248: What Supervision Really Means for Your Coaching Practice

[Music] This podcast is brought to you by the Association for Coaching, one of the world's leading international professional bodies which is advancing coaching in business and society worldwide. I'm Helena Grady, a master executive coach and coach supervisor and your host for this in-depth series on coaching supervision. Each episode delves into a distinctive aspect of supervision with leading practitioners and thought leaders in the field, uncovering the nuanced ways supervision enhances coaching practice, supports well-being and drives professional growth. Whether you're a seasoned supervisor, a coach curious about supervision, or simply interested in the dynamics of reflective practice, this series offers illuminating conversations that will transform how you think about coaching excellence. Marie, welcome to our podcast on coaching supervision. Thank you so much for agreeing to be on it. I'm really looking forward to our discussion. Introduction Marie Fair, coach consultant trainer for over 35 years. The beyond partnership is known that you're part of a master executive coach of the AC and master executive supervisor as well with the AC and a trainer on that. Lots and lots of strings to your bow and we're really grateful, particularly this kind of introduction to coaching supervision to have you here. So welcome. Thank you. So as we kick off, how would you define coaching supervision and what do you think makes it important? How would I define it? I think that there's many ways of defining it and I I'm sure if you picked up 15 books on coach supervision, they'd define it with similar words, but in different orders and what they'd say is most important. For me, it's a safe, psychologically safe, confidential space to explore your practice, to reflect on your practice and I would go further than reflect on your practice just to be as a coach looking at all aspects and any aspects of your life that impact on, I believe it's you were one person, were a whole person. So anything that's going on in our life will impact our practice and so anything can be brought to supervision. But the real important bit for me is about trust. It's a trusted relationship between two practitioners usually, but not exclusively. Supervision might come from somebody who has a counselling or therapy background, but who will understand coaching and the coach territory? It's a reflective space. But I think what you're saying is the reflective space and the exploring is for the purpose of developing practice. So it's not just an exploration or reflection for the sake of it, yet it's about the person, but it's linking to who we are as coaches. It's linking to who we are as people and us coaches and any exploration I believe leads to hopefully learning awareness, growth. I think coach supervision is just the best CPD for the coach can do. Because it's targeted, it's what you bring, it's your agenda. So whatever you bring, I often liken it when I'm talking to a potential supervisor, it's like you've got something and you bring it, you get to choose what you bring to me. And so you bring something and I'm having a look at it as well as you and we turn it upside down and inside out and then we, oh, I didn't know it did that, you know, and we explore possibility. It's why I call myself as a fellow traveller. Yeah. Because it's a mutual exploration. As opposed to something with a specific destination in mind. Yeah. We're traveling together, maybe quite nowhere we're going, but we're going somewhere. Yeah, as a supervisor, I get the privilege of joining your path. You choose what you bring, you choose where we're going. And if we get a fork in the road, you'll choose which way we go. I get to join your path, your agenda, but I learn in the process too. I quite often say the reason you pay me for supervision is you pay because you choose the agenda. We'll both learn from the process. I love it so much because it's constant learning. Yeah. And no two sessions are ever the same, whether it's with different coaches, all the same coaches, always something unique about that particular session. You've kind of touched on it, but if you were to pull out even further what you see, the key benefits that coaches who do invest in regular supervision get, that's different from other CPD. I mean, you've talked about the unique no-sovere and the individual approach. As a profession, it's a lonely profession. It's something you quite often do with just you and your client. So I think there's the learning for sure. But there's also the support, the professional assurance from the point of view, ethics, the developmental function. And I think we can't underestimate the supportive function, particularly when coaches are dealing with things they didn't expect to deal with. They think it's going to be one way and then they get with a real human being in the room. But even with very mature, I don't mean in age, but experience coaches, I wouldn't be without my supervisor. I mean either. Why would you be alone with this stuff? And through the exploration, I have more options. I can get reassurance that I handled something well enough. I can also learn possibilities of even more options next time I'm faced with something like that. If I'm dealing with somebody who is very distressed, I get the reassurance that I did okay. And if I could have done better, I get to learn that too. And that's what I hope I'll offer people is, if you don't look forward to supervision. I think there's something seriously wrong. I know in therapy it's different. And it's a different relationship because the therapist's relationship is different with their clients. But as a coach supervisor, I want people to look in the diary and go, oh great, I've got a session next week. I don't want them to look at their diary and go, oh, go on, do I have to? This is not going for your sort of monthly injection. You look the other way and it's done to you. Yeah. This is precious time. That's all focused on you and what you want. And I want people to go away from it, feeling more resourced. And they have been cared for. I work with a lot of people who are working with all sorts of areas where you go, and their basic training really prepare them. Yeah. Or the sort of level of trauma with a small tea that it's right on the cusp of whether you should refer or not. And yet they're holding that. And that's been true, probably forever, but it's certainly been true all through COVID. And it's a tough old world out there, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. People are carrying a lot and we know that. And one of the precious things about coaching is that's the space often that people do come because they may not have access to therapy and they are bringing them true selves. And as you say, coaches then can end up holding that. And then yeah, like you, I want people I'm working with to feel lighter. Yeah. But more resourced as well as you say, I love that phrase of more resource to choose what to do and feel like they're not doing it on their own. And then why that sounds all deadly serious, but there's usually a good dollop of humor in it too. And that's good. What there is with me. Yeah. I think we can laugh at the human condition, including our own. Absolutely. And we need to laugh that doesn't mean that we're not taking stuff seriously. Yeah. It's a way of processing and it's a way we know it helps our brains as well. To actually make sense of what's going on to have some lightness and positive emotion that that laughter brings. It's nice to hear. As you said, you could pick up 15 books and they'd all have a slightly different definition. And this is probably true when I ask you about the approaches and models and that kind of all different stuff out there. But really, my question is with all of that, how would a coach work, how which model or which approach might work for them? Do you think? My best advice would do to be to get on a discovery call with somebody that you like the look of, your ask around, get on a discovery call and take it from there. There's some rationale. You could check their qualified, amazing number of people who don't. You can check their qualified as a supervisor. You could check their level and more than their level of experience. It's not just about the number of hours of experience they've got. If you're working, wanting to work with an experienced coach, what sort of experiences do you want them to have? Do you want somebody who's eclectic? Or do you want somebody who's a specialist and a give an area. And the most important thing is, do you get a sense that you could talk to them and trust them? Because if you're not going to bring your most vulnerable, your scary things, the things where you feel inadequate, the things where you feel out of your depth, and you're going to go, "Oh, I'm not going to say that to you, you know, her." Then they're the wrong person for you. And say, "May I have three sessions with you?" May I have three and just see if you do fit with each other. Because it's about the connection, isn't it? As you say, supervision can't happen without that trust. And often you can get a sense of that in the describing colour. Where is this somewhere? Is this a space where I feel like I could try stuff? But actually, as you say, over time, really is where you can decide, "Yeah, this is, I can take my worst stuff here." You'll get a sense of the models or theories or the frameworks or their style from that discovery call. So it'll knock out anybody that's really way off being right for you. And then test it in real life and see what it's like to bring things to people very often. In the long term relationship that you can build with a supervisor, which is, I think, one of the great things in the supervision is that they get to know you. They get to know you, not only at a competency level, but also about who you are, how you process, how you learn. And your supervisor, hopefully, will pay attention to that. If you're working with somebody who's very internal and very reflective, then I'll say, "Hold that less." And I will. To somebody who wants it to be much faster and quicker and dynamic, neither are right or wrong. One of my real favourite quotes, it's a roomy quote, "Beyond the notion of right doing and wrong doing, there is a field. I'll meet you there." And that's for me the field of supervision. Yeah. In 15 years, I have said, "No, you shouldn't do that." I think probably less than a handful of times. It's not about Schudzenort. It's very rare. And those were particularly extreme examples that one of them that embelled suicidal ideation. So they're the real extremes of it, where the course of action that the coach was proposing would have been inappropriate. Five times in 15 years, I'm saying, "Dad, record." So that field is, I think, supervision as it's about. I talk about that as the messy grace space. And it's big, it's where pretty much all coaching is, isn't it, as you say? There's the extremes. But actually most of any conversation and any relationship and any learning is in the messy grace space or in that field of possibility. Yeah. Do you think there's any kind of misconceptions about supervision? I think the misconception, since it's not in that field, the misconception is about wrong and right. Note that somehow your supervisor's going to sit there with a clipboard and make notes on you and tell you what you should or shouldn't do. And of course there may be supervisors out there that do that, but I think they're feeling far between. That's not what it's about. And it's a shame. Yeah. What's a shame is also more of the training programs don't insist on supervision right from some of his first training. And people who have been in the trade a long time may well think, "What do I need a supervisor for?" And I think it's a shame when people haven't experienced it and the richness that it brings for people. And that leads to that question around the difference between maybe a novice coach and an experienced coach and you talked about the longevity sometimes of supervision relationships. What do you see happening over that trajectory? Well, I've got people I've worked with for years and years and years and it's lovely. I feel we've grown together. I've grown. I've grown too. New coaches, I think, by and large need slightly different things from supervision. It's a long time since I was a new coach, but the coaches that I've trained and the coaches that I see that are new. It's a long time for you, but you remember when you will just after the killer question because somebody on a call said what you had to think of. So then your anxiety goes through the roof that you might not be able to find it or the fear that you're going to get in a room with somebody and not know what to say or what to do or that the new clients that they have don't behave anything like their student clients did and they asked them questions and should they answer them and how do they answer them. Those are the things that initially it short lived, but initially. And I think that's where supervision encompasses being a coach to a coach, but it also encompasses being a mentor sometimes to people in those early days. Then even with experience to coaches, they may come across something they've never come across before and in supervision, well, go, I don't know what to do. I feel like an obvious again. It's not that it mentoring role within supervision is just for the very early development. It's just it's more likely to predominate in my experience. The fellow traveler bit is absolutely true when you're working with people who have got 10, 15 years coaching experience and more. And they want to work at depth very often. They may work about they may bring clients, but they may bring concepts, they may bring thoughts and new coaches tend to bring more about their business. As well, I know that some supervisors go that's out of the field and they don't do it. My feel is that's part of who they are and if they want to use some of their supervision to talk about their business because they're finding out who they are. How to set this door up. It's all part of the process. Well, it's real and it's very present for them, isn't it without? Right here. Yeah, exactly. They haven't got a coaching business. They can't coach. Oh, yeah, I've got one coach and I've got a supervisor and I've got it's right here. Absolutely. As you say, more experienced coaches, I always talk about my own supervision that it helps me go deeper and further. Yes, I can reflect on my own. I support other people to reflect, but there is something about doing it with somebody else that definitely allows me to go deeper and further that I really value. What about the difference between individual and group supervision? Try them out would be my advice to people. Yes. Experience both. See which fits for you and which you look forward to. Are several people that I work with? Some who have individual with me who are in a group somewhere else, some who are in a group with me but have individual somewhere else, some who come to me for both and some who only come from one or the other. I think group supervision particularly suits people who like groups obviously and who are maybe in the earlier stages of their work. Having said that, there's exceptions to that. I have one group of very, very experienced coaches who love working with each other and then my role becomes one of facilitator and a bit like the doormass and all of us and what do I feel I'm in a tea pot most occasionally pop up and say something because they're doing it all, but they're still learning from each other and building on each other. And that's the lovely thing about a group as you're hearing. I'd never have thought of bringing that or wow, I've never experienced that. Now if I did, I've got more information. And the other way round of, oh yeah, I've experienced that, the validation of what somebody else is thinking or feeling or experience has happened to somebody else because as you say coaching is happy, quite isolating. And that's real, very strong, isn't it? That's real reassurance for people. And yeah, I agree. I have both because I get something different from both of them and I get value out of them. But I think people may have a sense. They might be I know that I'm an introvert and actually only feel comfortable talking one on one or actually, I really like that shared experience. Yeah, cast it out, see? And again, there's different styles in group supervision, different supervisors, war run groups differently. And I'm back in the field again, it's not about right or wrong. It's about what what fits for you as a supervisor. What is it that you want out of it? And what will suit you best? Sure, as you say, there isn't no right or wrong. It's such a personal preference, isn't it? Both a personal preference and personal experience as well. I'm going to ask you to put your magicians hat on. Or your future glasses. What do you think might evolve or be significant for coaching supervision in the next five years or so? Well assuming the planet survives, we don't blow ourselves up from that big assumption. I hope it will become even more mainstream than it is now. That it will be rather like supervision in other professions. Other professions that want to one with people where it's isolated. And therefore they have a supervisor for the same reasons that you and I are saying have a supervisor 'cause it's lonely out there. I hope it would become as mainstream and routine. Almost what I would we be talking about it. It's a given. That's a hope rather than a crystal ball. (laughing) But I don't think it's an impossible thought because some of the other professional bodies that saw sort as an option CPD, are now seeing it as more desirable than that and wanting to encourage people to be in supervision. And I think that's been part of the growth of the coaching profession and the industry that people are realising. In social work, you do right to have a supervisor. And see it as an infosition. You see it as a right because you don't want to be left with it on your own. And in fact they have two types often, case supervision and reflective supervision to look at both things. Yeah. And I certainly as an individual supervisor encompass both those and anything else as well. Yeah. And I wonder whether as the advent of AI coaching and hopefully another way that coaches as we become more professional and distinguishing themselves is, am I accredited? Have I got supervision? Actually people asking those questions as a way to separate because I think they're space for all of that. But it is hopefully a differentiation point as well. Yes, it's a bio-aware market at the moment for coaching and supervision because plants so rarely ask if you are qualified. They rarely ask about your experience as a coach. It surprises me that I don't get asked more frequently am I in my own supervision. Yeah. Very, very, very rarely ask that question. It's usually me that mentions it. Yeah, as you say, I mention it too 'cause I think that's really important if you're a coach but particularly if you're a supervisor that you're in your own supervision. Absolutely, I've said earlier on, I'll be with the afternoon. And coaches thinking about adding supervision to their toolkit wanting to train as a supervisor, what do you think the benefits are? Well, I think that there are different reasons why people choose to become a supervisor or go through supervisor training, should I say. And worked with folk who have come to supervision, training to deepen their own coaching to add the perspective on. It was Patrick Kessman, wasn't it, who coined the expression, the internal supervisor and Edna Murdoch who has really championed that and written about it. I love the concept of the internal supervisor. It's that part of ourselves we talk to when we're making decisions about, shall we do this or shall we do that? I think supervision training really develops the internal supervisor as well as the external one. And I have had people come to supervision training for that reason because they want you to enhance. I've had people come because they thought they'd love supervision and they realize they don't. But they're still grateful for the experience because they found out that it's not what they want to do currently and what they've got out is that deepening of their own practice. And then there's the people who are dupster water. They absolutely, like I do, love supervision. I think in supervision, what I love about is that I feel a George Bernard Shaw said thoroughly used up. It's like, if I've got the competency use it in supervision and some people come because they've got an inkling, they've had a good supervisor, they've enjoyed their experience of being on that side of it. And over time, I have decided, do you know what? I think I might. Or maybe even of the encouragement of their own supervisor, they've considered that this might be something that they offered alongside their coaching. It's rarely instead of, isn't it, for most people? Yeah, and I've got a lot of sympathy with what they say in therapy in the therapy world that you do need to maintain your own practice. And it might be a much smaller percentage, which it certainly is for me these days. But I do still coach. And I think it's important that I do what I make it a rule, no, because I don't, wouldn't make very few things. We're back to the right and wrong. I do encourage people to go, could you get out of touch otherwise? You forget what it's like. And how hard it is at times, you know, coaching sometimes is really hard. I don't have particular rules about when people, because you can have somebody who's relatively inexperienced, but has a real wide range of experience to be a coach. And the somebody else who may have been doing it for five years, but it's only one very narrow type of coaching that's been doing. Who's to say that one more automatically, because they've been doing it for five years, make the better supervise them? I don't think that's true. I don't feel for it. I would want people to have experience of coaching. Interestingly, when AC developed their supervise accreditation, there was a series, Michelle Lucas set up a series of focus groups. And coaches were being asked, what would you look for in the supervisor? And the number one thing was experience. They wanted to know their supervisor knew what it was like at the call face metaphorically. They knew what it was like to be out there and being a coach. And they wanted to know that they had experience. I get that. Yeah. So yeah, I think if people get the feel that they'd like to be a supervisor, then talk to your own supervisor about it. And specifically supervisor training, because again, there's lots of different providers out there, there's a lot of different lengths of course. And declare a conflict of interest. I knew there's a conflict of interest, but I think it's important. And I don't think it is a conflict of interest, but I think it's your perspective. And that's okay. That's what we're here for. Marie, that's why I invite you on. What do you think is important to look for in supervision training? Like in many fields, that's the good, the bad, and the indifferent out there. And as you know, I want a coach supervision program myself. Do due diligence? Yes. Check, check their reputation. Check if you can, who the lead trainers are. Get to speak to one of them. Have a real sense that they are looking at the breadth and depth of supervision. Just because they've got a big name doesn't mean to say that they are doing that. There are some supervision programs now. You're very short. Yeah. And it's a bit like a short coach program. I don't want to dish a short coach program. Having the basic knowledge, knowing the grow model. You know, it's revolutionary for some people that they might ask an open question and listen. Yes. Yeah. It's good stuff. As that very short coat make you a coach, it means that you've got coaching skills you can apply in your work. I think it's the same, in my opinion, it's true about coach supervision. Just because you know the seven-eyed model doesn't make you a supervisor. Yeah. And if that's all you know, what was the old adage? If you've only got a hammer, you tend to treat everything as if it's a nail. If you've only got the seven-eyed model, it's like only having the grow model. Yeah. You stuff people through it whether they want to be or not. And that's not what either of those models were ever intended to be. They weren't intended to be a process you shoved people through. So ask, find out, do they cover what to do as a supervisor in multiple different circumstances? Are they more than being just a coach or coach? Yeah. So I think supervision is more than that. I think people expect more than that. For sure. Or they should expect it. If they don't. And I think that, you know, that's part of the education, isn't it? And partly why we're doing this series and grateful. But I also think there's an element of it being experiential. Like coaching, you can't just learn it from a book. Yes, you can get some ideas and get your thinking moving. But actually, it's a doing thing. It reminds me it's a long time ago. You'll appreciate. But when I had my daughter, I diligently read all the books on child development and baby development. And, you know, she did everything in the wrong order. How dare she not read the book? Well, I did think of leaving it at the bottom of the cup, just so that she could get the message. I do think life's like that. This is what this is, but it's averages we talk about and hands up if you're average. As we wrap up any aspects of supervision that we haven't talked about that you think is important or any sort of final words. If your supervisor doesn't love supervision, go find somebody else. Yes. If they're going through the motions, if they're not exciting, but they don't love it. I think that's the biggest thing for me is I love being on that journey with people and being that person that is there as backup. When we talked about this recently about do you need to like your supervisor? Do you need to like your supervisor? Is it like or respect? And for me personally, I want to work with people I like. More importantly that I want to work with people I care about. And that's just how I want to be. I don't get switched on two minutes before a call and then switched off afterwards. I'm in it there with them. I want to be rooting for them. Yeah. It's cheerleading isn't it? I was talking about it. Yeah. Cheerleading with a velvet boot. Oh, that too. That's it. You've got to have the velvet boot. Actually, we haven't talked about much, but my role is and so sure as a supervisor is to challenge as well as support to question, to get people to think about what they're doing and reflect with that best interest of them at heart doing so. I often say I'm supportive in challenging any core measure. And I don't think you can have one without the other. I'm making a little sign here of the in Yang really. They go together for me. If I'm supportive without challenging, I'm probably just nice. Well, and other people can do that. You know, I think people can find elsewhere. I agree with you, but I don't think I'm always equal because it also slightly depends on how somebody shows up. You know, sometimes people need more support in one session. It's equity not equality. Yeah, exactly. But they need, but I over time, both of these are available. What do you need? What do you need today? It's a classic question in supervision, isn't it? No, you have to. Somebody tells you their story and then you ask them, how can I help you? What do you need from me today? What do you need from me in supervision? So people are responsible for asking for what they want? The other question that goes alongside that people don't necessarily ask themselves is, what do I need from myself? And that's a useful question, I think, to be thinking about when you go into supervision so that you get the most out of it because again, it's an investment both of time and money. And you like me want people to get the most out of it. And they often don't know. They want to know that they want to bring something to supervision, but may not know what they want until they start talking. Yeah. What a joy, Marie. We could have carried on talking for hours, I'm sure. But thank you so, so much for your time and your wisdom. How can people get in touch with you and you do offer supervision training as well as being a supervisor? So what's the best way for people to find you? If people want to chat to me and talk to me about anything that we've covered here or just generally, best way is just to email me. And that's Marie at thebeonpartnership.co.uk. Brilliant. And I'd be delighted to hear from people. We will put those links in so that they're on the podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you, Helen. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for listening to another podcast by the Association for Coaching. 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