Where are they now? Mark Vicente on the Narcissist’s Playbook (Part 2)

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The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything. I'm Sarah Edminson. And I'm Anthony Nippie Ames and this is a little bit culty. We woke up from a cult and that journey was captured in the vow on HBO and in my memoir, SCARD. Now in this podcast, we break down the shame and secrets that make these experiences so destructive with honest conversations on how seemingly benign groups can cross into the cult of us and how to spot and recover from trouble if it happens to you. Each week, we bring experts, survivors, and whistleblowers to explore red flags, resilience, and even share a few laughs because sometimes you got a laugh. Subscribe to our Patreon for early and ad-free listening, some live Q&A and exclusive content at patreon.com/a little bit culty. Welcome to season 8 of a little bit culty. How it meant to ask at the beginning, but we got right into it, like how are you? Like this has been such a challenge. I know getting this out and like, you know, I we understand labors of love, but how does it feel now that it's out and you're fine? I think he's fine. Yeah, I know. I want to know how he's doing. I'm actually not feeling now. I'm actually not feeling tired. I mean, I will tell you, so you know, I've also been doing your audience will remember that years ago you guys had the Bintinho people on Jay Jack. So it tells about that too. The box. So, you know, from probably just before they went on the podcast, we began documenting as well, right? So we've basically been shooting them for five years. And I just went out to the Netherlands with them to go and document a bunch of stuff out there, which is very exciting. I've now spoken to probably every single person that's come out. I thought, but now more people are coming out. And so I've been doing this podcast. So the series is called Instagurra and the podcast is also called Instagurra. I've put out seven episodes so far. They're intense. I'm tired. I like, I feel really, really proud and satisfied with being able to get this film ready and to also work in the Instagurra series. But I have a level of exhaustion that is emotional exhaustion. That's profound. Like, you guys know this. I have heard so many horrible things over the last five years. I've heard some of the worst of humanity. And you guys know, I went into prisons to talk to murderers. So like, I've already seen bad shit. But there was something about the slow decapitation of people's souls, you know, and having them share that. The same thing happens with you guys. They share that pain with you. It's exhausting. And I don't say to say like, I don't want to do it. It just hurts. Like, my heart just hurts from years of listening to so much pain, you know, and so much hard. Are you taking care of yourself? I'd like to say yes. Well, Mark, you know, one of the funny things I need to take care of yourself. Yeah. Bonnie, I'm gonna take Bonnie. I mean, she's on it. I'm sure. If we could keep him a share like what was going on when we were going out, when we were all getting out in some of the conversations Sarah and I had like, we could leave the drama and go be parents. Yeah. Like, honestly, Sarah and I talked about it. If we didn't have Troy, if we didn't have that, we would we had to stop. We had to stop where to it. It demanded our attention. And so I got into like a different parasympathetic place. And I kind of stayed there with my son. And I recognize you and Bonnie were just in the gunfight the entire constantly. And I imagine that's kind of like you got to give yourself that. Give yourself a puppy or something where you can go like, just leave your world. You know, you're a little puppy right now, but I know what I mean though, right? I do. I will tell you one one thing that actually is very hopeful. We live very close to this beautiful wilderness area where there's deer. And like sometimes in the morning we'll go out like just up to sunrise. And now it's a gun. I just want to go see that no, not with a gun. I could say that. I just go look at fucking Bambi, you know, in the back of the fields of Texas. That's what I'm talking about. I feel better, you know, and then I go and shoot targets that have nothing to do with animals, you know, it's important to get your aggression out. Yeah, it's important to be prepared. Get your aggression out. Well, let's just say it. Let me say it this way. I've collected enemies. Yeah. I'll just say that. What's the pushback you're getting on this stuff? Other than the lots of support from Netflix or oh, that's the least that's the least that shit. That's the way. There's in. Sorry, can you say one thing? But they'll comment about there's no audience. Like number one docuseries on Netflix right now is trust me the false prophet. I know. I know. So what the fuck Netflix? I know. I'll tell you something else though. That's a lot. If you ask me, Mark, yeah, I'll tell you something else that people people say things like, oh, you know, you should Netflix Netflix as though Netflix is a really wonderful thing. Here's what the streamers do. They know filmmakers are desperate to get their shit out there. So they will take their stuff, pay them almost nothing and maybe marketed or maybe not marketed. But then you don't have control of what they're doing in terms of market. You don't want that. No, no, do not want that. Don't want that. Listen, they might realize that they may listen. What happened with what the bleep is they, I mean, everybody said no. And then you know what happened like four months later, everybody's banging on the door. Like, oh, they didn't say turns out there is no audience. They said things like, oh, it seems to be making money. It was like, yeah, you don't say we're patient. You know, it's it's taken five years to get here. But I believe in the audience. Yeah. I believe in the audience. Tell people what they want. That's the thing. I can tell them what they want. Sidebar, because this won't be over a couple of weeks. Did you know? Did you watch false prophet yet? Not yet. Not yet. I've been chatting. Yeah. And you know that I've been chatting with everybody a bunch about it. Yeah. Okay. And did she, she told you about her experience with Keith Rineri? Long time ago she told me, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know that they did it three years ago. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Same. In sane. It's insane. And she texted him in like 19 2007. Like, hey, you should get a cult expert to look at this group because there's an outlet. You can deculp it. There's some elements that might be problematic and you should get someone to look at it. She's like, can you get her on your pod to talk about? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She days ago. Yeah. And it comes out nice. Well, it'll be last. I don't know. It'll be last week. It comes out. Yeah. She's incredible. I mean, what she did is fucking incredible. And she's she's saved. She's has saved people. Warrior. What a warrior. Yeah. She's a warrior. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, it's in fact, there's no audience for it is bullshit. People are hungry. It's bullshit. It's complete bullshit. But one of the things a lot of artists are recognizing that part of the reason the film industry is failing, if your audience doesn't know, this the film industry is is in utter freefall collapse. Yes. I didn't know. Part of the reason is because if you ever looked at those movies with all the producers, those people have skimmed so much money off the top and the bottom that they're so little money to actually make things. But you know, they've got second, third, fourth and fifth houses so good for them. The industries become so predatory that it sort of squeezed artists out so much. I think 45 technicians left Hollywood in the last year just left. Like really high skill technicians just left because it's so difficult to make films. So I think the industry is going through this kind of revolution right now and there's sort of embracing AI in a way that's completely stupid. Like, I think AI has a place. But they're embracing the way that's completely stupid. And I think what they're going to finally realize is that films will come out that are very authentic and they look and they go, huh, how did that become successful? Because it's a fend if motherfucker. Because it's real and it's real feelings, you know, they're the last. to know the last. Oh, I just reminded me I did have a question. I won't say who, but there was somebody one of the self-aware narcissists has an emotional moment in your film without giving away the, you know, giving away anything. What do you think was going? Was that a performance? Was that real? What do you think that was? I have my opinions, but I'm not going to say, but I really want whoever's listening to this podcast. When you see the film, I'd love to hear what you think. Let's just say some people in that room believed that some people didn't. Not going to say more than right now. Okay. Well, hopefully this is a lot of cliffhangers for people to be excited to see. But let me let me talk about something related but adjacent and somewhere else. I mean, did you notice in ESP, sorry, Nick Sim, how many people did crocodile tears? They're just a performance. Just complete crocodile tears. I mean, some, yeah. Yeah. I mean, like very famous actresses who basically tried them suddenly stopped crying and like, what the fuck just happened? So I think there's a lot of performance that goes into thing. I will say this. Let's go back to my film. I believe that if narcissists do cry, what they're experiencing is pity, self-pity. They're not crying for anything other than themselves. Yeah, I agree. I'll never cry for somebody else. They feel sorry for themselves and the pity is what makes them cry. And people think, oh my god, they're feeling all these things and they're so deep in this bottom as well of wonderfulness and yada yada yada. Yeah, I feel like that reminds me of season two of the vowel with certain tears. Yeah, exactly. Like those are tears, but what are the tears for? What are the tears for? Yeah. Before we hear from our sponsors, just a quick reminder, our book, a little bit culty. Navigating cults, control and coercion is officially out and available on Amazon. Signed pre-orders have closed, but you can still get your copy today. This book is the culmination of five years of conversations, interviews, and research. Everything we've learned about how people get pulled into high control groups and how to avoid escape or heal from them. If you've been listening to the podcast, I want a deeper go-to resource. This is it. 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Go to Quince.com/culti for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's q-u-i-n-c-e.com/culti for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/culti. [pause] Sponsor breaks down back for more Coltie stories. Yeah, because there's the thing about, you know, when you see somebody hurt or somebody, it's interesting in these interviews I've been doing with with Jay Jaffin-Killin a whole bunch of other people now for Instaguru. There's their times when, you know, when we're like this, you know, looking at each other on the screen. Like, I just start crying. I'm crying because what they're describing is so painful and it sort of touches something inside of me. And then what happens is, you know, if you have that experience, you assume that when others are crying, it's for the same reason. And you assume like, oh my god, they're feeling the depths of what I felt. No, they're not. At all. They could be feeling fucking nothing, but they feel sorry for themselves. One of the things that, just to go back to the film, you know, one of the things that happens in the film, because we touch on politics in the film. And we touch it in the sense that one of our narcissists says, you know, these people basically work their way to the very top. You know, that politics is a great place for them. And a lot of people come up to me and say like, oh, you're talking about the president, you're talking about this. And I say things like, you know, when you look at politics, there's some people that just look obviously, they're obviously narcissistic. They're grandiose. But I don't think that the most dangerous, I think it's the covert ones, that are the most dangerous. The ones that speak the language of love and light and, you know, helping people and blah, blah, blah. That's more dangerous to me than the people that are, you know, just, braggadocious. Is that a word? Braggadocious. But braggadocious. It is now. Is that a word? Braggadocious. Braggadocious. Braggadocious. Braggadocious. Braggadocious. Braggadocious. That's the soundbite for me. We did not smoke weed before we had this conversation, by the way. But we could have. And we might still. And the day is young. But if I see a point, it would be nervous. To your point, Mark, you know, you have people with belief systems and everyone's belief system can have an extreme version of itself. And when it becomes extreme, the behavior becomes overt and you wear it on your sleeve or it becomes more covert and you pretend that you're not doing it and you pretend that you can't go too far. Yes. Yes. And that's the thing. I worry more about the covert stuff in the world. It confuses people. Because if you're saying something's going on, if people are telling you it's not, then it's a very hard thing to measure and then address. Yes. Yes. Unrelated to anything. What are those three gold things between the two of you on that character? Spotify awards. Spotify awards. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I don't know if they're like, I think they're more of a Christmas. present than a then it like an actual award. Was that the first? Like for viewership or what? I don't know. The free digger wrapped awards. I got two of them. I don't know. I think it was like kind of a team. It's simply two just as an accident. So they're not really nice. A lot of husband very supportive. But they look like one something. Yeah. It looks like you guys cashed in somewhere. No, it looks like we did something like three straight years. Like, oh, yes, MVP. Yeah. Yeah. This is pretend. Yeah. This is pretend. Yes. Just make sure we don't wrap up in an awkward way. Yeah. I was fifth grade junior. Sarah and I have like these jokes are now then like randomly. We'll just bark out one of his achievements. You know, I love it. You know, I ran 100 yards 100 yard dash. I love it. Oh my god. Sarah's like, that was a judo champion. That's fun. Do you know? I don't look back. I don't look back at believing all that with shame anymore. I'm just like, you know what? Everybody believes in weird fucked up shit. But at first I was like, how the fuck did I believe that? I just wish that I had known what how IQ scores work. Because I used to think that he was 240, which now I know is. Astronomical. I didn't even know how astronomical it was. I just was shut it out. I just, and that's in the book too. Like, do your research. I didn't even check to see any of the things that. That was his claims. I was like, well, I did with the person that enrolled me. I'm like, what is this? What is this? And he was in the Guinness Booker World Records once. And I actually saw it. Yeah. But you, but you guys addressed it in your book. You addressed the whole trusting, you know, leveraging other people's trust. Yeah. Like a lab coat doctor. Yeah. Yeah. The miscew to make sure that there's not an awkward ending. Because I know you have a legal call, which we end in like six minutes or so. Well, I do want to talk just a bit about what we're trying to do with the film as well. And what just, I want to plug a few things. And what we're trying to do is, you know, just plug this podcast. Instaguru. It's called Instaguru. The A is an at sign. Instaguru, Ventini, I'm sorry. That's on YouTube and also on all podcast platforms. And we've done seven so far. There's a lot of stuff that's still coming. I just interviewed a spiritual teacher that knew Ventini many years ago. There's a lot of people. You know, there's also a book. You know, there's a book now as well about. Yeah. It's called the grape from the guru, which is the Dutch for in the group of the guru. He's written by this journalist, Eva von Vorden, who I've been working with for five years as well. He interviews about 60 people. Wow. Oh, that's amazing. Of the box. Is the box still on the run? The boxes on the Himalayas with he is withdrawn from the material world. So this is like a seven dimension now. He's dissolved. But he did write a piece of aggressive letter while he was distanced from the world. And he called the defectors and journalists alligators. So we're not alligators. It's not like some of you know, we're alligators. But anyway, so that's coming out. That's out already. We're going to do a lot more. There are people coming forward that nobody's ever heard from before because they're listening to the podcast. And a lot of people that left that didn't really do the deep programming work or listening to the podcast going, oh, shit. And now they're reaching out and talking. So that's pretty amazing. Is that on your channel? That's on my channel. It's on WTAP. That's on my mind. Yeah, same channel. And then with the film Narciss Playbook, you know, people can just go to NarcissPlaybook.com. What I'm love to do is I want to give you the donation links as well. Because we're raising money as we go. And what we're trying to do is basically we want the film to be seen and by as many people as possible. And the two things we need to do that are basically we want people to be aware that it exists. And we need the resources to do our outreach, marketing, advertising, and putting in theaters ourselves. So that's what all of the money that we're raising is going towards is basically doing all of that. And of course, you know, there are some legal fees as well. You know, so also what we could do Mark is yeah, good cause we could put at the beginning of the months in two weeks. We have a newsletter that comes out. We could put a little article about it there. And there's I think like two or three thousand people not a ton, but you know, it'll get to that group too. Yeah. And you know, another thing I was thinking about what I love about like because we, you know, because our podcasts are slightly different. You know, you guys are showing the pattern consistently across multiple cults, which I think is so important. And my obsession, if you want to understand is a lot more just about the pathology. Like that's my obsession. But it won't last forever. It's like what it is for now, but I'm obsessed with the pathology and then seeing how it plays out at all different scales. I tend to not get too deep into the weeds with politics. I talk about the pattern as opposed to this specific. Correct. Because people are so fucking reactive, you know, yeah, yeah, get into the content. No, which is so interesting because there are, you know, as we know, cult experts who really do get into the politics. And I feel like they're alienating the other side. I know. I know it's a huge problem. But Mark, this addresses what you're doing because this is actually what the narcissist set up. Yeah. A tumultuous atmosphere where people, good people are at each other's throats and not recognizing they have a common enemy. I'm so happy you said that because that's exactly what's going on the sia that was designed is basically having us triangulating all of us against each other. Right. And we don't start to look at stupid shit, stupid shit. Stubborn, you can't change the stuff you can't change. I can understand giving people a whole time of the stuff you cannot change. Right. It's what is it immutable? Immutable characteristics and it's a perpetual fight. Yeah, they can find a perpetual fight. And if you take the bait, you're in the, you're in the deep in the trenches. And like I said, the people like the news is not true. And they go, yeah, well, the other news is not true. My news is streaming my god, you're an atrocious bond with your own like fucking abusers. And Mark, come on. Mark, all this said, I'm still susceptible to it. I'm still catching myself going. I have that guilty pleasure of seeing someone that I don't like. Get it. Yes. So like, this is someone I'm not saying I'm a vault and I'm saying I'm still like, I still have that. Yes. Good. Glad that happened. Like, yes. So I know there's like, I know it lives in me. That's still in us versus them. Yeah. It still lives in me to a certain degree. Totally. So it's like, I agree with you. I agree with you. I don't even know what's going on. Like, I see things that I get upset. And I'm like, how can I believe that happened? And then I dig deeper and I got that didn't happen. Fine. There's so many things that I really like. I'm a teacher. I really like. I really love to like find out for we should have a bitch sash episode. We should come to the episode with a list of things that we just want to fucking riff about. And maybe we can bring in someone else. Maybe Karen and Triner. Let's just have a nice. She wouldn't bitch quite the same way. No, she said no. No, no, no. We need somebody petty. Yeah. I have you. Marl, real petty. Mark, I'm obsessed with petting us. I told Sarah this. I told. Right. It's my. We had an experience about four or five years ago where I was pulling out of an apartment complex. Right. And there was a guy. And it was kind of a busy two lane road with the median. So your left hand. You can tell the story so much quicker. Yeah. You had the left hand turn wide around a median. Right. And then I was really short because it's apartment complex and on a major like through way. And it changes green left. The guy sitting there. I beat them a little bit. Right. Just hit it. Just let him know it was there. He does a wide turn. Let's me get in front of him to the next stop. Like comes up behind me. And honks at me. And I was like. It's so petty. It's so. I was so obsessed with like, why would he take the time to do that? And I just, you know why that doesn't happen in Texas? Because he bought everyone's, everyone's packing. Yeah. You do not do that shit in Texas. But it wasn't even like malevolent. And it was just like, don't be but people. I had a question. I'm not what it was from. I was trying to get focused. I was trying very hard to get focused. I remember what it was. I remember it was going off. Off. If you and I both point at each other in your film about narcissism, by the way, you did that. Oh, you did that. No, you did that. I won. We all do a bit of everything. Yeah. But listen, what I was going to ask you is even after all this information, everything we've learned. I mean, Nippie and I realized in writing a book where we learn more about ourselves about our situational vulnerabilities. And, you know, even when I wrote scarred six years ago to writing a little bit called you now, I learned more about how I got in trouble in the first place. Like, there's obvious things like community and purpose and, you know, wanting to work with you and change the world and my idealism and stuff. But then I learned so much more about like my fawning and my people pleasing and my, you know, wanting the gold star and being special and like more of the like underbelly of everything. Yeah. Where do you think your remaining vulnerabilities still lie? Like, where do you get in trouble in terms of missing some of these things? And I'm in sharers too if you want. So you don't feel alone. Yeah. Let me, let me, before I do that, I wanted to share one other thing because I think it's, you ask me a great question. One of the things I've really learned and it's in the end of the film, there's a moment where Richard Grannon says something like, it's not just the narcissist that a problem, it's us who keep on worshipping them. And I think a lot about that because people say like, well, how do we change this? And I keep thinking, well, we change it by not worshipping them, by not putting them on a pedestal. Right. If we didn't give Vernieri the respect and that duration, he never would have been able to do what he did, right? Right. So there's a certain power that we have. And that's just something important. In terms of my vulnerabilities, I think that I still obsessively project goodness on people. And I still want to be part of something wonderful and great. And I meet people sometimes that I think, oh, and they're very excited and they want to do stuff with me and I think, oh, this is going to be great. And like I start to get there. this feeling of like I found another one of my people. And then I started to get kind of involved in it. And then I realized I go, no, I they just got excited for a split second. And when they say things, they don't mean anything that they're saying, they're just fucking, you know, die right out of their mouth. And I go, I did it again. Fucking got excited about like an idea or a project or something. And the thing is, I don't want to be the kind of person that doesn't get excited. You know, I don't want to be like your old fuckers, fuck you all. Sometimes I feel that. But generally, I want to be the person that just looks at every single thing as I don't know. So I'm trying more and more to like sit with my guts, like my gut feeling, but also recognize this is what's important. When I get overexcited, that's a red flag. When I get like, batshit overexcited, I have to say to myself, that's like when you're a teenager and you fall in love, it's like stupid chemicals, right? That's the thing I have to really watch carefully because I am enthusiastic and I am excited. And there should I want to do, you know, I'm fucking 60 years old. I got only so much time fucking left. Like I'm excited. But like sometimes that excitement gets a bit like wobbly. And I don't understand it at the moment, but there's actually fear in there as well. It's like gambling. You know, you get excited, but you're afraid as well. That's the thing I still have to really watch. I have to watch out for that. Yeah. Yeah. It's totally and we haven't been, you know, duped by a cult leader per se, but we've been in situations with business where we weren't necessarily love bond, but we were buttered up, you know, we were buttered up. And I felt, oh, we like totally felt my people excited about projects. And I did the same thing again, which was not researching, not getting refer, like not doing reference checks. Well, also, it's a component that a reference check when you get that excited. I totally do the same thing. Making good decisions around people requires you have to be a hundred percent authentic with yourself and the other situation in order to discern because you have to go, well, I don't want to make a decision that's going to offend. I want you have to be somewhat ruthless in that. Yeah. And figure out how to do it in a way that doesn't seem ruthless. It's just good decision making, really. And recognizing the impulses that inform bad decisions. Even cult podcast needs sponsors, check out these must have. There are things in life you absolutely do not want to be transparent about your swimsuit, your search history, that time you cried watching a commercial, but your wireless bill, transparency is everything, which is why Mint Mobile is basically a breath of fresh air and an industry built on confusion and gotchas. No hidden fees, no introductory rates that explode after three minutes, no mysterious charges that make you question your life choices. Just straightforward, 15 bucks a month, all plans, even unlimited, high speed data, unlimited talking text on T-Mobile's 5G network. That's it. That's the whole thing. 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Yeah. Like, what I try not to do is, if I try not to say, "Oh, I got to do it again," or like, I try not to say, "You're so stupid." I try to go like, "Yeah, I can see why. I can see why." Because, you know, I feel these things and I feel those things. I don't want to destroy those things in me, my exuberance, and just be forgiving, you know, because I think I've seen it a lot with people that leave spiritual organizations, and I was one of these people. I just threw everything out. We've discussed this before. I just fucking threw everything out, you know, and now I'm sort of immersing myself back into spirituality. But it's sad. It's sad when you throw out the very things that define you in your life that we're interesting to you, you know, that your soul felt moved towards. So, yeah, I think it's good not to like beat yourself up and close the door. And I know it's there. You told me this fucking, you know, seven years ago you were saying this to me. Just took a lot. Yeah. What did I say? You're saying, "Don't close the door and everything." Yeah. I was so wise. You were. You were. You were. You were. The other thing I was, when you were talking about areas of susceptibility, you know, putting people on a pedestal, and I think that goes into the excitement, like when I met you, and we've talked about this many times, I put you on a pedestal and I was so excited to work with you and be a part of this team of humanitarian's changing the world, big red flag. And you put Keith on a pedestal and miss me. You know, we, I was just thinking about that how like I definitely put him on a pedestal with certain things. But other things like when I saw women talking about like, "Well, Keith said we only need X amount of calories." And then they were like making fun of my quinoa and avocado because that was too many calories. And I'm like, "Keith's not a nutritionist." So like somewhere inside me, I didn't have him fully on a pedestal. Do you know what I mean? Like, but I did with other things. Yeah. Same with me with people. But also by the way, if they had quinoa and avocado, they may not have made some of the decisions they made because their brain would have worked. Their brains were not working. They're brains were not working. That's partly what saved me with him at least. I mean, not all the way because obviously we got branded. But, you know, I didn't move to Albany. I didn't take his his invitations for, you know, further projects or whatever. Well, he wasn't the authority on everything for you. He wasn't the authority on everything for me. So I guess that sort of that one of the lessons is like you can put somebody on a pedestal interval. You can respect what they do without putting them on the pedestal. I guess is what I'm trying to, I'm trying to, I'm sorting this out as I say it. Like, you can meet them and go, "Wow, they've really done a good job with that film," or whatever. Like, "Marin Scorsese is a really good filmmaker, but he also is not a. " Take his stock advice. Yeah, whatever. Yeah. I know what you're saying because like I look at people and I go, "They've walked a road that I haven't walked yet that I want to walk and they've done it very well and I respect that." But like, they may be an asshole in other areas, you know? And I think what I do is I don't now elevate them to like almost fucking Jesus like status. Yeah. Like I used to, you know? Right. Like how do you not fawn and thank you by the way for introducing us to Dr. Ingrid Clayton because that's not what I'm talking about. By the way, she was at the UCLA screening. She came to see the film. What would she say? She was stunned, stunned. She was stunned. I must have been really a hard watch for her too. I think so. I think she was sitting next to Romani watching it. What did Romani think of it? She was very happy. She was very happy. Yeah. I've been meaning to be very happy. There's a lot of networks that can get this out. I agree. I agree. I think I've been last night to say that I thought she did a great job. And was that her song that she sang at the end? That's her song at the very end. Yeah. Yeah. Is it amazing? Yeah. Yeah. It's so beautiful. But yeah, I think that's a good lesson. Like I'm figuring it out. I'm saying it to both of us. And I don't think Nipy does this in the same way. But I think you and I have a similar pattern of like, you know, putting, propping somebody up in them being like, oh my god, they're like gushing a little bit. You know, and so how do you kind of like root out the respect that's necessary for that thing without trading our own autonomy in a moment? Like I'm really trying hard to say how I feel about something in real time, which is really hard for me. Because in real time, I'm like, yeah, sure. And then later I'm like, fuck, you know, because I'm still falling. Yeah. No, I get it though. But it's a survival instinct. I was thinking about, you know, people say, oh, I don't do that. But like, was it 2015? I met Spielberg for the first time. and Lucas and JJ Abrams. Wow. And I hang out in one place. Yeah, and I hang out and talk to them. I was like, fuck in the high. I was high. Everybody has those moments. You know where you fanboy or fangirl over somebody. It's that thing. It's that thing just when they call it last a bit longer until you realize they're all schmucks. Yeah, I don't want to do that anymore. I don't want to be like so bulletproof and self-assured that I can just say it in real time. I'm working on it. Look at us growing. No, look at us growing. Oh, it's working on it with me. I give nippy a little bit more. A little more. No, but when I called you out after about three weeks ago, I was like, look, this is what this is the authentic part. So nippy's working on his authenticity. I'm working on it now. I can't let you touch the mark. I can't say the meme, the Carl Jung one, we talked about how your clarity becomes a problem for the people that are abusing power. And because you have clarity, you now become the perpetrator. Yes. And Nietzsche went crazy because he weaponized his clarity and he didn't integrate his clarity as a utility as an asset into the human team. Yeah. Right. So you have this skill set of clarity, let's say. Instead of weaponizing it and beating people over the head with it and being mad at them for not having it. You can integrate it into your persona and it becomes an asset to the people that you're around. And the reason you wouldn't is because you project the intent behind it, meaning you're not being an authentic because of XYZ. And because you have integrated the behavior that you see as bad and owned it and evolved it, you will never be able to integrate your clarity in a meaningful way. We're not used to integrate. Well, I like it. Is that makes sense? No, no, I get it. That makes sense. So like for me, I was like, okay, I think I'm authentic. You think I'm authentic. I say what I think often. But then I was in a doctor's office and I was agreeing with something with the doctor that I didn't agree with. And I wasn't staying or wasn't being authentic and I bust it. Interesting. So I have this persona that's rooted in being authentic. But I was in a situation where I wasn't saying what I was thinking, I walked out of it and go, that's the Carl Jung thing. I don't fucking not think in all my situations. And I was afraid of a conflict and I was like, fuck. So I called her on the phone and I said, look, I just busted myself. Like, and there's other areas of my life where I'm not being authentic. And I'm just going to dive in and say it and free myself of the prison of like shaming myself or having being inconsistent. Yeah. That's all I was doing. I was just shaming myself or being inconsistent and saying the hard thing. No doctor, I don't agree with this. And I did it. Now when I was like, you know, it was totally fine. I could do it. I've done it a thousand times. But in that moment, it was a, you know, I think the moment, I guess, I think it would be, we should give, maybe the first stripe on his orange sash. I got to write a speech or at least give you an amen. I mean, at least give you an amen for that one. I'll take an amen. I'll take an amen. I'll even thank God. I'll even thank God. I'm sure I was. And I think it may also have happened. There were a lot of fights that I had with them about like, how is Sun so getting promoted? What was my favorite thing about that? I think it was the most important thing. I think it was, I think it was the most important thing. It was the most important thing. You forgot the metric of blow jobs, though, because that may have played a side. Which I also was not willing to do. I think it's time to end this fucking episode before we go to Placis Blur. Anyway, well, does there anything that we didn't ask you that you wanted to say or plug? We'll put all the show notes, put it in the newsletter. No, I don't think so. I mean, I think just just you know, please, please support the film that we're doing. You know, I think it's very, very important. I think the film literally gives you, I hate to say it, but it gives you perceptual shift. Like going through the film, you go in one way and then there's this reversal that happens. You come out with like holy shit. And then what happens is true to my nature, I guess you start reviewing the first 50 minutes in your mind. And you start realizing like, oh, I missed it there. I missed it there. I missed it there. I missed it there. So I think it's a very. It is inductive. Inductive experience. It is inductive. But I mean, that's the should I love. I mean, that's why I was so attracted to ESP anyway. But yeah, I would just love your audience to support of like all the stuff that you're doing. Yeah, that's so important. And I believe it's important work. I'll just remind you that you always wanted to shift consciousness with media and you're doing it again. So that's really great. Always, always. I feel like I feel like I'm on the path that you discuss. Did you just try and keep yourself on? Good one. But I do, by the way, I do, I may be getting access to some recordings from prison. So there's that. Okay, one last thing I'll say about induction. We'll wrap it up. Do you think that Keith Reneerie, remember the metaphor he used about the sixth sense and how when we were teaching like this is what it feels like, oh, Bruce Wells is dead and you recapitulate. Do you think remember when we had that moment when you're like, what if Keith isn't who he says he was with me and I was like, oh my god, he's associated path and then we recapitulated. Do you think that he ever thought that that eventually we were going to have the Bruce Willis is dead Keith Reneerie is associated path moment? No, never. Never. I don't think he ever, ever thought that would happen. I think that he really believes in his own quote unquote genius. That's outside the realm of possibly just like he never thought about what people would do. When you hurt their spouse, so many gaps in his. It never crossed his mind that that Nippy would do what he would do and mobilized for the war after he hurt you because he doesn't operate that way. So that's a complete blind spot. What parents would do what spouse is shot at my family. What friends will do. I don't think I don't think he understood. I'm shooting. I'm shooting his house. He doesn't understand how it works. That's not what you do to me. No, he doesn't. It's the worst thing you could do to me. That's thank goodness his weakness. That's his weakness because he doesn't feel the outrage that you that you're talking about. And so thank goodness he didn't feel the Eric. And let me tell you, there's other things he provoked and people didn't follow through. Had they followed through he would not be walking the surface. So the have a good rifle practice. Next week. Mark has been so fun. Back on the range, baby. Back on the range. Well, thank you so much for your time. This is always fun. This will not be on our patron channel. This will be on the on the real on the on the real deal. I'm going to find this guy. If you ever want to do another another patron. I'm going to find this. You let us know. Mark. And wait, I was saying goodbye. Let me say goodbye. Say it. Well, say it. Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. Goodbye. I got to go. I got to go. I got to go. I got to go. We were like that all the time. It was the most of me. Was the best. I think it was probably all of us. It was probably. I was power walking. You were power walking. You were always huffing and puffing. I was always had five minutes. I was always had five meetings about to happen. Yeah, you did. And uh, nippy, you did it sometimes, but you were more, you were more, you didn't do that to you day. Nippy is at a breath phone. Nippy ends phone call. It doesn't even say goodbye. I'm like, I'm still talking either you hang up on me. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to just stop. No, nippy always says later, later to me later. And then the conversation's done. Yeah. [Music] All right everybody that was a marathon. We hope that you enjoyed it as much as we did. Let us know who else you'd like to hear in the "Where Are They Now" series. Until then, have a great summer and uh. Where are you now? Where are you? Let us know. Can't wait to hear from you. Bye! ♪ So let go of it all I can leave alone ♪ We hope you're enjoying a little bit culty. If so, please do show us some love. Drop a rating or leave a review. Hit subscribe on Apple, Spotify or Ever You Listen and subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/a little bit culty. Even better send this episode to someone who needs it. Maybe they're in a cult. Maybe they're just a little bit susceptible. Or maybe they just love a good story. Spread the words, spread the love, thanks for listening and see you next time. A little bit culty is a trace 120 production. Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippie Ames in collaboration with producer Will Rutherford at Citizens of Sound. Our co-creator is Jess Temple Tarty. Our production coordinator is Leslie Dinsbore. Riding by Sandra Nemoto and social media marketing by Eric Swarsinski and Brooke Keen. Our theme song "Cultivated" is by the artist John Bryant and Nigel Aslan. [Music]