When AI Disappears: What Happens to Human Experience?

Welcome to the Voice of Experience. Let's make your brand shine brighter than ever before. Carrier hosts, Elkie Jones and Max Lenderman. Hello everybody and welcome back to the Voice of Experience. Hi Max! Hi Elkie, how are you? I'm super, how are you doing? I am good! It's a really sunny day outside and I'm excited to talk about stuff to you today. You're thriving, it sounds like you're thriving. Yay! Oh wow! I'm growing, I'm growing. Oh okay. I'm growing, yes. Oh, okay. Yeah, driving is like, I don't know, driving feels too new agey for me. I am a man on this planet doing the best I can. Oh okay, I think that's good. I think that's good. How are you doing? Are you thriving? Yeah, sure. I was. Who'd go with that? Yeah, I will go with that. Well, I'm excited once again to have a chat and this isn't necessarily a new topic for us. But I do feel like we have crossed an invisible line when it comes to AI and experiences. So just hear me out for a second. I think, you know, when AI first, it came on the scene, it used to be the thing that brands wanted us, well, consumers, but us as consumers to see. But I think now it has become the thing that they don't want us to notice at all. Agreed. So you do, okay, because I was going to ask you, like, is that sort of how you're feeling? Because that's what I want us to talk about. And it's like, what happens when AI becomes the experienced director, not the experience? Oh, well, yeah, that's an amazing topic actually because it's quite possible that that could happen. But you know, there's something to be said about open AI killing Sora, right? I was kind of bummed because Shameless plug, I had a whole Max and Donkey series that I was working on. It was me and I mean a donkey and in historical moments. It was awesome. I got, you know, my Instagram blew up. Now, I really think that it was shut down. And I think in general, the brand AI has been taking just a massive hit left right in center recently, like just in culture and the news. And so the initial sort of like exuberance of, you know, wearing new clothes, wearing new AI clothes, like check out my new kicks, my new AI kicks, you know, like culture was like man, they're not cool. And I was like, yeah, you are. I'm wearing these shoes anymore. And so we kind of put those AI kicks away. And at the same time, if we will, I think experience design, I think the notion of experiential marketing is the, that brand is going up. And there's something interesting to be said about that. Whereas, you know, one's going down and one's going up. And yeah, sure. Well, what do you think? Like what do you think? Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I just want to step back for one second as you're just kind of talking about like the brand or the, you know, what's happening with the reputation. Of AI, do you think it's starting to feel too dangerous? Yeah, if mediocrity is dangerous, yeah, I think I think there's, I think there's a massive bifurcation in terms of like where my interest lies in terms of operational AI, where I do think it's it's dangerous. And then there's the observational AI, which I kind of think is just like, blah and blah, right? And I think when we talk about operational AI, like the, the idea that, you know, agentic AI can actually do work on behalf of humans and do it passively enough to scale is really, really interesting. And I think every business that requires human capital is going to be fundamentally transformed. Like at what pace it really depends on, you know, what their business model is, but eventually it will be transformed on the kind of like consumer side, the observable side of AI, you know, like I don't think it's ready for prime time whatsoever. I think that we're all kind of like waiting to see what the observable AI in the world really looks like, you know, much more than, you know, smart refrigerators and, you know, goggles and stuff like that. So I think, I think it's too early on the observable AI. I think it's really, really fast and furious on the operational AI that's going on right now. Yeah, I think that's interesting. I think about it as like the orchestration layer, especially when it comes to experiences and that's where it seems to be providing the most benefit around whether it's like flow and timing and real time content or responding to like on-site behavior or opt-in signals and that kind of server personalizing without explicit interaction. But I mean, you called this one Max. Like I wish I could go back and we probably could in our library of episodes, which by the way, episode 41 today, if you could believe that. Wow. I know. But you called this one. It's this, you know, and now we've got research that tells us that there is this growing consumer ambivalence towards over AI because it is paired with this much stronger desire for human IRL connection. Yeah. And so the dangerous part is when we start using AI to basically like fake that connection. Right? Like in the same way that social media use algorithms to fake connection or fake outrage or fake community. Right? Or like so I think there and I think that maybe that's what you alluded to in terms of a little bit of that danger that that danger sauce that occurs where for instance, we're using, you know, real time sensors and data to manipulate people, right? Within the experience, right? To use the amount of sort of like data crunching to create inference that that could be, you know, potentially bad. But at the same time, what IRL experiences are, which I don't think AI can catch up to, is is so multi-dimensional, multi-contextual and the context changes constantly, right? And the way the models are set up right now, at least you know, I'm not familiar with plant ear and anthropic or anything like that at the cutting edge stuff. But the context window to the agente AI world is fairly small, whereas the world IRL and like our feelings are in motions second by second, millisecond by second, our biology, you know, whether music, friends, like whatever it is that like that IRL presents us with is so multi-contextual that AI just can't compute, you know what I mean? It just literally can't compute. And so I think if you use it nefariously in the same way that you use an algorithm to, you know, like stoke fear, you know, there is the possibility of using it, you know, optimistically and non-synically to stoke delight and awe and wonder. But I think that's just a small sliver of what IRL and experiential can really provide. So it's not as dangerous as I think, you know, more screen-based. Yeah. A medium is because that contextual window is so much tighter. And so yeah, AI on the screen in the screens, woof. Yeah. IRL, I'm less concerned. Yeah, I think where we're netting out on this whole thing, particularly when it comes to experiences is that what's actually happening with the, I feels more structural than expressive. And that, you know, you think of AI as learning to conduct the orchestra, but humans are still expected to write the music, right? Yeah, that's that's so well said. Oh, like someone put a pin in that one. You're absolutely right. And humans need to be the ones to appreciate the music and say if it's good or not, right? And it's even better that taste layer as well that needs to occur that I don't think AI is is there yet. It's not ready for prime time. And quite frankly, like if we think about like creating experiences, the hardware hasn't caught up to the software, so to speak, right? Where, you know, I mean, just think about like LLM's how many like words you read, right? Whereas like you would never do that. Like, you know, from a sensorial perspective in terms of the multi richness. And so like the way that we even can imagine how data crunching, for instance, or inside generation or orchestration of experiences shows up in the physical space like with the hardware and technology that we have right now is, you know, a little bit disjoint. like the hardware hasn't caught up, like you can't do a sphere everywhere, right? Right. And so I'm waiting for that to happen and see how AI drives the hardware revolution and who's coming out with the cool new stuff. And I'm not just saying the wearables and peripherables, but really just like, you know, kind of infrastructural hardware for the AI revolution. Yeah, and they'll be super cool to kind of see what's yet to come. One of the things that at first, I was kind of really stoked about and now I feel a little unsettled is this idea of like synthetic audiences and that brands and even agencies are testing their experiences on these synthetic audiences. You know, paper that sounds really smart, but you know, you've said it now a couple times, but the experience is that software, you know, it's different. And so where do you think there are human signals that the models miss that matter most in experiential? The lived experience of the people creating the campaigns, the creative, the net new stuff. You know, it's that layer of, it's the impromptu of humanity that you still need to bring to it, like a point of view or et cetera. You know, you and I are not going to be the only one saying that taste and human creativity and like human signature, like a fingerprint, like in a cave, you know, like of that handprint has to be tangible for creative to work in the age of slop. Right? And we went through a little bit of a blip of AI visual slop and now we're kind of in the place of trend slop, right, or inside slop. And we'll get through that as well, right? And just in the same way that like we got through Sora, we'll get through some trend slop and I think the reason why we'll get through the trend slop is a lot of people are going to realize that the synthetic knowledge does not prove out or does not land, right? In human in human terms, it just doesn't land. I do think that there's the opportunity of synthetic focus groups to provide some sort of signal in a noise that cosmetically, you know, a human can pick up on, you know, and maybe stoke curiosity around or something of that nature. But I don't think it's the kind of like the replacement. Yeah, like it's like just just because there's a virtual one-way glass mirror of people asking questions about whether you like this pizza or don't like this pizza, you know, that kind of stuff's never worked in the first place. We just said it did for 15, 20 years and ran the entire, you know, kind of focus group industry around it. I think it's the same thing with synthetic. I think there will be some really interesting new knowledge that comes out of it. I just don't believe it to be any indicator of success. I completely agree and I love what you said about stoking curiosity. I think the other thing that I've been seeing, you know, one of the things in my job that I try to do for you as oftentimes my creative is to give you like the best unspoken human truth. I can possibly give you when it pertains to a brand in their particular audience. And I think a lot of that like tension and contradiction and like the like the rawness of life is sometimes missing in these like synthetic environments. It feels to me like as I have spent some time kind of looking at like, okay, what do you think it got? You know, what like, what can you do for me? It feels like AI like tends to smooth it out. You know, like those really raw edges, which if if you're going to produce amazing creative, like you have to have that right? Like, like you have to, you have to fail in order for people to believe you. You know what I mean? Like you have to be vulnerable in order for people to want to participate. It's like the whole Wabi, Sabi kind of like, you know, perfection and imperfection. I think there's, who's that? I don't know like maybe our listeners, all of them would know this artist. He's like the guy who like creates a room with just a hole in the ceiling, right? And you're in this room and it just the sun goes over the room and it when it hits the hole, it creates like this pattern and then as it moves, it creates different patterns and then it goes away. I forgot the artist's name. It's amazing stuff. Okay. Probably the most immersive thing, you know, and awe inspiring thing that requires absolutely no electricity, right? And it works when it's sunny, mate, not work when it's cloudy, but at the same time, it's like a pilgrimage for humans to witness that, right? And it's like, you know, a booth with a lot of screens will never be a pilgrimage for someone, right? It might be kind of like a place to stop. It'll never be a pilgrimage. And I think the reason why it's a pilgrimage is because people like seek out the raw edges, like the, like the something that only one human being could think of. Whereas an LLM is something that a thousand people have thought of before, right? And so like that to me is the real difference between how to create experiences with AI versus like how to create experiences despite AI. I love that. And you kind of started with that, right? Because I think in one of my first questions, you said, yeah, sure. If you like mediocrity, you know, it's like this, you've said it many times. There's this lack of originality that exists. Right. Yeah. And look, me and Copa, I have written LinkedIn posts using an LLM and like changed three words, right? But the reason I did that was like for the medium of a LinkedIn post. I knew I could go. I know. No shame. You know, no shame. Do I mean, it's a repetitive thing. It's kind of a thing that you got to do. You got to stoke the algorithm. And sometimes, you know, a prompt and a question is just enough. But yeah, I would never put that kind of intent, lack of intentionality, so to speak, into a creative expression or a creative endeavor or a creative risk. Sure. And just that that that that like, that debases everything, it debases AI and a debases creativity. All right. Well, listen, I'm going to out myself because here's a person a little anecdote. My husband and I were kind of big on like birthday cards, less on the gifts, more on like write something that you mean to this other person. It's kind of a better thing. And I'll play after so many years, you kind of run out of fresh material. I hear you. I tell you. And so I'll admit this past year, I took to AI, I prompted the hell out of it, you know, gave them all the bits about Nick and it came back with lovely, lovely things to say, which I then wrote in my own handwriting into a card. Dude was bawling his eyes out. You know, I was like, I never told him. I'm sure he probably figured like, well, this one's really coming out of the field, but he was moved. And he's like, okay, I had no idea of your love of M dashes. It's amazing. The way that he looked at me down the path, the dimensional path is extraordinary. Oh, that's cool. But listen, I use AI every day. Like, almost the exact same way that you just, you used it is like explain. Like try to give me an understanding of myself that I might not have and let me be the judge whether I like it or not. I'll be the judge of what I'm not. I'm not sure. Like, that's sort of what it's for. Yeah. No, I mean, we could sit here and go down all these different rabbit holes on like, what's great and how do we use it and where do we get the most value out of it? But anyway, I had to show the story because you kind of outed yourself and I was like, well, I could want to up you there. So, um, definitely a one up, definitely a one up Nick if you're listening. Oh, boy, I wasn't listening to this episode. Shit, I can't do it again. I was the right up to go back to yeah, doing my own thing. But anyway, coming back to our topic and experiences and you know, you mentioned it at some point, like there's, there's that the human piece is real and a lot of folks, even these younger demographics are very wise and very savvy and they can smell bullshit my way. And they reject a lot of things and there will be backlash. And so, you know, one of the biggest ironies I think in this whole AI game is that the more now that AI shows up, the more people are sort of rejecting it and craving those things that feel undeniably human. And so I guess question to kind of close us out. Do you think? How do you think about the future as it pertains? I can't wait to talk to you about it. already as far as like operational value and those types of things. But like how do you see the future of AI? Is it continues to support the growth in experience marketing? You know, you mentioned the kids, the kids, you know, going back to analog. Damn kids, the phones and vintage and vinyl and getting together and basements and all that stuff. So to me, I think that like they are going to be AI native because they're going to use AI to write a business plan or to create a marketing funnel for their, you know, second-hand store business or they're going to, you know, potentially use TikTok tools and Facebook tools and Instagram tools that are totally AI powered to create interesting content, you know, to remix and and use all that. And they're going to actualize themselves, IRL. Whereas, you know, and it's not going to be to certain extent an AI world in my delusional optimism. It's not going to be an AI world. It's going to be an AI power world for IRL experiences and services and little tiny micro businesses and interesting ways of product development, you know, that is super charged to like going from a year to a month. I think there's going to be really interesting hardware that's going to be developed in order to accommodate it. I don't think where it's going to be screen-based and type-based. Who knows what it's going to be. Everyone's betting on voice. I'm not sure. Maybe. Yeah, sure. You know, like I think there's going to be a lot of really interesting gaming and entertainment kind of like verticals that are going to pop out. That there's just going to be different forms of content consumption. And all of that is just more tools, more fodder, more kind of like, you know, paints on the palette to create experiences that humans don't get. And that's our job is to like I think location-based entertainment is going to explode. Right? And I think location-based entertainment is going to explode. Not because people are really hungry for, you know, an immersive van Gogh experience. I think it's because getting to a business plan, getting to a production plan, finding vendors, staffing, paying and deploying is going to get a lot easier because of AI. And so I think there's going to be just an explosion of different ways to experience the world, IRL. And we're here for it, I think. Yeah, we're totally here for it. If I can summarize what you just said, the future feels like it's not about how advanced the AI is. We know there will be advancements and like really cool shit coming, but whether people leave feeling more human than when they arrived, because that's they need that that feeling more than ever. Here here. Oh, that's so that's awesome. Leave more human than you arrived. That's our job. There you go. That's the brief. That's the life for it. I love it. There you go. Now I'm driving. Now we're driving. Wow, didn't we come full circle in this up. That's amazing. Well, Max, always a pleasure to talk to you. Till next time, my friend. Till next time, I'll keep. Take care. Bye. The voice of experience is produced by GMR Marketing, an Omnicom experiential group agency. All content is the property of GMR Marketing. Doing this next time for more knowledge, data, insights and secrets of the art and science of making brands unforgettable. For more information, contact us at GMRMarketing.com.