What the Lindsay Clancy Trial EXPOSES About Society, North West's Disturbing Look, and Hayden Panettiere Blame Game, with Dr. Drew | Ep. 1385

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111, every weekday at noon east. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Happy Tuesday. Well, today we've got updates for you on Hayden Panettiere and what's going on with Brad Pitt's daughter. But first, the trial that's been riveting the nation, the murder case against Lindsay Clancy, now winding down. Clancy admitted that she killed her three children, 5-year-old Cora, 3-year-old Dawson, and 8-month-old Callan, in January of 2023. But she has pleaded not guilty, thanks to mental disease or defect. Her lawyers are arguing that she had postpartum psychosis, which left her unable to understand what she was doing was wrong. There is dispute about whether, in fact, she was suffering from psychosis or not. Acknowledged that she was having mental health issues, but psychosis is something that's particular. And their experts over on the prosecution team have said that is not something that typically affects women 8 months after birth. And now we're getting into the testimony about whether she did or did not hear alleged voices. Prosecutors yesterday calling forensic psychologist Dr. Kirk Heilbrin to the stand, who cast doubts on Lindsay Clancy. Clancy's claims on this front about, did she hear voices, or did she just hear her own internal thoughts as she decided to kill her own children? Watch. The way she described this as happening is that she heard a voice that she'd never heard before, experienced an hallucination. And she's never experienced it since, but she only experienced it for the 18 minutes. She's never experienced it for the 18 minutes. Or so that it took to kill the children. And to put it mildly, that would be a very, very unusual pattern or manifestation of how this kind of thing comes about. Very unusual. I've been doing this kind of evaluation for many, many years, and I'm always very careful when someone tells me that they experienced this. that well first of all it makes me sad you're not practicing law anymore because we need you out there with a common sense approach to the reality but there's there's so much to unpack here and you did a great job of sort of bringing up the the relevance and the legal issues but let me talk a little bit about the medical stuff and then i want to get at the philosophical crux of what's going on in this case which is that the altruistic filicide is somewhat relevant from the standpoint that it's common it's it's a common preoccupation in psychosis of various types not strictly speaking postpartum psychosis and the doctor on the stand was absolutely correct to have a postpartum psychosis eight months after pregnancy is odd and to have only transient hallucinations is unusual though we don't know the extent to which he was connected to reality leading up to that which is really all that counts and the second issue that keeps because of course is that it's not unusual to have a postpartum psychosis and this is something that i think is really important to understand and i think it's something that i think the clinic brought up that really should be should have been seems to me sort of discussed here on the stand which was yes it's unusual but her medical management was also unusual and it is certainly a possibility that the medication she was receiving could have made the psychotic symptoms worse because they clearly thought they were treating depression and sometimes when people aggressively stabilizing medicine that puts her well we know they what's that someone concluded that she had she was bipolar the husband disputes that okay they put her on meds for it so someone diagnosed that and and that increases the probability of postpartum psychosis dramatically you know the vast majority of postpartum psychosis is in bipolar patients but could the medical team which was very fragmented a lot of it was done by er doctors were completely unequipped to do this and is that a possible reason that this was so odd yeah i mean i i definitely see the medical community as having had an a hand in where this wound up for sure i mean it just who hasn't had the experience of you know one doctor tells you this another doctor tells you that they don't coordinate i mean honestly like and i i am somebody i have means i can pay out of pocket for these doctors and it happens to me if you don't have good insurance and you know you're just dealing with the system as it's set up you are definitely going to get conflicting medical advice i mean i've never had it on like i don't take any you know mental health drugs but you know just regular drugs on like whatever your your flu or whatever you're you're battling and this poor woman if you as you see like the number of people weighing in the cacophony of meds that were thrown at her you can see the cocktail was dangerous and not well managed but that doesn't mean she didn't plan knowing knowing what it would do and what it would mean the murderer of her children and you know you said that the extent to which she was connected to reality leading up to the murders is relevant i mean yes it is and it doesn't bode well for her because she sent the husband out she made sure he was going to go out to get meds she made sure he was going to go to a restaurant to pick up food one that was farther away from the one they normally went to and that all looks like somebody who was planning and she's going to go to a restaurant to pick up food right for sure and i've seen several cases where women have done that in the belief that something horrible was about to happen to their kids and themselves so they kill everybody to protect them from that that's the altruistic filicide that's what he's referring to it happens it happens more than we want to admit both to schizophrenics and to postpartum psychosis it's an awful thing when it is missed and i want to make one quick pitch on what you said about the health care there needs to be a well-trained primary care doctor supervising all of it taking in the information being the ombudsman for the patient and guiding him or through him or her through it i most of my time these days is spent guiding my pain my family and friends through the health care system and i think to myself what would have happened if i hadn't been here it's just unbelievable how deficient the system is in terms of the care that people get well and actually think we're seeing some of that play out in another way than the lindsey clancy trial in my experience so i've been on the air you know with this show for about six years and in my experience there is a vast delta between traditional medicine and functional medicine and you can wind up with diametrically opposing points of view from doctors in those respective camps to where you as a civilian have no idea what to do and it's a matter of life and death and a lot of the people who are just disgusted with what's happening to lindsey clancy many of them are more functional medicine people who don't really believe in these psychotropic drugs to begin with and can't believe that this medical system just completely drugged her up so severely and then some are still in the old traditional medicine mindset and just don't understand why there wasn't as you're pointing out a primary care physician who was at the helm who was running herd on these very serious drugs being poured into this woman's body 100 percent uh and yeah i am very in favor of medical freedom covid taught us that uh people the government much to my amazement can get involved that most doctors are employees now and the employer can get involved you need to maintain the freedom for yourself and your family but primary care needs to be a part of that because no matter whether you choose somebody more functionally or allopathic oriented educate yourself and act accordingly but there's something deeper in this case that i wanted to get it's perfect day for me to talk to you about this because i've been thinking a lot about this which is a philosophical question which is that when somebody engages in violent acts of any type there's always reasons for it that are of a psychological psychiatric nature whether it's where you were brought up or the violence you experience or the trauma experience in childhood or something happened you know the but whatever it might be there are many different causational influences on somebody being violent why do we draw the line right here is the question you know why do we say well what do you mean at psychosis what there's a reason she became psychotic there was a mess here there was a lot of reasons but you look at anybody being violent i'm just proposing this as a as a sort of a polemic which is everybody has horrible backgrounds when they are violent it's always the case there's a lot of stuff there psychiatrically psychologically now why do we differentiate that from say this that's a very good question yes exactly if you picked your average gangbanger off of the streets in south chicago and looked at his childhood experience you'd be horrified yes horrified and you would accurately predict that he'd join a gang and participate in gang violence himself but her yeah it's a different story now we're like we're looking for a more specific reason did the drugs do it what did it that's an interesting question it is i mean i don't what do you think because we expect more i think of mothers yes we do and and and a person like lindsey who doesn't seem to have had a lifetime of trauma leading up to this horrific act that's right so so there's one caveat i would say which is you know we we in this country talk a lot about evil and we seem very confused about what that means um but but there are people who enjoy hurting other people that exist that's evil there's no doubt about it and there are people who end up hurting other people and feel like they're either doing good or they're justified in doing it but there are people who develop states brain states where they're transiently violent that seems to be lindsey clancy's situation seems to be you're trying to say she's a bad person right she's somebody would kill her kids that's a bad person or she's somebody who is in a transient brain state or could she go into that state again that's really the question here i mean to me it's like from the law from the legal legal perspective we took a deep dive on self-defense cases when nick reiner got arrested um not self-defense insanity and um the standard is just so impossibly high um i just don't see it here like i mean you have guys who are basically frothing at the mouth able to put two sentences together who are still psychotic when the cops show up you know not like her i mean she was injured but as soon as she woke up from her you know her her trauma she was asking about herself not her kids um those people are not allowed the not guilty by reason of mental that's right uh finding so like i look at her she's a lot closer to sane than they are and i just legally the standard so high i don't see it and i don't really care because she's ruined her life her earthly time here is effectively over whether she's alive or dead you kill your three children i don't think you're ever going to be happy ever and if you are most of us are going to begrudge it to you um so i don't have a lot of care in my heart for what happens to lindsey clancy i don't care if she goes to the mental institution for the rest of her life if she goes to a prison for some limited amount of time that my lawyer friends are telling me, she might be out on the streets earlier if she she stays within the prison system than if she goes into a mental facility where they tend to hold you longer. So that's, I mean, for people who really want to see her punished, query what they should be rooting for. For me, I'm like, this woman's life is effectively over either way. I completely agree with you. But let me, I want to go back to the legal standard. It's really important to understand the medical standard, legal standard are completely different. And the legal standard is any evidence of consciousness of doing something wrong, essentially, and very state by state a little bit, but generally it's almost impossible. That's why lawyers don't even try not guilty by reason of insanity, because you can't, you can't prove it. It's impossible to say because everybody has to plan whatever it is they're doing, even if it's just to get a machete that then there it is. Ah, he knew he was doing something wrong because he went to a criminal to get the machete, whatever. All you have to do is the slightest evidence of doing you aware that you're doing something wrong or that other people would even understand it as something wrong. And that's no longer insanity, but boy, you're bringing up some really interesting stuff. And it also brings up the issue of that. There's a lot of heat around women sympathizing for her and people want to politicize that, but I don't think it's a political thing though. I don't think so. Let's talk about that. Cause I, I'm, I think a lot of people are deeply disturbed by the, the nut case, so-called mothers out there. Okay. There, there are a lot of women who deal with postpartum and it's a real thing. It's a real thing. It's a real thing. It's a real thing. And they get through it and they do what they need to. There's an infinitesimal number of women who actually would murder their child resulting from postpartum depression. But weirdly, there's a large number of women who will post a picture or video of themselves with their beautiful baby online with the soundtrack of Kevin Reddington, the defense lawyer, saying all the terrible things that, you know, Lindsay was feeling. And, uh, they're fine with it. They're, they're like, oh, I'm going to kill you. I'm going to kill you. Like showing themselves with their own child as though they might hurt their child just like Lindsay. Cause this is like somehow, you know, comment it's horrifying. I think the VAT, I mean, 99.99% of the women out there, the only pictures we've ever taken with our child, nevermind would consider posting would be one showing how much we adore and love and treasure and protect them. So it's like completely turning the image of motherhood on, it's head. Um, do we have an example of that? Deb, you play it. Standby. I'm completely overwhelmed trying to take care of the kids. I'm drowning every day. I feel guilty that I'm spending my family's money and not making any. I feel like I spend way too much. She wrote that, right? I'm terrified of Callen getting sick. He's a sick baby. A sick baby is miserable. He's sick now with a double ear infection. Clearly has a bellyache. It's miserable. I feel like the other kids are going to get him sick all winter long. She wrote that it's abusive to let the baby cry. And not respond. But I made the decision. I did it with Cal. There's way too much crying. It's incredibly stressful. Correct. He's okay. He will be okay. Oh, people showing their little children, their babies and the captions on the screen read same. Me too. Lindsay, your thoughts on it, doc. I mean, it's mind boggling that they would think that identifying with that is something that should be expressed publicly. But they're getting at two things, it seems to me. One is the fact that to have thoughts of harming a baby is not uncommon, believe it or not. But you're right. No one does it. But it's always something that women have. It's out of the shadows now with this case. And so women are like, oh, maybe I'm not such a horrible person because I had that thought. That's one thing. But on the other side, they seem to be saying, wanting acknowledgement for how stressful and difficult mothering is, which it is. It's a tough job. And only mothers can do it when there is a mom involved. The child wants mom a lot. And yeah, it's tough. It's probably also tough for your spouse to keep everything together and supported and moving things forward and making sure you're okay. It's hard to raise kids. And maybe we need to help people understand that. And also, there's another feature in here that I wanted to bring up. Which is this country does not do well with ordinary misery. Ordinary misery is good. It's how we develop and strengthen and develop grit. When Dr. Freud arrived in this country, I like telling the story, the reporters came to him and said, what do you hope to understand here in this country? He said, well, ultimately, I hope to understand the difference between serious mental illness and ordinary misery. Because it's hard to tell the difference sometimes. But in this country, there's no pain in America. No one should ever feel any pain in America. Here's 60 Vicodin, everybody. And now we're doing the same thing with other sources of discomfort. Ordinary misery is good for us. I have a question for you on this. I don't really believe in, I don't know, what is it? Like, I don't believe in sitting around thinking about how miserable you are. Right. I don't believe it's good for you. So like, when I hear you say it's hard, I mean, I recognize that it is hard for a lot of women. For a lot of other women, it's not hard. It's actually really joyful most of the time. And when the hard moments come, they have a very good perspective on them because the vast majority of it is so joyful and wonderful. Now, I don't know how helpful it is as a mental health approach to say to the, the women who have decided that new motherhood is incredibly difficult, right? They've put it nine out of 10 on the scale of difficulty, how helpful it is to validate that as opposed to helping them shift their mindset around it, which is sure there are tough moments, but overall so many blessings associated with this. And you should be focused on those like as a mental health tactic. Don't disagree. I don't disagree, except we have done so much coddling that we've created a population that avoided ordinary misery and does not have the resiliency and the adaptability and the emotional regulatory system in place. Plus our families have been a mess for like 30 years now. And the family, the family unit is where people develop their capacity for their emotional regulation. And if you don't have emotional regulation, you haven't been exposed to other stressors along the way, or you've been in safe spaces the whole time. Is it any wonder that's a challenge like mothering is overwhelming. Now, once we're there, you know, you, I, I would argue that we should use more services because yes, it's good. Yes. So what you're saying is good. And for some, that will be enough, but for others, they'll need to develop resiliency and emotional regulation. Yes, I guess you're right. It depends on whether you're a healthy person to start and whether you can control your emotions and your thinking and so on. I mean, it was sort of like, it was a little bit embodied and, and the now infamous Tom Cruise, Brooke Shields kerfuffle back in the day when she went on the today show and said she was suffering from postpartum and she was, she resorted to some sort of drug to help her with it. And Tom Cruise went on after the fact and just berated her because Scientologists don't believe in Scientology obviously has got its issues. We've covered them extensively on the show, but there is a strain of Scientology that is actually quite good in my, in my humble opinion. And it's the strain that says, a, you cut out people of your life who are toxic. You know, you, you completely, I'm not endorsing Scientology. You also have to cut out people who aren't Scientologists who are your family members, which is not good. But I'm just saying, I like the part that says you, if somebody's toxic to you, you completely otherize them in your own life. You don't talk about them. You don't think about them. You don't let other people mention them to you. You just completely cut what to you is a cancer out, which can be a very healthy mental health option. And they're not big on drugs, especially when it comes to, you know, mental health. And I gotta be honest, I'm not big on them either. Even these SSRIs, they seem to cause depression. Once you get on them, you seem to get used to them. Then you have to up your dose and then you have to try another one. It seems like one cycle after another. This is my, my lay person's opinion, doc. So again, these are, we're into some really interesting territory for which there's no one answer. Okay. But worth thinking about for everybody. The way I think about it for Scientology is like, they got a point, you know, stuff there, there's stuff they bring up. Okay. Yeah. You got a point there. Uh, and you know, they, they will often point at the psycho surgeries for which somebody won a Nobel prize. And I, I, when I first started working in a psychiatric hospital, the first thing that happened is I acquired all the medical catastrophes that were left over from all the psycho surgeries, which were catastrophic. It was ridiculous what we did. Anyway, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Psycho surgeries. That to me is like lobotomy. I thought that was like 1940s, 50s stuff. You're telling me like in your practice as a physician, you still saw hangovers from that kind of thing. I was working at an old psychiatric hospital, been there a hundred years. It was like a museum of psychiatry. And some of the chronic care patients had had singulotomies or lobotomies in the late fifties. And now they were in their seventies and I got up and I was like, Oh my God, I'm going to die. I'm going to die. I'm going to die. I'm going to die. I'm going to die. I'm going to die. I'm going to die. I'm going to die. And I got to see the disasters that this all created. And by the way, no, there was never any long-term studies on lobotomy. They don't know what happened. I blame the neurosurgeons. They stayed quiet during that whole catastrophe. And I could tell by the way they were writing about it, they were just mortified that psychiatrists were going to the bedside. It's like how the endocrinologists and pediatricians are staying silent now as we do this to children, as we cut off their body parts and sterilize them. Same thing, complicit. These things keep happening. The opiate addiction, the psychosurgeries, you know, it's climate. All these things have the same structure to them. You get an evangelical group of physicians who go around and get control of the regulatory organizations that then get into academia, that then mandate things, and doctors shut up. They're afraid. We are universally afraid. Do you know how the opioid thing happened? It really got going because they prosecuted physicians for inadequate treatment of pain, which is not malpractice. That's a criminal and civil liability. And doctors immediately stopped. They stopped prescribing opiates and sent everybody to pain management who took the position that pain is what the patient says it is. The fifth vital sign is pain, more important than your pulse. And off this thing went. COVID, same structure. Dr. Birx runs around to every state government and gets control. All of a sudden, masking shut down, school closures. These are things that were pushed. And the government officials are, what's the term that they use in communism? The useful. Idiots for all that. But once it gets going, it's very hard to stop. But let me just talk about pills. We have another problem in this country, back to Dr. Freud and ordinary misery, which is we expect pills to make life better. Pills are not designed to make life better. Doctors treat disease, possibly syndromes, and possibly I'm accepting sort of intolerable symptoms. But medications are only used when they are worth the risk. And there's always huge risk every time I open my prescription pad. And we have lost track of that entirely. Pills only make things better. It's got to always have. And trying other things first, like you're suggesting, I'm all for it. I'm all for it, as long as it's carefully managed. Yeah, and I don't, even though I don't, I wouldn't take them myself. And I certainly wouldn't want my children taking them if they ever needed them. I don't judge the people who do, because I do know some people who have taken them and said, that they were helped by them. So I don't have any judgment in my heart against them. Megan, I'm going to interrupt you. It's a case-by-case basis. I'm going to interrupt, not just case-by-case. But treatment, when properly prescribed, the outcomes are good. Treatment, when the prescribing circumstance is a little vague, you're more likely to have adverse outcome. Right, prescribed and then managed. Yes. Like these drugs, like if your doctor's going to put you on, I don't know, a statin, whatever, people go on those for years, they don't. They go to an annual appointment with their physician, it's all fine. These drugs seem to require active management by the psychiatrist who prescribes them, because they actually can cause more of the very thing that they were prescribed to fix. And the next thing you know, your patient's in a downward spiral. And she was getting like, this one woman who was treating her seemed like an idiot who hadn't been out of medical school more than two minutes. Who wasn't on the case. Then she was wound up in the care of physician's assistants who weren't even, you know, doctors. No offense to physician's assistants, but there should be a psychiatrist managing psychiatric medicine. And so, and she did see, I mean, I will say this for Lindsay Clancy. She and the husband did seem to try to reach out for medical help, like with these meds, over and over and over again. And she wasn't keeping it a secret that she was having these, these issues. She seemed to have been jumping up and down saying, for the love of God, somebody please help me. Yes. And back to my, what I was saying about primary care. You're not going to see doctors anymore in primary care. Some, look, some physician's assistants and nurse practitioners are outstanding. Some are not, but you're not going to see doctors anymore. That's what you're, that the insurance company has made sure to set it up that way. They have eviscerated primary care. I'm telling you. The other thing is primary care extenders and otherwise are the predominant prescribers. Yeah. Prescribers of these medicines and they are not trained to do it. I was interested in the brain and psychiatry. I arrived at the psychiatric hospital, was very enthusiastic about learning psychiatry. I thought I knew something about it. After a year, I thought, oh my God, I don't know anything. I need psychiatric consults because it gets complicated. After five years there, I went, I'm never prescribing without a psychiatric consult. And they almost are never asked for. And patients resist them. They resist psychiatric consults. I don't want to see that. I'm not crazy. I don't want to see a psychiatrist. Well, I love my therapist. I have said before, he's more like a life coach than he is a shrink. But I can, I can sum up his advice for all the listening audience. People are complicated. He's right. We are. We are. But, but there, but you, you've mentioned the, the growing sort of what's going, the, the, the, the mob that's growing around Lindsay Clancy. I am gravely concerned about mobs right now. I predicted it. I wanted to write a chapter about it in a book because I saw the narcissistic turn. I saw all the trauma in childhood, and I couldn't find a period of history where there was as much of that as pre-revolutionary France. So I just deduced that there's going to be guillotines, there's going to be moms, and we are in it. And it's dangerous now. It's really, I woke up this morning feeling scared. Thank you for saying that, because I've worried about this, Doc, because much in the same way when we see a suicide, you know, a very prominent public suicide, they tend to come in threes. You know, it's almost always the case, just from a news person's perspective, that when you see one, then you see follow-up ones. Remember, there was Anthony Bourdain, and there was Kate Spade, and then we just had two others publicly. But in any event, I worry about that dynamic affecting moms. Like, the idea has been floated and in a way blessed by these loons who are doing these videos and, like, making Lindsay Clancy into some sort of a heroine. There should be a fair amount of condemnation and scorn, even if you have some empathy for her and the mental health struggles she went through. I think we must have a fair amount of condemnation and scorn. Well, I must tell you what I'm seeing in response to it. It's not that. Which is men fleeing. I'm just seeing a male flight, I would call it, from relationships. What do you mean? You go on Instagram and X, and you'll see all men, like, I don't, these women should not, I don't want them to have my kids. I don't want these, I don't, no, no, no, no. They're right. Well, and it's, you know, that 90 Day Fiance show was prescient. They're going elsewhere to find women. They're going elsewhere to find women to be in relationships with. And it has accelerated. A lot of men. They should. They should? Well, they're doing it. They should. Why would you marry one of these lunatics? Any man, any man out there should marry somebody who is mentally well. I mean, that has to be the first criterion, you know, like, before you do anything. What's her family like? What's her background like? How does she handle adversity, stress? Sadness, like, all of those things need to be like, you can't, you can compromise on like, oh, he's not as clever as I'd like. You know, I'd like somebody with a sharper sense of humor. You cannot compromise on basic mental health. I agree with you. And there's a layer above that, which is there is a movement to vilify men. And a lot of women have bought fully into it. And then have strange expectations about marriage and childbearing, as we were talking about earlier. And there's, I was, again, maybe the algorithm is feeding me stuff, but I saw a ridiculous number of videos, women saying, oh, I'm just not feeling it anymore. I just, I love the guy, you know, yeah, they're in a beautiful home. You know, they're obviously is very supportive of them financially and otherwise. And I need to end this. I'm not kind of, kind of not feeling it. And then fast forward to a video of somebody, the same woman sobbing, like, he doesn't want to be my friend anymore. And I just, and men think to themselves, honey, you just ruined his life. You destroyed this guy. And of course he doesn't want to be your friend. And there's all this confusion going on in, in women and men and their relationships in this country. It's not so much elsewhere. So men are fleeing. It's, it's sad to see. I, I completely agree. This is one of the many reasons why Dr. Jordan Peterson's work has been so important and his, he'll fire right back at you if you play that card. What about you? How great are you? You think you're so great, sister? Like you have no flaws. What do you think? Let him to be so apathetic or to wind up cheating. He's not, you know, it's not about always blaming the woman, but it's also, but it's also not about always blaming the man. It's, it's, it is, it's more that zone where, you know, it's so, it's so, um, disposable humans are disposable relationships are disposable. That that's a horrible quality. We need to invest in relationships, whole notion of building a family. People don't even talk about that when they get married. They talk about it. They talk about weddings, you know, you're, you're going to be the head of a family that gets built and you're going to build it whole God willing through generations and that, that is the function of those two. people getting married. That's why we do that. Now, you don't have to have kids. That's fine. That's free country, all for it. But if you- As we're seeing, many people shouldn't. Right. And if you get to it, if you do do it, you got to think about leading this unit that is the foundation of society. And it's under attack. It's been under attack for quite a while. Yeah. Some of that messaging has been apparent in these crazy videos. Here's a little flavor of what we're hearing around the Clancy trial on this front, Sat 10. Every one of us that have roots that go back to the Salem witch trials, we are freeing our ancestral bloodline by coming together for Lindsay Clancy. That's why that shit is happening in Massachusetts. It's happening right near Salem. 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That's UrgentCareKit.com slash MK. Promo code MK. UrgentCareKit.com slash MK. Back with me now is Dr. Drew. He is the host of Ask Dr. Drew. You can find all of his content at DrDrew, D-R-E-W dot TV. So, Dr. Drew, there's another case that's, it's different from Lindsay Clancy, but it's got some shades that are similar that I wanted to ask you about. It's a horrific murder of an 18-year-old young woman. Her name was Caroline Hines. And she was allegedly murdered by her boyfriend, Royce Moser. They'd been dating for quite some time. They had been to at least two proms together. This just happened. She was 18. She was a rising freshman going off to Pennsylvania Western University. She was a standout soccer player, was set to make her collegiate debut for the university. Next week, she had one sister. She was dating Royce Moser. Who graduated from Cannon-McMillan High School. She went to a different high school about seven miles away. He, as far as I know, was not off to college, but whatever. They were together for quite some time. Two proms together, including one 12 weeks ago. Royce, who is the, he's the, he's the male. Royce wrote on her Instagram, best night, best two nights ever with you, with hearts. It went back and forth. It went back and forth with her hearts and his hearts. And then on Wednesday of last week, at 9.30 p.m., according to a police affidavit, here's what happened. Hines, again, Caroline is her first name, left her father's home in Peters Township around 9.30 p.m. She told her dad she might stop at a Target before returning to campus. She met up with Royce Moser, the boyfriend, outside of his father's home. They're spending the day with her family, just north of Pittsburgh, this is. During the discussion, Royce Moser reportedly became angry. He told her, and we don't know why, what caused the fight, but they were clearly having a fight or a breakup or something. Quote, he told her, wait, I have something for you. And went inside of the residence to get a knife. Oh, my God. He then came back outside and stabbed her to death. Oh, my God. It's just. It's so horrific. The Pennsylvania State Police report as follows. Royce Moser, the defendant, then retrieved a large kitchen knife, stabbed Hines in the chest. After she fell from the vehicle, Royce Moser placed her in the rear hatch area of the Jeep and drove to the residence of his mother, Rachel Moser. Once at the residence, Rachel Moser assisted by attempting to clean the Jeep Cherokee with cleaning sprays. She then provided Royce Moser with latex gloves and instructed him to follow her to the university. Mom and son drove 35 miles south to California, Pennsylvania. It's a town, California. They then left the Jeep Cherokee near the California's library and Hines, with Hines still inside. The mother, Rachel, then drove the son, Royce, back to her residence where he cleaned his clothes and showered. Meanwhile, Caroline's father had been checking her iPhone location. He later checked her location on his phone, noticed that she had stopped at her boyfriend's house where her devices put her for about 30 minutes. After he was unable to get a hold of her, the California Police Department, California, Pennsylvania Police Department, was contacted because an air tag in her vehicle showed she was in a parking lot in the borough. According to court documents, the police department was notified to check the area for a Jeep Cherokee at 1224 a.m. They found the Jeep. They noticed the blood spatter. They found the body. The mother of the son, Royce, Rachel, told investigators her son called her in early morning hours and said he needed her to follow. Follow him to the university to drop off a vehicle, later admitting he had stabbed Hines and needed a ride home. That appears to have been lies. She appears to have been brought in much earlier in the evening. She said he told her that he had demons and did not know whether Caroline was alive or dead when he moved her. He gave an interview himself, Royce did, told investigators that he had a, quote, demon take over during the confrontation before he returned. He retrieved the knife and stabbed her. He told police how his mother had helped him to clean the car, told him to take a bath, then shower after. She allegedly put his clothes in the washing machine for him. Royce told the police his mother took the knife that was used to stab the victim and put it in a garbage bag to be put in the trash outside of her house where, indeed, they found it. He's now been charged with homicide, among other charges. The mother is charged with hindering apprehension of a fugitive and tampering. With evidence, among other charges. This is, as far as we know, out of the blue. As far as we know, they're not referencing any criminal history or juvenile history for the defendant here. The prom, the hearts. It's horrible. In an instant, two lives at least completely ruined forever. I mean, I don't I guess we'll learn more about it as time goes along, but it's incomprehensible. And when things seem incomprehensible to me. I always worry about dark triad and psychopathy and psychopathy is a heritable disorder and mom seems to have manifested some of the same stuff, which is not acknowledging that something wrong was going on. Think about how different. I mean, people will go, oh, do anything to break my kids. No, you shouldn't. No, you shouldn't. When they when they do horrible things, you've got to let things come to bear. Look at the the murderer of Charlie Kirk. What did his dad do? Turned him in. We think I think that's what happened. Right. Yeah. And that's the right thing to do. That's the correct thing to do. You go, oh, you've done something horrible. Here we go. This is I would not protect you for this. And let me ask you a question on this, because to me, it seems as a parent. You know, the first horrible thing is not usually murder. There's there's probably a long line in this kid's history of the mother and possibly the father downplaying it, making excuses, getting him out of it, you know, sort of teaching him. Yes. The absence of accountability. That's my guess. That is exactly what tends to happen. And the parental denial, even when the children can be the child is severely impaired with all kinds of things, you know, psychiatric problems. The getting the parents to come to terms with or get the individual to care is is what causes the catastrophes. They don't get them there soon enough. And there is so much denial about it. Are they they minimize it? They marginalize it, that kind of stuff. People need to understand the difference between a parenting problem and a. Brain problem, they are very, very different phenomenon, and you need to get the brain issues to a professional quickly or horrible things can happen in this case. I agree with you, though. It's probably more of a antisocial quality to what he was been doing the mom, also antisocial, perhaps, and is sort of, you know, manipulating and minimizing and dissembling. And it's tragic. It's just unbelievable. I mean, look at those pictures. I mean, imagine your daughter was dating a kid like that. You wouldn't even be the say they're away. At college, you had met the kid, but you just see the pictures online. You wouldn't even have a reason to be suspicious, right? That's kind of the way psychopathy and dark triad stuff goes. What's dark triad, Machiavellianism, narcissism and psychopathy, the three together, and people are think in terms of having varying degrees of one or the other. But some people have all three in full blossom, and all this stuff is way more common these days, certainly than the cluster B side. We call that the narcissism side. than we've had maybe ever. And once again, acting out is the norm for those people, for those disorders. But how do you predict, I mean, if you could do this, you'd be a billionaire. Well, not a billionaire, I'd be able to save a bunch of lives, you know, because you can't predict this. Well, I'm just saying, like, this would be an extremely marketable thing to be able to do. Predict violence. You know, it's like teenage love may be gone awry. She's going off to college. He's not. But, like, then he took a knife and stabbed her in the heart. I mean, this is on the heels of 2025. Carmelo Anthony took a knife and stabbed Austin Metcalf in the heart, a complete stranger. I mean, at least in the latter situation, when it's young love, I don't know. I mean, let's face it, you know, men in love with women have been killing them for a long, long time. Yes. This is actually not that unusual, sadly, but like the Austin Metcalf, was such a shocker because it was like out of nowhere like just one teen taking a knife and stabbing another to death in the heart and yet with new information that has come out in court apparently it wasn't just oh just two two random random high-functioning teens who happened to run in the wrong you know sort of run into each other in court both of them had long but that all makes sense when you start reading their long history of violence and anti-social behavior both of them i mean just terrible stuff now we we went into all the details on this one was more violent one was more anti-social and sort of provocative and racist and stuff but but you sort of you can put those pieces together this one i i don't know we'll see i mean i you know that is the dad saying that he's heard you know that maybe this kid was had some issues i mean do you think that would all pile in now but then again the attorneys may have told him to shut up we'll wait till we get to court almost certainly they did um then so we'll wait till we get to court almost certainly they did almost certainly they did almost certainly they did almost certainly they did almost certainly they did almost certainly they did almost certainly i look at with this which was that hayden had long-standing addiction opiate addiction figure prominently people lose track all the time everybody loses track the fact that opiate addiction is progressive and ends in death unless it unless it is in daily treatment for remission it ends in death i cannot say that strongly enough that's where opiate addiction goes you have to work hard the prognosis for opiate addiction is significantly worse than the vast majority of cancers and yet we treat it like something that's going to make you sick and that's what's going to make some sort of weakness that people should be able to overcome it's a very dangerous can i just ask you can i can i ask you to elaborate on that because it's not just i think you're referring to like death by overdose but it's not just death by overdose it's like it blows up your life so mightily and affects your overall health so terribly death it doesn't have to be from an od no because you typically end up in the street you end up on the street because you're you start losing your work you lose your family you lose everybody everything and you go to the street and you start shooting drugs because it's more effective and it's cheaper and yes then you get very very sick and you don't care see the disease of addiction is a disease of motivation the usual motivational priorities get usurped by one overwhelming priority that takes over everything else which is get drugs and that is a now a chronic state now it reduces the longer you've been sober but it's always there waiting for you it's always there as a priority it's always affecting your thinking it's always affecting your judgment which is why you have to every day reflect with the sober person am i thinking this right is this okay you know are you oh that's my disease okay okay thank you let me let me not pay so much attention to that and do my sobriety work and hayden in her case she had been treated a few times she was first victimized by the thing i see all the time with celebrities which is they they do short-term treatment they return to work you can't do that returning to work prematurely is the number one reason that celebrities relapse they make money for people they want them back they enjoy their work they're gratified by the work they make money from it they want to go back and it's always oh we'll get a sober coach we'll do this there are no shortcuts well she found that out then she went to eight months of treatment in an excellent facility and had some sustained sobriety and then went back out and you have to ask yourself why do why do addicts go back out well if they're in the program and doing well there's a numero uno reason well the numero is the medical system takes them out that that does it but number two is relationship out takes them back out they they a doctor gives them some painkillers and now they're on once they're once they're exposed it's it's they're thinking get screwed up again they start running they start going into their disease but the other thing is relationships relationships take people out i'm using that terminology again all all the time uh the stress of relationship they get involved with other addicts their their priority of their recovery diminish and that's kind of what i hear the mom saying now i don't want to blame anybody i don't know what their relationship was like but just playing the odds that is the one of the number one reasons that people in good or longer term sobriety get taken down i mean what we know from hayden's own memoir is that the relationship with her mother was not good um she claims that she had asked her mother to just be a mother and not be her manager anymore and the mother said you owe me the mother denied that that may or may not have the mother's statement again in addiction who knows you know it's dissembling obfuscating distorting that's all part of the game but there is another yes but just take one look at this mother and you're gonna have questions about her too honestly like this this is not somebody whose word i would put any any stock in whatsoever here she is um you know i'm not a big fan of her stuff but i'm not a big fan of her stuff but i'm not a big fan of her stuff let me just let me see uh yeah no i don't want to play 18 i want to play 19 because here she's saying something actually which i could i could agree with her is it is it uh yeah in 19 she's talking about the abusive boyfriend and i think she's actually making good points but you can see this woman is something it's been a long time she's been thriving in my opinion go ahead 19. one year ago her mom says she went to stay with hayden to help her she says hayden wanted out of her relationship with hayden to get out of the relationship with hayden that's what she said she said she wanted him out of her relationship with brian she knew that brian was toxic she knew she had to get him out of her life but things took a turn after about six weeks she noticed hayden pulling away so she went back to her home in florida what made you leave what happened between the two of you when i got the phone call from her saying i'm i'm going to be with the person i love and i said i just lost it i lost it i could not believe that she had gone that far back that he had been successful in reeling her back in with all of the things he had done to her vogel says hayden was seeing hickerson again she gave hayden an ultimatum she says on the advice of her therapist she told hayden she couldn't talk to her if brian was part of her life and that was the beginning of their estrangement i needed it i needed to have that pocket of time of course i thought it was going to be a pocket of time i did not by any stretch of the imagination think that this was going to happen okay so putting her other issues aside again i actually believe that piece of her testimonial i believe she was worried about her daughter's presence with this known abuser of hayden um and that and i believe she probably was told maybe disassociate as a way of cajoling hayden into not going back with this with her abuser you you one of the this is a very challenging and sometimes controversial sort of thing i'm going to say which is that you you have to leave with love sometimes when people are engaged in destructive behaviors whether it's addiction or addiction to relationships whatever these are all kind of addictive behaviors and what she did i'm sure the therapist would say to do that unfortunately it's dangerous it's dangerous and so as you drive her into the arms not even that so much is that maybe the only lifeline she had was her mom and that she was the one watching and could could you you you worry about withdrawing from it's it's technically the right thing to do because you love people to death that's that's sort of the the codependency saying uh but you have to you have to when you leave it has to be managed very carefully and only when the the risk is worth it when there's no other alternative and um i feel terrible for the whole situation it was just awful well there's there's there's some more facts emerging about the the boyfriend and so on the new york times did an in-depth report sunday reporting that uh first of all hayden penitier had private security to keep brian hickerson away from her during the book tour which was in may may is we're not talking about ancient history so it was so she was so concerned about him and his behavior just a few months ago that she was telling the bookstores about the book do not let in a man named brian hickerson um obviously reports the times and we all know now that they eventually resumed their tumultuous on and off relationship but during that book tour she had private security who was under strict instructions not to let him anywhere near her she would wall herself off from family when she was with hickerson reports the times writing mr hickerson was a persistent source of conflict in the final year of a life weighed down by grief a lot of people are talking about him as being the father of a lot of people are talking about him as being the father of a lot of people are talking about him as being the father of a lot of people are talking about him as being the father of a lot of people are talking about him as being the father of a lot of people are talking about him as being the father of a lot of people are talking about him as being the father of a lot of people are talking about him as being the father of a lot of people are talking about him as being the father of a lot of people are talking about him as being the father of opiate addiction in an industry like Hollywood. And then you've got the abusive boyfriend and, you know, that's how we got to where we got. Marono medical system, take you out. And I'm not saying she should not have received pain medication. I'm saying it should have been administered at the hands of somebody who understands pain. and addiction and there's a way to do that and i'm not saying she shouldn't get the opiates she should get even if she needed primary mu short-acting opiates again carefully manage and understanding that her addiction would be triggered and have to be managed as a result so there it is you know we have two number one and number two things that really harm people in addiction it's you know it also brings up the topic of behavioral addictions too you know love addiction sex addiction porn addiction gambling addiction these things these days because of the crack pipe that we hold in our hands all the time are really taking people down holding up his phone wildly i'm holding my phone up yeah um the uh the the listing of what she was going through right grief because her younger brother had died a couple years ago he also had a substance abuse problem though is said to have died of congenital heart defects at age 28 which i'm sure were not helped by his substance abuse problem um addiction we covered with her physical pain we covered and agoraphobia can you speak to this because in my experience it is not unusual to find somebody with an addiction problem who's got agoraphobia or is a hoarder or has some other like issue on the mental health scale that i don't know if it's caused by addiction if the mental health stuff causes the addiction and the other stuff can you speak to that the agoraphobia jumped out well it it much like the pain oftentimes the drugs that they're doing make all their psychiatric symptoms pain oh pain gets worse on opiates that's just the way it is it causes it causes an intensification of pain then you get headaches because you're in withdrawal then you get low back pain because you're in withdrawal and and you just escalate the pain and then you end up on benzodiazepines at night for sleep because you're taking all these opiates and trying to get off those that's where the agoraphobia and anxiety and panic kicked in and maybe she hadn't had enough time off those drugs to really let that subside then what we more commonly see or most commonly see i would say is the concomitant childhood trauma right childhood trauma is the rocket fuel for addiction and none of this stuff is causational the cause is that it's genetic and you either have the gene or you don't but there are these influences and there are some of these things that you can do to help you get through these influences that activate the gene and childhood trauma would have to be number one and in her case you know it brings up the whole topic of childhood stars and there's the interesting things people talk about with that you know and danny bonaduce was the first to sort of educate me that more often than not something's up with the parents and if your parents were good you end up with ron howard if they weren't good you end up with danny bonaduce or however he would say it and but there's another issue i have found a on top of that which is that they they get into the the children first of all they're they're in an adult world with adults all the time taking on adult responsibility that's traumatic for a child number one not massively traumatic but traumatic number two they may have fractured families that they have come from and they get into these productions where it's a family unit it forms a family sometimes for multiple seasons and what no one prepares the child for is that let's say after six seasons where this is your dad and you feel really good about him and you're feeling he's not i understand he's not my dad but i feel very close to him and this family feels very safe for me end of end of the production everybody scatters to the wind and they never see each other again that is profoundly abandoning for these children and a lot of them bring that up specifically gosh that makes perfect sense you're asking so much of these children to to manage these adult settings and in case after case we're seeing potential child sexual abuse oh yeah well you know we just on this morning on our morning podcast am update we've reported on this young actress who was on a disney in a disney uh i think made for tv movie and uh she's now come out under this california law that allows you to bring these claims up to age 40 saying she was sexually assaulted by an adult male person on the set she doesn't say exactly who it was because it appears she and he may have entered into a smaller settlement back in 2015 but now she's going after disney but i'm sure that's a lifetime that's a lifetime sentence she's been given and you say okay if you have good parents you wind up ron howard just a little digression here does northwest have good parents kanye and or just yay now and kim kardashian because she is on the cover of this british quarterly magazine right now with false teeth like a grill situation blue hair all these facial piercings look at this well drew she is almost exactly the same age as my thatcher who was born in july of 13. she was born in june of 13. so i know this age very very well he is a sweet little boy this girl i mean would you look at this and she's launching an album and she's going to be performing concerts and they are rushing to try to make her a star without i it doesn't appear any reflection especially by the kardashians on the significant downside of putting your child on camera for her childhood it makes you worry and she has bipolar in her genetic heritage right and right and she has parents that have not been available let's say i i don't know it doesn't look like they're around all the time uh and that can set you up for trouble and then we're going to go put her out in the public and you know it's it's another issue that i've been i really was feeling this morning it the being public back when when i started doing radio and television it was to help and there was joy and people appreciated the help and they participated there was a communal feeling now if you're public it feels it feels really really dangerous now and so putting a child into it it's just oh yeah i don't know what i don't know if we're going to get through this time or it's going to get worse it's back to the guillotines we talked about last hour they are out and hey everybody that puts somebody on the guillotine realize history is a clear teacher on this everybody ends up on the guillotines eventually if you keep bringing them out yes that's always the case in history she released her debut album at 12. she's already performed on stage with kanye these two have manipulated it such that she has gotten other on-stage gigs the name of this magazine is dazed um and most of the comments thankfully are not encouraging people recognize this is wrong uh many people saying i'm out i'm unsubscribing this is very odd this is a baby wrote someone i've just unfollowed her she's on the guillotine this is very odd this is very odd this is a baby wrote someone i've just unfollowed her she's on the guillotine this is very odd this is a baby wrote someone i've just unfollowed her she's on after years what even is this magazine after years what even is this magazine after years what even is this magazine anymore i'm uncomfortable seeing this anymore i'm uncomfortable seeing this anymore i'm uncomfortable seeing this she writes about how she writes about how she writes about how she doesn't she doesn't she doesn't she she doesn't wanna she doesn't she she doesn't wanna she doesn't she she doesn't wanna um um um she said everyone's in love with boys she said everyone's in love with boys she said everyone's in love with boys vaping and doing all kinds of bad stuff vaping and doing all kinds of bad stuff vaping and doing all kinds of bad stuff all i want is blue hair and piercings all i want is blue hair and piercings all i want is blue hair and piercings uh but then she talks about how i really uh but then she talks about how i really uh but then she talks about how i really want to get my bridge pierced want to get my bridge pierced want to get my bridge pierced my bridge but i'm not allowed yet the my bridge but i'm not allowed yet the my bridge but i'm not allowed yet the bridge she means right here there's a bridge she means right here there's a bridge she means right here there's a picture of it picture of it picture of it my producers gave me like right here my producers gave me like right here my producers gave me like right here between the eyes the part that your between the eyes the part that your between the eyes the part that your nose that your eyeglasses would rest on my nose that your eyeglasses would rest on my eyeglasses would rest on my god of course thank god at least kim god of course thank god at least kim god of course thank god at least kim kardashian knows this is not a good idea kardashian knows this is not a good idea kardashian knows this is not a good idea um she told people that or people um she told people that or people um she told people that or people reported that she recently debuted a reported that she recently debuted a reported that she recently debuted a different type of art piercings on her different type of art piercings on her different type of art piercings on her thighs thighs thighs she i mean this is a my son is riding she i mean this is a my son is riding she i mean this is a my son is riding his bike his bike his bike playing tennis and playing something playing tennis and playing something playing tennis and playing something called bucket golf with his buddies in called bucket golf with his buddies in called bucket golf with his buddies in the backyard the backyard the backyard this is bizarre this is a strange choice this is bizarre this is a strange choice this is bizarre this is a strange choice and let me just show you one other thing and let me just show you one other thing and let me just show you one other thing this is her music video okay this is her music video okay this is her music video okay i'm going to tell you what the words are i'm going to tell you what the words are i'm going to tell you what the words are here uh here uh here uh ashite is the name i ain't nobody fina ashite is the name i ain't nobody fina ashite is the name i ain't nobody fina save me save me save me fina i don't know how to read this fina fina i don't know how to read this fina fina i don't know how to read this fina ain't nobody finna save me i and it's ain't nobody finna save me i and it's ain't nobody finna save me i and it's driving me crazy why can't i escape driving me crazy why can't i escape driving me crazy why can't i escape because they chase me they chase me just because they chase me they chase me just because they chase me they chase me just love me everyone betrays me yeah and i'm love me everyone betrays me yeah and i'm love me everyone betrays me yeah and i'm seeing blood daily what and it's driving seeing blood daily what and it's driving seeing blood daily what and it's driving me crazy yeah can't escape because they me crazy yeah can't escape because they chase me just love me everyone everyone betrays me watch oh boy want to take that one dr drew i mean if that's how she's feeling this isn't going to go well and one of the things that people are going to say is that she's not going to be able to do when they're feeling a lot of aggression is they'll turn it on themselves cut pierce stuff like that i i want to i'm trying to avoid megan becoming the old guy on the porch oh these kids today i don't know i'm trying not to just take it by appearances and and try to understand what's up here the only exposure i've had to her was a video she posted where she was yelling at her mom because her mom knocked her monthly allowance down thousands of dollars uh which already was odd did you see that one that that was disturbing really calling her mom names horrible names i didn't see that i saw there was some report that kanye was going to knock down the 10 grand he gives her a month or i don't know it was unconfirmed but But he was allegedly going to do that because he didn't like the direction she was going in, unconfirmed again. But look, those two are much more interested in being on camera and working on their careers, such as they are, than I think in actual parenting. I'm sure she'd love for her daughter to be a star. In Kim Kardashian's defense, she came by it honestly. That's what her mom taught her when she got that. That whole sex tape was reportedly orchestrated by the mother. She wanted her daughter's sex act on the Internet, according to the man who's performing in it. They deny that. But, you know, speaking of generational trauma, that's actual generational trauma. Thankfully, she was not a child. But, you know, when we were doing Loveline back in the day, every third or every fifth call was about childhood sexual abuse. It was so common back in the day. And realize. We went through a pandemic of this stuff is not normal. It does not happen throughout history. We were not just talking about it more. It was about a 20 year period where it was it was in the heels of the sexual revolution, which anything goes that this all got unleashed and then it went underground. And the real problem is that the sad part trying to manage philosophically is a certain percentage of these kids then became perpetrators and they became adults. And when perpetrators like that perpetrate, it's not it's not a deal. It's not a digital thing. It's not one time. It's exponential to multiple orders of magnitude. And so that's why this thing spread so much. And we had people forget in the late 90s, early 2000. We had a pandemic of child on child sexual abuse because of some of this stuff. You know, we are constantly making fun of it's called The Cut. It's an offshoot of New York magazine. And they do more cultural things. And it's a very far left publication. But sometimes amusing. And actually, right now, they have a very interesting piece in there about a little girl who back in 2015 was only four. She was going to kindergarten in West Virginia. And the mandatory reporters there, a.k.a. Her teachers saw that this girl was being physically abused. They could tell. And as it turns out, they suspected sexual abuse as well. And indeed, it was the case. She was abused. And unfortunately, when these mandatory reporters began reporting to the Division of Child and Family Services, you've got to look into this girl's case. The parents kept denying it and then ultimately pulled her from the school system and were allowed to just say, oh, we're homeschooling her. We're going to homeschool her. Notwithstanding the fact that there were abuse investigations underway inside the home that were both physical, like a broken femur, and sexual. So, you know, she's a very explicit and awful, just as awful as you can imagine. And you know what? She died. She died as a child because state after state apparently allows this. It's not just West Virginia. It's not a rip on homeschooling. Homeschooling can be absolutely wonderful and in many cases far superior to brick-and-mortar schools. However, when there's an active, you know, a reporting situation where the mandatory reporters in the school have said the parents are hurting this child, you should not be allowed to homeschool until there's been a favorable response. You should not be allowed to homeschool until there's been a favorable response. So, you know, we're going to have to find a solution for you. Right. So many dumb laws, so many dumb regulations, rate these outcomes and not to mention the deficiencies in social services and their ability to do anything, but you look no further than homelessness. By the way, I went to a, I have a documentary out on homelessness called Beyond Homelessness, and it's, San Francisco is down 25% because guess what they're doing? They're treating the drug addicts on the street and they're putting them in places where they're accountable, have to find work, have to stay there for a long period of time. And they're treating the drug addicts on the street and they're putting them in places where they're accountable, have to find work, have to do this, do 12 step work. And guess what? Everyone's getting well and everyone is thriving. Oh, you mean the reversal of the open air drug markets and the providing of the needles that they were doing? If those, by the way, needle exchange was supposed to be a needle exchange, not needle handout, number one. And number two, if I were managing, let's say those open air regions where these sick people are located, which is essentially a psychiatric hospital without walls, if I was managing that. Six people were dying a day like they are on the streets of Los Angeles. I would not only be guilty of malpractice, I would go to prison. But unfortunately, doctors and nurses are not allowed to help these people. They only interface with social workers who are not trained to do this. It's like asking them to ask a physical therapist to do orthopedic surgery. They're wonderfully trained. They're not trained for people that are this ill psychiatrically. And back to the regulations and the stupid laws. If we don't reestablish something called. Gravely disabled, which was the reason you could help people throughout the throughout the last 250 years of this country. If somebody is so disabled that they lie down on the sidewalk and stay there, we need to help you. There's something wrong. You might already own a firearm, but what if you could start with less lethal methods to avoid the financial and mental repercussions of pulling the trigger? This is where Burna comes in. That's B-Y-R-N-A. Burna's less lethal launchers are equipped with tear gas and also kinetic ammunition. 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Rather than just tell you about Relief Factor, we often bring you what they're real customers. One customer, Jim, said he ran out of Relief Factor twice. And both times, his aches, stiffness, and pain came back. Once he restarted it, he says he felt much better again. As Jim puts it, quote, You know something's working when you run out of it. They make it easy to find out if you will be the next person telling Relief Factor about how much it helps you tackle your daily aches and pain. Three weeks for just $17.76. Simply go to ReliefFactor.com or call 1-800-4-RELIEF. You will connect. With their friendly local team. And they will do everything they can to help. And maybe you will be sharing your Relief Factor story sometime soon as well. Hey everyone, it's me, Megyn Kelly. I've got some exciting news. I now have my very own channel on SiriusXM. It's called the Megyn Kelly Channel. And it is where you will hear the truth, unfiltered, with no agenda, and no apologies. Along with the Megyn Kelly Show, you're going to hear from people like Mark Halperin, Link Loren, Maureen Callahan, Emily Jaschinski, Jesse Kelly, Real Clear Politics, and many more. It's bold, no BS news. Only on the Megyn Kelly Channel, SiriusXM 111, and on the SiriusXM app. I did want to get back. My offshoot into the Northwest situation was from the Hayden situation. And I did want to talk a bit about the abusive boyfriend. Because you tell me, you know, what specifically. Was it the drugs? Would you guess that made her go back to this guy that she was getting mandated bodily protection from in May? Because here's what now, a couple things that are breaking about him. Brian Hickerson. He had, according to Lindsay, to Hayden's mom, he had pawned Hayden's belongings. She said that she was shocked to find that Brian Hickerson, who filed for bankruptcy in 2022, had pawned some of Hayden's belongings. Including a vintage guitar. The mother also claimed that Hayden Panettiere was shocked when she found out that her on-again, off-again boyfriend had some of her possessions in his storage unit. So, obviously, the implication is that he had stolen them from her. And then on top of that, it was very interesting. This is page six, doing the reporting there. Hold on a second. Where is it? Because the report was also that. Oh, maybe this is the New York Times. Yeah, it was the New York Times in that lengthy piece on Sunday. Reported that he, at some point, had been acting as Hayden's paid executive assistant. Of course. Further entangling the two. His LinkedIn profile describes him as an executive assistant for a high-profile, confidential client. And so he appears to have gone on her payroll, all of this, notwithstanding the fact that he beat her repeatedly. Oh, but he took domestic violence classes. So, you know, I guess problem allegedly solved. We're all done here. We're done. One more thing. Some classes took care of it. Some reassignment. You know, it's like, it all, to me, sounds like, you know, the communist, you know, sort of education camps. Yeah, great. Well done. No, it's like at Fox News. They made everybody take sexual harassment training. People went there for ideas. These classes are a joke. How do these courts? think that that's going to change anything. I don't know. What would you mandate to a domestic abuser if you asked? actually wanted him to break a pattern i remember i was talking to a guy who once pushed a woman through a door and he he was a good kid and he thought my god something is wrong i i need help i'm i'm going in a direction there's something wrong and uh i was talking to him and uh he said you know he's had successful treatment he had all kinds of trauma stuff and therapy and relational trauma you know stuff uh multiple multiple kinds of therapeutics and uh i said well how are you working this because you know five years and i feel like i'm a little better now and i thought oh my god that's that's a kid that threw somebody through a door imagine these people that are so abusive and repetitive push people through this cycle of abuse and i'm gonna have to explain the cycle of abuses so people know what it is there are my my treatment is you separate these people and you get mom into an environment or get the woman into an environment where she can start to look at why she's addicted and why she can't get out of this cult of two i call it a cult of two the way it works is i oh no no i love you so much i love you so much then the jealousy and then the irritability and then the woman's walking on eggshells then he's triggered he becomes violent then at the end of the violence it's because i love you so much and they have this idealized reuniting and people fall for that both men and women it's because i love you so much that i'm so emotional i can't control myself because my love for you is so amazing this is bs everybody this is nonsense this is the cycle of abuse but this is how people get into this cult of two this cycle where they have trouble pulling themselves out now if they were also using buddies which i don't know maybe they're both doing drugs together that adds to the addictive certainly looks that way that adds the addictive sticky quality to the relationship and as i said if he wasn't using with her why was he asleep at 150 in the afternoon two sundays ago when they found her when the brother came over and found them both passed out and she was like oh my god i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so right he was allegedly next to her in the pullout sofa bed and she was dead i mean i think if you're asleep at two in the afternoon next to a dead person you probably have your own issues and they had narcan on them in the apartment which was a an airbnb so it wasn't even like i think the place that he normally lives so he's clearly traveling with it and he reportedly the brian the the boyfriend tried to administer it uh to her unsuccessfully here's here listen to him talking about domestic violence and how he just needed some education my biggest thing about uh domestic violence is i don't think it is taught early enough in life never in my life did i ever get taught what domestic violence was right maybe if i did at an early age maybe i wouldn't have done what i did i don't know well it's one of those things you think about so all right yeah you've got the training to me it's you don't get it's not about getting taught about dv it's about anger management you know emotional regulation communication what what say you years years of work and not just oh that's what that is okay we're done here it's like it's like saying it's literally like saying uh you know somebody has a schizophrenia or bipolar disorder and it's like do you come to we're teaching you what this thing is you have oh okay we'll see you later no you then you treat it the education is to get people to the point where they can acknowledge that they need treatment that this is not okay that it's pathological it's dangerous and he it's something is up there i don't know what's going on with him but it would require a lot and i bet i just wonder if alcohol is involved because in and by the way it he also had that flavor of oh i was exposed to domestic violence my whole life i just thought it was okay i i which does happen to people i mean they but that is not but i mean thinking that he didn't know his domestic violence when he was punching her in the face well i'm pretty sure he knew i i would agree with you but if you saw it in childhood again giving it a name doesn't mean you're not going to repeat that exactly what you were exposed to in childhood the reports of you know him attacking her continue to come out we continue to learn more this is um a neighbor uh this is not 26 and it's uh it was on inside edition last week listen to this this is a neighbor of hayden's hayden penitier's neighbor is making shocking allegations about the troubled star's relationship with her boyfriend she was always such a bright light when she was by herself when she was with brian she was so subdued and and seemed almost like a a different person mia terraza said she was a neighbor of hayden's neighbor and she was a neighbor of hayden's neighbor says she called 9-1-1 a half a dozen times to report disturbances in hayden's apartment in west hollywood was there ever any instances where you thought there could be domestic violence going on oh absolutely i saw her leaving on a gurney um brian was right next to her and i asked her if she was okay and it looked to me that she you know had suffered some type of trauma that uh you know looked to be battering and it was clear she was terrified brian hickerson was jailed for 45 days in 2021 for punching hayden with his closed fist in the face and was banned from the apartment complex where hayden lived this image of hickerson was posted on the property warning to all residents if he is seen anywhere on this property please call 9-1-1 immediately so i'm needing it with what she was doing at the book signings i'm needing a bath i i feel so bad for all these topics we're getting into this is this is like really tough material but um you know in addition to the stickiness of the cycle of abuse and the cult of two that people get into the women particularly their their personal resources and their sense of themselves get severely eroded in relationships like this they really don't have the the capacity to pull themselves out of it they just keep going sinking deeper and deeper and then again if you're using substances on top of that that's how they try to manage it and of course that only makes things worse so it sounds like drew you would have said like if hayden had come to you and said how about i write a memoir and then i go on a book tour you know i'm i'm clean and sober now i go on a book tour and i'm going to go on all these podcasts and all these tv shows to promote it and talk about all my trauma you might have said to her too soon i might have said too soon if it had been less than two years of sobriety i would have definitely said too soon uh and then i would have said what does your therapist say what is your psychiatrist say what does your sponsor say are we all in agreement that this is a good idea if anyone dissents you're going to wait it out until everyone decides this is okay for you but there i because there was a report that that while she was out promoting her book she was still drinking and still doing drugs that she tried to order a boatload of alcohol and whip it to the hotel room and the security caught it and notwithstanding the fact you know she was out there saying i'm sober back in july of 2022 she was saying i'm clean and sober here she is in 2022 it's not 25 how are you today i'm good it's an everyday battle it really is um i'm grateful to say that i'm sober today sober and connecting on a whole new level with her seven year old daughter kaya i can only imagine one of the things you're most grateful for is your beautiful little girl that she is oh she's my my favorite little person but she would wind up agreeing to give the father custody and so on the downward spiral continued to the point where now drew she reunites with this abuser he's next to her in this bed when she dies obviously drugs were involved i mean we'll wait for the toxicology but it seems clear and now rob shooter is reporting that sources are telling him law enforcement has seized the cameras around him and he's not going to be able to get out of the apartment and he's not going to be able to get out of the apartment and he's not going to get out of the apartment and he's not going to get out of the apartment and he's not going to get out of the greenville south carolina apartment where she was found dead and where that boyfriend was living so we we always say that or she may have been sober there and i think that's after her long long period of treatment which was excellent um but back to work too too soon that's exactly what happens to everybody you know you don't only didn't do that robert downey jr didn't do that his last effort at sobriety he just he contemplated that he'd never work again and did his work for years and then kind of tiptoed back under the supervision of his sober team and there you go that's how you do it you don't run out and do a book tour but the other thing we always say about these relationships and particularly i'm assuming he's drinking or whatever if you're if you're or maybe he was sober at the time too maybe but two two people early in sobriety often get together and what we say is you think you're reaching for a life preserver but that's actually you're grabbing an anvil and you're gonna it's gonna take you down and it always does you know speaking of sobriety brad pitt's in the news virtually every day because he has six children and so far by my count four out of the six the latest being his 18 year old daughter um vivian have petitioned to have his name removed from their last name so they want to go by just joe lee not joe lee pitt anymore and it's not just semantic it's clear they want nothing to do with there was an infamous domestic abuse incident involving Pitt and Jolie on an airplane. All the children were reportedly present. She tried to get the FBI involved. She filed the police report. They got divorced right after. He's said to have hit her or hurt her physically, as well as verbally abusing his children and Angelina on board that plane. I believe he's denied the specific charges there, but he did declare that he was an alcoholic shortly thereafter. They got a divorce. And now he sits down for a long interview. I think it was with Esquire two weeks ago and says he's drinking again. He's drinking again, but he can handle it. It's going to be like more than one, but it's not going to be so many that he gets drunk. You tell me whether that's a thing. Watch what happens, everybody. Just watch. The clock is ticking on the progression. It's a progressive illness. It progresses. And if you've been progressed already, you take a period of time off and you try to start again. You essentially, very quickly get back where you left off. And for some people, it's instant. But for other people, it takes a few years, but they'll get there. I know cannabis was a big thing for him. So that'll get involved as well. As far as him being estranged from his kids, he's talked about the effect the addiction has had on his family life. And then he leaves. And I'm going to guess that Angelina Jolie has abandonment stuff. She doesn't feel good about somebody leaving. And who knows what her role is in the kids? Not wanting him involved in their life at all. We don't know. Yes, I'm sure there has been manipulation on her part, you know, in not forget the abuse. There's no excuse for that, but not owning her part in the breakdown of the marriage, which does take two to keep healthy and to ruin. Yeah. If you were doing it a healthy way, you'd say, listen, this is your father. Let's figure out how to maintain a relationship. Maybe you want to limit the whatever. But you to say that person needs to be out of your life forever. That's rough for kids. That's very difficult. Yeah. Right. Judge Judy, she always used to say, you're supposed to love your kids more than you hate your ex. And these two definitely are not living that. So it's sad. Yet another child has petitioned successfully to have Pitt removed from her name. That's four out of the six. And we'll see what happens with the other two. Dr. Drew, it's wonderful to see you. Gosh, we had a lot that we needed to go over with you. Thank you for coming and shedding some expertise and light on I always love talking to you. You've really expanded my understanding of some of these things. And although I feel horrible, and I still feel like it's a dangerous world out there. Thank you for having this conversation with me. Could be worse. Could be talking politics. Yeah, it'd be worse. Okay. See you soon. You too. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear. Today's episode was brought to you by SuperSure.