What Stablecoins Actually Fix in Cross-Border Payments w/ Rowland Berry (Payoneer)

Off-famps are not solved and then everyone that probably comes on here talks about that right but for us that last mile delivery It is where utility can be unlocked today We built this like huge network for 20 years all around the world to deliver money into these markets I like connect that up to the stablecoin infrastructure and wallets today to really unlock out scale that value Why is this so hard to solve and why is it not solved yet? Happy flow everything's great, but actually some of those unhappy flows are really painful How do you guys like think about just like the market evolving? Right now there's a load of businesses creating really cool stuff But I still feel that some of it's optimizing for stuff that doesn't deliver customer value When we look at most of the businesses on our platform most of these early conversations we're having is I want trust I want a simple solution that integrates with all the other workflows that I have as a business user What are the key things that need to happen? User personal, not investment advice This is Money Code It's a show where we decode stablecoins and agentic finance I'm Chuck Ocupaligo and I'm Raj Park and today we're joined by Roland Berry VP of Strategic Partnerships at Painier Welcome Roland Let's jump in I think it's there's been a series of really interesting announcements from Painier One you guys partner with Bridge to launch stablecoin capabilities You guys also filed for your OCC charter to issue your own stablecoin which is really big as well Two massive moves What's driving the urgency and what are you seeing change in the payments that are capable? Thank you for having me on the show Agency is an interesting question I think we've been looking from the sidelines at the space for a while I think if you look at Painier we're a cross-border payments platform We have nearly two million small businesses on the platform We're heavily regulated in many markets around the world We've been really excited by the innovation that's been coming through We truly believe that stablecoin will drive material upgrades to some of the technology and infrastructure in the space But there's some real meeting questions around how do we actually unlock value for end users? That's for me that's small businesses on the platform How do I do that in a compliant way, in a trusted way? Really our vision is that we can make the stablecoin benefits into operable with fear So obviously genius last year was a big unlock like everyone in the space has been referencing I think also looking at the maturity of some of the providers you mentioned bridge We spent sort of a good 18 months in the space talking to as many people as possible Trying to really like validate what is noise, what is exciting innovation and optimization for something that is going to drive value And what is it nice to have And so I think a couple of unlocks have helped us actually materially move this forward, both in the regulatory clarity And in the technology and maturity of players in the space that we could actually launch a product Right and just you mentioned a few things there Particularly in terms of trying to figure out what actually moves the needle for customers Maybe we can just start explaining to folks how pay-in-a-works like what it does, who the customers are That you're thinking about this innovation from Of course, so if we look at pay-in-a-today we have as I said two million businesses on the platform These SMBs typically in emerging markets We're helping them collect their earnings, their funds from wherever they might be selling Typically a lot of that's in USD They're holding those funds in our platform, they're able to access essentially an operating system for other financial services inside that platform Whether that be from working capital, card products, contract and management solutions etc And then we're allowing those businesses to essentially off-fam from our own platform through local rails We spend sort of 20 years building infrastructure and a lot of these like high friction markets and corridors We're serving essentially a segment that's typically been underserved by some of the larger banks in these markets And that giving them access to sort of dollar So a lot of that has high synergy, resonation with a lot of the stablecoin proposition Today we kind of transact about 90 billion dollars across the platform at any one point in time there's around 7 billion in customer funds that sit there And so we are very beholden to the compliance infrastructure We're very very focused on all of the operational flows, all of the sort of trust and regulatory management As well as actually ensuring a customer gets value at the end of the day And really this is kind of the exciting part here so customers for us Typically care about can they get paid quickly? How much is it going to cost them? Does it integrate into their business workflows? And these are some of the bits that we're trying to bridge now with the stablecoin infrastructure Yeah I mean it's interesting to say that the game at the scale also a painier I mean if you go down the list and you look at some of the logos that you guys work with Right I still remember like the time that I attempted to be an Airbnb host and like seeing one of the options where We're paying here also so it's not like you know you guys are only working with SMBs but these are like large Marketplaces and enterprises also Maybe if you can just walk through just like what is you know what is that transaction look like I mean and maybe describe you know what you know if You mentioned all you know 100 is like 190 plus countries There's there's all these different corridors and these local markets Did you guys have built connectivity to the local You know regulation or banks have been quite tapped into the global economy yet Like maybe just like walk us through like the complexity of this like the sort of cooperation to so happy to if you look at the platform You're alluded to Airbnb and then there's a few other sort of marketplaces that we help help them So she distribute their funds to their suppliers and sellers around the world If you invest that obviously their small businesses that we're serving are able to collect their earnings and things from that platform What sits underneath all of those relationships as you implied is the infrastructure And so whether that be the licensing in the US and the the regulatory footprint we've been building and acquiring in other markets That is like paramount to have the confidence of a platform like an Airbnb or an eBay On the other hand in terms of building local market connectivity It is a couple of things right there's a trust factor There's deep knowledge of how these payment systems work Not every payment is the same if we're sending a third party flow versus a first party flow If the source of funds is a certain type of source of funds different routes essentially are available So underneath our infrastructure we've had to kind of abstract away that complexity across the platform In a lot of these markets at scale I wouldn't say everything is super simple But I think like when we look at stablecoin and how we've been thinking about the integration of the two Actually how you run a payment operations business. How do you manage RFIs? What do you do with returns? Like this is what it's taken us years and years to build that scale for the fair world And these are a lot of the questions that we had when we were looking at partners providers' solutions in the digital asset space Can you break down then what of all the things you looked at Did you see the most potential for stablecoins? And maybe it'll be helpful to set the scene for folks by kind of talking through P&S business model Obviously you facilitate cross-border business and I think when people talk about cross-border That's where stablecoin comes in to make those things More easier to facilitate But how does it work from a business perspective and looking through the the the past you mentioned You know returns and customer service and then also compliance I'm sure like you kind of did a list of this is where stablecoins help This is where it's just all hype we'd love to learn more how you Came to the conclusions you did If we look at the business model for a second and then I can unpack kind of how we ended up choosing partners or success criteria I think if you look at us today as I said we're a payments business as a platform On top of that we've essentially built an application layer a financial operating system for these small businesses We started obviously at the beginning with moving payments. How do we make it faster cheaper around the world? There's obviously a transactional component to how we generate revenue through that Then as we've added in new products and services we've obviously moved towards more of a cross-selling motion As we look at more of this operating system of services When we think of stablecoin, I think a couple of the North stars that are interesting to us One is on that infrastructure perspective. Can I improve the cost to serve inside of my own money movement network? And we've started looking at some projects that I think the second bit is utility and so We spend a lot of time interviewing customers in different markets These are think of a marketing agency in Brazil and e-commerce seller in Hong Kong a Web development shop in Ukraine. We spend a lot of time with these businesses understanding Why or one do they use their coins today? They know what it is. I think there we sort of saw some that are very crypto native Others that are curious and maybe fast followers, but there's definitely a trust issue there And but when we start to look at these businesses and what is important to them One of the biggest things that our view is is another effects well to some extent right you think of like APMs or other platforms I have customers that need it because they're trading partner or their supplier is essentially demanding it They don't necessarily want to be using these products, but to them it's just a necessity of a B2B business trade I think there are others that When we launched a wait list earlier this year and I can talk a little bit around like our product and strategy But when we launch the wait list a lot of the early conversations were Oh, hey, this thing is kind of like sounds great, but will it get cheaper payments or oh, hey great is it true? It will take seconds and This is kind of where we're spending a lot of time right now and as you alluded to It's not a silver bullet certain corridors are better than others I think a lot of what our thesis is around is really like off-famps are not solved and then everyone that probably comes on here talks about that right but for us that last mile delivery it is where utility can be unlocked today and so we're spending a lot of time thinking about we built this like huge network for 20 years all around the world to deliver money into these markets how do I connect that up to the stablecoin infrastructure and wallets today to really unlock out scale that value and I think that's one of the really exciting short term like pieces for us when we think about our business model longer term yes I think who knows where this unlocks new business models new revenue streams I'm sure there's a post everywhere around kind of all the product innovation but I think we need to get good at the basics first have it fully integrated into customer workflows into the product suite that we deliver whether that's card whether that's some of these other services and then we can start looking towards some of these kind of more niche and interesting innovations yeah that makes sense so you've got the internal kind of treasury money movement operations and then obviously the customer demand many of them will be using stablecoins or want to use stablecoins in their business and then there's lots of other use cases that may come about in the future you mentioned on off ramps and the challenge that exists there can you just go into bit into going to that a bit what is the problem and why is it so hard to solve and why is it not solved yet I think it's a big topic and we'll give it two cents on it right same I think when we look at some of these markets obviously every market is different I think from a regulatory perspective the operators that are in a lot of these markets are basically under very different regimes and clearly stablecoin regulation is coming and giving greater rules to play by but it's still not equal everywhere and I think one of the biggest roles that we've spent a lot of time with our own network over time is talking about source of funds like where has that money come from what is the reason that it's transacting through and providers have different appetites for those floats just because you say one market works it doesn't necessarily work for everything I think when we look at digital assets this is definitely in the gray area where a lot of businesses are unsure on how to treat it deal with their comfort around it we've seen obviously some networks come online but I think they're still struggling a lot with how they drive that into probability I think what's exciting for us when we look at trying to unlock this is that we've built trust and relationship with a lot of these last mile banks and PSPs that we leverage today we run a lot of the kind of compliance and monitoring systems internally around who those customers are the behaviors of those customers and as we look at how we're leveraging stablecoin is actually basically to augment the current business flows that we see today I'm still going to help a Columbia and marketing agency collect their earnings in the US and pay for Google ads on their card I'm just introducing essentially a new infrastructure or currency rail into that dynamic but these are still businesses that I know that I trust that I've onboarded and so as we look at that there's a huge component in how we think about those last mile routes that we're excited to unlock I think the second question is liquidity and obviously the pre-funded model has been around a long time when you're operating at scale clearly there are benefits and ways of managing that but some of those like long so some of those really long-tailed markets can be very challenging and today for stablecoin liquidity there's still not a lot of liquidity to move from some assets into local market and ultimately that small business wants to go and do something in the real world with their asset they want to go pay for whatever it might be their meal at the end of the day or their clothing or their business suppliers and I think for us that's the kind of like constant friction that we're trying to manage as we look at scaling our product yeah I think what I love about the entire I think process of you know what you guys have done here at pain here rolling is that you guys evaluate everything from first principles it's not like let's just go rush to this whole stablecoin bit let's like actually take a step back let's evaluate let's talk to our customers let's let's talk to the end users that are receiving these payments also and then from there like you guys have obviously built this established network and on this infrastructure on the ground across all these different markets like how does all this tie-in together and and I think that's where you're really just unpacking like what's the problem that we haven't solved fully today even though like you guys have been doing this for 20 years it's like payments is so deep liquidity is not not just you know throw a bunch of engineers at it and go figure it out it's something that you have to like really develop over time so like good as to you guys we're just taking like a first principles point of view on just like how to you know come into this but you know I think what the area that I'm like really curious about is that there's a business model for pain here today you guys have made you know billions of dollars on and you guys have been doing this for many years there's like a business model in the future now with with stablecoins kind of packed into it too and you've kind of talked about hey we're gonna layer in like all these rails we're gonna be agnostic of all of them today doesn't matter whether it's stablecoins or fiat like maybe to subscribe just like one the existing business model for pain here and then like what do you what do you guys look into accomplished with stablecoins is a good new model in the future? I appreciate that it's been a journey on entering a space I think as I alluded to and we can talk through how we are sort of sequencing even now how we continue to to enter because we've made some announcements but there's definitely a journey inside of that as we look to find real value for these small businesses that we serve and some of the platforms and when we look at the kind of impact on model today it's not that we're thinking it's stablecoin or necessarily unlock a new model like let's let's see where we go over time but I think today we're really excited about how it all ments what we deliver for small businesses in these markets and what I mean by that right so these customers are looking for benefits and speed and cost and currency we believe that we can deliver that through upgrading some of the infrastructure in a trusted and compliant way obviously that helps us in some segments penetrate deeper into more crypto native businesses now that look a lot like the customers we already work with so perhaps a newer marketing agency has started day one in stablecoins they're happy managing their own treasury in stablecoins we want to be able to serve them in the same way that we serve other businesses with the same business models today for us it's still very important as we continue to build out this financial operating system for small businesses that we have the ability to deliver essentially that receive hold and send in the asset of their choice I think I can talk a little bit about how the bank helps us unlock that and the trust charter we've applied for but as we look to the future the business model is not one that we're changing or doing something different it is actually an evolution of the infrastructure we've built in the same segments that we're seeing good stablecoin promise and perhaps we should talk a little bit about where that is and but we see as an accelerant as a as a really interesting innovations of some of the older technology yeah let's talk about that what of the many stablecoin promises that are often over hyped do you find to be reasonable and rational as you apply them to your business so look like when we when we think about our strategy and our approach we we launched with Bridges started the year part of that was clearly time to market we are leveraging their infrastructure their licenses etc we still do a lot in terms of kerosene and for now but really no start there was product out in the market inside our ecosystem distribution is obviously so vital here but given this is an infrastructure that we're talking about the value that it might deliver in Latin America to a small business is very different to what it would offer perhaps in a park or in Europe and so for us we wanted to be able to get something out in front of customers have real contact and actually get down into the weeds of where this is unlocking something real and it's an interesting conversation right so yesterday I spent some time with customers some of its perception right like I could use fear for what they're talking about but actually they once stablecoin I don't think I need to be right or wrong in that conversation I just need to give them what they want and how they want it so that's been a really interesting kind of learning curve I think in other markets we are seeing some speed benefits for sure I would say speed in terms of getting receivables into that wallet holding most funds I think there's still a big question over what the speed looked like when I wanted to withdraw those from the digital asset ecosystem so as we work to unlock more off-ramps we still have those challenges around what does it look like when you I can remove some correspondence in that flow but if I'm leveraging liquidity partners if I need to offer providers because it's a name business transaction and I need to connect to a local scheme I still have some of this latency in the flow today and this is us trying to use stablecoin infrastructure in the current model cost let's see I think it's some corridors it could be very interesting and exciting in other spaces perhaps less so I think let us see as there's more scale and volume in the space what that comes to okay and so the answer is it depends right and I think the the clearest one you mentioned so far is hey there's a set of customers that look like the customers that we already have and know how to umbode who want or who are already more crypto native we can now unbode them so that's like a net new business and then on and all the other kind of key selling points for stablecoins cheaper or faster the answer as well sometimes it is sometimes it isn't it is if you keep things on chain we still figuring out the on-off ramp to make things off chain and so I think it's really helpful to hear you know from someone who's like fully into the space really thinking about how to build the sun top of the existing infrastructure that hey it's it's not a I mean we know it's not a silver bullet but the nuances of where this is helpful and where it may go It's helpful. You mentioned bridge, oh, yeah, go ahead. - Yeah, one thing. I think you brought up there, right? Like, one of the biggest feedbacks that we've seen, if anybody can think of paying it, we're dealing with businesses. So this is like their business earnings, these are funds that they're running a business most of the time. They don't have big finance functions. They're some of them are more tech savvy than others. They don't want to manage multiple different systems. They don't want to go and deal with an exchange. They don't want to worry about managing keys and the security impacts. Yes, there was a subset of those early adopters that are there and fully native, and that's really exciting, really great. But actually, when we look at most of the businesses on our platform, most of these early conversations we're having is, I want trust. I want a simple solution that integrates with all the other workflows that I have as a business user. I don't want to have to be managing like all these stuff and accounts on different platforms. I want to be able to manage their accounting, the tax, I want to get paid, pay my contractors, pay my suppliers. And I know it's not super sexy for this audience necessarily, but that's a reality, right? Like these guys and girls are running companies. And so I think for us that North Star is, how do I abstract a complexity and deliver the trust? To speed these other intrinsic benefits are great, but it still has to deliver up as an end user benefit. It's such an interesting point that you're making here because you're a spend that I've been thinking about a little bit more is that payments is like a risk management function for a lot of businesses. It's like non-core, it's like a marketplace is, their goal is to have the best supply and demand, beautiful e-commerce experience. And they're like, damn, I have to get paid also, or I have to pay out this host or this creator, this designer, whoever that might be. And they just spend so much time building up this core product. And now you're asking them to go build out this FX engine or these payouts operations also. So this is where, for them, it's like, this is just like a risk management function. I just need to trust someone that can take care of this for me. And then for you guys, I think you guys that have the opportunity to say, hey, we can take this load off of you from risk management standpoint, but also now we can innovate and we can add new things to make it even faster, cheaper, whatever that might be, and lucky more core doors also. So it feels like you kind of hit it nicely and something that I've been thinking about quite a bit is like, this thinking of payments being risk management versus like actual innovation component also. - I think that's an exciting bit. Like there is innovation for definitely real benefits, exciting to see how it goes. But ultimately, if we look like three to five years out, some of this stuff really needs to become, no, even discussed anymore, right? Like if it becomes fully interoperable, it needs to be in the workflows. It needs to be managed in the operational flows that we have. Yes, they may get improved. Yes, they may be more efficient. And that is really exciting when you're running a payments business. But our customers are not thinking like that. If I can improve the way in which I handle a lot of that back office payment functionality, that's an amazing value that I can do over to customers. But that's what we mean by utility. Like how do I actually unlock value for those end users? - Yeah, I want to come on to the bridge partnership and also the OCC Trust. But you did mention something there that I wanted to dig into, which is, payments is operations, the businesses are trying to run their business. You want to make it as streamlined as possible and abstract things away. For that, you need to be able to automate a lot of the infrastructure. So we talk about programmability a lot with stable guns. We didn't quite mention that today, but I thought that now might be a good time when you're looking at the infrastructure and some of the other benefits. Do you look at it also from a lens of, "Hey, well, it may not be cheaper, it may not be faster, but we can automate it more." And therefore achieve our goal of extracting this for our businesses and therefore becoming more of a financial operating system. Did that come up much when you were thinking through the implementations? - Say, Payne and General has a lot of efforts as you'd imagine looking at kind of automations, AI applications, and both from the internal process, but also from how you can build customer-facing products. I think when we looked at stablecoin, inherently, they're interesting conversations to have. I think understanding where those have become real-world use cases that we can benefit from is still being developed. I think our North Star was, how do we get core value to customers? How do I unlock some of the promised value of stablecoin in a trusted, compliant way? How do I think about it as scale and solve interoperability? I think actually a lot of the mid office back office flows that we have today for fear processes, as they are improving, becoming more automated, et cetera, that convergence is super interesting. But I think our North Star, when we were looking at the space, was what is the value that this delivers either to internal users or to customers? How do I do it in a trusted, compliant way at scale? Believing that there will be convergence in obviously the different approaches to technology and assets over time anyway. So it was quite clear, but it definitely wasn't like one of the North Star's when we were working on that. - Maybe something for the future. Okay, so the bridge partnership and then the trust. So maybe you can talk about those two things. You know, what drove it? How do you think about it? And what is it going to unlock? - Yeah, so as I said, we spent quite a lot of time looking at the space, tracking the space, looking at opportunities. We started with the bridge partnership. We were super excited to get that out at the start of the year. For us, that was an essence of getting speed in the market, choosing someone with pedigree and B2B in payments that we can start learning from customers. Like where is value, where is product market fair, where does this deliver actual benefits? How do I get people inside? Paying it, learning from some of the innovation, the data, the way in which these systems work, and the quickest way for us to sort of get out into market was obviously choosing a partner such as bridge. I think as we look to the next kind of iterations of that, one I kind of mentioned a little bit is how do we connect our infrastructure today. So all of those off-frams we have around the world are compliance, all of these systems, obviously, we want to have full-intopability as our vision here. And so we've already started on that process trying to unlock that for customers. When we come to the bank charter, we filed for the trust application, and I view really there, we're very excited about that for a couple of reasons. One, it gives regulatory clarity. It's a higher grade, probably, of how we can deliver that trusted and compliant solution to our businesses. And so that, again, going back to where we started from on those first principles is how do we do this in the most robust, secure, trusted way. The second piece was how do we actually think about our system, actually? So when we look at traceability, we look at source of funds, we're managing downstream, moving money into our last mile providers inside our own network, having that level of regulatory prowess really makes a difference when we think about the network. Obviously, what the bank will allow us to do is that we will issue a token. Today, if you think about it, a customer-- let's take it-- the customer was using in Colombia. The agency receives money. They come in and say, dollar, they hold dollar inside their pay-in-account, and then they withdraw it. That's what happens today. They hold a liability against pay-in-year under current licenses. Actually, we think about that the bank enabling us to really act in a very similar way with an upgrade to the way in which we run that infrastructure and regulatory footprint. So that customer, we would issue a token essentially into a pay-in-year coin into their wallet. When they're logging into their pay-in-year platform, they will see essentially at rest a liability against pay-in-year, pay-in-year bank. And when they want to offer an app, we will essentially remove that back to whatever the currency or the asset is that they take off the platform. So we were super excited by that. The bank will also help us do custody. And I think this is an interesting conversation when you go through this journey. The approach of turnkey, everything in a box, sort of on one extreme, to the other one of rebuilding one of these entire ecosystems is a pretty wide chasm, right? And so we've started on one side for some very kind of straightforward reasons. As we go forward, we're not looking to bring everything in house, but there are some clear benefits to bringing in parts of that stack. And really, for us, again, that's around that compliance, is around that control and having that into operability across the network. So today, if you're a customer of pay-in-year, you can log into your account, obviously, passing eligibility and everything. You'll see today already stable quiet and capabilities powered by bridge sitting there ready to use. Over time, we will augment and scale that solution. And we believe that the bank is a critical part of driving that. Great. And the OCC, you mentioned-- Yes, it strengthens the regulatory story as well. But once the Genius Act rules actually go into effect, that essentially means the balance that is being held in the pay-in-est stable coin are actually stronger than the current way the balance is held today, right? Because it'll be essentially one-to-one back and to rather than a liability against a company that's holding balances against the back. Is that accurate? I think what's different when we think about the coin, right? So actually, their pay-in-year will be managing the composition of the reserves. Obviously, following where Genius ends up, but in a Genius compliant way, those reserves will be spread across whatever assets and provisions. Similar models, but I think there's obviously an upgrade in some of their requirements and how you manage the reporting, how you think about security, control, et cetera, around the bank. But I think one of the key things to look at is, if you think of paying it today, we operate a very heavily licensed business in many markets including China with our acquisition last year. And so for us, actually, this is kind of an evolution of that journey. We're familiar running large KYC KYB programs in many, many markets around the world. We run a very complex, ecantical structure today. So for us, it's actually an exciting kind of evolution of that model. It's not that this is something totally different and replacing an existing system. Fair. That makes sense. And then you mentioned reserve management and reserve composition. I think that's always interesting when many firms are asking themselves the same question. Do we issue our own stablecoin? Yes, there's the brand benefits. There's always other things that we mentioned that maybe you could describe how you think about it. I think maybe some folks will ask about, do you have better control of the yield? But I think, oh, at your size, you already had pretty good control of the yield with your bank partners. And so what are the kind of the pros and cons of managing your own reserves with your own issued stablecoins? Yeah. It's been, well, talking to the players in the market, you have very interesting conversations about yield. I think for us, look, our revenue model is a transactional model today. Yes, there is yield in the network. We publicly discuss what we make, right? I think one of the key bits to us is that we want, as the issue of record, and how those smart contracts are governed and built, the control that's like laid in, that's critical to us. Running a program like this to optimize on yield is not the North Star. For us, it's basically, we believe that the bank is a robust platform to deliver the capability to those small businesses for utility. So everything I mention on off-ramps, everything I mention around custody and compliance. When you look at the kind of different models, whether it's white labeling, whether it's taking some very an off and buying software and services, I think, again, maybe you guys are close to this, but like our conversation is in the market. It's still very much evolving. What is available, what are the models, how much control do I retain, of what do I retain, versus how much do I outsource, do I create key dependencies? I think these are some really interesting questions. And certainly one that's we find kind of evolving. The second one, which is kind of also really interesting from our seed, is like, how do you tie in essentially this digital asset stack, so that all of the reserve capabilities, the burn-min processes, where all of the fear led during, all of the control led that sits on top of there, how do you think about the ability now to move to kind of real-time systems for thinking about the data across essentially both stacks? To ask there really some fundamental questions that are kind of top of mind right now, as we look towards that issuance model. And I, as I mentioned earlier, can you just describe, this is a fully self-owned kind of issuance infrastructure, or are you partnering with folks first and part of it? Yes, for us, the trust charter will be a combination of different providers and partners. I think kind of as I started off with, the parts of the stack that we definitely don't need to control, like, "Han, sorry, I don't need to own, right?" And so for us, we should take best-in-class providers for certain components of that capability. There are some pieces that we will either buy as a service internally, or connect up to you internally. I think for us, it's not that we want to become a stablecoin issuer, this is what our model is today, is that this coin will be closed loop. We're essentially viewing it as a iteration of how we come to present customer funds. And so today, the approach is really leverage best-in-market partners in the most compliant way with our requirements under the ruling. Yeah, that's right. I mean, there's so many different parts of the stack and your point, it's like the custody, there's the integration with the leisure, the treasury, the recon, the smart contracts itself. These aren't like, and if you look out to the market, there isn't like a, they silver a bullet, like, one stop shop, where I can take everything and then start using it as well. And also, like, every use case is fundamentally different. And how you guys and your incentives and your goals around the stablecoin are obviously varied from, like, what's out of the box, too. So it makes a ton of sense to just, like, evaluate it, you know, fully before kind of jumping in as well. But maybe describe just like, how you also want to just present the, you know, pay or USD, like, we've talked a lot about abstraction, you know, away from like the end, users, the businesses. There's obviously like an in-bison internal, like, treasury recon part of it. But like, do you guys care for this to be like a branded, you know, stablecoin in the future where everyone actually references it that way, even though it's maybe just underneath the hood, or is it, you know, like, hey, this is just like a simply another rail, like, we don't really care much about it, you know, outside of that as well. So I think if you think of a model, right, so back to that fun, flow, I've always seen to think in fun flows. So let's say external stablecoins or fit, wherever it might be coming in as your accounts receivable as that small business. Obviously, from our position, we want to enable as many as possible, that are compliant, that we can sort of manage the risk on, but like for our customers, they need to get paid. So there's whatever is external facing, whether that's one of the larger coins, wherever it might be. There's then that currency when it sits at rest. And so if you think of our business today, a lot of customers are using USD to sit at rest. We allow them to have USD balances on the platform, whatever market they're already sitting in today. And so we think very similarly about how we would look towards that pay-o token, pay-o USD, whatever it might be. And so again, when the customers sitting at rest, they log into their platform, they look at their balances. We'd expect them to be seeing a balance there, which is that pay-o token that we're issuing. When they take the money off the platform, so when they want to pay some suppliers, or they want to, essentially we pay trade those funds back to their home country. Obviously we then have to solve for this off-ramping piece, connect through down into the last mile network. And there again, the pay-o coin would essentially be burned or redeemed, and we would push money out of the platform. So as we look at it, actually, that's a very similar behavior to exactly how we serve those customers today. And fear, we believe that the pay-o coin has a lot of benefits inside that model for us when we think about traceability, liquidity, the ability to move funds across that end to end chain with more speed and efficiency. Yeah, that makes a mix of tons of sense. I mean, it's going to be interesting to see how this plays out, where we have. There's an interesting, I think, change in evolution in the overall payment space. You have the so-fi, the stripes, the pay-piles, and these are all different organizations across the board that are now exploring this stable coin bit. I mean, I'm curious just like for you guys, how do you guys think about the market evolving, especially across some of these other players also? And then some folks who are adopting stable coins, some are issuing. What curious at your point of view when you see the market expand like this, too? Yeah, it's my interesting time. I was talking to Chuck a bit about the time trying to choose providers and partners and understand what are real solutions, what are growing solutions, even when we look at more adoption now by larger players as they move into the space? The use cases are so different, right? Like so many people have different use cases to solve for in different markets for different segments. And so I've been laser-focused really on those B2B like flows, right? The marketplace payouts, the small business collects and send, and how you see that evolving in these markets. It's interesting to see how it brings in new competitors. It allows larger businesses to innovate. I think still to me when I look a bit further out, right now there's a load of businesses creating really cool stuff, but I still feel that some of it's optimizing for stuff that doesn't deliver customer value, at least for the segments that we focus on. And maybe that's just because I'm focused on solving some of those fundamentals right now, and these other things will come. I think, look, validation's happening, right? There's like large transactions, there's things happening in the space which is super exciting, but it still comes down to like how will these services and solutions and providers embed into existing workflows, into operations processes, into those compliance conversations, in the kind of easiest way possible almost. And I think that's still for me, like one of the big questions, it's really exciting to see how these businesses are maturing, and it's great to partner with them as they do so. But it's still something in the fit world that's super painful, and it takes a lot of time and effort, and I think in this world that'll be the same. And I'd be excited to see how we go. Yeah, and so it seems like the market's still developing. Maybe the news headlines are a bit ahead of where the actual market operations are. If you were to kind of summarize what are the key things that need to happen, would you put it more into the category of well-incompanions needs to just start upgrading their tech stocks so that the end users get all these things in a compliant way where they already shop, or is it regulation, more liquidity, what are the kind of the key things that will shift the reality closer to where the headlines are? Great question. Wish I knew the answer. But I think like from us, like regulation is one thing. So I think we've seen maturity, more clarity coming through, and pieces are coming to play. I still think that's a journey, right? And you read any blog and anything like everyone holds a view on this. It's definitely becoming perhaps what was the differentiator to moving towards table stakes over time. So how are you going to license these flows? How are you going to think about different jurisdictions? Certainly when you're at pay-in-air, we do a lot of work in these interesting trade corridors where different sites of those trades may be representing very different approaches to regulation. And so looking at that from a global perspective for us is actually like a big unlock as different places come online. I think the second unlock is, again, yn ymwch i'n gael ei'r gael ei bod yn gael ei ffyrddio, ac yn ymwch i'r gael ei ffyrddio, ac yn ymwch i'r gael ei ffyrddio. Ymwch i'r gael ei ffyrddio. un oes mwy ddeen, fyng amboneu jejis i'n besok i mam, da'r cw labswagause bobl o mynd o â fydd ymwy floralg? Ly karma? Rhifenieth 줄 Celebrities â'r castletaeddol a' chuna fo a'r 'Mystates' Dolbyn a'r oedd bod Edith nes cyfr onen i'w harm a'r y csefon greynid y peronys fresh unseen yw'r cwyryd o gyn Sandblwyd. theys ym yn i ddaiddor Shallag eu cymend enwf push naar et должен ast yn y beth ik deill. 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