What Separates the Irish Companies That Land Well in the US with Michael O'Loughlin

The United States does something to a company that is successful somewhere else and what it does is it will amplify strengths really quickly but it will do the same thing for weaknesses really quickly and whereas you might be you know a big fish in a small pond at home in the United States it's your operational execution you'll be stretched in a way that you haven't been stretched before so your hiring is very important to target operating model the boring stuff really what's underneath really matters you know it's less of a geographical problem does the bit that everyone seems to think it's where do I set up and get licensed where do I put the office it's more of an execution problem welcome to the Digital Irish podcast where innovation meets heritage and global impact is the name of the game I'm Dave Burns your host on this journey through the stories of Irish innovators entrepreneurs and creators who are having an incredible mark on the world stage we're here to showcase the incredible talent that Irish visionaries bring to the world welcome back to the Digital Irish podcast today's guest has one of my favorite career paths I've come across as I've been interviewing people my clothe locklin is a managing partner at aeronautic ventures global he's focused on AI, Fintech, Emerging Technology that they spend a lot of time looking at small language models but over the past two decades he's worked across banking payments regulations central banking venture capital with stops in Ireland Europe the Middle East the United States so he's really seen everything and before his current role he served as chief advisor to the deputy governor at the Saudi Central Bank and strategic advisor to Fintech Saudi so he's seen what it looks like to build a Fintech ecosystem from the ground up at a government level as well he's stayed very closely connected to the Irish tech community here in the US and also he's back in Ireland quite frequently and through his work with blockchain Ireland so I thought he would be a fantastic person to talk to as we go through this demystifying capital and BC series so today we're going to get into the stuff that matters most for founders thinking about the US and global moves in the particular namely when to make the move how to walk into an investor meeting prepared and what actually separates companies that land well from ones that don't so I hope you enjoy this episode and with that I'm going to drop you straight in it you're working in investments and you're based in Rochester New York but you've had quite a journey to get to Rochester and could you take us through what that journey looked like from Ireland to where you are today? Well I'm not sure this is a long form podcast but I guess we can begin yeah sure first of all good to be here and I do enjoy what digital Irish are doing I think it's an important platform for startups investors and even government officials to understand how to keep your finger on the pulse around the world for Irish Irish entrepreneurs but also you know startups but also people wishing to move capital and get access to capital so I think it's good it's good to have a platform like this myself let's see yeah I grew up in county Claire and Ennis and since then I've been on a magical mystery tour of the world I've always been curious and I've always had a passport from an early age so I guess how did I get to where I am today now I'm a that's my title a managing partner in a venture capital for which is a sentence I never thought I'd say but I've kind of come to venture backwards and what I mean by backwards is I've kind of come through banking regulation payments central banking infrastructure and pepper in the middle of that is kind of some of that startup theater and geographically yeah I've worked in Ireland the UK Belgium Germany Saudi Arabia Dubai San Francisco New York yeah all over really and why Rochester really my in-laws live here and my I've three daughters and my wife is from here it's three daughters we wanted them to grow up around family and this is you know Rochester wasn't on my bucket list certainly but it's it's could be going part of our DNA is the allocking family over here we're still known as the token Irish family here but we feel we're very much part of the community now it's I grew up in the countryside as I said we have lived in big cities as a family but this kind of well it's not quite in the countryside it's very much the leafy suburbs with access to national parks and things like that which is I think is important as the kid you know yeah I mean honestly it's actually a great position to be and I'm kind of similar as well I ended up in Virginia because my wife's family ran here but it's a lovely position to be enough to being around the world to actually then be able to settle somewhere where your kids can have like a family experience the true family experience you know yeah I mean you know people say to me what are you most grateful for I think I'm grateful for something as simple as the internet you know the reason I say that is having you know watch the internet expand the way it has it's kind of flattened the world geographically you know and if you're you know in any way smart with venture or the movement of capital you don't necessarily need to be in Silicon Valley you can be around the world and be prepared to jump on a flight and I think we're lucky with New York that you can jump on a flight to anywhere really and get there pretty quickly so kind of going to your day to day because you're actually involved in various different types of investing from your own personal investments but also working with a fund itself so could you kind of walk us through all of the different types that you're currently involved with yourself well okay so I left the it's funny it feels like an interrogation rather than a chat okay okay grant yeah so the fund I'm with right now is called Argonotic and there are since since coming up on 10 years founded by Howard Blue and two other folk Rita and Viken and they have a unique thesis they're they're primarily focused since 2016 mind in small language models across AI and that's something that back in 2016 not many people were talking about but they were in early and this when I when I met them for years back I was very much intrigued what they were doing so what am I doing now now I'm working with them on our new fund which is the third fund and in the middle of creating a fourth fund at the moment primarily focused on things I'm more comfortable with like FinTech but also construction tech you know and biotech areas that I've kind of I would describe as if it feels I've gone back to school to learn about the models and kind of kept them at arm's length but when you get to meet and read a million decks and you get to meet entrepreneurs and actually get to meet the people whose industries will be disrupted and you start to see what the real problems are in these areas it just becomes interesting it's like picking up an interesting book you kind of go I want to find out more and I want to turn that page and what we found what we're doing right now is you know we're really working on what we did in fund one and fund two and narrowing it down and we think we've created a well-earned machine now so that's the Argonotic side of life also a consulting business which is really leaning into my colourful journey across regulation and the Middle East so helping companies branch into the Middle East set up in the Middle East get licensed in the Middle East and that's across multiple geographies but primarily the link to Saudi Arabia continues there and also I do an awful lot of work in the areas of I we would describe them as coding edge technologies I guess it's just technologies now so things that have been fascinating with for the past I guess 10, 15 years has been areas around blockchain and AI machine learning and things like that so I do an awful lot of work with governments on upskilling education advisory things like that most recently blockchain Ireland so that connection to Ireland continues actually returning again this month to speak at the National Finance Conference and that would be on kind of looking through two lens the investor lens with the AI focus and then looking at distributed ledger technologies, tokenization on the other side too. So never a dull day and then on the personal investment side, yeah, I'm always on the lookout for what can grow, what's solving a real problem. It's not the exact ends that we use at Argonautic, but it certainly maybe branches beyond and we can discuss that. So how do you keep on top of all of that? That is a lot of things. I love to say I have built out an AI bot of Michael here, but no, I have just a brilliant family around me, to be honest. And what I mean by that is very patient on, you know, what I'm here, I'm here, you know, I have to be in the room and present as a dad, as a husband, things like that. And then just being really clear with calendar management, is the new thing for me, realizing, probably revealing a little bit too much, but that's something that I was not good at in the past. I was good at doing it for myself, but not telling anyone about it. And I think managing expectations, you know, with the kids, but now the kids are getting to the age where they have an awful lot of activities as their own. And I have to kind of slide into their lives and manage my travel around that as well. I want to be at the plays, the theater, the music, the sports, you know, all those things. And, but how do I prioritize things? I think first things first, right now is the fun. And it's a very timely moment for what we're doing. If you'll as if the stars have aligned, so to speak. And that goes just as much for the movement of capital, but also honing in on the right startups, you know. We have a certain filter that we apply. And I think without that filter and that proven logic and the financial models that we have, I wouldn't be. I wouldn't be able to move the way I move, let's just say, in an efficient way. I'd always be trying to think of the new thing. Luckily for me, there's an amazing team in Argonautics that do much of the heavy lifting around the financial models and. making sure that all the companies that we work with, you know, are on a path to profitability quickly. So from that side of things, I'm very much outwardly facing, knowing that there's a team behind of the operational site executing day to day. So grateful for that. And then other than that, the network, you know, even us being on a call, we were introduced, we're on a call. I think that good things come from this type of conversation. I mean, it's funny that this is a podcast. I don't really do podcasts, but I do see the benefit in connecting in with the Irish side of life. It's something I shied away from. If the irony is I started off life working in an Irish-Balban Belgium. And that was in 2002 and coming full circle now, being plugged in, meeting the Irish government and doing work with Enterprise Ireland. I wrote their FinTech report last year. I think for me, they were in privilege to be plugged back in. And also it's a reason to get home, to see my parents and my sister and her family as well. So it's great it that way. - You know, I've said it to people before that the further I actually get away from Ireland, the more I actually find myself gravitating towards it again, I'm trying to plug back in. It has been kind of similar for you that like as you've kind of like grown into your career, you're kind of looking at Ireland on, there's something I can do there. There's something I can offer there and lean in here. - Yeah, initially no, I would say, you know, kind of been running since the age of five, it feels like, but no matter where you run to, someone told me that's where you are. And I wouldn't say, "I realized that I went." Oh yeah, so you can change people places and things, but yeah, Ireland will always have a hold on you. But I think for me, I miss things like Lehench and the sea and the wildness of it all, but I was lucky enough to get all of Christmas meetup with old friends, things like that. My kids, no, my parents, so the no, the grandparents, the no, the cousins, you know. I speak Irish, the Irish language. I just got my membership card there from Conor, Nagoya. So, you know, where my fawn year was prized, things like that. I play Irish music. When I was in Saudi Arabia, one of the things that, I was very grateful for was the Irish community over there, and the ambassador, Jerry Cunningham and his wife, they welcomed me in and asked me to get involved with the K-Leaves and play music. And I didn't think this was, you know, I can't be doing it. I can't be enjoying myself away from my family. But I realized very quickly that the community needs that too. They need that connection to Ireland when you're abroad. And it does kind of, they say, success, breed success, but also, you know, there's something nice about just being authentic and real. And I didn't realize until I went away how good a storyteller an Irish man and woman can be, you know. And now that I'm in the land of, you know, if you make it here, you can make it anywhere, kind of concept here in New York. I will say that the art of storytelling is not lost, but as a result of AI, it's becoming the same. You'll see it in deck, becoming just generic, where it's coming out in the same flow, it's same pattern. And I think that's maybe an edge that we will continue to maintain, which is, and I hope we maintain it for the next generation, which is leaning into humor, you know, leaning into the pain of things. And I think you see it in stand-up comedy. You see it in this type of storytelling, but I think, you know, one thing I tell people is that not to bring it back to work, but it does kind of ring true. Great storytelling. We get you a force meeting with me any day of the week, right? I'm a sucker for it. But I think operational clarity is what gets you the second meeting, you know. And I think that's something that's often getting lost at the moment. You'll see it on LinkedIn and these things. A lot of the noise everyone is going to molding into this slap. That'd be too critical. I've tried it, by the way. I've tried to be lazy and write a lazy LinkedIn post. It's actually difficult to prompt it correctly to make it sound like you, and in the end, you just sound like everyone else. So I think that's an edge that we have. But back to your question, I suppose. Yeah, I do find myself looking at Ireland with great pride on the international stage, you know. I'm not as plugged in on local politics. It's maybe I could be or should be. But I will say on the international stage, you do look at Ireland and, you know, what our principles are, what our values are. And I try and emulate that. Because you realize when you're abroad, whether you're micrallolocking the individual, the dad, the father, the husband, the son, you know, or the company, that you're still an ambassador for your country, you know. And that's something that I don't think every nation has, you know, that weird DNA connection, even when, as you said, you go further away, and I love that. Yeah. I mean, it's true. It's true. Fast, I find it fantastic if I'm honest like it. Because again, I jokingly say to people, I grew a taste for goodness the moment I left Ireland. And because I didn't realize how good I had it when I was in Ireland. Yeah. So, but like, you know, I think another part of it, and like you kind of touched on it there, is like, you know, when you were in, in the Middle East, you know, you had an ambassador there that was like fostering the network. There was K-Lis and like, I feel like that's actually such a unique thing as well for Irish people. Like I've got German and I are German and French friends here in DC. And they're not going to like German networking events or French networking events. But they're like, oh, but like you Irish people seem to have like something on all the time. And so yeah, it's kind of a fine line though, isn't it? Because, and it is something I did shy away from for about 10 years in the middle there. I just decided enough of that because I was on my own journey as well, I guess I gave up booze. And I haven't had a drink now, I think, about 16 years. But so for me, I wanted to leave all the drinks and the after drinks, social stuff and everything for a while and focus on business and things like that. And I realized, probably it took me until Saudi Arabia to plug back in and it was the GAA, something that I always had a love for, grown up and county Claire. They needed some people to just help out with the GAA in Saudi Arabia, you know, this like in the Middle East, I think there's about 6,000 people who play GAA, GAA Games, which is crazy to even think that. But again, there was this magnetism about that community where there's a, I would describe it as like a purity. There's no ulterior motives. There is an Irish business network in Dubai, in Saudi Arabia as well. And they're used as a platform. to width in conjunction with Enterprise Ireland and in conjunction with the local embassies who are fantastic at welcoming Irish firms to come over and then showcasing them to investors or local businesses and then plugging them in. And that's very tangible and real and it's measurable, you know, gets measured, gets done. And I think I didn't realize that an ambassador would have the role of economic growth, you know, and expansion for Ireland until I saw that, you know. I think I know I mentioned the music side of us and the parties and things like that. But I think that's just something to blow off a bit of steam. There's always that angle of building network. I'm still in great contact with those people because at the end of the day, if you're Irish and you're going abroad, there's something in you that is different, I think, right? And you have a drive in you that's slightly different to others. It's not that those who stayed don't have a drive. It just means that their purpose is in Ireland and you do feel, I call it a subtype of responsibility to show what you've learned abroad and bring it back, you know. Years ago, we would call it the '80s, the brain drain. And I think what's being good about Irish governments, recent governments, no political party or anything like that, but is that they've tapped into that, de-ass, they've tapped in like this, you know, and asked for, you know, what is your experience, strength, hope that you can share, you know, what are your lessons learned? Where have you made mistakes? Can you share that with people who are trailblazing, you know, come out to this call, you said to me, you know, how do you know when you're ready to come into the United States as a startup? And that's a tough one, you know, I think, and we can dive into that, but that was one of the things that really stood out as a question just before we jumped on a call was, what is it, you know, and what are the signs that you're ready? So you want to dive into that? Yeah, let's definitely dive into that because I think, you know, I've just come off the back of SelectUSA where we've had like, you know, Ireland sent over its largest cohort ever, and it was ranging from folks that had established business like, mere months ago, right up to folks that were already series B, and it's, it definitely ran the gamut of like, wash company, it was size of company was. So really, is there even an answer to at one point should a Irish company be thinking about the US, you know? Yeah, is there a right time? I think every company is different, right? I think it's like saying, all Irish people are funny, you know, you and I both know that's not the case, you know, but I think you could look at the United States through different lines, you know, it's not looking at like the Beatles and they broke America, you know, always is didn't as I was thinking when I was a teenager, but I do look at it for the point of view, if you know, the United States does something to a company that is successful somewhere else and what it does is it will amplify strengths really quickly, but it'll do the same thing for weaknesses really quickly. And whereas you might be, you know, a big fish in a small pond at home, in the United States, it's your operational execution, you'll be stretched in a way that you haven't been stretched before. So you're hiring is very important, your target operating model, the boring stuff really, what's underneath really matters, you know, it's less of a geographical problem, does the bit that everyone seems to think it's where do I set up and get licensed, where do I put the office, it's more of an execution problem because where your board is, your board needs to be truly global mindset can't and most people start off with friends and family, bootstrapping it, it's not an island mentality, it's just something that happens around the world, it don't think it's unique to Ireland, but one of the things that I hear speaking with people who are deploying capital when they look at many of the newer companies, not unique to Ireland, but newer companies entering the ecosystem here is very much that they look at, pattern matching really quickly. So what that means is they look at seeing what problem they're solving, is that problem here today, how quickly do they solve that problem in let's say Ireland, can they do that here, what's the size of the market, what's the size of the pie will they take, these are very basic questions, but it has to be obvious and I think that's where I was talking about storytelling is important to enter, but once they scratch the surface on what your operation execution is, you do need to be informed and many I think many companies are brought in with advisors, guilty of saying a lot of what I do is advisory work, so I don't want to bite the hand that feeds me, but certainly I do think that an awful lot of people are being given bad advice, when it comes to entering new markets, not limited to the United States, but if I compare Ireland and the US, I was just thinking about this, Ireland is very grounded, very relationship led, as in it's very much heart and mind winning people over its capital efficient, you might disagree with that, but I think it is resilient, and then when you think about the United States, it's all, it really is what people think from the outside looking at me, and being speed scale storytelling belief, you can do anything, disguise the limits, you know, things like that, and I think Irish founders often they learn capital efficiency earlier, just simply because resources are tighter in Ireland, you know, and I think in the US, they just assume that you're ambitious, you know, they assume that you disguise the limits and that your goals are bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, and often because we, and maybe this is no longer the case, maybe under the older generation now, but I do find that we have this, we might be guilty of not dreaming big enough for the United States, you know, meaning we, an accomplishment for a smaller country, breaking America, that's the goal, but American investors want you to be number one in the world, you know, I think it's kind of that that staged approach, so one of the things I always ask is, you know, can you win in your backyard? Now this sounds very basic, right? But can you win in your backyard, meaning can you create a repeatable product, one that's resilient, reliable, and then when you go to America, before you go, can you actually have referenceable clients, not POC clients, but a client that is willing to give you, let's say it's a hundred thousand euro every three months, just something, you just stay, we're willing to pay this because you make us money or you save us money, there needs to be key economics what I mean by that is you need to be able to justify to yourself, to your current investors, to your team, you know, hope that you as the CEO won't be around Ireland, because you got to break America and to do that, to justify that, and this is just again my experience, but to justify that, you need to continue to deliver and not lose a customer in Ireland, so if you have five customers in Ireland and you say we're going to go to America, but all those customers bought from Rachel or Marie or Michael or Sean or whoever the CEO, that person, that person can't be the bottleneck if they leave the country to go over to America, so it's all about capacity planning and, you know, being comfortable in your own skin to know that whoever has the keys will be able to continue to deliver and the word I like to use is to delight because one of the things that as an investor, we noticed that is often lost through no fault of their own, but CEO is often stretched, you know, and once you're stretched, it's difficult to be sticky with a customer. One of the things that you look for in investments is repeatability, and we're now in the age of AI, I'm sure we'll talk about that, but being actually repeatable, sticky with customers, that they will pay you the same if not more next year, that you can upsell them on a product portfolio suite that you have not even released to them yet, but they'll get access to it. That storytelling's got to continue, that account management still got to continue. Meanwhile, if you're just a five-person team, you can still think about America, you know, we have to do it in a way that it's, I like to think it's planned, you know, but I'm guilty of my myself is I would have, when I had a start up, I just got on a plane, you know, and just went to places and knocked on doors and spoke to everyone and came back with a list. None of it was executable because of licensing or regulation or things that I was under the, well, I came from the mindset of, you know, "we'll seek forgiveness and not permission." And that's all well and good. But in financial services, the area I was working in and the countries I was trying to play in in the middle of the East, you don't seek forgiveness, you know. You do it right. You've to know the rules, you play by the rules and then you can be as innovative as you want to the top of that. And it sounds really boring, but this is the stuff that when you're thinking about the United States, I think having some type of operational maturity is needed from the start and that's where, yeah. Is that what you're looking for in that second meeting? Is the proof behind that, like, operational effectiveness? You know, someone asked me that the other day was actually a start if they said in the meeting, you know, "what have we got to do to get the second meeting?" And there was something about the way that I asked. It wasn't a gift of desperation in his voice. It was just like, just tell us, like, "we're here, we're all smart people." You know, like, we can make this happen. I actually admired the honesty and he did get the second meeting. But I think to get the second meeting, you need to have kind of a founder resilience in there, you know. And often that's difficult to identify in a first meeting or even in a deck. I think all decks are just looking the same at the moment. We do one of the things I learned is to be really transparent about what we want, you know, ahead of time, because it speeds up the process, you know. And I'll probably send you a list of 10 questions and you rule yourself out or you go to work and you come back and go, you're all those dancers. And then that can justify it, you know, getting that second meeting. But getting access to capital is, it seems as if it's more difficult now, but I don't think it's more difficult to get access to capital. I think capital is more, there's more expectation on returns at the moment. And this is where I think guidance is needed, some type of compass is needed for startups, not to access the cash, but actually how to use the cash in a manner that is written down in your pitch day. It's like with the money we're going to get, we're going to use it this way. And often one other thing there around data, and a lot of people say, well, if we're a new company, we don't have clients, then how do we justify that we're solving a real problem? That's not my problem. But I hear you're paying, you know, but you can say to us, we spoke to, do your own primary research, we spoke to 47 banks, for example, in the banking side of life. Seven of them said, we have this problem. If the others didn't even answer, of the seven, four of them met us face to face. What I'm saying is, you're building a story of persistence. A lot of people are saying, Accenture said this, and they point to secondary research. But they don't have, they haven't lived it, you know, they haven't gone and looked into people's eyes or made the calls and sent the emails. And, you know, and you can build up a database of persistence. You can build up a database of hearing what people say. Well, I remember when I we were start up a year ago, one of the things that we would find out was, you know, that horrible consulting question you'd often hear, what's keeping you up at night? You'd be surprised how that helps us tweak your product, you know, we realized, I think we need to pivot because the most common thing that's keeping them up at night is earlier in the stage that we're trying to solve the problem. I think we could solve this problem as well. If we did this, it would be like a Trojan horse and get us in the door. And I think, this is almost the, again, what is this? It's storytelling, you know, but to understand what everyone's individual story is, you'll start to find themes and patterns and you start to realize that if a problem is common and not being solved, that's an opportunity, you know. It's interesting the way that you've been talking about founder resilience because I think one thing I often see from startup founders is like they're trying to do tick box exercises when they're creating their deck and they're kind of coming up with their plans to speak to investors. But like what you're talking about there is almost like this like intangible like, hey, I want to see a drive and a determination from you that shows that you truly understand the challenge that you've gone out of your way to maybe like have uncomfortable conversations with people to do your own research, to really live and breathe the facts that this is an issue and your sense of building off the back of like this lived experience, which is, you know, very different from then, you know, the people that like often write into their decks, you know, the FinTech industry is a $65 billion a year and like, this is ready for, you know, don't get me wrong, right? I wouldn't say this. There are different types of investors and I've been accused of being very cold sometimes where I think when I speak with folks, will this company work without this lady or this guy? You know, is the problem still a problem? Is the solution still a solution that can grow into a bigger solution without this person? And the reason I think like this is I'm an adventure capital and eventually we want that company to either grow and acquire other companies or grow and become so profitable that it's a fantastic story and they, you know, do an IPO or they're required, you know, and I think that's what if you have a fund, you have expectations from your LPs, your investors, you know, to return that money by 358X, you know, depending on the fund. And so, so often people have put too much emphasis on the individual is leading the company and not necessarily the problem being solved or the product being developed. And some people want to strike that balance and it depends. So if it's early on in the company, then it's all but the founder, but it's also all about the code. I think we'll be lying if we say it wasn't. It's also all about the IP that's being developed and how unique that is. And also how agnostic it is, you know, can you plug it into systems that currently exist? Can you embed it in processes that currently exist? The can necessarily be disrupted on a grand scale. You know, I think that's one of the things that we're noticing now is that before it was all about the dream, you know, people back, people's dreams. But one thing I'm noticing, my own observation would be having just come back from Europe is there is a hesitancy around backing dreams now. People don't know what's happening in every industry that's been disrupted right now. And I think they really want to focus on the execution side of it, the tangible, okay, so this client has a problem. You can solve it. And let's say you solve that problem. Will they still have a problem next year? As in, can you still sell to them next year? Or is it just solved? And I think they're really good conversations to have. I think risk is finally getting the voice at the board level that it deserves. What do I mean by this is, you know, ownership of risk after implementing or embedding new technologies is something that an awful lot of the larger corporations or the incumbents being disrupted. I'm really worried about right now, but they're coming back to investors and asking the people who have invested in the startups. What do you think? Because you've done the risk analysis of this company. And I think that's fascinating to watch it kind of come full circle. But yeah, that's on that side of things. I should probably lean back into more Irish things. Forgive me. I think this is really helpful because, as we kind of lean back into the Irish things, these are kind of learnings and a lot of Irish fenders as they're kind of looking at funding in maybe out of the US. We'll need to kind of understand and to be prepared for it because I do feel like that, and we've had this conversation before, where it's like, Ireland is really great at the angel investments and that seed fund. but really like when it comes to then kind of going but I like going to the next level and rising up to a series B, series C, like there's a lot more institutional investors in the US and have very different expectations. So I think this is actually really interesting for them to think about as well of like what does the other side of the table look like when those conversations happen, hopefully happen for them, you know? Yeah, I think so. On the move side of it, I would say just back to if you're an Irish company, you're looking at Brody, I have to ask, am I willing to relocate to make my dream happen? And that's difficult depending on where you are in your life, you know? But also you might look at it and go, I mean, I'm guilty of just, you know, following every dream I have, you know, I think. And it's probably a nightmare for those around me, but I like to think I'm more grounded now than I ever was. I'm granted, I am in my, got late 40s and finally settled down. But, you know, there are, there are good, I wouldn't describe them as signposts along the way for startups in Ireland. Like I mentioned Enterprise Ireland, I would say Enterprise Ireland has come a long way in the last few years on its own journey and I think it's gotten off a lot of credibility on the world stage now and there's some interesting statistics about the amount of money they've invested in the last few years and where the money has gone and how diverse, I guess the people they've invested in, the different types of industries they're investing in, that's very impressive. I think it's kind of the next step where we'll have to lean into the international community, not necessarily just the diaspora, but lean on Enterprise Ireland to look beyond the Irish network, you know, and I think once you do that, you get a different type of credibility. It's good to lean on Irish people who have an Irish connection, of course, but I would consider that to be one of our stepping stones, you know, as kind of the road not taking, I think the road not taking has been the non-Irish piece and I think that's something we have to help these startups. I feel that response is usually all the time, just to care like if I get a phone call, I try and introduce people to someone I know on my own network and it's one of the things that, you know, no institution can really substitute for funder, well, it's great, but funder energy, one of the things that Enterprise Ireland does really well is it's like back in the 90s in Ireland, showing my age again, there was that quality standards, the queue that used to go onto things for guaranteed Irish, you know, but it was an air of credibility and it was a rubber stamp and it's kind of a reference that doesn't even need to be looked up because you wouldn't dare put that on your deck and send that abroad unless you actually had Enterprise Ireland backing, but also Enterprise Ireland because of the link to the Irish government, it's almost like the entire Ireland is stamped your your idea as real and investible. So that removes an off-load of red tape and the cobwebs and says, hey, look at these guys, so I think that's that's that's there now. It wasn't the case just a few years ago, but something has changed, you know, but I think it's no criticism of previous leadership, it's just Enterprise Ireland has gone under journey and I think that the spotlight is on Ireland as a country and Enterprise Ireland is realizing with the IDA as well that they've got to collaborate in a way that it's not just attracting foreign directive investment but exporting the best off as well. So that kind of it's I guess if I was in any way poetic, I'd say it's alchemy, but I think at some point the founder has got to realize that they are not just the storyteller, they're the recruiter, the operator, and they're also responsible for closing deals. And one of the things that you see often happen is hiring head of sales too early when you realize, no, your head of sales is still company, you know, I don't have the time or you know, you're actually head of marketing, your head of everything because it's you people are buying you. That's maybe the old school mentality of investing. I will say now things are changing a little bit on that side of things, but trust does matter. Yeah, it's funny. I know if you tech entrepreneurs like that, you know, set up in Silicon Valley, they were working at the Google's, Facebook's, the world, set up their own things. And one of the things I remember, one of them say to me clearly was like, he's like, I've never pivoted so quickly from one type of career into another because I was a tech guy, all my life. And then the moments I set up a company, I'm all of a sudden a sales guy. Like, and that was he was one of those people that like, you know, he kind of assumes that if he builds a great product, it would naturally just sell itself. And then he found himself kind of going, no, no, I spend 80% of my time selling now, you know. But you know what, the best sales people are in the billers. So, there's the reason I went back to college, you know, I went back to college in the evenings over here in the States back in like 15, 16, 17 just again, because I realized I was missing. I had all the banking product, had sales ahead, marketing, I had, you know, the anything to do with the movement of money and payments, I understood. But actually the coding side of life was to, I didn't like the fact that I had to lean on an engineer to come to the meeting. So I ended up going back and learning an awful lot more than I let on to believe that I know now. But what I do think is that, this is important. I think what we're looking for, and I say, we, the collective investor community that can come back and criticize this. But I do think that we're looking for clarity. You know, self-awareness. This is the things that I think it's through lack of coaching really. And often it's down to the Defender or the founding team just having that arrogance swagger that some time is needed. But it needs to be managed. They need an adult in the room. And that might be someone on their new board that's just been assigned or someone who's given them a little bit of angel investment to say, come here, this is your first rodeo. We do need to talk to you about this, this, and this. So one thing I was the first, are the founders coachable? You know, it's not just the lead singer, it's the bassist, it's the drummer, you know, it's the guitarist. Is the team right? You know, what is their speed of learning and how quickly can they pivot? Meaning if a customer says something goes bump in the eye, can they fix it quickly? And then can they prove to me that they can fix it quickly? Because that can result in releasing more funds if they're actually able to deliver. As in you might get a quick check in, but if we have access to your financials and we see that it's going very well, then they might end up getting access to more funds just through transparency. And I think that's something that I guess when I was younger, I would say it was always about the story, but the numbers are the numbers. I don't that from Aiden Brady, the chief country officer of City Bank in Dublin back in 2007, he would just say the numbers are the numbers. And I hated that because you couldn't fudge it was just like these numbers. And even still now, I found myself saying that sentence to my head, the numbers are the numbers. So there'd be the green flags that I was talking about the clarity and, you know, co-chibility. The red flags are something that, if you can't explain your own business, simply, you know, then there's a problem. So if I leave a meeting confused, that's usually the answer. You know, it's not because I do read a deck before I go in from confused. I wonder why is this being given to me? I will have some questions and I've still don't understand it, then I don't think it's going to be me. And I try and talk very simple English as you can see from this chat. One thing I say, another red flag is, and I heard this from someone else the other day, I was in New York and they were telling me that they've come across a lot of startups who are obsessed with the valuation too early. You know, and it's just pressure for people around them or they themselves keep talking how much their companies worth are, you know, asking how much they think that it's worth. And it's just kind of a red flag for someone else, you know. When I mentioned coachability as a green flag, I guess the flip side of that would be being defensive. of under pressure, you know, and rather than raising your hand. Because if you invested someone, right, one of the great things about a good investor is that they would help you, you know, because they've just given money. They don't want to see that money burn. So raise your hand and say, we need help or sinking or, you know, we need help with our marketing or go to market. Do you know anyone or we need new clients in your geography? Can you help? That's a real board member, by the way. That's a real investor. So yeah, if it's somebody that comes to you who has a great idea, like can explain it clearly, but you're kind of feeling like, oh, they just need a little bit of support. It's like, they're. There's nothing wrong with them. That's a good thing. Yeah. But if you're somebody that has a great idea, but then comes in and goes, no, no, I can do this and I alone can do this, but you're kind of like, I don't think you can. That's then red flag. Yeah, I. Yeah, I think as a result of this is just another observation, but you know, vibe coding, it seems to be the phrase of the last two years. As a result of my observation, again, my own observation here is that anyone. I think it was anthropic, except that founders said, you know, there would be a billion-dollar company, just one person. And that has resulted in an awful lot of curiosity, which is great for the industry. It's also resulted in an awful lot of slaps being created. I mean, people building companies that are solving nothing, you know, they're building technologies that are looking for problems again, which I thought we were behind, but we're back there again, where apps are being stood up in 24 hours and shared on YouTube and shared on whatever the new platform is. But there were no clicks. There's no downloads. There's no other people wondering what else can they do, so they sign up to more and more of these platforms to teach them how to do it. And you're realizing that that's just. we're in that bubble at the moment of noise, and that's fine. But I actually believe in maybe this is going to come back to me. I think this is why Irish founders can win. And because, you know, we've always produced always outward-looking people, you know? And it's because the size of our domestic market has forced us to look out always. It's forced us to be building things with the idea immediately of how can I make this fit for the world? And I think that's quite unique. And I think it's because we're on an island, you know? And by the way, my friends back home will cringe the way I'm talking and saying the island. It's true. It's just, you know, there's five million. is it five million more? Six, seven? There's a few million people on the island, but if you're creating a product and there's a limited industry in the field that you're trying to solve the problem for, you're going to have to be thinking about where next. And I think that where next is not just a future consideration on a roadmap, it's actually built into your plan, you know? So being a straw, I would say a small country, is a strategic advantage. I think that's what I would think right now anyway. And, you know, we've covered off a lot today in regards to my, you know, the investor sign of the table. I think what you've just kind of touched on there is really the unique aspect of being an Irish company, like looking not just to the US, but looking globally in like the opportunities. And earlier you mentioned, you know, this evolution that's kind of happened, that, you know, there is a greater support of speaking about, like, supporting Irish businesses going internationally. And even like, you know, I'm just kind of thinking about this from living in the DC area, you do hear it as well, the tone of language from even the, the embassy here has gone from isn't it great that Ireland has a connection to the US to Ireland is the fifth biggest investor in the US, you know, it's very much a, a wonderful see this kind of this change and attitude of like, we're not just young dogs anymore, we're at the table and we're, we're leaning in. So thinking about it's like what's ahead and what excites you most about the opportunity for Irish businesses at a global scale right now. Is there anything else that you're kind of looking at going, this is, this is something that's going to take off or this is something that's truly special right now. That's a good question. Just before we dive into it, I will say that whoever positioned Ireland on the rebranding or repositioning of saying we're the fifth largest investor in America, which I saw on T-Shucks say on St. Patrick's Day in the Oval Office, which did raise an eyebrow and make everyone go, wow, it was a real, wow moment and also live relief. I will say that it was a fantastic marketing, you know, because you know, what is marketing, the creation of a need that was never there before and we really announced to the world that you need us, you know, and I think it wasn't just American notice that it was shared across the world in in news stories. So I was a, that was brilliant, whoever, whoever wrote that, brilliant kudos. And then what am I excited about for Irish companies, I think, you know, the idea, you did a great job at positioning Ireland, looking at our educated workforce. I still think that rings true, you know, and I think in conjunction with the government, they really highlighted, you know, our geographic location, the languages side of life as well. The tax breaks side of life in Ireland is something that is coming under increasing scrutiny. And I think it's imperative that we hold on to that as much as we can. But we need to have other differential advantages. So if I'm a startup, I think I'd be optimistic about the fact that, you know, my country's got my back. I think more needs to be done, maybe be on funding the likes of a, a digital Irish type platform or a, you know, in other countries as well, to really build up something that's more tangible and real. So that people know that it's there afterwards. And also, if I'm a startup, I think, to be truly optimistic, I'm going to need to understand who with the key stakeholders in every country, you know, I got a need to know who is the person when I land, I talk to who, you know, and by the way, this is a big business opportunity. Of course, it is for someone to go and create it. I think digital Irish is doing a great job there. But if I'm in the startup space, I think being in construction tech is a huge opportunity. There's going to be a rebuild across Europe, across the Middle East, here in the United States. I think construction tech around trade finance, project management, really leaning into small-language models there is a big opportunity. And I think biotech as well, given the educated workforce and experienced workforce of working for big farmer in Ireland. There's enough a lot of people who have years of experience who with the right nurturing and encouragement could set up their own complementary businesses. And some of them are doing it already. And it's a case of saying, how do you flex a little bit now with backing to go beyond the walls of Ireland? And I think that's something that we, we, as Irish people, could be really pushing for. I was speaking recently about our curriculums. One of the things, if you look at the countries that are pouring money in, it's the Middle East right now, education, and changing curriculums and educated people on AI and encouraging people to really lean into understanding. Not necessarily proactively using AI in their day to day, but actually understanding it now. And at a school side of life introducing technology earlier. And I think Ireland, you know, we started that back in 1996. And it's my own hometown when the NS Information Age. And I remember this is the future, you know, we all got computers and things like that. But since then there was a lag, you know, there just was a in the education side of things. But I do think with a refocus and a redistribution, not just in Dublin, but around the country. Startups can actually, you know, thrive in places like Galway, Claire and Cork and Donnie Gal and the likes. And these are just examples, but they need the like, the spotlight to be shown on them a little bit more. And I think the media has a role to play in that as well. But it does sound like the stakeholders, as I mentioned, it's becoming clear with the right signposting and the president, IDA, the embassies. But I do think there needs to be a little bit more on a landing package for a startup that maybe hasn't gone through. who went to Barzardin, you know, and hasn't got funding, but has a good idea. They need to know that there's a beacon of light in a foreign country of choice. But to do it, you know, if you fail to prepare, you prefer to fail, that's not only phrase. I think the resources are there. It's not all going to be in chat GPT. It's not all going to be in this desktop research. You will need to talk to people who've been there done that. And the one thing it was is there are enough a lot of people who just want to help, you know. That's definitely what we see with the digital Irish community anyway. There's a lot of people that they want to support. They want open doors. They want to be somebody that connects others. But yeah, I feel like, you know, it's one thing that we talk about a lot. It's like, how do we turn this from the kind of the ad hoc of like, hey, like talk to this guy because he knows somebody to an actual bit more of like an operational process where it's like now, like when you go abroad, there's a strategy in place. There is a, there's a soft landing wherever you go, you know. Yeah, I think Ireland as a country is in an interesting position right now in the global economic climate. I think we're small enough to stay adaptable. We're globally connected to kind of people say we punch above our weight. I hate that phrase, but you know, I think founders who tend to do well internationally. This is again, an observation is, are those who stay curious, stay grounded. They're willing to maybe adapt. Some people said pivot, but pivot means complete change in my opinion. But actually, they're willing to tweak a few things along the way or not win everything, you know. So many, they might start off in one particular area. They realize that the client only wants a piece of that puzzle and that's okay. But then once you realize that four clients only want that piece, you can actually go, hey guys, we should stop all the development on the new stuff and just sell this so we can get revenue in the door, you know. Because one of the things that you'll realize quickly, if you've received money, anyone at all, there's an expectation to return that money. And honestly, I think technology, as we're seeing it today, it's changing rapidly. And we're talking at a speed like the world has never seen before. And as a result, then, given the global climate, given, you know, there are wars taking place, oil prices, gas prices going up, electricity prices going up. There's a lot of uncertainty. But the one thing that we're really good at is trust and relationships. And I still think that they will compound over time. If you're stuck into the right network, really plugged in, you do need ambassadors for your startup, you know, you do need people willing to open a certain door for you and welcome you to a bigger table and things like that. It all sounds again, airy fairy, but it's not. You do need help. And a lot of startup people, the reason they went to startups is they're frustrated with the bigger organizations and they want to go to a loan. And I think you'll go so much faster if you go with others, you know, or at least you tap into someone who's made the same mistakes or made mistakes, you don't know about. The bit that I always like to finish with when I'm talking to startups is that an overnight success is probably unrealistic. But if you're willing to, and you have to ask yourself this, am I willing to give this idea 10 years of my life? And if you do that quietly and persistently, then you will see a result. It might not be the giant windfall of cash that a lot of people get into startups for, you know, but a lot of people are happy with solving a real problem and having enough, you know, I think that's not the story they want to hear in America. That's not the story they want to hear if you're seeking investment. So you've got to strike that balance and ask yourself, is the American dream all it's cracked up to be? Because if you're solving a problem that is a global problem, then yes, come to America. You can certainly make it here and it sounds so cheesy, but it's so true, you know, if someone has the same problem in Ireland that they have over here, which is probably true, then you can solve it just as good as anyone else over here. I love that. I think that's a great spot to come because if that is the last piece of advice that you give to defenders, that's a great way to cleanse our podcast about, you know, are you willing to give this 10 years? And, you know, I'll close with like one last question to you because, you know, obviously, you are also involved in blockchain Ireland. You're kind of going back and forth to Ireland all the time to kind of not only kind of lean in with your own expertise, but you're advising and you're helping others. So if folks are interested in learning more about you, the work that you do, blockchain Ireland and other areas that you're involved in, how could they find out more? Well, it's funny. I happened to take down my website today, so that's under construction allateland.io. But please do get in contact with me, drop me a email, [email protected], I think if I'm up to miss you, if you'll see it online. But I will be in Dublin at the end of May, and please drop me a message on LinkedIn. Connect with me on LinkedIn. Drop me a message. I'll be there for a week and in the West Coast as well. So be great to do that. That's next time. And thank you again, Michael for joining us and sharing all of these insights. I think there's a lot of learning here, but just really appreciate you taking it the time. Grab me the magnet. Stop. And that is it for today's episode. A massive thank you to Michael O'Loughlin for joining us on the podcast. So just great insights and straight talking for Irish founders that they need before they make it move internationally. So for anyone listening who wants to follow Michael's work or reach out, we'll have his details in the show notes. If you're an Irish founder navigating the US or global markets, I hope this gave you a clearer picture of how you can prepare and what to be ready for. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with somebody in your network who needs to hear it. Subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. And until next time, son, go follow. (upbeat music)