Where Do Democrats Go From Here on Israel & Palestine? (Live From Crooked Con)

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Discover the full collection at Lenox.com slash Spice Village. I'm Tommy Vitor. And this is CrookedCon, live from newly liberated Washington, D.C. Beautiful to see you all. Ever since October 7th, the Democratic Party has been embroiled in a debate about Gaza and U.S. policy towards Israel. And these fights consumed the Biden administration. Many believe they contributed to Kamala Harris's loss in 2024. And debates over Israel were obviously a huge part of the Michigan story. And I'm Tommy Vitor. And I'm Tommy Vitor. And I'm Tommy Vitor. part of the Michigan Senate race that was ultimately won by Senator-elect Abdul El-Sayed. And now the question becomes, what, if anything, is going to change? How is the Democratic Party going to evolve or not on these issues as we head into the 2028 presidential primary? And so over the next 45 minutes or so, my goal, our goal, is to try to hash out some of these debates. But the goal is to talk about this stuff in a way that exposes real differences, but does so in good faith from people with, because I know them both, you know, good hearts and are coming from the right place. So it's hard to flip cards when you have one hand. My guests today are Joel Rubin and Tara Kabash. Joel worked at the State Department during the Obama administration. He was the founding director, political director of J Street, and was Jewish. He was the outreach director for Bernie Sanders' 2020 presidential campaign. Tarek was the first political appointee to resign from the Biden administration over Gaza policy and is now the co-founder and director of a new policy and organization dedicated to forging a new U.S. policy towards Israel and Palestine. Thank you both for being here. Seriously. Thanks, Tommy. Nothing more fun, no lighter topic than, just, you know, riffing on Israel-Palestine in front of a live audience. So let's start with the midterms, in particular, the Michigan Senate race, where U.S. policy towards Israel was front and center, Gaza was front and center, AIPAC spending, and concerns about anti-Semitism were a huge part of that campaign. Abdul won that race, but there is evidence that he ran nearly 15 points behind the Democratic gubernatorial candidate, Jocelyn Benson, in some of the more heavily Jewish communities. Tarek, what does Abdul's victory tell us about how, you know, the politics of this issue have shifted? I mean, let's just be really clear about what happened in Michigan. This election was one of the most vile, racist campaigns from the right that we have seen in modern electoral politics. We're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars being spent against a brown, Arab, Muslim candidate, who is now going to be Michigan's senator-elect, by the way, labeling him as un-American, as a terrorist, attacking his family in extremely destructive ways, trying to weaponize people's fears in their own communities about their safety. And despite that, despite the amount of spending and hate and vitriol, that we saw from the president, from the candidate he was running against, Mike Rodgers, Abdul was able to resoundingly defeat that hate and show Americans, not just in Michigan, but around the country, that people, not just Democrats, but voters of all political backgrounds, reject that hate. He was able to win by seven points. And by the way, I think the fears that people said, like, "Are Jewish Democrats feeling unsafe because of Abdul?" Well, the exit polls and the numbers show that he still was able to turn out 60% of Jewish voters in Michigan, which, if you compare that to 2024, I believe, is less than a point and a half less than what Alyssa Slotkin, who was just here on this stage, a Jewish senator, was able to turn out. So I think that what we have overwhelmingly seen is that there is a narrative that is being pushed by people to try and weaponize communities against each other. And I think Democrats and Americans writ large have rejected that narrative. And they believe that we can invest in care for our communities and recognize that there is fear and there is hate, but we can overcome that. And that's exactly what Michigan did. Joel, same question to you. I mean, what was your take on the Michigan Senate race and how concerned are you about Jewish Americans feeling unwelcome in the Democratic Party? Yeah, and Tommy, first of all, thank you to Crooked Con and to Tarek for being co-panelists with me. And thank you, everyone, for being here at this panel. You know, this is something that I think for Tarek and I is both professional and personal. And for many of us in the room, it probably is as well. So I'm really grateful to have the chance to speak with you and speak here about this. You know, look, Jewish Americans are definitely beleaguered, stressed out. It's not a secret. I think in Michigan in particular, the Michigan Jewish community really had extraordinarily mixed feelings. We could see it with Dana Nessel, for example, the attorney general who basically said, "Vote for Abdul and don't worry about Jewish safety or security. Take care of the bigger issue, which is American democracy." And that's a very mixed message for the Jewish community to hear. You know, and I do think also just one data point. Alyssa, I think, got 78% of the Jewish community. She got a Jewish vote. And Abdul got about 60%, 61%. So there was a drop off. Jocelyn Benson got about 93,000 more votes than Abdul. But all that said, look, the message I want to make sure we're conveying here is that we're all on the same side on this. That we're in this boat together. That we won on Tuesday because everybody was in the room. And what we have are deep challenges. But we also have allyship. And for the Jewish community, after October 7th in particular, and in Michigan, I'll point to that. I think the questions are, do we have allyship? You know, do we have friends here in the United States with whom we've marched and organized for decades? My family got here 120 years ago, right? So I'm fifth generation Pittsburgh from Squirrel Hill originally. Yeah, there we go. Go Steelers. And, you know, in my neighborhood, the Tree of Life Synagogue, I grew up going to. My three daughters were baby names at that synagogue. And my parents were there for Shabbat services the night before the massacre. And we saw our allies come together. We have to find a way to rekindle that. We have to find a way to reject the Islamophobia that came at Abdul. Even though there are real legitimate policy differences. One thing that we cannot countenance is hating people because of who they are and what they believe. I want to say that again. One thing we cannot countenance is hating people for who they are and what they believe. So I hope as we go forward. The mission Jewish community is going to take a deep breath. Like all of us in the Jewish community around the country. And think, okay, now what do we do? How do we engage? How do we get constructive? How do we tell them that we have concerns? And I think to me that was the beauty in a sense. Even though it was ugly for the last several months of the fighting. Is that I do think we saw people hearing the Jewish community's agony. I think that this is important. The Palestinian American community's agony needs to be heard. It needs to be heard as well. It's not either or. We're all Americans. And so my hope is that as we go forward. We continue to engage each other. Knowing that we're all swimming in the same direction. Well said. So let's talk about some of the big policy fights that are going to be ahead. That I think are really going to play out in the 2028 presidential primary. There is going to be a big debate over U.S. assistance and weapons sales to Israel. On election day. We're going to throw away a Fox and Friends interview. President Trump announced that he is going to end U.S. aid to Israel this year. Which was okay. Surprising. Basically he's just ending. There's a. There's a. a 10-year memorandum of understanding that was signed by the Obama administration that goes through 2028 that provides Israel about $3.8 billion a year in military aid. So it was going to come to an end anyway, but Trump says he's going to end it two years early. But I think aid is only going to be part of the fight to come. There are lawmakers advocating for cutting off arms sales. There will be a debate about whether there is a distinction between offensive weapon systems and defensive weapon systems. So offensive systems are bombs, bullets, things like that. Defensive systems are missile defense, the Iron Dome system, for example. Joel, you have argued for continuing assistance in arms sales in the name of peace and security. Can you explain why? Yeah, look, you know, I'll go wonk on foreign policy stuff and try to be very, very succinct. I really believe the United States has an essential role. At fostering peace in the Middle East. I think that we have a track record of doing it over many decades. We have engaged diplomatically aggressively throughout the years, and that is essential because what we don't want to do as the United States is exit the Middle East, watch China and Russia maybe get a toehold. I don't think they're going to be champions for peace. I'll tell you that much. Russia made a mess of Syria and 600,000 people got killed. So move them to decide. If you want peace, you need American diplomacy in the Middle East. The track record of American diplomacy that has been successful is grounded, from my perspective, in the Camp David Accords between Israel and Egypt that was signed in 1979, 1980, with President Carter leading the way. 18 months of intensive diplomacy. And what he did was he used tools, including military aid. So the military aid program to Israel is rooted in the Camp David Peace Agreement, which ended four decades of heavy wars between Israel and Egypt. And that matters. Egypt has also gotten assistance ever since then as well. Jordan is getting military assistance to protect its borders since its peace treaty with Israel. The Palestinian Authority has gotten security assistance through the Oslo Accords. So we have a role to play. And so I really hesitate to undermine our diplomatic tools if we want to manage a peace program. And I will say, just got to add, I was meditating on how to communicate this properly, and there's no great way to communicate it, but I'll say it like this. In the first couple of years of the Biden administration, as a big fan here of the Biden administration, when I look back at it, I think they really failed on diplomacy on this issue. And if you talk to experts around Washington about it, they'll tell you there really was nothing much done on Israel-Palestine. There was a lack of imagination, a lack of engagement, a lack of pressure. And then it exploded on October 7th. I feel like we missed our window then. Another window is coming. There is a new Israeli government, which is going to be a new Israeli government. That's about to take power. It's not there yet, but it's getting there. And we need to use, I mean, it was, let me, let me jump in. I can go on and on, but I'll just say use those tools. Those are, those are good points. Tarek, I think, I suspect you disagree about the value of weapon sales. I'd like to hear your opinion on that. And then also, I think there is this fight, we saw this explode with AOC and other more progressive members about whether there is such a thing as a defensive weapon system, like the Iron Dome missile defense system, or whether those systems allow for more militarism, right? And whether we should stop pretending there's that distinction. So I don't inherently disagree with some of the framing that Joel put out there. But I think the problem is that what we have seen is that we have all of these laws already in place. We already have the infrastructure to apply diplomatic pressure. And we have exceptionalized using that when it comes, when it comes to the military, when it comes to the military, when it comes to the military, when it comes to Israel. We use that pressure in other places to make sure that people follow our laws and international law. But we failed to do that. And the Biden administration was the biggest offender of this before Donald Trump, just to be very clear, and is the reason that I resigned. But this is a consistent problem across American politics for many years where we have failed to do this. And this extends to before October 7th. If you look at God's judgment, we have failed to do this. And this extends to before October 7th, 2021, when the war broke out and Israel was hitting civilian infrastructure and buildings that included the building that Associated Press was based in. And we didn't do anything to rein him in. When we look at the assassination of Palestinian American journalist Shireen Abu Akleh, there is still not justice for her murder. And the fact that these things continue to happen with impunity, with our oversight, without our accountability for our ally, we allowed for the inevitable wholesale destruction of an entire region in Gaza post-October 7th. And that is our failure. It is our complicity because it is our ally, it's our tax dollars, and it's our weapons that are overwhelmingly being used to create that destruction and harm. And I don't think that America should be in the business of co-signing and financing and selling weapons that are committing war crimes and harming civilians full stop. And so when we talk about offensive defense, like we can talk about the nuance of like the types of projectiles that are used, like it's not just the Iron Dome is not like a dome, like it is, it is a series of very, very high tech systems that also use projectiles to prevent bombs from coming in. And I think like, I would love for America to have an equivalent of an Iron Dome. I'd love for all civilians to have it. But let's also talk about this, like weapons are weapons. Okay. And they do allow for people to use those weapons in destructive ways. And when you are a country that is not using weapons in appropriate manners, having the United States finance and create the impunity by which you then increase aggression that destabilizes the region further, and I'm not just talking about Gaza and the West Bank, we're talking about southern Lebanon, which has been carpet bombed to hell as well. We're talking about parts of Syria, we're talking about the fact that we got dragged into a war with Iran, which is literally from the mouth of the Secretary of State, because of another country's priorities that wasn't prioritizing the interests of Americans. And we have seen the economic destruction that that has wreaked on America. And so I do think that when we're having this debate, there does need to be diplomatic pressure on everyone in the region to make sure that there is a benefit to what is happening. And so like, I agree, giving up that diplomatic capability to have that pressure is a concern, especially because the baseline of what Donald Trump is saying in all of this isn't just let's end like weapons sales to Israel, or which isn't what he's saying, he's just sending aid. But he's doing it under the assumption that the current National Defense Authorization Act allows for the defense integration of Israel's defense industry with our own and it creates huge reliance and codependency that undermines American national security. And so I do think that when we're having this debate, there does need to be diplomatic pressure on America. It's an amazing feeling when you get Give Lennox you just might start a new tradition. Discover the full collection at lennox.com slash spicevillage. We could spend an hour on this, but I do want to follow up on this question of diplomacy. I mean, because, look, for a long time, Democrats and Republicans have defaulted to the same talking points when it comes to the Middle East. It's we need a two-state solution negotiated by the parties. That's the outcome we need. But many people, myself included, have come to feel that that line is almost cynical at this point. It is so divorced from the reality on the ground. First of all, the West Bank, which is supposed to be the territory that makes up a Palestinian state, is getting carved up day after day by settlements. But then also after October 7th, if you look at polls, both Israelis and Palestinians no longer support a two-state solution. So, Tarek, I'll start with you. Let's do 60. Let's do 60 seconds on this one. I mean, what is the right thing to be pushing for in this moment to achieve? Because, yeah, 60 seconds on Middle East. Go for it, buddy. So, to keep it very brief. I'm pretending to be a moderator. I'm sorry. We're doing our best. The talking point has been beaten to the ground, and the words are meaningless. No one actually knows what a two-state solution looks like or what it sounds like. And, frankly, it shouldn't be America or the U.K. or France or any other country to dictate to Israelis or Palestinians. What peace actually looks like. But we should be creating a level playing field for them to actually discuss long-term sustainable peace for all people in the region. And at the current moment, one side does have a right to self-determination. Both have the right. One has it in practice, and the other doesn't. And I think that if you are going to actually call for justice and equality in the region and allow for peace to truly emerge, you cannot keep the boot on. The next of the Palestinians, they have to have a voice in that process. And I do believe that you can have Israelis and Palestinians living in peace together, be it one state or two state or any other type of confederacy model or other system. We don't have to box people in, but we have to let them have a seat at the table. So, Joel, I mean, am I too cynical? Should we still be pushing for two states? What do you think is the right policy in this? In this moment, given that reality we talked about? Yeah, yeah. So, see if I can paraphrase what Winston Churchill said about democracy being the worst form of government, unless you compare it to the alternatives. I would say the same thing about the two-state solution. It is a tortured concept and construct for multiple decades. It was talked about back in the UN in 1948-49. It was a discussion at the UN after the Six-Day War. It was a discussion in the Camp David. Of course, it was in the Oslo peace process. Quite frankly, I think that there needs to be a Palestinian state. And I'll say that quite bluntly. And there needs to be Palestinian self-determination. And there also needs to be an Israel and the Jewish majority Israel. Why do I say that? Because that is self-determination that the Jewish people have fought for and bled for and thought about for millennia. And one of the dangers in the discussion, I'll get to the policy that I worry about, is the idea that there's a sort of a wiping of the Jewish connection to Israel and the Jewish people's commitment to a homeland. If you go to a synagogue on Shabbat, and I'm a bad Jew for being here on Shabbat. Sorry about that. You will see the words Israel and Yerushalayim and Sion, which is Israel and Jerusalem and Zion, peppered throughout because that's what Jews pray to and have for a couple thousand years. So that's part of our DNA culturally. And I would ask that people, not tell Jews to no longer have that connection. It's not viable. But when it comes to the policy, yeah, two-state solution absolutely is the way to go. And I think, you know, Israelis flip on a dime. I've seen it. Look, there was an Israeli prime minister who was murdered for pursuing a two-state solution by a settler. It's Saqra Bin in mid-90s, in 95. And that still lives there. I was in Israel over the summer. They still talk about that. So we need to find progress. We need to find progress towards peace. And we have a chance again. I know we can talk about if we want to. I'll close with this. With a new government that actually is going to have Arab citizens of Israel as either supporting it from the outside or even potentially being on the inside. And they've already endorsed the lead opposition figure, Gadi Eizenkot, for becoming the next prime minister of Israel. So let's try to work with that constituency, which we've been ignoring to our detriment for decades. I just want to like also acknowledge, the movement that is happening in the region. And I think it's great to see that there is progress. But I also want to call out at the same time as the Arab parties being able to have, you know, some participation by Arab Israelis in the region to vote. There is also 6 million Palestinians that do not have a right to vote that are not represented by a government or a state because Palestine is not a recognized state. And you continue to see those people in East Jerusalem, in the West Bank, in Gaza, under wholesale occupation. That is apartheid. There's no other word for it. And you have to acknowledge that this is an unequal treatment of a group of people because of their nationality, because of their race. And it's unacceptable. If we believe in democracy and equal rights, we can't exceptionalize it. And even for a Jewish state, there has to be an understanding that a Jewish state needs to accept that there is, is this responsibility for democracy and equal rights. And if not, and that's totally fine if not, we can't call it a democracy. Well, I concur. And I'll tell you, I worked at the State Department in like 2005, 2006 as a career guy when the Palestinian Authority ran an election in Gaza and lost, Fatah lost. They took power and then Hamas overrode them in 2007 in a coup. And the Palestinian Authority has not had an election in 20 years and it governs all the Palestinian people. So there are a lot more layers to this than, than, than just like, oh, the Israelis aren't letting them vote. So let's just talk about the potential for a new government. So I've only read tweets about the midterms for the past four days. But before that, I mean, it seemed like there may be enough votes or enough support in the Knesset to finally get rid of Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu. That would be. A great thing for the world. It would be a great thing for Palestinians, for Jews, for all of us. He is a historic, corrupt, racist piece of shit. But the day after is not a panacea, right? I mean, Gadi Eisenkot is a hardline general. He is not committed to getting rid of settlements in the West Bank. He supports the settler project. He might reduce violence, but he is opposed to a two-state solution. It is likely to be. Historically speaking, a pretty conservative government, if they were to form one, it's frankly just kind of gross that there was even a debate about whether Arab parties should be allowed to be part of the government. I mean, that is just fundamentally a racist place to start. So, Tarek, I mean, if Netanyahu goes, how much does that change things in your view? On the ground? To the U.S. relationship. Oh, for the U.S. relationship? I actually think that we're. We're in a somewhat dangerous place if Netanyahu is entirely gone and Democrats believe that the issue has been solved. Because I think you described exactly what the issue is, is that there are systemic problems in the way that the Israeli government has been operating that go beyond one individual person. In the same way that we have problems in our country that we can't always attribute exclusively to Donald Trump. Donald Trump is a terrible leader and really problematic. And constantly violating laws with his greed and corruption. But there are other problems in our system. Like, you know, our members of Congress are still trading stocks. Like, let's deal with that too. Let's address corruption writ large. And I do think that there is a comparison there where you can't blame everything on just one person. But what we have seen in American politics is that we have repeatedly said, well, this is a Netanyahu problem. This is a Netanyahu problem. And if he's gone, we can't let that be the end. We still have a role in this. We still have been complicit in the ongoing harms and war crimes in Gaza. We have to solve that. That is our responsibility. Joel, what changes if Netanyahu goes in terms of the U.S. relationship? What a breath of fresh air it would be. You know, Netanyahu has basically hovered over Israeli politics for three decades. And he led the incitement in the streets of Jerusalem against the Oslo Accords that some say led to, you know, the assassination of Rabin. And so there is a real history there. Itamar Ben-Gavir, the racist security minister, is a member of his government overseas, not just the dynamics in the West Bank and to a certain extent in the Bezalel Smotrich, also right-wing, but also is responsible for security in the Arab-Israeli communities, the Palestinian-Israeli communities. And they voted him out because he's let it fall into chaos. So. So I think it would be, breath of fresh air for Israel. If you recall, before October 7th, there were street protests practically every weekend for months demanding democracy in Israel. The Israeli people are desperate for a new government. And I'll just tell you one quick analog, you know, for those of us old enough to remember the Bush administration, you know, when 9-11 happened, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan happened. We had an election presidential in 2004, three years after it, and the American people voted back in George W. Bush. In Israel, they had, October 7th, they've had these wars with Gaza, Lebanon, Iran. Three years later, they're voting out that government. And I want people to really digest that because I think it's crucial that we don't do what the Biden team did, which is when there was a similar dynamic, a similar government in 2021 and 2, they basically, didn't do anything. They didn't engage the Israeli public. They didn't engage the Arab world. They kind of let it sit. And they didn't take advantage of the window of opportunity that the Israeli people are presenting to all of us. So I'm trying to be an optimist. My fear is that Trump is in the White House. That's my big fear. And that means we will have minimal effort done, but it will change in Israeli society. Let's talk about the 2028 presidential primary. It has already started. There's going to be a lot of candidates. A lot of them probably have not thought deeply about these issues or, at a bare minimum, are frankly scared to talk about them because it feels like the third rail of politics. And you get slapped down on Twitter as they're all over sitting on Claude being like, what is Middle East peace plan? Tariq, what kinds of policies do you want to see people talking about? Is it, you know, cutting off weapon sales? Is it BDS? Like, what is on the table? And what do you expect to be demanded from the Democratic primary electorate? Well, this is the beauty of, you know, democracy is that we get to have these debates openly with each other. And I want to see Democrats actually have everything on the table here when it comes to, you know, aligning our politics with our values. Like, we are a country that believes in democracy and equal rights and justice and accountability. Let's start with that on the table. Let's actually talk about, like, if Donald Trump is saying, okay, no more military aid, like, that's the baseline for Republicans. Like, we cannot let Republicans have the moral high ground on this issue or on, frankly, any issue. And so if we are going to be the human rights party, the party of, you know, understanding the pain and suffering of so many different marginalized, marginalized communities, we also have to acknowledge that this issue is something that Americans overwhelmingly have been talking about for years and have been voting on. The results of the election this past week speak directly to the heart of this issue. And that is that they are sick and tired of investing in war crimes and destruction of civilian infrastructure and life. And they believe that we as Americans can do better. So let's start there. So let's say, no weapons. Let's re-engage diplomatically. Let's recognize a Palestinian state. Let's have real accountability for the war crimes that were committed and our complicity in that. Let's make sure that we are not hiring people who were the architects of the Biden administration's policies into the future administration, whoever is going to be there. Those are, in my opinion, those are very, like, conservative baseline positions. And let's talk about actual accountability for the settlement expansion and the settler violence and terrorism that is existing and continuing and being perpetuated by those settlers with the protection of the Israeli defense forces. And let's talk about sanctions. If there is not complicity with our own laws, at a minimum, we have had these laws on the books for years. We haven't been using them. If they're going to continue to be ignored with impunity, what are we going to do for our own national security? And the last thing I'll say is end the damn war. Like, come on, what are we doing? Stop this chaotic, crazy war with Iran. That should be a priority right now, not for 2028. I mean, what do you think is the right approach post-Trump in this sort of new world? And what are things that you think are, like, on the table that are red lines for you? For example, you know, I've been in circles where I was booed for referring to the war in Gaza because I did not call it the genocide in Gaza. You know that there are going to be activists and communities that demand that all the candidates say what happened was a genocide. There are going to be calls to support the BDS movement, the boycott, divestment, and sanctions movement against Israel. Like, what are, what do you want? And what are the things that concern you that you think are being talked about? A couple of thoughts. First of all, I do not want to follow Donald Trump's advice on how to deal with the Middle East. And that means including just walking away. No Jared Kushner. Or Jared Kushner. Or J.D. Vance. I think that they're recommending a recipe for the withdrawal of American global leadership. And as a Democrat, I find that dangerous and abhorrent. There you go. Pause. I should say, I started out my career as a Peace Corps volunteer. So I truly believe, any Peace Corps, any RPCVs here? There we go. All right. So look, we got to engage. We got to be out there. We got to, our people are our best tool, our best weapon. And we should not be walking away from the world as Trump wants to, to hand it over to Putin and Xi. Okay. So don't do that. Look, a couple of things. First of all, on, on the way that we talk about this and engage in this, if, if you do a bit of a political back of the envelope analysis of the election, I think only two Senate candidates said the word genocide, and they were the two worst performing Democrats, Syed and Jackson up in Maine. Most of the rest for the Senate did not say that word. It's very important. There was a lot of concern about war crimes. There was a lot of concern about the war in Gaza, without a doubt, the weapons sales, but there are lines that I think we need to make sure that we're trying to be, if we want to be inclusive as a party, the word genocide, first of all, has not been confirmed in any international court of law as something that occurred. It has not, no, there are opinions, but there's not, I know I'm, I'm going to push back. You don't boo my panelists. Do all you want, but I'm going to say it. And, and in a political level, Israel, Palestine did not score at all. Iran scored as an impact issue when it came to gas price spikes. Okay. But those are reality points. And most of the races that were won in red and purple states that this issue was not described as we just described it here. So if you want to win those states, keep that in mind. But when it comes to the politics here on Capitol Hill and the aid program, without a doubt, like we can't just do blank checks and not have any oversight. We can't just, you know, I've seen this. I I've worked on these issues in the belly of the beast. It stayed in on Capitol Hill for a number of years. Blank checks are not just a contrary to our values as Americans. They're also dangerous. They're like a moral hazard for the countries on the receiving end of the aid. And we have to be very, very stern with that, but it has to fit within a context of American active diplomatic global leadership to use those tools, not to just walk away and not to be a turn a blind eye. The world is brought to you by quo. This time of year, something's always going wrong at the worst possible moment and your customers don't care who fixes it. Just who answers first. That's why today's episode is brought to you by quo spelled Q U O the business phone built. So you never miss a call or a customer. 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Recipes, decorating, suddenly simple pleasures become part of your holiday story forever. With Lenox, collect those moments every year or treat your favorite someone. Discover the full collection at lenox.com slash spicevillage. Let's dig into this question. Now we're off script and we're just riffing here. You and I were talking on the phone the other day about, look, I have a few concerns. One, there's just this question of empathy. And I have a lot of Jewish friends who felt like October 7th happened and it was the culmination of their worst fears of stories they had heard from relatives throughout their lifetime about the Holocaust and the threat. And they came to life. And then they felt like six months later, Israel was the bad guy already. And they were the focus of the world's ire and not Hamas that conducted the attacks. So there's this sort of empathy question. And the word genocide, Joel is right that the word genocide, there is a legalistic determination and the ICJ is ruling on that and it will take a long time. And there's sort of like a moral question, a moral determination when you call something a genocide. Because what it does is it calls. The world to action. One would hope. There's also, I think, some misunderstanding of what the term means. Like genocide is not equivalent to the Holocaust. The Holocaust is its own unique evil in our history. One should not equate it to anything. There have been determinations of genocide, like in Srebrenica, which were much smaller numbers of people. So it's not about the number of people killed. It's about the intention. It's about the intention behind that killing, right? So I'm just trying to talk through the complexity of these issues, but also the challenge that comes where genocide is also in some circles a litmus test. And if you don't call what's happening in Gaza a genocide, it is seen as insufficient, even though in practice, it's not like if we say the word genocide enough times, the problem will be solved or the world will lead to action, right? So, Tarek, how are you thinking about this question and the demands we're all going to hear from activists? Yeah, I mean, I think that activists have a job, and it's to demand the most from, you know, their elected officials, from politicians, because they believe that there's something wrong that needs to be fixed. And, you know, I'm, you know, as a Palestinian who, you know, was in the government, as we turned a blind eye to the horrific reality that was being done with our weapons and our money, and seeing the lack of empathy for Arabs and Muslims who saw their own families and their own selves in that destruction, it's hard. And I understand the pain of the Jewish community, too, because October 7th, having civilians be killed in violent ways is also equally painful. And it brings up this intergenerational trauma that our communities collectively feel. It's our duty. It's our job to lean on each other and not pit ourselves against each other. But I also want to be very clear that we have been watching this for three years, and we have seen settlers go out into the streets and blockade humanitarian aid convoys from going in. We have heard soldiers on camera talk about how they were targeting civilians and using them as target practice and that they were being directed to do damage and harm to whoever. There is a real understanding that what has happened is so far beyond the pale, and we don't even know a fraction of it, because international and independent media has been prevented from going into Gaza for the last three years. So I think that it's probably reasonable to call it a genocide, and I think that there are legal scholars who study genocide and who study war crimes who routinely call it genocide, and I don't think that it should be up to us. To litigate whether it is or isn't a genocide until it's too late and hundreds of thousands more Palestinians die because more bombs and more disease continues to flourish and more malnourishment allows for children and new babies to be killed. It is not about the number of people. It's about the intent, exactly like Tommy said. We have to be the ones to say this is wrong. Let's stop it. And so if you call it genocide, if you call it war crimes, if you understand that it's wrong, that is progress. Because there were people while I was in government who were advocating for the bear hug that Joe Biden did with Benjamin Netanyahu. That is a real problem that we, in the moment of continuing to see the destruction of places of worship and schools and hospitals, as tens of thousands of Palestinians were being killed, we did nothing. And there were people who were signing letters who said, thank you for what you are doing. Please keep doing it. Don't listen to those people who are protesting. Protesting anonymously inside the administration like myself before I resigned. Writing letters saying this is wrong. Please, let's actually take a diplomatic approach. Let's actually negotiate to release these hostages because the lives of these hostages matter and so do the lives of Palestinian children. Let's actually approach this issue with a level of humanity and grace and let's actually make sure that our policies address our failures from the past. That's what we haven't done properly and we need elected officials to do that. Unequivocally. So, first of all, I want to validate Tarek's feelings. They're legitimate. They're real. I do not want to get in the game of minimizing them. That is always a risk when we start firing at each other. We're othering each other and we're not doing that here, obviously. Look, I do want to share. I want to share just one tiny experience, though, that has colored my views of the word genocide, which is that on October 7th, I was watching online what was happening in southern Israel with the slaughter underway and we could see it. And I spoke with a colleague, friend, someone I worked with for a number of years in these spaces, and I said to her, my God, they're killing all these civilians. And there was silence. And I said, they're killing innocent people. I said, they're killing innocent women. And the response is, well, you know, Joel, they're all soldiers anyways. That was an ally. And then later on that day, I saw from activists, stop the Israeli genocide. And that was before there was any bombs sent into Gaza. And so if we get trapped, if we trap ourselves politically in the language of this, we are going to never get to a solution. My goal is to end this conflict. And my goal, my hope, my exasperation in this. Is that we as Americans lead the way diplomatically to get that. Now, I agree. The Leahy law, which is the targeted sanctions on units that commit war crimes violations should have been applied. I don't know why it wasn't. I wasn't in the administration. God bless. That's a horrible, horrible error. And it needs to be rectified. But, you know, from a political perspective, it was not the kind of winning argument. And from a policy perspective, right now, the war. Needs solutions. It's not even ongoing. And we now have a new Israeli government about to enter. And so I just hope we don't get trapped in that language that is a sort of a litmus test for qualification when we actually need leaders to come in and lean in to resolving this issue. Let me ask, we're about out of time. The last thing I want to ask you both about is just about accountability. Bibi Den-Gahu is an ICC indicted war criminal. Zoran Mamdani had, you know, talked about arresting him when he came to New York. Obviously, that was not possible for a variety of reasons. But in the last, you know, 90 seconds to both of you, like, what does accountability look like? How important is that to this policy discussion going forward? So I think the international accountability question is something that is going to play out over the course of years. I want to talk about American accountability because we're all Americans. We are here. In the political epicenter of, you know, the entire, like, country and in a moment where these politics are being discussed in real time. We have to actually talk about our complicity and our part in this. And that's why I can't believe we've gone 43 minutes without even mentioning AIPAC. But, like, let's talk about the role of money in politics. That's on me. Let's talk about, that's okay. But, like, let's talk about accountability for. I think exactly what Joel was talking about. Why did we have such this insane oversight of, like, why weren't we applying the Leahy laws? What was happening? There's a political reality that we just haven't mentioned. And that is special interests have been pushing politicians in the House of Representatives, in the Senate, and, yes, in the executive branch for years and years to not apply these laws. And we need to reconcile with the fact that. organizations like AIPAC and DMFI that have been prioritizing a posture of unconditional support to the Israeli government, especially post-October 7th, have actually played a role in undermining American credibility and have spent a lot of money in Abdul's race alone in the primary and general election, over $50 million to try and beat him. They failed, by the way, to make sure that this was an issue that did not change in American politics. And there has to be accountability for that. And Democrats have to say with clarity that special interests do not drive their policies, their people do, their voters do, and what the needs of the American public is what they care about. Joel, close us out. Take our lead. Well, on accountability on the ground, I got to say, first of all, there's one entity we didn't mention as well, which is called Hamas. You know, Hamas has been persecuting its own people for decades, murdering anyone who speaks out for peace. They didn't build bomb shelters. They built tunnels to launch a war that's been catastrophic for the Palestinian people and Israel as well. There needs to be a lot of accountability there to go around. I do think, though, Tommy, to get to your point, you know, look, the prime minister, first of all, he got clobbered in this race electorally. This is a huge opportunity for all of us. That's accountability A. That's where I stop. I know people want to go further and further. I want us to find a way to work with this next government. I want us to find a way to work with this next government and get the Israeli people feeling like they actually have a chance to get to peace. All right. Well, listen, thank you both for this conversation. Thank you all for coming out and listening. Thank you for coming to CrookedCon. And I think we solved it, guys. Talk to you soon. Pod Save the World is a Crooked Media production. Our show is produced by Ilona Minkowski, Michael Goldsmith, and Anisha Banerjee. Our team includes Matt DeGroat, Ben Hethcote, Jordan Cantor, Kenny Moffitt, David Tolles, and Ryan Young. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America. Writers Guild of America East.