I liked about the first one. So the Stormlight Archive does not have that problem. And then that led to the fact that the first book felt like a lot of setup, where I was like, "Geez, we are really taking our time with some of this stuff." This is a world where it's not like Mistborn, where it's like a horrible ruler and everything is kind of intense. It's actually just a functioning kingdom. There's a lot going on, but it's like, I shouldn't say kingdom, it's a functioning world. I mean, there are many, many kingdoms and you know, all kinds of different political and different wars going on everywhere. And it follows four or five maybe main characters and a huge variety of side characters. He does this thing where in between acts, he'll just cut to three characters you've never heard of before, who are living in kingdoms you've never been to before, with like different kinds of magic and different histories. And like, you're just thrown into the deep end for one chapter. And then it just goes to another one. And there are these kind of interludes in between the big sections of the book. It's really cool. And it gives you this sense of like, wow, this guy really thought through this unbelievably vast fantasy world. But the broad story is there are kind of these three or four main characters. There's Calladon who begins as a slave. He's like a great warrior who is then enslaved as punishment or just kind of through this horrible series of events that you learn over the course of the first book. And he, it's very much gladiator, I would say, if we're talking about the narrative beats that are borrowed in way of kings. His is the story of gladiator of the great warrior who is cast down and then through sheer like the power of his honor and his abilities and some magic that is also on his side. He kind of works his way back up and like makes it out, you know, and becomes a hero again. And that's the most familiar story. And there's also this young woman named Shalat, or at least I think that's her name is pronounced. And in way of kings her story was really kind of, it just takes its time. It's very slow. She's like going to be a scholar. She's studying a bunch of stuff. It's fine, but she's like very timid and kind of, you know, always gets embarrassed and doesn't like standing up to people. And I was like, man, I don't know. This is all just kind of not my thing. So words of radiance is her book. And by that I mean words of radiance is there are flashbacks and they tell her story, her whole story, where way of kings was call it in book. So this is very focused on her. And suddenly now she has something to do. And because of the events of way of kings, words of radiance brings everyone together. So now suddenly all your main characters in the first book are finally in scenes together. And like, shit is going down. And I just got to say all that build up really makes it satisfying when stuff really starts to go down in this book. And I've just been having a blast with it. I mean, I could go on and on and on. It's like part mecha anime. These guys wear these suits of armor, the shard plate that's kind of like a mech. So it has overlaps with like some story beats from mecha. They like summon these cool sores. There's this whole mystery history of the world. There's like spirits flying around. There's really complex magic. There are like a variety of other species that are just these super interesting to communicate with rhythms and like with music. It's far more ideas than he's had than any of his books that I've read. There isn't like one central idea. There are just so many. And really it's just it's very fun and very good. I'm really impressed with it. It's the most I've liked anything that he's read. It's his best imagined world. And he's very good at this stuff. So I've there aren't any of his books that I've really read and been like, "Ah, I just didn't like that at all." Like they're always pretty enjoyable in the end. But this one I would say is like very much worth the investment. And I can see why it's the one that's the number one bestseller. It's the one that's the biggest deal. Because it really gets cookin' by the second book. So that's a big endorsement of words of radiance. I'm gonna keep these ones going, but it's quite a fun book. All right. My one more thing is also a fantasy book, but this needs no caveats because this might be the most approachable accessible. And also some of the most brilliant fantasy books that I've ever read. This is a book called "Six of Crows" by Lieberdugo. And I also read it's sequel, "Crickly Kingdom," the two are part of a duology. And if that sounds familiar, it's because Kirk recommended it a couple of years ago and said that I would really like it. Said both of us really like it, but especially I would. Yeah, I got to read it. I really enjoyed "Lock of Lemura," which is a very similar style of book. And so I finally read these books and they are phenomenal. They are incredible. They are. They need. They like. Unlike the Brandon Sanderson stuff, you don't need a caveat of like, "Oh, it's got a slow start. Oh, it's a little bit meandering." "Oh, too many proper nouns." There are a lot of proper nouns. There are a lot of better. The characterization is so good from the outset that you don't bounce off of it, or at least I didn't. And I bounce off proper nouns, but it just grabs you. And these books are. These books are. assoundingly good. Also, books where it alternates point of view characters, but they're all so good that you never are like, "Oh man, what are these?" "Oh no, we're up to the boring character now." Because it does. Lieberdugo does the remarkable feat in these books of creating six main characters that are all incredibly fast. And incredibly fascinating and entertaining and have their own flaws and distinct characteristics and are all very lovable. The core of this story is that it revolves around this group of thieves, or the group of outcasts, I suppose, criminals who are on this impossible heist that they have to perform. And then things go awry from there. The first book actually follows a lot of the same beats as Ocean's Elevate, but then things get out of control. And then the second book continues that story. I won't really say much about what happens. And it's incredible. The characterization is top-notch, and that's really the reason these books is because the characters are so good, especially Kaz. Brecker, the kind of the leader of the gang who is really a fascinating character in so many ways. I can't recommend these books enough. Also hilariously, they're characterized as young adult books in the bookstore, which is funny because they do not feel like young adult books. Either that or young adult books that can be really mature. It's funny. I just read Ninth House, which is Bill this, her first adult book. And it is quite adult. There's a lot of sex and sexual violence and stuff in that book. It is a level beyond anything in the cruise duology, but the cruise duology is pretty horny and pretty violent. The romance in the cruise duology is pretty light. It's pretty tame stuff. There's no graphic sex or anything like that. It is definitely violent. There's definitely blood and death and stuff. It doesn't feel like I have. But I don't know. I haven't read YA books in a long time. I guess except for the case. But anyway, point being, these are incredible. I recommend the wholeheartedly. I talked about Ninth House a couple months ago, and that's what kind of got me on this kick of Reading Leabardugo. These two books are amazing. I'm probably going to read the rest of her books, even though I know that there's the shadow and bone trilogy was came before this, which I know is not as good as these. And then she has another seven books that are more recent about one of the characters in the Six of Crows books that I'm looking forward to reading as well. But man, these two stand out really. Some of the best fantasy that you'll read. Really incredible stuff. Yeah, I've mentioned this before, but the shadow and bone books get better as they go, which is just an interesting thing about them. They're certainly not bad. They're just not as irresistible as the cruise duology. And man, the main thing about Six of Crows, I'm so glad that she read it. The thing that I take out of that book now, and I think back on it, is that the heist itself rules and the way that it plays out and like the climax of that book is so awesome. And that was my, I just remember reading it. And you never know with the heist if it's going to be maybe deliberately misdirected or anticlimactic, or it's all going to go off the rails and we're just going to get character beats. The way they get through it is just incredibly awesome. So that is like, that is a really cool thing about the book, because it's very satisfying in the end. There are two things that Libra Dugu is phenomenal at that she is like some of the best, one of the best to do it at. One is pacing. The pacing of these books is just astounding. It is like the perfect balance of like action, like quiet moment action. And Ninth House was like phenomenally paced as well. Her pacing, her instincts for pacing are just top, top tier. And the other thing she's really good at is creating these scenarios that subvert themselves. And it turns out that this plan that seemed like a failure is actually what Kaz Brecker wanted to happen all along. And then also the Xanatos Gambit. And then also also subverting that again and being like, oh, actually the bad guys unsmarted him this time. And so you never really know once a plan unfolds, you never really know if things are going awry because Kaz wanted it to be or things are going awry and actually Kaz is unhappy about this turn of events. Really, really good books. Highly highly recommend them start with six of crows by Libra Dugu and then get into I mean once you finish that of course you'll go pick up quick. You're just gonna read the book and you're gonna go. Yeah, Maddie you would love these books there. I got her. They're super good. Really amazing. - Yes, and characters. All right, that was it for this week's episode. Thanks again to everyone who sent in questions and Kirk Maddie. Oh, we won't see you next week 'cause we're off next week. - Oh, that's true. - Yes, we'll be off next week. - So you'll get a bonus, we'll probably throw in a bonus at the end of the year. - Yeah, that'll be something. - And then we'll be back the week after her that. - Yeah, well, I will see both of you then. - Bye. (upbeat music) - Triple Click is produced by Jason Shreyer, Maddie Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix the show and also wrote our theme music. Our show art is by Tom DJ. Some of the games and products we talked about on this episode may have been sent to us for free for review consideration. You can find a link to our ethics policy in the show notes. Triple Click is a proud member of the Maximum Fun Podcast Network. And if you like our show, we hope you'll consider supporting us by becoming a member at MaximumFun.org/join. Find us on Twitter at TripleClickPod, send email at [email protected] and find a link to our discord in the show notes. Thanks for listening. See you next time. (upbeat music) Maximum Fun, a worker-owned network of artist-owned shows supported directly by you.