What we learn about Jay-Z in a new docuseries, and the Black Zombie doc

I'm Adrian Arsono, CBC News' Chief Correspondent and your host for When It All Went Wrong. It's an investigative podcast about the people who get hurt when the systems meant to protect us fail. It features original reporting from some of Canada's best journalists. Each series unravels the moment it all went wrong, not by accident, not from poor planning, but because someone chose to do wrong and others chose to do nothing. And then follow When It All Went Wrong, wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. I'm El Amine Abdul-Mahmoud and this is commotion, look there's a brand new docu-series on HBO, it's called Jay-Z and 8. And part of the appeal is you get to it in this Jay-Z, do a deep dive into some of his most beloved songs, songs like this one. Come on, that's an all-tiver, that is public service announcement, it's one of many songs that Jay-Z unpacked with producer Rick Rubin. Jay smoothes here, Shamir Abraham is here, hello to both of you. Hello, hello. I'm El Amine, happy to be here. Listen, I saw you guys just kind of like vibing out at the minute of the public service announcement. I was like, I don't have the nerves or the heart to interrupt this, but I do, we gotta have the conversation. Jay, I'll start with you, you watched the whole series, overall, how you feel about Jay-Z and 8? Yeah, so this is billed as a documentary series and it does come with very fancy sort of cinematic production values, but it's basically a podcast where Jay-Z is sitting down with Rick Rubin and Rick and Jay, listen to different Jay-Z songs together and then have a conversation about each track. And I think there are points in the flow of the conversation that are really interesting. When Rick gets Jay to speak on specific life experiences that inform the tracks beyond the usual, I used to be a hustler that we get from him, and when Jay sort of analyzes the craft and the creative process, not just for himself, but sometimes he'll step back and talk about other MCs that influence his work, like when he speaks on the power of two prox simplicity with his writing, stuff like that, I find really interesting, or how his creative process mixed with biggies when they were collaborating. So I think like most podcasts, it's kind of a meander in conversation that could have been cut down a bit, to be honest, but I do think there are some gems in there. Jay, so he was like, could have been Jay-Z in four, just saying we could have had a few turns to this conversation. I agree with you. I think it's basically, not only is it basically a podcast, it's also basically the podcast that Rick Rubin hosts otherwise. He's got a podcast called On the Record, and he just interviews people about a specific song, and then they get into the song craft of that. And so when I started sitting down for this, I was like, I think I'm just watching an extended on the record, but with Jay-Z, and Jay-Z said, "We'll do it, but for HBO." Shamira, I'm going to ask you to get into this a little bit, because the series sort of dives into some of the lyrics of some of Jay's most acclaimed songs, most celebrated songs. At a certain point, you actually can hear the entire verse. You hear the entire verse of the song play, before you even hear Jay-Z talk about the lyrics. We don't normally see that approach in these content music talks, did that approach work for you? I mean, as someone who's been to a fair amount of label release parties, I'm very used to the idea of men just standing around looking at sound systems, but beyond it being a great ad for the speakers that they had, I really do feel like they could have truncated those pieces. I think about what the purpose of a music doc is, and it's really supposed to give you like novel insight to a person, and the music device could have worked if they actually used that as an entry point, because Jay-Z's whole thing is that his verses are biographical. But unfortunately, we just didn't actually get the depth that we needed to get something truly insightful, and that's not unfortunately a shame. But I'll always be excited here, Jay-Z, talk about the mechanics of making music. Yeah. I want to talk about some of those key moments in a moment, also, I just love watching Jay-Smuth try to get his cat off his desk as he's trying to have this conversation, which is, "Your cat has something to say." Okay? Let's hear what your cat has to say. Allow the cats to reintroduce themselves, you know? It's true. Exactly right. I do want to play you guys a fascinating moment. This is the moment where Jay's explaining to a crewman while rapping as a form of employment was kind of looked down by the generation of hustlers that Jay-Z came out with. Hustlers was making so much money that rappers was calling. So I almost had to hide the fact that I wanted to be a rapper. I'm like, "You want to do that? We already doing this." Like, that's, that seems like a step back with, and in fact, my first record can't knock the hustle, I really was talking to the hustlers who do you think, "Ah, maybe one day you'll be a star." That was the feeling of I wanted to be a rapper, and the hustlers, the down upon being a rapper at that time. Jay-Z was like, "I can't get enough of that." The idea that Jay sort of had to like feel like he has to kind of apologize. I was like, "Sorry for trying to do my art. I understand that hustling is actually a much better sort of business proposition here." What'd you make of that moment? Yeah, that's so interesting, because I think Jay's just a few years older than me. So he was front and center for this shift hip hop, went through where in the 80s, no rapper was really getting rich, rich. So the hustlers on the block were still sort of the benchmark of opulence and material success. But by the mid-90s, when Jay is coming to the fore, that's right when hip hop has become mainstream enough that rappers are starting to get rich, rich, and rapping is becoming a pathway towards being a mogul. So Jay is really at the forefront of figuring out how you inhabit that as an artist. So it's interesting to hear him speak on that. It also makes me think about how he often sort of dealt with that by drawing parallels and metaphors between being a businessman and being a hustler. But it's pretty rare that he acknowledges being a mogul or a businessman, also has its own cloudy, murky morality the same way it being a hustler does. So it made me think about his place in that history, and also the places he's not as willing to go when he thinks about it. Okay, speaking of the places that he's not willing to go, and there's a whole bunch of those in this documentary, a moment that's stuck up for me is that like one of the songs that they choose for Jay-Z and eight in this documentary series is that he talks about the song Kill Jay-Z off his 444 album. And in that song, Jay-Z references his now pretty famous, or I should say infamous, altercation in the elevator with Salon, who's a Beyonce sister, Beyonce's just sort of like watching as her husband and her sister have like a physical altercation. Here is just a little bit of that song. Shamira, that's a little bit of Kill Jay-Z there. It's interesting that the series chose to play that particular song and that verse in this new documentary series in Jay-Z and eight. It's more interesting that Jay-Z did not directly address that line at all, even after they played it in the doc. That felt like a very intentional decision to me. What did you make in that moment? Yeah, I feel like we have a few moments like that where it's approaching something interesting and then we just get to the precipice and pull back, right? So with this one, obviously, like people are eager to hear what Jay has to feel about his last most introspective album, 444, and we kind of get that he wants to therapy a lot, right? I mean, great, happy that his marriage is rebounding all of the things, but that's not really what's compelling to me about the process of actually being so raw so publicly, right? And we find these like kind of weird moments multiple times in the documentary, like they have a conversation about his last collab with Yeh on Donda and it's like you're speaking to Rick Rubin a long time Kanye West collaborator about his last collaboration. Your relationship is like notably fraught and we're not even talking about that either. It's interesting where they chose to acknowledge things but still skip around it. Yeah, it should be here. That's exactly how I feel. If you're going to go to the red table, go to the red table. If you're not going to go to the red table, then don't just stay in your house like what are we doing here? We are talking about we know the story. You know the story, and also the part of the song that you just played, nods to the fact that we all know the story and then yet after all that, there's sort of an unwillingness to go there. Have you said that like there are a few sort of enriching moments to me. There's a enriching moment where we talk about that song that we played earlier, Public Service Announcement, right? And there's The Line. I'm Jay Guevara with Bling on, I'm Complex. There's an interesting backstory to that line. Jay, do you want to tell that? What happened there? How did we get that line? Yeah, so that line was inspired by a journalist, Elizabeth Mendez-Berry, who's a good friend of mine. And she was at a listening session where Jay-Z was there and I think she was working on a profile of Jay and she talked about how in the piece she wrote about how Jay-Z came in the room with a Che Guevara t-shirt and this blinged out medallion that's bouncing off of Che Guevara's face as he walks around and talked about how that's some pretty powerful symbolism regarding how revolutionary politics get commodified in show business and in hip-hop. So Jay-Z took note of that part of the piece and responded with this line. I'm Jay Guevara Bling on, I'm Complex. So seeing him address this here was cool but also frustrating. Because he's I feel like he's kind of dismissive of what Elizabeth was saying and sort of plays dumb about what she's saying Like he kind of rolls his eyes and says well, it's not actually Che Guevara's face. It's just a shirt We're spending this whole series Learning about how Jay-Z is a master of wordplay and metaphor I think he's perfectly capable of understanding that that's not what Elizabeth was saying He understands the concept of communicating through symbolism So to me, that was a pretty frustrating example of how this brilliant man can get sort of Willfully obtuse when his principles and politics are getting pressed Jay-Z willfully obtuse never Shamirah, you look like you had some thoughts on that as as Jay was talking there Yeah, you know, I find it interesting That he brought that moment up in the documentary largely because it's 20 years ago and it just shows that it like clearly still Sticks at his memory and it really aggravates him which I find fascinating and I actually think this is probably the most candid He's been about his relationship with capitalism You know outside of like the occasional Twitter space where he's invented about like chick knowledge and things like that but like in this capacity, you know He's being very clear that he views capitalism as a liberation tool for the underclass Whether or not you agree, right? And I definitely disagree, right? But I think there's a lot of assumption that Jay-Z is like this children horse or is being duped into being a crony for like billionaire capitalists and I think if there's one thing you can take away from this eight episode structure is that he genuinely believes that the hustle and Capitalism saved him and he thinks he can use that to liberate other people now whether or not that's possible I would argue not but I think that's the most explicit he's been about his belief of what his riches are worth and why he's going to sacrifice his Privacy for it if I may if I may have sympathy for a billionaire on the radio for a moment And I know I don't feel good about this either but if I may have sympathy for a billionaire for a moment I can understand a world where Jay-Z came up and said there are no there are so few black billionaires or no black billionaires I shall become one of them and then as he does so endeavor to do so and arrives at that finish line The rules of the game change and now he's hearing actually every billionaire is a policy failure every billionaire is a let down of the movement But the rules of the game did switch on him. I admire Jay-Z for being someone who's pretty good at keeping up with how the rules of the game switch This one feels like it actually he has not done so yet Jay smooth What do you make of this sort of like cognitive dissonance between those ideas? Yeah, no, I think you are quite correct on that I think he came of age at a time when you know black capitalism letting all the boats rise was something that you were commonly taught and There's been a shift towards thinking more critically about how you inhabit this capitalist system that I think He's having trouble adapting to where you know We certainly see as an artist. He's incredible at adapting to the times and where the culture is Yeah, wish we could have asked him about black Republicans Yeah, well, okay to that end actually like the people who would ask him but that are not Recrubin A lot of respect for Recrubin being the person to do this obviously someone who's worked with everyone from Johnny Cash Do Kanye West to the red hot chili peppers to Jay-Z himself, but there are places where Rick Rubin Maybe can't go in the conversation. Did you feel any limitations in that way Shamir? Um, you know, I definitely felt like there was a lot of elephant in the room moments right where Rick Rubin is doing this kind of like Wide-eyed wonder thing like oh my god. Tell me what it was like in eighties when hip hop I'm like what do you mean you were there? Like you you're literally talking about recommend stores You actually went to you helped about the label, right? So that's just got just any Jeff Jay one of the most important labels in it. Okay. Yeah, yeah And so we just left a lot of weird space and I think in concept it was supposed to open up the conversation to talk about those kind of You know elephants in the room, but unfortunately Jay just seemed unwilling to do that, right? So we don't hear about like those major sort of moments that shifted his mentality Jay, what about you? Did you feel like there was a built-in limitation for where Rick Rubin can go in the conversation? Yeah, I mean first of all, I have to admit my bias I'm very irritated by this sort of mystical guru persona that Rick Rubin is taking up on himself help creativity book in the last Yeah, I keep wanting it. I keep wanting him to just put his shoes back on and act regular That that being said he does like he's certainly earned a place at this table You know, it's been a witness to so much history and made history and when times when they start nerding out about hip hop minutiae like public enemies production style versus end up production style. I love that stuff But what we don't get, you know, for a conversation of this length I do want more structure and to dig a little deeper and have moments like when Tana Hossecoats asks Obama Like what do you think James Baldwin would say about your legacy? You're not getting that sort of moment from Rick Rubin and I think Jay has Rick Rubin there because he knows You're not going to get that kind of moment from Rick Rubin. So it's got his pros and cons Ryan down the words Rick Rubin is not Tana Hossecoats noted Shamira last question before we go. Jay is very adept at moving in silence when he wants to He has been quite loud over the last few months, right? So he's he's doing a bunch of different stuff He's doing the anniversaries of two of his biggest albums both reasonable dad and the blueprint is done this sort of limited stadium Two-verse situation Um, he was also at the roots picnic. He cut off his locks that created a lot of conversation There's a lot of speculation that he could be the headliner of the Super Bowl Which is of course interesting because he has been the one producing the Super Bowl halftime show For the last six years. So do you think that's where we're headed here? Like do you think like Jay-Z sort of angling towards a crowning Jay-Z pop culture moment? It's an interesting question because you know Jay-Z doing three nights at Yankee Stadium Which were for the record record breaking nights, you know over $10 million so that every single night I think it's over 45 total Um, I think is his equivalent of like kind of Bruce Springsteen or Elton John do you know residency at MSG in a transition to legacy artists, right? And the Super Bowl has stopped being like a space for legacy art for quite some time now for at least like 20 years at this point And so if there was any time for Jay to want to take that stage, it kind of has to be now, right? You know, he's kind of announcing that he's passing the torch informally with these sort of limited, you know, engagements And so I think if he wanted to do it, this is the year that he asked to kind of strike while the iron is hot I don't think the window opens up for him or any aperture opens up anytime soon after. I may have 1,000 criticisms of Jay-Z But if he does the Super Bowl halftime show and he opens with you don't know I'm back in I'm back simply I've forgotten all the criticisms I have subtly it's not I am okay like all billionaires are fine actually I really appreciate your time you guys has been really wonderful. Thanks again for your time Thank you. Thank you. Of course good to talk to you. Shamir Ibrahim is a Canadian born culture critic based in New York And Jay smooth is a veteran hip-hop broadcaster and culture critic also based in New York You can stream all eight episodes of Jay-Z and eight right now on Crave Hey, it's Danielle and Cali your hosts of in three Canada's number one entertainment news podcast I've spent more time with Taylor Swift than most other people were media pros We hosted the Verity screening besties how we has become the hottest backstreet boy Said no one but you ever ever and insiders who have seen it all I RL Oscars Golden Globes you name it We have been there with access to the biggest talent welcome to in three Patrick Jay Adam The fun starts in three you know who's not gonna survive this dad talk oh new episodes Mondays and Thursdays You Amma lamine up to my mood and this is commotion look one of the realities is zombies just never dip in popularity Every generation has his own big zombie pop culture moment Maybe yours was Michael Jackson's thriller video mine was the movie 28 days later right now In theaters resident evil is out also the last of us is a big hit for HBO So there's a lot of zombies around all the time, but what do you actually know about the zombie? There's a new documentary it's called black zombie and it explores the history of how we got the zombie I'll also why they aren't the monsters of Hollywood says that they are Maya and unique bed word is here how hello. How's it going? Hi good good to have you here. I'm we're gonna talk about your film really excited about it But first I want to start by playing a clip from the trailer There's this long history and fascination with zombies in American cinema People's taste board is insatiable you can run as fast as you on it. They would oh it's There are a lot of people who loves zombies now have no idea of its roots Maya that is from your documentary black zombie before we get into the history at Hollywood Just can't give up the zombie it seems It's just always just keeps coming back over and over Why is the zombie so fascinating to Hollywood you think? Yeah, I mean that's a great question I think a lot of people have different thoughts on that but I What seems to be the kind of continuous threaded and all is that it's an easy stand-in for a lot of different social ills So if you think about maybe like a pandemic or some type of atomic catastrophe or even consumerism like it often seems to be kind of an easy metaphor For us and I think you know, I'm a millennial. I grew up with 28 days later and walking dead and I think Like I think in a lot of these more contemporary zombie films or TV shows. It's really in this setting. That's the this near post-apocalyptic future where everything that you know and everyone you can count on is no longer there and you really have to face this kind of, this unknown, this catastrophe. And it allows us to play out a lot of our fears in this kind of future of unknown. I think your point, I think that's how I react to the zombie also, like every big zombie moment seems to me tied to a larger social context that was happening at the time. Like the last of us wouldn't be as big as it was if it didn't come right after the pandemic. I don't think the same way that the walking dead served to me as a kind of a metaphor for the war on terror and sort of trying to figure out who's the other and who's like a part of the people you should protect. But that's, that's the, we got to get to I think like the larger context of how the zombie got here because your film traces the actual history of zombies. It's not the thing that you see in the movies. Can you just talk to us like where the zombie comes from? Yeah. So it actually comes from Haitian Vodoo. It's a metaphor for slavery in Haitian Vodoo and Vodoo, which you know is popularly understood as voodoo as this kind of black magic, which it really isn't, is a religion in Haiti. And you know, it's a beautiful religion with a complex cosmology where the spirits and the ancestors are venerated. And in that context, one of the interesting things in their belief system, something that really strikes me as a relationship with death. And death for them is not an end. It's actually an opportunity to return, return to this alada or guinea that it's often called, which is like a mythical Africa where they're finally able to reconnect with the ancestors and the spirits. And if you think about that in the context of slavery, if you're an enslaved person, it's like, here's this opportunity to finally go home and be free. It's this ultimate freedom and the zombie in that context is someone who wishes ill on you and prevents your spirit from doing this return. So they're no longer able to reconnect and find freedom and they're forced to stay enslaved, not only in the present life, but also in the afterlife. So it's this really tragic, eternal slavery. Hmm. Maya, I got to tell you, I've seen literally hundreds of zombie movies and I did not know that that was the history and the origin point of the zombie, so it goes back to voidoo. But like, that's the real history. How does Hollywood then get a hold of the idea of the zombie? Yeah, it's actually a pretty direct and clear journey. There was this man named William C. Brick who was living in Haiti at the time of the US occupation back in the 1930s, and he was there to learn about voidoo. He was initiating voidoo and he wrote a lot of articles and a famous book about it called The Magic Island. And in that book, there was a chapter about his encounter of meeting alleged zombies. And it's that chapter that inspired the very first Hollywood zombie film called White Zombie. And that's kind of what sparked like the zombie phenomena in Western media. And it's how we got to learn of the zombie in the United States and in the Western world. And from there, we got a whole slew of zombie films that came out in the 30s and then eventually in 1968, the very famous Night of the Living Dead was created, which developed a flesh eating zombie that we all know today. And that's how it happened. When you take something so far out of its context and then it becomes its own separate machine, I imagine it has a significant effect on its origin point. So what effect do all these movies have on the voidoo faith? Yeah. So I mean, voidoo is a really powerful religion. It was actually what sparked one of the most important movements of black liberation, the Haitian revolution. It was really central to the spiritual resistance that happened at the time. And nowadays, people from when they think about voodoo, they think about black magic. It's synonymous with black magic and voodoo dolls and turning people into zombies and the stark nefarious activity that happens on these mysterious Caribbean islands. And in fact, it's a religion like no other that deserves the same respect. And actually as a black person, you know, houses a lot of really important stories and traditions and history that predate colonialism. So my, like, the thing that surprised me is how available this history is. I mean, like some of the stuff that you that you cited and I was like, I just never looked into it. I really crossed my mind even having seen hundreds of zombie movies, never crossed my mind to ask, hey, where does this figure come from? How does a history like bat get hidden from us? How does a history like that become sort of unavailable to the public, if you will? Mm-hmm. I mean, that's a really great question. And I think, you know, when the zombie was first extracted from Haiti, it was the 1930s. It was during the U.S. occupation of Haiti. It was also the time of Jim Crow at its height in the United States. And I think there was a real agenda by white people to really villainize black people, to justify the oppression and racial subjugation that was happening. And that's where the zombie as a, as a popular media figure was born. And that's why we see like all these really racist stereotypes in those early zombie films. And then it's so interesting because night of the loving dead was like that real pivot where the fleshing zombie was born and kind of zombie went into a totally other direction. And it actually features it, the main character is black, Dwayne Jones, and it actually kind of has these racial undertones. But it's interesting how, you know, this film really connects back to kind of these movements of black liberation that are so intrinsic to Vodoo, but it kind of all gets lost. And it just becomes this like fanfare of Gore and, you know, monsters eating brains. And we really lose the history. Hey, there's something about the idea of it being lost and yet is sort of still buried right there into the surface, much like a zombie. In your documentary, you do play this clip that's from Family Feud, and I just like watching that. I was like, oh, that's the perfect metaphor for this. And I just want to take a moment and play that clip of you to mind. Let's roll it. Ladies, here we go. We've got the top six answers on the board. Name something you know about zombies. Kristi. Black. They're black. Okay. I don't know if they're white or white, this is how we-- And Steve Harvey is having a tough time with that reaction, I think. What was your reaction when you found that clip? Like, well, you're like, that's it right there. That's the whole metaphor. Totally. I mean, when I saw that clip, especially not only is it as Steve Harvey, but the other contestants are a black family, and they're just like, you see the reactions and they're like, oh, my God. Like, where is this coming from? And she just has no idea herself. And it just shows you how this like, even though we don't talk about the origin of the zombie. It's really seeped into our subconscious. And it really plays out in different ways. And especially the way we still talk about Vodoo. Like, you still see so many horror films with these like, horrible racist tropes about the religion. Yeah. There's so rarely do you see somebody just pulling so directly from their subconscious. They're like, I have not analyzed this at all, but here's a thought. I don't know why I have this association. I think zombie, I go, black, that's the first word that's coming to mind you. And in the doc, you do have one person who says, blackness and Vodoo became the monstrosity of the story. Do you want to talk a little bit about that central idea there? Yeah. I think that's really like talking back to these early 1930s films where, you know, often, sometimes it's said in '80s, sometimes it's just some, you know, nondescript scary Caribbean island where there's this nefarious activity happening and they're, you know, poking dolls with pins and turning people into zombies. And this is where, like, our understanding of Vodoo or Vodoo as black magic really stems from. And it's in this context where we really get to see like this switch that happens in the conversations of zombies and the thing to fear, like, is not actually being turned into a zombie, which is what most Haitians fear, like, you don't want to be re-inslaived. And it's actually the zombie itself. And I think it's such a, you know, powerful view for, like, this villainization that happens to black people and justification, you know, ultimately of harm to black people. I think one of the things that your documentary does so well is to say that actually that harm is not some kind of harm that happens in the past. It has a continued sort of legacy. That misrepresentation history actually plays that in the political history and the countries like a Haiti's current political reality. Do you want to talk a little bit about how that legacy is sort of still alive today? Totally. So, I think, like, you know, it's not very, it's not common knowledge, the history of Haiti, which I think is, you know, something so much of us are so much to Haiti had the very first and only successful revolution by a group of black enslaved people. they basically changed the game for the colonial map. And it was an incredible event that happened that's just been completely erased from the history books. And afterwards, after that, they've been punished ever since for this uprising. And it's really been proactive thing by the colonial powers to destroy their economy and make them an unviable state. And that's, you know, what they're still dealing with today. And right now, they're dealing with such economic uncertainty and, you know, political chaos and gang violence. Things have just become so dangerous. So many cultural spaces that we actually visited during our research and our shooting no longer exist. They've all been burned down because of the situation that's happening today. And I wish it was more part of the conversation because I think, you know, Haiti is this incredible country. And especially as a black person, I think I owe so much of my freedoms to that country. I think my last question for you will be something around this idea of if we are trying to do a repair, right, to a broken idea that we have of the zombie. I inherited idea. We have a zombie that is inherently colonial and inherently sort of reinforces a damaging idea of what the zombie is. Are there horror movies that are sort of trying to change how we think about the zombie or doing it in an appropriate way that feels like, oh, that's the direction to go. That's actually putting something back into history that has kind of been taken away. Totally. And I don't think it's a coincidence that the films that really, you know, move me in that way are made by black filmmakers, which is why I think I need to support more black filmmakers. But I would say, you know, get out to me is like a true zombie film. Jordan Peel's getting out. Yeah, Jordan Peel's get out. Like I think if you put it into the context of the Haitian zombie, the sunken place, you know, really mirrors this idea of spiritual disconnection that happens. And I think it's an incredibly powerful zombie film. I also really love Maddie Diep's Atlanteek, which is a beautiful film that incorporates these ideas of zombies in its exploration of the refugee crisis and how African migrants are treated. I've not seen that Atlantic. I've seen get out. I think probably half a dozen times. And it's still not enough. I think there's so much in that movie. They can just kind of like anytime that I walk around, I can pause it any scene and go. There's so much going on here. And yet it still sort of works as a movie that is entertaining. But I'm like, I just want more films like this. So those are great recommendations. I really appreciate your time. Maya, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Thank you so much for having me. Yes, of course. Maya, Nick Bedward is a director and producer working in film and television. Her debut feature, Black Zombie, is screening across Canada and select theaters right now. My name is Elimine Abdelmaimud. This show is called "Comotion. We'll be back tomorrow." We would love to see you then. [Music] For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca/podcasts.