Where did all the 'masculine men' go?

Today, we're talking about a question I am frankly tired of hearing online and in mixed company. Who's going to be the boys? Now, if you haven't heard this question, count yourself among the blessed, but maybe you've heard it by another online name. The Sassy Man Apocalypse, the Zesty Agenda, the Badazel Jeans Sia. All of these are ways to describe what some women are calling a drought if the alleged quote, "real man" in the dating pool. The phrase actually goes back to a clip of the rapper, Kaya. But if everybody wants to be a girl, who's going to be the boys? I can't say anything. We feel like I have some masculine men. She was initially describing gay men, but as the audio resurfaced and viral on TikTok, women started using it to describe straight men who weren't living up to their standards of manliness. And when it comes to a man, don't come around me with no nose ring, no hook earring, none of that little dangly cross earring, and definitely don't come around me with no pocket room. What am I going to do with you? Is I'm the girl or are you going to be the boy? Which one? But what does this online search for the missing masculine men say about our society's expectations of men? And how might these expectations be causing problems for all of us? To parse through these questions, I'm here with Shah Jassal, journalist and culture critic, Hi, Shah. Welcome back. Hello. Thanks for having me, Brittany. Great to have you. And George M. Johnson, your time-speciting author of "All Boys Aren't Blue" and "The Upcoming Memoir." And if I die before I wake, welcome, George. Thank you for having me. Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Loose, and you're listening to "It's Been A Minute From NPR." A show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. And a reminder, if you love "It's Been A Minute," which from the sweet comments y'all have been leaving, it sounds like maybe you do. Be sure to follow or subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app. That way you get new episodes the moment they drop. Okay, so this phrase, "Who's going to be the Boys?" It comes back to, you know, rapper Kai is living room where she asks, and if everybody want to be a girl, who's going to be the boys? The phrasing is new, but the sentiment is not. How have you seen this phrase come up lately, online or in real life? George, let's start with you. It's interesting because we use it like jokingly, I feel, within queer community. You know, "Well, who's going to be the boys?" And we all go to the Beyoncé concert hall, "Who's going to be the boys?" But to me, it doesn't come up as notoriously within our community. Sometimes it does because we do have our issues when we're discussing masculinity and all those things. Sometimes it definitely comes up and you're just like, "Okay, everybody relax." For me, though, I always go back to who defines masculinity. I'm just not 100% sure what people are actually looking for anymore in men. That's a great question. That is a great question. I'm sure I'd love to get your thoughts on this. Where have you seen this phrase pop up online or in your real life? Yeah, for me, it's been more so online than in my real life. I much to George's point when it has been brought up in my real life, which is few and far in between. It's been colloquially. It's been like a little joky joke. But as far as like vitriol and anger behind it, it's specifically been reserved for online. Feels like a siop to me. And I think that it goes hand in hand with the country speedrunning towards more conservatism. And it's a way to get black and brown communities, in particular, engaged in right wing politic. Hmm. I'm really glad you brought that out. That feels like it's so in line with so many of the observations. Only the other observations we made on this show about the supposed manufactured gender awards that I feel like are all over real life and online these days. Then as you mentioned, George, like among a lot of people in the queer community, this can also be just sort of like a little inside joke, a little ribbing, if you will, in community ribbing. But now this question is being asked of all types of men. Why do you think this phrase has not just escaped containment, but really stuck. What do you think that's about? I'm going to forget the young man and I'm not Jared McCain, but the fingernails cause a huge controversy for no reason. He just likes to get his nails painted, but he puts like causes on it when his fingernails, like cancer causes and all kinds of things. And he started getting questioned about his masculinity over his fingernails. Yeah. At the top of this year, XNBA player Jason Williams spoke about McCain on a podcast expressing his own disdain toward the nails. Williams said, quote, boys ain't supposed to do that. So I think it's like sports is starting to kind of integrate in society in a way that it rarely does. Like the shut up in dribble, like they used to tell them, it's starting to be like, no, no, no, no, no, we're not going to shut up in dribble. We go actually have a debate about this. I mean, it seems like there's a bunch of phenomena sort of hitting at once, but yeah, I think that that sport seems to be a place where this is boiling over because I imagine that it feels like a very tangible and with feeling like they need to lay some claim over a specific sort of arena of life. But, sure, what do you think? What do you think? Why do you think this phrase has kind of escaped containment? What do you think this is coming from? I think that sports does have something to do with it, but my mind immediately went to the media. I think that because there have been so many expansive conversations within the last decade in particular about men, it's okay to cry. It's okay to seek therapy. It's okay to, you know, talk to your brother and connect in a way that is not so reflective of gen-exers and boomers. I think that millennial men do do things a little differently oftentimes, particularly cisgender heterosexual millennial men do things a little bit differently than the boomers and the gen-exers. And I think that, again, it's splitting hairs. It's about some women are okay with a man crying in front of them and some simply are not. And it's so nuanced. All of it is informed by individual lived experiences and individual perceptions of masculinity and/or what is feminine. Also, there's men that, Vic Mensa, just had a come to Jesus meeting with a chance the rapper, in which he got incredibly vulnerable, I saw that, I mean, I'm pecking his jealousy over a chance his career and things like that. Sometimes the problems you will have with somebody will be in your own head. For sure. You know what I mean? And coming into seeing you in so much success, it grew jealousy in me. There were things I did and things I said at that time that I apologize for. And there are people making fun of him for it. With more men having open and honest conversation and being willing to explore dormant parts of themselves and their personalities and their emotions, I think that that's not received well. And we also have to keep in mind that men are oftentimes performing for other men. It's not about necessarily for the women. Like, straight men do a lot for the approval, the love, the affection of other men. And so that also folds into this conversation. Definitely. You know, though, I mean, what we're talking about is a lot of people using this phrase are women, cis-hat women, who ostensibly want to date men. I think that's why they care so much about who will quote unquote be the boys or whatever. What anxieties about men, do you think that this attempts to speak to even specifically for the women who are using these phrases, like, let her using this phrase? Like what expectations are being placed on men? I think social media is starting to like shape a world view that is so manufactured and so curated. Like, I guess it's like, when you see those videos of like a man picking up his girl or doing it, like because they curated so nicely, it's like, oh, yeah, that's a real man. And it's like, yeah, you do know that they spent six hours recording this, right? Right. Like, they spent the day sitting and planning what this would look like for you. So it actually doesn't look like that on their day to day. Social media, I think, has had a way of curating like what the perfect man is supposed to look like and what the perfect woman is supposed to look like and how we jump at the airport and we end up on a beach together and how we do this and I, and when she said I buy her, and when he's this, I rub his head and I do this and I do that. And I think it's curating a space where it's just like, that's not reality, though, right? Like, that's not the reality of what a relationship looks like. And we've come back like to this conservative idea of like, well, you take out the trash and I watch the dishes and you pay the mortgage, but I pay the light bill and you change the tires and change the oil in the car, but I clean the car and it's like very like dumb ideology. Yeah, region ideology of like gender roles again. Yeah. As George was speaking, it just, it reminded me, I believe Trevor Noah spoke to this in his book about like the, the caged bird theory about how men will seek out women who are the opposite of what they say they want and it's all about clipping their wings and ownership. And it made me think as you were speaking, George, like, why can't the red pill men, the disciples of the Andrew Tates and the Kevin Samuels and the trad wives and the pink pilled women? Why can't they just find each other and leave us? I've been asking this for five years, for five years, I've been asking this and leave the rest of us alone. Because it sounds like it's the perfect PB and J Sandwich. You have these traditional, rigid, conservative views of what you think masculinity looks like. And oftentimes as a woman, that finds its way into red pill content. But then on the flip side of that men, the men have a very rigid, very narrow way of what their ideal femininity or their ideal woman partner looks like. And that's making golden grams from scratch and producing eight children. Why can't you all find each other and leave the rest of us out of the conversation? Exactly. It's interesting. It sounds like what a lot of people who, I guess, are obsessed with maintaining this kind of rigidity and are obsessed with considering and asking this question. It sounds like some of them are seeking is to have the safety of the rigidity of the roles, but also the freedom to do what they want to do in some senses. And it sounds like it's tricky to have things both ways. I don't think you can. I think it's binary. You cannot have it both ways. Are you going to walk with you, walk and talk with you talk? Or are you going to be a bit more expansive? Are you going to be a bit more open to different types of people and different concepts and ideas? I think it's that binary of a choice. Yeah. In what ways do people and institutions reinforce these kinds of beliefs outside of the digital and online spaces? I'd like for you to talk about how you see these show up in women's spaces. And George, I'd love for you to talk about how it shows up in spaces that are seen as traditionally or even exclusively male. [LAUGHTER] Oh, boy. OK, so you got to slap and take a breath. Oh, god. Like, we could start with alpha-fi alpha-photinaria corroborated, which is my fraternity that I've been in for 20 years. And the biggest thing that we were discussing at Convention was not affordability. It was not presidency of-- it was not-- Republican, it was not this. It was not that it was literally how do we find a way to not allow trans people in our organization? Crazy. And then midst-- Yes, I remember the same one. --and the midst of everything going on, we were trying to literally fighting at Convention about how to define a biological male. And I think about that from a couple of standpoints where it's like, one, I know we've lost the plot just as institutions when we get so caught with the red herring or the-- because it's like, this is actually not an issue, right? Unless you are just that caught up in your own fear mongering, or like, it's really not an issue, right? Because what does it mean if a trans man is an organ? What does it actually mean? And I just don't understand what y'all's lit midst test of masculinity and manhood is at this point when we're worried about that. All of that goes back to some masculine ideology that the institutions, in my opinion, continue to prop up and hold up as a standard. Yeah, I mean, I'm not a part of a black Greek letter organization, but I would say within sorority culture. My mind also went to some of the like, talented 10th type organizations, like a Jack and Jill, and the Lynx, and-- And then, of course, of course, the black church, the very foundation of a lot of black gendered performance. Because it's a safe haven for so many in different ways, but it's also incredibly harmful in different ways in ways that a lot of people haven't even began to interrogate or attempted to intellectualize. And that's what I think about when I think about traditional ways in which this conversation comes up. I can think about women's day programs, and the conversation, the overarching conversation for the women's day programming was about us to sit, find and you a husband, and what you do to keep that man. But the men's day programming is not talking about that on the flip side about finding your wife and honoring and holding space for the women in your life. And so it's a programming, like I said, it fuels a certain ideology that I think causes more harm than it does help, especially as the world continues to turn. Because we are not living in the same world of like, you know, 1923. Coming up, after the break. A lot of people aren't in relationships because they're chasing the image they've created, and one that doesn't actually exist. And so when they're picking apart a person, they're picking apart a person based off of something they created in their head. Stick around. There's so much here with regard to respectability and feeling the need to show, I don't know, why people, rich people? I don't know that, you know, we're worthy and that we are enough. And that can go so, so, so, so deep to something as elemental as, I don't know, just like what you choose to wear the morning, who you choose to sleep with, how you choose to present yourself, it's a limiting role. And also a type of person that I can't imagine you can get very much from as a partner. But I wanted to, George, what does it say that these questions suggesting that there are, quote unquote, too many feminine men actually started within the queer community. Like in what ways do gay men or queer folks kind of put pressure on each other in a more serious way? I don't know that there's like a joking tone that can be to this, but it seems like it might also be kind of concealing a different kind of policing. - Yeah. God, if I say this, they go to be like, girl. - Say yes, say yes, say yes, say it. - I feel personally that a lot of people in our community do shrink themselves in the search of trying to find some masculine ideal that's made up in their head. And so I do think within our community, when we talk about just relationships, a lot of people aren't in relationships because they're chasing an image they've created and one that doesn't actually exist. So when they're picking a part of person, they're picking a part of person based on something they created in their head. And I mean, I could say like years ago, I was probably guilty of it. Like, oh, I think my partner will look like this. And so then when you meet somebody who might be fantastic, you're already like, you want your start to have some angst. You're picking them apart, but you're picking them apart based off of something you've created in your head. - Right, right, right. - Isn't actually a person, right? It's just like some manifestation of what you had hoped. And so I think that's how it shows up in our community. I remember a time, many years ago, like I wouldn't get my face beat. You know, I'm just, you know, just regular face. Now, I wear a mug, I wear heels, I do what I want. And, but I used to be like, oh, if I wear this outfit, certain people won't find me attractive. And I used to do that. And I know there are so many people that still do that. They limit themselves, they shrink themselves because the man that you always wanted, you finally got him. And then his best friend comes in the apartment to visit and he's like, hey, sis. And now you devastated because this man that you thought was so masculine is getting called sis by his friends. - Yeah. - And it's like, she was, all she was saying was like, that's why none of this makes any sense. Like, because to you, your ideal person is probably viewed differently. Depending on what room they walk through. - Yeah. - There are so many people who literally like, George, I don't see you as like fam or as feminine. And I always find this so funny 'cause I'm like, well then what is yours measurement? Like, 'cause I do have four pictures in high heels, in four pictures in dresses, in full pictures in fully beat mugs. So like, it then started to confuse me. 'Cause I was like, well, if I'm not, then what is, it's like, is it if you live it every single day and you carry like a purse every day and you have to, so even for our community. - I mean, that sounds a lot like how dating works between-- - And it sucks. - And it sucks. - People as well. - I have had someone literally send me a direct message. Like, I love when you dress like a boy. - Wow. - Like, I'm so trying to do when you're dressed like a boy. Like, ooh, like, I would be with you if you always look like this. - Mm-hmm. - But what I be with you. Like, it's the question. - Right. - 'Cause you didn't even, you just removed my full autonomy and it goes to the band, so let me think, 'cause you removed my autonomy because, because I dress a certain way and because I wear here, you feel like you get to be the picker. And Tracy Ellis Ross just talked about this. I could be as big as I want and as small as I'm up, like, you don't get to be the picker of me. I also get to be the picker of my person. - Shar, what does it say to you that women, at least in this case, specifically, seem to be the ones doing the gender policing online, at least as far as I can see. Like, sometimes it's the same women who are complaining about patriarchal oppression and they're then turning around and as our producer, Crantonio puts it, tightening the gender shackles on men. So, what do you think of all that? - Yeah, I think for me, it's all of this stuff folds into social currency. How you perform gender and how you show up is social currency and people are deathly afraid, which I get it of losing a modicum of their social currency, because that means something that oftentimes determines your quality of life, your social currency, that determines your network, your professional network, your personal network, is how you show up, how you perform your gender. And I think that the more comfortable we get with ourselves as as women as men as non-binary people. And we define it for ourselves. I think there's such a power in that authenticity that just can't be shaken. I feel like it's it's attractive to the right people. But it also is is is is a power there's a a power in that that cannot be commodified or defined. That definitely folds into the larger conversation. It's just about how you show up. And if you are convincing enough in your gender performance for people to believe you believe who you say you are. I'm glad that you bring up performance. Gender studies professor Marlon and Bailey writes extensively about performance labor. The idea that marginalized people have to constantly construct rehearse and perform gender identity and realness as a tool for survival. It's it's how you behave so that you don't get kicked out of the house or outcast from your friend groups. When we see the viral surge of who going to be the boys or watch black men come under surveillance for basic mundane choices. How does that relate back to this idea of quote unquote performance labor? For me, I think it it's a direct link into like I just mentioned that authenticity. I think that for men in particular, since that is the topic, men have a responsibility to define what manhood and masculinity is for themselves. And so I think that like I said, as it pertains to men, like the men who are getting their manicures, the men who are unafraid to maybe go blonde with their fades or the men who throw on a kilt or a skirt, like literally the Dennis Rodman's the Andre 3000's like you have to define what manhood and masculinity is for you. Otherwise, you're going to drive yourself crazy because it is a bottomless pit. There will always be, if you don't know who you are within this whole gender conversation or how you want to show up, you're going to be second guessing yourself every time a new TikTok is released every 30 minutes about about this topic. Yeah. And that's not a way to live. What do you think, George? There's another funny enough, but there's also another caveat to it where when that statement is made, like who's going to be the boys, especially when it's coming from like straight women, I think it's it's not also just about like I'm looking for a certain type of man as much as it's I want less competition in the performance of what I'm doing. So it's like if I'm doing my performance and I'm a cis woman and I'm doing my makeup and I'm doing my beat and I'm wearing my heels and then the person sitting next to me is George with a full mug and a full and a full tight outfit on and a full and a nasty shoe and then it's like when I make that statement, it's not because I'm attracted to George. I have a fear that the person I might be attracted to may also be attracted to George because now we're doing the same type of quote and quote performance. Which takes away both of your person, which takes away both, but but it's a real thing. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder how do the social pressures on men, particularly black men, create problems for all of us, for everybody? My mind went to violence. That's where my I would at the first word. I hate that. But the first thing that came in my head with fitness side was literally the first word I jumped in my head was for my side. My mind went to violence and misogynoir and trans misogynoir and men not necessarily being raised in environments that encouraged them to really express any other emotion other than anger and rage. And then they don't know where to put that or what to do with it because that is how a lot of times certain pockets of our community define what masculinity or manhood is like. And as a result, we get domestic violence. As a result, we get harm done to all women, cis and trans women within the black community. And I think that it is a direct result of how ugly things can get when black men in particular are overpoliced in the ways in which they show up. You know, it's just interesting. It's so it sounds like what you're saying is that the same way that there are many different kinds of ways to be a person. There are many different kinds of ways to express masculinity or be a man. Yes. Thank you both so much for this conversation. Sharp. George is such a pleasure to have you on the show. And I'm so glad we got to talk through this today. I learned so much. Yes, thank you, Brittany. This was fun. This was fun. Thank you. That was journalist and culture critic, Sharp, Jocelyn and George M Johnson. New York Times best selling offer of all boys aren't blue and the upcoming memoir and if I die before I wake. This episode of it's bit a minute was produced by Corey Antonio Rose. This episode was edited by Nina Patuck. Our supervising producer is Sheriff Vincent. Our executive producer is Barton Gurdwood. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right, that's all for this episode of it's bit a minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.