What You Actually Built It For | After Chapter Podcast 32

I've always been better at showing up for other people and maybe even than myself. - Welcome to the AfterChapter podcast. I'm Michelle and I'm Cecilia. We explore who you are when the roles fall away and pour into what's next, one conversation at a time. - Hi Cecilia, hey Michelle. How are you? - Good, good, thank you, thank you. Ready for this conversation, ready and excited about this new season that we are in, the reconstruction. So I'm ready to go. - Season two has a lot to offer. So I'm looking forward to continuing this, the space of the episode. So I take it away. - Yeah, so this, for this episode, I wanna make sure we set the background who it's for, the foundation of it before we start the conversation. So it's, you've given people something before you were even sure that they needed it. Maybe it looked like generosity underneath it. Maybe we're hoping to get something back. - You know, and back in season one, we sat down with Melissa Finney and it was an episode called, what happens when what you love isn't enough? And that was about when the passion stopped being the thing that replayed what she was putting into it. And so for today's talk, it's really as close to as opposite as you can get from that perspective. And so our guests built something to give to 22 other women and it had to learn to let it give something back to her as well. - So she's not here with a resolution. She's here with the honest version. - So let me tell you about our guests. So our guest is Rochelle Kana. She's a licensed clinical social worker with more than 25 years of experience and helping individuals and families understand the stories that shape who they are. She's also the CEO and co-founder of Memoir Me, a platform that reimagines how families preserve their stories and legacy. She's also the author of Inherited Trauma and Family Well. And she brought together 22 contributors for a book call from Echo to Athena, a project that also taught her something she didn't quite expect about her own instinct to give. And so with that, I'd like to welcome Rochelle to the after chapter podcast. Welcome Rochelle. - Hi Cecilia, hi Michelle. Thank you so much for having me. - Thank you for joining the after chapter. - Absolutely. But before we get deep into the conversation, we don't go deep until we pour. So Michelle, let's talk about our pour. And it's not water. - I was, did you see me looking about me pouring water? - I was very suspicious. - For not watching and listening. It is clear in the glass. And so I know Cecilia always gives side eye if I have water. So today, we're pouring a gin and tonic with elderflower. So that's why it's clear. - Like that. - Okay. - So a gin and tonic doesn't need help. And it is really too ingredients. And it's been fine for a couple of hundred years. Gin and tonic has been a cocktail. I believe over 180 years. So the elderflower, it isn't fixing anything. It's not a rebrand. It's something extra because it's good. - Okay. - Not because the original needed to become something else or more marketable. - So that is the pour for today. Because this conversation is about the things that we love that don't need a business plan attached to justify them. And you can add to something you love like we did with the elderflower without turning it into a pitch. So cheers. - But before we take our sip, I don't know. We always ask our guests if they have anything that they're pouring and what they're sharing for this conversation. So Richelle, are you having anything this evening? - Well, Cecilia, you might have to give me this side, I, because it's been a long time. - Yeah, I just needed some water. But you ladies enjoy, enjoy. - It sounds lovely what you're having over there. - Water is good. - Just that when I'm expecting a pour, I'm expecting a cocktail, but get it. - I got it. - The moments when we've had a water, it's been appropriate. And so this has actually really been something. Thank you. - So we can dive into the conversation, Richelle. Thanks again for joining us on the podcast. In your bio, Cecilia, mention the newly released book from Echo to Athena. - Yeah, so what is this book actually before anything else enters this space? What is the book about? If you can give us your elevator pitch. - The book like the drink has a few layers, but they're all very intentional layers. One is a reflection on myth and the cultural stories that we grow up with and how much they influence us unconsciously. So we really looked at stories that had influenced women that were written about goddesses, women, without their input. So all of these myths were written by men. So it's a retelling and a re-understanding by through the lens of women, of those stories and the relevance to the time that we're in. So we are in what is currently known as the great wealth transfer. I like to call it the great matriarchal rising because that's what it actually is. Women will be the primary holders of wealth by 2030 and that's not something that's really known. So I wanted to highlight that in the book. And the book is about helping women write themselves into stories where they may not have been maybe allowed or welcomed. - Great, thank you. And I appreciated, because again, I do remember a lot of the Greek myths and the goddesses and gods that we learned about. And so I, but I wasn't estrenoyed with echo and her story and it's incredibly relevant. But I'd love to go back a little bit. And so before we get to the book or before you get to the point of the book, I know when we spoke, you talked about participating in a panel in South Africa and how that was the impetus for the book being a reality. Would love for you to take us back to that process. - Yes, so it was a women's wealth panel that I was invited to speak on in my role as a family business and succession advisor. So there were several women on the panel and we all spoke about a topic that we felt like was relevant to women and wealth at the time. And there were two other women on that panel, a woman named Stacey and a woman named Zeta, that I just thought, I was so just so inspired by them. I just thought I just wanna do something with these ladies. And so I walked away thinking, you know, something is gonna come out of this, but I just don't know what. - So how did you get from that point to say, getting 22 contributors to this book? - So that might be a personality issue. So I had an idea and I thought, oh, maybe I can collaborate with these women. And then I thought, well, what is relevant? The idea of the book just started to snowball on itself. And I think anyone who is a creative kind of understands once you get the ball rolling, then it just goes into something else. So the story of Echo was something that I had been pondering because it was in my first book, inherited trauma and family wealth, because families echo these stories throughout generations. So I had Echo on my mind. And I thought, well, I started to research a little bit more about that story. And I thought, wait a minute here. There's some maybe misconceptions about Echo. So I started to just think about what would be something really interesting to bring to women in the advisory space. So let me back up. I moved out of New York City during COVID. And I didn't have much of a network really because I had worked independently by myself for years as a therapist and a family business advisor. I had summary furls, but I didn't have a huge network. So when I moved to West Virginia, I spent two years interviewing people on LinkedIn, just because I wanted connections. So I wanted to find women and men to bring into my network. So I had spent all of this time talking to all of these advisors. And we are in the midst of the great wealth transfer. So if you're in the family wealth space, that's kind of what you're talking about. And I thought, you know, there are so many women here and so many voices. And I've just written this piece about our cultural history. What if I had more women do that? And Stacey and Zeta were the first two that I thought, oh, maybe I can do this with them. Was there anything in bringing, you know, you mentioned Stacey and Zeta, but then continuing with the other 20 or so women that as they were contributing their stories that you didn't, you didn't realize that this was coming out. This, as part of the story that you were not expecting. There were many things that I was not expecting. I think in the process of writing an anthology. First of all, we're talking about women becoming better leaders. And there are so many things that hold that unconsciously hold women back as leaders. Whether that's they're playing a role because society told them to just a host of things. So the process of talking to the women and making decisions together. So I was the one leading the project, but really the women had so much input. And these were all super successful women. So there was, you know, there was like conflict and there was disagreement. And there were things that were hard because as we were writing the book, we were also processing collective trauma of that women have gone through in circles together. So I think for me, the thing that I wasn't expecting. This wasn't a therapy project, but it ended up being a trauma processing experience for me. And I know for some of the other women as well. So before you ask your question, I just wanted to also recap one other thing. And making sure that because we always talk about be transition and the pivot. So I want to make sure our audience, you know, understands that this is always the through line around that and the identity. And so why and why I just want to make sure that said, but also that was it was your transition from being in New York, moving after its COVID, you now moving to West Virginia. Is that part, so there, there is a transition there physically, but also where I was going was that did do believe that that move created the urge created the platform for you to, as you said, I want you to network with other people, because I didn't have a network in in West Virginia. So is that part of the, if that did not happen, do you believe this, these stories would have come out. I don't think they would have, I think moving to West Virginia. So I'm originally from West Virginia, I had moved to New York for graduate school and stayed there and thought I would never leave. And then COVID happened. So, but West Virginia has always been a place where I could come back and kind of like go into my cave and think. And I was unexpectedly thrust back into my thinking space. So there are so many benefits about being in a place like West Virginia for my personality, you know, maybe not others for mine, yeah. The question that I'm, I'm thinking as I'm hearing you go from the connections and building communities and then having your time in in on in South South South Africa for the panel and connecting with the first two women. And as this now morphed as Michelle said, and as I said in the bio to 22. So this is now becoming a big project. And so here you are. Author, right, because you're the one that's just putting so together. You're also the therapist. And so you're playing many different roles. And so I want to know, was there a point in the project that you realize that it was that the project itself was going to demand more of you than what you might have originally thought and or expected. I think Cecilia, you and I may have talked about this a little bit before the episode that I had and I'm doing better, but I have a personality that bites off more than I can chew. And a part of my evolution is getting better at project management. So yes, that usually I have an idea. I think it's a great idea. I go full force into that idea. And then midway through I'm completely over my head. And I think what, what in the world have I, I didn't expect this. I didn't know it was going to be this. This was because I was, you know, 20 other authors were expecting 21 were expecting that I show up and finish this, you know, it's not like it was just something that was for me, I've created a community now that I need to show up for and make sure that it's a good, a good finished product. So, yeah. So I think if I can follow up. So now you have these 22 or 20 other people who now are looking to you for guidance. And so there, there are two things I want to know, you know, was there a point where you wanted to stop. Again, you talked, you talked about your project starting skills, right, that you love to start a project and it gets to be big. But is there a point that made you want to stop. And then what made you want to push forward. Well, I wouldn't have actually stopped, did I want to stop. I also have, you know, I have a baby under two years old. And so, you know, I think there are definitely moments of overwhelm where you just want maybe everything to stop. Like, can everything just stop for a minute. But I've always been better at showing up for other people and maybe even than myself. And I think that's also something that is is common to women. And not that that's always that I'm not saying that that's a bad thing. But of course, I was going to, I was going to show up and finish, even if I had moments of wanting, wanting to take a pause, you know, mentioning the pause. I mentioned in one of our conversations pre pre pre podcast episode around that the women or at least one of them in the group, you know, eventually told you that you can stop. And that I don't need anything from you. I just wanted to hear about from you. What, what's that like to hear that specifically saying it's okay. So that specifically, you know, a little bit of me could even maybe cry as I just hear you say it back. Because it's almost such a sense of relief and something that well, I mean, in a helping profession like a therapist, you're not, you're not permitted to stop. I mean, that's your job. You're there to show up and and be fully present all the time. So it was really nice to hear that. And, and one of the through lines of all of the women and, and there are two men in the book as well. But the mentorship that they provided me without knowing it was just tremendous. So, so yeah, it really meant a lot to me to hear that from her. And has that has that ever shown up anywhere else in your life in the sense of someone else or group of people giving you that grace to say it's okay. As you mentioned, it gave you some relief, not to say that you stopped, but it did give you some relief from from even just hearing it. I don't think so. I think that's the, I think that's the first person who had ever said to me, you don't have to do anymore like you've done an incredible job, you don't have to do anymore. Yeah. And, you know, I know you said it was a relief, but is there anything else in terms of how you feel or felt I should say from here just hearing that. Well, talking about, I know a lot of what you talk about here is identity. And that was an identity shifting moment and each interaction. with these women, I can point to an identity shifting moment. So that it actually gave me the confidence to ask for things more. Tell me more about that. Why why to ask for things more. Oh wait, I don't have to do. Well that could somewhere in my brain that freed me up to receive. Oh you mean I can actually ask you for something? Like and you so as a therapist, my eight hours a day are solely focused on you are the most important person in the room. I'm not sharing anything about my life. I'm not giving. I'm not asking you for anything. So in terms of an identity shift, it was like wait, I can operate where I actually go out and ask people for things. And I think when we talk about money, this is a very men do this a lot better than women. So yeah, yeah. You know if I can just move to the book now. So talking about from echo to Athena, it has the four pillars of reclaiming your voice, owning your choices, decisions, redefining legacy and leading with wisdom. And so I'm interested in understanding where did those come from? Was this from the material that was being you know put together or did you already have these four pillars prior to to the book? Pretty much everything that was in the book was the culmination of all of the women's wisdom that was there and the through lines that were in. So each of them have written an essay in the book. And the book is is broken up into the facts, wisdom and calls to action. So that's actually the three sections of the book. But those pillars that you described are woven through each of the essays. And of those pillars, which of those resonates with you the most? And also which are the hardest for you personally? Oh, well, you know, I think for me, maybe both wisdom, it centers around wisdom. You know, so I think wisdom requires discernment and that's the hardest. And it's also if we're leading from a place of wisdom, it doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman. So this is not, you know, this is not a hardcore feminist anthology. Although the the forward is written by someone who would claim she is a hardcore feminist. But, you know, good leadership, good work is comes from wisdom. So I would say wisdom is both of those, maybe the hardest and the most important. Thank you. You know, and also as we've been having our prep calls and just getting to know more about the book as well as the process, we talked about things that are sacred. And so the question I have for you is how do you tell the difference between something that needs to stay untouched and something that's meant to be shared? Cecilia, I, you gave me this question before the podcast to ponder. And I'm really glad that you did. And I don't know that I have a fully formed answer even as if yet because I've been thinking about it. And so I'm going to answer at the best I can. I'm just going to give the examples of what has been shared and what I freely share and openly monetize and want to monetize in my life. And I would say the majority of my life, you know, my father was a really good salesman. He, he lived kind of by the motto, always be selling. And, and I think a part of me likes to stay connected is that, like, that's my personality as well. I think, I think selling is one of your greatest callings in the world because if you have talents, you should be sharing them in a way that's reciprocal. So the majority of the projects and things that I do, they are to benefit others and so that I can receive value back. And even though this was a passion project, I, you know, I do, I do hope to make some money off of it as it goes along. But there are two things where when, when I first heard the question, I thought there's not really much of anything. I can pretty much monetize anything. But there's not. There's two things that I would not monetize and that some people do. So I've done yoga since I was 12. And I actually tried to be a yoga teacher for why was I have a certified and tried to teach yoga. And I just thought, I don't want to teach yoga. Like, this is mine. Like, this is my one. I want to go to a class. I want to be alone with myself and my thoughts. I, I don't want anyone. I don't want this to be reciprocal. I want it to be for me. And then the other is becoming a mom. You know, a lot of people monetize their process of being a mother or they put it on YouTube or they learn some, they become a Montessori teacher or, you know, something about mothering they, they can monetize. And I don't have any interest in doing that at all. So I guess I would say the things that are to not to be shared are maybe the ones that are very closest to my heart. That's the best that I could answer that. Because other than that, these are the two of most important things to me. That's good. The things that are closest to your heart and the thread of knowing who you are and that moving to West Virginia kind of it sounded like it filled your soul. And it was comfortable for you to be there because it was it aligned to who you are. How did you and going back to the the the thread of identity? How did you always know that about yourself or and or has this process of writing and putting this book together listening to these 22 contributors help to work that out for you even more? Yeah. So the discussion of identity is something it's it's one of the foundations of the book. It's something that I love to talk about and and share thoughts around. So I think identity is made of two different things. And one for me, the first thing is is knowing when I say knowing who I am, it means remembering that I am much more than my body and that I am a spiritual being and that they're that I am connected to things that are greater than me and it has nothing to do with where I'm from or what I do or any of that. So there's that part of my identity which I think kids are aware of and as we grow up we get told that all the external stuff is our identity and then we have to kind of unlearn that a little bit. So the other part of identity is the external though, right? Like what am I spending my time doing? And the book allowed me to have a bigger view of who who I maybe think that I can do more than what I actually what I thought I could. You know, I really appreciate these moments when the breadcrumbs from previous episodes are now we can say a previous season come forward with us. And so your your description of your identity in almost a spiritual way is very aligned to the conversation that we had before and who are you without the title, right? And so you've taken it a step deeper and made it really about who you are on a spiritual on a different wavelength. And so I really appreciate that level of depth. And so, Michelle, when we have our guests on, we also like to ask them, I mean season one was exactly what Cecilia was just mentioning about who are you without the title. We always asked our guests that if they could introduce themselves in three words without the title personal or professionally. And so for season two in this reconstruction, we we've learned and had better questions to help us understand what our identity is not saying we've gotten it, we've gotten the elevated pitch correct but we are getting better at it and so now we're moving into this reconstruction where we're picking up the things that work and we resonate with and putting down the things that don't and so with that thought, what is something for you that you're holding on to in this season of your life and something that you're starting to loosen your grip on? I love this question and before I answer that I'm going to tell you why. I was trained as a hypnotherapist and one of my first lessons at the NLP Center in New York with Steven Leeds's name. He did a lesson on holding on and letting go and he said you know everything that you're going to be doing with clients is about holding on and letting go and navigating that balance with them. So this question has been at the root of my practice for you know all these years. The one thing that I'm holding on to really tightly now is this idea of presence and remember I love the word presence. Presence like did I get a present? Presence is such a beautiful word because who doesn't love presence? Yeah right. So presence is what I'm holding on to and it's just I wasn't sure what I was letting go of but since I'm talking about it and expectation is what I'm letting go of you know it's okay like it's if you're in the presence like I don't have any expectations I'm just happy to be here and maybe that has to do with having a two-year-old so that might be okay. It's good. It's good. So I'm going to answer that question. So what am I holding on to and what am I letting go of? You know I think as what I've appreciated about this podcast is not just the space for the podcast for our guests and the the the the journeys and the questions that they've been asking with that we actually are doing the work as well and so what I am holding on to is acceptance of this moment and the me in this moment and so it makes sense when you hear I'm what I'm letting go of and something I've been struggling to let go of and I think I've gotten better is perfectionism like having to be buttoned up having to have all of the answers and so if I'm just going to be accepting of who I am in this moment I'm accepting that in the moment I'm also not going to be perfect and so flaws in all I'm I'm here I'm present as you said. Yeah and I just hope as you're speaking my my letting go of is very very similar similar but I was just thinking it's not really letting go it's loosening your good because I didn't let go okay yeah yeah that made me like oh my god I didn't let go but yeah loosening the grip on I won't say the word perfectionism but more of having everything in order let's put it that way and and what I'm holding on to really all the lessons learned in season one and there have been so many that I'm not putting down I'm still picking them up and I'm still processing them because that's I think a daily thing yeah I like that the process process the process and so thank you Michelle for sharing your your journey to this moment I'm sharing the the background for your book and so thank you for being our our our guest and so for to our listeners also our listeners and viewers thank you for for being here as you should know by now new episodes drop on Tuesday and you can find us on all the spaces where you get your podcasts so Spotify Apple Amazon I heart and so forth and what we do want to encourage you is we continue to do this work together is join us off the podcast and in our newsletter and so you can subscribe to our newsletter at the after chapter podcast at beehive.com so you can find the exact link in our show notes and so with that thank you Michelle thank you so much for joining and thank you everyone for joining us on the after chapter podcast and continue to pour in thanks for spending time with us on the after chapter podcast like follow subscribe and share until next time pause take a sip and stay with what's unfolding oh one more thing here comes the legal part our lawyers will be really happy we said this the after chapter podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes we are two women pouring into this conversation with you we are not licensed therapist and nothing you hear on this show is intended to replace the advice of a physician therapist professional coach or any other qualified professional if you're in a season that calls for deeper support please reach out to a professional and know that reaching out is one of the bravest things you can do