What The Hell Is A Situationship? And Am I In One?

I don't think anyone's like, "Okay, now time to get into my situation." You're almost mourning what could have been, and it's all those like, "What ifs and why didn't it get to a relationship?" But this is the thing. This is where the gaslighting comes in. She said, "It's like when you get a new toy and you're just bored of the old ones." I think I am answering for the crimes of the men around me or something. There's something coming on. There is a special place in hell. Maybe not hell. Maybe jail. Maybe jail. I reckon the number is like almost 100%. 100%. 100%. 100%. 100%. Hi, I'm Dee Salman, and unfortunately, Melbourne's winter has got me good. And I've gone down with the cold. If you're wondering why my voice is all cooked, and if you're watching as well and Spotify or a new tube, and you're wondering why I have a lot of toilet paper next to me, I've got to find a new tissues. Yeah, things are dying here at the ABC at the moment. But Pip is still a way. I actually have been damning her. She's living her best life. She sent me a photo of Mr. Darcy. She's somewhere in Scotland and said, "Baby, you would not believe." She saw a first edition of Pride and Prejudice, so very, very jealous. But yeah, she's going to be away for the next couple of weeks, which is really exciting for you to meet someone new joining on the hook up as a co-host. And today, I'd love to introduce you to Ben. Thank you so much for having me, Dee. My name is Benella Birchie. I am one-third of the grill podcast on the ABC. Dee was kind enough to guest on our show, so I decided it'd be nice for me to do the same. Explain how the grill works for anyone who doesn't know. Okay, so the way that the grill works is that every week, me and my two other co-hosts, we bring in something that has been irritating us either recently or just like in general. We each have our time and the sun to explain it, to discuss it, and then at the end, we sort of let it go. Yeah. So it's sort of based on us having bug bears or just like champagne problems. Yeah, like beef. Like beef with something. Yeah, beef with beef. And so your beef when I jumped on your pod was with ghosting. Yeah. And how people don't do it properly. So go listen to that episode. But I knew straight away as soon as I left that podcast, I was like, "You'd be great on the hook up." Thank you. You'd be so good on the hook up. A lot of the stuff you were saying about ghosting, which is why I thought you were the perfect co-host of Join us today to talk about situationships. Yeah. So that's what we're going to get into in this app. And if you are new, we do talk about love, sex dating, relationships. And we have an Instagram, @jethahawkup. And this is where you send us your dilemmas, the stuff you're going through. And we pick it apart for about 40 minutes from every single possible angle that we could possibly think of. And that's what we're going to do today. We got this DM from Susie, who said, "I've been seeing someone and it's been going really well. We've been hanging out non-stop. It feels like we're basically together." Well, at least that's what I thought until they slept with someone else. They said they've done nothing wrong because we've had chats about how we were casual, but everything we've been doing has not been casual at all. We've even discussed our feelings for each other at length. So I thought that it was just a given that we were exclusive. Who's in the wrong here? Very, very big question. And I think very relatable, which I'm excited to unpack. So, yeah, in this episode we're going to find out what exactly is a situation ship, because it sounds like poor Susie's in one. How many people have been in them, like how common are they? We're going to hear your stories, a lot of horror stories, if that's tricking to you. Just a bit of a warning, you're going to hear some of the worst situation ship stories. And we're going to talk about whether you love them or you hate them, because some people love them. We're also going to find out why we end up in them, and whether or not we owe each other exclusivity without having the conversation right. If you're acting, you're in a relationship, but you haven't had the conversation, what do we owe each other? All right, let's get into it. So as per usual, we asked you on our Instagram, @trapagetaholcarp, have you been in a situation ship? 84% of you said yes. That's so dire. Are you surprised by that? I'm not surprised by that at all, but it is a sad statistic to hear. Dude, that's like nearly. That's like everyone. I know. There's some of the people who said, "No, I actually have been in one." And haven't realized. So I reckon the number is like almost 100%. 100%. 100%. 100%. 100%. Yeah. Okay, I want to try and unpack what actually is a situation ship. Before we hear from you in the DMs, because we had so many people who were really confused, I feel like that in itself is probably what a situation ship is. But how would you define a situation ship? It's hard, because like you said, the idea of a situation ship is a lot of the time of misalignment in how you would describe the relationship you're in. But in my mind, a situation ship is a relationship with another person where you were doing everything that you would normally do in a monogamous relationship. The conversation just hasn't happened yet about the boundaries of that. I think that's the important part is that the conversation hasn't happened, because in my mind, a lot of, you know, monogamous relationships start in the more emotional stuff starts before that conversation happens, so that's pretty normal. But I think a situation ship, it's gone to the point where it's like, okay, we're really pushing that conversation down the road. I think there's like a duration sort of aspect to it in my mind at least. Totally. I agree. I reckon for me a situation ship and the ones that I've been in are where it's very obvious that one person has the power of prolonging or withholding the conversation around what are we. And you are almost having your cake and eating it too. It's like you have everything, all the great parts of a relationship, you have the intimacy and the emotional support and the closeness of a relationship and potentially you're even meeting their friends and you're like a part of their world and you're sleeping together and you're talking all the time, but there's a level of withholding. And I always feel like it's in the control of one person compared to the other. So I'm really keen to unpack that further about that power dynamic. But this is what you said. So Gemma said, now I'm in a long term relationship. I've realized my situation ship was the exact same premise, just minus the label, two years before I pulled the plug, much happier now that there's no ambiguity. So it's kind of what you said, right? It's like it's basically exactly the same as a relationship you just haven't had the conversation. Sure, I'm saying a relationship without communication is just that. The people who assume instead of communicating other ones creating the problem, Indy saying it's the excuse to have a relationship without the responsibility. It's immature, Karina, terminology is different. Situationship seems pretty straight, benching equals dating, rotating without being ready to commit. Seems to be more communication before you get into something in my past, buying queer relationships anyway. And Nama saying, I'm in something right now that's not a situation ship because as far as I know from the conversations, neither of us are technically out for the other to want a relationship. That's the definition of a situation ship, but I'm certainly not in a relationship. It's fantastically confusing. Laura Key, the best non-relationship I've ever been in, at least we respect and like each other, but some things got to give. We'll see what happens soon, I guess. So I feel like, yeah, the definition from what I've gathered from your thoughts and our thoughts is like, it needs to be basically a relationship without having the conversation of your inner relationship. Yeah, you're building ties to the other person without actually speaking about those ties. Yeah, okay. And we also got this voice memo from Rosie talking about it. A situation ship you're just hooking up. You see nothing with this person, but you enjoy the company and, you know, the benefits. Exclusive is different in that you're choosing to focus on that person, so seeing whether you do have something there between the two of you that could be more serious. Those exclusive both physically and in terms of intentionality, but you haven't fully integrated them into your life. For example, I wouldn't introduce them to my family until after we're official, but we're taking the steps to see what it could turn into without distractions, such as dating other people or like keeping one eye on the playing field. Interesting. Yeah. That's a, again, it feels like everyone has a different definition of it because in my mind, situations that I've been in, they have felt like a situation ship to me because I do have intention and I do like the person I do see it going somewhere. Yeah, that was a bit confusing because I feel like it's almost like Rosie's describing the beginning parts, the very beginning stages of what you would assume would turn into a relationship eventually. Yeah. Well, let's figure out what the experts are saying, like, what are sites? What are therapists saying? According to Sternberg's triangular theory of love, experiences of companion and/or consummate love are often preceded by romantic love. However, situationships may be experiences of romantic love without the increases in commitment. So I guess that's kind of what I was saying just then. It's like, it's almost like the relationship escalators not happening because there's no desire to increase the relationship and progress, so that kind of makes sense, right? Yeah. It's a lot of the time you don't realize you're in a situation ship until it's like too late. Like, I don't think anyone's like, okay, now time to get into my situation ship. That is often the thing with situationships is that you don't realize you're in one until it's too late until it is, I don't think anyone goes into it going like, okay, I'm entering a situation ship. I personally have been thinking that I was forming a monogamous relationship with someone and then I realized that it isn't moving the way I want, but I'm stuck because I really like them. And then I'm like, okay, I'm in a situation ship now. Yeah, it's the lack of conversation, right? Because I think some people will be like, oh, no, we've like talked about it being a situation. No, no, no. You haven't. Yeah. You talked about being casual. Yes. You've talked about it not being a relationship, but that's what a situation ship is. And I think this is why situations can be such a mind fuck because I think as humans and this is just my interpretation of having been in quite a few of them, we don't like ambiguity. This is why we have a label for everything now, including situations, because we don't like the anxiety of sitting in a space being like, "I don't know what's happening here." And our brains always try and fill in the blanks right, like I feel like in those particular instances of those relationships, like I've always just filled in like, "Oh, well no, we must be in a relationship because they told me they can't wait for me to meet their mom." Yeah, I think. You know what I mean? But you end up sort of being like a conspiracy theorist, and you sit at home like, "Okay." So they spent 20 minutes with me, but those 20 minutes could have meant 40 minutes to them, and when I check their Instagram, they haven't been. I think that usually happens when you don't know where something is going. I think if you have entered that mental space, that's when it's getting out of hand. Yeah, and it has for so many of you. So many of you have hated the experience of being in a relationship. Jimmy's saying, "Absolutely hate the term "situationship." You're either in a courtship, and you're actively being courted, being friends with benefits or being played. Everyone has intentions, it's not just a situation. You chat about why the situation ship breakups are so painful in a bit. That's a huge, huge part. I think of why people hate them so much. But first, let's talk about our horror stories. Ben, do you have any experience of being in a really bad situation ship? Yeah, I do. And I want to preface this by saying I was young at the time. So like, with years since I have felt more grace for this person, because you know, they were probably figuring themselves out as well. But I was seeing someone where we were seeing each other like a couple times a week and getting very intimate right off the bat. And there was a point where she had gotten like a disposable camera. It was like taking photos of us together in the park. And then I was like, "Oh, do you want to be my Valentine for Valentine's?" And she's like, "Yeah, I'll be your Valentine." And then we hung out on Valentine's Day and then like a week after she just like. You did that the thing where you start to retract the. With drop, she's like really slow-roasting. Slow-roasting. And doing that thing where like, if I showed it to my friends the messages, they wouldn't be like, "Oh, they wouldn't have really anything to say about it." But me, as opposed to who's gotten used to a certain level of emotiveness in the text messages, I was like, "Okay, what the hell is going on?" You blocked it. You're like, "All right, she's pulling back." This is done. And then eventually I was just like, "Hey, I can tell this isn't going the way that I want it to." I think it's maybe best if we just end things here. Being mature but hoping she goes, "What are you talking about? I love you." I love you. I love you so much. No, but she was like, "I completely agree. Hope we can still stay friends. Wish you the best." I was like, "Fuck. I don't know her." But yeah, that was my horror story. But I did end up like speaking to her a couple years later and I got my time in the sun. I was like, "What the hell was that?" And she's like, "I'm really sorry. I don't know what I was doing then." Yeah, which I think is pretty rare. I did get a certain, I got a sense of closure. Yeah, I got a sense of closure because I, at the time, felt crazy. She was not admitting that anything had happened. Yeah. And to finally have her go, "Yeah, I kind of screwed the picture on that." Oh, 100%. The worst part is when they tell you, "Oh, we're just friends." Like, "What do you mean?" Like, "We're just hanging out. I've had that before." I, once had a guy who basically treated me like a girlfriend. Like, we saw each other every week. We went out to dinner. We were seeing each other on Sundays. We knew each other's friends. We would stay whenever he had parties. He always had parties. I would be the one that stayed over. Like, it was like the girlfriend experience. It was like, "Yeah, we're in this part. He's having all these girls around him and stuff." But then I would be the one that would stay the night. Yeah. So in my delusional head, I'm like, "Oh, it's like obviously heading." Not delusional. Thank you. Not delusional. Thank you, Ben. I was like, "Oh, we're heading towards relationship." Yeah. And then I basically, like, a few moments, I think I tested the waters. And a few moments, he would be like, "I'm really. " Like, he just would be like, "I'm not looking for relationship." Like, he made it very clear without having the combo. Like, he would just say things in passing. Like, "I'm not looking for relationship." Like, it's not the right time right now, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, it ended up like escalating, escalating, escalating until he hooked up with another girl. And I had just assumed that, like, we were exclusive because I wasn't hooking up with anyone else because of the relationship behavior, you think? And so that, like, broke my heart and it ended things with him. And then anyway, a month later, he had a girlfriend. Any help or disturb? I forgot to say this person in my horror story also got a boyfriend of a couple months after. Which, she said, "I'm not, like, I'm not really ready for anything right now. I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong idea." I was like, "Faring up." And then she. She seemed to be ready for someone else. No, I'm serious. Yeah. Maybe not hell. Maybe jail. No hell. Maybe jail. No. I just feel like if you. What is. Okay, I want to do a whole episode on the people who specifically say, "I don't want anything." Oh, I'm not ready for relationship. And then a couple weeks later, I like fully in a serious relationship. Well, the obvious thing is that they just don't want to be in the relationship with you. Yeah, I know. I get that. I'm like, "Don't say that to people." Yeah, yeah. You know, it's so hurtful. Especially if you say that to someone, you better wait like a few months. Give them a couple of months. Because otherwise, I know for sure that you've lied to me. It's so quick to turn around. I think. To go back, I think that's another really frustrating thing about situations. Is that it requires the person to pretend like. You enter this world where neither of you know how relationships work. Like, they trick you into being in this universe where seeing each other all the time, kissing, meeting each other's friends actually doesn't mean anything. There's like a, I don't want to use that word, but a gaslighting element where I'm like, "You know, we both live in the same universe." Like, you're not from a different planet or a different culture. We've seen enough movies to know at least that I might be feeling something if you treat me this way. With exactly. So when they're like, "I didn't even. " No, I'm like, "What did you think was going to happen?" We were just friends and then you have to go out to the same friendship thing, cycle parties or bars or whatever and see them with this now new person. Yeah. Well, we had a lot of horror stories from you as well. We got this story from Luca. The situation ship that I was in was where the girl pursued me. I found it interesting to fall around and she was my first kiss and first time everything. We were together at 21/7 for a couple of weeks just to two of us at some farm place. We worked that and neither of us wanted anything serious. And then when we left, I wanted to visit her and she wanted me to visit her as well. And we hadn't seen each other for like four or five days. So I took an eight-hour bus trip to see her and at first she was really excited. But then she was hooking up with some other guy there basically in front of my eyes and looking at me with pity and just kind of avoiding me. She said something like, "It's like when you get a new toy and you're just bored of the old one." And I said, "What the fuck? We've only been exploring for four weeks. It could have been casual and fun, but now you heard me like this. And we never had any exclusivity talks and she already had a long distance boyfriend which I knew off and that was fine." Luca had a situation ship with the devil it sounds like. That is one of the meanest things I've ever heard of my entire life. Imagine being like, "It's like having a new shiny toy." That's something you think and you don't say to the person. I think that is a thought that should never leave a person's mouth. It's to be called. Luca, I'm so sorry. Yeah, we're sorry for you, Luca. We're really, really sorry. You're not a toy to us. You're a person to us. You're a human being. Okay, it's making me feel slightly bad. I'm sorry that other people's stories have made me feel better. But it's like, "This is so universal. I merely a sense of voice memory as well." She basically looked up with a friend and they kept having like a casual relationship. It was on and off again and she kept catching feelings and then ending up going back to him. So here's what she said. I realized that just getting put in and out of this like weird, death situation should be scenario. With someone that's supposed to be a really good friend of yours is probably not the most loving thing to do to a friend. It really messes with my feelings, where my head's at and really makes us very vulnerable to what breaking down, which it did. I decided to call it off. It takes us a few times of still getting back together and then saying, "It's ever going to happen again." I said I needed space. As you do, it really felt like a relationship at that point. And then he had a problem when I went and slept with someone not so long after I said I needed space. Even though we were never in a relationship according to him. He mentioned that he was really contemplating getting into a relationship and he wasn't sure, but it just didn't feel right because of his trauma with his exes. Which, yeah, seems like a huge cop out to me, like takes some accountability. But also blaming, yeah, his parents' relationship on that as well. But yeah, I just don't think is it really valid excuse? I don't know. I just felt like I wasn't being treated very fairly. Even though it's something we initially agreed on, I don't know. Not sure. Well, that's really funny to blame your parents. Yeah, my parents are in a situation right now, so I just followed suit. My mom doesn't know where she stands and my dad, and that's just something I've been mimicking. I feel like the meme is so true, though, of like they couldn't commit because they were once her in like the seventh grade by their like, "Arnstival." Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah, I have a Achilles injury, so I'm not sure if I'm ready for a girlfriend right now. They never made the A4. They were all so close and now they need time to crave it. She brought up a good point about like, someone saying, "Oh, we're just friends." I'm like, "My friends, honest with me, open." They don't go, they don't ignore me for days on end. for Dies on Answer. is using the word friend for whatever a situation ship is. So like insane to me. - That's such a great point. What do you think Ben, I'm curious as a guy, because I think there's this like idea sometimes in heterodynamics that girls are ready to be in a relationship, this is very stereotypical, but that's why I want your thoughts. It's like a bit of a meme, a bit of a stereotype of like, girls are ready no matter what period of their life to be potentially in a relationship, whereas sometimes it feels like guys are like, they need all their ducks in a row, once I finish my degree, or once I finish, once I pay off my debt, or once I earn enough, what do you mean, is that true? - I look, I'm maybe unhelpful because I have been in all of these relationships, I have been the person who has been like, I am ready, and the girls have been like, I'm not sort of there, yeah. So when I heard that there was like a cultural idea that women are just the ones who are ready for the relationship, once you get close enough to them, that like set me up for failure. So often, but I do think with guys, from being friends with guys, I feel like all of those excuses are just lies, complete and utter lies to let a woman down. I don't know any time a guy has been like, ah, you know, I can't do it because of X, Y, and Z, and they're not immediately able to do it as soon. If a guy finds a woman who he wants to be in a relationship with, he could be an astronaut and being sent to space for three years and still be like, I need to lock this down. There's like no excuse that would stop a guy who wants to be in a relationship with someone. So in my opinion, it's just like all complete lies. - See, that's really interesting from your experience of the stereotype because you are then thinking like, all of these actions that this woman is doing. - Yeah. - It means that she's more likely to want the relationship and then that must be so hard when you're in that and then she's like the one kind of playing you a bit. - Yeah, I've been played multiple times, and of course each time it's been with someone who, and I think you might relate to this. It's been with a person who was like, overtly into me, it seemed from the start. Like I would go in being like, oh I kind of don't know what I'm feeling and then I would start dating a woman who was very sort of like, I want to see you, I want to hang out. You're so this, you're so that. So I'm like, oh, this is shooting fish in a barrel. I'm a guy and she's really into me. Like give it a couple months and we'll be in a relationship. - Yeah. - No, I think I am answering for the crimes of the men around me or something. I'm like, yeah, I, it happened so many times. It's a complete, complete joke. - It's so hard 'cause I feel like situationships really hurt. - Yeah. - And I think it comes down to that ambiguity, not having like a specific label to be able to then bring them into your life right in front of your friends and family. Harry sent us a DM saying, didn't realize how attached I was until I was ghosted. You grieve something that was just nothing. George is saying, I was seeing this guy for a couple of months and then he was seeing someone else and I didn't know. And then she asked him to be exclusive and he said, yes. And then I had to go, no contact with him and it broke me. I was like, yeah, what the fuck I now hate situationships. And we got this voice memo from Aisling. - It's very confusing to feel intensely for someone and there's that power imbalance because for some reason or another, at least one person doesn't want to put a label on it, or it doesn't want to be exclusive. That's the thing with situationships is the reason that they make you feel so shit is because there's always a power dynamic. I felt like I was on the shitty end of the power dynamic. Someone has the upper hand and someone's the underdog but it's usually unspoken. But I think maybe queer people, especially like lesbians and queer folk, are super communicative. - Or one of the main reasons why situationships are so awful and shitty is because when they end, you feel as though you have had a break up, but you don't feel legitimate enough to say I'm heartbroken. I've been rejected. I've suffered the loss of a person or the loss of a relationship. And there's a bit of imposter syndrome in there maybe. I'm not sure, but it's awful. And you feel so low in your self-esteem because it was this thing that you're almost mourning what could have been and there's all those like what ifs and why didn't it get to a relationship and why didn't it get to this point? - From the perspective of a person that wanted a relationship not from the person who didn't want one or like decided, okay, this isn't for us. I think it's just that awfulness of feeling invalidated by maybe society, everyone else, the people around you and also yourself. - I agree with that. I think in line with mourning something that could have happened, you also never really get to see the worst of a person. Like a situation ship, it's literally all honeymoon. And then it ends. So in long term relationships, even ones where you like really love them, the breakup is obviously awful, but you do at least get to go, oh, but they like, they were really annoying when, you know, they didn't clean up after themselves. Or that you can point to things. But when a situation ships in, it was all incredible. Like you never got to see the part of them that would have maybe annoyed you. - And it's all potential, right? - It's literally all potential. - We really like that asling pointed out the power dynamic. 'Cause that's kind of my interpretation of a situation ship is that there is always one person who is one arm, like pushing that person away. Or like in control of the pace, and it to me is sometimes so obvious that one person knows that the other would like want a relationship in a heartbeat. And so they get to like control the pace and the fact that they have that power over the person. But also really interestingly, I felt like there wasn't a lot of queer DMs. And we actually posted that on our Instagram, we were like, okay, this is a very hetero response to situations ships and then we post it being like, if you're queer, how have you experienced them? And it was pretty much crickets. Like there was a few obvious experiences like asling and like a few other people. But yeah, I wonder if this is very specific to. - hetero. - hetero. - Yeah, I do think there are dynamics that are very specific to cis men and women and how they interact with each other that allow situations ships to get to a certain point. I have definitely felt, look, I'll admit something. I have been the villain in some of my situations ships. I haven't been on, always on the shittier end. I definitely have felt myself being in more of control. And I think sometimes in my younger years, I use the fact that I was a guy and that I knew that I could maybe have a bit more control of the pace because I know that a lot of women are primed for the man to be like, okay, I'm ready to be in a relationship and ask. I would sometimes use that knowledge to just be like, well, if she's not saying anything, then I guess she's fine. Knowing that she is probably wanting something. - Yeah, and I think that we've grown up right, watching, reading, learning, about heterosexual relationships. There's so many rules, there's such a template. And I think that that's something that queer people who are gender-diverse and queer have the freedom to not really subscribe to, right? And so I think there's a lot more communication and a lot more understanding of what's happening 'cause you talk about it more. Or there's a lot more acceptance for things that are a bit more ambiguous. Whereas like, yeah, I think we just assume like, oh, it's escalating into a relationship when that might not be the case. Going back to the grief and how painful it is though, we got this voice memo from Emily. We had become really fast friends, but had zero interest in each other. One night we got drunk and hooked up. We had decided to keep it casual and put some rules in place because I had been in a situation ship beforehand and knew how painful it could be. But he pursued me and I didn't realize until it was sort of too late that I had fallen for him. I did try to break it off, but unfortunately I let myself get sucked in again. And then he had stayed over one night, left, and then just ghosted me. So that was probably the hardest part being ghosted by someone who had become my best friend and he couldn't even say, you know, it's over, or I'm sorry, or, you know, let's end this. And I didn't know how to stand up for myself. The worst part, I think, is the grief that's associated with a situation ship because you're not allowed to be sad because, you know, you officially weren't anything, but at the same time, you know, this person was everything to you. And, you know, so you're grieving all the, the waters and maybe isn't potential. I really believe, you know, you feel that you grieve for something that was nothing. - Yeah, I think there's another level of feeling it, like an idiot on top of also being heartbroken. I think in a monogamous relationship that ends, no matter how hard it is, the other person still has to acknowledge, I loved you, this is over. We are at least at parity in understanding what this was and it just has to end. Whereas when a situation ships ends, you are hurt and then also the other person kind of feels like they've taken you for a fall. - Oh, it's like a greatest sense of rejection, right? Because I think like, at the end of the day, we all want to be loved and we all want to be pit, you know? Like, we all want to be chosen, we want to be thought of as special. And someone not getting to the relationship stage is kind of being like, I don't pick you. - You could even make it through months. - You could even make it through being like, I want to be with you properly. And so I think that's like an extra version of rejection. And the fact that you, like we were saying before, like you don't get to grieve with your friends and your family because like a lot of the time, the situation ships that I had had ended, no one really knew about the guy. It was more like the guy from a angel, the guy in the band or like, you know what I mean? And so you have this, like three months seeing where you've been hooking up maybe even secretly. And then it's like this really intense whirlwind and then that ends. But you don't get to mourn that because you haven't really told anyone about it. It never was anything. Your family is like wiping if like a bitrel of a sudden. (laughing) - Does your family say that to you? - I don't, but like. - Do you feel like it's all the same? - I feel like you're just moody. - Thanks Dad. (laughing) - I don't know when you can't like, you can't really explain it 'cause they never met them. I don't know. - Yeah, we were speaking about the fact that after enough situations you do start to get, I think you get more and more secretive every time you get into one. So by the time you get to your maybe last one, you're not telling your friends anything about them. I had a situation where my friends just knew her by her Instagram handle 'cause that's how I referred to her. That's how like, that's how she came up in their minds 'cause that's the only, I would like send her share an Instagram photo with them and then the only, yeah, to this day that's the only name they know her by her Instagram handle. I also think like, have you ever had to go into work after a situation shift? I have photos of me crying in the middle of a wool worst 'cause that's where I used to work. Just like on my knees, not 'cause I was crying 'cause I was stacking the shelf. I'll show it to you afterwards. - I'll show it to you afterwards. (laughing) - But I can show the photo. I'm like, I'm so, I'm sobbing. And then if your friends ask you about it, you're like, oh, there was a girl that I met a month ago on age and we liked the same movies. And yes, so that's why I want to throw myself off a bridge right now. You feel so stupid. - It's so true, it's so true. And you're like, but I, like we messaged every day. - You don't get it. - They loved me. And like, I thought we were going to meet up. - Look, everybody memes they sent me. You don't understand the connection we had. (laughing) - I'm real. Oh my God, I feel like I've cried more of the situations than my actual boyfriend. - Yeah, yeah. - Okay, this is the controversial part of there because I'm really confused by this. And I'm candy here, your take, as well as our listeners. I wanted to know going back to that DM from Sue's right. So basically, Sue's is being like, I just assumed through the actions of what we were doing that we were exclusive. And then they're obviously so hurt by the fact that they've then found out that they've slept with someone else. So they're going, I thought it was a given. Who's in the wrong here, like without having the conversation. And so we wanted to find out is exclusivity the same as being in a relationship? And can you be exclusive with a situation and shift? And so we asked on our Instagram, does exclusive and relationship mean different things now? 44% of you said yes. 27% of you said no. And 29% of you said maybe. And a similar poll, speaking about exclusivity, we also asked you, have you ever assumed exclusivity without having the chat? 42% of you said yes. 58% of you said no. - I just think if you're exclusive, you're in a relationship. I think it's as simple as that. To me, exclusive, if you are having the conversation about exclusivity, it's like what else is what? We were speaking about the idea that a label is for something that exists, not the other way around. You don't label something and then it becomes that. If you, in a point where you were sleeping with someone, you have strong feelings for them. And the final thing you've agreed to be monogamous, no matter what happens next, it will be a breakup. You will feel like you've lost your boyfriend or you've lost your girlfriend. So you may as well just call it a relationship. I don't know if that's close-minded, but I don't know what people get out of not calling it a relationship. 'Cause if they sleep with other people, your upset sounds like a relationship to me. You have a commitment to each other that sounds like a relationship to me. If it ends. - You're saying I love you potentially. - I love you potentially. That sounds like a relationship to me. I think if you were in an exclusive situation with someone and they said, "I don't wanna see you anymore," would you be like, "Oh, I feel all right," because he wasn't my boyfriend. - Yeah. - No, it's the same thing. - It was exactly. - I feel really old school about that. And I've noticed a change happen with my single friends with like, "Oh, we are just seeing each other, but it's not anything yet." I'm like, "Who the fuck are you kidding?" - Well, I've noticed that there's a real split of like, where exclusive? They've had the exclusive chart. - Yeah. - But they haven't had the relationship chart. And I think I might have even have done these in my relationships where you do have the exclusive chart. Or maybe back in the day, it was just relationship chart. - Yeah. - But then it's been like no exclusive chart, but not relationship chart. And then you have the relationship chart. And if that's the trend that I've noticed changing. - Yeah, I guess I was a very quick mover. Like I think once I know that I wanna be exclusive it's on, I'm like, I obviously want you to be my girlfriend. I think any time there was a gap between exclusivity and relationship, it might have been like, literally one or two days. Or like once we have that chat, "Oh, I'm gonna be thinking about as well." If you're not gonna be my girlfriend, what the hell we doing? - I feel like older people listen to this and go, "What do you mean?" - Yeah, well, I feel old. Whenever I hear this, I'm like, "Well, you get down on one knee and you be honest with that." - And you say, "Well, you put me back on that." Well, we heard some text from you as well. We got this voice memory from Sophie. - I definitely think you can be having sex exclusively with someone and also be talking to them every day, messaging all the time, seeing them a lot without being in an official relationship. It all comes down to communication as long as it's consensual and you set clear boundaries from the start and you know you're on the same page. As obviously it can get messy. Someone can develop feelings for the other person, but I've definitely had situations where I've been exclusively having sex with someone and sex doesn't always throw a huge spatter in the works. I know some people can only have sex with people they feel a romantic connection with and obviously it's probably more ideal that way, but it doesn't really need to turn into a relationship unless either person isn't happy with that arrangement anymore. So basically, underscore communication is key. Sophie isn't a really happy, long-term relationship right now. - Okay. - Just to premise the voice memory. So it sounds like she's had a lot of experience of all of the exclusive, the non-relationship, this and that, different types of experiences. I do think that, especially in open relationships and the ethically non-monogamous community, you can have relationships outside of exclusivity so that to me makes sense. But yeah, I don't know. I think maybe I'm potentially like a bit, my definition is like, yeah, if you're exclusive, you're probably just like a couple of days away from a relationship. - Yeah, have you been in something exclusive without it being a relationship? - I think it's to me, yeah, but I think it's more of the relationship escalator, right? So for me, it's like you've gone from dating to get to know each other, to then being like, I'm really invested in this and I really want to see where it goes. So let's just become exclusive and focus on each other and then it's progressed to like, okay, I'm like really committed. - Okay. - And we're now like long term. Where we're like in this, then that's when I'm introducing you to my family. Like I don't think I'm introducing someone that I make exclusive with my family, but if you and I are like, we're boyfriend-girlfriend, we're partners. - Then there are these types of expectations. - Then they're meeting the family. - Look, maybe I just move quick. I think to me, I am pretty much once I'm ready to stop sleep with other people, I am ready for someone to be my girlfriend and to meet my family and to meet my friends. I'm honestly ready for them to meet my family and friends before we've gone exclusive. So once we're exclusive, it's like, that's it. That's it, I'm gonna be hurt either way. That's what, yeah, to go back, I don't understand. It's just adding an extra step where you will get hurt either way. So, you may as well, it all works the same. - Mead said to me, exclusive equals the only person I'm sleeping with, relationships are different and likely to follow, okay, that's kind of awful. But communication is key, they say always, regardless of casual, exclusive or inner relationship. And Petra saying, in the best situation of my life, we are on the same page about wanting a future together. We want to get to know each other as friends first. I'm like, that's just dating to me. - Yeah, you're dating someone. I think she just doesn't know what a relationship means. - Yeah, 'cause I'm like, you're on the same page, you want a future, you're a friends first. Like, you're a progressing, I'm assuming, unless they call the rug. - I went on a date with someone last night, so we're in a situation where she was like, no, you're just beginning a relationship. It's a start of a relationship. - Yeah, and I think I wonder as well, can you call it a situation when you're in it? Which is, is it like a in-mind side, actually? I thought it was a relationship, it turns out it wasn't. It was a situation. - I think ironically, once you call it a situation ship and you're in it, you need to get out of it. (laughing) - Anytime I've been like, I'm in a situation ship, it's because I'm upset and I need to get out. - You need to get out, you're in denial. - Yeah. - Kiely, then as this voice member about being casual but exclusive. - I was in a situation ship for about one to two years, which is embarrassing enough. Anyways, so at that time, we were considered casual, but we had the discussion and we were also exclusive. Since I was in my early 20s, I did want to go to Europe before I was set to leave on this four to six month trip. About a week before he decided, it was a good idea to confess his feelings for me and that he would like to be in a relationship with me. I was shocked at the time, but I reciprocated those feelings at the time and thought, yeah, let's do it. Like once I get back, how about we give it a go and we try and rekindle things. So when I was in Europe, we both were single, but we definitely kept in contact. There are a lot of plans for the future. He wanted to go on holiday when I came back. I wanted to meet his family. When I came back, I was expecting, to be in a relationship. We had this wonderful weekend together as soon as I got back. He had planned a date. We had done all these relationship type things. And then on the Monday after I came back, he decided it was all too much for me and he ended up dumping me there. And I was shopped to say the least because there were a lot of promises that were made. But ultimately I think it comes down to the fact that he was quite avoidant. And I think it's easy to romanticize a casual relationship when there are no real expectations there. How you're meant to behave in a relationship versus a casual situation ship are two vastly different things. And I think the level of effort required in a relationship is a bit of a step up. And I think he must have realized that and he got a little bit spooked when everything came to fruition and everything was starting to become a bit too real for him. So yeah, no hate to him should happen. And I'm now in a good relationship. We're all good. Not with him. That's a healthy human. I don't know what is casual about exclusivity. It seems pretty not casual to me. I just think thank God she didn't end up being in a relationship with him while she went to Europe. Because I actually was in a relationship and broke up with my boyfriend to go to Europe eight months. And it was like the best decision I had made. And we ended up breaking up anyway. It's like we wouldn't have lost it. And so thank God she didn't commit to the relationship while she was in that life for four months. So another poll that we asked you on Instagram was if you're seeing each other multiple times a week, you're texting daily and you're not sleeping with anyone else. Is that casual? 86% of people said no. Which I think is a no brainer. No brainer. But this is the thing. Because how often have people been in things where you're seeing each other multiple times a week? You're texting daily. You're not sleeping with anyone else. But you haven't had the conversation. And then they have the audacity to turn around and say like oh no we're just friends. Or oh no this is casual. Or oh no I didn't want a relationship. I'm getting obviously like throwing shit around the room. Getting heated. Clear. Haven't healed. That's what I mean where it makes you also feel like an idiot. Because when someone says that I'm like okay you grew up in this country with the same movies I was watching and surrounded by the same people unless you were like on a commune or something. Even if you don't subscribe to these ideas of monogamy. You at least are aware of them. So when someone's like I didn't even know I'm like you are just lying. You're fully lying to me. You knew exactly what was happening here. But then Katie has a bit of a hot take. She actually disagrees with us. And she thinks we've got too many labels to say that people lead on labels too much these days. And that then dictates how much respect they end up putting into whatever relationship you have. So this is what she said. I think situationships are such a stupid concept. I've never understood the popularity of the term. People these days are just so desperate to be in relationships. If they can't be in a relationship because that other person doesn't want it they then call it a situation ship because it's better than being alone. I also think when you put the label situation ship on it you're then allowing more toxic behaviors. It's almost like an excuse to accept someone that isn't actually treating you right even though if that label was switched to a relationship or partner boyfriend girlfriend whatever it is you would put in a lot more boundaries and wouldn't accept that toxic behavior. I just don't understand why everything needs to label these days. I just really think that we should just go back to dating someone. I can't we just date and enjoy it without putting labels on it. And hey if it turns into something more than excellent and if it ends not so bad either if we're going to use any term I would definitely prefer taking a lover. I think we agree with her more than it might sound. I think some of that was in line with what we were saying. But I don't think that anyone's actively calling the thing. No, no one's like awesome. I'm getting into a situation ship right now. Again it is a label for something that is unlabeled. So I do agree that it doesn't need its own. Yeah, she followed. She followed over the DM that said I'm actually in open relationships one for two years. I think people expect me to put a label on her but to me he's just sexy name. And I really enjoy what we have. It doesn't need a label but I guess he's technically classified as a fuck buddy or friends with benefit but even then I still don't feel the need to add a situation ship or label of any kind. I just enjoy it for what it is. Does it bring me joy? Yes, no further analysis needed. But I agree that it's almost a way of legitimizing one-sided non-committment. If you're happy like it sounds like for her and for other people they love a situation ship. It works for them. Yeah. They get the casual relationship without the label of a relationship. They get to enjoy ethical nominogamy potentially. Yeah. And the ambiguity of just dating multiple people without having to worry about like what this is and labeling that. So I do agree. I'm like yeah if you're happy with it then it's absolutely fine. But I think this comes to the misinterpretation of the label. Yeah again if you're happy with it it's not a situation ship. It's a casual relationship. I've had plenty of people I've seen and had a connection with who I would not consider a situation ship and I don't think they would either. I think regularity of time spent together also goes into it because like I think if you are sleeping with someone you know once or twice a month for a long period of time I think that is in a situation ship and I think it prevents it from becoming one but when you are spending enough time with someone that it's like affecting your ability to explore things with other people or just you know have time to yourself or see your friends and it's not escalating and they're not dedicating themselves to you. I think that yeah that's when it becomes a situation ship. And that's when it becomes kind of quote unquote a bit problematic on your end. While there isn't any research on whether or not there's been a rise in situation ships I think that's like we've been harping on about the fact that like we don't really label use that label. I definitely think there has been and I think we can talk about this anecdotally because I think due to just the rise of dating apps and everyone being online and the way that systemically dating apps have changed the way that we date to me it's kind of like a no-brainer that there is a rise in situation ships and the ambiguity of like just casual dating and not knowing like what this is. Also the rise in ethical non-monogamy and this is something that we do know has happened. So some data shows that alternative dating apps like field reported a nearly 500% increase in mentions of ENM terms in user profiles. Interesting. And up to 50% of Gen Z indicate that non-monogamy is their ideal relationship type. So I think if we think about that and we think about like yeah open relationships in ethical non-monogamy and how normalized. 50% yeah I know yeah so I think I think with dating apps and just like people not really wanting to commit and it just being so normal to just date casually that we would have like a huge increase. I think dating apps also allow you to meet people who have no connections to your friends or family which I think allows a person to just kind of do whatever they want. They're like hey I'll see him and if I treat him badly it'll end and I'll never hear from them again and I'll never have to sort of answer for this. Which is why so many people never leave the talking stage. Yeah. Because I think so many people can easily talk to lots of people once. Yeah. And create that intimacy which is why people get catfished. Create that intimacy so quickly right and you're like oh but we talked every day for a month and they said they loved me and like we have we have the exact same like star sign and like and you like think that you are so close to this person and then all of a sudden you barely met and they've ghosted you and you're like grieving this thing. I think dating apps allow you to also sort of without noticing get better and better at doing that. You start to see the patterns of what kind of people like to hear and what gets the best. This makes me sound like a sociopath but I think everyone like pre dating apps you just kind of got to meet people and you don't get the pure influx of human beings that you speak to so you kind of going to start from scratch each time but with dating apps you kind of yeah you can live in that. The game of vacation starts to you so go I kind of see how this uh this kind of works and you can live in that casualness really easily. Yeah. Well shout out to a lot of our listeners who aren't gens at a millennial we have a few and it's amazing because you know sometimes we talk about topics like this and they'll be like hang on a minute like they've seen the generational change and we got this voice member from Riva talking about what she's noticed. I'm an elder Gen X and I think like a lot of women my age we just don't play games anymore. We're just going to be a lot more direct with what we want. We're at a place in our lives where we've learned a lot about ourselves and we just ask for what we want and we seek what we want. I will say that I think the whole situation ship thing is a product of the dating apps because to be fair in my 20s and 30s you know I don't think we had situations ships we certainly didn't have the word. People said they didn't want something serious you know they were just seeking casual so I do think it's a product of the dating apps and I think now being bombarded with so many choices not just on the dating apps but just through social media. I don't think that's helping a lot of people in situations ships are just waiting for the next better thing to come along they just think something better is going to come along you know the whole grasses greener attitude and I and I think that social media and the dating apps have really perpetuated that so when it comes down to it though man as for what you want use your words. Love that Riva that was incredible Riva. I know shout out Riva thank you so much it's really really awesome to see because like you would have like people would have seen what we have you know what I mean? And the progression, I have another hot take which actually is like shouting ourselves, calling ourselves out. And that is, I actually think the person knows on some level that you're in a situation where someone doesn't want to commit and you are so scared of losing that person by like having the chat and being like what's going on here that you purposely don't. And I know this from my own experience and it's like I think if I was being really honest with myself, that guy that I was telling you about, I knew that just by his little comments here and there that he obviously didn't want to commit to me. And I could have easily been like hey, what's going on here? Yeah. You've told me you love me like we're hanging out like we're dating but I'm getting mixed messages like if I was real with myself, I would have on some level known that he didn't want to be with me. But I chose to just not have that conversation and deal with the heartbreak of hearing it. Sure. And so I kind of continued on in something that I kind of knew. All of the times I've ended up in a monogamous relationship, it's actually been like super easy, there's been no push and pull, it's been like oh this is obviously going the way it's going, I feel no ambiguity, I have no fear and then you end up in a relationship. But that just doesn't feel as exciting or sexy. So I think it just seems like it'll feel really good to convince someone who was not sure about you, whereas someone who is sure about you, it's probably the most likely person to be your partner, but it just doesn't feel as like you're not second guessing. Yeah and yeah, it just also doesn't, it's like this is happening too easily for me, this needs to be harder. Yeah, there's no drama. Yeah. Well, Kim said sometimes I'd rather enjoy a good person for a while than continue with the murky waters that is the dating pool. And I think that's also real, it's like you have a really amazing connection with this person potentially, maybe you have really good sex, maybe you get along more than you've ever gotten along with anyone else. And so you think, fuck it, do I just continue on in this situation ship thing? That's not a relationship, but it's better than what else is out there, knowing that it will probably end in heartbreak. But yeah, I think that sometimes if we were truly honest with ourselves, like we kind of know you do know, you do know, but I also think that if you're in a good, if you're in a situation ship with someone who you like enough, it also unfortunately makes it really hard to even distract yourself with other people. I think you also find, start to find other people unattractive in comparison to them. The idea of, you know, not putting all your eggs in one basket is hard when like one basket makes all the other baskets look really shit. So you just end up getting deeper and deeper anyways because of that as well. So when it comes to just that communication and being able to suck it up and have that hard and difficult combo of just being like, what's going on here and be vulnerable? Jeremy is like leaning absolutely off for it. I just don't understand how people find it hard to have the conversation. I'm probably talking about, you know, what we want from a relationship super early. And so I'm super clear about what I want and what I'm looking for. And it's just like an ongoing thing. I feel like I check in pretty often where people are at, how they're feeling, etc. You've got to have that conversation. Otherwise, you have no idea what's going on. I don't understand how people can sit with the ambiguity of not knowing what a relationship is and what people's intentions are. I feel like you just got to lean into the vulnerability and just talk about it, talk about where you're at. And then that gives them permission and freedom and trust and security to talk about where they're at. All right, Jeremy. Very mature. Very mature, Jeremy. No, I agree. But I will say counterpoint, I think I've probably ended up in situationships because I'm also a person who isn't 100% sure. I do want to be in a relationship with a person from the start. So during the stage where I'm figuring it out, I don't want to have that conversation because I'm not even sure if by the end that I do want them to be my girlfriend. Ironically enough, I've also been in situationships where I'm like really heartbroken of the idea that they don't want to be my girlfriend. But then if they were like, do you want to be my boyfriend? I'd be like, I'm not sure. Yeah. I think that's also an underrated part of situations. But I think we can normalize like having the unsureness in part of the combo, right? I've seen it in movies and like I've done it myself where you just kind of go like you're communicating the whole time. I think like the older I got, the healthier I got with having those combos earlier on like Jeremy was saying and being able to say like, I don't know what I, I don't know, but I like where this is heading. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And it's like, I don't know where I see this going, but like I'm really enjoying your company. Or like I'm really enjoying getting to know you and I'm not seeing anyone else at the moment. You know, like, I think there's ways to kind of check in with each other even in the grainess of dating of what's where is this going and just making sure like, oh actually two weeks ago, I didn't really know where this was going. But now I'm actually I'm feeling really close to you and I see potential for relationship. I think a good way to kind of wrap this app up and is something that Ainsley said who we heard a DM from before. They said the talk sickness of a situation should will never come from in my opinion, the person who you're meant to be with who loves and truly respects you. And I feel like that's kind of what you were saying. Yeah, completely agree. The person you're meant to be with won't leave you in a space of guessing, second guessing and doubting yourself and doubting what this is and gas like a space of gas lighting and being unsure. Yeah. Like they will hopefully respect you enough to let you know. And like you said with all the tropes that we live in this world, we've all watched movies of like if you are telling someone you love them and you're introducing them to your friends and your family and stuff like you are essentially without having the conversation like leading them on. Yes, you are. You are. I don't care how upfront you've been about your feelings. I don't care what you say. It doesn't matter if you've given a disclaimer. That just gets to a point where you are doing things that we all understand. Do not a commitment eventually or at least the idea of a commitment. Oh, God. God. Oh, my God. Thank you so much to everyone who DMed us and sent through your real vulnerable stories. I feel you. I hear you. We've all been there. Yeah. It's been a really good episode. I feel like we haven't done situations. I don't think ever. This is the first time. Yeah, which is so wild considering how fucking normal they are and how common. So I hope that you've yeah, listened or watched and felt a level of reassurance that you're not alone and what you're going through. And if there's anything that you want us to cover on the hookup podcast, please DM us on Instagram. Actually, we did the hookup. And yeah, we'll see you next week. Bye. Bye.