Welcome to Food Marketing Nerds, your weekly serving of marketing advice and industry insights with the smartest minds in the business. Here's your host, Alex Osterly. Patty folks, on the show today we have David Zinn, co-founder and president of Devosh. If you're not already familiar, Devosh makes the line of all natural sweeteners which are derived from superfoods, like dates and sweet potatoes. Think serubs and nectar accept 25% less sugar than regular honey. While the idea of using dates to create a sweetener is pretty new in the US, dates syrup has been around for a long time, like dating back to the Biblical era. During a trip to the Middle East, David and his best friend Brian tried dates syrup for the first time and became obsessed. Realizing there's nothing really like it, sold in the US, David and Brian soon partnered up, founding what would become Devosh. In just a couple years, Devosh went from two buddies selling dates syrup at a farmer's market to now, being sold in over 5,000 stores and a growing, innovative product line. On today's episode, David takes us through how he and his partner scaled the business up from developing the product to shifting to a co-packer to landing the golden ticket of their first Walmart PO. Obviously, things have been going pretty well for Devosh, but they were certainly learning moments in the process and David shares all that with us in today's episode. Whether you're thinking of starting your own food company in the midst of scaling or trying to gain more market share, David's interview will leave you with plenty of savvy marketing ideas applicable at almost any company size. So, let's go chat with David. David, thank you for joining us. It's great to be here, Alex. Thanks so much as well. The technical glitches aside, glad we made it happen. Likewise, likewise. So tell us a little bit more about Devosh, what's your story that led you to starting the company? Yes, so the story actually starts about 15 years ago now. My best friend announced business partner, Brian Finkel, and we were actually on a slidia broad trip in the Middle East. And that was really the first time both of us came across states, and we're both so impressed with the fruit. I'm from the Midwest, initially, I'm from Cleveland, Brian's from Chicago. And we were just so impressed with the fruit. We loved it. We're like, wow, this is crazy. It's amazing how delicious it is, all the antioxidants really is the ultimate superfood. And about 15 years ago, you didn't really see it in the grocery stores, wasn't as popular as it is today. And so Brian and I always wanted to start a business together. And we were constantly thinking of ideas, talking about ideas, and did it all throughout college. And then when we both graduated, we both actually took jobs and finance, and occasionally would talk about launching new ideas and starting a company together. And Brian actually took a job overseas and used covering the Asian markets in the Middle East and around that same time, I actually started a organic fruit scent company with my cousin and one of my best friends. And so that was kind of what initially spurred the creative side. We did that and that was really incredible. And then Brian came to me and he said, I came across this amazing product that happens to be derived from dates. It's called Ceylon, which happens to be dates here. And Brian said, he said, have you ever seen this in the US? And I said, honestly, no. And he sent me over a couple bottles. I went all over to Whole Foods, Sprouts, all the supermarkets in LA. Couldn't find anything. And I said, I love this product. It's clean, it's healthy, there's no added sugar, no preservatives, it's derived from ugly produce. Let's give it a try. So we started out really small at farmers markets. And from there, we were able to really prove out the concept, it was really incredible. What was the process like when you first decided, all right, let's go for this and having your first product? Great question. We looked up a bunch of recipes online and we probably spent more time in the kitchen than we ever expected to and we just constantly talked to everybody we knew. We had a lot of friends that were from like Persia or Iran, Syria, Israel. And we were constantly asking everybody, their families, hey, are you familiar with this? Did your grandparents ever make it? And it turned out that a lot of people were very familiar with dates here. And so initially the way that we started, we started making it on our own. And then from there, we ended up going to a co-packer. But we really had to prove out the concept first on our own in order to make sure that this was a viable business. What did the name D-Vash come from? That's a great question. The word D-Vash actually means honey and Hebrew. And so when Brian and I were in Israel, there is a saying that the land flows with milk and honey. And the honey that they're alluding to is actually from dates. It's from the date palm. And so date syrup is like the OG honey. And so we kind of thought it was a cool memory. It was a cool little story. And we thought the name just sounded awesome too. It's kind of like hogging that. You're never going to forget that name. It's one of those things. It might be a little hard to pronounce the first time. But it's memorable. It sticks with you. And we like the fact that it had the historical aspect behind it. And it also reminded us of all the great times that we had together, especially the first time we met as well. So I'm over here pronouncing it like an idiot. It's Davosh, not D-Vash. No, no, no. But everybody pronounces like D-Vash, Davosh. It's tough with the apostrophe. We went through a bunch of names, but this is the one that really just stuck the most. At least when talking to people at the farmers markets. So can you talk to the point of kind of the inflection point in the business when you decided to move to a co-packer? Yeah, absolutely. A lot of it was it became too large to manage. We did a couple farmers markets and we're selling out like crazy. And it was one of those things where we would have had to hire so many people in order to produce more products. It's one of those things early on as a business where you don't take into consideration your own value or your own time value of money. You're working for free as an owner. And so it's one of those things if we need to get a larger kitchen, if we had to hire more people, it's important that you can really run a business profitably. And so we finally got it to a point where with the farmers markets and the real inflection point is really the fact that Whole Foods gave us an opportunity. But we knew that we would have a home for all the units. So Whole Foods in Southern California through the local program, they've been a great partner of ours for many years now. They decided to bring us in. It's really Whole Foods, Wegmans and Wegmans really, they were the two retailers that gave us a chance. And so we proved out our model at the farmers markets. And then from there, it was really starting out small at Whole Foods in California has about 56, 57 stores or in SoCal. And then Wegmans has about 90 stores. So we knew that we had the retail behind us so that we could then produce the product and carry enough inventory. And so before you start with a co-packer, doing the farmers markets two, three times a week, it's phenomenal, but co-packers have huge minimums. And so we needed to make sure that if we were going to pour the working capital into this, we were going to have a proper home for all the bottles. Was that kind of a challenging balance of your sales only being through farmers markets, but trying to get into these bigger stores and really sell the blue sky of what we could do this? Absolutely. And so it's one of those things where you have to be very careful. You don't want to bite off more than you could chew. And Whole Foods in Wegmans really helped us prove out the concept. But then the same thing and I advise a lot of small companies where you want to be careful. Once you get into a couple of these stores, and I always advise to try to get into Wegmans and Whole Foods first because they give you access to your retail data so you can really tell how well you're selling and what your terms are and what your philosophy is. And then you can use that to show other retailers how well you're moving. You don't want to go into too many retail stores at once because you need to make sure that you can really focus on growing in the stores you're already in. It really all depends on your marketing budget. But for us, it's like we then had Maya come at us, Walmart, and that's really what forced us then to raise capital because we said, look, we're no longer a two-man band. We need to build this into something. We're turning this into something special, something great. We have all this opportunity coming our way. We do not want to bite off more than we can chew and go underwater. We don't want to take our limited marketing budget and spread ourselves to thin. We have to make sure that we'll be able to properly support all the retailers equally. And so Whole Foods and Wegmans really allowed us to do that and prove out our model. We figured out all the kinks with them and then had been able to replicate that and apply it to all the new accounts that we're in today. What would you say were some of the bigger kinks looking back on it? The biggest kinks I would say is learning how to say no. We definitely didn't say no to certain stores that we probably should have initially. They were just a little too big for us. I think our eyes were just so excited to. There's no better feeling than when you see your product on shelf. Really one of the coolest feelings here. You work crazy to get this thing made. It's an idea and you're really turning it into something. And then there's nothing like walking the store, seeing your product on shelf and just watching it and seeing a stranger who never knew, never spoke to pick it up and put it in their basket or in their cart. And so that's definitely the best thing you get to ask for. But with that being said, with the product going on shelf, it's not going to move itself. So you're reliant on a lot of things.
lot of outliers, like your branding has to be incredible, your pricing has to be right, you have to have a quality product, you have to be able to explain it, it has to be self-explanatory. You need some of you within two seconds to understand what it is that you exactly have and why they should have it. And so for us in the beginning with our organic skew, we called the product the date nectar and we did that because it was premium, it was organic, we used expensive, mid-dial dates and we then realized like six months later after going out shells, we realized through Amazon that the number one search word is date syrup. And so we said, you know what, we should really switch. We always thought that the word syrup had like a negative, unhealthy connotation associated with it, like the maple syrup or just the pancake syrup. But it turned out that's what people were familiar with and so we pivoted and we saw our sales increase exponentially by making that slight small modification. And so it's still a constant learning process. But I'd say the two biggest things are just because you have the opportunity to go on shelf, don't say yes unless you can absolutely make sure you can support the stores. And the second thing I would say is don't be afraid to pivot if the market is telling you something and especially if you have access to the research, all the data that's out there today, don't fight it. Obviously go with your gut instincts, but at the same time, the numbers don't lie. If the data is telling you one thing, you should really take a better look at it. So in terms of being able to support a new store or what in an ideal situation, I guess what's the bare minimum of support look like in your mind? I would say the bare minimum of support is, I mean, look in the new world post COVID, it's definitely an interesting one. And I would say demos for us were huge. Deeds syrup was a relatively new product in the U.S. and it's still a new product. It's very nascent. And demos were the best because once people tried it, they loved it. They bought it. It was really fantastic. And I think you need to make sure that you can do promotions. A lot of people like to do 15 to 20% off one month or quarter. I think it's important that you can do like local giveaways. I think one of the biggest things that a lot of people don't take into consideration or value is really getting to know the people at the store. I mean, they are yours. They can turn it into the best sales people there is. So like for us, something that we've really started to do is we get to know the people on the ground locally. And we make a point or at least previous prior to COVID, we would do this all the time. We would go in there, introduce ourselves, give people sweatshirts, give people hats, and really get to know them, tell them about our products. And then it's one of those things. If people see somebody who works at the store near the aisle and they see a product, you be surprised how many people say, "Oh, have you ever tried this before? This looks interesting." And if that person can say something positive about your product to them, well, that could be a sale right there. And that could be a new consumer. And so I think the biggest things are really making sure you can do the standard discounts and making sure, I mean, ideally, if you could do demos, that would be amazing. Making sure that you're able to do something that instigates trial and that excites people to at least learn more about your products. So having grown your distribution to over 5,000 stores now in a pretty short time frame, just looking back at that growth curve. Was there any point on there that jumps out of you as being, by far, the most difficult? Absolutely. I mean, it's one of those things when we knew that Walmart came knocking on the door, we didn't want to say no. It was probably when we knew we really had to go out and raise money. And it was too big of an opportunity to pass up. And I think, look, it's a big thing. I'm a big believer in bootstrapping, running lean and mean. But at the same time, if you want to grow in today's industry, you need to be willing to spend money. And like, one of the biggest things that people, I think, also don't realize that goes back to your previous question is, you need to be willing and able to do free fills. And so a free fill becomes very costly because you need to be able to give one case per store per skew, usually for free or 50% off. And now, we do our best to negotiate with retailers to try to get that. We try to see if we can give them other deals, other discount states here, it's kind of like olive oil. It's very expensive. It's very costly to produce. And so we try to put our money into other types of promotions rather than free goods. But a lot of retailers will require that, which becomes very, very expensive. And when you work with some of these large stores like H.E.B., Safeway, Albertsons, even Whole Foods, it's just part of it is the cost of doing business. So you have to make sure that you have the money available to produce a set of goods for free and then have the money available again to produce additional goods so that you can get paid on the second go round. And so I think that that's something that a lot of young brands don't realize that you have to go into this, been willing to give away so much free product. And that's a lot of money, it certainly adds up. You just have to really believe in your product and in your team. And if you have a good team and a good product and strong margins, then you can make it work. So is that typically run into the initial PO or is that kind of pre-order? That's usually part of the initial PO. So usually the first purchase order of the way it works, you'll receive it from either directly from the retailer or from the distributor. If you get it from the distributor, then you're actually, this is where it can become really hard to digest as a small business. You go into a negative balance with the distributor because the distributor is not going to give away the product for free. So you then have to reimburse the distributor or wait till you re-hit a positive balance so that you'll then get a check of whatever your positive balance is, minus your free fill. And that's where I think a lot of brands get hit pretty hard because they're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I didn't realize what was going to happen. I still thought I was going to make money." And it's like, "Wait, you're not going to cut me a check until I'm out of that negative balance." And so I think it's really critical that brands understand everything that goes into this before they just immediately jump into working with distributors and retailers. I think they have to make sure they have the financial support, the strong margins, and the capacity of production in order to really be successful long-term. Yeah, that is rough. You're paying the cost of goods and then you're paying the distributor's price, double paying for it pretty much. So what was the process of raising capital like? It was tough. I mean, for us, we were very fortunate. We met a great fund and they ended up taking a chance on us. But yeah, I mean, it's not easy. That says it's easy. That's fantastic. Good for them. I mean, for us, we definitely got rejected. Probably the first six, seven times we spoke to people. I mean, the first time we raised was actually through friends and family. So that was easier than most of what makes it so difficult is that you're taking money from like family you absolutely love. And it's like, this better be successful because this is your family, your friends. Like, these are people who they're believing in you. And so it pushes you that much more to hustle because they're a part of this. And you appreciate so much that I'm taking a chance on you, at least we do. And so that was the first round. We raised money from friends and family and then after that, you know, we're fortunate enough to work with an incredible fund. You know, they've been really amazing to work with and operate. But it still wasn't easy. It took time. We had to prove them. We had to meet with them many times. We really had to show them that we had a winner on our hands and it's been really great. They've been the only fund that we've worked with since the beginning and we're very fortunate and very blessed to have gotten to work with them. So what was the time frame so you get this PO or at least interest from Walmart and then have to, I don't know if you're rushing out or at least have some sense of urgency to go get funding. How long did that take from first getting contacted by Walmart to finally getting funding? It's funny. We actually, the one thing that we've done really well is Brian and I, you know, they're great brokers out there in the industry. But we worked with a couple brokers in the beginning. They just weren't the right fit for us and we've done everything on our own without brokers. And so we've hired an incredible team of in-house business development associates. You know, we've really built down an incredible model. And so we actually got into Walmart through something called Open Call. And so that's actually the day that Walmart invites everybody from all over the US to come in and pitch their products. And so we just applied. We saw it in an ad in the newspaper. I think it was either the Wall Street Journal or one of the business journals. And we saw it and we applied and we were accepted and we were granted buyers' meetings. And it was really that opportunity. We met with like six different buyers from the grocery department and it was great. There were like three buyers that loved our product. And so they were only going to let one of them take it. But we at least knew that day that Walmart was taking our product. And so it was then on us. It was really our top priority. It still is one of our top priorities. And we really stood on top of it every day. But then a second we had that. That was kind of like the winning ticket. It was like Willy Wonka. You got the golden ticket. And then we were able to go back to all of our investors and potential investors and funds and people were talking to them. We're like, look, Walmart's taking a chance on us. We've hit it out of the park with Whole Foods. We hit it out of the park with Wegmans. We got into sprouts and now we're going into Walmart. And this is just going to need to begin. We're going to launch a whole bunch of new skews. But this is really just the beginning. More than money we need to make sure we have the right advisors on board, the right guidance, the right advice because we're entering the big leagues. And so that was really the thing.
of a game changer, but that really did a lot for us. But it was really a few things that made that happen. It was one, I think we do have an incredible product and a great team and we have really strong margins. But two, we had the data previously from Whole Foods and Wagon showing that we had strong sales, especially at Whole Foods. And then the fact that Walmart wanted to give us a try, that was really the icing on the cake. And I think that's really what helped seal the deal. Plus all the new ideas and products that we had in pipeline. So I think people don't want you to focus too much on many other things, you need to focus on what's doing well today. But at the same time, people wanted to make sure that we had the capability and ability to also launch new skews in order to remain relevant in the world we live in today too. - That's exciting stuff. Exciting point to be at. What was it doing? A little research inside the Whole Foods and Martha Stewart named you guys one of the top food trends for 2020. - Yeah, no, that was awesome. I mean, we were really blessed when that happened. And that was largely us attending Expo West. We came across some of the editors and we just walked up to anyone and everyone. And that's how we landed some of our biggest deals. You know, if we saw somebody with a Costco badge, we just run up to them and of course we'd be respectful, but we would just start talking to them. And you know, same thing. Anybody that had an editor badge, we would say, hey, we always had these little sample bottles of dates here in our pockets. And we'd say, hey, just take this home. Let us know how you think about it. Here's our business card. And then the rest was usually history. - That's pretty amazing. Without these types of expos or networking events, how is the pandemic changed how you guys go about your business? - Yeah, it's definitely been crazy. I mean, it's one of those things where we got lucky because the pancake sector is incredibly popular right now. So you have so many parents staying at home. You have so many parents looking to make breakfast fun again. And I think we hit the jackpot and got really lucky because a lot of parents are looking for healthy alternative sugars. The fact that we have 25% of our sugar that honey is huge, juvenile diabetes, childhood obesity is on the rise. So the fact that we have a product that really combats that along with reduces food waste, I think it's really a win-win, it checks all the boxes. In terms of still getting out there and educating people that we exist, getting on their radar, there's a lot of people that are at home. I mean, one of the unique things that we've been doing is we actually create personalized video messages to different buyers. And so a lot of these buyers get a million emails a day and we really want to make it unique. So we'll make a short little blurb, short little funny video and talk you about our product. And it's like, look, if we can't have the trade show, we're gonna bring the trade show to that. And so we're gonna give them that experience. And so that's happened to work really well. It's very unique, very different. That's one of those things where we record ourselves, talking about the different products, showing how we use them, then we go into a basic presentation where we found by actually sending a video over his really done a lot in order to educate and generate awareness and at least get our foot in the door. - That's a really good idea. Do you guys produce those in-house? Or is it, do you go for production value or is it that kind of missing the point? - We have a great internal team in-house who helps us with all that. But a lot of them all do on my own. Like, something like the first couple, we had help with, but now it's pretty much, we keep it real and we found that that's what people really want to see. I mean, even on Instagram, we found that the biggest thing is really making sure that it's real and authentic. And so even if it's not the best video, I think people really appreciate it when it's something that's coming from just a regular person because they get to see how it's used on a regular daily basis. - So kind of on that same train of thought, how have you found the most effective way of getting your message out there about the benefit of Devosh versus Honey? Or really any benefit? - One of the best things that we've done is we've partnered with various chefs on Instagram and TikTok and people that just like to cook. And a lot of it is finding other people to tell your story for you because that is what makes a product amazing. People like to talk about things that they like. And so everybody always asks, "What's the secrets of being successful in marketing?" Is figuring out how to develop a product that can generate the word of mouth traction. And so if you can build a product that people are excited to talk about, share with their friends, make it the new big thing, well then you can absolutely win in today's world. And that's not easy to do. But what we figured out is we reach out to a ton of chefs every day. We have two people in our office that that's all they do. They're just constantly reaching out. And it's been pretty unbelievable. You'd be surprised what people are willing to do for a product. And look, when we send people all four of our skews that equates to $40 or $50. So a lot of people are very happy to create a video, create some awesome content for a $50 gift. So we're not just giving something away that costs like a dollar or $2. Like they feel when they receive a bottle of debauch, they feel like they're receiving something special. And so being a startup, still running lean and mean, I found that yes, working with certain influencers can be incredibly beneficial. But there's a lot of people out there that if you can educate and have them help you tell your story, you can really win and become a household item. Yeah, that's a super innovative and smart way to approach influencer marketing, more of ambassador programs in general. Do you have any examples of success story from that chef ambassador program? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's been really phenomenal. What we started to do is we've created affiliate marketing programs with the chefs. And so the ones that post and we see a lot of traction, we say, hey, we'll take it to the next level. We'll give you 5% commission on anything you sell. And so we'll give you a coupon code so we can track everything. That's really been the most amazing thing. It's the chefs love it because they're making money on educating people about our products. And we love it because it's become a real authentic way to generate awareness for our company as well. Yeah, super smart. It's not free marketing, but you're not paying after the fact. Paying on results. Right, exactly. Paying on results. For anyone considering starting their own ambassador program, what advice have you give? I would say start small. That's probably the best advice. I think us millennials today were so eager, so excited to go bigger, go home. And while I love that model in philosophy, you don't need to. And I think start with five ambassadors, ten ambassadors, see what works, actually develop a relationship with people. That's the thing. Find your super fans. And that's what we've done. Find your five super fans. And then that will, they'll share with their circles. And then find another five super fans. And then that's how you can really create this domino effect that really just explodes. And you create so much awareness. And it really turns into something special and something really cool. I mean, we have a lot of chefs who work with now that love using our products. They've even incorporated into their caterers, into their catering departments. And so their restaurants and their bars. And forget the sales aspect of it. It's become just really awesome. When you go to a bar and you see a cocktail, an old-fashioned or Manhattan that's using Duvach dates here. And so that, when people are going and they read the menu and they see your product, subconsciously, it generates that overall awareness that people become more familiar with over time. Yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, especially depending on the bar, it's at or what ambiance that could be at super strong brand awareness for just elevating the product, making it premiumizing, for sure. Absolutely. So you touched on this briefly already. How Duvach is helping reduce food waste. And curious, can you speak to that a little further? Sure. So yeah, we buy ugly dates. And so a lot of the retailers today, they want like great age dates. They want great day fruits and vegetables. And so there's a lot of ugly produce out there. It's one of those things where there's just too much. There's fit people just overgrow. And the farms have a surplus. And they don't know what to do with it. And so it's one of those things where blessed to live in a country and in a world with just so many options. And it is a shame because there's so many people. It's wild. You see, I think I read somewhere that there's 14 million Americans that remain hungry or go to bed hungry every day when there's just so much food waste. It's awful. And so we really wanted to do our part. We figured, hey, instead of buying the same dates that everybody else wants to sell, because they're more aesthetically pleasing, why don't we buy the ugly ones since we're converting them into healthy alternative products. So that was really what pushed us to do that. Yeah, it's very smart. Any idea what the percentage of fruit and vegetables that are produced would fall in the ugly category? I don't know. I can definitely do some research and get back to you. But it's a lot. It's really crazy. Yes. I can imagine. Well, wrapping up, we have a few questions for you that we ask each of our guests. If you could go back and give yourself a piece of advice as you were just starting to vosh, what would it be? It would definitely be learn to be patient and don't bite off more than you could show. Kind of going back to what we were discussing in the beginning. I think it's really critical that, as an entrepreneur, you need to remember that Rome wasn't built in a day. And so I was one of my advisors and good friends always said. He always said, everybody thinks my overnight success happened overnight, but they forget that that overnight happened to just take 12 to 15 years. And I think it's important to remember that, if you look, where company started and how long it finally took them to get from point A to point B, if you believe in your vision, you believe in your team,
you believe in your product and you have a real path to profitability, understanding the financials and really making sure that your margins are strong and you have a really strong supply chain. And I think that's critical. I think you'll be successful, but I think it's one of those things. Too many people go for the grand slam out of the gate when it's like just focus on the singles and doubles initially. You can win a lot of games that way too. -Awesome. Any marketing books or marketing or business books that you recommend to people? -Yeah, there's a great book called "Skaling Up" and so I'm not sure if you're familiar with it. Yes, by Vern Harnish. And it's really, really incredible. It talks about like why or how a few companies make it and why the rest don't. And it really teaches you how to master strategy, execution, people, and cash. And I'm a big fan of that one. -Awesome. Well, it's been a great interview. We really love here in the story of how you built your brand and I can't wait to see what you guys are all out with next. So speaking of which, what do you have come down the pipeline? -Yeah, so I'm really glad you brought that up, Alex. We have, it's really exciting. We're launching a line of chocolate and road dates. We're launching a line of date energy bars. We're also starting to sell a special type of variety of date called Kala State. So I'd love to send you samples of everything. It's really amazing. The chocolate and road dates are going to be made with rock and cow, no added sugar. They're going to be enrobed and hazelnuts, walnuts, and almonds. And so it's there, literally three ingredient products, rock and cow and nuts and then dates. And then the energy bars are pretty cool. It's coconut dates and then different types of nuts as well along with fruits. And then yeah, the dates are just by far the most premium delicious dates you can find. And we're actually bringing those, we're sourcing those from the Middle East. So we're really excited for that. -They have a sound amazing. Where can people go to find out more about Devosh and what you guys have coming up? -Yeah, please check us out on Instagram. Our handle is @devoshorganics. Check out our website devoshorganics.com. And we're also always launching new great things on Amazon as well. So please, and if anybody also wants to reach out, my email is just
[email protected]. I love helping entrepreneurs. And I also love talking to consumers and always great receiving feedback. So anybody who ever wants to contact us, please do. We always welcome that. -Awesome. Well, thank you so much, David. It's been a pleasure. -Thank you, Alex. Appreciate you taking the time as well. Thank you for having me. -And that's our show folks. If you're still listening, either you got some value out of this episode or you got sidetracked and just haven't hit the next button yet. If it's the first one, it would be a massive, huge favor if you could leave us a review on whatever app that you're listening to right now. It helps us get our name out there, which in turn helps us bring more great guests on the show. What I'm really saying is help us to help you. Thanks so much for tuning in and we'll be back same time, same day next week. Stay nerdy.
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