What Went Wrong with Willie, Part 1

[MUSIC] >> Welcome to On the Bench, we have the beginning of a special series that we're going to bring out in the next. I guess a couple of days, part one, guys, you ready for this? It's what went wrong with Willie Taggart. What went wrong with Willie? The behind the scenes of how Josh, Newberg, Christopher Nean, myself viewed and covered the very short and unsuccessful Willie Taggart era of Florida State. Gentlemen, welcome to On the Bench, thanks for joining me today. How are we feeling about this podcast coming up? >> I can't wait. This is something that we were going to do over the summer. But we sped it up now because we got time. And to be fair, we did one with Jimbo. What was the one you and Chris really did? >> We were much harsher with Jimbo and I think we're going to be for this one. And it was what the hell. And it was a series that Chris and I did one full episode. And I had Wayne on to do an episode. Then Josh, you and I kind of did like a sub episode of it as well. >> Yeah. It's something people were very interested in. We've had people on the message board. I had someone right before actually we started recording, sliding my DMs and say I think it'd be great to do a Willie Taggart episode now when things are slow and things are slow for us. I want this to be a transparent podcast. I want it to be informative. I don't want this to be something that's taking shots at Willie. Josh recommended that I apologize. >> Just do it now. >> Generally, I think this is a perfect show for you just to go through and apologize and hedge every bit of the way. And people just get annoyed by it. They understand that you want to apologize, but just get it out of the way now. >> I apologize. And I'm also going to apologize for the production plan too, because right now I think we're planning on two episodes. Apart one and part two, it may turn into something that's three parts, which I know Chris is on a scale of one to ten. How excited are you Chris with the possibly- >> Seven. >> All right, let's get going. We want to talk about what was, again, a very brief, a dysfunctional tenure for Willie Taggart. One that was successful. Let's start at the top. And that's with optimism. All three of us, to be transparent, were extremely optimistic about Willie Taggart. We all thought it was a good hire. Even before the hire was made, we're covering the coaching search and hearing that Jimbo Fisher's leaving. And that was surreal to me. That Jimbo was leaving for Texas A&M. I didn't think it was going to happen. Josh was the only one who really thought it was going to happen. It happens. Josh, let's start off with once Jimbo leaves and we know Florida State is looking for options. Well, I'm told that Jimbo, as soon as he left, that Jimbo's agent, Jimmy Sexton, also Willie Taggart's agent, he's in Tallahassee. Chris and I saw Jimmy Sexton talking to Jimbo as he's turning him, it turns out to be his resignation letter. Chris, can we talk about what you did that day with the resignation letter? >> You mean when I followed Jimbo from the Morath Lake Center to West Caught to watch him walk in and officially resign? >> I was camping now, waiting to see what happens. And Chris was showing up a little bit after I got there really early. Chris was driving in and he pulls up and we're talking. And Chris goes, that's Jimmy Sexton, that's talking to Jimbo. And then Jimbo goes to his car, then what ensues is you just telling him, right? Like an old-fashioned detective? >> Yeah, I mean, I was looking for parking. I was in a wife's car. I'd been at a millionaire. The small airport in there, or Tallahassee's airport. >> You're 50. >> Who was coming and going. >> Your favorite place to hang out? >> Yeah, and when I came in, I'm banging a circle over by where the entrance, wait for the players and the parking spills and all that is, where Jimbo parks his track, where cage is always parked their cars. And Jimmy Sexton's a legally parked on the other side of the sidewalk with Jimbo leaning in the window, talking to him, and Jimmy sitting in the driver's seat. I'm banging that circle, and Jimbo is turning around from the SCV talking to his agent to get into his track, and he starts pulling on. I have to wait for him to pull out. And then I'm like, yeah, I'll see where he's going. So, I mean, if he went somewhere off campus or something, I'd probably wouldn't have stayed with him, but the fact that we went straight through campus, the West caught kind of knew what was going down. >> And so you follow him? Yeah, we didn't exactly know that there wasn't enough to report on it, but we knew something was like, there were literally pieces moving at that moment, and not long after, I think the Democrat broke, that Jimbo Fisher put in his resignation letter. Within an hour or so of that guys, I got from a really good source confirmation that Jimmy Sexton was still on campus, and had gone up to, I don't know if it was the Westcott building, was on campus negotiating for Willie Tagger's contract. So that was kind of the beginning stages of us knowing that that was FSU's target. Now, Josh, you were covering the entirety of the Willie Tagger hiring. Our editor at the time was talking almost immediately after Jimbo leaves saying, hey, you guys got to have a hot board ready. What was your response to our boss at that time? >> There was no hot board. We had pretty much decided, me, you, Chris, Brandon, everybody on the site decided that it's going to be Willie Tagger. And from the get go, we were really preparing for the hire. So we, I don't think we ever put out a hot board for that coaching search, did we? >> You told him, Willie Tagger is a hot board. >> That was it. Thank you, Chris. That was it. Josh can't even remember. It's like his memory is fading away for some reason. God knows why, organic reasons, I'm sure. So that was the response. We were confident that that was happening. I think later on, we learned that they did talk to some other players, or Gregus coaches, players in the coaching scene as well. James Franklin among one of them. And James Franklin's name obviously pops up during the Mike Norvel hiring. But we know that FSU zeroed in on Willie Tagger. Why were we optimistic, both of you guys? Why were we optimistic about the Willie Taggered hire? We all liked it. Nationally, most people liked it as well. We also, we knew it was going to go down because we all know different sources around Coach Tagger that had confirmed with us that if the offer weren't to come, he was going to take it. So that's why we followed him so closely as well. We knew the interest was mutual. Why were we optimistic? Because of what he did at USF, mainly. He also was recruiting really well at the time in Oregon. That's why Oregon fans were also bitter that he left. That they, it was unfinished business there. He was still building that. And USF, to an extent, was unfinished business. Although he did build them from taking over as a two or three-game winner, to building them into a team that ended up winning 11 games that year, that he ended up leaving for Oregon. There was a lot of optimism that he was going to bring in high-level recruits and keep it very simple. Get the ball in the playmaker's hands and let them do their thing on offense. That was what was being, was kind of being sold, is the high points of hiring a coach like Willie Tagger. Lithuos simplicity, bad asses, and war daddies. Chris, you were there with me covering the initial press conference. Willie crushed it, right? Like that was, that was, it's hard to not crush those press conferences. But the excitement of the fan base, I hadn't experienced that covering the team since 2013. Yeah, and it embodied a reason I think there was optimism, or at least people had excitement for the hire, was that it was a departure from what we have known for the last couple of years. The end of Jimbo wasn't enjoyable in any which way for fans, for media, for anybody else for Jimbo. It wasn't fun. And Willie was sort of this injection of excitement and fun. And we're going to do it in a different way, but we're going to have results. We're going to return to the days of Oregon where we're great, all those things. And it felt that way. You had the press conference, you felt like you walked out, chopping out in a sidewalk area in front with the police escort. It just had that feel of right now. And this is great. This is such a departure. They got this thing done quickly. The ball was rolling. Here we go. It's a weird circumstance with sitting head coach walking out on you. But everything's worked out. It's worked out better. We're going a great direction. That was a feeling. God knows it didn't work out that way. But that was a feeling within the moment. It did not. It did not. I want to be transparent for the podcast. I've said that already. This is kind of like me apologizing and hedging. I'll stop now, Josh. You had a relationship with Willie Taggart before he came to Florida State. Your coverage of him at USF. I mean, you live in St. Petersburg. You're involved with the team Tampa 7 on 7 teams. So obviously there was dynamic there. Everybody assumed a relationship meant that I had a good relationship with Willie Taggart. You did tell people were hanging out as living room jokingly when they asked you. Yeah, yeah. No, but at the time everything was great with coach Taggart and I. but it didn't start that way. I mean, it started. I'm not going to get into all the details, but when he first arrived at USF, I mean, he called, he requested that I come to his office and meet with them. And I did. He had a kind of an issue over something I wrote. We hashed it out, and everything was fine since then, and was for a long time. But it was always a working relationship. I always knew that Coach Taggart would tell me things or lead me in the right direction because he wanted it reported on, or there was various reasons why he was doing it. And I assumed it was a business relationship, and it was. And we had a good working relationship. So with that in mind, we all have sources and are all contributing to, once Willie is hired, what the coaching staff is going to look like, but Josh has a unique direct line to Willie Taggart. And that leads to information to Josh being able to put out stories and get an idea of his direction, his vision. What did Willie say to you, Josh? It was something among some lines of split. It feels kind of weird for me too. I feel like I'm interviewing you. Yeah, let me just take it from here. So I kind of had an idea of the way that the staff was going to be built because it took the same shape that it took at Oregon. He was going to bring his boys in, underpay them, and then overpay some bigger names to kind of fill out the staff. And that's where he brought in Levitt and that's where he brought in Mario. And that's where he kind of balanced the staff out with hires like a Dante Pimple Tim in a Raymond Woody. It effaced you, you know, bringing in a telling locket at Alonzo Hampton. The plan was was to balance that out with splash hires. The word that I was always told was splash or big hires or, you know, make a splash. So originally he thought it was going to be Levitt, maybe Mario. And then quickly Mike Loxley, after Mario got the job because that happened very fast. I think he zeroed in on Mike Loxley. And if you remember, there was a two-night kind of three-day period where Mike was in town and he courted him. He was going to be the big hire, you know. He's coming from, in at the time, the Levitt thing had kind of dissipated and he had known that Levitt wasn't going to be the hire. So he had a real quick Josh, the Levitt thing. I think we've talked about before on the podcast. The Levitt thing we were told at the time was very much so Oregon giving Willie the middle finger for leaving the way he did. I mean, I'm talking about the sense. Yeah. It was after you money, essentially. It was still a night money. It was still going at one. Yeah. Exactly. When you have that few money, you can tell people like, that's how that works. Absolutely. So there were some things that didn't go as I think Willie thought they were going to go. Some of the dominoes that we're going to fall afterward didn't really fall the way he thought they were. But at the same time, you know, he couldn't worry about the defensive steps. So he locked it on Michael Oxley. And that thing, if you remember, he came in. I think it was a Thursday or Friday night and left like on a Sunday. It's kind of really strange to see a coach come in town for that long and spend that much time doing his interview only to, you know, get back to Tuscaloosa and take another day to decide. Remember, we were on Michael Oxley watch there for like 72 hours and ultimately turns turns FSC down. Well, rewind that real quick, Josh, part of that process of trying to get Oxley in a sticking point like Willie Taggart initially did not want to hire a quarterback's coach. Correct. That's correct. So when he first got there, the plan was to, the plan I was told was, Willie Taggart was going to coach Cubities, call the plays and be the head coach. He was going to bring in a recruiting staff around him and somebody at the wide receiver, you know, somebody was going to get the passing in coordinator role. I'm not sure. But that was the plan in the beginning. And then Michael Oxley was kind of talked to and brought in and I think Willie Taggart quickly realized that he was going to have to offer him play calling duties. I don't think any coach in America at a high level was going to come in and not call the plays. I mean, Mike was calling the plays at Alabama. So if you're going to court him, you have to offer that. So there was a pivot there where coach Taggart knew that if he's going to bring in a Cubie coach, then he's going to also have to bring in a play collar with him. He's not going to hire a high-end Cubie coach that was a formerly in OC as maybe he thought he was. So at that point, he kind of gave up that bargaining chip and was open to bringing in OC in name only, of course, because he was still going to call the plays. And then I don't know all the chips were in one basket, but it quickly went from Mike Oxley to Walt Bell real quick. And I don't know that was due to a lack of names that he had on his card. I had heard and I had been told that this was kind of, it was brought to him to his attention by Jimmy Sexton. This wasn't a name that was tied to Willie Taggart in any way. It was just kind of brought up to him, suggested to him. Well, I think Willie had had some connection to Maryland's head coach at the time when they were at Stanford. I recollection could be off on that. Yeah, and they also played a Walt Bell team. There's some overlap there, but from what I was told, it was it was pretty much just kind of brought up to him, but buying outside voice. Real quick, this is to me the beginning of signs that I know at the time. Chris, when I get your thoughts on this, we're seeing guys Jim Levitt not work out Mario. Crystal Ball obviously gets a head coaching job. Mike Oxley does not work out. And it was taking a long time. The thing is those three names you just mentioned could all be explained away for sensible reasons. Mario got a head coaching job, Levitt got overpaid. Oxley was, you know, hanging out for something better because he knew something better was coming within the organization. It was part of what the fact that he had a future of being a head coach again. So like those could be explained away, but clearly, there was a jumping off of the cliff point when they went from having names of that quality to where they ended up. And the big leap is where the biggest she became known, but we didn't recognize that in real time. It's time that became clearly evident as the months were on. And well, Josh, do you want to talk about how Harlan Burnett was put on Willie Taggart's radar? We can skip over that. Yeah, let's skip over that. Okay. All right. But regardless, the staff was not options A or B. It seemed like they're very much so C options for Willie Taggart. And that and hindsight is something that we should look at as something that was alarming. Like Chris said, some of the main ones could be explained away. And on paper, like you look at what Walt Bell did at Arkansas State and and Maryland, like there were some impressive things there. You look at what Harlan Burnett did at Michigan State as a code defensive coordinator. We were told that he was the primary TC at Michigan State. Like there were impressive things there. And Brendan, the issues ended up being communication. I'm sure we're going to get into this at different points. But the issues ended up being communication. And I got to fault that to the fact that a lot of these coaches had never worked together. Not a lot of these coaches didn't come from the same even the same coaching tree, you know. Well, and key and key coaches too, man. Like it's not just like your assembly and like a a recruiter, like you're pulling in a temporary stripy position coach. You're a timeout to the guy coordinating your offense day-to-day and the guy coordinating your defense day. Did they ever work with that coach? Right. And if you want a guy to be the OC in name only, it has to be like the way that Jimbo had it. He had a James Cole. Somebody that worked under him, somebody that knew everything that Jimbo was going to think before he thought it. And that's why it worked because Cole was like an extension of him. In this case, it didn't work because Walt Bell was so full and every, you know, hearing behind the scenes, Walt had a different way of using verbiage. It just, everything was just different. Not that it was bad or better or worse. It was just different. And then you throw these two people together and it was going to take more time than what it took for them to become one and work in unison. Yeah. When you're hiring people, you need to hire people that are similar-minded, or you need to be open-minded enough to deal with different opinions. And in this case, that was the way it worked. They hired a defensive coordinator who was bred of four, three defenses for a team that eventually wanted to become a three-four, which I know Chris need foreshadowing and jumping ahead here I go. Oh, so sweet that you're self-aware, though, too. It's okay. There's going to be a lot of foreshadowing. Hey, there's no need to apologize, guys. We got all out of the way up front. We will talk more about that awkward transition as well. One more thing, as we finish up, the coaching staff, and we're talking about in hindsight the negative, but there was a lot of feel-good at the time when they're putting things together, initially, and one of the reasons was, because really, Tiger was really good at playing the public relations game. Deon's handers. Josh, let's talk about that, because that was very early on. I think that was around the same time as the bowl game. Yeah. So, later it was the bowl game. Late December, Chris, when were you in, when were you in beautiful treeport? What, a Florida State Southern Miss game? Yeah. It was right before New Year's. It was December 27th. So, on December 26th, I talked to Coach Taggart and he told, and I was, he would kind of confirm things. Like, if I would throw out names, that I had been here and were involved with jobs. He would at least tell me if they were, if that was true or not. And I was asking him some questions on the DB higher and he brought up the name Dion Sanders. And I was just like, what, like, what? Because I'm thinking like, how am I gonna work this? Like how am I gonna report this? Like, so I wanted to make sure. I'm like, are you telling me that you're interested in Dion or Dion reached out to you? Because like Dion reached out to coach Tagger for a job, you know, that's, and he was just, and he was just like, he didn't really answer and he said he kept, he was kind of telling me that that would be, you know, this would be one of those splash names, wouldn't it? Like this would be, this would be one of those big names. And I'm not sure why he wanted it made public, but he told me that, no, it was serious. The interest was mutual. And I was like, well, you know, I kind of told him I'm gonna report it and he told me to hold on. He was reported, he was reported tomorrow when the game starts. And I was like, all right. And then I see that Dion is gonna be a sideline reporter at the game. So I didn't know what was really happening. And as soon as the game starts, I put it out. The story drops. ESPN quickly picks up on it and interviews Dion in the first or second quarter about it. And everybody, you know, everybody's crappin' on me saying that this is clickbait. This is that, you know, this isn't true. As soon as I put it out. And then there you have, on the field, Dion Sanders confirms my story, says that he's been in contact with Willie Taggart. He's interested in the job. Whether or not I believe any of this was real or not, it was happening in my jobs to report on this coaching search. And I did. Again, I'm not sure why he wanted it public because in the end, I don't think he was ever serious about hiring Dion. I really don't. He never told me whether he was or not, but I don't think he was. And it built hype, but it also built expectations. And ultimately those expectations when it came to the coaching search were never met. Because you don't hire guys like Alonzo Hampton and Telling Lockett and Dante Pimpleton to bring in Walt Bell and Harlan Barnett as your coordinators. Like just financially, just his vision when he got there, that was never kind of the vision of the staff when he arrived. So all of this raised expectations wildly, I think, during the coaching search, right? You guys remember watching, watching all that? Yeah, it was, I mean, the excitement was palpable. I'm part of that's because of the expectation. Oh, damn it, I didn't mean to do it. It's like a million dollar word, you did it. You're checking all the boxes? I'm just gonna say, wait till someone checks the boxes in a little bit. Yeah, it was something that the entire fan base was salivating for information. I had friends texting me like daily, like more, we want more. I'm like, there's nothing to give you right now, but people were just so hungry for information. And Willie Taggart did a phenomenal job at playing into what was it a ravenous fan base that was starving for positive, for feel good. After the end of the jumbo fissure error, after things got so stale, this was new and fresh and fun. And that transitioned us into the spring game. I mean, the recruiting weekend for the spring game was a big deal. The actual spring game itself, Chris, do you remember how many people were in attendance for that? Like that was a surreal event. That was one of the cooler events I've covered at Florida State, just the energy at Doke Campbell State in that afternoon. - Yeah, I don't know what day announced for the actual attendance, but it felt like much more than half the stadium, which was kind of mind-blowing. I remember standing up in the press box and looking down and seeing that side underneath us was completely filled. The ends were solidly filled and the other side had a good amount filled despite being, you know, some dressed. So yeah, it kind of played to the whole, this is new, this feels great and it's good. Oh, yeah, the hires took a while, but whatever we'll see how they are in the fall, I think it'll be better. He's got a lot of talent, word outies. It was weird. It was like, I don't, it's easy to look back and say, oh, I should have seen that and that was it. I don't know the first time thinking before to be tech game of, oh man, like, this might not be good. And I wonder if there were signs in real time. I noticed and I just kind of whipped on or glanced over because I heard everything. I just would super-seed it. I don't know what it was, but the spring game is another instance of an injection of good feelings. - I mean, the on-field product itself maybe should have been a warning for us in hindsight. But again, they could all be explained away. Like, the offense aligned, they didn't have anyone who could snap the ball, like physically snap the football. They had injuries at center. Remember, didn't Brady Scott and Cory Martinez go one, two in the draft, when they did the team draft because they didn't have it? - Cory definitely went top. I can't remember if the other ones were, but they were both a lot of it. But Cory was definitely either the first or the second picked. And so, like, the on-field product wasn't great, but it was explained away because there were injuries at key positions and they're learning how to do tempo. And, you know, I mean, like, the practice, the practices weren't super buttoned up, but they weren't supposed to be. Like, they were supposed to be energetic. And that was Willie Taggart's whole, like, mantra was, we're just gonna be, like, loose and free and have fun. And that works to an extent if you get the athletes to go ahead and do that. And now it's, I think, the other part of this that we were optimistic about, Josh was the recruiting. Florida State's coaching staff was brought in to recruit Florida. They said, if we recruit Florida, we win. And initially, early on, we can see that. - No, the mantra, no, it's not, no. - They're not doing it right? - The mantra was, if we win Florida, we win. - Wow. - They meant, if you can win Florida, and I believe in this, I mean, there's nothing wrong with what they were saying. If they said, if we win Florida, we win. So their point was, if we can out-recruit the other in-state schools and get the best players in the state, we will win. And their focus was on the top 25 players in the state. They felt that out of the top 25, they should be landing 50% of those. - Yeah, so Josh, the recruiting aspect is something that made sense, too. They assembled a step that is meant to recruit the state of Florida. Like everyone had a certain territory in Florida. There was something that Willie Tiger wanted to emphasize. It's something that he specialized in from his time at USF. He brought in guys who had experienced recruiting the state of Florida. And we saw early returns on that in the spring game. And then Josh, and Chris, if you wanna take us into Saturday Night Live, that was another event that showed just how dynamic this staff could be with something to sell when it came to recruiting. - Yeah, it felt like an old star event. He had some of the best players in the country. And I know Josh is gonna dive in on some of the names. But you look down, you know, like men, they are assembling town. They are getting top-care town. They're getting the kind of players they need to help improve this football team. I don't think we were quite using the phrase turn things around, but we definitely were using the phrases of needing help, meaning players at certain spots that were gonna light up the scoreboard or prevent the other team from doing so. And you saw some of those types of guys at the event. - Yeah, a lot. And the funny thing was when Mike Norvell was hired and there was a couple visit weekends that were impressive. And people said, "Oh, it's great to get recruits "back on campus again." And they acted like it had been a really long time since they had recruits on campus. And I think a lot of people misremember, just at the level, Willie Taggart was, I don't want to say recruiting up, but the level he was able to get guys on campus, at least early on in his tenure, was unbelievable. Here's some names, Chris, that were at Saturday Night Live on the field in Doke, and really interested in Florida State at the time. Cave on Tivado, number one defensive end in the country. Number one linebacker in the country, Nikovi Dean, five star offensive guard, Cardel Thomas, five star linebacker, Sevelle Smalls, four star wide receiver, George Pickens, four star defensive tackle, Tyler Davis, higher elum, Derek Hall, Aryan Smith, DeMarcus Bowman, Sam Howell, Charles Cross, Lloyd Sumberall, Charles Turner, Harrison Bailey, the list goes on, but that was a talented event. - Dude, you know what hurts about that here in those names? - Is people in hindsight like to crap on the Willie Taggered staff and act like they couldn't do anything right? Not only did they get those guys on campus, but I mean, that staff could evaluate too. Like they, like they chose Sam Howell as their quarterback and we'll get into his recruitment later, but like they had options. And Sam Howell was really great this year as a freshman, not perfect, but great. Tyler Davis, I think was the ACC defensive rookie of the year. They were able to identify guys who couldn't compete in health and propped it a lot. - George Pickens is going to be a beast. Like, that just to me, Kavon Tibido is going to be special. Like, and they left that event, Josh. Remember, there was a conversation with Willie after the event, he was confident. They were number one. They were in the driver's seat for Tibido. Like if he had to commit that day, he felt good about it. 'Cause that was the second trip to Florida State, I recall. - Yeah, there was a lot of confidence around him. There was a lot of confidence that Cardell Thomas was eventually going to come around. Remember at that point, everybody thought this might be Coach O's last season at LSU and FSU might be turning the corner. Well, it went in opposite directions, obviously, and it didn't work out that way. But George Picken is in his mother came back for another visit. Tyra Davis, I put in a crystal ball after this. I got a good word from somebody that we all know that's very close to Tyra Davis and he told me to put that pick in for FSU. Tyra was going to probably decide sometime in August and he ended up pushing it back in the rest of his history. But the list goes on. I mean, there's almost, you could say with all these guys, they were very, very interested in Florida State at the time of their visit. And I skipped over even just in terms of buzz and excitement. We talked about the spring game, like the spring, like the booster tour, which is going to happen this year with Mike Norvelks, the coronavirus. That was a huge opportunity for Willie Tagger that he crushed as well. He got people excited. I remember being at the Jacksonville one, there was, it was the biggest event they've ever had. I was at the Man of T one, they had to have people spilling, they had to be have people, I don't know if it was like that because that was a little bit later on in the tour FU Josh. The Jacksonville ones, the first one, they had a spillover room. The room was so full, they had a room of other people, like just to go to the side and watch it on a TV because they just didn't have room for it. It was crazy. Yeah, it was definitely some rock star vibes to it. Like when he was getting people in line to get their picture taken with Coach Tagger. Right. See how long it was. And, you know, granted it was his hometown and it was an exciting time. But I just, I don't think Mike Norvel is going to have the same pop on these, on these visits. Well, yeah. He's not going to, he's not possible, but yeah, I think that's what it would be. It wouldn't be the same turnouts for Mike Norvel. Well, I think the fan base, I know I certainly fallen this, fool me once, you know, Sham on me, fool me twice, yeah, that's not saying Norvel is going to be willy by any stretch of imagination. I just think people are taking a very cautious approach. Yeah. I think most people also understand teams not a good spot. And part of this too, and that's what hurts about it is people wanted, like we all wanted to do well. I think most of the fans really wanted willy to thrive. All the fans wanted him to thrive. Like so when, when things started going poorly and we're pointing them out, it's just that's our job is to point, to point them out. And with the spring tour, that's going to get us to now the, the preseason in the start of the, the 2018 campaign. One misstep that Willie Tagger made is crystal clear and hindsight and it came back to the bottom pretty quickly on when the season started and the results weren't great. He hyped up the team. He had chances to kind of say, let's hit the brakes. He did qualify it sometime saying, oh, I know everyone's excited right now. We haven't played a game yet, but he, he said he thought the offensive line was, was going to be fine. He, he said this wasn't a team that had locker room cancers. They weren't quote unquote turds. I forgot when he said that, but he, he didn't do a whole lot to temper expectations. Even back to that opening press conference that Chris talked about earlier, Willie really hyped things up at Florida State for year one. Then as we get closer to the season starting, I remember I had a conversation with, with one coach who asked me, it's subrending like how, how did FSU's offensive line get this bad? And I just missed it at the time. I was like, I, you know, like I took it as like they have issues and they know they have issues and warts up front, but that leads us into the 2018 season. I don't think any of us expected that Virginia tech game. Let's start off with that as we get into the, now the season aspect, no one, none of us expected it. I think more so Willie Taggart didn't expect it. Chris, can you paint a picture of that day that the season opener for Florida State was Labor Day was evening kickoff? What was that like? Five hours before kick parking lots were more failed than they'd been in years. People were drinking, people were enjoying themselves, people were jovial, stadium was packed, we were riding that wave of excitement, kickoff happening, they got their ass kicked by a half time. It was like, oh my God, what the hell is happening here by the end of the game, people were just hoping it was a one off, but there was a whole lot of panic button feeling going on of ready to touch it, but not going to quite touch it because it's just one game. I mean, it sucked every bit of air out of blue and they never ever recovered from that moment. Even before the game didn't Nick Cross commit right before then? You know, I can't actually remember when he popped. I think he did, I think it was timed on purpose, if I'm not mistaken, and if so, that's another tip of the cap to like the PR game, the staff play, they're really good at it. They had a good amount of accuracy, sideline was packed, I believe K-Von was actually back for that game correct, yeah, it was an event. It was going to be the beginning of something special to believe that this program's going to be good this year, the future is brighter, we're going to get the ball rolling downhill. This is where it starts, and boom, Cannonball, everything comes crashing down, they look non-competitive, disorganized, penalty riddled, pretty crappy in general from a playing standpoint. And it just, it was like a halt of all momentum and they never ever, ever recovered. Even in like the preseason, I remember the IMG Academy trip Chris, like how, like the good vibes and the dancing line on the field, dap and dice up. Right, but players were buying into it, that's my point, is like people would like to crap on the dancing and Willie's approach now, but there were guys like who were legitimately buying in him, and what he was selling at that time, right? Yeah, but that is only buying in as long as you're winning, once the winning goes away, they look for something to blame and why it didn't work, and that happened very quickly around these parts. They bought into the process, Brendan, but then once they saw the results, there's a quick buy out. It showed how fragile that really, that style was, I think, especially for a group of guys who'd been burned by their coach and they committed to leaving them for a program that's not, frankly, as good as Florida State, it was a vulnerable group, and when they bought into Willie Taggart, you're right, Josh, they bought out quickly. Have everything Willie did and does is momentum-based. And so when good things are happening, that's great, right? But when not, that's what we start to see here, so that Virginia Tech game happens, and then it becomes a snowball where the momentum is going in the wrong direction. You have this Samford game where FSU is going like literally, and it's in a dog fight with an FCS team. Yeah, the Volvante-Caylor's pick is what saved their asses. Remember, Volvante didn't have a great game either, like he walked off the field to straw and upset. Willie kind of puts his arm around him, tells him to keep his head up, and then if I'm not mistaken, the next game is Syracuse, and then that's a debacle, too. Guys, remember, DeAngry Francois gets sacked, and I mean, he got sacked a bunch of times that game, but the play where Abdulbello, a lot of guy go by him, and DeAngry Francois gets sacked, and Abdulbello goes to help him up, and DeAngry just kind of houts and blubs around. That's when we start seeing the warning signs, right? And I remember asking Willie Taggart after the game, if he's thinking about switching the quarterback position to James Blackman, because we were told in camp that Jameson had a great camp, but obviously it wasn't working with DeAngry Francois, and there were some chemistry issues there, and they had worked really hard to get DeAngry kind of on the two buy-in, to get on the right path, and it clearly was not working when things started to spiral. Willie was not happy with the answer, he was kind of indignant about it, actually, that I would ask that question, but it was something our message board was begging for at the time for that to be asked. But the judgment of a man to believe you can be built around DeAngry Francois questions their judgment. And that's on that. We jumped on that bandwagon fast as hell, and by the Notre Dame game, when that rolled around that season, I think all of us were abundantly clear where we stood on that. But the fact that three games into that year, after 30 to seven ass kicking in the carrier dome, a place named after ear-conditioning that has no ear-conditioning, you would think that you would realize, man, we've gotten our box-eye beat to be out of three games, like everything's up for grabs. Like, why are you so strongly in the corner of a guy who isn't in your corner in a Francois? And that was one of the very first things I do remember about that season, beyond the V-Tech and the results of those early games, was that he believed Francois was some figure to build around of program, and he's not. He never was, and I don't know how you can spend time with him and think he was. In a practice, in person, in an interview setting, any setting with that young man, it was abundantly clear where he is not what a program can be built around. You can use him, you can play him, but he isn't that guy. You don't act like he's the guy that the other guy is a gravitate to. Josh, you're shaking your head, like preach, Chris, preach, you have anything to add on that? No, I just, no, I agree with what Chris was saying. Okay. You were adamantly shaking your head. It was enthusiastic. He was making good points. His energy was palpable at the time. The one thing I will say with Deodre Francois, I didn't mind him trying on Deodre. I thought that was a reclamation project based on his pure talent, certainly worthy of taking a chance on. The issue, as Chris said, and this is something I had talked about with someone on staff like after the season, was when things went wrong, when Deodre, the bad side of him the side that made him kind of volatile and led to people taking sides within the locker. I'm like, when that starts emerging, and I don't know exactly when it happened. I know when Chris reference is a Notre Dame game, we'll get to that in a minute or two, because that was a clarifying moment for me personally and covering the team. But when Deandre starts, when the team starts spiraling with Deandre at the helm, you have to know as a coach, you have to have an idea of your personalities and who you can trust, who you can't trust with a certain amount of leadership. And Deandre, by all accounts, just wasn't, wasn't that guy as tough as he was, as good as some of his physical tools, like his arm talent were. He just, he wasn't running things smoothly, and the offense was sputtering under him. And more importantly, that the program was sputtering under his guidance. And someone had explained it to me as, well, Willie Taggart's got almost his Bobby Bowden-esque survival or savior complex, excuse me, savior complex. And because that was always Bobby's thing, right, was like, I'd rather take a chance on a kid and be under, you know, my wing, then him go out somewhere else and fail. But my point to, to that staffer at the time was, I understand taking a risk on your guy, some of that you bought into, some of that you brought into your program, but why, why someone that you inherited, would you put that much equity into? And they didn't have an answer, a good answer for, they didn't actually have an answer at all, they said, you may be right. And to me, that's when we start looking at the missteps of Willie Taggart, especially in that first season, that is a clear cut one. Going down the line here with some other games, we have the Syracuse one. Remember, NIU was a dogfight as well for most of that game. They go up to Louisville and Bobby Petrino basically gives them that game. Then the Miami game too, was to me another moment. Chris, if you want to talk about the Miami game, if you recall that one, even going in today. That's a 2827 DJ Matthews play will always be to play. I think people will think back to from an FSU perspective in that game. You know, FSU lead, they outplayed them for a first half and then it all fell apart, fell apart very quickly in the third quarter. Protection went to hell, protecting the ball went to hell. They just, you know, red zone defense wasn't there from defense perspective. They swandered a great opportunity for a win that would have gave them three in a row with the potential of at least acting one more on what wake farce of following week after a by week. Yeah, going into the by week. They were in a position to establish some positive momentum as a program and start showing signs and it kind of, for lack of a better term, ran down their way against their in state rival and that team after that game, talking to them, was not only devastated, but felt broken. And that was a bigger issue is that you're you're essentially at that point, you're what six games into a season? Yeah, six games into a season. And it feels like you're done and you still have Clemson coming up, NC State coming up, Trip to Notre Dame coming up, BC in the cold coming up, you know, or I'm sorry, BC was at a hand coming up and that game was played in the rain and then of course you have in state Florida to wrap it up. So you're halfway through and you're leaving callgables and you don't feel good about yourself at all. You're in a rough rough place and they felt like they were directionless like they didn't know who and what they were definitely trying to be what they could accomplish. And it felt like they put so much into that Miami game that when it was squandered and faltered and it didn't get it in the end, that they were left without answers. And I don't, again, another instance of it didn't feel like they ever were able to recover. It's like every time they got knocked down, they didn't know how to get up. And that was the issue with that program under Willie Taylor was they'd never had a long-term plan. Everything was done in a short-term view by them and nothing was about establishing what we're going to be long-term, making the right choices of who we're building around, making the right choices of how are we going to do this, making the right choices of yeah, we're going to lose some but we're playing for something bigger. They lost Miami, it felt like they lost everything. It wasn't about, you know, circle away against take the pie we come out and play with momentum down the stretch on the air. Nobody was talking that way after that game. They were all broken in this straw. And that will be, you mentioned a couple recurring themes here, Chris, one, the inability to get back up sometimes, but then two, the putting all the eggs into one basket approach for a game emotionally is something that carries over in 2019 as well for a little foreshadow when we do our next episode. But looking at, they do bounce back after the bioweak to beat Wake Forest, Wake Forest isn't necessarily sure when, by any means, you should beat Wake Forest at home if you're Florida State, then they have Clemson coming to doke. Josh, do you remember the kind of the vibe around that that game coming up that Trevor Lawrence is a freshman, true freshmen starting to get things going? I forget what Clemson's ranked at the time, but do you recall Josh like what the internal vibe was? They were ranked number two. Two, thank you Chris. Yeah, there was a, despite everything we'd seen on the field prior to this, there was a weird air of confidence, not only amongst the staff, but amongst the players as well. They really thought they were going to win that game, and they thought that they had a game plan that was going to win that game. And I'm not sure what they saw from themselves that made them believe or what they saw from Clemson tape that made them believe that they were going to win that game, but they really thought they were going to win that game. And I think there was a, there was a, there was probably more disappointment than most know after they lost in the play. The players, so that was one of the times I think that that the kind of glue started coming on done. Wouldn't you say where the players started really pointing the fingers at the coaches? We're getting that. We're, it's tough to pinpoint when I know when the moment was for me, but yeah, we're getting into that. That game included punches being thrown, players quitting on plays, loafing, sideline demeanor that was just completely of a defeated nature. So yeah, yes. And they really thought they were going to win that game. Chris, do you remember the week leading up to it? We won't mention names. We had people like on the beat we were arguing with that were, and this was a Willie Taggart driven narrative that FSU's defense align was as good as Clemson's defense align at that time. And and will is like, well, we go up against our defense align and practice every day. Like it won't be, it won't be an issue. Yeah. And I remember that. I remember that. And I remember laughing at it and poking fun at it constantly. And we still do sometimes. But like that, I think, but that again, that wasn't just reporters riding that like they wrote it because Willie Taggart gave them those quotes. He believed it. That was the message that we're spending internally. Was that Brian Burns in a sophomore, Marvin Wilson, whereas good as that Clemson defensive line that included Clemson Pharaohs, a third, a third overall pick that your straf Christian Wilkins was a top 15 pick. Dexter Lawrence is Emerge is one of the better defensive tackles in the NFL. Who's the other defensive end that I miss? I mean, it's not the, it was not the same thing. And therein lies to me, kind of the microcosm of not having good self-awareness internally and being able to self-evaluate. So that Clemson game happens like Chris says, it's, it's a cluster. You know what during the game. What was it? It wasn't at seven, nothing or zero, zero at the end of the first quarter, but it spirals. Guys are throwing punches. Two guys are ejected. It's the quandary white and Nikon Murray. And then what they were both suspended, Chris, correcting from wrong for the next hat for the first half of the next game against NC State. I believe so. It's something like that. And that was something that I know a lot of people were kind of questioning at the time like it was there. That was a sufficient punishment for again, a team that seemed like it was unraveling a little bit. Also for the NC State game and FSU loses 47 to 28. That's one of the defense, which was, they felt they were so limited at linebacker. They were always selling out against their own Clemson and NC State between that time. A team started to expose them a little bit and found soft spots in the middle of the field. FSU just could not stop NC State's offense. But Deandre Francois did not play because he had an injury. I forgot if it was a concussion or ribs. Willie wasn't ever clear on that. But James Blackman comes in and they put up one of the better offensive performances of the season under James. And the team honestly seems to reinvigorated a little bit, at least on the offensive side of the ball, which was awful to that point. So that takes us to the Notre Dame game. That to me is when I checked out or when I said, oh, there's two instances. One will talk about in the next episode. But this was the first one. I know Chris tried to identify it earlier. This for me was the first moment where I said, I don't believe Willie Taggart can fix this thing because he seemed so clueless to what his team needed at that point. And to me, that was he went that entire week of practice without naming a starting quarterback. James has a really good game, but Deandre is the guy he stuck with the entire season. So they go through this practice with neither quarterback, having a, the team in general, not knowing who the starting quarterback is going to be. I think they thought it was going to be Deandre, but they weren't sure. And Chris, remember we got, I got the text that of course were always, I was getting a quarterback text on a Friday night. We were at a bar right outside of Wrigley when I was told that we were, that Deandre was going to be the starter. Now that point is like, okay, they're done. Do you remember what you felt in that moment when we knew that Deandre was going to be the starter for that game? I wondered why it took till then. Like I don't, I never understood the suspense that was built up for that internally, not externally, internally. To this day, I'd never had a good explanation on it. Players were confused in the sense of not knowing exactly who was starting what the exact game plan would be depend, depend upon the starter. And it was like this kept secret that I don't know why it was kept secret. Maybe DeAndre wasn't meant to. cleared to Thursday. I've never been told that. Maybe they truly want to be an open competition to Friday. I'm just saying there was never clarity provided. And this is from talking to people associated with team coaches, players, people that know the intricacies of the program. Nobody has a good answer for that. So they roll out there. They hit the field. It's a worse pregame warm-up I've ever seen in my life for any team ever. People or other people covering the team are saying how loose they look and you and I are just kind of rolling our eyes because I think we knew what was coming at that point. They looked unorganized, not focused, and they're in a place that's not super easy to play against a team that was pretty damn good in that year. And they got raised exactly how it looked like they would in pregame. 42 to 13 was the final of that one. That game was basically over after about three plays. I mean, it was awful. It was horrible. First play of the game is an interception, right? It was a second. I believe it was a second play of the game. Wasn't the first play when they missed a read where they could have handed off and run straight up the gut. I can't. It was a fired pass into Trey McKity. McKity could have caught it, but it was a little bit behind them and it was thrown with way too much zip and it gets off McKity's hands and it's intercepted and that's all she wrote. Notre Dame basically ran from South Bend to Indianapolis without the defense trying to stop him. I mean, it was just an ass kicking. It was brutal after that game. Somebody who had very good friends with them for a really long time spoke to what Walt Bell and Walt was just beside himself. He was so frustrated, so fed up. It was clearly a disaster and the program was not in a deep place. And I wrote after that game that they were a rattleship. And to this day, it's probably the best thing I've ever said having some foresight on what might happen because they had no direction. They had no clue who they were trying to be. They had no clue how they were going to get there. They had no clue how they were going to be better tomorrow than they were today. And it was clear as day leaving South Bend Indiana that it was a complete mess and that they were playing to the end of the season that they were going to be lucky to win the next week which I did. It's BC at home crappy game 2221. That was a game where two teams tried to beat themselves a lot. And then of course they got their ass kicked by Florida following week. Let's tell you on the real quick Chris was right after that. But real quick because as we're going chronologically through here, for me, that Notre Dame game was going into it, the week leading into it, the uncertainty, the the confusion that people internally had about the program of not knowing who the quarterback is going to be in what direction we're going in. That's when I started kind of sell my buyout, basically, as Josh said earlier. Do you remember when your moment was Chris when you was at Virginia Tech as early as that where you started? I think you were a little bit early. So if I if I'm being a transparent. I think Chris kind of first was the first one to be like, as isn't right. And then myself and Josh because he's not there every day. And I think we're going to get to where he started kind of seeing the warts and organization with the program kind of coming to head like a week after I did. But Chris, do you remember when when you did early in the year beat tech, for example, even Miami, I thought they're not very good, but you can kind of fake it till you make it and get a couple of years out of it before you lose your job. After another day, I was wholeheartedly convinced that it was just there was a complete freaking mess that it was not going to get better that the current status quo of what they were trying to do, how they were trying to operate the players that were running out there the way they were trying to coach as a staff that these things weren't going to work and they weren't going to win enough to get what they needed to improve. It's a two lane road and you need to win enough to get guys into the program when you're bad so you don't lose more. They were going to just keep losing more because they weren't going to get better players in the program. And another day for me was kind of the tipping point where I just, I remember telling friends and family, FSU people that I've grown up when known forever that I just didn't think it was going to work. Like, yeah, it's not personal. I just thought it was going to be bad and I didn't think it was going to get better and that man, all those good feelings we had for those six, seven months before they picked off, they're gone. They're evaporated. There's no good will left in the bank for me to think that the things is going to turn around and be better all of a sudden. So as they kind of get in, they circle the wagons and have that sloppy win against Boston College, Adazio kind of gives that one to the Florida State with his game management. That becomes a a common theme over the last two years. Two days later, Josh writes an article. I think that's going into a Monday morning. I remember because I had to cover the Jadon Hazelwood official visit. Is that a Jadon Hazelwood? I had to cover his official visit that day. And awkwardly, this article gets released. Thanks for this, Josh. Like maybe 10 minutes before his official visit is up, but you had some juice, you had some information. Why do you think in me? What happened? It was just awkward. I was standing out there and it was awkward. I wrote a story called FSU Coaching Insider. Change is expected after 2018 season. And this was like you said, the week of the UF game, I believe, right? And I said that there's a couple key points. And I said that I'm told Willie Taggart Plains to sit down with each coach for an in-depth discussion on the season. They're coaching performance and the future of what's to come for each coach. Based on what I'm hearing, his upcoming discussion with defensive coordinator, Harlan Arnnell. Oh wait, Josh, before you explain everything that you reported on this, let's do it Quentin Tarantino style. What was the reaction to this story that's written? And then go back and explain to us everything that is reported. How about that? I was told that everything that I wrote was wrong. I got a phone call. And I was pretty much, it was, it was a hostile phone call. I was told that everything that I wrote was wrong, that all my sources must hate me. I was like, what do you mean my source? Because they all lied to you. And I was like, I was just not one source. I was pretty good about what I wrote. But I was told that, you know, why not make a call to the head man and verify everything because it's just none of this is right. And I couldn't be further from the truth. And just everything was wrong. So I didn't feel that same way. I stuck with the story. I didn't edit it at all. I didn't leave it out. You know, I didn't I didn't think to take it down. But what I, you know, the first point that I made in the story was I'm hearing that his upcoming discussion with defensive coordinator Harlan Barnett is one to keep an eye on. There's some reason to believe that Barnett's scheme and philosophy don't match with what Taggart wants to do. Although recently Barnett has shown the ability to depth and change. He moved from the side on blah, blah, blah. I'm foreshadowing the switch of defense. It happened. And that's exactly what I wrote about. Then I said I spoke with several sources within the FSU program and throughout coaching circles that believe FSU will go in another direction at special teams. Alonzo Hampton's unit has underperformed all season. And he's like the most likely to go if and when changes are made on January 2nd. Alonzo Hampton was fine. He was the first coach that left the possibility. Here's the next, the next one. The possibility of a coach or two being reassigned to an off-field job is also something I'm hearing. Wide receiver coach David Kelly has been Taggart's off-field recruiting coordinator for the past three years. blah, blah, blah. David Kelly was moved. Well, he was tried to be reassigned. He wasn't successfully reassigned. But as you can see, everything that I wrote in here kind of played out exactly how I said. And it was the beginning of a weird time for me and the coaching staff and just covering his program in general. And that that's a more than delve into on the the upcoming episode, the part two of this, which is that all that kind of sets a weird tone for the the upcoming off-season. There's a lot of change that happens. A lot of rumors. It just it it becomes a really weird revolving door of pieces and Josh's dynamic. I think it's really interesting with with Willie Taggart, if I'm being transparent, like it gets weird. I went through the worst period of my career, for sure. And it's been a very good, you know, I've had a fun ride, but there's just it was a bad time. It was and what I learned during well, let's save that one for for the next one because I think that's going to be the meat and potatoes. Let's wrap up the the 2018 season that'll carry simply off season when we start the next podcast. FSU goes, well, host Florida at that point, that's to get bull eligible for the street to remain intact. That obviously doesn't happen. FSU loses 41 to 14 afterwards. Chris correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm saying anything that that you heard differently, I heard the locker room was despondent. Like the guys and it were fighting not physically, but like yelling at each other, yelling at coaches. There was no control. There was no leadership. It was just a group of players that had more or less checked out and it becomes so frustration frustrated. It just it boiled over from guys pouting on the field afterwards to it being finger pointing the lower in the locker room. It was rife with dysfunction is what I remember being told. Rife with dysfunction. I think that's a good way to end this episode of the podcast and we'll resume the next one. I want to say what day, but I think later this week is the plan tomorrow. And don't say that. Don't say that. I love Josh putting I needed pressure on. Yeah, like I'm not recording another podcast for something else. I can 10 minutes from now. Yeah, whatever, whatever. And all those Corona fears that you got going. And I'm pretty sure I have the Corona. I'm still fairly confident. It's self-quarantine. Yeah, I think this hopefully paints a picture of of some of the moving parts that are going on throughout the season of why we're showing skepticism in the way we cover this team. Like as much as we want to be objective and we have to be be objective and on bias and what we write and say, we also need to tell you guys what we're seeing and without breaking sources, they're going into too many details. And it's a weird balancing act that we have. And even on the message board like recently, some people saying, I wish you were more upfront about what was happening in the Willie Taggart era. And then on Twitter, I'm having people yell at me saying I'm negative about the coverage of Willie Taggart. And I think it's just an interesting dynamic to see how people are viewing it. In part of us, we just can't tell you everything that we're seeing at the time, but we had concerns going into the 2019 off season, but I get really weird once we get into that off season. So I will leave you guys with that thought. Hopefully you found this informative podcast. I promise you the next one. I think it's going to be even more telling and more interesting than this one. So for Josh Newberg, for Christy, I'm Brendan Sonoma. This is on the bench with the first part of our What Run with Willie series. Sick with us, maybe tomorrow. We'll see you guys tomorrow. [Music]