What will bring visitors back to the Science Museum of Minnesota?

I'm Maggie Smith, host of The Slowdown, where each morning I invite you to step away from your to-do list and spend a few minutes with a moment of reflection and a poem from both beloved and emerging voices. Make it part of your morning ritual on a walk over breakfast or while you get ready for the day. It's a daily moment of pause in a world that never stops moving. Find the slowdown wherever you listen to podcasts. Good morning, I'm Angela Davis and you're listening to MPR News. Thanks for joining us today. The Science Museum of Minnesota in St. Paul has wowed generations with their dinosaur fossils. I mean, maybe you've seen its 80-foot-long restored skeleton of a deplaticus. And dinosaur bones aren't the only thing happening there. Other spectacular exhibits have explored everything from outer space to the history of race. And there's an omnitheer there. But these days fewer people are visiting. Far fewer. The Science Museum is struggling to lure people back after the COVID-19 pandemic. Attendance is now half of what it was in 2019. Half. That means revenue is way down. To cut costs, the Science Museum has ended its summer camps and laid off employees. So this hour, I'm talking about what's going on, what's contributed to the drop in visitors and how is the museum trying to sell more people on its collections, exhibits, and programs. As I talk with my guests, I want to hear from you too. I want you to call in. Tell us your favorite memory of visiting the Science Museum of Minnesota here in St. Paul. And if you don't go to museums or find yourself going less often, tell us why. Call in. Pick up the phone. Call us at 651-227-6000. Again, that number is 651-227-6000. Or you can call us at 800-242-2828. Let's bring in our guests, Alison Ripple. Brown is here. Alison has been the president and CEO of the Science Museum of Minnesota since 2016. She was previously Chief of Staff at the California Academy of Sciences in San Francisco. Alison, welcome to the program and so nice to meet you. Thank you. I look forward to our conversation today. Thank you. Calline Dillenschneider is joining us too. No, Calline is the founder and managing member of Impact Experience. That's a market research firm that works with cultural organizations, including museums, zoos, aquariums, and science centers. And she is joining us from Chicago today. Hi, Calline. Thank you for your time. Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to this important conversation. Thanks again. Great. Me too. I mean, I have memories and I really want our listeners to have some appreciation for what we're talking about. This is not your typical museum by any means, Alison. And so for people who haven't been to the Science Museum of Minnesota, again, here in downtown St. Paul, if you haven't been for a while or maybe you have never been there, I want you, Alison, to paint a picture for us. What would I find when I walk in the doors and into the lobby? Let's start there. Well, the lobby is a fun space because we have T-rex there and that's usually where people go first. We also have an experience where you can see how you pump up the and how you can get ping pong balls to go up into these nets that we built up above. And then there are lots of art installations in there that were from when we first moved into our location almost 30 years ago. They're beautiful. We have cranes that are flying above up above. And those are made from recycled materials by an artist. And if you're really, really feeling fun, if you go into the left, you can go up the musical stairs. And I think they're still there. They are, they are of course still there. And I'm still waiting for somebody to do a really fantastic TikTok about that. And why you go up, I think you'll see one of the best views in the state. There are many floors, there are many floors. There are lots of floors and it's just a fun experience and beautiful view of the riverfront. Yes. So the location right there on the river and what's inside the museum that explains the history and more about the Mississippi River? Yeah. Well, actually the first gallery you go into is about the Mississippi River and about water. And this is a state that loves water and we need to protect it. So this is what's why it's fun to go into there. And you can find all sorts of things to do hands on. You can find the ancient beaver that just became our state fossil. And it's really an exciting place where you can explore and gauge. And there's an omnitheater there as well. And it is, that's also on that first level you walk into. And that was the second omnitheater in the nation to open up. So my memory is going there as a parent with my children who are now in their 20s, but on field trips. But also my family, we had a membership. So that's where we would go on weekends or for birthday parties or if it's just too cold to be outside. It's someplace that my family had a membership to and I've been many times. So when you mentioned the musical, the stairs, right? I have memories of that. It's truly like walking into a different world, an immersive experience. And that's all very deliberate. Yes, it is. Although what's interesting is the Science Museum started as a natural history museum. So it means we have scientists on staff. And then probably in the 80s, some one of our trustees went to the exploratorium and came back saying we have to be more hands on. And we are. So we're this really fun combination of scientists doing real scientific work and all these hands-on experiences. And that science shows that's the best way to learn science is hands-on. So there's research that backs that. Yes, absolutely. And our scientists do really important work kind of how do life get here? How do we keep it here? So the museum has been around since 1907. Obviously it's grown. It's changed. Many people remember back in 1999. That's when the museum moved into its current spot. They're overlooking the Mississippi River, a huge building, a modern new building. It was such a big deal at that time. And why was that? Just because it was just such a big upgrade. Transformation. And it was the beginning of thinking about how does St. Paul embrace the river? If you remember, the rivers used to be polluted. So many cities turn their backs to the river and use them as a way to dispose of waste. And we really started thinking about how do we protect our rivers and embrace them. And that was the beginning of this process of thinking how does St. Paul embrace the river and think about it as an asset as opposed to a way to dispose of things. Now you left a job in California. You were at the California Academy of Sciences, prestigious organization. Why were you so excited to leave that job to come here? Well, I've been there a long time. There are 17 years. I was there for a major transformation of $500 million dollar project. It was very exciting and fun. And I wanted to actually run, become a CEO of a science center. And when I had the opportunity to interview here, this is one of the top science centers in the nation. We're doing, I'm not doing the staff are doing fantastic work, really trying to transform systems and make certain that we inspire, spark passion for everybody to see themselves in science. Colleen, nationally, like describe how the science museum of Minnesota, how is it viewed by folks in other states? I mean, what is its reputation nationally, Colleen? Yeah, Allison is not exaggerating. The Science Museum of Minnesota is nationally recognized as one of the leading science centers or science organizations in the United States. And it exceeds their reputation in terms for people who haven't visited beyond Minneapolis. We even see that their onsite experience is kind of making waves in really meaningful ways in the United States. And it's an institution that several other cultural institutions are looking to, as they make changes and move forward during the challenging times that museums are facing right now. So, so let's, let's get to what has prompted this conversation today. I mentioned some troubling developments in the introduction, like the decline in attendance that you've experienced. It drops significantly in the last few years. So, Allison, walk us through what has been happening. When did this decline start and what has contributed to it? There are a number of factors that are contributed to it. And one of them, of course, is the trend of people staying home. And that's a trend that was starting before the pandemic, but the pandemic really accelerated that trend. And the, we all, we, people are creatures of habit and our habits shifted. And that is really hard to get people to leave the couch. And so we need to make certain we are relevant, exciting, and people remember what a fantastic time they have when they come to the Science Museum. So that's our responsibility. And the exact numbers, this is correct, right? Attendance is now half of what it was in 2019, 2019 being before the pandemic had. Correct. How does that sit with the staff and with you? It is, it is devastating. I mean, there's no other way to say it. Our joy is to be see people on the museum floor, have a fantastic time with their family and friends. That's the number one reason why people go to museums is for that shared experience. And more recently, the Surgeon Federal Immigration Enforcement Officers kept a lot of people home for various reasons. And how much did that affect attendance? That dropped our attendance about 30%. And that from the prior year. And that's projected to continue to have an impact into next year because it feeds into this perception that the cities are not safe. And that's St. Paul and Minneapolis. Yes. And that's a perception that's not reality. Actually crime is down below where it was in 2019. But people perceive it as a not a safe place to go. Even though we have a parking ramp that's attached to the museum. And you know, we can't advertise saying it's safe. The cities are safe, but that is a perception out in the suburbs. So a few of you visitors, less revenue, how has that drop in attendance affected your budget? It is devastated at a budget. It is really dropped by millions of dollars. And that's on top of what's happened at the federal level. So what happened at the federal level? When Trump came to office, he shut down a lot of the funding that has gone to museums. We were very successful in getting federal grants to support the science that we do, to support the education that we do. We averaged about three to three and a half million dollars each year and federal grants doing very important work. Next year, we estimate that we'll be under $900,000. And Colleen, put this into context for us, is what she's described as this a common experience for other museums across the country. Oh, yes, absolutely. If you think about it, we're really given the time of the pandemic, especially. We're at a moment in time in the United States where we're facing all at once huge generational shifts. We're seeing, you know, the baby boomer generation is aging. We're seeing millennials are having fewer children, which is decreasing the number of families in the United States and people who have kids, which very much impacts attendance to museums. So there's this big generational shift. There's a huge technological shift. I need not mention AI, but even just thinking about how much has changed just during our time during the pandemic and how easy it is to stay home and watch Oscar-winning movies from our couches now, which is a thing we weren't able to do as easily before. And we're also facing huge government and policy changes. And all of this underpins massive economic changes that are taking place in the United States. So there's this kind of hurricane of major changes happening and how people think, how they make decisions and how they behave. And it's happening all at once. And the changes keep happening rather swiftly and that's posed really great changes or changes, challenges, excuse me, for museums throughout the United States. Well, we're already getting lots of phone calls, Allison and Colleen. So I want to bring some of them into the conversation. If you're just joining us, we're talking about the science museum of Minnesota in St. Paul and what's been happening there the last few years and even more recently also happening around the country. The museum is seeing far fewer visitors, a drop in revenue, shrinking funding, again, other museums across the nation as well. As I talk with our guests, I want to hear from you too. Colleen, tell us about your favorite memory of visiting the science museum of Minnesota. Or you can call us at 800-2422-2828. Let's bring in our listeners in St. Paul. Elizabeth is listening to us this morning and calling in. Good morning, Elizabeth. What did you want to tell us as we talk about the science museum? Good morning. I fall in the category of not going to the museum as much anymore. And the reason for that, unfortunately, I think the cost of the area, the tickets, I know there are programs for reduced tickets prices. I don't qualify for those, but I also find the cost of the ticket a little high. I believe it's higher than the Field Museum. And there's so many great exhibits, but a lot of them are the ones that I remember from being a kid. And I would just like to see the exhibits change more because I do have so many good memories of the science museum. Thank you, Elizabeth there in St. Paul. Cost is a barrier, she says, Allison. I was looking at the museum's website yesterday and searching for the cost of admission. And here's what I found. Admission for one adult, one adult is $35. $35. Membership for a family of four for a whole year is $180 a year. And we've done so many programs on, so many conversations on this show about how financially strapped many families are right now. Grocery prices are high. Gas prices are high. Rant is high. And the living has increased. And so in the last year, there have also been so many layoffs. So let's talk about this cost being a barrier. That's what's keeping people from coming as frequently as they used to. How are you and your staff talking about that? It's for conversation number always looking to using market research to determine how our prices should be set. And we also as Elizabeth noted, we have a number of access programs for individuals to use about a third of our visitors come in through our access programs. And we would like to have more using those access programs. Those come in at $3. And we also have access membership programs as well. But $35, how do we arrive there? I didn't used to be $35 a person. Is that because of the cost of just maintaining the museum? No, that's through market research and talking visitors and potential visitors. We don't do that analysis. We use an outside firm to do that analysis of how do they value their visit to the size museum. But do you understand why that would be a lot? I mean, just a couple without the kids. That'd be $70 just to walk through the door. So how are you thinking about or understanding why that would keep people from coming? They simply can't afford it. Yeah. And people have to make the decision about what they value and where they put their priorities and we understand that. So you don't see prices going down. No. No. And everything's always on the table. Kelly, what are you seeing with the admission costs? Like why fewer people are going to some museums and other institutional institutions? They just can't afford the ticket. Yeah. That's something we're watching in the United States. What's interesting is looking at some background at impacts experience. We're tracking 224 visitor serving organizations in the United States. And we are closely monitoring ticket prices and perceives access challenges and the reputation of institutions. And what's interesting is that from a data standpoint, the Science Museum of Minnesota is priced in a way that is squarely on par with how other science and museums are priced relative to their--are optimally priced relative to their markets. So it's to the extent that the Science Museum of Minnesota may be perceived as too expensive may also--we could also extend that argument to museums and general and science institutions. And I think a lot of that comes back to exactly what Allison was saying, which is that right now there are increased expectations on these institutions. And there's an imperative to maximize revenues in order to reinvest in affordable access programs. So we know that those people can't afford to come. It's not a matter of, you know, if only it was $3 off, then I'd be able to come. There is a subset of folks, you know, in Minneapolis and also throughout the United States for who even $5 is too much of a barrier. So institutions like the Science Museum of Minnesota need to be able to leverage those folks who love the institution, those members, those donors, those regular visitors in order to reinvest those funds back in affordable access programs for those people who truly want to visit the museum and truly can't afford it. And one thing that's kind of interesting that we're monitoring very closely about the Science Museum of Minnesota is that we have--this is very nerdy, but we have a metric that we monitor closely for institutions in the United States called attitude affinities. And that's our nerdy measurement for welcoming to people like me. And in fact, the Science Museum of Minnesota is in the 91st percentile amongst all visitor serving organizations in the United States for its welcoming perception. And a lot of that is due to the access programs, the exhibits, the great exhibits that are taking place at Science Museum of Minnesota. So it really underscores that this is a big conversation. It's an important conversation. It's a meaningful one. But it gives you an idea of why attendance is down. Because people have choices. Like, there are places they can go that are free. And then obviously, you know, now today you can get--it's not the same, but you can get--if you have a curiosity about something, you can watch a video of it. Oh, and you don't even need to leave your house to your point. You can get incredible information from your couch with a remote control to your point. Let's take another phone call as we talk about the Science Museum of Minnesota. 6-5-1-2-2-7-6-1000 is the number to call or 800-24-228-28. Minneapolis. Laura is with us. Hi, Laura. What did you want to tell us or ask? Yeah. So my family, we have a 10-year-old, a 7-year-old, a 2-year-old. We were long-time members. Love the Science Museum. My kids adore it. They can do some of the live shows by heart. And we would go many times a year. And--but the summer camp programming was like a key aspect of like what was beloved to our family. And with the loss of that this year, we've ultimately decided to take our membership dollars to other institutions that are able to provide that sort of wrap around engagement for our family year round. I just--I can't stress enough how much the summer camps were some of the best in the cities. And it's sort of-- It just was a real devastation to our family for that loss. And it is led us to coming to the museum now less or not at all. I don't know. - So you were, you enjoyed the summer camps, valued them and when they were no longer an option and we were gonna talk about that, that's one of the things they had to cut. Then you stopped going at all. So explain that to me. - Yeah, we let our, we let our membership, we didn't renew it this year. A piece of the membership is that you get really access to those camps, you get to discount off those camps. So it's a piece of the puzzle as a parent figuring out summer camps. Where am I gonna put, where am I gonna be a member to help me get my kids into the summer camps they wanna go to? And you know, it's a family, there's only so many memberships I have the budget for. - Right, and those summer camps, excellent programming but very expensive also. - Yeah, they were the ones, the, you know, the expensive one we sprung for each summer. But honestly, they were the highest quality of anything our kids did. - All right, thank you Laura for sharing that. Allison, let's talk about what you've had to do in order to cope with the drop in revenue and summer camps, those Science Museum of Minnesota for many years offered summer programming. And then last summer you all announced that that would be the last offering. Tell me about that decision. Like why did the summer camps have to go? - Yeah, it was a very hard choice to make and I appreciate what the caller said and we took that into account as well. So the summer camps were some of the highest price summer camps in the region and the cost equaled, the revenues were received, were just about covered the direct costs of the camp. - 'Cause you have to have staff and just all. - High, higher staff, we have about 60 staff members each summer and we were reducing costs everywhere. So we were reducing costs in human resources, reducing costs in facilities. And both of those areas is a big burden on them as well when we have summer camps, love summer camps and we appreciate the staff who made those so successful. And so that was the one decision we have to make 'cause we have to cut everywhere. Our revenues used to be around $42 million where now down around $31 million. - And is it surprising to hear Laura who again a faithful member because she lost that summer camp opportunity, it kind of has sired her on just the experience of the museum completely. - No, and we understood that that would be an issue and we appreciate her tender about that. - Also on the list of actions that the science museum has had to take in order to address the drop in revenue, you laid people off. Last summer the science museum laid off 43 people, about 13% of the workforce at the time, including scientists, and you've mentioned the summer camp staff and people who staff the ticket counter that had to be difficult. - Yes, it's always difficult. People who work at the science museum love the mission, love what they're doing, are passionate about being successful and making certain everybody has a fantastic time. As Colleen mentioned, we have a very high visitor satisfaction rating, but we cannot continue running with the deficit. We have used about $16 million of unrestricted funds during the pandemic to support staffing and we're at the point where we can't spend any more of our unrestricted funds and it is a very tough decision to make because we have fantastic staff doing important and critical work, but we have to balance our budget and it is the worst decision to have to make. I don't mean that for a sympathy, but these staff have been fantastic. - And so as we look at where we are, well, looking back again, I have in my notes in 2020 during the COVID-19 pandemic, the museum had to lay off nearly 160 people and then in 2023, 15 people. This trend that we're seeing, I mean, do you see more layoffs or furloughs like right now in this moment, like what are we looking at now? - We have staff, some staff are furloughs right now, we have partial furloughs running and I'll let you get what that means when you're furloughed. - So we're doing either four hours a week or eight hours every other week to reduce our expenses. Senior leaders have taken, I have a 25% pay cut, I've had that for a couple of years and other senior leaders have taken salary reductions as well and we're looking, how can we reduce our non-salar expenses in any ways that we can? We're trying to be as creative and ways to reduce the impact on staff. Staff are about over 60% of our costs and so it's just a really challenging time for us. - And I don't know if I mentioned this, you also had a lot of federal funding. - Yes. - And what did that, how much and what did that mean? - Yeah, so we've gone from about three and a half million down to under 900,000 for next fiscal year that comes with overhead costs so we get, we lost probably one and a half million dollars while we get overhead rate for our federal funding which helps support the overhead that we have, human resources, the building, and so that's a significant loss of funding that helps support our operations. - Colleen, what can you tell us, how have museums around the nation, how have they dealt, how have they coped with their drop in revenue, what have they had to cut? Are we also seeing layoffs and other cuts like this in programming? - Yes, absolutely, significant cuts in programming. And we are seeing layoffs. One thing that's worth mentioning about the science or the cultural sector in the United States is that some organization types are fairing better than others in their post pandemic recovery. For instance, we saw during the pandemic, Americans changed up their behaviors a bit. We saw that people who were more interested in going to art museums and science museums were instead exchanging their membership and getting a membership to the zoo because the door is allows for that kind of freedom of movement and we've seen that durability in those behaviors. So we're seeing that some institution types like zoos are really overperforming or performing at their market potential, but then other institutions depending on their audiences are really suffering and are not reaching those pre-pandemic levels and some aren't even close. And amongst those institution types that are suffering most, those are science museums and science centers, botanic gardens are suffering a bit, children's museums, symphony orchestras and other life performance like ballet and opera. So amongst institution types, those ones are the ones where we're really seeing the most struggle. And the most need for people who support those institution types to come forward as much as we're able to and show how important they are to our communities by way of our support. - I wanna take more phone calls from our listeners. As we talk about the science museum of Minnesota and challenges that they are facing right now, 651-227-6000 is the number to call or 800-242-2828. In White Bear Lake, we have Dan with us. Dan, thank you for holding on. What would you wanna tell us about the science museum of Minnesota? - Yeah, so we have four kids. We've got a seven year old, four year old, two year old, and then a newborn and we love the science museum. We always do the membership. We try to pay for experiences instead of toys. And I'll just say some of the experiences, like the ship that's on the roof, there's no better view than the ship on the roof of the science museum for our kids. They really love the sports science exhibit and the basement. And they can race athletes. I think Adam Sealen is one of the athletes. It's in the basement. The dinosaur exhibit, the piano stairs, which was there when I was a kid, and I'll also say that the food is sneaky good. And so we always do the membership, encourage other people to do it, especially if you've got a larger family, you really are getting a lot. And it can be not just a one time thing, but a reoccurring thing. - So Dan, as you listen to us talk about a budget crisis, I mean, how does that land with you? How does that make you feel? - Yeah, so instead of buying toys and filling our causes with plastic, we like to have experiences. And so what we like to do is buy memberships or experiences. - I mean, the budget crisis at the museum is experiencing. It's decline in visitors, decline in revenue. You know, they're having to make some difficult decisions. Does that make you sad? Does it surprise you? - Yeah, it makes me sad, absolutely. Because I think that I look at my own childhood current up in Minnesota, going to the science museum on field trips was a key component of my childhood. And so I want my kids to have that experience. - You want to talk? - And that's why I hope that people really see like the value in visiting the science museum, getting a membership at the science museum. And also say for people who are maybe hesitant from outside the Twin Cities to come into the Twin Cities, the science museum is very easy to get to. It's just right off 35, he is back, great parking. He gets easy in and out of the building. It's really a setup for a great experience. - All right, Dan and White Bear Lake. Thank you. One more phone call before we take a news break. And then we'll take more of your calls in St. Paul, Jennifer's on the phone. Jennifer, thank you for calling in. What did you want to tell us about the science museum of Minnesota? - Hi, thank you for taking my call. I'm rooting for the science museum. I'm just, I'm, I've, it's been influential for me in my life. Since the 1970s, when I used to go with my family to the Saturday morning club house, we'd fill the Chimera theater to the brim with just enthusiastic, probably elementary school kids. And I just remember the, just how this contagious enthusiasm as they bring in speakers. And we would all go there together and define ourselves as scientists. And I think that that was incredibly influential as I grew up. And then my parents would take us to the, to talk in the evenings for adults as well. And I remember when Bob Ballard spoke about the hydro thermal vents that he had just discovered in the bottom of the ocean. - And so Jennifer, at a time when now, a lot of young people, like the things that they're Cheers! about. Again, they can watch videos of it. They don't have to be in a museum to learn about science. What do you think about that? Just the different ways of experiencing education? Oh, I just think going someplace, you know, I learned which direction was south on the freeway because every Saturday we would go south on the freeway to the science museum. We would be together in this space and we would share this experience together. And I think that, like I said, that contagious enthusiasm was just golden. It really inspired me to stick with you, those memories. Yeah, well, as being together in that kind of space is really important. All right, well, our phone lines are full. So I'm going to let you go. Thank you, Jennifer, for calling in. A lot more phone calls to take from listeners. Our phone lines are full. But we are talking about the Science Museum of Minnesota in St. Paul and what's happening there the last few years. Museum is seeing far-fue visitors or drop-in revenues shrinking funding as our other museums around the country. Back to our phone lines, we've got Jean on the phone and Bloomington. Hey, Jean, what do you want to let us know? Yeah, hi. I really mean we want to give kudos to the Science Museum. My friend, this is a very good friend. Almost like a sister to me, is autistic. She's a regular visitor there. Has been for very many years because it's such a welcoming place for her. It feels like home to her. She does take part in, like she has the low cost membership because of her financial assistance stuff. So I think she pays a very low price for her yearly membership. And I get a membership. Regularly because of that. And I spend, you know, we go there a lot together. They've done such great work. I think with their staff and their volunteers on being able to interact with autistic people because she, you know, she does have some challenging behavior things. But it's very noticeable the training that they do with their staff. Thank you, Jean. I appreciate you for that. So adults go. So not just families with little kids. Adults go to the Science Museum. Yes, I do. And we are, thank you, Jean. And we are working to inspire more adults to come. In fact, tonight is club science. It's an adult only event from six to 11. Come and we're turning the lobby into a disco. We'll have a DJ there and come and have a fun time with adults. And we're doing more programming around that every Friday. So is an adult night as well. So as we look at solutions, what are some of the things you're doing differently than you've done in the past because you know you need to, you've got to do something different. You bet. And actually the Science Museum has done that for almost 120 year history. It keeps evolving and changing. We've had seven different names. We've been in five different locations. We're not moving. But just want to say we always respond to what does the community want? What do they need? How do we need to evolve and change to meet those needs? And this is how we're evolving is really what do adults want? How can we respond to that while being true to science? So looking at events that you can have there that would draw more people and more regularly. Yes. And I want to take a moment to the top. This is just not a metro area, a Twin Cities metro area attraction. The Science Museum of Minnesota has statewide relationships. So let's talk a little bit about what is happening in rural communities and how folks in greater Minnesota are interacting with the Science Museum. Great. Yeah. Thanks for the question. We actually reach our goals to reach all theities, having counties with our STEM education, so Science Technology Engineering math programs. We are educators go out and bands and they will work in a region from maybe be there for a week or 10 days. I won't go to schools and they do assemblies. They do go into classes. They do teacher professional training. And schools also come to us from those regions and have field trips as somebody mentioned. They've come in on a field trip. And then we're also received federal funding. So we did receive from federal funding to set up five STEM hubs with five other organizations throughout greater Minnesota to expand the reach. And they'll actually deliver the STEM programming because they know the community's best. So we're really a statewide resource. Our scientists do work all around Minnesota. And we because we have scientists who study water. And how do we keep water? How do we keep it clean? What's happening within our lakes? Why is there these harmful algal bloom? So which are really dangerous, particularly to dogs. And how do we study this water and make certain that we people love their lake? But many lakes are challenged. So as we talk about the educators and the work that is happening with staff members who are going out all over the state, providing science education to young people, are these possible cuts we're looking at if this financial crisis does not improve? Like is everything on the table of in terms of like services that may have to be downsized if the the budget crisis isn't, you know, it doesn't improve. I can't say that I have to say everything's always on the table, but we would really look to safeguard our work around our with our youth. We also do workforce development. United States is one of the lowest funders of youth of developed nations. And youth were really harmed during the pandemic. Staying home was good for a few for some youth, but for most youth. It was not a great way for them to be educated. And then the metro search piled on again and harmed youth. So we will look for ways to continue our programming for youth and particularly youth who have limited resources. Yeah, I didn't realize you had educators who actually travel the state, getting into schools that may not have access to, you know, all of what you all are offering here in the Twin Cities. Yeah, not everybody can come down to everybody can come here, right? 651-227-6000, the number to call. As we talk about the science museum of Minnesota, in Staples, Minnesota, let's talk to Jennifer, who's on the line. Jennifer, thank you for waiting. What do you want to tell us? Hey, I grew up in a suburb of the Twin Cities. My dad was a high school science teacher. And in my childhood, we had a membership to the science museum. And those are some of my core memories. Making trips as a family to the science museum, it was magical. I have vivid memories of some of the exhibits. And I felt like a VIP with this membership and the extra special thing it was to go see a movie at the Ami Theater. And now as a mom grown up with my own family, I live in rural Minnesota. But we've made a few trips to the science museum and the magic has not been lost. I just love seeing some of the same exhibits that I remember as a child. It inspired my dad as a science teacher. It inspired me as a kid. And now I love seeing the magic in my kid's eyes. So I just hope you guys don't go anywhere. All right. That's Jennifer and Staples in Egan. Peggy's on the phone. Hey, Peggy, what did you want to tell us about the science museum of Minnesota? Well, first of all, I'm a big fan. But it did ring untrue to me when I heard, and maybe I misheard this, that the $35 for a adult admission was kind of a comment among the science centers in the United States. And I don't think that's the problem you should be looking at. I think it's local. I mean, and there's always local national. You have to regard it all. But who do you want to come to the museum? How do you reach them? And how do you sustain their return visits? And membership is great. But if you can't afford the membership, how do you bring those people in? So it's a really complex problem. And I understand it from being working in the museums too. But I really think it's a different perspective that is needed to solve the problem. And that's just my, my, you know, Peggy and Egan and Kulley now go to you for this. You're at a market research firm working with museums, working with the science museum. You know, what do you say to Peggy about this? Like what are the, what's the, what is the strategy moving forward that that moves the museum out of the space, particularly when the cost of admission is a real barrier for people? If I will say Peggy is absolutely right in that it's a new and new us and complicated situation with a lot of inputs. And a lot of people are coming to museums in the United States with different concerns, different barriers and different backgrounds. And sometimes it can be hard to distinguish so from a, from a museum perspective. It can be difficult to distinguish that high propensity visitor, that person who is willing to pay to have a great experience and support the museum and leverage, you know, that revenue so we can you know, reinvest in some of our incredible programming while also decreasing a price point for a museum such that the museum isn't able to sustain itself. So to your point Peggy, it's a balancing act of membership, admission, local, you know, local promotions, local advantages or advantages for different, different subgroups that need to be represented at a given museum. And indeed, there's a lot that goes into that. I know that's something I can, I let Allison speak to that more specifically for the science museum in Minnesota, but indeed, that's something that museums in the United States are grappling with. And you'll see a lot as you look at the museums in the United States. A lot of museums are right now. experimenting with variable pricing. So it'll cost more to go on a weekend than it costs to go during the week. And all of this is an effort to overcome some of the challenges that museums are facing in the United States with these higher costs and financial issues. So there's really this push and pull of meeting more funds in order to baseline satisfy audiences, bring people in the door, keep on great and terrific staff, while also engaging audiences and keeping them, keeping them coming back, keep in our lights on, but also meeting the ever-evolving expectations of audiences. - I listen to anything more that you want to say about what strategies you and your staff members, your board members are looking at to turn this around. - Yeah, well the long-term strategy is we have been in our building 30 years, beautiful location, and if you've ever lived in a home that long, we need to do some updates. And so we are looking at how do we update our facility and make certain that it is, as I said, kind of at the opening, inspiring enough to get people to leave their couch. - Right, but that costs money. - Yes it does. So we will look at fundraising. - All right, another phone call from a listener, in Blaine, that's Kelly. On the line, "Hi Kelly, what do you want to tell us about the Science Museum of Minnesota?" - Hi, I just wanted to give a shout out to the reciprocity program that the Science Museum has with some other museums around the country. We've definitely, as we've considered our membership, we, or a family, for we like to support our local Science Museum, and it's certainly a value, like if we're traveling, you know, even to Chicago, I think we've used our reciprocity with the Adler Planetarium. And I just think that's a great program, and I just wanted to make sure people are aware of it. - So I want to make sure, I understand, if I have a membership to the Science Museum of Minnesota, then I, if I'm traveling to another city or state, that membership will get me into that museum for free. - Yes, that's been our experience with a number of different museums. There's a website that you can use to look up, whether it has reciprocity. And for us, that's definitely factored in, as we've considered renewing our membership, is that value of also being able to get into other museum science museums in the country for-- - Thank you, Kelly. That's a value that maybe a lot of people don't know about. - Yeah, thank you. Thank you for bringing that up, Kelly. Yes, it's through the Association of Science Technology Centers, and if they belong to the museum belongs to that, then there's reciprocity. Of course, we're a member. In Cottage Grove, Ted is listening this morning. Hi, Ted, what did you want to tell us as we talk about the Science Museum? - Hi, guys. Good morning. Thank you for taking my call, and thank you, MPR, and the museum for all the important work that you do. I have just two quick questions. Does the museum have a sense of how much the attendance may be getting hurt by science denying politicians and influencers? And my second question is, is the museum-- could the museum try courting some of the high profile science communicators like Dr. Tyson or Dr. Cox to come and do a public event at the museum? I would jump out of my seat to come to either one of them. - Ted's-- - I don't know, my friends. - Ted's got ideas for events. So a couple things. Science, belief in science, we saw this during the high the pandemic has become under attack. Is that playing a role in interest in visiting the Science Museum? - I don't-- maybe that's a question Colin could answer. It's certainly playing a role in our funding at the federal level. And I don't know if it's driving people away from the Science Museum, but it's effective funding. - It's effective funding. And it's making what we do even more important. We need more people going into science and seeing that science is a way to improve lives and on the event's suggestion, high profile people. Would that bring folks there? - I hope it would. And we need to find a way then to bring them back. Let's take another phone call. Let's see, in Lionel Lakes, Jessica is listening. Hello Lionel Lakes, hi, Jessica. What did you want to tell us? - Hi, Angela. Thanks for taking my call, love this show. I'm a genetic counselor in my husband's a scientist. - Oh, cool. - Well, that is very important to us. And we've had a membership to the Science Museum in the past. And I just wanted to share one of our favorite memories, which is watching our nephew in the Sportsology section race against the T-Rex. (laughing) - Explain what that involved. - So there's kind of like an interactive section of sportsology. And there's a big, what is it called? Like TV in the background where you can race against different sports professionals or T-Rex or just another friend. And we love watching our nephew kind of race against those different options. - And you know from your own education, you say you're a genetic counselor, your husband's a scientist that there's just something different about having that immersive experience. And then I guess having exposure young. - Yeah, yeah. It's really nice to be able to watch young folks be able to interact with science in a fun way. And that kind of carries through to their education and their love for science in the future. - Thank you Jessica. Colleen, what is going to turn this around? Not just for the Science Museum of Minnesota, but museums and zoos and aquariums all across the nation, all of these cultural institutions seeing a decline in visitors and revenue. Are there any success stories? Is anybody doing something differently that seems to be working, Colleen? - Right, that goes a great question. That's the million dollar question literally. It's a great question. We're seeing a lot of variation right now. We're seeing that some institutions that are, you know, as we're seeing a lot of changes in that those institutions that are in kind of major metro markets that have a great deal of tourism that aren't as badly impacted by a lack of international tourism right now, those institutions that have macro environments that are very resilient are the ones that are amongst those that are performing at least at opportunity right now. So the macro environment is hugely important for the success of any museum. And that, of course, is changing throughout the United States. It changes with current happenings, taking place all over at any given time and in ways that were a lot more durable in previous years and are a lot less durable now. So it's going to be leveraging our macro environments, but in doing that, we need to find ways museums, we need to find ways to have sustainable funding and sustainable revenue sources that aren't as dependent upon only one thing. So for instance, only on attendance in revenue because things can happen like the pandemic and then we use it where things can happen like, you know, an issue can happen in our area that can really decrease attendance. Or there's a crime event, right? - Yeah, Kelly, I'm sorry, we're out of time. As we keep seeing, we just, we don't know what's around the corner. We've been talking about the Science Museum of Minnesota with its president and CEO, Alison Rimple Brown, as well as Colleen Dylan Schneider, who is the managing member of Impact Experience, which is a market research firm that works with museums. Thank you for your time and thank you to all of our listeners who shared your questions and your memories. This conversation was produced by Maya Backstrom. Be safe, we'll talk again soon. (upbeat music) Thanks for listening to a recording of my live radio show on MPR News. I reminder that if you wanna catch my show in real time, tune in and call in weekdays at 9 a.m. (upbeat music)