Hi everybody, we're definitely gonna let you get to the episode soon, but before we do that, we want to share that we are taking the couch on the road. We are going on tour to eight Canadian cities, including North Vancouver on May 9th, Kelona on May 11th, Edmonton on May 13th, Calgary on May 16th, Winnipeg on May 17th, Toronto on May 19th, Ottawa on May 21st, and lastly, Halifax on May 23rd. There will be a live episode recording, a chance to meet other therapists in your area and a Q&A. And the whole thing is sponsored by Jane, our favorite practice management software. Tickets are on sale now and they're going fast so you can snag your ticket from the link on our website edgeofthecouch.com or our Instagram bio at edgeofthecouchpod. We're so excited to meet you in person at the edge of the couch. As you know, at the start of every episode, we take a moment to talk about Jane, and you might be wondering who this Jane is, so let's get right into it. Jane is in a person. Jane is a practice management software that we love and use every single day here on our own private practices. Having a reliable, intuitive, and beautifully designed software has transformed the way we do business and enables us to see clients, manage our business, and grow our clientele at all at the same time. Plus, the name is easy to remember. It's true. We're talking about the awesome online booking that Jane offers and how could be good for your small business. Jane's online booking completely transformed my practice when I began using Jane over six years ago. Enabling online booking allows a client to go in, find the schedule that works best for them, the day that works best the time, book themselves in, and that means that it completely eliminates all of the back and forth emails that I was sending to clients before that, trying to nail down a session time. And it did also really encourage me to set my weekly office hours using Jane's shift feature. So I could know months in advance exactly how much I was going to be working on a Thursday in March. Yeah. And you can always change that. But you know, these are the hours that I work. These are the times that clients can book, and it just saves so much time and energy. Know the back and forth of clients being like, but do you have such and such available? Yeah. Just send them right back to the booking system. It's so easy. So let's talk about why online booking is so helpful for your clients. Some clients may prefer to sit down at home with their phone or calendar and work through your schedule to identify what times work best for them. And while using online booking eliminates all of those back and forth emails for you, it also lends the load on your clients email inbox too. Online booking is also a great way for your clients to book more than one session at a time. If regular and consistent sessions are part of your recommended treatment plan, then you can set your clients up to success by inviting them to book into the future. Once a client is booked in, they'll be brought to their my account page. Think of this as the client's home base where they can see upcoming appointments, your schedule if needed, and fill out intake forms. This can be a quick and valuable way to gather contact information, family and medical history, and consent for your clients. If you've enabled them, clients can opt into the text and email reminders at no cost to you as a practice. So some common reminders we've seen and that I use at my practice are a text reminder 24 hours before an appointment or an email two days before an appointment. This also ensures that clients are going to get a reminder before by 24 hour cancellation policy kicks in. So it really works to also help to ensure that you get fewer late cancellations. Online booking is an effective and simple way to invite your clientele to start booking with you. If you know Jane is the right fit for you and what you need for practice management software, just mention edge of the couch when you sign up for a one month grace period applied to your account. Okay, onto today's episode. Welcome to season four of Edge of the couch. We are here to create a space to delve into the topics that were either shyed away from or dismissed because they were too big, too nuanced, too risky, or too uncomfortable to talk about in school or even supervision. Edge of the couch is not training or supervision. It is for student therapists, new therapists, and therapists wanting to continue to explore their evolving therapist identities and ways of working. When we are talking about clients, please know, we are deeply committed to protecting client confidentiality. We are two passionate therapists and good friends, sharing our personal opinions about the therapeutic process. Come join us at the edge of the couch. Hi everybody. Welcome back to edge of the couch. It's Allison here. I have been waiting for this interview. I am going to let her introduce herself so you can get a sense of who she is and get to know her a little bit. We are joined today on the edge of the couch with Jennifer Holland said. Jennifer, take it away. Hi, thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I am I'm trying not to fan girl too much because I've been listening to all of the episodes and the level of conversations that you have on this podcast is it just really expands the the work. So thank you for everything that you do before I get into my so lovely to hear and for you to say thank you. No problem. It's true. Okay, so for me, yeah, I'm originally I'm a white cis hetero woman originally born in Calgary, which is Trudy Seven Territory and I moved to Vancouver, which is Coast Salish, Slay with Tooth, Squamish, Musqueam, People's Stolen Land. I was ignorant and I think that was state imposed ignorance. And so I randomly I always wanted to help people so I got into psychology and then I got into counseling and there was a lot of parallel process happening in my personal life and in my professional life. Yeah, I had my own sexual trauma history and mental health stuff and I was working alongside clients with similar issues a lot of the time. I slowly started bringing in ideas of like well wait a second how are we expected to heal from sexual violence if we're living in a rape culture like how does this actually work? People, my clients, myself, we started feeling better, more empowered, stronger, less shame when I was bringing in ideas of feminism and social justice in my therapy work and trauma therapy work. I just felt dramatically better, my clients seemed to feel dramatically better, stronger, less shame. So I just started specializing in feminist therapy and eventually I started a practice called Peek Resilience Counseling and it's in downtown Vancouver is where we have an office. It was just me and now there's about 35 counselors on our team and about 12 supervisors on our team because we've been doing a supervision program so that's been fun. The reason why I wanted to go into who I am in a little bit more detail is because I practice from this relational perspective which means I want the people listening to know who they're listening to or talking to or and then they can also be a little bit more informed and make judgments for themselves which I think is really helpful in terms of like being trauma informed. And I learned that from people like Vicki Reynolds and other Indigenous leaders who are always teaching me to slow down and spend more time on introductions and getting to know one another. That's incredible. Well thank you. I think our listeners will really value getting a sense of who you are. I love that. We should do longer introductions. Yeah. Myself as a white woman and that urgency and like go go go and we forget what's actually the most important thing which is humans. I think it would be helpful just speaking about that relational piece to give our listeners a sense of the relationship that you and I have because our relationship has spanned quite a number of years. I don't even know who I would be as a therapist without you. I don't know where I'd be as a supervisor without you and I literally feel so much love for you. Game. Here's a tiny Colesnote version of our relationship. We first met when I was a receptionist at a place where you were renting office space. I was like the little receptionist completing my master's degree and then and just like adored you and thought you were amazing and then one time you and I had like a tiny bit of a longer chat where I kind of informed you like oh I'm also becoming a therapist and you told me all about your history and I just was like so blown away by that. I went back to terrorists. I started my private practice and once I started actually seeing clients and I was about a year in. I really started thinking you know I need to make sure that I'm being held accountable by someone. I need to have connections in some way and you were the first person I thought of when I was like I wonder if Annabelle does a supervision stuff and I reached out and then you are my supervisor from 2016 to like 2021 daily like the same time. If you've been listening to the podcast for a long time and you've heard me say my supervisor didada I was referring to Jennifer and now she's here so it's like a very full circle moment. When you reached out to me I was drenched in imposter syndrome. Wow. I thought who the hell am I this Alson like she seems to really have her shit together like oh my god. It's never ending I don't think imposter syndrome even in so. Totally. We are today talking about supervision which is why our relationship is kind of a cool foundation on which to have the conversation and you are going to be talking about your perspective as a supervisor and your years of experience in doing that and I am going to be I think speaking for the people of our listeners to some degree of what it is like to still be in the space of getting supervision whether that's in practice or in a new practice or in you know experienced practice and really our hope is to have a conversation about what people should be getting out of supervision and should is not a word I like to toss around very lightly but we want to set the bar here for what what supervision can be what should students, new therapists expect from practicum supervisors from supervisors in general in your opinion. At the very least transparency informed consent the ability to give and take feedback a concrete process to address whenever you don't see eye to eye on something. So those are like hopefully structures that that supervisor will have in place but that being said everyone this is just like counseling it's like dating almost you know it's really hard to find the right totally fit and so I think those are kind of like structures that are ideal within that there's going to be a lot of variability. In hearing about people being supervised are there parts of those ideals that are being left out most often or missed or neglected in those relationships? I mean okay so I'll just speak from my bias because that's what I'm uh I got a semi expert in okay so I think one of the biggest things that can be missed in supervision and especially when there's newer supervisors and or institutional involvement of like gotta do this and you gotta do that or else you're not getting this degree or whatever. The piece that I think in intersectional feminist therapy and supervision is that we lose the relationship piece in supervision and we forget how that is impacted by forces of oppression. That's what we try and look at with sort of intersectional feminist therapy in supervision is is not missing out on the forest for the trees kind of thing because an example is like you know a supervisor really wants to do their best job and so they're trying to empower a student but they end up micromanaging a student and making the student feel like they can't do anything. Right right so that's just an example of you know how things can go sideways in what the supervisor wants to do and it's intending to do. The intention is good there but the the action of that doesn't really feel good because microbeaming micromanage doesn't feel good to most people. So now we have a sense of what students should expect we've got these like beautiful ideals that you've laid out for us and so what's the scope of practice in supervision? It took me forever to learn about this and figure out okay why is the word supervision and consultation? Why are they used interchangeably sometimes? Totally. And so supervision from what I have understood is usually when we're referring to having oversight over the person's work right so my license is on your receipts versus consultation. The consultation structure still might look very similar or almost exactly the same as supervision but I'm not on your receipts and I'm not actively looking into your notes and yes right doing all of that extra work that is necessary for gatekeeping in the student world. Even as we're talking like I'm just having flashbacks to some conversations where you have been the person I went to where some very specifically intense things happened for me. I'm sure they weren't red flags as silly as from me as like a clinician but they were big pivotal moments in how I show up as a therapist so it makes sense and there's not that same like licensing responsibility but there is still that like wellness of the client gatekeeping like you're saying. So if a therapist is telling their supervisor or they're the consultant, something that they're doing that is super problematic the consultant does still have to intervene to some degree to minimize that harm that could be getting caused. And even just like I'm hearing the language that we're using. Gatekeeping. Yeah yeah it is a hard sword gatekeeping. Well and like what are we doing? We're holding one another accountable, we're supporting each other in some of the most nuanced, difficult, scary work that people can do. And so I'm always trying to reframe with my team and with anyone it's like the way I see it almost is clinical self-care or we have consult groups at peak for our team and so I call those like clinical community care. Like it's not oversight, it's holding up, it's support. And really I think people are more afraid of the gatekeeping part because that has been used to harm people, people in positions of power and have used that right so. Yes, yeah and as we're speaking like I almost feel a sadness for any of our listeners who have not had that supervisory or consultant experience where they felt held up and that they felt that community because I know so many of our listeners, we get DMs all the time about the experiences people are having in practice come and this is you know where we say like hold on because once you are out and you're away from that and you can connect with a community of consultants or supervisors where you will feel held up like it's a completely different experience than maybe some that they're having right now or that certainly I have had as a student. There's a reality that there are students who go into the program and it just isn't the best fit and so we you know that's fair but I think of supervision as being able to witness someone in some of the most intimate personal difficult mind bending work. Yeah, but witnessing how they bring themselves into that work and then the way that I also see it is helping them celebrate how they're bringing themselves into that mind bending super vulnerable work and if we can do that repeatedly as well as challenge and hate like you need to talk to us. But like if we can really have people go to supervision feeling excited to see their most difficult clients. That's my hope. I love that. We're kind of dovetailing into the next question anyway. I think in some ways which is what does anti-oppressive supervision look and feel like because that is very much the way that you practice in my sense of having been a super busy of yours. So tell us about that and that might be new to some of our listeners. I think the first piece is that we recognize that the actual training and the industry that we are in. There's tons of harmful aspects of that totally. So just recognizing that the things that we have been taught that are the quote-unquote gold standard. It's not anymore. Or it's someone's gold standard but it's someone's agenda and it's someone's reality. But do we want it to be all of our realities? Yes. Right. Number two, I mean so intersectional feminist supervision which I think is very aligned with anti-oppressive. I kind of use those terms interchangeably. We believe that in every single supervision session the three types of people who are involved are transforming. Hopefully in a supervision session where there's a feminist supervisor and a counselor and a client ideally we're focusing on the transformation of that client, right? That's what they're there for. That's the job we got in. It's painful, right? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's the I think bias that a lot of students and a lot of beginning practitioners and people like me get trapped into is like, I got to fix this. I have to fix this. Yes. So if we're fixing someone and if we're focusing on fixing a client that's part of the work. That's, you know, we're brainstorming, hey, what are we missing and what types of therapy theories are helpful here and geeking out incredibly important. If we're not talking about the relationship between the client and the counselor and the relationship between the counselor and the supervisor and then all three and not only talking about the interpersonal relationship but the power structures and the personal social positions of each of those humans. Yeah. If we're really coming from the perspective that all three people or whoever's involved in the supervision process, including the client are going to be transformed, then we know that the supervisor who's coming in is just as open to learning from their the counselor, supervisor, as the counselor is open to learning from the supervisor. I love that. I can see goosebumps. And the idea too is that if we are bringing intersectional feminist ideas or anti-opressive political ideas in, then can't we also change our society as well? Like if we stop internalizing the problems and really start locating them where they're supposed to be. So it's exciting. We can transform the way that we do therapy as not only a means of doing better therapy, however better is measured, but also as a means of like shifting society. And I really believe in that. And I know Jordan does too. Therapy does not exist in a vacuum and that how we are transformed as therapists, as clients, as supervisors by the work sets us up to show up differently in other spaces. Well, one example too, because it's like, well, what does it actually, what does anti-opressive supervision look like? So I was recently doing supervision with someone who had a new client, who had a super long history of pretty acute mental health struggles and hospitalizations and suicidality. And so I was providing supervision and this person was saying, oh, my god, am I good enough for this? Like, can I kind of handle this client? Because the history that was presented of this client was so medicalized. Yeah. And so pathologized that it was very much like, is this client stable enough to be on their own? And when might we have to potentially take away autonomy and what does this look like? And what's the safety plan that we need to instill with this client? And I'm talking to the counselor and I immediately just thought, oh my god, this client is me. Okay. I said, when I had postpartum depression, I think it was a fluke that I didn't go into the hospital. I think there were beds full and they said, nah, you look okay. And we both stared at each other and she's like, oh my god. Yeah. What was I like to hear? I don't know if that was appropriate. Right. A big share. The reason why I'm sharing that, oh my god, that's me is because the feeling that I'm getting from this interaction is that this client has absolutely no abilities whatsoever. Yes. Right. Right. And yet we also know that they're a really accomplished student. They do this. Nah, they are brilliant. They're engaged. And so I was like, yeah, they have really acute mental health problems. But they're also so strong and adaptive. And how are we being kind of distracted? Yeah, sure. By the medicalization of people's mental health and kind of how that means that we work with them. There's almost something here of shifting away from, can I work with this person to something more like, can I be in relationship with this person? And when we ask that question, I think the answer is yes, far more often. I think that thing of like when we pull back the veil and we reveal what is us in our clients, then we realize that that being present in a client doesn't take up all the space. Mm-hmm. That's powerful. And again, listeners, is that the experience you've had in supervision? That realness, having the conversation of how to be in relationship. And another thing too, like I share a lot about my insecurities because we're really trying to challenge the harmful parts of status quo. It's a lot of trial and error. I'll say, hey, what was that like to hear me share that? And then what was the intention of that? I've also gotten feedback that like, no thanks, that's a bit much. Same. Yeah. And so that's where we're finding good supervision with different people because a lot of my colleagues or a couple of my colleagues are absolutely on it. And they don't really go into a lot of their own stuff. Totally. That's fun. It's so interesting too because having been supervised by you for all those years, so much of how you show up in that space has been like obviously absorbed by me because I loved it so much. And so it's how I'm trying to show up when I supervise students now, not that I've done a ton of it, but I'm stepping into that. Having been supported by you through so many tough moments that moments like that don't knock me off center anymore. Yeah. Well, and that's again sort of around anti-oppressive work for me as a white cis hetero for now woman. I've just really looked at how much work I have to do. And so because I really come from a place of like, oh, I probably don't have this right. And like really, like I'm really looking to the women of color on my team and in general in society because of how much I've internalized. And so I can see what I can see, right? I only know what I know. That's where I've really learned a lot in supervision is being challenged. Yeah. And so I think I feel like in terms of expectations, students should expect that their supervisor is okay with being challenged. I feel like that's a human right. I completely agree. That's where I've learned so much as a supervisor. You as a supervisor, I think you are unfortunately a rarity, right? And that there are a lot of supervisors who show up in different ways. They're not going to share any part of themselves with me. I don't see them integrating feedback which we were going to get into. I don't have a sense that I can say, hey, I didn't, that didn't land with me. Because the safety is just not there and the relationship isn't there. And that's where it's like, I love that we're having this conversation so that our listeners can know this type of supervision exists. Mm-hmm. It is out there. Yeah, but I think the reality is that a lot of people have bad supervision. And just to clarify too, there's so many people on my team with different styles that build unbelievable amounts of safety. That they hardly share anything about themselves. That's just their style. But the relationship feels nourishing and connected and aligned. Yeah, an authentic, like you said earlier. Yeah, totally. And that's a great point. It's not the sharing necessarily the equal safety. But it's the those other pieces that develop safety that I think, a lot of supervisory relationships lack. The reason why I share personal things about myself is because I mean, I'm a very privileged white woman. And if I can't be honest about the imperfections under the white supremacy, then who can be honest? Like who can share? And that's really of such a common, and it brings us back to the beginning of our chat. It's such a common feeling and supervision is imposter syndrome. Beautiful. And it's so true. So we're talking about right the experience of supervision through this very specific lens. Because so many of our listeners are in practicums or a new therapist, what level of choice and autonomy do supervisors have in their supervision process? And I mean, I guess in how can practicumsites leverage choice? Yeah. Supervisies. We don't have a lot of flexibility. Great questions. We've been really working on our practicum program at peak and trying to tweak things. There's pros and cons about having a bigger practice. Sure. One of the pros is we have been able to say, often times to practicum students, who would you like to see for supervision? Hey, do you want to consult with them first to see how they are? And then you can pick and you know hard feelings. That's incredible. Yeah. So actually just giving students the choice of supervisors apparently was like revolutionary? I have never ever heard that or spoken with a student who has had that experience. So that's incredible. Yeah. And that's what we're working on too and our with our site is like we have like and a lot of sites do this now but have the finding the right counselor kind of form where yes, get mad. Well, we're going to do that with supervision too so that it's like, hey, I want someone with this type of personality who's available in evenings and who does this modality. That's amazing. That would be great. That would be great. When it comes to actual like, you know, supervision programs in the schools, the place that I get excited about is we work with various different schools as obviously supervisors as a practicum site. And so that's one of the things that we try to do is advocate for the student counselor on what's important and what's not important and all of that sort of stuff. That's amazing. My experience in going into practicum has been, hey, do you want to apply to this site? If you get it, this person's your supervisor. You know, you read like a little paragraph about them and then you either choose to apply to the site or not. And I think this is why Jordan and I in so many other episodes we talk about ways to be like in resistance within practicum to show up in ways that are not going to get you in trouble. Like you're not going to get kicked out of your practicum site because if the ultimate goal is to graduate then that is not what you want to do necessarily. But to find ways to rebel, to ask questions in a way that feel really authentic to you when you're with clients, to think about how this is only temporary. And you know, even like thought resilience is so powerful or resistance, you know, to say, my supervisor is telling me to do it this way. I have to do it that way, but I'm not going to always do it that way. And even that is so powerful because students, a lot of autonomy is kind of stripped from them when they start practicum often, unfortunately. Yeah, it's, there are things in that process that continue to make sense, right? Like I remember like basically having it hammered into me to knock-talk and just listen and don't talk about yourself. And like very very, as a new therapist. New therapist baby, you know. Yes, sure. I get it, but there are a lot of parts of the training that can be improved and be more kind of trauma informed and, yeah, impressive. Maybe as we are all graduating and then we are stepping into being supervisors that we begin to be that shift. And again, some supervision sessions are going to be where you are bumping up against each other and you're triggering one another and you are miscommunicating. And so the hope, and again, this is all about relationship, the hope is that you might have a really amazing supervision session where you were crying in supervision and it was about the relationship, but that there was like authentic conflict resolution and reciprocal energy between the supervisor and the student. Sometimes a supervision session is going to take us to a place that's really tender and we might cry and it might feel really frustrating and that is it, but purposeful, right? Like that there's a sense of like, oh, this is my growing edge and that's why I feel so uncomfortable. Yeah, but I want to talk a little bit or want to hear you talk a little bit about finding the balance between like the comfort and validation towards, you know, your students and new therapists, supervisors who are supervising and the like challenge and holding accountable that we've talked about. Yeah, okay, tell me what the "Urch" is. The "Urch" is the programming that I have internalized my entire life as a white woman to be nice and avoid conflict and it's generational. And so I actively have to be undoing my people pleasing tendencies as a supervisor and as a supervisor of supervisors. Probably the most consistent feedback that I've gotten from my team, like over the years, various types is that they want more critical what can I do better? Totally. And it's interesting because when I'm sharing what they're doing well, we're also talking about different ways to improve that work. But I'm kind of like hiding the medicine in compliments and people think this feels too good and interesting. And so and that being said, it's like kind of my strength but also my weakness. So it's a line where I feel so much attachment and connection with most people I supervise. So then I really have to curb my, I don't know if you want to call it trauma bonding or whatever, but I really have to curb my, you're so great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So interesting. What is this like to hear, you know, post-mortem after we've like stopped working together? It's like, oh my god, this is what you was thinking. Well, it's wonderful because now I hear it as a person who has done supervision. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, totally. And then I flashed back to being a new therapist when I am just as a personality and as a learner, a very like tell me how it is, like tell me what is wrong. But I do have memories that are now very powerful and important to me of moments where you challenged me that stung in the moment. Sweet. I mean, not sweet. But yeah, well, it's good because I learned a lot. Yeah. I remember specifically a question that you would often ask me when I would say something like, well, the client said this and it would be kind of about me and you would say, well, how much of that is true about you. And I remember at the time being none of it. All made up on their end. And then like over days, I would sit with that question and it would sink and sink and sink. And then I would go, oh shoot, okay, this is a bit my thing too. And you would say it so beautifully and so lovingly. And there was no edge to it. It was really helpful. Yeah, well, and that's where when we're coming from a place of like moving towards always sharing an equal amount of power in our relationship. Yeah. I hope that I communicated repeatedly how many mistakes I have made. And how many, right? And so when we look at things like this and when I ask questions like that that are kind of challenging, it really is coming from that like, oh, classic. Like, you know, we all do it. Right. So it's like we're in it together as opposed to I know everything as the supervisor. Yes. And you will eventually get to my level, but you are not there yet. So yeah, even as you say it, like I just think, yeah, we're talking about the relationship. We're talking about the importance of it. We're talking about our relationship with which is in my opinion has always felt really safe. What about when you just really don't feel close and connected to your supervisor at all, or like we're saying there isn't that safety? I think solidarity with your classmates is huge. Yes. Comparing notes so that you don't feel alone. Like is this just supervision for everyone? Or what's going on behind closed doors over there? Really encouraging transparency and communication and sharing. Yeah. Because yeah, like there are structural power pieces in place that are really, really hard to get around. And I know have been traumatic for a lot of people. And like that's kind of why we started our practicum program. There were a couple of folks on my team who are like, we're starting a practicum program because we're doing it differently. Because my experience was horrific. So just like knowing that if you're having an experience where you're not feeling supported, it could be you. It could be the supervisor. But just know that you got to talk to someone ideally. Yeah. It's so true. I think about the moments where I, you know, you take that little, that vulnerability risk. Can you say like, I'm actually not having a great experience with my supervisor. And then it like opens the floodgates of other people are then saying like, oh my gosh, me neither or this is what's happening. It is so much better. But I think that there's shame and embarrassment. Like it's such an interesting thing, even though it's not the student necessarily. There's a, can be a sense of like, shame and embarrassment that they're having a bad experience. I don't know. I, you know, and that they're not getting the supervision that they want or they, it seems like everyone else is having a great time. And they're at. Yeah. I think silence is some people. Absolutely. Totally. And my EMDR training brain is like, what's the belief about yourself in that situation, right? If you're having a bad experience and you feel shame about that, why do you think that is? Yeah. Man, you were hitting close to home. Yeah. Just the yesterday I said, is it me? Yeah. I keep having these experiences with me. So there you go. Yeah, some of what you need to think about. Exactly. In your practice, like let's just start there because your practice is, you know, what we're talking about, like the ideal and the aspirational here in terms of how you show up as a supervisor. What is the process of giving feedback to a supervisor? The process is whatever you agree on what it is in the relationship, right? Like you talk about, I'm going to support you in your supervision of so and so. So what are we doing here? What are your goals? What feedback are you hoping to get? First, we set the scene of like specifically the person coming for supervision. What do they want? Yes. And how are they going to leave supervision making sure that it was a success for them? And that's where it's hard because it's really practitioner-led, right? And so when it's a student program and it's a university and the students don't have a ton of autonomy, they are forced to get supervision. There are pros and cons to that. But then when you get licensed, it really is driven by your own desire to look at your work. Yeah, I'm yourself and there's people who don't do that. If you've listened to our podcast, you know that we are like every therapist, you know, needs supervision. We are huge, huge advocates for continuing to stay in that procedure or however we name it throughout the entirety of your work as a clinician. Because there's so much growth that keeps happening. Like the growth doesn't stop the minute you graduate, hopefully. Yeah. I think of supervision and I mentioned this before, like clinical self-care or clinical community care, but also burnout prevention. Obviously, there's a piece of, you know, if you want to say risk management, to ensure that you're having someone a second set of eyes and ears. Also just like how sad is it if you're never being witnessed? Because it's so cool the work that everyone is doing, right? Like in their unique little ways with their own experience, lived experiences. And I just think about how energized I feel when I get a chance to talk about the work that I'm doing. And maybe not everyone feels that, so I shouldn't assume, but I do. And I feel very energized when I go into clinical consultation or peer consultation. It makes me like the work more. Because maybe it helps to prevent burnout, which is real. And because it just reminds me about what's fun about therapy. Yeah, there's someone on my team. We have a Friday morning consult and I just love this human. They know who they are. And they say, why do I always have to come to the Friday morning consults? Because that's like right into my weekend. And there's some people who get to go right into therapy. And they're all jacked up off of the consult group. And I just have to go into the weekend just like spinning with excitement. Yes, that Monday session. Yeah, but it is really cool to see when I go into a supervision session. Like a one on one or if we have a group supervision or consultation session, more often than not, obviously not every single time. But we come in and we're like a little low energy. And like we've got a gazillion things on the go. And we're pulled in a million different directions. And at the end of the session, we feel grounded and hopeful. We have options and we have power. And that's for me as a supervisor too. Yes, right. So I'm not just talking about, oh, like I'm providing that to a counselor. That's a supervisor. No, no, no, when you reached out for me and I have to stop everything in my own life to sit with you and provide that supervision, I am transforming with you. Yes. And this loops back to so much of what you showed at the beginning, which is allowing yourself to be impacted by your supervisors. There's people who I've supervised where they have different lived experiences than me. And I'm totally out of my element. Like people who come from devout religious backgrounds or people, like just a variety of experiences that I've never had. And it's a real opportunity to open ourselves. Yes. And for me, especially as someone with a whole bunch of positions of privilege, like every supervision session for me in terms of anti-oppressive supervision is an opportunity for me to look at how I'm unintentionally oppressing people. Like it's an opportunity for me to look at my accountability. It's a beautiful way to think about the relationship too. And side note, it's a lot of work. And we also say at peak, we're like, you know what? It would be nice to maybe just not think about all the intersections for a second. Yeah. You know, it's hard work and it's life giving and life affirming, but wow. It's never ending in terms of unlearning our biases. And I think, I mean, this is an all-wrestling because a lot of student therapists come to their programs with a ton of lived experience. And I think a lot of new therapists, it's like a muscle you have to work. And early on, it can feel really exhausting, like a swell sheet exhausting. Because it's new and it feels really new and it feels tender and hard, right? Like all of the things. So this is where it let who is guiding you and who is with you is so important because it is really hard work and it is really tender. When you have a supervisor who can hold that space for you, normalize the tenderness and the difficulty. It's just a completely different experience than one that doesn't acknowledge it, or one that won't even acknowledge intersectionality in any capacity. Yeah, and it's so cool to hear you talk about that because I'm now at a different stage of pooping my pants over different things. Sure, right? And I remember being a newer counselor, not yet having sort of like the muscle memory, yes, so that I could start doing the interrogation of my own personal BS. If you're a beginning brand new counselor, you're literally trying to learn what the hell you're doing and how you're also going to potentially fuck it up by just being yourself. It's a lot. It's a lot. Like no pressure. It's scary. Yeah. It's so scary. Yeah, and so that's why it can be really cool and helpful to have a supervisor who's kind of in there with you and they're looking at their own insecurities and their own growing edges. As supervisors hypothetically and ideally, we're going to hopefully be the nest. And we're going to just be like, okay, buddy, you know, you're going into that session. I know your story is. My name is. Yes. Not only providing the support and the compassion, but then saying, you really get to work on your people pleasing, for example. And holding accountability as well as compassion. Yeah. It is a delicate balance. And I find it even more delicate to, and what I'm fascinated about is providing supervision, knowing that most people in our field have mental health problems or pieces of things that they need accommodations for. I think the last time that I had supervision with you was about me, a supervisor. You were supervising me as a supervisor and learning about how to accommodate for various needs of supervisors, medical issues. That intersection of ableism is so present here that like, what is my expectation as a supervisor about my supervisor's cancelling sessions? What do I think about that? I don't know. Yeah, I'm still working on it. Exactly. It's tricky. Yeah, it's tricky and it's good that it's tricky. It's good that we're, you know, talking through the trickiness and just being open to that there's not necessarily any clean and clear answers. Either way, this is why supervision is so valuable because I think when we're trying to navigate the messiness on our own, that's where we can really make very harmful mistakes. We can still make harmful mistakes even when we're getting supervision. But when we try to like work at, because we just swirl, right? We swirl on our own stuff. We swirl on our own bias. We have blinders on. And the second that we can speak to someone who maybe has a bit more experience in us or has worked in this thing differently. And they can slow us down to look at it. I just think we make more sound decisions when it comes to how we work with our clients and how we work with our supervisors. Absolutely. And even, like, that's what I love about group supervision or consultation as well. Because we were just in a group consultation the other day and we have a brand new practicum student. Rachel, shout out. I said something about domestic violence and safety planning and things we have to be thinking about. And then she brings something up that I had never even considered. Rachel coming out the gates, right? Like, we're all learning from one another. It gives me goosebumps. Makes me want to cry to be honest. I'm not going to, but I want to. Which is just like, you were just such a heart centered, like heart first person. It's so beautiful and amazing. Thank you. Is there anything else? I mean, we've talked about such rich stuff. Is there anything else that you want to say as we come near the end of our conversation? I want people looking for supervision and seeing what's out there. My hope is that they access supervision that affirms their humanity while they're doing this work. And so that doesn't necessarily mean cancel on every single client because you're always sick and you don't have to have any accountability because you have chronic illness. No. It's like, I'm a counselor with chronic illness. Holy shit. What does this mean for my informed consent? What does this mean for how I navigate my relationships with clients and how it impacts them? Anyways, so I love the work because I think it's transformative for everyone. Especially when we open ourselves to being changed by our clients and by our supervisors. That's where, oh, it's just such a wonderful thing. And that's where the new generation and new students and new counselors, that is the future. And so if we're not learning from them, what are we doing here? Totally. Thank you so much. Thank you. This is such a great conversation. Like talk about energized. Where can people find you? Well, peak-resilience.com is our website. It's a beautiful website. Thank you. It's tweaking it and trying to make it more user-friendly and everything. And then we have Instagram, peak-resilience. We're putting out more courses and events through event-bright just because it's so easy peasy. So stay tuned for those. You've a newsletter. Yeah, our resilience report. I love it. It's a breath of fresh air of things that will help you feel resilient when, like, I don't watch the news anymore because it doesn't help me feel resilient. Yes, sure. Yeah. So that's where people can find me. And my email is
[email protected]. I'm open. Yeah. I'd love to chat more. Are you looking for new people to supervise? Supervisors to supervise? Oh, yeah. Because I imagine you're very full. Well, I am absolutely looking for new people to supervise. More specifically, I think what we're wanting to do is to have a better matching program for people wanting supervision. So if people are interested in supervision at peak resilience, they can email supervision at peak-resilience.com and say, "Hey, I'm just interested. Who do you think would be a good fit for me?" And we'll start the process because it might be me. But it might be someone else on our team, someone who has, for example, actively chosen a child-free life or someone who, you know, just someone with a different lived experience. Wonderful. So if you're interested in supervision, we have an amazing resource here. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. And I don't know. I'm sure there's a gazillion things that I've forgotten to say. I want to shout out to a few people though that I follow. Okay. Great. Mira DeBar is a local counselor who has finished or finishing her dissertation on queering therapy. And we've talked a lot about queering supervision. Cool. And so she does really, really cool work. Mira DeBar is her name. I can send you the links. Vicki Reynolds is the one who I look to all the time in terms of social justice work. She's amazing. Yeah. And then on TikTok, I learned a lot. TikTok's amazing. Yeah. Great. Have you seen Gigi's therapy world? I live in the same town, I'm familiar, but I'm so bad at remembering the names on TikTok. Or Gigi's therapy world is unbelievable in terms of anti-oppressive work. And then honeybee Brewer is all about care and control. So care and control is where we care and control our own. Oh, we care and control. I thought we care and control. We're controlling our care and race in the community. And as white women, it's our job to control the care and. Oh, okay. Yeah. So anyways, I could go on. But that, you know, just be open to learning about things that are different. Even if they make you uncomfortable, maybe especially if they make you uncomfortable. Exactly. Yeah. Anyways, thanks a lot. Thanks Jennifer. Hey there. This is Alex from the Jane team. Jane is a thoughtfully designed practice management software with features like one-on-one telehealth, customizable email and text reminders, intuitive scheduling, and more. So being part of Jane means so much more than the features I've listed here. It also means that you've joined a much bigger community, a community of dialogue with other small business owners through our community forum, access to live webinars, and a support team who's obsessed with showing you all the solutions that Jane has to offer. So come say hi at Jane.app/mentalhealth. We'd love to meet you and see if Jane is the right fit for your practice. Thanks for listening. We'd love to hear from you. Send us an email at
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