258. When Power Talks, People Walk: Why Leaders Don’t Hear What Matters Most

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She's written several books, the most recent of which is Speak Out, Listen Up. Welcome Megan, I am really excited to learn from you today. Lovely to be here, Matt. I've been looking forward to this conversation. Great, shall we get started? Let's go. In your work, you talk about our conversational habits. I'm curious what are these? And why do we have them? And can you share what your truth framework is? I can. So Matt, you and I and everybody listening right now have habits, lots of habits, but the habits I'm interested in are the habits that we have around when we speak up and when we stay silent. And also definitely the habits that we have around when we listen, who we listen to, and what we listen to, and when we don't. And those conversational habits, what we hear, what we say, they define our lives when you think about it. And they certainly define the lives of the people that are around us at work and also at home. Now in an organizational settings, conversational habits define organizational success and our capacity to flourish. Ethical conduct depends on what we're able to say and what we aren't and whether we're heard or not. Innovation depends on our capacity to speak up in challenge and disrupt and whether that is heard or not. And of course, our engagement and our ability to perform depends on a feeling that our opinion is valued and that we're respected. So that's the territory that I'm most interested in in terms of our habits and what our habits mean. And of course, how we disrupt our habits. And in our research, we've asked thousands and thousands of people, why don't they speak up? So I'll just ask again the people that are listening, think about something right now that you feel you could or should speak up about, but you haven't. And then think about why haven't you spoken up about them. And I've asked lots and lots of people that question and come up with what we call the truth framework, which is five factors that affect our choice around whether we speak up or stay silent and whether we choose to listen or not. And very briefly, the tea stands for trust. So to speak up, I have to trust in the value of my opinion. And to listen, I have to trust the value of other people's opinions. Our stands for risk. So when I'm speaking, I tend to think about what the consequences are. And of course, we can catastrophise about that, but we're often worried about our relationship. We're worried about being perceived negatively. If we're listening, we need to understand how those speaking to us experience risk. You stands for understanding and it's understanding power and politics, because speaking up and listening is political, a political act. The second tea is for titles and labels, because if there's one thing that affects what gets said and who gets heard, it's our construction of status and authority within a system. And the H is the how-to. I may have something to say, but unless I have the words and the person and the time and the place of stay silent. And similarly, I may want to invite other people to speak, but unless I know how to do that skillfully, I'm not going to hear a thing. So that's the truth framework. We really use it to help people to understand why they do what they do and how to disrupt it, if they need to. Everybody knows I love a good acronym and I want to dive deeper in through it. But the broader point here, our willingness to share our opinions, to speak up, as you say, is inhibited and restricted due to a lot of things beyond our control, some in our control. And if we really want to be functional in an organization and in our relationships, we have to really work on this. And I appreciate you highlighting the problem. I'd like to dive into the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. A couple of things stand out to me that I'd love for you to dive deeper into. So you talk about understanding, you talk about titles and labels. So there's a political status, performative nature in this. I'd love for you to share a little bit more about how we can be sensitive to this and what we can do when we feel that we are being restricted in our communication and not listen to, as a result of the politics and status that are at play. Yes, as I said, if there is one thing that affects the conversations that we have at work and outside of work, it's how we're busy constructing our status and authority in relation to other people. So a kind of practical way to think about this is think about all the titles and labels that we throw around in an organizational system. So we've got things like hierarchy, of course, hierarchical labels. We have things like gender, we have things like expertise, department, the number of years you've been in an organization, we've got reputational labels, you name it, we label it inside an organizational system and depending on organizational culture, fascinating thing is that these labels and titles convey relative levels of status and authority, depending on the context. So you can't really generalise about them. So I often in my work ask people which titles and labels affect voice in your organization. For example, people might say if you're in the executive management board, obviously everybody listens to you, but not if you're further down the hierarchy. Or they might say if you're in commercial, you lucky person, you kind of rule, everybody listens to you, but if you're in HR, you have a more tricky time. Or vice versa, yeah, there isn't really any patterns here. So these titles and labels and our understanding of power in particular help, not only when we're speaking up, but also really when we're listening up. So this brings me just to something that we have in our research called advantage blindness. So when we have the in inverted commas right labels in a system, in other words, the high status labels, we are actually very unlikely to notice the impact that they have on other people. If we have the wrong labels or the underdog labels, the less status labels, it's actually really obvious to us the impact that has. An advantage blindness is the fact that when we're, I don't know, chief executive and we come from commercial and we've been in the organization for 10 years and we have a good reputation, our experiences that we can speak up and everybody listens. And we tend to then assume that's everybody else's experience too. So what it means particularly as you go up the hierarchy, as you are very likely to overestimate the degree to which other people are speaking up around you, you'll probably overestimate as well how approachable you are. And you're almost certainly overestimating your listening skills as well. So this means that we can have this what I call an optimism bubble going on. And that's ever so important, particularly if you're in positions of power in your leaders and managers. And frankly, to do your job well, you need to hear what you need to hear. I think you hit the nail on the head there with this notion of awareness. Everything I'm hearing you say certainly rings true in terms of where you are in the hierarchy, your experience, your title, that all influences how much you perceive others listen to you and understand. And we carry that idea that others have that same experience even though their rank status experience is different. So it's about awareness. So I'm curious how do we build awareness? How do we burst that opportunity bubble and really leverage advantage blindness? What do we do? Yes, it's a good question. The first thing is that as I said, power probably affects our conversations more than anything else. And wonderfully, ironically, if they're there is a conversation we're least likely to have at work. It's about power. It's this capacity to open up an understanding of how this is influencing our conversations at work in a way that sparks curiosity and interest as opposed to defensiveness. And a lot of my research is about doing exactly that. But I talk about three traps in particular that people in positions of power need to be aware of. And the first trap is around knowing that you're probably more intimidating than you realize. So as I said, we tend to think we're lovely and approachable. But because of the titles and labels, we wear, actually, it's not so much. Our first article in Harvard Business Review, which was about probably nearly 10 years ago now on this research, was called The Problem with Saying My Door is Always Open. And it's not a problem to say that. It's a problem if you think anybody's actually going to walk into your office and tell you what you need to hear. So first thing is just be aware of power and be aware about how those labels mean you might be intimidating. And then you need to put the other person at their ease. Choosing environments, choosing your moments, choosing your questions, we might come onto that. There's lots to say there. But how can you reduce the risk for the other person? The second trap is around echo chambers, essentially. So we often go to the same people for opinions and advice. Of course we do because we trust them. But we need to question that list of people that we tend to go to all the time. And even more so, cast our attention a little bit wider and ask ourselves, actually, who am I not hearing from right now that in order to be a brilliant manager, leader, whatever, I really need to know what they're thinking. So who, Anto, including an echo chamber is a very dangerous place for a leader to be. But it can be all too common, especially as you go up the hierarchy. And the third trap I refer to very pragmatically is the signals that we send. I often say we send what I call shut up signals, rather than speak up signals. And I'll give you one example. And I'll use myself as an example here. I have this rather unfortunate habit and maybe some of the people listening can relate to this. When I happen to be very thoughtful and interested in what somebody's saying, I can, on occasion, have what is politely known as a thinking face. And I frown and I can look a little bit intimidating, actually. And I know that that's one sort of signal. Another signal, a classic signal, is when we're meeting virtually. And we can absolutely tell, can't we, who's doing their emails, trying to be subtle about them, but failing miserably. I don't know why we all think we can do our emails without anybody else noticing. But of course, it's always noticeable. And if you have somebody around you that is trying to build up the confidence to say something important, and then they look at you and you either look really intimidating or clearly completely distracted by something else, guess what they're going to stay silent. Knowing our signals, as Nancy Klein, a past colleague of mine beautifully said, know your face. Do you know what signals you're sending, particularly, and I'll let me underline this one, Matt, particularly when somebody has spoken up. And you know what, maybe they've not done it very well because they've been really nervous. The signals we send in the next couple of seconds determine whether that person's going to speak up again. So that bit of self-awareness is utterly vital. And actually, we can train it. A lot of my research is on mindful leadership. I know we can train our attention. We can train our levels of self-awareness. We can also make sure that there are people around us that can dig us in the ribs at the right opportunity to make sure that we keep altering our habits and let us know about the impact that they have. I really appreciate you identifying the traps that we all fall into, that really accentuate and bring, in some cases, adversity to our communication around the ideas of status and power and politics. So this idea that we are often perceived is more intimidating than we are. I have had that experience in my own life where people have told me or I've learned that people find me intimidating and I feel that's not the case. The notion of echo chambers who we're actually seeking information from, and then how we show up and what we show people. All of these can work against inviting others to speak up. I like the term of shut up signals. And it's important again that self-awareness. And it strikes me that having trusted others who can give you genuine feedback about how you're showing up and perhaps even digitally recording yourself and watching and seeing it would be two key ways to enhance your own self-awareness. I'm curious if the mindfulness work that you do fits into how we can better set up psychological safety and be present in those moments. Do you have some thoughts? I was curious about this mindful leadership idea that you mentioned earlier. I'll actually just get people listening to pause at that moment and notice their response to the word mindful and mindfulness because it carries quite a lot of baggage, sometimes incredibly positive and sometimes less and there's quite a lot of misunderstanding around what it means, similar actually to the word psychological safety. I'm interested in habit change, right? Now, to change your habits, you have to have the capacity when you're about to do what you've always done to notice that in the moment and then choose to do something else. Okay, so that is at the part of all habit change and we know from our research, from widespread selection of research now that it is possible with practice to train our brain to be more aware in that present moment. So to have that what we might call metacognition that notices our thoughts, our feelings, our sensations, our actions in the moment when we're doing it and the research that we did, I did with Michael Chasklson, examined whether we can train leaders in that and our research found that with 10 minutes or more, preferably, practice a day with certain sorts of practices with the brain, you can indeed build that level of in the moment awareness so that you open up actually a very small space where you can choose your response rather than being on autopilot. Now, we'll never do that all the time, but if we could do it just 10% more of the time, of course, that would have potentially quite a profound impact on ourselves and on others. The very interesting thing is that we could argue that attention is the most valuable things that we feasibly have and nearly all of us don't train. How crazy is that if you ask me? Absolutely. I really like the way you define mindfulness. I have been somebody who has been attempting to practice mindfulness for many years now and a few things that you've mentioned that I think are critical is really it's where you put that attention. In giving yourself that little bit of space to distance yourself from the interaction, from the emotion you're feeling from whatever, to then make a choice is really important. When I coach people who have extreme anxiety and speaking in front of others or communicating with others, a really powerful mindfulness tool is simply to say, this is me feeling nervous in this moment and that distance that gives you that opportunity. And I can see as leaders or as people who are really trying to be in the moment just reminding yourself, this is me doing this gives you that perception and that opportunity. So I very much appreciate you highlighting the fact that we need to train that attention. What I have found in my own life is finding physical activities help me train my attention that I can then bring that learning into my interaction. So many people listening know I've done martial arts for a long time. Sometimes people do us Ford. Sometimes they play music. Sometimes they walk in nature. All of those are ways of training your attention. And you can then bring that to the communication in the interactions we have. We'll be right back to finish our conversation. But first a quick word from one of our sponsors. Their support allows us to bring you this show free of charge. This episode is sponsored by Squarespace. One lesson I've learned from years of teaching communication is that expertise alone isn't enough. People need a way to discover your ideas, understand your work, and engage with what you have to offer. Effective communication doesn't end when the conversation is over. 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They ask great questions and bring a perspective you don't. always here. New episodes drop every Monday on their YouTube channel and across all audio platforms and now back to our conversation. You know Megan this has been a fascinating conversation. I think what you study is really interesting and really really helpful. Before we end I'd like to ask you three questions when I make up just for you and the other two I've been asking everyone as long as this podcast has existed. Are you up for that? Yes, go for it. So you had mentioned that one of the things you have become aware of is how you appear your face if you will in interactions. I'm curious how did you learn about that and hopes that others can follow the process so we can learn how we come off and what have you done to change that? Yeah, that's a lovely question and I'm grinning from me to here because do you know what I think? Because there is an irony with this okay because if you are in a position of power or you're a little bit intimidating nobody's going to tell you that you've got a thinking face because they're too intimidated to tell you and you're on the way there and so you can just stay in this beautiful bubble without a clue and I do come across many people that discover it for the first time in an anonymous 360 and they go what the hell? I would say that the person that really landed that feedback with me was my husband. I remember particularly we were on a train journey and I can't I think there was somebody in the carriage obviously that was either having a very loud conversational behaving in a way that I didn't agree with and I clearly had it written all over my face and I remember my husband just saying honestly it's like a loud speaker coming from you at the moment. Do you know how much you're communicating? And so it got me quite interested and I think I have practiced mindfulness 25 years I think and as you will see videos of me in various places goodness me I don't get this right all of the time but I'm better than I used to be so I do have a little bit of that awareness that just says hang on Megan what are you doing with your face right now and so I have built that practice through my husband and my mind from this work. So the take home message there is that trusted others can give us this feedback and perhaps sometimes we have to solicit it to learn about it and I can certainly tell you that somebody who has had the pleasure of being able to see you and not just listen to you many of folks listen to this without watching the videos I do not see that face at all you have been very engaged so well done on you but the notion that we have to hear from others external to us and then consciously work on it and give ourselves a little bit of grace that we're not going to get it right every. Absolutely and a little bit of human helps a bit of lightness and curiosity help rather than taking it all a bit too seriously. A little dash of levity in all interactions can make things better question number two. Who is a communicator that you admire and why? So there are so many people I could list here but my mind went straight to my co-researcher and co-author John Higgins and I'll tell you why not only is he is absolutely superb communicator himself in terms of how he describes our research and advocates but the reason why he comes straight to my mind as an amazing communicator is because of his capacity and skill in helping me to communicate so when we walk we have a practice where every couple of weeks we go for long walks together without a particular agenda and John through his capacity to utterly turn his attention to me his curiosity and his amazing questions he helps me to then discover stuff that he then responds to and then together we can create some really amazing things so John is the person that comes to mind. I love that you answered that question not because he's a good communicator although you say he is but that he brings out good communication in you and what a treasure to have people like that in our lives and I hope all of us can find people who can help us in that capacity so my final question for you what are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe. So I would say number one is genuine curiosity that requires our ability to turn our attention and also to something I call mutuality to really see and value the other person in that and to be honest I don't think you can do that via techniques I think that's something that's more of a kind of orientation and a value. The second thing in a recipe would be an understanding awareness and a deep fascination with power dynamics because of the way that that affects what gets said and who gets heard and the third thing I would say is creating the space to have different sorts of conversation having the courage within systems that are tight and busy and in the doing mode how do you create that space for yourself and others to have those really meaningful and important conversations. So those are my three ingredients. I love them. Curiosity, I like this notion of mutuality, appreciation of the power and status that's at play in the moment and then thinking about ways to allow for spaciousness so the connection can really occur. Megan, this has been really insightful and fascinating conversation in so many ways. You've helped us understand the truth. I love the acronym truth and you really helped us think through how we can truly allow ourselves to speak up and speak out and help others and I wish you well with your book Speak Out, Listen Up. Thank you so much for your time and for your insight. Thank you, Matt, I've really enjoyed it. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. To learn more about psychological safety, listen to our episode 132 with Amy Edmondson and to learn more about leadership, listen to episode 148 with Irv Grousspect. This episode was produced by Catherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wunder, with special thanks to podium podcast company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. 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