What You Can Do Legally To Provide For Your Pets! | SOP Ep. 119 - Attorney Nolan James

Welcome to Speaking of Pet, I'm Dr. Alice Navati-Jeroman, a board certified veterinary dermatologist, and I'm not. I'm Janet Navati-King, the doctor's sister, podcast co-host, pet owner, rescuer, and lover. We're here to provide pet owners with science-based information to help them be the best pet parents they can be. Here's today's episode, "Create Adjust for You and Your Pets." Hey everyone, welcome to the show. I am hosting solo today because my lovely co-host, Janet Navati-King, kind of had a little dental work and she's got the, you know, the cold pack on there and all the nobicans. So we're, um, she's got a doctor's excuse for today. Anyway, you all know that I volunteer at SilverSnow, Senior Dog Rescue, and let me tell you, the majority of those little senior geriatric dogs that are there are there because their owners either went into the hospital, went into hospice, or unfortunately passed away, and thought that relatives would take care of their beloved pet. Well, I'm here to tell you, the majority of time that doesn't happen. So I've invited Nolan James, my favorite attorney, to come on today and help us prepare for, if something would happen to us either fatally or just going into the hospital, what have you? What can we do to protect our pets? And just real quick, a few things about Nolan, he is a university of Akron grad, yay. And I dug, yeah, it goes in, it's right. I don't want to embarrass him, but according to the Cleveland Business Journal, he is one of the people on the move in Cleveland, Ohio. So welcome to the show, Nolan James, happy to have you here today. Thank you, Alice. Thank you, Alice. Yes. I think you don't have a very issue by that, but I just think it's a fun thing. Absolutely. Yeah, so on the move, you know, but I tell people I'm easy to find, right? That's right. That's right. Yeah, I appreciate that you inviting me here to have a little chat. So thank you, Alice. Now, having said that about these seniors, and I can tell you, Nolan, it's so traumatic for these little old dogs to be away from their owners that slept in bed with them and, you know, had wonderful care. And now they're in a place with barking dogs and, and thankfully, our rescue takes them out of that environment, but it, but we need to have a few tips on what we can do, like, in our will or in our trust. What can we do? Like what is the number one thing you would recommend? Sure. Like, I have two dogs. Yep. What happened to me? Absolutely. So, Alice, you framed it, you know, perfectly, right? And I think you've experienced it, but most people don't know, and they don't really think about it the way that you're experiencing it. So most pet owners would agree and they consider their pets to be family, but, you know, from a legal perspective, pets are treated as property. So because of that, you have to plan, and it, it's kind of crude to think about, you know, planning for pets the same way you would plan for other property, but you have to kind of plan for pets the same way that you would plan for property, subject to a lot of different nuances, right? So, you know, when you ask kind of the biggest thing that someone can do, you know, think about what happens, not only if I die, but what if I just get, you know, hurt, and I'm not at home when I'm hurt, right? So having a written plan, ideally having that written plan prepared by someone like me, but at a minimum, you know, writing down the plan, making sure that you've got, especially as people get older, you know, having a little card in your wallet that says, hey, I have, I have a pet at my house, right? This is my home address. This is the pet at my, that will reside, that resides at my home. And oh, by the way, phyto sleeps in my bed and is terribly afraid of thunderstorms, right? Like, whatever, those little things, right? That's kind of the basic stuff, but there's a lot of other things that I'm sure we'll talk about today that, you know, we can kind of touch on because the biggest risk like you mentioned, you know, if you don't plan your pet going up in some sort of shelter, right? And they're, they're accustomed to sleeping in your bed every night and eating the food that you prepare. They're used to your routine, right? Pets experience anxiety just like humans do, right? So if you want to alleviate that anxiety, putting a plan in place, building a team, and your team is, you know, your family, but talking to your family, right? A lot of people just assume, well, you know what? My kids love the dog, they're, if something happens to me, they're going to figure it out. Well, you know what? Because they love the dog, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're capable, right? Of actually being responsible for the dog, it doesn't mean that they've got the financial wear with all to care for the dog as that dog ages, right? And healthcare costs for animals, just like humans, they get more expensive as that animal ages as well. You know, I said a lot, but the first, I'll, I'll synthesize it a little bit and to say, the first thing you've got to play in, you've got to think through kind of some of the basics, right? The who? And then we can talk about kind of the legal mechanisms that we've got in place that can kind of help people, um, play them for their, their animal when, when the time comes. Today's episode is sponsored by Dr. Tim's pet food. Learn more at DrTim's.com. Well, you know, one day, um, after, after my husband and I updated our trust with you recently, I didn't think about it, but when you have a will or a trust, you kind of forget what you said in that. And on that same note, people's circumstances change. You might be leaving your dog to your daughter. And you thought about that two years ago, but now your daughter has an infant. And maybe your dog isn't good around children, or maybe now your cat is diabetic. And like you said, it's a great idea to carry in your wallet. Okay, this is fluffy. She needs insulin once a day. This is her vet with the vet's number because as a vet, I can tell you, we've come to the rescue of many, uh, dogs that were in situ, dogs and cats that were in situations like that. Right. I think it's a great idea to update, they was even maybe from two years ago. Absolutely. Absolutely. No, I agree. I think things should be on that. So certainly updating things regularly. And I think it's good to take stock of decisions that you've made annually, right? So if you have a state planning documents in place, it's, it's a good process to just look at them and think about them and think through whether these plans that you made, you know, a year ago still makes sense. And if they need to be tweaked slightly, tweak them, that's, that's okay. I mean, I think the other thing that's important is to make sure that every plan has, you know, a backup, right? So, you know, we, we plan for fluffy to be cared for by our daughter. But what if our daughter, um, you know, something happens to her? And if she has some sort of injury and can't care for the dog or decides that she just doesn't want to, well, who's the backup, right? And who's the backup to the backup? So having these cover stations and coming up with as detailed of, you know, instructions and, and kind of contingency plans as humanly possible. That's, that's certainly, you know, the best approach. And then mentioning kind of your unique role as of that, I mean, I often tell you that are kind of on the front, on the front line with knowing whether, not only the, how the pets doing, but how the humans doing too when you see someone bring in their pet for, um, you know, a routine checkup, maybe engaging those conversations, you know, hey, are you doing okay? And it's, it's, it's kind of delicate to broach that, but, you know, listen, if, if the human isn't doing great, it's more important to make sure that that human has gotten their affairs in order to make sure that they're not going to have this animal just end up in limbo, right? We often actually, it's funny you said that Nolan because that actually happened to me. I was friends with an elderly couple as most of my clients became my friends and the gentleman passed away the husband and the wife had a lingering lung disease and they had a little poodle and she, they had a daughter and she said, Dr. Alice, I, I really would, I want something happens to me. I've put it in my will that I want you to take care of the dog and, and, and so every, like every six months, she'd give me an update, but I have to tell you the funny thing about this, yes, one time I was at the specialty hospital and I walked in and there was this screaming, these two poodles were just, you couldn't even hear yourself things there, however, and I thought, oh my gosh, who was that? Well, it was those people. It was my life. Oh, wow. I'd like to think it was my husband, you know, because we have these dogs here that never bark. Right. The two puddles, the one that was being left to me. It was the big mouthy one. But anyway, that's a very weird start. But you're absolutely right. We as veterinarians, we do know, I remember having a young man in. He was single, kind of a loner, and he had a dog that received a medication, a long-acting medication by his regular vet, and had an adverse reaction to it, and the dog really never came out of it and the dog died. - Plot. - And I was very worried about, this is kind of the opposite of what we're talking about. I was very worried about this man. I mean, I think I called him every day to see how he was doing, because this dog was everything to him. - Right. - Right. - I knew he planned for that dog's future, but sadly, the dog couldn't plan for his future, because I really thought he was going to commit suicide. I really did. So it kind of works both ways, really, when you look at him. - It does, and you know, so you kind of touched on something too. And a lot of people think about, you know, planning for pets, you know, I need to have some language in my will, or I need to set up a pet trust. You know, to do it appropriately, you kind of need to think about your pet in a lot of different estate planning buckets, right? So think about, you know, what do you want to happen if you are, you know, permanently disabled, right? So that's not necessarily going to need to be in a trust document. That could be in a healthcare power attorney, or could be in a durable financial power attorney. You can have language that, you know, provides for care of your pet. I would say between those two, the best place would certainly be the durable financial power attorney, frankly, in the event that, you know, someone is still living, and they want to provide, you know, financial wear with all, but they also want to provide authorization for someone who doesn't have, you know, custody or legal title against this property, pets or property, legal title to a particular pet. They want to make sure that there's language in their durable financial power attorney that, you know, a designated caregiver of this pet can resume care and can use funds to, you know, pets or whatever the pet may need. The other thing that people want to think about putting into these actual pet trust documents is, you know, what types of care do we want these animals to have towards the end of their lives, right? That's kind of the other thing, right? Just like humans as we're nearing the end of the life, what degree of care, how do we define excessive care, those types of things as well? So we want to see what you mean, right? It's possible with that as well. Like, do they want to say, okay, so I pass away and Sandy takes my dog to the vet and is she, did I want her to say, I want you to do everything possible to save this pet as opposed to if it's a terminal disease euthanasia? I see what I never, what about that? Exactly, so you want to be as specific as possible. And a lot of times when I meet with clients and we're dealing with pets, and every pet is different, and every animal's different, you know, there's exotic animals, there's horses, there's birds, and, you know, we dealt with tortoises. Things that, you know, have these longer lifespans, it gets a lot more complicated to, you know, make sure that we're planning for the financial, wherewithal, you know, for that animal. Certainly, you know, making sure we have contingencies for where those animals are going to be housed, right? In the event that we run through the people that we think about, we see it a lot when we're planning for horses in particular. There are certain boring facilities that owners are like, in no way, when I ever want my horse there, right? So we just need to know, because me is the planner, you know, I'm not a horse expert, so I don't know the difference between one boarding facility and another. I just know where my clients live, and I can make some recommendations based on places that are not too far. And so, you know, the clients and the pet owners are the experts in this situation with respect to, you know, the type of care that they want their animal to receive. And obviously in consultation with their veterinarian providers. But, you know, that's kind of another thing. We just want to make sure that, you know, pet owners are thinking through it. What about money? Do you advise people to leave a certain amount of money because you don't know how long this pet's going to live? Sure, sure. Yeah, I mean, you certainly should. And I think it's probably a good idea to consult with your vet to help you know what, you know, the idea of care costs will be certainly consult with your financial advisor so that, you know, you can make sure that, you know, you're able to care for your own needs towards the end of your life. And I'm not setting aside way too much for your pet, but yeah, I'm what your pet would actually need. And then the other thing, some folks, you know, do go a little overboard with respect to leaving too much. And Ohio courts, and I can speak to Ohio courts in Florida, of course, some license in both Ohio and Florida. They, they will apply reasonableness standards to what's left for pet. So if you do leave an excessive amount, you know, courts can interpret a pet trust document in the event that a party petitions the court and asks the court, you know, to do so. You know, there's a, there's that Leona Helmsley needs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was tested, wasn't it? It was contested. So, you know, in that case, Leona Helmsley left, you know, to think it was 12 million bucks or her, what type of dogs did she get? What was the remember? I thought it was like a sheet sewer or something, but I could be wrong. We'll call it a sheet sewer, but they were fake. I think the dog was trouble. The dog's name was trouble, to trouble. So there she left 12 million to, to trouble in a pet trust. And she disinherited some other family members. Those family members kind of petitioned the court and said that, you know, this gift was excessive to a dog. And the court did agree that it was excessive and they reduced the amount of funds left to trouble or left for the care of trouble to $2 million. And ultimately, the remainder, so the excess over that $2 million ended up flowing into her charitable foundation that she said to you. So it didn't go to the people that petition now. Yeah, now I will say those individuals that petition did end up getting funds that they otherwise wouldn't have gotten. There was some settlement involved in there and some other course trading pun intended, right? Yeah, that's what happened in that particular case. So that was a New York case. But so I would say, course generally, do apply a reasonableness standard to what you're leaving. So certainly consult with, you know, your professionals, financial advisors, that to make sure that whatever you're leaving is defensible, right? Otherwise, funds may go someplace that you don't necessarily intend to go. What happens when, say I have pet insurance and it's my name protecting my fluffy, and then I pass away or I'm in hospice. And so, you know, in my neighbor, I put in my will for them to take the dog. Does the pet insurance ownership need to change? Or does that, you'll stay for that pet? Here's something we love about Dr. Tim's pet food. Every formula starts with a question. Does this actually help the animal? Not just look good on a shelf. Dr. Tim has spent decades as a working vet and that experience shows up across the entire product line. Whether your dog is a little overweight and needs a healthy balanced food to help shed a few pounds or could be a picky eater who won't touch their breakfast without Dr. Tim's vagabond freeze-dried toppers or just a regular couch companion who deserves real nutrition in every bowl. Speaking of pets is committed to bringing you science-based information and partners that align with that mission. And Dr. Tim's is a great example of nutrition done right for every pet, not just the athletic ones. Head to Dr. Tim's pet food to find the formula that fits your pet's life. - So if you purchase a, and I just wanna make sure I'm understanding the question correctly. So you purchase a pet insurance policy and is it, you know, and I know that there's pet insurance that covers veterinary costs and there's also-- - Yes, for veterinary costs. - Okay, for veterinary costs. So you purchase pet insurance for a particular pet. I mean, at the end of the day, every policy is written differently. So that's, it's important to understand how that policy is written. Typically, if a policy is written for a specific pet and so long as those premiums are being paid, if the language of that policy indicates that it's transferable and it's contingent upon premiums being paid, then your debt wouldn't necessarily, you know, cause any major issue or interruption on that policy still being enforced. along as those premiums were. we're paid. Yeah. So you think then through these people getting pet insurance because there's an explosion of pet insurance companies that when they're signing this, that they should be sure that it is transferable to a new owner, but it's the same dog should something happen to you. Correct. You should. But the other thing with these pet insurance, you know, you want to make sure that your desire providers are going to accept that that policy. I don't think it just, it just gives you the owner cash. I think there's likely conditions on, you know, these are the providers you can go to. And this is what, you know, your coverage will provide for. And these, these certain procedures are excluded. So certainly doing doing the math and making sure that what you're intending the policy to do will actually work for you. And you're not going to come out of pocket for funds that you didn't anticipate. So I think that they're certainly, you know, when you're thinking about buying any type of insurance, you know, you want to make sure you understand the language and the policy you want to understand what's excluded and you want to understand the limitations of that policy as well. And make sure that, you know, whatever coverage you think you have is what you actually have. So what about confidentiality? Say, say a neighbor goes into hospice and I know they have a pet and they don't have any other family, but I do know that you're their attorney. Can I call you and say, Hey, I'm Mrs. Smith neighbor. And there's a dog there. Can you check her? I don't know if this permitted will or trust and see if there's any provision for this pet. I mean, correct. So if you if you are talking to your neighbor or trying to just put someone on alert about, you know, the dog or the animal, you know, I certainly would be unable to disclose specifics regarding their estate plan. You, but I think you as the concern neighbor, you know, should reach out to anyone that you know that knows something about this individual who was either disabled or in the hospital. If there's an animal involved. So even if there isn't language, you know, there are other things that, you know, folks can do in the absence of a plan and a state planning attorney is certainly in a really good position to know who the next of kin is to then reach out to the children to make sure that they're aware of certain issues. But yes, neighbors, friends, you know, whether it's, you know, someone at your church, to the extent you become aware of someone who is a pet owner and their health is declining. It's not a bad idea to kind of reach out to those that you know are their trusted advisors to help, you know, put them on alert and start, you know, working through this process. Now the in an ideal scenario, that individual did, you know, some planning, right? And at least talk to people, you know, to make sure that, you know, there are individuals that are ready to step up. But I tell clients, you know, hope is not in the state plan, right? Yeah, just because you hope that the kids will figure it out, right? That's not a state planning, right? We hear that far too often and especially with pets. Well, and you know, kids have their own lives, their own interests. It's just like now when you save, like maybe you have some antique furniture, kids don't want that. They don't have a battery bar and stuff, you know, exactly. So you can't force what you like under other people and and to think that, you know, people that busy lives now and and I just think that planning is is so important. I just picture that EMTs are going into a household where a widow lives and she's got this little poodle and they have to take her to the hospital. And there's this dog left behind. I mean, I'm thinking maybe EMTs when they get to the hospital would contact social services or something of that nature. They may, they may. And you know, ideally, ideally, if they do, you know, the next of kin is alerted and the next of kin says, Hey, I've got good news mom planned, right? And I know where mom's planning is. And that plan includes, you know, dieted feeding routines for for this little poodle. And the veterinary preferences, it includes the medications that this poodles on includes all the grooming habits that we've done. And the behavioral notes, right? Like again, I mentioned before, the most, you know, common thing we see as dogs being afraid of thunderstorms, right? But if that happens to be, you know, the case, you know, that that's that's kind of something that we'd want in the plan. And then, you know, there's an, oh, by the way, beyond just this information, there's money that's left, right? For the care for the kind of handle these things because mom, mom did everything, right? So that's high, you know, and it really isn't, it isn't overly onerous to put in place a plan and flood your plan. So, you know, that's one of the most common misconceptions that it's a lot of work. It's a lot of money. But if you love your pet, you know, you really want to take the time and and spend a little bit of money making sure that there's a plan in place. You know, I don't see this much anymore, but early on in practice, we would have an occasional client that would say, and this is horrible, in my opinion, if something happens to me, I want the dog or cat put down because I don't think anyone could take care of this pet as well as I do. And as a veterinarian, I would never put a pet down for reasons like that. Right. And so I'm just curious, as a veterinarian, if I had any defense against that, if they had already put something on paper that said that, I know, so unfortunately, it goes back to what we said in the very beginning. And, you know, I don't want to give you more work, Alice, to start lobbying, you know, your lawmakers, but pets are property, right? And that's the way that's the way it is right now. And people can decide what they want done with their property upon their passing, right? That's the way, you know, the Ohio statutes are written, pets are still property. Ohio statutes do, you know, obviously, recognize pet trust and the ability to provide for pets in a pet trust. But yeah, unfortunately, you know, there really isn't the ability for you as the, you know, veteran veterinarian to kind of override that, override that, unfortunately, to say, hey, you know what, this pet has a lot of, you know, life left. And if I get involved, can, you know, can intervene now, what I would say, to the extent you become aware of those wishes, prior to the death of that individual, then you've got the ability to, you know, maybe give them another thought, right? Maybe think about this, right? So something. Well, and you're right because maybe the few people that they have, the few relatives are pet people, you know, and I can tell you, I've seen some of these senior dogs that were discarded, were lack of a better word for whatever reason. They come into a second life and they're happy. So for someone to think that no one could give that pet a better life than what they have, I dispute that. I agree. Because I've seen it. Right. I agree. Yeah. And I would say oftentimes, the people who think that the life that they're giving their pet, if they ultimately feel that the best thing to do is to euthanize that pet because no one else can give this pet a better life. There probably are a lot of people that could give the pet a better life than they've got already. That's probably the reality. That's just a guess. That's not a legal opinion. That's my first. Right. Right. So and also the person that, so if I find a stray dog, okay. And I call and it's microchipped. Sure. And they say to me, because we've seen this in rescue too, I gave that dog to somebody else months ago. Okay. I have to believe that, but the microchip is still registered to you. And I find the dog and it's not in good shape. Is that still the legal owner, the microchip registered person or is it a licensed based person? So so the microchip is not a license. It's just kind of an identifier and it's a tool. Right. But if we just apply basic property rules, so that individual who says that they gave the dog away, they're still living and they said that they look, I gave this dog away to Joe months ago. That's not my dog anymore. To me, that sounds like they've abandoned their property, right? So it was treated like abandoned property. So they've, they've given up all of their legal rights to that particular dog, the individual that says I, I gave that dog away now. Again, there are processes in place so you can't legally just let your dog roam and give it away and abandon it that way, right? There are proper protocol that pet owners need to follow in order to not wind up sighted and find and all of that. But yes, if they abandon their animal by way of a transfer, they also give up illegal rights as well. When it comes to feeding our pets, we believe in results you can see over hype and that's exactly why we're proud to partner with Dr. Tim's pet food. Dr. Tim Hunt is a practicing veterinarian who spent decades formulating nutrition for every kind of pet from the laid-back lap dog to his own I did a ride sled team. Check out Dr. Tim's pet food and see what science-back nutrition looks like for your pet. They'll have a shiny coat, more energy, healthy weight and more because every great adventure, even a nap on the couch, starts with a healthy pet. - Boy, in abandonment, I can tell you helping out these shelters, it's rampant, you know? Someone will tie a dog to a post and leave it there. Today, there was someone that backed up in a parking lot, a tractor supply and grew the dog out and then left in, of course, the dog chases because it's their owner, you know? Whether regardless of what kind of a crap owner it was or not. So, are you seeing a lot of people providing for their pets in their trusts? - You know what, I am. I am seeing a lot of people. - But do you have to bring it up to them? - So, I would say a lot of people, you know, it's funny as I was preparing to participate in this podcast, I've been thinking about, you know, a lot of clients have dogs and cats and those types of things. And I would say the vast majority are not formalizing plans for their pets in their estate play any. But being asked to be on this podcast, it kind of, in my mind, I see opportunities to help just get people thinking about it. And I think just as I kind of, you know, implored you to be on the front line as of that to, you know, kind of identify when pet owners may need to, you know, maybe consult with their attorneys and advisors to provide planning. I think I'm also on the front line when I'm drafting these plans and I'm sitting at a kitchen table and I'm petting Fido and Fido's not even playing for in the documents, you know? So that's on me as well to at least make sure that we're talking about it. So I will tell you that on a going forward basis, when I know there are animals, I'm going to be talking about it every time and make sure that, you know, even if it wasn't, you know, kind of an initial thought, it's definitely something that families are talking about and being intentional about. So, well, I think in my profession, I think we should do that as well. I mean, you know, I had a lot of regeneration pets that I saw, you know, people that were in their 40s when I saw them and then they were 75 when I retired and this was their third pet. And I think it's something as veterinarians, I know a lot of the younger vets, they never think they're going to hit 40. You know what I'm saying? But, but I think it needs to be thought of and brought up to pet owners and say, you know, not like, hey, you're no spring chicken anymore. And, you know, did you ever think if you would fall and break a hip or whatever? 'Cause I'm telling you, these people that I saw at 40 that are now 75 still think they can deal with a 75-pound yellow lab as they're being pulled out of down the hall in my office. And so I, if my staff take the dog out to the couch. (upbeat music) Hope you're enjoying today's speaking of pets podcast. Every week, we feature a board certified specialist through metallurgy, knee, oncology, internal medicine, orthopedic surgery, ophthalmology, dentistry. You name it if it affects pets, we're on it. We're here to share some really good information for pet owners, practical information that is science-based so that you can be a pet or owner and have a healthier pet. To learn more about your pets health, check out our other episodes wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone, I'm Larry. Some of you know me as Grandpa Larry. And I run Larry's Animal Safari on YouTube where we share sweet and educational videos about baby gorillas, zoo animals, and the amazing teams who care for them. If you love animals of all kinds, I'd love to have you join us. You'll meet little ones like Jamila and Kayambi, learn how zoo families grow and enjoy real moments that bring joy and curiosity to animal lovers everywhere. Just search Larry's Animal Safari on YouTube or click the link in the show notes. New videos go up weekly and each one supports awareness for animal care and conservation. Thanks to speaking of pets podcast for all they do. Now, let's get back to the show. - So one interesting story. My friend Sandy, who's a retired emergency room nurse and heads up the Gold Retriever Rescue locally. The MT's brought in an elderly patient and she was telling Sandy, "I had to leave my little dog "and there's no one at home." So Sandy ran over to this woman's house on her lunch hour and took care of the dog. But my hope after that, and I know Sandy followed through on it was to tell social services so that they could maybe contact a relative, like you had mentioned earlier, Nolan, another point of care or an agency, if you will, one of the local rescues and maybe give them permission to go in and just take the dog for a few days until the lady, because this is what we don't have. We don't have something like rehab. When humans are in the hospital and then they're well enough to get out but not yet to go home, we don't have anywhere like an interim place. Well, I guess we have a kennel that you could place the dog into. I know as that, we will keep some of those dogs for a few days for some of our well-known clients to help ease that burden on them. But it's really kind of sad that, like you said in our will or trust, we can put in the person to take care but it might be a good idea to put in the name of a kennel and phone number. And certainly, like you said, you're veterinarian. Correct, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, certainly the name of the veterinarian, you know, put in the name of preferred to boring facilities, right? And medications. Correct, correct, absolutely. And I really mean it right down the plan and have a little something that you can keep in your wallet or the pillager, whatever that's really easy to work. Or on a fridge. Yeah, well, the reason I mentioned the wallet is because what happens if something happens to you and you're outside of your home, right? You are rock climbing or whenever. And, you know, no one knows, you end up in an ambulance, no one knows you left your dog at home, right? You were only planning to be away for a few hours and a few hours turns into a few days. You know, and it takes a while before word travels that you had an accident. So making sure that, again, it's pretty easy for, you know, other people to step in and, you know, come to the rescue for that animal at home. You know, that reminds me, Nolan, I had a client that she was a single elderly gal and she had two dogs and was actually, God bless her, pulling a trailer to Florida from Cleveland. And you know those hills in West Virginia on 77. Well, she, the trailer Jackknife, and anyhow, long story short, the fire department rescued her and were nice enough to take the dogs to the local shelter temporarily until she got out of the hospital. Okay. Which I thought was a wonderful thing because you read about these accidents. I saw a lot in Florida where people were in an accident. The dog wasn't tethered in the car, which is another big mistake. Yep. He had to go off and they spent the rest two weeks looking for this dog, which when a dog or cat gets loose in an unknown area, they literally turned feral. And I know you don't want to think that about your pets, but they do. They're confused. They're running for home wherever that is. So to have something in your wallet, or even on your phone, if you end up the person's phone, would be a good idea for them. Absolutely, absolutely. No, I agree 100%. So yeah, just thinking through all those audio scenarios, right? Yeah. That's incredibly important when you have a pet. And then thinking of, you know, your pet beyond the way that the law thinks of them, you know, beyond it. If your pet is family, right? Think of them the same way you think of your family and how you want to provide for them. Now, what about farm animals? Are they considered property as well? They are. They are livestock. And so they're treated this, you know, kind of the same way. Now, I think, you know, when people have farm animals, and a lot of times if it's, you know, if you're running a, you know, an actual production farm, those. those companies they plan for their livestock like you know anything else and it's you know that's their beyond property is inventory right so you know so there's other ways to kind of think about that in that regard but you know individuals that have kind of a hobby farm and you've got a couple chickens and some ropes cheap and those types of things you still want to plan for that right the same way it gets a little bit more complicated the more animals you have but you know you you should you know and there are a lot of folks that you know live where you and I live that have chickens running around and and you know you want to you want to make sure that those you know chickens are you know still able to lay farm fresh eggs and all those things you know it's funny you mentioned that because last week we had Dr. Patezky from UC Davis he's also known as Dr. Clark and and I have to tell you raising chickens it it's difficult I mean I always thought you just had chickens and you threw the chicken feet out but really that's you have to prepare it with a brooder and all these words that I had wasn't even familiar with so yeah I can't even imagine if if a friend of mine that like had goats and chickens would call that say hey Alice something happens to me can you take the goats or chickens I'm like well if I can fit them in the car driving to Florida sure I'll take yeah absolutely absolutely um but you well Nolan having said that if you're leaving those type of animals to someone you kind of make sure zoning is okay with that in a new location absolutely yeah and and I would say you know a lot of times you know what we see with that is someone is going to come to that place and inherit that place inherit the farm right family farm or whatever the kids and it's it's kind of um part of the deal that they're going to care for the animals that are on that farm right so just making sure that that's part of the plan right you know we see it with uh you know sheep farmers and those types of things and then and all of that so well you really you really have to get to know your client intimately because you need to know if they have pets do they have like maybe a farm in Nebraska I mean that they might forget to mention absolutely yeah my my jobs to ask a lot of questions right and you know a lot of a lot of the processes you know in the very beginning is just really unpacking all of those things right so I ask people kind of you know from a financial perspective you know I do you have that farm in Nebraska what do you do with that farm in Nebraska right um you know but more often than not you know a lot of times if they do have you know something like that it is it is here and I would have seen it I come out and I see that they're raising a few chickens there you know they've got a couple you know so I I see that because that that farm in Nebraska if there are animals there it's it's generally livestock again and that you know that's a that's a business right and it's and it's run a little bit differently and they're there tends to be things in place there but again you can't assume that every contingency is planned for but to your point it's it's really important for me to get to know my my clients very well um to make sure that you know not only are we you know planning for the kids um but taking care of the animals as well one last question what do you do in a case of a divorce where they're fighting over the pet sure like how is that awarded I mean like is it worth a lot the woman says I took better care of it pet than you I mean how do you even roach that sure so um again now I I'm not a divorce attorney and um I'm also not divorced so I don't really know um exactly how that works but um I would assume if I were a judge uh I'm going to put my like judge robe on my my imaginary judge robe um if I were a judge I would certainly consider the totality of the circumstances and what I mean by that uh if one party says uh you know I provided all of the care and you know um you know and the other party says well I provided all the money and you know you kind of you kind of want to figure out um you know what the best approach would be in what's probably the best the animal and in that instance there probably is some sort of shared arrangement and I would imagine they probably would you know do something very similar to how courts come down on how kids get shared right um likely they have to pet which fears you are exactly unfortunately because you know you can't you can't have a guardian and lion talk to the dog you know and maybe if I have if I ever if I ever were a judge maybe I would just you know all right bring the dog you stay on one end you stay on another and let's see let's see who he comes to right you know all right all right you snox it just yeah someone put the snuff into your pockets you know no no uh you know uh but yeah no I I think um you know cases of divorce there's really no hard and fast for love and imagine on on that again because it's pets are property just like anything else and it's you know how do we divide property in the event of the divorce right so today's episode is sponsored by dr. Tim's pet food until next time keep asking questions keep learning and keep loving your pets learn more at drtimz.com yeah I know but anyway so so to summarize we really should if we have uh well like you would mention a healthcare power of attorney we could also provide for the pet in that correct you can you can provide yeah so so what you want to do is in your healthcare power of attorney in the event that you are incapacitated you want it to be known that should I have a domesticated animal this is what I want done with respect on my past date or sorry my domesticated animal in the event that I'm incapacitated right okay as I mentioned before the durable financial power of attorney is probably the best place to address pet care in the event of incapacity now certainly if we are looking at our revocable trust we have our revocable trust we can provide you know pet trust provisions in a standard revocable trust right we can incorporate that language within your revocable trust um and then the other thing you know some people have standalone pet trust right those are a little more yeah those are a little bit more you know complex and depending on the circumstances you know maybe it does make sense to have a standalone pet trust we typically see those with like exotic animals or animals that are going to live you know way longer I mentioned tortoises and birds and the parrots yeah so we would typically see that and you know you you kind of want to consider when you're funding those you know pets life expect to see certain you know breed specific cost if you've got you know kind of one of these exotic breeds right you know the medical history of that pet right like are we you know everyone in their Bernadoodle I feel like all my Bernadoodle friends I hate to I love think breakdoodles are great but I feel like they're always at the vet you know I don't know how you see a lot of Bernadoodles you know where doodles in general we just we just lost at the rescue um from Addison's disease a poodle St. Bernard mix okay okay yeah so you know this these doodle crosses I I know why people want them because if they don't shit but right standard poodles have some problems poodles have problems and you know you're combining that with another breed that has problems as well and it's not always good but you're absolutely right and the other thing Nolan they're either really really sweet or very very anxious and nervous right and I don't like have anxious nervous dog around small children right right that's fair it's personality wise um you gotta choose carefully yeah absolutely yeah absolutely I get I get why they're mixing them I get it but I don't agree with it um but yeah you you are right Bernadoodles and it almost every little now yeah yeah reflore it yeah absolutely absolutely so yeah absolutely no no you first go ahead I'll see the other thing you mentioned of having a backup to the backup because you know one of the reasons that I redid my trust is my best friend that would have taken my past should something happen to me she passed away right so I wanted to make sure I I provided that so I had to you know scarf up somebody else that want these two mangy muts that I love with all my heart yeah you need a back to the backup because you know this friend of mine died at a young age who knew that would happen absolutely I tell people you know a plan that assumes everything goes right is not a real plan so you have to have backups to the backups right you you can have your well laid plan but you've got to have that plan for what if things don't go as planned right that's a plan yes yes yes and I also love the the thing that you used with hope oh yeah yeah hope hope is not in the state plan right you know so all right that's it it's the same it's the same as winning is the ladder is not your retirement. Exactly, yeah. Winning the lottery is not your retirement plan. We see it, so we joke about it because I've got young kids and we play all types of sports and you say, you know, your kids aren't your retirement plan either. Your kids, your kids are becoming professional athletes aren't your retirement plan, right? You know, yeah. Hey, for some of these traveling teams, it might as well be. It's almost like on a professional level with these kids. I know. I know. I, yes, yes. And we've got, we've got one travel athlete in our house and it's, it's a lot, but that's so very stressful. No, absolutely, absolutely. But you know what? Like I said, I think, I know the folks that are listening to this, they probably already have done this great work in terms of planning for their animals, but I'm hoping that something that we talked about today gives them just a nugget to kind of think about and make sure that, you know, everything is buttoned up. And even if this is simple as like, you know what? I don't have that little card in my wallet. I need a little card in my wallet that let's everybody know that I've got, you know, a phyto at home and, you know, this is when he eats and he's on this, this is his vet. And I think people need to talk to either attorney and also to their veterinarian. So that everyone is kind of in the picture. And, you know, I know that we don't really talk to our neighbors much anymore, but be aware of that your neighbors have pets kind of look at us to them. If you don't see him for a couple of days, that might, that might mean that pet didn't get said for a couple of days. What happened over there next door? So, you know, it's like say something sees or sees something, say something actually. Well, I can't thank you enough, Nolan, I, you know, I, if this saves one pet, I think it was well worth it. Seriously, because we need to fight for them. Even though the state of Ohio treats them as property, we know they're not property. Hey, tree. Absolutely. Absolutely. Pets are family. We've got to treat them like they are. That's right. Well, anyway, we're going to wrap it up. Again, former Akron zip or you're always being Akron zip, right? Once it's, they're always a zip. Yes. Once a buck, I always a buck. And I know because they keep from the alumni foundation. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. To remind me. Yeah. Absolutely. So we're going to wind it up. Our thanks to Nolan James for these helpful hands. We just, you know, listen, I can't imagine what this hour would have cost all you listeners. Okay. So Nolan was kind enough to donate an hour of his time to help us prepare for our health as well as the health of our pets. So thanks again, Nolan. Alex, thank you for having me. Truly a pleasure. Always good to see you. Oh, same here. And listen, everyone out there. Send your questions. SOPpodcast.com tour our webpage. We're always happy to answer your questions and your calls. And until next time, everyone, kiss your pets for us. Hey, thanks for watching and listening. We like likes. Don't forget to like, share and subscribe. You can follow us on social media at speaking of pets and give your pets a big kiss from the Novotni Sisters. The speaking of pets podcast is an SLA video production.