What would it take to face your biggest fears?

Canada's indigenous stories aren't just being told, they're being reclaimed. Explore Canada's indigenous history through telling our twisted histories, the vibrant conversations on unreserved, and the very inu-jitu language archives on Inuit Unigangi. Amma uta ditalguna la dilugit Inuit Unigangi. Plus, hear that powerful investigations like Cooper Island and Missing and Murdered. Listen to the full collection wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. This is now or never, I'm Efi. And I'm Trevor, and I like to introduce you to my friend, Mike Bio. Now I've known Mike for about 20 years now, and just last year, he experienced one of the scariest moments you could have. Have you been back to this area? No, this would be my first time. so I can do it in. I remember the space from the starting line, but no, this would be my first quimps out of it. So what's one of the last memories you have? I remember much of the race. I can remember running through just some of the residential streets. I remember starting to hit my wall, taking a short walk break, got to the last fuel station, and then I remember seeing my wife swing by. I remember my little kiddos coming up. They had little signs that they probably just made that morning, just cheering me on. I remember my son trying to get on the road and run with me for a little bit, and then just really quick, I was honest with them. I said, "Gate, dad's just going to crush this race." And then seconds later, I just went in the back of my ambulance. That's what happened. I had a cardiac arrest, so steps after the finish line, I just collapsed, faced down, and run onto the ground. My heart stopped, just as simple as that. What I saw that morning, I can replay to my head as I often do. You know, one moment you're throwing high fives and smiles, and graduating runners, and in a split blink of an eye, you're being pulled to the finish line area, saying a person went down to the finish line. This is race director Jonathan Torquilla, and what he saw that morning is something that he will never forget. His face was down on the ground. As I was turning this guy over, I saw Mike's face and recognized it was Mike. And I knew Mike previous to this incident, so that really shook me to see his purple lips and pale face, and zero signs of life, like zero, like, "Oh, man." I was a paramedic for 13 years, so right away, I jumped into my flight or fight mode, so I immediately told the crew to start, you know, "This guy has no pulse, let's get the AED, let's start activating on this." Ripped off his bib because I've right away, my first thing that oddly came to my mind was we got to get ahold of Jess, his wife, and make sure that the kids aren't around. In my career as a paramedic, you know, maybe 5% of the time, I was at about come in these kind of scenarios for cardiac arrest. So we were able to shock Mike, stand clear, shock them again, and continued compressions, he gasped, and he started puckering from his lips and slowly breathing again. I want to say it was about 5 minutes of no oxygen to the brain. I'm just sort of coming to, I can hear people saying my name, and just, it's streamed disorientation, remember having a mask on my face, I remember hearing my wife's voice, and just for me, like utter confusion, strap down to a board, feeling very restrained, and just feeling like, "Oh, I must have fainted," or "I must have just like blocked out sort of idea." You remember what went through your mind, though, when the paramedic said to you, "You got a cardiac arrest?" Like, "You're strapped to a gurney." I know this conversation came up along with my wife, of my utter pure embarrassment, of something like this occurring, so embarrassment. Embarrassment? Yeah, I mean, to see like a body fail to this level is just nod on the radar. And then the utter fear of being in the middle of a crowd, having your jacket and your shirt cut off of your body, and just being there just helpless, right? There is a part of you that's not initially concerned about the idea that you passed away for a few minutes, but that your shirt was cut open in front of a large group of people. We all have opportunities in our lives, and things to improve on, and yeah, self-esteem is maybe there on my list. And yeah, that was a conversation all throughout the hospital as well. It was definitely-- wait, so I didn't have my shirt on, and how many people were there on that race? Yeah, yeah. It is wild that you can die and come back to life and still be most haunted by embarrassment. I think that's because as much as you can imagine how you'll react when something scary happens, you have no clue. You don't know where your mind will go or what new fears will show up. It's unpredictable. And we're going to be joining back up with Mike as he puts on his running shoes and tries to run once again a year later in the exact same race, because that's what this show was all about this week. People facing their fears head on. Because being courageous, it isn't about being fearless. It's about being scared out of your mind and still doing it anyway. I was nervous. Like, I didn't want to-- I didn't want to enter the water, and then it was like, "Okay, something bad might happen." I did have a moment where I'm like, "Okay, maybe I just need to tell everybody I love that." I feel bad. But I was like, "You know what, girl, you got this. There's lifeguards you got this." This is our home. Mount Pearl is our home. And so, in the end, you know, once the first initial burst of fear is calmed down, the idea of going, "How can we make it better rather than just packing up and running away?" How can we turn this place safe for my children, for everybody's children? Honestly, I'm like the monkey emoji with the eyes covered when I send out an invitation. I'm like, "Hiding my fate like, oh my gosh, this person's going to come or this person's not going to come." They're going to see me asking them for something. Can we check the event, right? Like, how many tickets have you sold? Huh! Okay. [laughter] I'm scared. This is "Now or Never." Stepping into what scares you most. Where am I, K. Biles' case? Running toward it. Because the day the following is cardiac arrest at the half marathon, we're filled with a battery of tests. Trying to find out what would cause a healthy, 39-year-old guy to have his heart stop. It was easily one of the hardest times of my life. When you're stuck in the moment of going test after test after test, you're fearful of what they're going to find, right? And the second night that I was there, I had a visit from the night nurses. And even on some of their tests, they're like, "Gate, we've discovered that you have some pulmonary heart attack." You have some pulmonary embolisms. You have like blood quats in your lungs. We see spotting all over your liver. So we're going to start treating you and getting ready for chemotherapy to treat cancer. And you're sitting there being like, "I'm sorry, like 24 hours ago, I'm running a race and everything's fine. And I'm high-fiving strangers holding up signs that are funny and making you laugh and motivated." So I just died. I have blood quats in my lungs. And I have cancer all of a sudden. So positive news is 24 hours later, more thorough tests. Queer me of those other things. But you go back to being alone in your thoughts at night, lying in that bed alone and just thinking about, like, how did this happen? How did I get here? Why an absolute rollercoaster? Like, my god, man. Yeah, so I have an ICD. It's a pacemaker and a defibrillator all built into one. Not gonna lie. Now and then my son just draws me ironman at this point, which is really sweet. That's cool. That's like-- It's tough to talk, right? I mean, if there's a takeaway from that, if that's a way for them to also get maybe over the fear of what would be there, then I think that's a safe and lovable way to have it. They know dad had an accident, but we never really speak about the severity of what that accident was or could have been as well, too. How hard is it, though, or is it hard to fully move forward when you have that constant reminder that's like right there in your chest? And that's a tough question. So there are limitations of what I can't do. I'm not able to do physical contact sports, which is great. I'm not much of an athlete anyway, but like wrestling the kids for the first few times feels a little different, right? I remember maybe a week getting out of the hospital going with my wife to the mall, and I remember just being afraid of like the security devices at the front of the store. I can't go near magnets, and I don't know what that means, and how does a metal detector work? I think it's just those moments where like a lot of things in life, the first time you do it, it might be anxiety inducing, but I think that's what the tough things are meant to be. It's meant to be tough, just that's how you get strong, or is by trying to get through them again, right? Mike spent the next year running on treadmills for specialists, getting his heart monitored, and trying to gain back his confidence. Because even though he almost died, there was this need in him to finish the race the no memory of completing. So now, one year later, he's miraculously lacing up his running shoes on the exact same course to run the exact same half marathon once again. So how's he feeling? One day before the run? Anxiety, a lot of nerves for a lot of things. Can I run it? Absolutely I can. But is that going to get me some peace of mind that I'm actually hoping for at the end of this? I'm not sure. So there's a different sense of pressure on a run like this where I'm really hoping this can help sort of have myself and many people around me together to take a couple of steps forward and start putting it past us. So let's hope it doesn't happen again, right? How do you not think about that? If I was like me, you know my anxiety, I would never run again. I have a segue. I wouldn't even walk. I would just do that the rest of my life. So how often does that thought pop into your brain? Probably more than anyone here wants me to admit. But that's a reality that I'm living in, right? And I'm not afraid to talk about it. I'm very open to talk about it when people ask. And when I have every medical professional in front of me saying, "Go do this, go for it, test your limits, figure out what you want to do," and then making sure other people just know why I'm good. I got this. If I have a second chance, then what am I going to do with it? And is it going to matter? Or am I going to waste it? What do you want to say to everyone that's helped you? For the course last year, mentally, physically, emotionally, to get you to this starting line again? I mean, the fate is the easy one to say. But I think without just messages and encouragement and phone calls and just generally people checking in. I don't think I'd go to push myself to be back here. It's a big reason for me to keep going and it makes me feel valued. It makes me feel like just grateful. It's really grateful. That's how I wanted to be. I'm going to be able to see my feet and my feet. I'm going to be able to see my feet. The next morning, I got to the marathon at 7 a.m. And in a sea of people, I couldn't find Mike. Until I heard a familiar voice over the speakers. Welcome, everybody. 13th annual WFPS run. And I just want to draw your attention real quick, real real quick up to the stage here. Can everyone see up here on the stage? This man right beside me here was a gentleman at the Cardiac arrest at the finish line last year. And here he is, toward this exact starting line as you all hear. Yes. Let's clap for this man. Let's give a round of applause. And as they counted down, Mike waves do his wife and kids are holding colorful handmade signs. That's a daddy and go dad go with a bunch of hearts. And he starts to run. And then two hours and 18 minutes later, the moment everyone at the finish line was anxiously waiting for happen. Yes. We are Mike. His wife, Jess, his kids and Jonathan are all there. And he's really lucky and tears flowing through their smiles and Mike exhausted is overwhelmed with emotion. A lot of gratitude. I think it's easy to say that life is hard and you can do hard things, but it's another thing to show up on some days and actually prove to yourself that you can do it. And I think evidence today based on how many people are cheering for me, falling to me around on the course, running with me. It's tough to soak in how big it is for me right now. How great was this seeing your wife and kids that finish line with that medal? I can't say how much I just value my wife and the support that she's given me. Just taking care of all of us. So yeah, it's who knows who knows what tomorrow brings now. You were presented this bell. You were holding a giant bell. Tell me what this is. So in typical running folklore, when you hit your PR PB, you have the opportunity and most races to ring a bell and to celebrate. So last year sitting in the ER, Jonathan came up to meet me there very shortly after I got admitted. And I think the first question of my mouth was like, I didn't need a chance to ring the bell. And from whatever Jonathan does, the magic of a man, he took the bell from last year, has my initials, my bib number, my racetime. The power of getting to ring that and the emotion that you know, it means a lot. It really means a lot. Yeah. I don't know what I'm going to do with it now. But it looks really good. It looks really, really good. Yeah. Give it a ring. Congrats, brother. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I couldn't be more proud of Amifi. Hmm. It's pretty cool that when you're facing a fear, you get to ring a bell and there's a crowd to cheer you on. Love that. If you want to see what overcoming your fears actually looks like, head on over to our CBC now and our Facebook and Instagram page and check out Mike Cross and that finish line. This is now our never I'm Trevor Denean. I am if you chew it, and today we are pushing past what scares us most. And you know, fear can be a powerful motivator and it has been for Bailey Ripple. In the past year, the mom for Mount Pearl, Newfoundland has done things she never thought she'd do. And it all started last November. Bailey's husband, Shem Evans was on his way to pick up their daughters from school. Yeah. It was a very normal Friday evening. It was 5 5 30 and I had just gotten off the phone with my husband. He was going to pick up our kids from school. Something he did every day. And he was going to call me right back and we're going to discuss our supper plans. And when I picked up the phone, I heard him screaming into the phone. He said he'd been attacked. He told me I had to get to the kids. He said he was bleeding and he had run into a house. And he hung up the phone. Oh, the world stopped. The fear was so immediate to hear somebody who's the love of your life screaming into the phone, get to the kids. Somebody's attacked me to say that everything froze and all I could think of was getting down the hill. And so I got into my truck and I raced there not knowing what I was getting myself into, not knowing if my kids were okay or if he was okay or where anybody was. I sat in the school parking lot for a couple minutes, see if there was any gang of kids in the parking lot or if anybody was going to attack me if I got out and I managed to get myself into the school and be with my kids. We ended up having to go to the hospital. He had a traumatic head injury. His pupils weren't dilating. They didn't know if there was a brain bleed at first. That was the evening that changed everything. We basically went into lockdown. Our children didn't immediately return to school. We pulled them from all activities for the time being. They were pretty shook up. The school was their safe place. And all of a sudden this place that is supposed to be so happy and a second home to them was not safe anymore. We definitely considered leaving. I think anybody would. Especially you know it is a very unnerving feeling to know that seven youth attacked you and you don't know what they look like. You don't know their names. Nothing's public. that is a very unnerving feeling in a small city. And so, in the end, you know, once the first initial burst of fear is calm down, the idea of going, "How can we make it better rather than just packing up and running away? How can we turn this place safe for my children, for everybody's children?" Friday was a violent day in Mount Pearl, two separate attacks here on Roosevelt Avenue. Two men sent a hospital with serious injuries. The suspects, a gang of young people. Our residents don't feel safe. They don't feel comfortable in our city anymore when they hear stories of the baseball bat, for example, being used to attack people. They're afraid to now to go out and walk their dog or go for a walk on the trails. That's just simply not acceptable as something that we've never been used to. It absolutely rocked the community. And it actually resulted in the city of Mount Pearl calling for a community town hall. Because there seemed to be a bit of a narrative that the situation had passed and let's all move on. And I didn't totally appreciate that point of view. Things are not okay here. We got to work together and fix this. The kids aren't okay. And so I really felt compelled to get up and say that to council and say that to the other politicians that were present. And I did it and it was scary. It was scary getting up in front of everybody. I'm calling on all public organizations and government officials within Newfoundland and Labrador to work together to determine an action plan, implementation schedule, and reporting on the solutions required to fix the violent crimes in our communities. The use of Fender's Lives Matter, the victims' lives matter, and the future of this community matters. I think in our households, there was definitely a bouncing between fear, anger, compassion, empathy as well. I know youth can make really poor decisions or be in the wrong place at the wrong time. But then you also go like, how could you do that? How could you do that to another human? Yeah, there was a lot of very late nights talking in circles between what can we do? Because I do believe in giving leniency to youth. I also believe at certain levels of violence, there should be different thresholds for how it's dealt with. And I don't have an answer, but I think it's something that at all levels we need to look at and say maybe this isn't totally working with our current youth justice system. Heading into September, the community safety plan that the City of Mount Pearl had promised back at its community safety forum, the previous December, had still not been published. So as the election was called, I took that as sort of my final push to put my name in. I couldn't let myself sit back and let this just slide by because if it wasn't the odds of my family being randomly attacked again are very, very slim. But it could be somebody else's family and I don't want anybody to go through that. So I took the leap, I put my name in, it was very scary. And as soon as I did, everyone was talking about community safety again. The draft plan is apparently in the hands of City Councilors and I am eagerly awaiting to see the full proposal. And I did not want to sit on the Mount Pearl election. I did still get a good amount of votes. A respectable amount of votes will say, I feel okay about it. I feel what I'd like to have gotten in, yes. But I also see this as a success. I do. I have two little girls and they've seen me prior to going out to all these things and they've seen that I am anxious. I'm worried about it. I'm wound up too. But sometimes you just need to take a deep breath and go, this is right. And get it done. I hope there are ten times even more fearless than me. I hope my children take on the world. And I mean the second born for sure. But I hope my girls are fierce and I hope that if they see something wrong that they tackle it and they do everything in their power to make it right. I do hope that they're absorbing what their mom's doing. I really do. What's beneath the surface of true crime? Uncover brings you there with premium investigations that demand justice. Each season delves into a distinct case from the inner workings of a cult to the disturbing legacy of residential schools. Promising new content year round, uncover will take you on a journey through explosive revelations with hosts dedicated to revealing the truth. Uncover the best and true crime, find it on the CBC Listen app or wherever you get your podcasts. Today on Now and Ever, we are staring fear in the face. I'm trying not to run. Yes, seeing who blinks first. Do you or fear? I'm ifi tua tou. And I'm Trevor Danine. And I, a legitimate fear of mine is hosting. Like hosting this show? No, no, luckily I've had 10 seasons to work that one out, but hosting privately in my life, like being responsible for the coming together of people can't do it won't do it. Maybe one day. It does make me feel better that I've never been invited to a place. I'm like, okay. Well, no, with you, it's specific. But, but a good friend of mine, Lynn St. A, she has the same fear and she's in the middle of trying to conquer it. She is hosting a very public event, a pop up choir sing along and she sending invitations to everyone. Oh, people are coming. I know. Yeah, you're coming. It's gonna be the two of us. You know what? That's fine. Yeah. You know what? You're talking real bold right now, but in the group chat a couple days ago. My friend. Maybe even yesterday. It wasn't even a couple days ago. Yesterday, you were like, I think my biggest nightmare is gonna happen. Yesterday, the biggest nightmare was that like I would show up at the music studio and there was nobody there. But then today, my brain could try catastrophizing as it does was like, hey, new biggest nightmare. Waking up on Sunday and completely forgetting about the event. Okay. Oh, I don't know. So Lynn is stressed and with good reason, she has never done something like this before, but she has a vision that she is determined to see through. I see at least 30 people in this small recording studio space. I see a drummer. I see keyboardist and I see a bassist. And then there's me leading the choir. We're getting into melodies of heaven. We're getting to some James Hall. And we're just vibing. It's a good vision. Where did this idea come from? I'm someone who grew up in church and I grew up singing all the time. I sang with people. I sang by myself. And now that church is no longer like a real part of my life. I felt for the last couple of years that I missed that. I really miss, you know, throwing my voice. I was on TikTok as one does. And I saw this video of people in New York City just getting together singing. And that was it. Just a sing. Sing part of music just a sing. And I was like, "Ugh!" This is for me. It was a vision that came down from the sky. And I was like, "I love it. I love it." Because you're not like an event producer. No, absolutely not. I don't like to plan parties. I don't like to plan anything. I don't like to invite anybody anywhere. I hate that stuff. And now here I am planning my own event. What is that for you? Where does that come from? Oh, it's just, I really hate asking people for things. You know, and I feel like if I'm inviting someone. I'm like asking them to come to something that I'm doing. So take away from their time to come join me in an activity. That's real, because when you do throw out an invite, like you're sort of saying, you know, this thing, this energy requires you. And I can't control you, but I'm hoping you come. Seriously, honestly, I'm like the monkey emoji with the eyes covered when I send out an invitation. And I'm like hiding my faith. Like, oh my gosh, this person's going to come or this person's not going to come. They're going to see me asking them for something. Uh, that's it. And yet you're doing it anyway. I'm doing it anyways, because I need this. Okay, I need this in my life, right? I definitely have to say my pride is on the line, because when I told my dad about this, he was like, it's going to be you and the choir and who else. And I was like, you know what, daddy, you're rude. I was like, you're rude, this is going to happen. I was like, I got pull. I got pull. I've got people out. Like, how many how many tickets have you sold? Huh, okay. I'm scared. Yes, last night we were at three. Okay. Why are you closing your eyes? Because I'm scared today. We are still at three. Woo-woo. You know what? You know what? It's three tickets sold. I'm grateful. I actually know that you have one more RSVP, and that is mine, because that's the first time. Hey, we're the wind. We love to see you. Right, so that leads to be a four-part harmony. Hey, you know what? I'm here for it. I'm here for it. I will see you on Sunday. At choir sessions. At choir sessions. First edition. That's it. We're going to find out how it all turned out before the end of this show, so keep listening. Let's do go over our back floats today. I'll say that. I'm going back. I'm going back. Nice. Beautiful. Like a starfish. Yeah, I see. [LAUGHTER] Alia Hall has on her bathing suit and her swim cap, and she is ready to practice some new skills she just learned in the pool. Is there a goal that you want to hit today? I do want to accomplish treading, so eventually we'll get there. Yeah. Loading on her back all on her own is already a big deal. It's something Alia has been terrified of since she was seven years old. I actually had tried swimming lessons as a child. There was an instructor that wanted to use somebody as a demonstration. And she's like, OK, she's like, you'll be fine. I have you right here. But then in using me as an example, she let go. So now I'm panic. Because I'm like, I don't even know how to do this. And now you let go. And you didn't tell me you were going to let go. So in that moment, I was like, yeah, I don't think I'm doing this again. And then when I went home, I remember telling my mom about it. And I was like, yeah, I don't really want to go. And then that's when she told me about my grandfather, even though I never physically experienced like the passing of my grandfather, he passed away when my mom was two. So she didn't even get to like meet him. But knew that he's knew the story of him passing away from drowning. So he's actually a really good swimmer. But then he caught a leg cramp in the deep end and drowned. So that stuck with me for a really long time. And I was like, OK, yeah, I'm really not going back. Like the reassurance you got when you got home was like, no, you're correct to be afraid because people in our family have died doing this thing. Exactly. And then I actually found out about one of my uncles who also passed away drowning. So I was like, OK, this is a family history. I'm not doing this. So after that, I didn't have any aspirations on learning how to swim for a very long time. It was only when I heard about melanin mermaids. And I was like, oh, OK. Melanin mermaids week three with a lia. And what are we going to be doing today? Melanin mermaids is a program in Hamilton, Ontario that teaches black women how to swim without fear. Historically, swimming has been an activity that hasn't been the most accessible or welcoming for many Caribbean, African, and black people. And when you add on the personal family losses that a lia has experienced, is a surprise she wants to do this at all. It was always like, OK, this is the life skill that I do need to learn. I saw the post and I was like, it's nice, but I don't know if I'm ready. And then my friend was like, well, I'm going to do it. So you're going to do it. And I was like, OK. And then she called me the day she signed up. And she's like, yeah, we're doing it. Well, that first session, that first day, were you lowkey? Like, let me just talk to everyone I love real quick just in case this is-- I did want to-- I did want to have a-- like, I did have a moment where I'm like, OK, maybe I just need to tell everybody I loved that. [LAUGHS] I feel that. But I was like, you know what, girl, you got this? There's lifeguards. You got this. And yeah, it took a lot of talking to myself and trying to like just calm myself down, but I did it. I know one of the first things I do try to teach you is the exact situation that terrified you with swimming in the first place, like that floating on your back. So I did tell this-- I did tell the lifeguard the story of my trauma and why I don't float. And then she was like, OK, and she was really good with literally walking me through the process. And holding on saying, OK, do you want me to let go? No, you don't want me to let go? OK, I'm still here. It was really good. It really felt like I had somebody there. Somebody had my back. So I've accomplished that now. No! I didn't have a flow. I'm not traumatized. I was floating anymore. I'm OK. [MUSIC PLAYING] When I looked around, I literally was like, OK, it's not just me. So I actually thought I would have been the worst of the worst in terms of just the process of learning how to swim all together. And then I saw another lady that was there, and I'm like, OK, she's with me. She understands where I'm coming from. So she was also terrified. And I'm like, OK, girl, we got this. We're good. So yeah, I literally felt like one big sisterhood, because we were really rooting for each other. Even when one person was struggling, and then they made an accomplishment, we were all clapping. It was literally one big sisterhood. [MUSIC PLAYING] Now that you have conquered what sounds like was a fear that you helped for decades. Has it changed anything for you? That you've looked in the eye of this thing that you were so afraid of? It definitely has. So I do have a two-year-old son. And I was like, OK, now if he needs help in the water, I can kind of save him. I feel more confident in that department, because before I was just like, I can't swim. So if he's drowning, somebody's going to have to figure it out. But now I'm like, OK, I can do something. And I can probably even teach him eventually. I even told my mom I was like, I understand, but you got to learn how to swim too, because even my Nana, my Nana's like, she actually learned how to swim too. She's 66. And I said, I said, you go, girl. Like, I'm proud of you. I'm rooting for you. So yeah, she learned how to swim actually recently. If you could learn how to swim at 66, I'm learning how to swim. No, I don't care. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think a little Alia would think of seeing you now in the pool? Like, I would be so, so, so proud, because I really didn't think I would get here. And here I am. I have a suit over our back floats today. I have a suit. I have a suit. I have a suit. I have a suit. Nice. [LAUGHTER] There is a picture of Alia throwing pea signs in the pool. And you cannot even see the terror in her eyes anymore. I'll share that with you on the CBC now, never Facebook, and Instagram. One of the most common fears are social phobias. Fears that you'll get in front of a group of people and make a fool of yourself somehow. Well, seven months ago, I went to an acting class, specifically for people over 50 who aren't just facing fears, they were pursuing their passions. And just allow the body to flow with that good. Now, many steps. Many steps. Small steps to go everything. It was part of an episode we did about people betting on themselves and going all in on their art. That is where I first met Judy Rees. About 25 years ago, I went to see Mamma Mia at Royal Alex, you know, when it first came out. And randomly, I leaned over to my husband. I then husband, and I said in another life, that would be me. And I told my friend that story recently, and she said to me, what about this life? I decided recently to be curious about life. And I said, I'm going to be open to wherever my curiosity goes. I'm so curious about this need to be curious. Like what was the change you were looking for? Probably in the past 10 years, my life blew up. I wasn't. really had nothing of everything that mattered to me in my life was strict. And I spent my whole life being the best mother. Best wife I could be. Try to be the best friend. And I realized, I did all that and look at what's happened. I'm so incredibly thankful to be here today in this spot. You know, you said, I'm standing tall. I'm standing tall because I'm going to own myself. There was a way that Judy looked into my eyes when she said my life blew up. It was a conversation that stayed with me over these past months. And I knew I wanted to learn more. And luckily, Judy is willing to share. When we met up again, she started by telling me about growing up in the church, being surrounded by love, but also shame and understanding that if she wanted to guarantee a life of safety and security, she had to do what she was told, live to serve others, and dedicate her life to being a wife and a mother. I don't think I was unique in that. Many young women who are looking for validation of their own worth. Back then, it was like, oh, do you have a boyfriend? Oh, you know, you're getting married. You're going to have a baby. That was the assumed half in the 80s and 90s. That's just people talk. Not everybody, but in my world. And I think I just took what I thought was the safe path, which meant I was going, when I say, okay, I think I don't know what I thought. Did I not think I could survive financially? Did I not think I survived emotionally? I don't know. I just knew that's the path. I was expected to take and that way I would be okay. When did you realize that what you thought was a guarantee of safety wasn't promised? Like, when did that maybe illusion truly shatter for you? I held that illusion a long time. I mean, I were tired at making this life work. I was in 2017 when I found out that both of my children had been sexually abused. I hit the floor. Because I thought the most important thing is to be a good mother and to raise my children well to be strong, independent, loving, all the things we want for our children. And I put everything into that. And I thought, well, you know, the, no matter what you do in your life, if you screw up your kids, that's that's failure. That's what I thought. And so on that day, when that happened and I found out who had done it to them and what had gone down, I just thought, that's it. Like, there's no point of me going on. I didn't think I could survive it. I didn't think I could survive it because I was a complete waste. That's what I just thought. That I was worthless. That the one freaking job I had was to protect my children. And I didn't. And I didn't. And yet, the sun, how I did get up off that damn floor. Yeah. And figure out how to be there for them because this was not about me. Glory. No, there's nothing to apologize for. Like, this is like I can, I can feel the pain of that moment as, as you describe it. Like, I can see how it's still so present for you right now. The funny thing is, you have two children who do not blame me. Like, I'm, son, you're going, how can you not blame me? You didn't know when this happened with, I already had ulcerative colitis. I had it got it back when I was pregnant with my first child. And then in 2017 and the May, and this came out two weeks later, I was in the hospital with my symptoms so severe that no medications would work. So it was instantaneous. It was like my gut, which had been screaming to me, I look at it as that was almost like my intuition. I was shoving it down. And so it's like my body just gave out. And so when I say everything blew up, everything blew up. Then just after that, my husband and I of almost 30 years separated. There was nothing left. My kids had been abused. My marriage was blown out. My physical health was gone. The friends that I thought would support me. I think they just couldn't handle it. That's what I would say. I don't think they're bad people. I just think it was too much. And I was extremely alone. And I had my deciding is, I either get out and figure this out. Figure it away through. Or might as well die. And there's no way I was going to do that and leave my children. Honestly, that's probably the only thing they kept me there. I think what happens in most things is not one day. It's just every day you do a little bit. And then all of a sudden you go, oh, yeah, I'm still here. Bit by bit. Bit by bit. When you go from spending like decades of your life, almost in the fear of avoiding something that could happen, like trying to preserve safety. And then all of it kind of blows up. Does it make you fearless? Does it make you like where you're like, well, that happened. It didn't kill me. So now like I'm just curious what does it change for you? What did it change for you? I'm still fearful. And I'm still working on that piece of me that's afraid to show myself. Like this is a stretch for me. Vulnerability is my biggest fear. It's really hard, even at this age, to not have that voice. But what I know is, I just sit back and go, here are all the things I've done. I proven to myself that I actually can do it. I don't need someone else to protect me. I don't need someone else to figure it out for me. I can do it. And I have to remind myself that that's just an old voice from a young girl. Right. And I tell that little remind that girl in me of who I am and what I've done. What are some of the things that you you remind that young woman of what you've done, especially in the last 10 years? Well, I go through it. I said, you moved home from New York. Well, you were so sick in bed. You couldn't even get groceries for yourself. And you went through this operation and you negotiated. I just knew in my mind that I had to negotiate what was going to be best for me and my children, whatever happens. And I did it. And then I ended up having deaf surgery and have my large colon removed. And I recovered from that. And then I've traveled to France on my own a couple of times. Been over to other countries. I have, you know, all the things that an independent woman does. I have done it. And I've done it in fear. It doesn't mean I don't have fear. Of course I do. I just say, do I want to jump and see what's there? Or is it okay just to sit here? And I knew I couldn't stay where I was. And that's how I saw it. You do it in fear anyways. What has been important for you to share with your kids about fearfulness and I'm thinking just about how much fear of uncertain outcomes like government, your life, like what is it that you're trying to share with them now in their in their adulthood? Part of what I want to show them is what it looks like to have things pulled out from under you because I think that more lessons are taught by living them than ever by what we say. I'm trying to encourage them to be fearless to trust their intuition because I think that was where it started for me. I didn't trust that deep knowing that I have. And I remember saying to my kids at some of their lowest times and we've had some pretty, pretty dark times where they didn't necessarily want to go on. And I said, I see the light in you. And you can't see that in you. But you need to know that I'm holding that light. And that's what I tried to do for them. Judy, where's your light these days? Oh, that's an interesting question. Here's my light these days. My key word has been joy because joy isn't just in it is not an external thing. It's not about happiness on the outside. I visualize it very much in the center of me like a tree. I have a tree of life tattoo on my arm. And I feel that center. I feel grounded in there. And if I can trust that, I know that's the truest thing about me. So that light actually sits in here. And that's what I'm trying to hone in now. I can just be in this world. And as I am here holding my own light, I am enough. (gentle music) Today on Now Never, we have been figuring out what happens when you take on your biggest fear. And last, I spoke to you about my friend Lynn. She was having nightmares about the public event she had decided to plan. New biggest nightmare, waking up on Sunday and completely forgetting about the event. (laughing) Oh my God! (upbeat music) The event that Lynn is planning is called choir sessions and it's for fellow gospel music nerds who missing in church choirs. And as you can tell from the level of panic, Lynn doesn't regularly host events or anything like that. She is just a person with an idea who created an event listing, put up fliers, made food, brought to studio space, paid for musicians all hoping people will show up. So I am headed to see if they do and to support, of course. - Hello, hello. - Hi. - Welcome. - Are you looking fresh? - Hello. - Are you looking good? (laughing) - Already, already with the run. - You right? - Yeah. - I wanna ask you how you're feeling. - I'm definitely feeling a little bit nervous 'cause I'm like, oh my gosh, who's coming? Who's coming? - Yeah. - And you know, since the day of, getting messages like, oh Lynn, I'm so sorry, I can't make it. And I'm just like, okay, okay, it's fine. It's okay, we're gonna just come eat snacks, sit, and then the musicians are gonna play music and then we're gonna get a little, we'll be seeing, I don't know, but we're gonna have a great time. - So things are starting a bit slow, but people are trickling in. And while it is mostly family members, two people came across the event online and just showed up. And Lynn and her co-organizer, Fadia, are very excited, but they're playing it cool. - Yay, oh my god, you did it. - Let's do this. (laughing) - I'm gonna cry, why am I crying? - I'm not crying. - I'm crying. - I'm crying. - You are. It's okay to cry. I've never seen two people so excited to have two people come to their bed. (laughing) - We won, we won, we won. - Absolutely. (upbeat music) Trevor? - Yes. - Guess how many people came in the end? - 120. - Oh my gosh. (laughing) - You wish. (laughing) - You're about 100 people up. It was around 20. - That's still a good turnout. - Yeah, and I think most importantly, Lynn is happy. - I'm feeling really good. - Yeah. - Yeah, I'm feeling really good. And everybody's been saying good things, so. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah, I just have a big smile on my face, 'cause I'm really happy. That's all I can say. It's a success to me. - Yeah. - Yeah, I'm really glad. I'm really glad. Even though it's not 30 people, that's cool. - Yeah. - It's good people. - Yeah. - Yeah. (laughing) - Has it made you think any differently? I know it's still happening, but has many think a bit differently about, 'cause you are, like you said, you're not someone who always wants to put it out there until people like, hey, come do this thing. - Yeah, actually, I'm encouraged. I'm definitely encouraged, because if the little that I did brought out this amount of people, I think I'm ready to do more to bring out even more people next time. I'm saying this is worth the stress. I'm the uncertainty in all of it. Yeah. - Okay. - Yeah. - Yeah. (laughing) - I'm proud of you, though. - Yeah, I think it's a nice vibe. - Thank you. - Thank you, thank you. I'm really happy. (upbeat music) ♪ We're on our way ♪ ♪ We're on our way ♪ ♪ We're on our way ♪ - This is the moment when we came apart at times. (laughing) I am very happy to tell you that is not true. But she did it. And then after that, she said, I'm okay. I'm okay to hang up my hat, but I know that that's in me if I need. (upbeat music) Thanks to the now or never team of producers, Sarah Tate, Sam Rauit Johannes, Jessica Singer, Bridget Forbes, I'm E.P. Chihuahua. - And I'm Trevor Deneen. - I'll see you next time. (upbeat music) - For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca/podcasts.